Virat Kohli vs Viv Richards on an ODI flat track? - Who would you back? | Clash of the titans

[On_the_up]

Based on this Gambhir > BC Lara because both their careers are over .

What are their stats?

 

[Tusker]

What are their stats?

Gambhir has a major innings in WC Final ( and also the 2007 T20 Final) BC Lara never did anything like that ... thats were the comparison would end based on your logic.

 

[On_the_up]

Gambhir has a major innings in WC Final ( and also the 2007 T20 Final) BC Lara never did anything like that ... thats were the comparison would end based on your logic.

Lara never got to play in any T20 or WC finals. But in the ones he played, he had a better average than Gambhir.

When the difference is 33 runs per inns, it is beyond conjecture.

 

[Tusker]

Lara never got to play in any T20 or WC finals. But in the ones he played, he had a better average than Gambhir.

When the difference is 33 runs per inns, it is beyond conjecture.

Not sure what you mean ... please post a link

 

[On_the_up]

In tournament finals (ODIs)
-------------------------------
Lara 19 matches 18 inns 507 runs HS 153 Avg 28.16
Gambhir 8 matches 8 inns 187 runs HS 97 Avg 23.37

 

[Tusker]

In tournament finals (ODIs)
-------------------------------
Lara 19 matches 18 inns 507 runs HS 153 Avg 28.16
Gambhir 8 matches 8 inns 187 runs HS 97 Avg 23.37

But Gambhir has two major WC Final inngs that trumps everything else .... isnt that your logic ?

But if you feel that is unfair on Lara whats your take on Lara Vs Kaif

Lara 19 matches 18 inns 507 runs HS 153 Avg 28.16 S/R 71
Kaif 8 matches 6 inns 221 runs HS 93 Avg 55 S/R 89

Here is the link :
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...s;team=4;team=6;template=results;type=batting

You can find quite a few ODI batsmen who will rank way above BC Lara using your flawed logic.

 

[thehub]

But Gambhir has two major WC Final inngs that trumps everything else .... isnt that your logic ?

But if you feel that is unfair on Lara whats your take on Lara Vs Kaif

Lara 19 matches 18 inns 507 runs HS 153 Avg 28.16 S/R 71
Kaif 8 matches 6 inns 221 runs HS 93 Avg 55 S/R 89

Here is the link :
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...s;team=4;team=6;template=results;type=batting

You can find quite a few ODI batsmen who will rank way above BC Lara using your flawed logic.

Hope he would take his own advice and stop here when he is way behind.

 

[thehub]

But Gambhir has two major WC Final inngs that trumps everything else .... isnt that your logic ?

But if you feel that is unfair on Lara whats your take on Lara Vs Kaif

Lara 19 matches 18 inns 507 runs HS 153 Avg 28.16 S/R 71
Kaif 8 matches 6 inns 221 runs HS 93 Avg 55 S/R 89

Here is the link :
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...s;team=4;team=6;template=results;type=batting

You can find quite a few ODI batsmen who will rank way above BC Lara using your flawed logic.

As per his logic Amla and abdv can never become best odi players until their team qualify wc finals few times and them scoring heavily on those games. That's not fair for them.

 

[On_the_up]

More people seem to have the same opinion as I do than you guys.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

People should see Kohli's average in each country, except for Sri Lanka he has 45+ average everywhere. Nobody can beat Kohli on flat track in ODIs

 

[Tusker]

More people seem to have the same opinion as I do than you guys.

so let me get this straight here .... so according to your logic ( which you claim many people agree ) players like Kaif, Gambhir, Chanderpaul , Gary Kirsten , Azharuddin, Cronje are all better ODI players than BC Lara ... Right ?


BTW please check out Gary Kirsten's stats in ODI finals ... they are more than twice as good as BC Lara


Link:
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...3;team=4;team=6;template=results;type=batting

 

[thehub]

More people seem to have the same opinion as I do than you guys.

Like I said people here and old analysts over hype past players. I would not blame you or nothing personal against you. You need to take their comments with pinch of salt. I have seen both playing their game. Cricket then and now has big difference. Those days players were not fit.. bowlers bowl fast for first 3 to 4 overs. After that their speed would be half their regular speed. Windies players and some from other nations were natural athlete. They were slightly better. Most of the remaining players were as good as players you find in English county or ranji tournament in India.

 

[Tusker]

Like I said people here and old analysts over hype past players. I would not blame you or nothing personal against you. You need to take their comments with pinch of salt. I have seen both playing their game. Cricket then and now has big difference. Those days players were not fit.. bowlers bowl fast for first 3 to 4 overs. After that their speed would be half their regular speed. Windies players and some from other nations were natural athlete. They were slightly better. Most of the remaining players were as good as players you find in English county or ranji tournament in India.

