Virat Kohli vs AB de Villiers - Who is the better Test batsman?

[Bilal7]

Kohli's 153 can arguably be said to be a better innings because it was an away innings, against a fantastic attack, on a similar pitch. It boggles my mind that a near-identical innings that was played only 2 months ago is forgotten by you.

You can also talk about his 104 vs SL, or his 81 at Vizhag vs England (the same match where he scored a 167), but let's just stick to the 153 in a series where he outscored every single batsman - including an AbD who'd claimed to be in the form of his life.

No, Kohli's 150-odd is not a superior innings because as Morne Morkel and a bunch of other players and experts put it, the conditions in that game were very "Asian" and "subcontinental". As in it was quite simple to face the pacers and South Africa do not have a high-quality spinner. Had he scored a 150 in the first or third tests, it would have been an incredible innings.

His Adelaide innings, once again, came on a pitch where the biggest threat was the spinner. And then he choked in the end by holing out, IIRC. Good innings but not good enough. I haven't watched the other two innings you're talking about but they are not widely spoken of.

Kohli fans are comparing Kohli to AB on current form.

Non-kohli fans are comparing their overall career.

Obviously, overall career, AB wins while on current form, it is Kohli.

What is current form? If current means this year, then ABD is still pretty far ahead.

 

[Bilal7]

South Africa did batted first in that test and still couldn't capitalize as they were bowled out for just 214 runs.In response,India were already 80/0.

I said Mohali and Nagpur, which were 'win toss, win match' pitches.

 

[Savage]

I said Mohali and Nagpur, which were 'win toss, win match' pitches.

But I didn't mention those two matches.India did have the advantage of batting first just like SA had in Bangalore but they couldn't capitalize.

 

[Bilal7]

Hostile pitches? lol Dude SA pitches are where he grew up. When they play against AUstralia they serve a slow pitch to them like in the last test. One of the slowest pitch. Moment Starc pitched the ball, it took ages to get to batsman. I even registered in the commentary thread. SA vs Australia is like India vs Srilanka. You play similar cricket ball, on similar pitches, used similar attacks. You should hardly have any issues facing each other. Australia rarely produced great swing bowlers in the last decade of so. I still remember how Sreesanth got him caught behind repeatedly. Sreesanth has dismissed ABDV 5 times. out of which 4 times caught behind. He is not as efficient player against genuine swing bowling as you seem to suggest.

Just because an Engineering student is used to Physics does not it an easy subject to study. South Africa have the toughest batting conditions in the world. This is a fact that cannot be denied.

You need to think straight. I will give you a chance to fix this laughable post because Australia is miles better than Sri Lanka. If Sri Lanka had three world-class spinners in their side, then perhaps the comparison could be warranted. Besides, the point about South Africa having the toughest batting conditions still stands.

 

[Bilal7]

But I didn't mention those two matches.India did have the advantage of batting first just like SA had in Bangalore but they couldn't capitalize.

Bangalore was not a 'win toss, win match' pitch, however. It was actually beneficial to bowl first given the cloud cover.

 

[Savage]

Bangalore was not a 'win toss, win match' pitch, however. It was actually beneficial to bowl first given the cloud cover.

Ashwin and jadeja took 4 wickets each in that SA innings.India had the advantage of batting first in mohali and Nagpur just like SA had advantage in centurian(2nd test) against India recently.

 

[SLcric123]

Outstanding innings, easily one of his finest.

This is the Kohli era, but all formats considered, de Villiers has the strongest claim of being the second best batsman of this decade. Smith runs him close, and he is better than him in Tests, but de Villiers is way ahead of him in Limited Overs.

And what about Amla, Root and Williamson?

 

[Bilal7]

Ashwin and jadeja took 4 wickets each in that SA innings.India had the advantage of batting first in mohali and Nagpur just like SA had advantage in centurian(2nd test) against India recently.

Once again, not a 'win toss, win match' pitch. Batting first is highly beneficial on rank turners. The same advantage is not found on regular wickets.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Kohli fans are comparing Kohli to AB on current form.

Non-kohli fans are comparing their overall career.

Obviously, overall career, AB wins while on current form, it is Kohli.

I don't say Kohli is better. But saying they are "not even comparable" is ridiculous. It is not like we are comparing UmarAkmal and Kohli.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Just because an Engineering student is used to Physics does not it an easy subject to study. South Africa have the toughest batting conditions in the world. This is a fact that cannot be denied.

You need to think straight. I will give you a chance to fix this laughable post because Australia is miles better than Sri Lanka. If Sri Lanka had three world-class spinners in their side, then perhaps the comparison could be warranted. Besides, the point about South Africa having the toughest batting conditions still stands.

No. WHere do you think they chased down 438 runs? They can offer batting pitches as well. Depending on the team that tours they give the pitch they want. WHen their batting was good with Kallis, Smith during the transiton of Australia they gave some fast pitcehs even then they could not win the series.

 

[Bilal7]

I don't say Kohli is better. But saying they are "not even comparable" is ridiculous. It is not like we are comparing UmarAkmal and Kohli.

Then stop arguing about it. AB de Villiers is a better test batsman than Virat Kohli. Even Kohli's fans agree. No point nitpicking over little things when everyone agrees on the bigger picture.

 

[Bilal7]

No. WHere do you think they chased down 438 runs? They can offer batting pitches as well. Depending on the team that tours they give the pitch they want. WHen their batting was good with Kallis, Smith during the transiton of Australia they gave some fast pitcehs even then they could not win the series.

Yes, a few pitches here and there are flat and if there is no swing around, it becomes a batting paradise but that is the exception, not the rule.

 

[Savage]

Once again, not a 'win toss, win match' pitch. Batting first is highly beneficial on rank turners. The same advantage is not found on regular wickets.

LOL There is no such pitch as "Win toss,Win pitch".Better team more often than not will win the match.India were easily better team against SA in India just like SA were better team against India in SA recently.

 

[Savage]

LOL There is no such pitch as "Win toss,Win match".Better team more often than not will win the match.India were easily better team against SA in India just like SA were better team against India in SA recently.

fixed

 

[VijayTamilan]

So, Kohli scoring a similar innings from a similar situation on South African soil (on a pitch alleged to be Asian-esque but curiously one where other Asian and Protea giants, save for Ab and a patchy Amla, somehow failed) is inferior to the innings of Ab which was .. played at home? Also, it wasn't like that was too different from the pitch in the second match of the Indian series.

Keshav Maharaj is quality. He's never played on dustbowls yet look at the numbers he has. He's quality, and is only going to get better.

On that day 5 track in Adelaide, he counterattacked against that attack on a crumbling surface. Surfaces that are constantly in the process of crumbling make life difficult against any sort of bowling, let alone the kind of bowling that that Australian attack was capable of.

 

[VijayTamilan]

[MENTION=129948]Bilal7[/MENTION]

So, Kohli playing a similar innings from a similar situation on South African soil (on a pitch alleged to be Asian-esque but curiously one where other Asian and Protea giants, save for Ab and a patchy Amla, somehow failed) is inferior to the innings of Ab which was .. played at home? Also, it wasn't like the most recent pitch was too different from the pitch in the second match of the Indian series.

Keshav Maharaj is quality. He's never played on dustbowls yet look at the numbers he has. He's quality, and is only going to get better.

On that day 5 track in Adelaide, he counterattacked against that attack on a crumbling surface. Surfaces that are constantly in the process of crumbling make life difficult against any sort of bowling, let alone the kind of bowling that that Australian attack was capable of.

 

[soso_killer]

That knock was impactless because SA didn't win.But his performance in that series vs Australia(2014 where SA lost) is still better than his performance in England(2012 where SA won).

Like someone said earlier,One player doesn't win the series,team does.By using same logic,Shouldn't Ponting be much better than Lara/Sachin. Ponting performance is already comparable with Sachin/Lara and his Team dominated away from home.But still not many rate him over Sachin/Lara.

IN 2013 Kohli scored more runs in SA than any other SA batsmen.Did India win?NO
IN 2014 Kohli scored more runs in AUS apart from Smith.Did India win?NO
Just recently,Kohli was highest run scorer in SA(201).Did India win?NO

In 3rd Test vs SA(2018),Kohli was India's best batsmen which helped India won that match.But no sane person would rate that performance over Adelaide knock(2014) which experts like Ian chappell regards as best knock he's ever seen in 4th innings.

Your logic is akin to AB devilliers(or any other SA player) is not ODI ATG because he failed to win WC while Kohli already has WC.But that doesn't mean AB performance in WC is inferior to Kohli.

Kohli has a team to win away series in AUS,NZ and ENG.But still Kohli batting brilliantly doesn't guarantee Away series win at all.SA won away from home with the help of Steyn,Amla,Smith,Kallis not just because of Ab devilliers.

While some insecure Kohli fan gets carried away from all the away success he's had but they completely ignore his away performance in England and Home performance against Australia where team desperately needed him to perform and he was simply destroyed.

