Virat Kohli vs AB de Villiers - Who is the better Test batsman?

[Savage]

That Aus team had 1 good bowler in Gillespie, then they had Lee who wasn't great in Tests and some Brad Williams guy who was plain rubbish. Dravid has that one good tour of Aus, and one good teat in SA, that's it for those 2 countries

But only Mcgrath was missing

 

[WengerOut]

That Aus team had 1 good bowler in Gillespie, then they had Lee who wasn't great in Tests and some Brad Williams guy who was plain rubbish. Dravid has that one good tour of Aus, and one good teat in SA, that's it for those 2 countries

By that logic , the Amlas and Kallis have to only deal with Kumble in India

 

[Ab Fan]

Wow this is getting embarrassing.

You don't rate dravid performance in Australia highly but somehow you rate Kallis performance in India 2000.

That Indian team was good but inconsistent.India became much better side after Australia 2001 series at home.That series was iconic in which India fought back after the 1st test loss and win the series.They not only win the series but also broke the 17 consecutive winning streak of Australia.This is one of the major reason why Kolkata match is such an iconic moment for India.

lee played in 2 of the 4 matches.He averaged 59.50 with economy of 4.72.That's a pathetic performance.

Let us analyze some of Kallis greatest performance with the bat to know how much a match-winner he was:-

1) 173* in India( supporting role to Amla who played 253 and drew the series in India)

2) 182 vs England( 3rd hundred of that inning on a patta where Amla got 300 and Smith also got a 100 and was a support inning to inflate the stats)

3) 136* in India( again not the standout inning of SA lineup, AB scored a 217)

4) Only one double hundred i.e. against SL at home when they were nothing attack.

5) While between 1995-2007, JH Kallis was SA's best and main batsmen, SA kept getting thrased home and away against Australia. Talk about match winner.

Now take a look at two of the biggest achievements of SA:-

2008 tour to Aus- Avgs 37
2008 tour to Eng- Avgs 14

None of his great chases have come in 4th innings either.

 

[Hitman]

This is how Aussies like Rodney Hogg and Keith Stackpole view Kallis

http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/kallis-is-a-selfish-batsman-a-boring-bowler/396205/

 

[Savage]

That Aus team had 1 good bowler in Gillespie, then they had Lee who wasn't great in Tests and some Brad Williams guy who was plain rubbish. Dravid has that one good tour of Aus, and one good teat in SA, that's it for those 2 countries

That attack was still a very good attack.India played Nikhil chopra(Never heard of him before) and M Kartik in the series where Kallis won MOS.

 

[Savage]

Let us analyze some of Kallis greatest performance with the bat to know how much a match-winner he was:-

1) 173* in India( supporting role to Amla who played 253 and drew the series in India)

2) 182 vs England( 3rd hundred of that inning on a patta where Amla got 300 and Smith also got a 100 and was a support inning to inflate the stats)

3) 136* in India( again not the standout inning of SA lineup, AB scored a 217)

4) Only one double hundred i.e. against SL at home when they were nothing attack.

5) While between 1995-2007, JH Kallis was SA's best and main batsmen, SA kept getting thrased home and away against Australia. Talk about match winner.

Now take a look at two of the biggest achievements of SA:-

2008 tour to Aus- Avgs 37
2008 tour to Eng- Avgs 14

Exactly!.He rarely dominated best attacks in the world.I will take Tendulkar,Lara,Ponting and Dravid anyday over Kallis.

 

[Ab Fan]

That attack was still a very good attack.India played Nikhil chopra(Never heard of him before) and M Kartik in the series where Kallis won MOS.

Kallis over his career played supporting roles mostly with the bat.He has only one great inning over his career- 100 while drawing a Match in Australia against McGrath and Warne.

 

[Ab Fan]

Exactly!.He rarely dominated best attacks in the world.I will take Tendulkar,Lara,Ponting and Dravid anyday over Kallis.

Yes but he is still regarded by the world as ATG. You Know why? Because of being a run-machine with the bat. If we start looking at impact, Kallis and Pollock won't even be ATGs.

Pollock had what 16 5-fers over 110 tests match career. Good for supporting roles only
. Even Kapil has 23 over slightly more matches.

 

[Adijazz1706]

That attack was still a very good attack.India played Nikhil chopra(Never heard of him before) and M Kartik in the series where Kallis won MOS.

