Virat Kohli vs AB de Villiers - Who is the better Test batsman?

[Last Monetarist]

In tests it is AB/Amla > Smith > Kohli/Root > Wiliamson

Not just going off of current form but entire careers. Smith may well end up with the most runs, highest average and centuries. I don't think he can surpass Amla's class or AB's inventiveness. Kohli and Root are having a great battle, with Root like 150 runs ahead. Williamson is a great little battler and his century against the saffers was one of the best last year, he may well end up alongside Root and kOHLI.

Convenient argument especially as these qualitative factors signify nothing...rien. Smith is on track to be the second highest averaging test batsman since Bradman, but no he isn't really as good as de Villiers because he can't play the scoop shot. I'd actually wager that there has not been a more inventive test batsman than Steve Smith over the past two decades simply because he has overcome a homespun technique to blunt the best bowling attacks of this era and consistently score runs in almost all conditions. Class on the other hand is in the eye of the beholder, and I can't really counter that watching Smith bat is anything but a chore if you're not Australian. That is no reason though to state Amla is a better batsman than Smith. It would be equivalent to stating Damien Martyn or Mark Waugh were the best batsmen of the ninenties and noughties.

 

[Hasan123]

Kohli will finish as the better test player.

 

[barah_admi]

Convenient argument especially as these qualitative factors signify nothing...rien. Smith is on track to be the second highest averaging test batsman since Bradman, but no he isn't really as good as de Villiers because he can't play the scoop shot. I'd actually wager that there has not been a more inventive test batsman than Steve Smith over the past two decades simply because he has overcome a homespun technique to blunt the best bowling attacks of this era and consistently score runs in almost all conditions. Class on the other hand is in the eye of the beholder, and I can't really counter that watching Smith bat is anything but a chore if you're not Australian. That is no reason though to state Amla is a better batsman than Smith. It would be equivalent to stating Damien Martyn or Mark Waugh were the best batsmen of the ninenties and noughties.

Like I said, Amla and AB have had almost complete careers. Amla has a 113 tests, AB 110. Smith has 61 and has had, what can be defined, as a terrific run of form from about 2013 onwards. It is especially impressive considering he started as a spinner and then a bits and pieces ODI cricketer.

BUT, how long can this average of 60 last? If he plays another 40-50 tests, where is that number going to be? What happens when he plays Pak in the UAE again? What happens in SA? What happens in his future tours to Bang, SL and Ind?

Amla and AB have proven themselves over and over in the last 10+ years. Which is why I said CURRENTLY they'd be ranked higher. WHo knows in the future. If Smith ends up with a career average of 60, he would have surpassed everyone, even SObers as he would likely have played more matches. However, numbers are not the only factor. If you're happy to go along with simply stats that is fine, but most go beyond numbers and look at technique, ability, entertainment factor etc.

But hey, its all down to what one wants to do, go off of actually watching the game or reading about it.

 

[Last Monetarist]

Like I said, Amla and AB have had almost complete careers. Amla has a 113 tests, AB 110. Smith has 61 and has had, what can be defined, as a terrific run of form from about 2013 onwards. It is especially impressive considering he started as a spinner and then a bits and pieces ODI cricketer.

BUT, how long can this average of 60 last? If he plays another 40-50 tests, where is that number going to be? What happens when he plays Pak in the UAE again? What happens in SA? What happens in his future tours to Bang, SL and Ind?

Amla and AB have proven themselves over and over in the last 10+ years. Which is why I said CURRENTLY they'd be ranked higher. WHo knows in the future. If Smith ends up with a career average of 60, he would have surpassed everyone, even SObers as he would likely have played more matches. However, numbers are not the only factor. If you're happy to go along with simply stats that is fine, but most go beyond numbers and look at technique, ability, entertainment factor etc.

But hey, its all down to what one wants to do, go off of actually watching the game or reading about it.

I believe 60 odd tests are a sufficient sample set to realize that Smith is the real deal. I am certain he won't average as high as 60 when his career ends but his run of form over the last 5 years has been simply extraordinary. The lad has scored runs everywhere apart from when the ball is swinging in England. He has more centuries than de Villiers in 70 less innings. And it's not merely statistics for me, Smith has generally scored tough runs when Australia needed him to perform. It's not as if he has been padding his stats like Mohammad Yousuf used to in fairweather conditions. In fact, it's because he has been scoring tough runs that I think he deserves to be rated above de Villiers at least.

I personally find de Villiers to be a merely good test batsman and don't even consider him to be in the top 5 batsmen in South African history, nor do I derive any joy from watching him bat. He is not a batsman in the classical mould like Amla, so there's not even that factor impelling me to rate him above Smith.

Amla is a different case, I love watching him bat and he certainly has amassed a considerable volume of decisive performances to warrant his inclusion in the pantheon of all-time greats even if his statistics aren't that eye-catching in light of numbers in the modern era. But I do feel that both Kohli and Smith will have indisputably surpassed the two South Africans by the time they retire.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

AB much better. Kohli has a lot of away tons but he had a lot of crappy tours as well. AB was never inconsistent in any country.

Kohli will surpass ABD eventually but don't let the 6 double hundreds fool you. AB has some unbelievable exceptional knocks in test.

 

[Ab Fan]

Let's be honest, both Smith and Kohli have a ceiling of a top-tier ATG. Actually they give that vibe of GOAT. I got that vibe from AB too but he has underachieved.