Kohli is brilliant but to overtake AB he has to now perform brilliantly in Aus,ENG and NZ series.Series win in those country would definitely make his performance extra special.But that away series win would depend on Team India not Kohli.

AB's knock was useless because Johnson was simply brilliant, anything he did was inconsequential. He did play a better knock in Cape Town, 25 of 200 deliveries IIRC. That is better because it was a valiant effort towards a team cause. SA came within a few overs of drawing that match and series. There is no point playing well when your team is in trouble and not turning up when they are putting in the effort.

I don't put a lot of emphasis on leading run scores in a series. Sachin was a master of scoring a huge 130+ score not out and disappear for the rest of the series. India's poor record in South Africa is no coincidence. The only time he did well and had a consistent tour was against Tsotsobe in 2011.

There's a reason I'm critical of your Dravid's and Tendulkar's of this world. They were absolute bottlers. Then you have fans cry about a bowling attack, which is laughable. In 2011 you had fans heaping praise on Kallis on how he stood between India and a series victory. But it's what great players do, they are not going to gift wrap a series in their conditions. India had a golden opportunities a few years earlier. It was 2007 when SA was still transitioning. The likes of Dravid and Tendulkar declined greatness in front of their eyes.

A nobody had led them to a total of 400+ in Cape Town,, a series decider. Can't remember his name, but played a magnificent hundred. SA fought hard as you'd expect and were dismissed around 350 odd. This is where great players sieze their opportunity. India had a lead of 70+ with SA batting last. Instead they fell like a deck of cards and bowled under 200. Dravid was there, so was Tendulkar. That was spineless imo. Great have to sieze those moments.

We never had an easy tour to Australia. Every match or series we've won there we came from behind, except our last tour even then we had to fight hard.
When a nobody like JP rescued us from 177 deficit with three wickets to play, our senior players stood up and made Australia pay. Smith chasing 414 in the second Test. Amla grabbing the series by the throat in 2012 after a nobody like Faf rescued the second Test.

India's problem has never been bowlers alone. The likes of Dravid, Tendulkar have let that team down massively. You guys need to own up to that. A dud like Matthews won a series in England because he grabbed the opportunity. The English did not want to grab that, and he took from them.

Why can't great players play these knocks? What is their purpose if they can't win matches and series for their country?

I absolutely despise Lara. He would not be anywhere near my team. Cricket is a team sport, not individual. Lara's behaviour was detrimental to his team. I refuse to accept the theory that Windies was as poor as results suggested. If I put Kallis in that team they would have competed way better and with discipline. The likes of Sarwarn would have became world class players.
Lara had a gun team in SA in 98, Ambrose, Walsh, Carlhooper, Chandapaul etc. Instead he allowed Kallis to win the series on his own. They lost 4-0. That's unacceptable for a team of that calibre, in a low scoring series at that. Kallis was the only player to average above 40 in difficult conditions, 50 IIRC. Lara was a disgrace throughout that series. Team players will always be superior individuals. I have never went to a cricket game to watch Steyn, I went to watch South Africa play. I don't tune in on TV for individuals, I watch the team as a whole and the roles of those individuals within the team. There is a reason I hate solo sports (Golf, Tennis etc), Boxing being the exception even then I'm not that into it. I have no reason whatsoever to rate Lara, he was a brilliant individual. But what does that even mean from a group point of view?

 

[WengerOut]

AB innings was superb situation wise . But the pitch was easy. I watched for 3 days and on all 3 days ( atleast until Mitch Marsh and Khawaja were batting together) , Holding was saying the pitch is not doing much apart from a little reverse swing. He told that on different occasions on all 3 days.

 

[WengerOut]

AB's knock was useless because Johnson was simply brilliant, anything he did was inconsequential. He did play a better knock in Cape Town, 25 of 200 deliveries IIRC. That is better because it was a valiant effort towards a team cause. SA came within a few overs of drawing that match and series. There is no point playing well when your team is in trouble and not turning up when they are putting in the effort.

I don't put a lot of emphasis on leading run scores in a series. Sachin was a master of scoring a huge 130+ score not out and disappear for the rest of the series. India's poor record in South Africa is no coincidence. The only time he did well and had a consistent tour was against Tsotsobe in 2011.

There's a reason I'm critical of your Dravid's and Tendulkar's of this world. They were absolute bottlers. Then you have fans cry about a bowling attack, which is laughable. In 2011 you had fans heaping praise on Kallis on how he stood between India and a series victory. But it's what great players do, they are not going to gift wrap a series in their conditions. India had a golden opportunities a few years earlier. It was 2007 when SA was still transitioning. The likes of Dravid and Tendulkar declined greatness in front of their eyes.

A nobody had led them to a total of 400+ in Cape Town,, a series decider. Can't remember his name, but played a magnificent hundred. SA fought hard as you'd expect and were dismissed around 350 odd. This is where great players sieze their opportunity. India had a lead of 70+ with SA batting last. Instead they fell like a deck of cards and bowled under 200. Dravid was there, so was Tendulkar. That was spineless imo. Great have to sieze those moments.

We never had an easy tour to Australia. Every match or series we've won there we came from behind, except our last tour even then we had to fight hard.
When a nobody like JP rescued us from 177 deficit with three wickets to play, our senior players stood up and made Australia pay. Smith chasing 414 in the second Test. Amla grabbing the series by the throat in 2012 after a nobody like Faf rescued the second Test.

India's problem has never been bowlers alone. The likes of Dravid, Tendulkar have let that team down massively. You guys need to own up to that. A dud like Matthews won a series in England because he grabbed the opportunity. The English did not want to grab that, and he took from them.

Why can't great players play these knocks? What is their purpose if they can't win matches and series for their country?

I absolutely despise Lara. He would not be anywhere near my team. Cricket is a team sport, not individual. Lara's behaviour was detrimental to his team. I refuse to accept the theory that Windies was as poor as results suggested. If I put Kallis in that team they would have competed way better and with discipline. The likes of Sarwarn would have became world class players.
Lara had a gun team in SA in 98, Ambrose, Walsh, Carlhooper, Chandapaul etc. Instead he allowed Kallis to win the series on his own. They lost 4-0. That's unacceptable for a team of that calibre, in a low scoring series at that. Kallis was the only player to average above 40 in difficult conditions, 50 IIRC. Lara was a disgrace throughout that series. Team players will always be superior individuals. I have never went to a cricket game to watch Steyn, I went to watch South Africa play. I don't tune in on TV for individuals, I watch the team as a whole and the roles of those individuals within the team. There is a reason I hate solo sports (Golf, Tennis etc), Boxing being the exception even then I'm not that into it. I have no reason whatsoever to rate Lara, he was a brilliant individual. But what does that even mean from a group point of view?

Basically a 130 score when the series is alive is useless for you. Talk about bending facts to suit your narrative . Irony died a thousand deaths when a south African fan mocking others for being bottlers. Simply shooting in the air by saying everything apart from SA are bottlers.

Yes, you need bowlers to win a series. That is why Pakistan despite having an inferior batting resources have a superior record than India. SA despite having a superior bowling have not won anything globally which is quintessential choking , bottling etc

Regarding Angelo Mathews , Sri Lanka played a 2 match test series and won 1 - 0. India subsequently played 5 test matches and after 2 tests , guess what was the score , !! 1-0 to India. Removing the context completely and posting something to suit your narrative is lolworthy. SL would never win a 5 match series after the way they escaped in the first test match.

And India won on 2007 with 'serial bottlers 'performing

 

[WengerOut]

Then stop arguing about it. AB de Villiers is a better test batsman than Virat Kohli. Even Kohli's fans agree. No point nitpicking over little things when everyone agrees on the bigger picture.

Overall career wise , AB is better. But don't create a folklore out of AB innings the other day. Damn good innings but conditions were in his favour. Also the bowling was not ATG. Taileder specialist Starc , Hazlwood is benign on these surfaces ( check his India exploits ) , Lyon and Cummins ( only one good )

 

[soso_killer]

Didn't AB take a sabbatical of two years? Or am I missing something? I thought he last played a Test in January 2016 completing the 2015/16 season prior to making a return in 2018? Basically he played no cricket in 2016.
Or am I missing something? I keep on hearing about a three year period of not scoring a ton.
IIRC after the Windies series in 2015, we went to Bangladesh with AB rested (think for the birth of his first child), then went to India where no one scored runs. Had a poor series against England at home. Took a sabbatical after, came back in 2018 and won a series for his country. Or am I missing the narrative?

 

[Savage]

AB's knock was useless because Johnson was simply brilliant, anything he did was inconsequential. He did play a better knock in Cape Town, 25 of 200 deliveries IIRC. That is better because it was a valiant effort towards a team cause. SA came within a few overs of drawing that match and series. There is no point playing well when your team is in trouble and not turning up when they are putting in the effort.