Kallis is not and never was an impact player, his tuk tuk made the 99 SF chase as tough as it was. Abfan made some great points about Kallis above

 

[Hitman]

Kallis is not and never was an impact player, his tuk tuk made the 99 SF chase as tough as it was. Abfan made some great points about Kallis above

Bias aside, that knock is the worst ODI knock I have ever seen, keeping in mind how important that match was.

 

[soso_killer]

Did they have a great chance to win ? Were they in a good position? Did they allow the tailenders of all batsmen to increase the lead? Did they collectively bottle in second innings?


BTW , Ind drew a series in SA with Tendulkar also scoring in the decider. I know you will come with another weird logic.

My question has nnot been answered though. Didi South Africa lose that series? Yes or No?
Has India ever won a Test series in South Africa. The answer to these questions should put into context of the 2007 series.

 

[soso_killer]

You can live in ur own bubble where the softies like Kallis is great . Even if he scores 5 runs, that will be termed as great. I can gurantee that majority of people wont be accepting ur weird logic. When Kallis scores a 90 in join with 3 or 4 other great performances by others , it is termed as match winning when the reality was , Kirtsen was the guy who helped most. I like the way you are dodging the Kanpur test. Bravo !!!

Softy that has won and saved matches for his team in Australia, India, England, Pakistan and tough bowling attacks like Ambrose. Good luck with that.

 

[Savage]

Kallis is not and never was an impact player, his tuk tuk made the 99 SF chase as tough as it was. Abfan made some great points about Kallis above

Agree.Kallis Brainfade in 2007WC semi against Australia was also one of the reason for their loss.No bowler would ever be threatened by Kallis.

Dravid didn't face difficult attack but he still outperformed other batsmens like Sachin,Ponting etc.Australian batsmen didn't face ATG attack either in that series.

 

[Ab Fan]

While Kallis contributed in series victory in India in 90s and Pakistan in 2007 when they were not even in top5 teams, he went missing all his career against Australia.

While against top quality attacks, SRT and Lara were standouts while when it comes to changing the game in no matter, Ponting was right up there. Dravid was the best under chips.

Kallis was like nowhere near.

1) Poor record against top quality attacks.

2) Impactless runs with no iconic inning while during the same time, Smith was winning series for fun in Australia and England(twice he won there with contribution from bat).

3) Accumulator and boring to watch.

 

[WengerOut]

My question has nnot been answered though. Didi South Africa lose that series? Yes or No?
Has India ever won a Test series in South Africa. The answer to these questions should put into context of the 2007 series.

Have Amla , Kallis helped win series in India? No. Kallis 2000 exploits were supporting one so please. And he has no won in SL and Aus.

 

[WengerOut]

Softy that has won and saved matches for his team in Australia, India, England, Pakistan and tough bowling attacks like Ambrose. Good luck with that.

We are talking in the context of series , not matches. It is your logic not mine and i dont believe in it either.And our batsmen have won matches in SA , Aus , Eng , NZ, Pak, SL etc.

 

[soso_killer]

In 2007 SA was #5 in the rankings, Pakistan 3.
In 2000 India had 4 players in the top 20.
In 2007 SA had two players in the top 20.

 

[Ab Fan]

Let us analyze some of Kallis greatest performance with the bat to know how much a match-winner he was:-

1) 173* in India( supporting role to Amla who played 253 and drew the series in India)

2) 182 vs England( 3rd hundred of that inning on a patta where Amla got 300 and Smith also got a 100 and was a support inning to inflate the stats)

3) 136* in India( again not the standout inning of SA lineup, AB scored a 217)

4) Only one double hundred i.e. against SL at home when they were nothing attack.

5) While between 1995-2007, JH Kallis was SA's best and main batsmen, SA kept getting thrased home and away against Australia. Talk about match winner.

Now take a look at two of the biggest achievements of SA:-

2008 tour to Aus- Avgs 37
2008 tour to Eng- Avgs 14

None of his great chases have come in 4th innings either.

He was also a failure in 2012 tour to England except one inning- that 182 which he made after Smith and Amla had already done hard work and he smashed against tired bowlers on what was the phatta given by ECB to limit the danger of Steyn.

He had no impact in 2012 tour to Australia victory either. AB-Faf saved the test in Adelaide and then Amla took the game away in final test with AB.

Also,in 2008 and 2010 tour to India barring one match where he played supporting roles to Amla and AB who got double hundreds, he scored nothing in other innings.