Not just de Villiers and Amla, I expect Smith and Kohli to surpass the likes of Sangakkara and Dravid too.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Let's be honest, both Smith and Kohli have a ceiling of a top-tier ATG. Actually they give that vibe of GOAT. I got that vibe from AB too but he has underachieved.

Not just de Villiers and Amla, I expect Smith and Kohli to surpass the likes of Sangakkara and Dravid too.

Smith is very close to ATG already. Kohli's stats are pretty deceiving, he is nowhere as consistent as his stats suggest. He also has boosted his test average bashing at home as well. AB has a superb all-round record.

 

[Wonderwoman]

Smith is very close to ATG already. Kohli's stats are pretty deceiving, he is nowhere as consistent as his stats suggest. He also has boosted his test average bashing at home as well. AB has a superb all-round record.

An avg of 60+ in Australia
55+ in SA, 70+ in NZ ... I think all these are Kohli's home grounds as well now?

Then only blip in Kohli's CV is England test record which every sane person knows he will rectify soon.

 

[Mamoon]

Kohli is a far better batsman than de Villiers in every format of the game.

 

[Ellipsism]

Smith is better than both in the longest form. Backing him to retire as the GOAT.

 

[VijayTamilan]

Smith is very close to ATG already. Kohli's stats are pretty deceiving, he is nowhere as consistent as his stats suggest. He also has boosted his test average bashing at home as well. AB has a superb all-round record.

.. And Smith hasn't? If anything, in the last few years, having India as your home is much tougher than having Australian roads as yours.

He was already a quality batsman before that England tour -- after which he ironed out a lot of the flaws that his run of bad form then, exacerbated. He simply is a much better batsman now; as good as any in the game.

Like Smith, Kohli has scored on those that seam, and those that don't consistently over the past 2 years. It's just that, Smith has been as good for 2 more years than Kohli has been.

Just recently, coming from a couple of years of averaging above75, dominating everywhere he played, Kohli had an enormous series in SA on hostile tracks, all with a woefully inept (at least during the time of the series) batting linep too. I'm not sure if Smith will be getting such pitches, for SA will likely be wary of the Aussie attack.

Kohli has been amazing, magical and hugely consisten over the recent years.
Smith has been amazing, magical, and has thus far been even more consistent in comparison to his reverred peer. Just sit back and watch these two modern greats entering the traditional prime for batsmen.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Smith is better than both in the longest form. Backing him to retire as the GOAT.

Australian greats have few great years and then they wimp out. Once his reflex starts deserting him he has no technique to fall back on. He could have few poor years before he retires.

 

[AMSS]

Australian greats have few great years and then they wimp out. Once his reflex starts deserting him he has no technique to fall back on. He could have few poor years before he retires.

Let us hope not. He is single handedly keeping Australia competitive in Tests and god knows the format can do with competitive match-ups.

 

[Corridor of Uncertainty]

AB has a knack of getting run out when the heat is on.

Something Kohli will never do.

 

[SandyB]

AB has a knack of getting run out when the heat is on.

Something Kohli will never do.

Kohli gets run out a lot too, but rarely in huge matches.

 

[Corridor of Uncertainty]

Kohli gets run out a lot too, but rarely in huge matches.

If AB had shown half the spine Markram is showing, it would have done him well.

On a related note, we all knew Amla won't last either - since it was a big chase.

 

[Tusker]

Ahhh the legendary thread where [MENTION=129948]Bilal7[/MENTION] said that chasing is easier than batting first in ODIs

Anyhow here are the stats from the last ODI series :

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...mplate=results;tournament_type=2;type=batting

Virat Kohli was 2 runs short of run tally of 5 SA batsmen put together Amla(154) + ABD(62) + Miller(107) + Markram (127) + Klassen (110)

Kohli made more runs in one inngs than every SA batsman could manage in the entire series.

Talk about ownage !!

 

[Tusker]

Ahhh the legendary thread where [MENTION=129948]Bilal7[/MENTION] said that chasing is easier than batting first in ODIs

Anyhow here are the stats from the last ODI series :

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...mplate=results;tournament_type=2;type=batting

Virat Kohli was 2 runs short of run tally of 5 SA batsmen put together Amla(154) + ABD(62) + Miller(107) + Markram (127) + Klassen (110)

Kohli made more runs in one inngs than every SA batsman could manage in the entire series.

Talk about ownage !!

[MENTION=53377]jeetu[/MENTION] a stats question for you ... has any other player outplayed 3 or more top scorers from the opposition like Kohli has done here in a 5 match ODI series ?

 

[Ab Fan]

Kohli is miles ahead.

Agree that AB played an excellent knock in first inning but again it is the fashion in which he got out in 2nd inning is what is more hurting.

Many legends of the game fail chasing 400+ but the problem was the stupidity to which he got out.

AB is the greatest talent out there but the greatest batsmen tag goes to Kohli or maybe Smith(as far as test format is concerned).

 

[Adijazz1706]

AB, but not by a lot. He tends not to have series like Kohli's recent Aus tour of India or his Eng tour where he is more Chris Martin yhan Martin Crowe.

 

[jeetu]

[MENTION=53377]jeetu[/MENTION] a stats question for you ... has any other player outplayed 3 or more top scorers from the opposition like Kohli has done here in a 5 match ODI series ?