I don't put a lot of emphasis on leading run scores in a series. Sachin was a master of scoring a huge 130+ score not out and disappear for the rest of the series. India's poor record in South Africa is no coincidence. The only time he did well and had a consistent tour was against Tsotsobe in 2011.

There's a reason I'm critical of your Dravid's and Tendulkar's of this world. They were absolute bottlers. Then you have fans cry about a bowling attack, which is laughable. In 2011 you had fans heaping praise on Kallis on how he stood between India and a series victory. But it's what great players do, they are not going to gift wrap a series in their conditions. India had a golden opportunities a few years earlier. It was 2007 when SA was still transitioning. The likes of Dravid and Tendulkar declined greatness in front of their eyes.

A nobody had led them to a total of 400+ in Cape Town,, a series decider. Can't remember his name, but played a magnificent hundred. SA fought hard as you'd expect and were dismissed around 350 odd. This is where great players sieze their opportunity. India had a lead of 70+ with SA batting last. Instead they fell like a deck of cards and bowled under 200. Dravid was there, so was Tendulkar. That was spineless imo. Great have to sieze those moments.

We never had an easy tour to Australia. Every match or series we've won there we came from behind, except our last tour even then we had to fight hard.
When a nobody like JP rescued us from 177 deficit with three wickets to play, our senior players stood up and made Australia pay. Smith chasing 414 in the second Test. Amla grabbing the series by the throat in 2012 after a nobody like Faf rescued the second Test.

India's problem has never been bowlers alone. The likes of Dravid, Tendulkar have let that team down massively. You guys need to own up to that. A dud like Matthews won a series in England because he grabbed the opportunity. The English did not want to grab that, and he took from them.

Why can't great players play these knocks? What is their purpose if they can't win matches and series for their country?

I absolutely despise Lara. He would not be anywhere near my team. Cricket is a team sport, not individual. Lara's behaviour was detrimental to his team. I refuse to accept the theory that Windies was as poor as results suggested. If I put Kallis in that team they would have competed way better and with discipline. The likes of Sarwarn would have became world class players.
Lara had a gun team in SA in 98, Ambrose, Walsh, Carlhooper, Chandapaul etc. Instead he allowed Kallis to win the series on his own. They lost 4-0. That's unacceptable for a team of that calibre, in a low scoring series at that. Kallis was the only player to average above 40 in difficult conditions, 50 IIRC. Lara was a disgrace throughout that series. Team players will always be superior individuals. I have never went to a cricket game to watch Steyn, I went to watch South Africa play. I don't tune in on TV for individuals, I watch the team as a whole and the roles of those individuals within the team. There is a reason I hate solo sports (Golf, Tennis etc), Boxing being the exception even then I'm not that into it. I have no reason whatsoever to rate Lara, he was a brilliant individual. But what does that even mean from a group point of view?

Sachin and Dravid were not "bottlers" and it is strange coming from South African fan.kallis was brilliant against India in 2011 but You are picking one or two instances to support your claim which doesn't prove anything.yes Dravid was not brilliant in SA but he was outstanding in England and New zealand.Dravid helped India won a match in Australia and was given MOM along with MOS.

Besides this was completely irrelevant to my main point.No subcontinental teamhas ever won a series in AUS and SA.Cricket is a team sport and Kohli doesn't need to win series in Aus,NZ and ENG to become ATG.

 

[Hitman]

I don't put a lot of emphasis on leading run scores in a series. Sachin was a master of scoring a huge 130+ score not out and disappear for the rest of the series. India's poor record in South Africa is no coincidence. The only time he did well and had a consistent tour was against Tsotsobe in 2011.

Steyn and Morkel went fishing in that tour?

 

[soso_killer]

Lol at easy pitches for this series. Australia are playing on proper coastal South African conditions.
India played on extreme South African conditions because we played in extreme conditions in India. We can be mean too, that was the message.
India have always enjoyed good batting conditions in SA, they've never made anything of it.

All the runs scored in this series are below the national average of 29.
964 runs were scored in this Test at 26 runs per wicket.
First Test 1038 scored, 40 wickets fell. Runs were scored at 25.95 per wicket.
People need to get their eyes fixed.

 

[WengerOut]

Steyn and Morkel went fishing in that tour?

Sachin maneuvered the strike that he dint have to face them. And the serial bottler scored a useless century in the deciding test like he bottled earlier in SA when he dodged Donald and Pollock.

According to him Ricky ponting and Steve Waugh are worthless for not helping win in India. Wasim Akram and Waqar are just to make up numbers for not winning in Aus and SA. Did Viv win a test in Pak? If not , he is also a hack.

 

[WengerOut]

Lol at easy pitches for this series. Australia are playing on proper coastal South African conditions.
India played on extreme South African conditions because we played in extreme conditions in India. We can be mean too, that was the message.
India have always enjoyed good batting conditions in SA, they've never made anything of it.

All the runs scored in this series are below the national average of 29.
964 runs were scored in this Test at 26 runs per wicket.
First Test 1038 scored, 40 wickets fell. Runs were scored at 25.95 per wicket.
People need to get their eyes fixed.

Here comes the national average junk again !! Dude , just coz batsmen were incompetent in these conditions does not make it a tough pitch. Good enough batsmen will score runs like AB. Reverse swing is tackled by every SC batsmen regularly.


And when you guys became " Mean" , you got away with a 2-1 win. When we were "mean" , you still got away with a 0-3 loss.

 

[soso_killer]

[MENTION=129948]Bilal7[/MENTION]

So, Kohli playing a similar innings from a similar situation on South African soil (on a pitch alleged to be Asian-esque but curiously one where other Asian and Protea giants, save for Ab and a patchy Amla, somehow failed) is inferior to the innings of Ab which was .. played at home? Also, it wasn't like the most recent pitch was too different from the pitch in the second match of the Indian series.

Keshav Maharaj is quality. He's never played on dustbowls yet look at the numbers he has. He's quality, and is only going to get better.

On that day 5 track in Adelaide, he counterattacked against that attack on a crumbling surface. Surfaces that are constantly in the process of crumbling make life difficult against any sort of bowling, let alone the kind of bowling that that Australian attack was capable of.

There's no similarities between this wicket to the one in Pretoria. This one was tougher, there was no movement whatsoever with the new ball. Everything was gun barrel straight.

 

[Hitman]

So Australia and South Africa will prepare pitches according to their strength, and when Kohli does well on them, he still wouldn't be given his due credit simply because those pitch weren't difficult enough to bat on )

Now if Kohli fails in the upcoming tour to England, he will be ridiculed beyond any measure. And if he does well, the pitches wouldn't be as difficult as the last time when India toured where he failed. Brilliant!!!!

 

[cricketworm]

ABDV is at the end of his career, and Kohli is at middle of career.

And we are doing comparison, today. Tells you about Kohli. And ABDV's test career.

 

[WengerOut]

So Australia and South Africa will prepare pitches according to their strength, and when Kohli does well on them, he still wouldn't be given his due credit simply because those pitch weren't difficult enough to bat on )

Now if Kohli fails in the upcoming tour to England, he will be ridiculed beyond any measure. And if he does well, the pitches wouldn't be as difficult as the last time when India toured where he failed. Brilliant!!!!

"Tough piches" galore in the Aus series. Green wickets are painted brown to give a feeling of flatness. I have seen everything today. A South African accusing others of being bottlers , Sachin - Lara - Dravid etc not good enough, now making every pitch in this world apart from those in which India plays, as tough etc. Stooping so low to glorify country men

 

[soso_killer]

Sachin and Dravid were not "bottlers" and it is strange coming from South African fan.kallis was brilliant against India in 2011 but You are picking one or two instances to support your claim which doesn't prove anything.yes Dravid was not brilliant in SA but he was outstanding in England and New zealand.Dravid helped India won a match in Australia and was given MOM along with MOS.

Besides this was completely irrelevant to my main point.No subcontinental teamhas ever won a series in AUS and SA.Cricket is a team sport and Kohli doesn't need to win series in Aus,NZ and ENG to become ATG.

Indian batsmen have never stood up when the going got tough. That was my point. The 2007 series was an example of many bottle jobs. I get that Kallis was brilliant in 2011, that can be forgiven. But it is unforgivable to collapse in one of the places you're rarely ever gonna win a series. A 70 run lead, against an inexperienced side that will bat last? Come on man, take responsibility. Tendulkar or Dravid should have stood up. Great players grab such moments. Can't blame bowlers for everything.

Smith chased 414 to win a series in Australia.
He scored 154* to win a series in England, another record chase in that country. In neither of those matches could you say SA was in a winning position. He simply took greatness by the throat and got his team over the line from improbable positions. Bowlers have nothing to do with those victories, absolutely nothing.

Indian batsmen have to take a look at themselves, especially the "supposed" greats.

I'm not saying Kohli should pull a Smith, there's only one Graeme Smith. But if he is part of collapses when the series is at stake, especially from a winning position. Then he will be as useless as his forefathers.