2008 tour to India:- Avgs 36 with 1 hundred which wasn't the standout inning. Steyn demolished them with the bowl first up.

2010 tour to India:- He scored 203 runs out of which 173 was scored in supporting role to Amla's 253 in one inning.

He has no impact in any series win during SA peak phase between 2006-2014 except one against Pakistan in 2007 when they were nothing side.

 

[Ab Fan]

ICC rankings dont mean anything. According to ICC ranking, AB was no.1 ranked test batsmen in year end ranking of 2014 and 2015 which is laughworthy because his test career has started only in 2018.

 

[BreadPakoda]

A discussion about ABD getting deflected to Kallis, Amla etc. typifies the role ABD has mostly played in his career. Great talent, but someone who would rather play 4 or 5 down as a support batsman and let youngsters and other batsmen take the center stage.

In this 5-page discussion there was always a probability of Graham Pollock, Cronje, Kallis, Hashim and even a Young Markram to take center stage to protect ABD.

 

[soso_killer]

We are talking in the context of series , not matches. It is your logic not mine and i dont believe in it either.And our batsmen have won matches in SA , Aus , Eng , NZ, Pak, SL etc.

Exactly, context of the series. 182* England never recovered, statsguru doesn't have a column for that.
They mentally disintegrated.
Made a brilliant 50 in Australia with a side strain to save a Test and series, ironically he was a leader to Faf who was able to express himself than he was with AB who was a bit tentative. Was there once again when his team was chasing 414. He ensured there was no implosion. Again stats won't show that.
He was brilliant team player and heck of a match winner. He will be far happier with his Test career than Tendulkar or good for nothing Lara who destroyed his country. Who doesn't want to win a Test series in Australia?
Has stood up to the likes of Warne and McGrath in their backyard as well. But I don't rate performances where the team achieves nothing in the grand scheme of things. The team must always come first, you're not playing for yourself. 103*/118*? in the 2nd Test in 97 would have been bigger had SA won the Third test though. Dropped too many catches and allowed Australia to draw that match and take the series 1-0. Pollock was brilliant in that match.

 

[Adijazz1706]

Bias aside, that knock is the worst ODI knock I have ever seen, keeping in mind how important that match was.

Imran's 44 of 93 and Sunny scoring 36 were worse

 

[WengerOut]

Exactly, context of the series. 182* England never recovered, statsguru doesn't have a column for that.
They mentally disintegrated.
Made a brilliant 50 in Australia with a side strain to save a Test and series, ironically he was a leader to Faf who was able to express himself than he was with AB who was a bit tentative. Was there once again when his team was chasing 414. He ensured there was no implosion. Again stats won't show that.
He was brilliant team player and heck of a match winner. He will be far happier with his Test career than Tendulkar or good for nothing Lara who destroyed his country. Who doesn't want to win a Test series in Australia?
Has stood up to the likes of Warne and McGrath in their backyard as well. But I don't rate performances where the team achieves nothing in the grand scheme of things. The team must always come first, you're not playing for yourself. 103*/118*? in the 2nd Test in 97 would have been bigger had SA won the Third test though. Dropped too many catches and allowed Australia to draw that match and take the series 1-0. Pollock was brilliant in that match.

Something good happening in the grand scheme of things cannot be predicted by a batsman during the start of a series. So if he scores at the start , that too is a great knock when the series is alive. If a guy failed in a ramdom decider , it is still a test match where he failed. Can't term it as bottling.

If Eng never recovered , it was because at the other end there was a damn good SA team. England would have different attitude if it was a mediocre India at the other end. They know India can be easily tamed. In between this mediocrity, some flashes of greatness is what Sachin and Dravid gave for us. They won't be able to do it always. They have scored when the series is alive in away series. Just because they did not score in a random decider does not mean they are bottlers. That is why i brought Kanpur 2008. A new generation of SA had a chance to win on easy circumstances , but they bottled. Does not mean they are bottlers generally.

 

[Hitman]

Imran's 44 of 93 and Sunny scoring 36 were worse

Haven't seen them. I spoke of knocks I've seen.

 

[soso_killer]

Wow this is getting embarrassing.

You don't rate dravid performance in Australia highly but somehow you rate Kallis performance in India 2000.