Thats a fairly balanced and factual assessment of things. But coming to terms with reality is a difficult thing when they have soo much emotional baggage attached to those era's.

 

[On_the_up]

so let me get this straight here .... so according to your logic ( which you claim many people agree ) players like Kaif, Gambhir, Chanderpaul , Gary Kirsten , Azharuddin, Cronje are all better ODI players than BC Lara ... Right ?


BTW please check out Gary Kirsten's stats in ODI finals ... they are more than twice as good as BC Lara


Link:
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...3;team=4;team=6;template=results;type=batting

Re people agreeing, I am referring to the poll on this thread not my logic or any arguments.

 

[On_the_up]

Thats a fairly balanced and factual assessment of things. But coming to terms with reality is a difficult thing when they have soo much emotional baggage attached to those era's.

Who said every top player in that era was better than their counterpart in today's age. We are not comparing any old player here.

 

[Tusker]

Re people agreeing, I am referring to the poll on this thread not my logic or any arguments.

many people do I have seen that on PP ... but forget others .. how about you ? Do you still think your logic is correct ? If so Gary Kirsten is a much better than Lara ... Right ?

 

[Abdullah719]

I'm finding this Gambhir (and others) vs Lara comparison a bit bizarre, simply because there is such a huge gap between them.

The reason why the comparison between Kohli and Viv exists with regards to their records in knockout matches is because people have started claiming that Kohli is already better than Viv and they're considered to be amongst the best ever in ODIs. Nitpicking is necessary to separate them.

 

[On_the_up]

many people do I have seen that on PP ... but forget others .. how about you ? Do you still think your logic is correct ? If so Gary Kirsten is a much better than Lara ... Right ?

In ODIs, yes why not? The sample size is large enough, the rest of the stats are similar, the overall average is comparable but Kirsten has a much better finals record. He stood up when it counted most.

In tests (the real thing) or overall as a batsman, obviously Lara wins hands down.

 

[Tusker]

I'm finding this Gambhir (and others) vs Lara comparison a bit bizarre, simply because there is such a huge gap between them.

The reason why the comparison between Kohli and Viv exists with regards to their records in knockout matches is because people have started claiming that Kohli is already better than Viv and they're considered to be amongst the best ever in ODIs. Nitpicking is necessary to separate them.

Forget Gambhir ... take Gary Kirsten and BC Lara thats a better comparison

IN ODI Finals:
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...e;team=3;team=4;template=results;type=batting

Overall:
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...e;team=3;team=4;template=results;type=batting

Based on the flawed logic of using ODI finals to separate two players Gary Kirsten beats Lara handily whereas if you know your cricket you will pick Lara in a heart beat.

 

[Tusker]

In ODIs, yes why not? The sample size is large enough, the rest of the stats are similar, the overall average is comparable but Kirsten has a much better finals record. He stood up when it counted most.

and this is why it becomes futile to argue with people who go by these mindless theories .... Let me tell you that Gary himself would pick Lara over him as a far superior player in every format starting from gully cricket.

 

[On_the_up]

and this is why it becomes futile to argue with people who go by these mindless theories .... Let me tell you that Gary himself would pick Lara over him as a far superior player in every format starting from gully cricket.

And Kohli with Viv.

 

[Abdullah719]

Forget Gambhir ... take Gary Kirsten and BC Lara thats a better comparison

IN ODI Finals:
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...e;team=3;team=4;template=results;type=batting

Overall:
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...e;team=3;team=4;template=results;type=batting

Based on the flawed logic of using ODI finals to separate two players Gary Kirsten beats Lara handily whereas if you know your cricket you will pick Lara in a heart beat.

Kirsten has never played in a WC/CT final and failed in knockouts in ICC tournaments that he played. His record in 'finals' is mainly reliant on tri-series, Sharjah Cups etc. which are not on the same level as an ICC tournament.

If Kohli goes and scores a hundred in a tri-series final, that shouldn't be equated with Viv scoring one in the 1979 World Cup final.

 

[On_the_up]

http://www.dnaindia.com/sport/repor...rat-kohli-other-players-tweet-selfies-2235973

Kohli's tweet:

What a memorable moment. With the greatest ever, Sir @vivrichards56. Words of gold from him

 

[FreakCricket]

no point of comparing oldies when most of us haven't seen him play, VK is the greatest batsman of modern era.

 

[Tusker]

And Kohli with Viv.

did you even understand what I said ?