Victories don't always present themselves, great players have to present victories. Likes of Smith, Amla, Kallis have all won series away on their own. AB must join that group of players if he is to be great himself. He doesn't have to win on his own like those players, but series victories must have his fingerprints all over them.

 

[soso_killer]

Steyn and Morkel went fishing in that tour?

Steyn was the lone warrior, Morkel was busy being erratic as always. Had one great innings, was rubbish throughout after. So glad he's retiring TBH, as a third seamer ok fine. As an opening bowler? He's garbage, 3/4 five-fors in 70+ Tests.

 

[soso_killer]

Here comes the national average junk again !! Dude , just coz batsmen were incompetent in these conditions does not make it a tough pitch. Good enough batsmen will score runs like AB. Reverse swing is tackled by every SC batsmen regularly.


And when you guys became " Mean" , you got away with a 2-1 win. When we were "mean" , you still got away with a 0-3 loss.

By the same token, i could say the same for the Indian series though. SA won and scored hundreds on similar pitches all the time.

 

[Adijazz1706]

Indian batsmen have never stood up when the going got tough. That was my point. The 2007 series was an example of many bottle jobs. I get that Kallis was brilliant in 2011, that can be forgiven. But it is unforgivable to collapse in one of the places you're rarely ever gonna win a series. A 70 run lead, against an inexperienced side that will bat last? Come on man, take responsibility. Tendulkar or Dravid should have stood up. Great players grab such moments. Can't blame bowlers for everything.

Smith chased 414 to win a series in Australia.
He scored 154* to win a series in England, another record chase in that country. In neither of those matches could you say SA was in a winning position. He simply took greatness by the throat and got his team over the line from improbable positions. Bowlers have nothing to do with those victories, absolutely nothing.

Indian batsmen have to take a look at themselves, especially the "supposed" greats.

I'm not saying Kohli should pull a Smith, there's only one Graeme Smith. But if he is part of collapses when the series is at stake, especially from a winning position. Then he will be as useless as his forefathers.

Victories don't always present themselves, great players have to present victories. Likes of Smith, Amla, Kallis have all won series away on their own. AB must join that group of players if he is to be great himself. He doesn't have to win on his own like those players, but series victories must have his fingerprints all over them.

Just took a look at that 07 test on Cricinfo, and guess what showed up in the commentary:

he's a goner! After struggling all through his painful innings, after hardly working the ball off the pads, or in the gaps, Tendulkar gets a hard-luck decision! The ball pitches on middle and leg and moves down with the reverse swing, Tendulkar plays all over it going for the flick, misses and gets rapped on the pad, they all go up in appeal and Asad Rauf gives it! In real time it looked good, but replays show it was clearly missing leg stump; a poor call, but to many Indian supporters this will be the age-old tale of Sachin getting out when the chips are down

 

[soso_killer]

Basically a 130 score when the series is alive is useless for you. Talk about bending facts to suit your narrative . Irony died a thousand deaths when a south African fan mocking others for being bottlers. Simply shooting in the air by saying everything apart from SA are bottlers.

Which 130 are you referring to? Not sure I follow.
India have bottled, especially their star players.
South Africa are no Test bottlers, in ODI's they absolutely are. Mental midgets really, no guts whatsoever. Test side? Clutch as they come.

Yes, you need bowlers to win a series. That is why Pakistan despite having an inferior batting resources have a superior record than India. SA despite having a superior bowling have not won anything globally which is quintessential choking , bottling etc

Bowlers can take you so far. South Africa's series victories in Australia have had nothing to do with bowlers, bar the last one. Even then our bats had to dig deep.
JP rescued SA facing a deficit of 177 with 3 wickets in hand. Gave us an improbable lead of 50. No Indian bat ever did that.
Smith chased 414, 2nd Test, unless you want to credit the bowlers for putting SA in a "winning" position.
In 2012 our bowlers were chasing leather all over Australia. The Australian media were toasting their champagnes celebrating the #1 ranking in the second Test. At the end of day 4 SA were 64/4. We all know what happened next. Amla took the series by the throat in the third Test.

The same thing happened in England 2008, needed to save the first Test. Smith pulled record chase in the third Test from 60/5.
Bowlers have let us down on numerous occasions. Our greats simply stood tall, didn't make excuses.

Why can't the likes of Tendulkar, Dravid play these knocks if they were so great?

Regarding Angelo Mathews , Sri Lanka played a 2 match test series and won 1 - 0. India subsequently played 5 test matches and after 2 tests , guess what was the score , !! 1-0 to India. Removing the context completely and posting something to suit your narrative is lolworthy. SL would never win a 5 match series after the way they escaped in the first test match.

And India won on 2007 with 'serial bottlers 'performing

why would I care what the scoreline of a five match series was after two Tests? Doesn't make any sense. You don't down tools because you're one nil up.
What did India win in 2007?

 

[Bilal7]

LOL There is no such pitch as "Win toss,Win pitch".Better team more often than not will win the match.India were easily better team against SA in India just like SA were better team against India in SA recently.

So Australia are a better test team than India, in India? Or would you say that Australia had an advantage by batting first on the rank turner in Pune?

[MENTION=129948]Bilal7[/MENTION]

So, Kohli playing a similar innings from a similar situation on South African soil (on a pitch alleged to be Asian-esque but curiously one where other Asian and Protea giants, save for Ab and a patchy Amla, somehow failed) is inferior to the innings of Ab which was .. played at home? Also, it wasn't like the most recent pitch was too different from the pitch in the second match of the Indian series.

Keshav Maharaj is quality. He's never played on dustbowls yet look at the numbers he has. He's quality, and is only going to get better.

On that day 5 track in Adelaide, he counterattacked against that attack on a crumbling surface. Surfaces that are constantly in the process of crumbling make life difficult against any sort of bowling, let alone the kind of bowling that that Australian attack was capable of.

Yes, it was an inferior innings because the ball did not reverse as much as it did here. Neither was Kohli able to give India a substantial lead in the match like ABD was. The conditions were not "allegedly" Asian, they were Asian. When the players themselves are saying so, we should not have any doubts.

No, that pitch was only helpful for the sole spinner in the Australian side. And Kohli ended up choking at the end. Not comparable to what ABD did in the last game.

Overall career wise , AB is better. But don't create a folklore out of AB innings the other day. Damn good innings but conditions were in his favour. Also the bowling was not ATG. Taileder specialist Starc , Hazlwood is benign on these surfaces ( check his India exploits ) , Lyon and Cummins ( only one good )

Reverse-swing means that the conditions are never in the batsman's favor. Yes, Amla and Elgar did make it easier for him but the way he took apart that extremely good attack was outstanding.

 

[Bilal7]

Which 130 are you referring to? Not sure I follow.
India have bottled, especially their star players.
South Africa are no Test bottlers, in ODI's they absolutely are. Mental midgets really, no guts whatsoever. Test side? Clutch as they come.



Bowlers can take you so far. South Africa's series victories in Australia have had nothing to do with bowlers, bar the last one. Even then our bats had to dig deep.
JP rescued SA facing a deficit of 177 with 3 wickets in hand. Gave us an improbable lead of 50. No Indian bat ever did that.
Smith chased 414, 2nd Test, unless you want to credit the bowlers for putting SA in a "winning" position.
In 2012 our bowlers were chasing leather all over Australia. The Australian media were toasting their champagnes celebrating the #1 ranking in the second Test. At the end of day 4 SA were 64/4. We all know what happened next. Amla took the series by the throat in the third Test.

The same thing happened in England 2008, needed to save the first Test. Smith pulled record chase in the third Test from 60/5.
Bowlers have let us down on numerous occasions. Our greats simply stood tall, didn't make excuses.

Why can't the likes of Tendulkar, Dravid play these knocks if they were so great?


why would I care what the scoreline of a five match series was after two Tests? Doesn't make any sense. You don't down tools because you're one nil up.
What did India win in 2007?

No one handles pressure better than South African batsmen in tests. We've seen countless examples of this over the years.

 

[Bilal7]

Just took a look at that 07 test on Cricinfo, and guess what showed up in the commentary:

Funny how he got owned by reverse-swing but some Indians here are speaking as if facing the reverse is nothing difficult.

 

[Sidilicious]

Funny how he got owned by reverse-swing but some Indians here are speaking as if facing the reverse is nothing difficult.

Funny to call it owned when the ball was heading down.

 

[Savage]

So Australia are a better test team than India, in India? Or would you say that Australia had an advantage by batting first on the rank turner in Pune?

Really?Australia have won only 1 match in India since 2004.

Idk Why are you so obsessed with only 1 match. Australia beat India handsomely in Pune Test because India were not up to the mark and Australia were much superior in that test.Even in 2nd Test,India batted first and were dominated by Australia for 70% of that match and it was only Rahane-Pujara partnership which saved India from defeat.Lyon took 8 wickets on the 1st day of that test.

In 4th test match of 2013 series where India won the match by 6 wickets as Australia batted first.That was also a rank turner pitch which Steve smith criticized on the first day of that test.