That Indian team was good but inconsistent.India became much better side after Australia 2001 series at home.That series was iconic in which India fought back after the 1st test loss and win the series.They not only win the series but also broke the 17 consecutive winning streak of Australia.This is one of the major reason why Kolkata match is such an iconic moment for India.

lee played in 2 of the 4 matches.He averaged 59.50 with economy of 4.72.That's a pathetic performance.

Oh most definitely, there is no faffing about that.
It is not about scoring meaningless runs. I'm sure we could go on statsguru and find a least of players with 50 to 60 plus averages. However if we filter out players who won over there, that list becomes significantly narrow.

Even the great Australian team labelled India the final frontier. They struggled there with a great team.
Kallis went there with inferior teams and won, and won tour after tour, if SA wasn't winning a series they were drawing. Always kept us competitive in that country. We have won more matches in India than Australia has even though they had a great team for much of the 90's and 2000's. We have Kallis to thank for that. South Africa severely misses him. What a performer, stubborn goat.

(And Lee has a decent record against India in Australia, can't judge a player when he did not finish the series. Steyn after the first two Tests in Australia 2012 averaged 60+ EC 3.5. Pathetic bowler.)

 

[soso_killer]

Bias aside, that knock is the worst ODI knock I have ever seen, keeping in mind how important that match was.

Kallis was a pathetic ODI palyer. He belongs in along list of bottle alongside AB.
Who's defending him?

 

[soso_killer]

Something good happening in the grand scheme of things cannot be predicted by a batsman during the start of a series. So if he scores at the start , that too is a great knock when the series is alive. If a guy failed in a ramdom decider , it is still a test match where he failed. Can't term it as bottling.

If Eng never recovered , it was because at the other end there was a damn good SA team. England would have different attitude if it was a mediocre India at the other end. They know India can be easily tamed. In between this mediocrity, some flashes of greatness is what Sachin and Dravid gave for us. They won't be able to do it always. They have scored when the series is alive in away series. Just because they did not score in a random decider does not mean they are bottlers. That is why i brought Kanpur 2008. A new generation of SA had a chance to win on easy circumstances , but they bottled. Does not mean they are bottlers generally.

South Africa won that series as a result of that knock. Did he win it on his own? No. The text gate is a result of that. England never recovered. There was plenty of chest thumping prior to that tour. Once SA thrashed out the biggest winning margin of all time, their media turned on them and realized what a juggernaut of a task it will be to come back in that series.

India was a damn good team too, more than we care to give them credit for. It's the myth I want to bust here. India was no West Indies, they were a damn good team, that needs to be acknowledged. The batsmen along with the bowlers let that team down. You don't strangle a great Australian team, irrespective of home conditions and be entirely useless as soon as you step outside. I refuse to accept that. I hold Dravid and Tendulkar personally responsible.

 

[WengerOut]

South Africa won that series as a result of that knock. Did he win it on his own? No. The text gate is a result of that. England never recovered. There was plenty of chest thumping prior to that tour. Once SA thrashed out the biggest winning margin of all time, their media turned on them and realized what a juggernaut of a task it will be to come back in that series.

India was a damn good team too, more than we care to give them credit for. It's the myth I want to bust here. India was no West Indies, they were a damn good team, that needs to be acknowledged. The batsmen along with the bowlers let that team down. You don't strangle a great Australian team, irrespective of home conditions and be entirely useless as soon as you step outside. I refuse to accept that. I hold Dravid and Tendulkar personally responsible.

India were mediocre away . Couple of players , and that too batsmen were the only truly all condition players. So matter how much fight a team has , skillwise the team were not upto the mark. There is only that much couple of players can do. The opponents know that as well. If there were 20 series away , India would only have 1 opportunity to win that . You can blame that on the batsmen if they fail to take that opportunity. The SA team would have atleast 10 chances . So it is relatively high chance for a player to succeed.

 

[SLcric123]

Oh most definitely, there is no faffing about that.
It is not about scoring meaningless runs. I'm sure we could go on statsguru and find a least of players with 50 to 60 plus averages. However if we filter out players who won over there, that list becomes significantly narrow.

Even the great Australian team labelled India the final frontier. They struggled there with a great team.
Kallis went there with inferior teams and won, and won tour after tour, if SA wasn't winning a series they were drawing. Always kept us competitive in that country. We have won more matches in India than Australia has even though they had a great team for much of the 90's and 2000's. We have Kallis to thank for that. South Africa severely misses him. What a performer, stubborn goat.