Kohli was 6 match series

Some examples from 5 match series
2009-2010 Zimbabwe v. Kenya
Masakadza, H 467
Obuya, D O 197
Obanda, A A 127
Ouma, M A 127

2007-2008 Pakistan v. Bangladesh
Salman Butt 451
Shakib Al Hasan 192
Tamim Iqbal 147
Mahmudullah 130

2013-2014 Pakistan v. Sri Lanka
Mohammad Hafeez 448
Chandimal, L D 195
Dilshan, T M 182
Sangakkara, K C 168

You can find more such examples if you look into link below
http://www.howstat.com/cricket/Statistics/Batting/BattingHighSeries_ODI.asp

 

[jnaveen1980]

ABDV is at a stage where he is ready to give up the longer format.

 

[Savage]

AB de villiers.His ICC Peak rating is 935 while Kohli's is 912.

 

[Sachin136]

AB de villiers.His ICC Peak rating is 935 while Kohli's is 912.

Are Hayden, Yousuf, Hussey, Root etc better than Lara, Sachin, Waugh, and Dravid? The peak ratings are meaningless.

 

[Tusker]

Kohli was 6 match series

Some examples from 5 match series
2009-2010 Zimbabwe v. Kenya
Masakadza, H 467
Obuya, D O 197
Obanda, A A 127
Ouma, M A 127

2007-2008 Pakistan v. Bangladesh
Salman Butt 451
Shakib Al Hasan 192
Tamim Iqbal 147
Mahmudullah 130

2013-2014 Pakistan v. Sri Lanka
Mohammad Hafeez 448
Chandimal, L D 195
Dilshan, T M 182
Sangakkara, K C 168

You can find more such examples if you look into link below
http://www.howstat.com/cricket/Statistics/Batting/BattingHighSeries_ODI.asp

Thanks but I think only Masakadza has more runs than next 3. Safe to say that Kohli wins this one by some distance

 

[Savage]

Are Hayden, Yousuf, Hussey, Root etc better than Lara, Sachin, Waugh, and Dravid? The peak ratings are meaningless.

NO they are not better.Formers that you mentioned never really dominated away from home hence they are not rated as highly as latters.But I still don't find peak ratings as completely meaningless.

 

[Ab Fan]

Kohli is on his way to become a GOAT while de Villiers ATG status is debatable and rightly so. There is absolutely no comparison between the two.

 

[Princejain191]

Jeez, definitely AB here, the guy has longevity, runs against the best attacks and consistency over his career. Virat needs to have a great 2-3 years to get there. And never look at just the averages. Virat had one premium test series last year and he did horribly. Needs to stop having these lows. He has started well this year and hopefully continues that in England and Australia. This shouldn't be a debate, Virat hasn't done enough, or rather AB has done enough to win this hands down. People on PP have very short memories, just after U19 they were calling for Shubman Gill to get into Indian team and then this.

 

[Indiafan]

AB de villiers.His ICC Peak rating is 935 while Kohli's is 912.

So if a player achieves a rating of 975 first year he plays and has an average of under 10 for the next 10 years, he will be the best player ever according to your logic?

 

[Dead Ball]

Jeez, definitely AB here, the guy has longevity, runs against the best attacks and consistency over his career. Virat needs to have a great 2-3 years to get there. And never look at just the averages. Virat had one premium test series last year and he did horribly. Needs to stop having these lows. He has started well this year and hopefully continues that in England and Australia. This shouldn't be a debate, Virat hasn't done enough, or rather AB has done enough to win this hands down. People on PP have very short memories, just after U19 they were calling for Shubman Gill to get into Indian team and then this.

Kohli has the same number of test tons as ABDV having played almost 50 less tests. And unlike ABDV he hasn't had the chance to bully the hapless WI. Also has more away tons already.

By the time he has played the same number of tests as ABDV now , he will have 10-15 more test tons.

 

[Princejain191]

Kohli has the same number of test tons as ABDV having played almost 50 less tests. And unlike ABDV he hasn't had the chance to bully the hapless WI. Also has more away tons already.

By the time he has played the same number of tests as ABDV now , he will have 10-15 more test tons.

I am a Virat Kohli fan, but I am also (I believe) a sensible guy. No. of hundreds is not the criteria to judge these two. AB has a lot of very good 50s (Eg. 91 vs Aus'14, two fifties vs. India recently, 75 vs. Aus'18), which are better than many of his and Virat's hundreds (Eg. better than Virat's 200 vs Bangla and SL last year, AB's some tons against WI). Virat has had a problem with being prolific in tough conditions in test cricket given how good he has been in ODIs and can be in tests (was good in Perth'12, Johannesburg'13 and '18, Kolkata'16, etc) and that is why this tour was excellent for him. AB also plays on tougher pitches at home, India does serve up some of the flattest tracks often. AB had a period between 2010 to 2014 where he scored in England, Australia, NZ, UAE, India. Virat just needs to have that. Saying that, Virat is world-class too, just that bar should be high when we are measuring him against AB. And it is injustice to Virat too cos he hasn't played away much since 2014 and is 5 years younger in tests than AB.