I don't think we have anything more to discuss about this topic.

 

[Tusker]

No one handles pressure better than South African batsmen in tests. We've seen countless examples of this over the years.

Like how they won all those tests in Ind last time .......... )

 

[Savage]

Indian batsmen have never stood up when the going got tough. That was my point. The 2007 series was an example of many bottle jobs. I get that Kallis was brilliant in 2011, that can be forgiven. But it is unforgivable to collapse in one of the places you're rarely ever gonna win a series. A 70 run lead, against an inexperienced side that will bat last? Come on man, take responsibility. Tendulkar or Dravid should have stood up. Great players grab such moments. Can't blame bowlers for everything.

Smith chased 414 to win a series in Australia.
He scored 154* to win a series in England, another record chase in that country. In neither of those matches could you say SA was in a winning position. He simply took greatness by the throat and got his team over the line from improbable positions. Bowlers have nothing to do with those victories, absolutely nothing.

Indian batsmen have to take a look at themselves, especially the "supposed" greats.

I'm not saying Kohli should pull a Smith, there's only one Graeme Smith. But if he is part of collapses when the series is at stake, especially from a winning position. Then he will be as useless as his forefathers.

Victories don't always present themselves, great players have to present victories. Likes of Smith, Amla, Kallis have all won series away on their own. AB must join that group of players if he is to be great himself. He doesn't have to win on his own like those players, but series victories must have his fingerprints all over them.

Sachin and Dravid are Test greats and they both have stood up for India in tough situation many times.Sachin was already regarded as 2nd best batsmen after Don bradman in 2002 by wisden and even if you take only his career after 2002 into consideration,He would've been still regarded as ATG.Dravid failed in SA but he has more than made up for his failures by performing well in other countries.Dravid won the Man of the Series in England Twice and once in Australia which most Asian Batsmen could only dream of.

Anyway this thread was about Kohli & AB.Not sure why are we bringing Sachin and dravid career.So I won't go into details about the careers of Sachin and Dravid as it has nothing to do with this thread.

ON topic,Kohli needs to perform brilliantly away from home and if he does that,then he would be regarded as ATG.It's completely stupid to suggest that Kohli has to win away series in Aus,NZ and ENG to become great.

Sachin,Wasim and Dravid are still regarded as ATG even though they failed to win series in Australia and South Africa.

 

[Ab Fan]

Using some of logics here, I am sure VVS must be an ATG then?

 

[WengerOut]

Only SA batsmen stands up to be counted . It is a pity that [MENTION=132982]soso_killer[/MENTION] is the only one counting. Kallis , Amla and AB have thrown the whole team under the bus many times. Only one i consider better in SA was Graeme Smith.

Classic case of counting when only fellow countrymen scores. Sachin's 1998, 1999 , 2001 and 2008 series had many great innings. 2007 Eng tour had his important knocks.

It is a pity that Dravid and Sachin were the truly all condition batsmen for India. Add to that the comical bowling made matters worse.

Even with everything in their favour , SA have not set anything on fire and that is classic bottling.

 

[WengerOut]

Which 130 are you referring to? Not sure I follow.
India have bottled, especially their star players.
South Africa are no Test bottlers, in ODI's they absolutely are. Mental midgets really, no guts whatsoever. Test side? Clutch as they come.



Bowlers can take you so far. South Africa's series victories in Australia have had nothing to do with bowlers, bar the last one. Even then our bats had to dig deep.
JP rescued SA facing a deficit of 177 with 3 wickets in hand. Gave us an improbable lead of 50. No Indian bat ever did that.
Smith chased 414, 2nd Test, unless you want to credit the bowlers for putting SA in a "winning" position.
In 2012 our bowlers were chasing leather all over Australia. The Australian media were toasting their champagnes celebrating the #1 ranking in the second Test. At the end of day 4 SA were 64/4. We all know what happened next. Amla took the series by the throat in the third Test.

The same thing happened in England 2008, needed to save the first Test. Smith pulled record chase in the third Test from 60/5.
Bowlers have let us down on numerous occasions. Our greats simply stood tall, didn't make excuses.

Why can't the likes of Tendulkar, Dravid play these knocks if they were so great?


why would I care what the scoreline of a five match series was after two Tests? Doesn't make any sense. You don't down tools because you're one nil up.
What did India win in 2007?

What did India win in 2007?

In 2007 , India won an away series in England with few of their 'bottlers' performing.

JP rescued SA facing a deficit of 177 with 3 wickets in hand.Gave us an improbable lead of 50. No Indian bat ever did that.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/14141/scorecard/291352/australia-vs-india-2nd-test/

Smith chased 414, 2nd Test, unless you want to credit the bowlers for putting SA in a "winning" position.
In 2012 our bowlers were chasing leather all over Australia. The Australian media were toasting their champagnes celebrating the #1 ranking in the second Test. At the end of day 4 SA were 64/4. We all know what happened next. Amla took the series by the throat in the third Test.

There is a reason that some of the innings are ATG innings. It wont happen day in day out. Laxmans innings is better than any of your guys innings. Is he better than them ? And your bowlers restricted Aus on a flat pitch in the second innings. Our bowlers would never do that. Yes , in 2007 that happened , but you cant form an opinion based on that.Put Amla and Kallis in Indian team , they would never do that.

why would I care what the scoreline of a five match series was after two Tests? Doesn't make any sense. You don't down tools because you're one nil up.

Because you blabbered about Angelo mathews winning in England. A 2 match series is never a series. You can outrun Usain Bolt over 10m but not over 100.

 

[WengerOut]

Funny how he got owned by reverse-swing but some Indians here are speaking as if facing the reverse is nothing difficult.

People get out on flat pitches. Funny people saying flat pitches are easy. He had tackled best pakistani reverse swing bowlers on extreme conditions. Taking a match out of context and passing it off as a norm is classic hater routine.

 

[WengerOut]

Indian batsmen have never stood up when the going got tough. That was my point. The 2007 series was an example of many bottle jobs. I get that Kallis was brilliant in 2011, that can be forgiven. But it is unforgivable to collapse in one of the places you're rarely ever gonna win a series. A 70 run lead, against an inexperienced side that will bat last? Come on man, take responsibility. Tendulkar or Dravid should have stood up. Great players grab such moments. Can't blame bowlers for everything.

Smith chased 414 to win a series in Australia.
He scored 154* to win a series in England, another record chase in that country. In neither of those matches could you say SA was in a winning position. He simply took greatness by the throat and got his team over the line from improbable positions. Bowlers have nothing to do with those victories, absolutely nothing.

Indian batsmen have to take a look at themselves, especially the "supposed" greats.

I'm not saying Kohli should pull a Smith, there's only one Graeme Smith. But if he is part of collapses when the series is at stake, especially from a winning position. Then he will be as useless as his forefathers.

Victories don't always present themselves, great players have to present victories. Likes of Smith, Amla, Kallis have all won series away on their own. AB must join that group of players if he is to be great himself. He doesn't have to win on his own like those players, but series victories must have his fingerprints all over them.

Kallis never performed in a series victory over India , SL and England

Amla never performed in a series victory over India and Pak

Graeme Smith in India

Less said about AB , the better

They got a huge chance at Kanpur 2008 after winning the toss and batting first on a turning pitch. And guess what? They bottled

 

[Hitman]

Steyn was the lone warrior, Morkel was busy being erratic as always. Had one great innings, was rubbish throughout after. So glad he's retiring TBH, as a third seamer ok fine. As an opening bowler? He's garbage, 3/4 five-fors in 70+ Tests.

So suddenly from only Totsobe, Steyn's name now finally pops up from your mouth. Oh, and Morkel too was there but it's India's fault that he was erratic. Brilliant!!

 

[AMSS]

While some posters in this thread are working overtime to absurdly diminish Kohli's achievement or the fact that he would leave de Villiers FAR FAR behind in his wake by the time he calls time on his career, it is GRATIFYING to note that Graeme Smith has already anointed the Indian captain as best batsman in the world.

 

[soso_killer]

Sachin and Dravid are Test greats and they both have stood up for India in tough situation many times.Sachin was already regarded as 2nd best batsmen after Don bradman in 2002 by wisden and even if you take only his career after 2002 into consideration,He would've been still regarded as ATG.Dravid failed in SA but he has more than made up for his failures by performing well in other countries.Dravid won the Man of the Series in England Twice and once in Australia which most Asian Batsmen could only dream of.

Anyway this thread was about Kohli & AB.Not sure why are we bringing Sachin and dravid career.So I won't go into details about the careers of Sachin and Dravid as it has nothing to do with this thread.

ON topic,Kohli needs to perform brilliantly away from home and if he does that,then he would be regarded as ATG.It's completely stupid to suggest that Kohli has to win away series in Aus,NZ and ENG to become great.

Sachin,Wasim and Dravid are still regarded as ATG even though they failed to win series in Australia and South Africa.

They still didn't do enough away, they are as accountable as their bowlers, if not more. What's so hard about that? Those guys often fell like a deck of cards, there's countless implosions.