(And Lee has a decent record against India in Australia, can't judge a player when he did not finish the series. Steyn after the first two Tests in Australia 2012 averaged 60+ EC 3.5. Pathetic bowler.)

India in 2001 wasn't same as one which Kallis won. This was led by Ganguly.

 

[Savage]

And Lee has a decent record against India in Australia, can't judge a player when he did not finish the series.

Another failed Attempt.

Ofcourse you can.Kohli averaged 9.2 against Australia at Home.He played only 5 out of his 8 possible innings and during the 5th inning he was injured.This was By Far Kohli's Worst series performance at home.Both Lee and Kohli were Pathetic in their respective Home series.

 

[Savage]

India in 2001 wasn't same as one which Kallis won. This was led by Ganguly.

Nah That 2000 Indian side was the greatest ever because Kallis won the MOS.I'm sure you have heard of ATG Spinners like Nikhil chopra and Murali Kartik.

Murali Kartik is much better than Muralitharan.

 

[Ab Fan]

Nah That 2000 Indian side was the greatest ever because Kallis won the MOS.I'm sure you have heard of ATG Spinners like Nikhil chopra and Murali Kartik.

Murali Kartik is much better than Muralitharan.

Fair to say that Kallis wasn't an ATG because SA were nothing more than minnow bashers till 2007(got thrased by Aus home and away and even England won in 2004 in their backyard) and since 2008, he hasn't played any standout role in any major series win SA had( 2008 and 2012 tour to Australia and England as well as 2008 and 2010 tour to India and also UAE 2014).

 

[Hitman]

Nah That 2000 Indian side was the greatest ever because Kallis won the MOS.I'm sure you have heard of ATG Spinners like Nikhil chopra and Murali Kartik.

Murali Kartik is much better than Muralitharan.

The 95 he scored in the 2nd Test came off 359 balls at an SR of 26.46 )

And the bowlers who bowled were Javagal Srinath, Anil Kumble, Nikhil Chopra, Murali Karthik, Sachin Tendulkar, Sourav Ganguly and Mohammad Kaif.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...-2nd-test-south-africa-tour-of-india-1999-00/


In the 1st Test, he scored 5 and 36*, and that 36* came off 129 balls at an SR of 27.90

 

[Ab Fan]

The 95 he scored in the 2nd Test came off 359 balls at an SR of 26.46 )

And the bowlers who bowled were were Javagal Srinath, Anil Kumble, Nikhil Chopra, Murali Karthik, Sachin Tendulkar, Sourav Ganguly and Mohammad Kaif

And according to some logic, the great Australian team of 2001 lost to this team while Kallis single-handedly won them against the same team .

 

[Hitman]

And according to some logic, the great Australian team of 2001 lost to this team while Kallis single-handedly won them against the same team .

Harbhajan didn't even play in that SA series, and he absolutely bamboozled Australia in 2001. He was the main reason why the Aussies lost. The Indian team for the series against SA was almost as good as the Indian team during the 90's.

 

[Ab Fan]

Harbhajan didn't even play in that SA series, and he absolutely bamboozled Australia in 2001. He was the main reason why the Aussies lost.

VVS wasn't there either who played greatest inning in that series.

 

[WengerOut]

Meanwhile Brad Haddin told this about Rabada

"He's very impressive. For someone so young, the smarts he has the with ball in his hand, knowing when to go up and down gears... Looking from the sidelines, it looks like he really understands how to set up a batsman. For someone so young that's quite impressive. I thought the spell in the second innings [in Port Elizabeth] to go after [David] Warner and the openers - that was a pretty placid wicket, and from where I was sitting that was some pretty hostile bowling. He took it on himself there to get the big wicket of Davey. He is impressive. It's disappointing for the game that he's not playing, but from our point of view it's a bonus because he is a class act. It was a conscious effort [by Rabada] to go hard at him and it was a good ball that got him [Warner] in the end.

"Everyone needs to take a step back. Let's start playing cricket more on skill and less on emotion. Both sides have been guilty of things they're probably not proud of over the last two Test matches. But we're 1-1, it's time to play some cricket on skill and leave that other stuff to the side. It's disappointing for Rabada. I know the South Africans, playing us, I've heard them say a couple of times this is their big series, and now he's got to sit back and watch what's going on out there. It will be interesting to see how he comes back after that, because he'll be hurting, no doubt, over the next couple of Test matches."

Just reinforces my view. So much for being a tough wicket.