 

[Dead Ball]

I am a Virat Kohli fan, but I am also (I believe) a sensible guy. No. of hundreds is not the criteria to judge these two. AB has a lot of very good 50s (Eg. 91 vs Aus'14, two fifties vs. India recently, 75 vs. Aus'18), which are better than many of his and Virat's hundreds (Eg. better than Virat's 200 vs Bangla and SL last year, AB's some tons against WI). Virat has had a problem with being prolific in tough conditions in test cricket given how good he has been in ODIs and can be in tests (was good in Perth'12, Johannesburg'13 and '18, Kolkata'16, etc) and that is why this tour was excellent for him. AB also plays on tougher pitches at home, India does serve up some of the flattest tracks often. AB had a period between 2010 to 2014 where he scored in England, Australia, NZ, UAE, India. Virat just needs to have that. Saying that, Virat is world-class too, just that bar should be high when we are measuring him against AB. And it is injustice to Virat too cos he hasn't played away much since 2014 and is 5 years younger in tests than AB.

I don't think playing on tougher pitches at home is an argument. He has been playing on those pitches since childhood and should be accustomed to it, same as any other batsmen playing on home pitches. Even if I buy your argument, it still doesn't explain his modest returns when playing overseas. ABDV is probably the most talented batsman I have seen since Sachin, but he has massively underachieved in tests. He has every gear that is necessary for a batsman, can grind it out or destroy attacks but he simply hasn't been consistent.

My point is , by the time Virat has played the same amount of tests as ABDV has now, he will be so far ahead it won't even be a comparison. Virat has scored in every country apart from England, which he should rectify in a few months.

 

[Smbhayi]

Kohli, coz ABD mostly gifts his wickets away after set, that's why his conversion rate is poor. For a test bat, he must look for daddy hundreds after set.

 

[Princejain191]

I don't think playing on tougher pitches at home is an argument. He has been playing on those pitches since childhood and should be accustomed to it, same as any other batsmen playing on home pitches. Even if I buy your argument, it still doesn't explain his modest returns when playing overseas. ABDV is probably the most talented batsman I have seen since Sachin, but he has massively underachieved in tests. He has every gear that is necessary for a batsman, can grind it out or destroy attacks but he simply hasn't been consistent.

My point is , by the time Virat has played the same amount of tests as ABDV has now, he will be so far ahead it won't even be a comparison. Virat has scored in every country apart from England, which he should rectify in a few months.

Weak arguments. AB averages 55 away+neutral (and 46 at home) and this includes his below-par start in tests. He has not been playing since childhood on SA pitches. And underachieved by averaging 50+ for a country from where only 1 other batsmen has ever averaged over 50 since readmission? Are you kidding me? He has done well in all countries and carries an aura that itself adds to the teams runs. And gears is one part of batting - technique, footwork, etc make up the rest.

Virat averages 63.5 at home and 45.4 away. Again brilliant, but his hundreds column and average have gained a lot by our pitches too. There is a reason why Smith, AB, Amla, etc average less than 50 at home. SA have had relatively tougher pitches at home than any other country.

Now Virat might overtake him later, but at this point, this debate is not fair on AB and I used to argue a lot against AB actually, but the hate he gets on PP is unwarranted. When India is playing against SA, I know whose wicket we want the most.

 

[Savage]

So if a player achieves a rating of 975 first year he plays and has an average of under 10 for the next 10 years, he will be the best player ever according to your logic?

Probably NO.

Not sure why you asking me this

 

[rhony]

We will know the answer after Ind vs Eng series.

 

[Savage]

Weak arguments. AB averages 55 away+neutral (and 46 at home) and this includes his below-par start in tests. He has not been playing since childhood on SA pitches. And underachieved by averaging 50+ for a country from where only 1 other batsmen has ever averaged over 50 since readmission? Are you kidding me? He has done well in all countries and carries an aura that itself adds to the teams runs. And gears is one part of batting - technique, footwork, etc make up the rest.

Virat averages 63.5 at home and 45.4 away. Again brilliant, but his hundreds column and average have gained a lot by our pitches too. There is a reason why Smith, AB, Amla, etc average less than 50 at home. SA have had relatively tougher pitches at home than any other country.

Now Virat might overtake him later, but at this point, this debate is not fair on AB and I used to argue a lot against AB actually, but the hate he gets on PP is unwarranted. When India is playing against SA, I know whose wicket we want the most.

Surprisingly,AB's away+neutral average is more than Steve Smith.

Pitches have been difficult in India also but Kohli has hardly done anything special on difficult pitches of India.

IMHO,Here are the 5 major series in India recently from batsmen perspective(considering difficult pitches,opposition bowling attacks & when runs were needed badly)

1 Australia vs India(2017)-: Kohli scored 46 @ 9.20

2 England vs India(2012)-: Kohli scored 188 @ 31.33.

103 of those 188 came in 4th test,When the series win hope was already gone.

3 SA vs India(2015)-:scored 200 runs in that series.But 132 out of his 200 runs were scored on dead rubber test which was also flattest pitch of the series.

4 Australia vs India(2013)-: His performance was good but was India's 5th best batsmen of the series after Pujara,Dhoni,Vijay and Dhawan.

5 NZ vs India(2016)-:Scored 309 @ 51.50.He failed in first two test when pitches were more difficult.First test pitch was spinner friendly and 2nd test pitch was seamer friendly(although his 45 was good in that test).Again scored 200 on flattest pitch of the series along with Rahane 188.

Sure he had other great series like England(2016) & NZ(2012) where he was India's best batsmen.But still his Home average of 63.50 suggests that he has performed like ATG at home (which is not true in this case).

 

[Mamoon]

Kohli is leagues above de Villiers as a cricketer. Their legacies will not even be comparable by the time both retire.

 

[Abdullah719]

Kohli is leagues above de Villiers as a cricketer. Their legacies will not even be comparable by the time both retire.