The Man of the Series you're alluding to, is it the one where Australia basically rested their front line attack? Is that the one?

Dravid and Tendulkar came into discussion in a sense that Kohli should want to avoid the lack of impact those guys had. He has already won an ODI series in SA, where Sachin was spineless. He didn't just win it, he bullied it. I have high hopes for him. He seems to be cut from a different cloth and doesn't make excuses. I'll be disappointed if he turns out to be another statsguru, with no impact whatsoever. Can't lose 8-0 away from home.

 

[AMSS]

By the way, did any of you guys cringe at that Saffie commentator literally imploring Allan Border to validate de Villiers status as one of game's great. Mike haysman I believe it was.

He first asked how he rated de Villiers. Border blurted out some everyday cricketing cliche to say yeah he was 'right up there'.

Not satisfied, this joke commentator asked Border to name some of those batsman he considered the very best. Border says, Sachin and Lara. Then he says Sunny Gavaskar. Border then paused and named Greg Chapell and Ponting. By this time there was over break and commentators paused, presumably for the ad break.

But I was watching the telecast on internet so there was no ad break and you could listen to commentators chat in the background. Mike haysman reminded Border that he forgot to list Kallis, and that he deserved to be named among those he listed on air.

Now when we came back to the commentary, haysman continued banging on this subject, reminding Border that if wanted to add more names to those he listed as the best he had seen? Border dismissively says, 'yeah, i am sure there are a few more I have forgotten, but those I named were the best'.

IT WAS HYSTERICAL!

 

[soso_killer]

Kallis never performed in a series victory over India , SL and England

Amla never performed in a series victory over India and Pak

Graeme Smith in India

Less said about AB , the better

They got a huge chance at Kanpur 2008 after winning the toss and batting first on a turning pitch. And guess what? They bottled

Lol what?
Kallis won a series in India on his own, brilliant with bat and ball. Wasn't he man of the series or something? (Not sure, will have to go back).
Did the samething in Pakistan, won on his own.
Played his part in England too with a brilliant 182*, even asked his team to declare instead of going for a double hundred. What a team player. This is exactly what epitomises greatness for me. A lose canon like Lara would have put his needs before the team.

Amla has done it all. Australia, England, Sri Lanka, India.

I'm not going to talk about Smith I don't have to. He is the greatest match winner the game has ever seen. Master chaser.

AB is a wrung below these guys, but he has played a hand here and there. Now it's time for him to step up.

All these players have performed well, either winning matches away on their own or collectively. And there was a level of consistency. Not winning once in a blue and getting spanked the next time you tour. Where they didn't win they drew. For 8 years, imagine for one minute what it takes not to lose away for 8 years. Pakistan, UAE, India, Sri Lanka, England, India, Australia and NZ.

SA have already won in India, bottling is missing an opportunity you're never likely to get. That iconic moment, your first series win. It always means more. Like winning in Australia, our nemesis. I never take it for granted winning over there, we might never win again for that matter. But the 2016 victory doesn't compare to the one in 2008, not even close. That was an iconic series, one for the ages. I still remember where I was and how I felt.

 

[BreadPakoda]

Lol. The series win that soso keeps talking about happened ages ago when Cronje and Azhar were around. Fact is SA has won only 2 tests in India in 18 years since today’s date and got a hiding of a lifetime when they last visited us. Even with their star batsmen playing they performed worse than minnows and wasted spectators ticket money.
And if their recent performance at home against Indian spinners is anything to go by, their team is going to find it hard to even beat Bangladesh considering the quality of spinners sub continent teams have.

 

[soso_killer]

In 2007 , India won an away series in England with few of their 'bottlers' performing.




http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/14141/scorecard/291352/australia-vs-india-2nd-test/




There is a reason that some of the innings are ATG innings. It wont happen day in day out. Laxmans innings is better than any of your guys innings. Is he better than them ? And your bowlers restricted Aus on a flat pitch in the second innings. Our bowlers would never do that. Yes , in 2007 that happened , but you cant form an opinion based on that.Put Amla and Kallis in Indian team , they would never do that.



Because you blabbered about Angelo mathews winning in England. A 2 match series is never a series. You can outrun Usain Bolt over 10m but not over 100.

They left out one of the key sculpts though SA and Australia. The two Test nations are the holy grail. Even the series victory falls in the category of once in a blue moon. I understand SA, Australia and India. You only win in those countries once.

What innings did Laxman play that is so great?

SA were able to restrict Australia around 200 because we sucked their momentum. Any other team would have imploded in that situation. This exactly what I mean about creating chances out of nothing. We were dead and buried, Australia were looking at a 120+ lead at least. That 50/60 run lead was crucial in the end and needed to chase around 180 odd. 250+ would have been tricky.

Kallis and Amla would have won a lot for India because they are out and out match winners and complete team players.

South Africa won a two match Test series 2-0in India. 1-0 in Lanka. It's a series you bet.

 

[hk031992]

Lol. The series win that soso keeps talking about happened ages ago when Cronje and Azhar were around. Fact is SA has won only 2 tests in India in 18 years since today’s date and got a hiding of a lifetime when they last visited us. Even with their star batsmen playing they performed worse than minnows and wasted spectators ticket money.
And if their recent performance at home against Indian spinners is anything to go by, their team is going to find it hard to even beat Bangladesh considering the quality of spinners sub continent teams have.

SA may not do well in India but did you seriously see the wickets they prepared in India?

 

[BreadPakoda]

By the way, did any of you guys cringe at that Saffie commentator literally imploring Allan Border to validate de Villiers status as one of game's great. Mike haysman I believe it was.

He first asked how he rated de Villiers. Border blurted out some everyday cricketing cliche to say yeah he was 'right up there'.

Not satisfied, this joke commentator asked Border to name some of those batsman he considered the very best. Border says, Sachin and Lara. Then he says Sunny Gavaskar. Border then paused and named Greg Chapell and Ponting. By this time there was over break and commentators paused, presumably for the ad break.

But I was watching the telecast on internet so there was no ad break and you could listen to commentators chat in the background. Mike haysman reminded Border that he forgot to list Kallis, and that he deserved to be named among those he listed on air.

Now when we came back to the commentary, haysman continued banging on this subject, reminding Border that if wanted to add more names to those he listed as the best he had seen? Border dismissively says, 'yeah, i am sure there are a few more I have forgotten, but those I named were the best'.

IT WAS HYSTERICAL!

Which match was this? The most recent test? Haysman takes it to a different level all together.

 

[WengerOut]

Lol what?
Kallis won a series in India on his own, brilliant with bat and ball. Wasn't he man of the series or something? (Not sure, will have to go back).
Did the samething in Pakistan, won on his own.
Played his part in England too with a brilliant 182*, even asked his team to declare instead of going for a double hundred. What a team player. This is exactly what epitomises greatness for me. A lose canon like Lara would have put his needs before the team.

Amla has done it all. Australia, England, Sri Lanka, India.

I'm not going to talk about Smith I don't have to. He is the greatest match winner the game has ever seen. Master chaser.

AB is a wrung below these guys, but he has played a hand here and there. Now it's time for him to step up.

All these players have performed well, either winning matches away on their own or collectively. And there was a level of consistency. Not winning once in a blue and getting spanked the next time you tour. Where they didn't win they drew. For 8 years, imagine for one minute what it takes not to lose away for 8 years. Pakistan, UAE, India, Sri Lanka, England, India, Australia and NZ.

SA have already won in India, bottling is missing an opportunity you're never likely to get. That iconic moment, your first series win. It always means more. Like winning in Australia, our nemesis. I never take it for granted winning over there, we might never win again for that matter. But the 2016 victory doesn't compare to the one in 2008, not even close. That was an iconic series, one for the ages. I still remember where I was and how I felt.

Kallis won a series in India on his own, brilliant with bat and ball. Wasn't he man of the series or something? (Not sure, will have to go back).

Which series sir? 2000 series was the only one you guys won and Kallis played no role in it.

Amla has done it all. Australia, England, Sri Lanka, India.

Again ,which series has Amla won in India sir? By ur logic of India bottling in 2006 decider , ur "Non bottlers" did an epic bottling in Kanpur 2008 .

For 8 years, imagine for one minute what it takes not to lose away for 8 years. Pakistan, UAE, India, Sri Lanka, England, India, Australia and NZ.

And the goalpost has shifted from taking an opportunity to win away to not loosing. If that is the case , our stalwarts have performed in extreme conditions in the decider of Eng 2002 , Aus 2004, SA 2010 , NZ 2009, Pak 2004, Eng 2007.

SA have already won in India, bottling is missing an opportunity you're never likely to get. That iconic moment, your first series win. It always means more.

Now what all specifics you can bring into this to undermine others. SA series win in India is rare and ur mentioned guys have never performed to win in India . You can create ur own definition of bottling , but the fact is , Amla - Kallis - Smith etc never won a test series in India , it was only their predecessors. For them , there was an easy opportunity at Kanpur with India having the Chawlas n all. But they choked.