 

[Tusker]

http://www.dnaindia.com/sport/repor...rat-kohli-other-players-tweet-selfies-2235973

Kohli's tweet:

What a memorable moment. With the greatest ever, Sir @vivrichards56. Words of gold from him

have you heard Viv commentate when Kohli is batting ?... What did you expect they will say about each other other than kind words for each other. lol

 

[Tusker]

Kirsten has never played in a WC/CT final and failed in knockouts in ICC tournaments that he played. His record in 'finals' is mainly reliant on tri-series, Sharjah Cups etc. which are not on the same level as an ICC tournament.

Same situation with Lara hence the comparison.

If Kohli goes and scores a hundred in a tri-series final, that shouldn't be equated with Viv scoring one in the 1979 World Cup final.

Agreed but Iam not the one that came up with that logic. According to [MENTION=13916]On_the_up[/MENTION] there is more pressure in the finals than in knock outs and to prove that point he is using ODI finals as example without realizing that Kohli only gets to play mainly in ICC Event finals as India hardly plays in any Tri-series which used to happen regularly in the 80s and 90s.

 

[On_the_up]

have you heard Viv commentate when Kohli is batting ?... What did you expect they will say about each other other than kind words for each other. lol

So Kohli was being humble/kind etc and hypothetically Kirsten will actually say the truth?

 

[On_the_up]

Let see where Kohli would be if he had to face even the top bolwers of the recent past i.e. Wasim/Waqar/Ambrose/Walsh/Warne/Mcgrath/Murali etc

He started when all of these guys had retired. Murali might be the only one playing but near the tail end of his career.

 

[Tusker]

So Kohli was being humble/kind etc and hypothetically Kirsten will actually say the truth?

that was a tongue in cheek comment about Gary

Please open a thread comparing Gary Kirsten and Lara in ODIs and have a Poll ... see if anyone will pick Gary over Lara.

 

[Tusker]

Let see where Kohli would be if he had to face even the top bolwers of the recent past i.e. Wasim/Waqar/Ambrose/Walsh/Warne/Mcgrath/Murali etc

He started when all of these guys had retired. Murali might be the only one playing but near the tail end of his career.

The only ones that Viv played against out of those bowlers are Wasim and Waqar and he Avgs 38 in those matches ... nothing extra ordinary.

 

[volcyz]

Give Viv a Modern day bat and watch the carnage

 

[CadPakFan]

I never said that, I'm just saying if Viv Richards used the bats everyone uses nowadays and played on the short boundaries he would be 100x more destructive then all the big hitters like Maxwell, Butler and etc.

 

[CadPakFan]

You mean to say other current players besides Kohli not using bigger bats ?

I never said that, I'm just saying if Viv Richards used the bats everyone uses nowadays and played on the short boundaries he would be 100x more destructive then all the big hitters like Maxwell, Butler and etc.

 

[Sadevdesai]

People can Badmouth Kohli all they want ..... but when you compare him against Viv Richards .... it says all !!!!

 

[SL_Fan]

Viv is the king of ODIs no doubt about that. While Kohli probably has the best chance of getting to that sort of level he still has a long way to go. Viv has pretty much ticked off all the boxes and then some.

 

[Titan24]

again as expected overhyping players of the past with nothing to back up.

Lol! an avg of 47 and SR of 90 in the era where nobody averaged close to 50's in ODIs and strike rate of 70 above was considered good. Doesnt seem overhype to me.

Bats were much smaller than and pitches were much more difficult. To prove the fact look at the bowling averages of that time and compare them with the current era and look at the batiing averages of current era where atleast 5 batsmen; Virat, AB, Hash, Dhoni and Babar average in 50's while Williamson and root are not far behind.

On any wicket in ODIs I would pick Vic Richards over Virat even with his stats of that era and if there would have been a stats conversion mechanisms of the eras, just imagine where the stats would have been of Viv considering that his strike rate is almost same as Virat who plays in current era.

 

[thehub]

Lol! an avg of 47 and SR of 90 in the era where nobody averaged close to 50's in ODIs and strike rate of 70 above was considered good. Doesnt seem overhype to me.

Bats were much smaller than and pitches were much more difficult. To prove the fact look at the bowling averages of that time and compare them with the current era and look at the batiing averages of current era where atleast 5 batsmen; Virat, AB, Hash, Dhoni and Babar average in 50's while Williamson and root are not far behind.

On any wicket in ODIs I would pick Vic Richards over Virat even with his stats of that era and if there would have been a stats conversion mechanisms of the eras, just imagine where the stats would have been of Viv considering that his strike rate is almost same as Virat who plays in current era.

If India had 4 great fast bowlers like windies had and number of minnows reduced to 2 instead of 4. Yes you would have seen big gap between virat and others.