Perhaps, but that's not the topic of the thread.

Anyway, I think Kohli isn't there yet but will eventually surpass him as a Test batsman. He's too good (and determined) not to.

 

[Ab Fan]

Well, AB is a musician unlike Kohli.

 

[Dulex9]

It's difficult as Kohli and ABDV are consistent match winners who can take the game away. Both have proven themselves in tests and odis.

However, I would go for ABDV. This guy is a just out of this world. His amazing run scoring ability and lap sweeps for six.

 

[Mercurial]

AB de Villiers. Kohli has a long way to go in Test cricket.

 

[SLcric123]

Kohli is leagues above de Villiers as a cricketer. Their legacies will not even be comparable by the time both retire.

What's your take on AB inning today?

 

[jnaveen1980]

After good innings by A ... we say B will have a long way to go
After a good innings by B ... we say A has a long way to go.

Fact is they are all close to each other.

 

[hk031992]

Kohli is leagues above de Villiers as a cricketer. Their legacies will not even be comparable by the time both retire.

Lol. Its AB who is leagues ahead of an overrated test player like Kohli. There is no comparison here. The Kohli fan boyism is amazing. Anyone who has actually seen them bat knows Virat is like a high schooler compared to Kohli.

 

[soso_killer]

Kohli will have to win a series in three of these countries to be mentioned anywhere the likes of AB. NZ, AUS, Eng and SA.
He has a good enough team to do so.

 

[Ab Fan]

Smith didn't scored heavily in first two tests. A thread of Kohli vs Smith was bumped.

AB played a gem. Well again, another thread of Kohli vs AB is bumped.

Kohli's threads are getting bumped without him even playing cricket these days. That should give the answer as who is the player of the generation?

Although in tests, I would still say Smith but overall Kohli it is.

 

[English August]

Anyone who has actually seen them bat knows Virat is like a high schooler compared to Kohli.

You must be a massive Kohli fan if you think the only player he can be compared against is himself!

 

[Chrish]

Regardless of the result, this is as good of an inning as you will ever likely to see in entire lifetime against top-quality bowling attack.

 

[Chrish]

Smith didn't scored heavily in first two tests. A thread of Kohli vs Smith was bumped.

AB played a gem. Well again, another thread of Kohli vs AB is bumped.

Kohli's threads are getting bumped without him even playing cricket these days. That should give the answer as who is the player of the generation?

Although in tests, I would still say Smith but overall Kohli it is.

What a silly thing to say!

 

[Chrish]

Kohli will have to win a series in three of these countries to be mentioned anywhere the likes of AB. NZ, AUS, Eng and SA.
He has a good enough team to do so.

One player doesn't win the series; team does.

 

[yasir]

AB is the most gifted batsman since VIV, but he does not have temperament of Smith in test and Kohli in ODIs. Its hard to have discipline when you are so gifted, curse of genius

 

[Chief Destroyer]

Best way to describe them: AB is the epitome of physical genius and Kohli mental genius.

Not to say they don't excel in the other aspect.

On days they cross over, they look invincible.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Best way to describe them: AB is the epitome of physical genius and Kohli mental genius.

Not to say they don't excel in the other aspect.

On days they cross over, they look invincible.

YOu can see them together in the IPL. Kohli opening, ABDV at 3.

 

[giri26]

Fantastic so far from AB. Proves that he has a lot left in the tank still for the longer format.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Fantastic so far from AB. Proves that he has a lot left in the tank still for the longer format.

Yup. This is his first century in 3 years. So he must be super relieved.

 

[Ab Fan]

These 7 tests are going to be the ones remembered most in AB's test career. He has managed to change his test legacy with that.

While his counter-attacking 65 vs India on a live pitch was a great inning, this one at PE is an absolute masterclass.

An unbelievable exhibit of batting against a top quality attack at a freakish SR, putting his team from a precarious match situation to a really commanding one(a 140 run lead) and remained unbeaten too.

 

[BreadPakoda]

Kohli will have to win a series in three of these countries to be mentioned anywhere the likes of AB. NZ, AUS, Eng and SA.
He has a good enough team to do so.

No. His team isn't good enough. Bhuvi and Bumrah (still new) are the only two good fast bowlers, assuming Shami is on hold for some time. Kohli doesn't have a Rabada or a Starc in his team.

We direly need a good opener/ give more chances to KL Rahul.
Pujara isn't that effective overseas
Rahane needs to get selected in the first place

Our overseas test team currently is very dependent on a few players while the rest are average outside home. Beating the Ozzie team with a power packed pace attack is not easy for sub continent teams, neither is beating England.

 

[soso_killer]

One player doesn't win the series; team does.

No. His team isn't good enough. Bhuvi and Bumrah (still new) are the only two good fast bowlers, assuming Shami is on hold for some time. Kohli doesn't have a Rabada or a Starc in his team.

We direly need a good opener/ give more chances to KL Rahul.
Pujara isn't that effective overseas
Rahane needs to get selected in the first place

Our overseas test team currently is very dependent on a few players while the rest are average outside home. Beating the Ozzie team with a power packed pace attack is not easy for sub continent teams, neither is beating England.

The team Kohli has is way better than the team Angelo Mathews won a series with in England.
A player can be hugely influential in how his team performs away from home. Have to be willing to win tough matches in tough conditions or situation.
Even a dud like Dumminy put SA in a winning position in Australia when SA where facing a deficit of 180+ with 3 wickets left.
Or taking the series by the throat like Amla did in Australia 2012.