 

[BreadPakoda]

SA may not do well in India but did you seriously see the wickets they prepared in India?

Not worse than the one we got in the third test, which we won.

 

[WengerOut]

They left out one of the key sculpts though SA and Australia. The two Test nations are the holy grail. Even the series victory falls in the category of once in a blue moon. I understand SA, Australia and India. You only win in those countries once.

What innings did Laxman play that is so great?

SA were able to restrict Australia around 200 because we sucked their momentum. Any other team would have imploded in that situation. This exactly what I mean about creating chances out of nothing. We were dead and buried, Australia were looking at a 120+ lead at least. That 50/60 run lead was crucial in the end and needed to chase around 180 odd. 250+ would have been tricky.

Kallis and Amla would have won a lot for India because they are out and out match winners and complete team players.

South Africa won a two match Test series 2-0in India. 1-0 in Lanka. It's a series you bet.

So if you cant take once in an opportunity , u r a bottler. It was eventually a test match and we lost. The fact that Tendulkar had a horrendous decision go against him is another matter. By ur logic , Steve Waugh , Ponting etc never won in India and they are inferior to your superstars??? And Lara is useless ??? Akram , Younis n all are worthless??? You and ur SA bubble.

It is a fact , Kallis and Amla never won in India . The fact that their predecessors did that does not matter. What is stopping them from doing that if they are gold?

 

[AMSS]

Which match was this? The most recent test? Haysman takes it to a different level all together.

Yes, the 2nd test at PE. This happened during the course of de Villiers-Maharaj Partnership, if I remember correctly.

 

[WengerOut]

Played his part in England too with a brilliant 182*

[MENTION=132982]soso_killer[/MENTION]
Isn't this in the first test , after which he dint contribute many? Just asking because , in your own words , scoring a 130 odd at the start and goes missing afterwards is bottling. Or does 182 has an exception?

 

[WengerOut]

Yes, the 2nd test at PE. This happened during the course of de Villiers-Maharaj Partnership, if I remember correctly.

He did that during pre match programme at the start of the day and asked him to repeat during commentary. Jokers

 

[Adijazz1706]

[MENTION=132982]soso_killer[/MENTION] fighting a lone battle against PP's India contingent, keep it up mate

 

[WengerOut]

[MENTION=132982]soso_killer[/MENTION] fighting a lone battle against PP's India contingent, keep it up mate

He dint undermine Indian players only if you are thinking that way. It is his weird , everchanging logic that he creates on the spot , not just to glorify his countrymen , but to undermine others , that is the problem.

 

[Savage]

They still didn't do enough away, they are as accountable as their bowlers, if not more. What's so hard about that? Those guys often fell like a deck of cards, there's countless implosions.

The Man of the Series you're alluding to, is it the one where Australia basically rested their front line attack? Is that the one?

Dravid and Tendulkar came into discussion in a sense that Kohli should want to avoid the lack of impact those guys had. He has already won an ODI series in SA, where Sachin was spineless. He didn't just win it, he bullied it. I have high hopes for him. He seems to be cut from a different cloth and doesn't make excuses. I'll be disappointed if he turns out to be another statsguru, with no impact whatsoever. Can't lose 8-0 away from home..

Your posts are getting more idiotic.

Yes I'm talkin about that series in which Mcgrath was missing along with Warne.Warne was great but he never troubled the Indian batting lineup(check out his average against India).In Australia,Warne averaged over 60 against India whereas Mcgill averaged 50.78 in that series.It was warne who was lucky to miss that series not Indian batting lineup.That Australian attack was still better than most bowling attacks of other countries and it was better than Indian bowling attack which played in that series(for outside Sub continent conditions).

That was also Steve Waugh farewell series which featured two of the best batting lineups in the world
which included Sachin,Dravid,Ponting,Waugh,Sehwag,Hayden,Langer,Laxman,Martyn and Gilchrist.

Amongst all the big names,It was dravid who was given Man of the series.

Your attempt to denigrate Dravid's performance is a complete fail.Besides,He still won 2 more man of the series against full strength England bowling attack on tough conditions.

Despite being one of the Great batting allrounder,Kallis never managed to do that.In your words,Kallis still didn't do enough away.

In 2011-12,When India toured England and Australia.India's batting performance was no doubt bad as they were in the last legs of their career.But even if that Indian batting lineup featured 7 Bradmans or Viv Richards,India still wouldn't have been able to win those series.

The impact that you consistently are talking about players would Only depend on Team performance.In 2013,Kohli scored a magnificent century along with 96 in SA which helped India set the target of 450+.Match was still drawn.It wasn't Kohli fault that pitch became flat after 3rd day and Indian bowlers were not good enough to take 20 wickets.He was still appreciated for his efforts and was given MOM for his performance.

 

[soso_killer]

Which series sir? 2000 series was the only one you guys won and Kallis played no role in it.



Again ,which series has Amla won in India sir? By ur logic of India bottling in 2006 decider , ur "Non bottlers" did an epic bottling in Kanpur 2008 .


And the goalpost has shifted from taking an opportunity to win away to not loosing. If that is the case , our stalwarts have performed in extreme conditions in the decider of Eng 2002 , Aus 2004, SA 2010 , NZ 2009, Pak 2004, Eng 2007.



Now what all specifics you can bring into this to undermine others. SA series win in India is rare and ur mentioned guys have never performed to win in India . You can create ur own definition of bottling , but the fact is , Amla - Kallis - Smith etc never won a test series in India , it was only their predecessors. For them , there was an easy opportunity at Kanpur with India having the Chawlas n all. But they choked.

Kallis never won a series in India? The same series he was voted MOS in?
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/series/61857.html

Hack of a match winner.

SA has won a series in India, and drew twice. Remember we didn't lose any of those tours, SA drew them. I don't think they were in a winning position like India in any case. When you have a lead of 70+ last Test of a series at 1-1,and go on to implode and lose it. That is demoralising. To not win that series was criminal.

We've never performed to win in India? A whitewash and winning by an innings or 150+ on numerous occasions is not playing to win?

People can run in circles all they want, but I've mandated Kohli to win in SA/Aus, NZ and England, he is unlikely to play in Pakistan which is a pity as well. At the very least he must run SA and Australia close in their backyard. Similar to what Amla has done in India. Surpassing AB shouldn't be too hard (obviously depending on what AB does over the next two years). It's the likes of Amla that he'll have trouble with. AB should not be a bench mark for anything.

 

[soso_killer]

Your posts are getting more idiotic.

Yes I'm talkin about that series in which Mcgrath was missing along with Warne.Warne was great but he never troubled the Indian batting lineup(check out his average against India).In Australia,Warne averaged over 60 against India whereas Mcgill averaged 50.78 in that series.It was warne who was lucky to miss that series not Indian batting lineup.That Australian attack was still better than most bowling attacks of other countries and it was better than Indian bowling attack which played in that series(for outside Sub continent conditions).

That was also Steve Waugh farewell series which featured two of the best batting lineups in the world
which included Sachin,Dravid,Ponting,Waugh,Sehwag,Hayden,Langer,Laxman,Martyn and Gilchrist.

Amongst all the big names,It was dravid who was given Man of the series.

Your attempt to denigrate Dravid's performance is a complete fail.Besides,He still won 2 more man of the series against full strength England bowling attack on tough conditions.

Despite being one of the Great batting allrounder,Kallis never managed to do that.In your words,Kallis still didn't do enough away.

In 2011-12,When India toured England and Australia.India's batting performance was no doubt bad as they were in the last legs of their career.But even if that Indian batting lineup featured 7 Bradmans or Viv Richards,India still wouldn't have been able to win those series.

The impact that you consistently are talking about players would Only depend on Team performance.In 2013,Kohli scored a magnificent century along with 96 in SA which helped India set the target of 450+.Match was still drawn.It wasn't Kohli fault that pitch became flat after 3rd day and Indian bowlers were not good enough to take 20 wickets.He was still appreciated for his efforts and was given MOM for his performance.

Oh yeah that one, thought as much. Lee was missing as well IIRC.

Kallis didn't do enough? He won in every country he played in bar Lanka.

No it wasn't Kohli's fault, hence he needs to ensure he does well on pitches that are not flat as well. He has time to rectify that. He is at that stage Amla was at around 2008-2014, where away tours came thick and fast and basically dominated.
Kohli has played home over the last three years or so, this cycle of away tours is a great opportunity for him. The English are on their last legs, so is South Africa. NZ are no longer what they were under McCullum. Australia will be a bit of a problem with their young bowling attack over the next 6 years or so.
I see no reason why he can't win matches for his country.

 

[Cuts_and_cuts_hard]

By the way, did any of you guys cringe at that Saffie commentator literally imploring Allan Border to validate de Villiers status as one of game's great. Mike haysman I believe it was.