Different players, different scenarios but all these innings where quality and series defining. I'm not interested in meaningless runs, never have never will. We always had excuses about India not having a bowling attack to win away (never bought that theory one bit, India's rock-stars simply did do enough away). If Kohli scores consistent enough, India wins. It's simple really, runs on the board win matches.

 

[BreadPakoda]

The team Kohli has is way better than the team Angelo Mathews won a series with in England.
A player can be hugely influential in how his team performs away from home. Have to be willing to win tough matches in tough conditions or situation.
Even a dud like Dumminy put SA in a winning position in Australia when SA where facing a deficit of 180+ with 3 wickets left.
Or taking the series by the throat like Amla did in Australia 2012.

Different players, different scenarios but all these innings where quality and series defining. I'm not interested in meaningless runs, never have never will. We always had excuses about India not having a bowling attack to win away (never bought that theory one bit, India's rock-stars simply did do enough away). If Kohli scores consistent enough, India wins. It's simple really, runs on the board win matches.

Of course, having bowlers who can take 20 wickets in a test match isn't required at all.

Let's replace Rabada with Ashok Dinda, Ngidi with Vinay Kumar, Philander with Rajat Bhatia and put SA (or any team for that matter) against Ozzies at Perth. Surely with runs on the board Dinda will be as good as Rabada.

See, we have better bowlers now than before but you need a very good bowling unit to win games against the likes of Australia and England at their home (SL's win in the short 2 match series was an outlier, just like Zimbabwe drew against Pakistan in 2013).

Talking about the rockstarzz, well if you are referring to SRT, Dravid et. al - they are proven performers in alien conditions and did very well in every country. But again, a Munaf Patel can't run through batting line ups, even after an SRT has scored a 100.

Perhaps you would never be able to appreciate coz SA has never had sub-standard pace attacks.

 

[soso_killer]

Of course, having bowlers who can take 20 wickets in a test match isn't required at all.

Let's replace Rabada with Ashok Dinda, Ngidi with Vinay Kumar, Philander with Rajat Bhatia and put SA (or any team for that matter) against Ozzies at Perth. Surely with runs on the board Dinda will be as good as Rabada.

See, we have better bowlers now than before but you need a very good bowling unit to win games against the likes of Australia and England at their home (SL's win in the short 2 match series was an outlier, just like Zimbabwe drew against Pakistan in 2013).

Talking about the rockstarzz, well if you are referring to SRT, Dravid et. al - they are proven performers in alien conditions and did very well in every country. But again, a Munaf Patel can't run through batting line ups, even after an SRT has scored a 100.

Perhaps you would never be able to appreciate coz SA has never had sub-standard pace attacks.

boo-hoo, players make do with what they have.
South Africa has went to Asia with virtually third grade spinners. Not only where they competitive they have won a series everywhere. I've always wondered what our record would have been if we had a G. Swann. What about large enough coffers to prevent us from losing our best players (KP, Abbott, Trott, Rossouw etc)? But all these would be a bunch of excuses, we don't live in ideal world.
Great payers adjust to their teams strengths and weaknesses. SRT et. al did absolutely nothing. Australia used to play second grade attacks against India, they still would not win. Same in South Africa.
Yet SA would go to India and bully them to submission with no spinners. We would have won there more than once had we had a Swann. But that is just useless and meaningless wishful thinking.

 

[BreadPakoda]

boo-hoo, players make do with what they have.
South Africa has went to Asia with virtually third grade spinners. Not only where they competitive they have won a series everywhere. I've always wondered what our record would have been if we had a G. Swann. What about large enough coffers to prevent us from losing our best players (KP, Abbott, Trott, Rossouw etc)? But all these would be a bunch of excuses, we don't live in ideal world.
Great payers adjust to their teams strengths and weaknesses. SRT et. al did absolutely nothing. Australia used to play second grade attacks against India, they still would not win. Same in South Africa.
Yet SA would go to India and bully them to submission with no spinners. We would have won there more than once had we had a Swann. But that is just useless and meaningless wishful thinking.

Lol, when did this happen?

SA has won...what, 2 test matches in India is the last 18 years?

 

[hk031992]

Smith didn't scored heavily in first two tests. A thread of Kohli vs Smith was bumped.

AB played a gem. Well again, another thread of Kohli vs AB is bumped.

Kohli's threads are getting bumped without him even playing cricket these days. That should give the answer as who is the player of the generation?

Although in tests, I would still say Smith but overall Kohli it is.

Kohli threads are bumped because of the obsession that many Pakistanis have with India. Kohli isn't even close to being the best batsmen of his era. Unless you are referring to bilaterial Odi's, thats about it.

AB is in a different league all together.

 

[BreadPakoda]

Kohli threads are bumped because of the obsession that many Pakistanis have with India. Kohli isn't even close to being the best batsmen of his era. Unless you are referring to bilaterial Odi's, thats about it.

AB is in a different league all together.

What has AB done outside bilateral ODIs to be in a different league all together? Which World Cup has he won?

 

[WengerOut]

What has AB done outside bilateral ODIs to be in a different league all together? Which World Cup has he won?

AB has more centuries this week than Kohli.

 

[BreadPakoda]

AB has more centuries this week than Kohli.

Still a better argument than "Amla, ABD > Smith because Amla has class and ABD has inventiveness"

In tests it is AB/Amla > Smith > Kohli/Root > Wiliamson
Smith may well end up with the most runs, highest average and centuries. I don't think he can surpass Amla's class or AB's inventiveness.