He first asked how he rated de Villiers. Border blurted out some everyday cricketing cliche to say yeah he was 'right up there'.

Not satisfied, this joke commentator asked Border to name some of those batsman he considered the very best. Border says, Sachin and Lara. Then he says Sunny Gavaskar. Border then paused and named Greg Chapell and Ponting. By this time there was over break and commentators paused, presumably for the ad break.

But I was watching the telecast on internet so there was no ad break and you could listen to commentators chat in the background. Mike haysman reminded Border that he forgot to list Kallis, and that he deserved to be named among those he listed on air.

Now when we came back to the commentary, haysman continued banging on this subject, reminding Border that if wanted to add more names to those he listed as the best he had seen? Border dismissively says, 'yeah, i am sure there are a few more I have forgotten, but those I named were the best'.

IT WAS HYSTERICAL!

Lmao does anyone have video of this? Sounds hilarious

 

[WengerOut]

Kallis never won a series in India? The same series he was voted MOS in?
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/series/61857.html

Hack of a match winner.

SA has won a series in India, and drew twice. Remember we didn't lose any of those tours, SA drew them. I don't think they were in a winning position like India in any case. When you have a lead of 70+ last Test of a series at 1-1,and go on to implode and lose it. That is demoralising. To not win that series was criminal.

We've never performed to win in India? A whitewash and winning by an innings or 150+ on numerous occasions is not playing to win?

People can run in circles all they want, but I've mandated Kohli to win in SA/Aus, NZ and England, he is unlikely to play in Pakistan which is a pity as well. At the very least he must run SA and Australia close in their backyard. Similar to what Amla has done in India. Surpassing AB shouldn't be too hard (obviously depending on what AB does over the next two years). It's the likes of Amla that he'll have trouble with. AB should not be a bench mark for anything.

You were in a winning position at Kanpur 2008. Batted first on a bad pitch, had India in trouble but allowed the tailenders to take a substantial lead and eventually crumbled . If that was not bottling , I dunno what is . And no , U insisted on winning the series at a tough away series ( not drawing which we ha e many) and ur stalwarts have not done that. Kallis was not the player of the series. I am not comparing the teams in which SA is clearly better. Within a relatively weak team , individuals can do only that much.

 

[soso_killer]

[MENTION=132982]soso_killer[/MENTION]
Isn't this in the first test , after which he dint contribute many? Just asking because , in your own words , scoring a 130 odd at the start and goes missing afterwards is bottling. Or does 182 has an exception?

I keep on asking about this 130 you're alluding to, to no avail.

 

[WengerOut]

I keep on asking about this 130 you're alluding to, to no avail.

I don't put a lot of emphasis on leading run scores in a series. Sachin was a master of scoring a huge 130+ score not out and disappear for the rest of the series.

YOUR own words

 

[Spectrum]

for now AB>virat

 

[Ab Fan]

Does JH Kallis have single iconic innings over his career of 166 tests?

Kohli will surpass him IMO. AB is not even in the picture.

Kallis was good in supporting roles only except the Pakistan series in 2006-07.

 

[soso_killer]

[MENTION=132982]soso_killer[/MENTION] fighting a lone battle against PP's India contingent, keep it up mate

what is going on over here is a classic case of escapism. Devoiding your good players of any responsibility to make them look better than they were. I will never do that. I've been an open critic of AB because he is a bottle neck himself. He has a few cheerleaders who attack me at the first site of criticism.

Take a look at his World Cup record. At first glance it looks pretty, with pretty little stats. But when we introspect his performances they leave more to be desired. I haven't done a full analysis, but on top of my head I can't remember him scoring a ton against the top 4 opposition in any ICC event (I stand corrected). We then go to the knock out stages, again there's a question mark. As much as his cheerleaders will protest, "he can't win the world cup on his own". The pertinent question is what did he do to ensure his team won a world cup?
He has done nothing as far as I'm concerned, he is as complicit as the rest of the group (if not more). I haven't even discussed the idiotic run outs. Would you have a AB in your world cup team ahead of a clutch campaigner like Yuvi? That would be madness, cricket games aren't won on a spreadsheet.

The same logic applies in Tests. People can make excuses about your Tendulkars of this world, but they were mental midgets. Refused to win away from home. How many times did they put their bowlers in winning positions in the first place? How many matches did they grab by the throat from non existent positions like your Amla's and Smith of this world?
The opposition scoring 400 in reply scoring 500+ isn't automatically a winning position.

We can all go on statsguru and look at columns until our souls are content. But there is one column we will never find, it's called BMT.

 

[soso_killer]

YOUR own words

That was a series defining knock, the rest is history.

 

[Savage]

Oh yeah that one, thought as much. Lee was missing as well IIRC.

Kallis didn't do enough? He won in every country he played in bar Lanka.

No it wasn't Kohli's fault, hence he needs to ensure he does well on pitches that are not flat as well. He has time to rectify that. He is at that stage Amla was at around 2008-2014, where away tours came thick and fast and basically dominated.
Kohli has played home over the last three years or so, this cycle of away tours is a great opportunity for him. The English are on their last legs, so is South Africa. NZ are no longer what they were under McCullum. Australia will be a bit of a problem with their young bowling attack over the next 6 years or so.
I see no reason why he can't win matches for his country.

Wow this is getting embarrassing.

You don't rate dravid performance in Australia highly but somehow you rate Kallis performance in India 2000.

That Indian team was good but inconsistent.India became much better side after Australia 2001 series at home.That series was iconic in which India fought back after the 1st test loss and win the series.They not only win the series but also broke the 17 consecutive winning streak of Australia.This is one of the major reason why Kolkata match is such an iconic moment for India.

lee played in 2 of the 4 matches.He averaged 59.50 with economy of 4.72.That's a pathetic performance.

 

[soso_killer]

You were in a winning position at Kanpur 2008. Batted first on a bad pitch, had India in trouble but allowed the tailenders to take a substantial lead and eventually crumbled . If that was not bottling , I dunno what is . And no , U insisted on winning the series at a tough away series ( not drawing which we ha e many) and ur stalwarts have not done that. Kallis was not the player of the series. I am not comparing the teams in which SA is clearly better. Within a relatively weak team , individuals can do only that much.

Did South Africa lose this series?

 

[WengerOut]

what is going on over here is a classic case of escapism. Devoiding your good players of any responsibility to make them look better than they were. I will never do that. I've been an open critic of AB because he is a bottle neck himself. He has a few cheerleaders who attack me at the first site of criticism.

Take a look at his World Cup record. At first glance it looks pretty, with pretty little stats. But when we introspect his performances they leave more to be desired. I haven't done a full analysis, but on top of my head I can't remember him scoring a ton against the top 4 opposition in any ICC event (I stand corrected). We then go to the knock out stages, again there's a question mark. As much as his cheerleaders will protest, "he can't win the world cup on his own". The pertinent question is what did he do to ensure his team won a world cup?
He has done nothing as far as I'm concerned, he is as complicit as the rest of the group (if not more). I haven't even discussed the idiotic run outs. Would you have a AB in your world cup team ahead of a clutch campaigner like Yuvi? That would be madness, cricket games aren't won on a spreadsheet.

The same logic applies in Tests. People can make excuses about your Tendulkars of this world, but they were mental midgets. Refused to win away from home. How many times did they put their bowlers in winning positions in the first place? How many matches did they grab by the throat from non existent positions like your Amla's and Smith of this world?
The opposition scoring 400 in reply scoring 500+ isn't automatically a winning position.

We can all go on statsguru and look at columns until our souls are content. But there is one column we will never find, it's called BMT.

You can live in ur own bubble where the softies like Kallis is great . Even if he scores 5 runs, that will be termed as great. I can gurantee that majority of people wont be accepting ur weird logic. When Kallis scores a 90 in join with 3 or 4 other great performances by others , it is termed as match winning when the reality was , Kirtsen was the guy who helped most. I like the way you are dodging the Kanpur test. Bravo !!!

 

[WengerOut]

Did South Africa lose this series?

Did they have a great chance to win ? Were they in a good position? Did they allow the tailenders of all batsmen to increase the lead? Did they collectively bottle in second innings?


BTW , Ind drew a series in SA with Tendulkar also scoring in the decider. I know you will come with another weird logic.

 

[Adijazz1706]

Wow this is getting embarrassing.

You don't rate dravid performance in Australia highly but somehow you rate Kallis performance in India 2000.

That Indian team was good but inconsistent.India became much better side after Australia 2001 series at home.That series was iconic in which India fought back after the 1st test loss and win the series.They not only win the series but also broke the 17 consecutive winning streak of Australia.This is one of the major reason why Kolkata match is such an iconic moment for India.

lee played in 2 of the 4 matches.He averaged 59.50 with economy of 4.72.That's a pathetic performance.

That Aus team had 1 good bowler in Gillespie, then they had Lee who wasn't great in Tests and some Brad Williams guy who was plain rubbish. Dravid has that one good tour of Aus, and one good teat in SA, that's it for those 2 countries