You can't win.

 

[hk031992]

What has AB done outside bilateral ODIs to be in a different league all together? Which World Cup has he won?

Huh? AB rarely if ever has a bad series vs a strong test attack. Unlike Kohli recently vs Aus in home conditions or the dreadful batting vs England. Kohli is an excellent test batsmen, no question, and i would gladly take him over any of our (meaning Pak's) current batsmen but he is seriously vulnerable outside of the off stump relative to other great batsmen, especially in comparison to AB. AB is a better test player and i maintain that without any hesitation. If i can only have one player in my test team, De Villiers is an easy pick.

In Odi's, Kohli may well be ahead. Keep in mind though that AB batted extremely well in the last world cup and its only his team mates that let him down a little and NZ were just outstanding in the semi's. Not AB's fault. Kohli was far from great in the last world cup. Kohli is obviously ahead in bilaterials.

Overall (tests+odi's combined), i take AB without even the slightest bit of hesitation. He is a more versatile batsmen, is clearly better vs the best attacks, and is just better. Kohli fans like Mamoon will always make excuses to downplay AB while overrating Kohli but facts are facts.

Not that i think Kohli is bad at all. He is probably #1 in Odi's despite his WC disappointment last time around. He is still one of the better guys in tests. He just isn't as brilliant as some Pak fans make him out to be.

 

[JattMaula]

People finally came to light. ABD is the best. #endofdiscussion.

Kholi couldn't do jack against worse Aussie attack in India.

 

[WengerOut]

Huh? AB rarely if ever has a bad series vs a strong test attack. Unlike Kohli recently vs Aus in home conditions or the dreadful batting vs England. Kohli is an excellent test batsmen, no question, and i would gladly take him over any of our (meaning Pak's) current batsmen but he is seriously vulnerable outside of the off stump relative to other great batsmen, especially in comparison to AB. AB is a better test player and i maintain that without any hesitation. If i can only have one player in my test team, De Villiers is an easy pick.

In Odi's, Kohli may well be ahead. Keep in mind though that AB batted extremely well in the last world cup and its only his team mates that let him down a little and NZ were just outstanding in the semi's. Not AB's fault. Kohli was far from great in the last world cup. Kohli is obviously ahead in bilaterials.

Overall (tests+odi's combined), i take AB without even the slightest bit of hesitation. He is a more versatile batsmen, is clearly better vs the best attacks, and is just better. Kohli fans like Mamoon will always make excuses to downplay AB while overrating Kohli but facts are facts.

Not that i think Kohli is bad at all. He is probably #1 in Odi's despite his WC disappointment last time around. He is still one of the better guys in tests. He just isn't as brilliant as some Pak fans make him out to be.

So kohli is not allowed a couple of bad series huh !!!

Here are some of ABs

South Africa in Australia, 2005/06 . --- 25.33

Australia in South Africa, 2005/06 -- 21.16

New Zealand in South Africa, 2005/06 -- 28.8

India in South Africa, 2006/07 -- 17

Pakistan in South Africa, 2006/07 -- 9.6

South Africa in India, 2009/10 -- 22.66

PS: He has some early 30 avgs too . But i have avoided it.

 

[hk031992]

So kohli is not allowed a couple of bad series huh !!!

Here are some of ABs

South Africa in Australia, 2005/06 . --- 25.33

Australia in South Africa, 2005/06 -- 21.16

New Zealand in South Africa, 2005/06 -- 28.8

India in South Africa, 2006/07 -- 17

Pakistan in South Africa, 2006/07 -- 9.6

South Africa in India, 2009/10 -- 22.66

PS: He has some early 30 avgs too . But i have avoided it.

come on. I am not saying Kohli isn't allowed bad series. I think Kohli is one of the top 5 batsmen in the world today.

De Villiers is a very versatile player and it took him a while early in his career to put everything together. I did not count too many early series for Kohli either.

As a Pakistan fan, i will gladly take Kohli over the batters that we have in either format. I just think Kohli is clearly behind AB and Smith in tests and about as good as Williamson or Root.

Kohli > Any Pakistani batsmen right now in tests and odi's/

ABDV and Smith > Kohli in tests

Kohli = top 5 overall batsmen in the world.

 

[Ab Fan]

Kohli threads are bumped because of the obsession that many Pakistanis have with India. Kohli isn't even close to being the best batsmen of his era. Unless you are referring to bilaterial Odi's, thats about it.

AB is in a different league all together.

Ofcourse, Virat is the player of the generation. He was the best batsmen in SA tour in really tough bowling conditions. He has already played so many iconic knocks in odis while Smith is nowhere near and although AB is consistent but he has played only one such knock.

In tests, Smith is ahead but overall it is Kohli. AB is well behind both and should not be compared with the real legends of game.

 

[Mr.Q]

People enter into debates without looking at the broader picture. Kohli is already pretty much at the same level as AB is and will surpass him easily. Steve Smith is the only real challenge in front him.

I can’t say Kohli is ahead because ABD has played so many good knocks and Kohli hasn’t played as many in his much shorter career. But like I said, it’s just a matter of time.

There are two kinds of AB supporters here. 1)People who like him 2)People who hate Kohli/India or both. It’s better not to argue with the latter.

AB has more centuries this week than Kohli.

Hahaha good one.

 

[WengerOut]

come on. I am not saying Kohli isn't allowed bad series. I think Kohli is one of the top 5 batsmen in the world today.

De Villiers is a very versatile player and it took him a while early in his career to put everything together. I did not count too many early series for Kohli either.

As a Pakistan fan, i will gladly take Kohli over the batters that we have in either format. I just think Kohli is clearly behind AB and Smith in tests and about as good as Williamson or Root.

Kohli > Any Pakistani batsmen right now in tests and odi's/

ABDV and Smith > Kohli in tests

Kohli = top 5 overall batsmen in the world.

England series was one of his earliest and you included that. He dominated even better Aussie bowlers ( when Ryan Harris and Johnson was there ) in Australia , but you will obviously discount that. If he had scored in India , you would have told it is home conditions and is supposed to score. When he does not , you will say he can't score against good attack even on home conditions. It is just not a level battle field for Kohli with him having to pass different filter criterias from different people.

 

[hk031992]

Ofcourse, Virat is the player of the generation. He was the best batsmen in SA tour in really tough bowling conditions. He has already played so many iconic knocks in odis while Smith is nowhere near and although AB is consistent but he has played only one such knock.

In tests, Smith is ahead but overall it is Kohli. AB is well behind both and should not be compared with the real legends of game.

Nope. Smith and AB were brilliant in the last world cup. Kohli went missing. You can make a case for Kohli being marginally ahead in Odi's because he is brilliant in Odi's on a day to day basis. But he was playing his second world cup, in decent batting conditions, and plenty of experience behind him. He didn't account for much.

AB has played plenty of tough knocks in all sorts of conditions- swinging, seaming, spinning and flat. AB is not well behind Kohli, as a test player he is ahead. He is a better player vs the best attacks out there. So is Smith. In tests, there is no way i am taking Kohli over either guys.

AB is a legend and far greater than stats suggest. Thats why stats can sometimes be deceiving. I love Younis Khan for example, but i would be silly to suggest that he is in the same league as Ponting or Lara in tests even if his stats are up there. AB is already a legend.

 

[Ab Fan]

People enter into debates without looking at the broader picture. Kohli is already pretty much at the same level as AB is and will surpass him easily. Steve Smith is the only real challenge in front him.

I can’t say Kohli is ahead because ABD has played so many good knocks and Kohli hasn’t played as many in his much shorter career. But like I said, it’s just a matter of time.

There are two kinds of AB supporters here. 1)People who like him 2)People who hate Kohli/India or both. It’s better not to argue with the latter.



Hahaha good one.

The latter ones will start supporting whoever does better at that particular time and not just AB or Smith.

IMO, AB is a 8/10 in tests and 9/10 in odis while Kohli, IMO, has potential to be a 9/10 in tests(that can change depending on how he performs) and a 9.5/10 in odis.

Smith is a 9.5/10 in tests and a 7/10 in odis. Others are behind the three.

 

[hk031992]

England series was one of his earliest and you included that. He dominated even better Aussie bowlers ( when Ryan Harris and Johnson was there ) in Australia , but you will obviously discount that. If he had scored in India , you would have told it is home conditions and is supposed to score. When he does not , you will say he can't score against good attack even on home conditions. It is just not a level battle field for Kohli with him having to pass different filter criterias from different people.

I did not discount the Aussie series. I thought he was utterly brilliant in Aus, its the best i have seen him play. Thats why i call him one of the world's best. And i would not discount him playing well vs Aus at home. Sure, it wouldn't be the same as playing away but it still counts for something.

There is a reason why i said the guy is a genuinely great batsmen. I just think he is vulnerable outside the off stump more than AB or Smith are. That's why i rank those two ahead in tests.

The one positive thing Kohli has though is his age. AB is 34 and even if he continues, he only has another 2-3 years max of elite cricket left in him. Kohli has 6-8 years of top level cricket left, so he may surpass AB. Right now, i will take AB in my test team.

I have never seen AB have a bad series vs a strong attack. Even the couple of series where he has had a mediocre 30 something average series, he has usually played good knocks. The guy never goes missing for a whole series.

 

[WengerOut]

I did not discount the Aussie series. I thought he was utterly brilliant in Aus, its the best i have seen him play. Thats why i call him one of the world's best. And i would not discount him playing well vs Aus at home. Sure, it wouldn't be the same as playing away but it still counts for something.

There is a reason why i said the guy is a genuinely great batsmen. I just think he is vulnerable outside the off stump more than AB or Smith are. That's why i rank those two ahead in tests.

The one positive thing Kohli has though is his age. AB is 34 and even if he continues, he only has another 2-3 years max of elite cricket left in him. Kohli has 6-8 years of top level cricket left, so he may surpass AB. Right now, i will take AB in my test team.

I have never seen AB have a bad series vs a strong attack. Even the couple of series where he has had a mediocre 30 something average series, he has usually played good knocks. The guy never goes missing for a whole series.

Did you ever look at the stats that i posted ? And no , AB does not have many good scores in swinging or seaming pitches.

 

[JattMaula]

Did you ever look at the stats that i posted ? And no , he does not have many good scores in swinging or seaming pitches.

Are you arguing that kholee is on par with ABD in tests? Seriously?

 

[WengerOut]

Are you arguing that kholee is on par with ABD in tests? Seriously?

No. I am arguing he is better than AB.

 

[JattMaula]

No. I am arguing he is better than AB.

May God have mercy on your everlasting soul.