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Was removing Mickey Arthur the wrong decision?

Saj

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He wasn't liked by the media and he wasn't liked by some fans.

But he seemed to get the best out of quite a few of the Pakistani players and instil some discipline in the side. His relationship with most of the players was pretty good too.

The performances were a mixed bag and not earth shattering, but there were some good times.

Do you think PCB made a blunder by removing Mickey from the job?
 
If we were going to hire Misbah it would have been better to keep Mickey to give PCB time to succession plan. I understand why Mickey was sacked, but hiring Misbah was the wrong decision.
 
Replacing a man who was earned his job on merit, hard work and qualifications with a person who has been appointed on zero experience, qualifications but reputation is always a recipe for disaster.

You could replace The head coach of a County that is an an experienced level 3/4 coach with Misbah and that would be a wrong decision. It will only end in disaster.
 
Mickey Arthur may have also been hampered by our dubious selectors and lack of support for wanting to rid Pakistan of some seniors who were not performing to justify their place. However, he made wrong call on Asif Ali and did not deal with Sohail Khan fairly, his fitness could have been sorted.
 
Yes. He transformed our white ball batting making 300+ scores the norm, gave us an ICC tournament win, a #1 ranking in T20s and was a terrific mentor to the youngsters like Babar.

His Test results may look bad but he was let down by senior players.

Knew we'd rue the day we let him go.
 
Off course it was speically when he's been replaced by beghairat misbah.
 
Removing Mickey Arthur was not a mistake, he didn't deserve an extension. Selecting a mediocre inexperienced coach as his replacement was the bigger blunder.
 
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Definitely was a blunder, but I guess PCB was almost forced into it, and honestly - Arthur brought it on to him as well. May be some outside influences forced PCB to take a drastic decision because Arthur himself sounded like he had cracked an extension. He didn’t help his course, but I believe the show by PCT was despite having Arthur, not because of Arthur.

BUT, the bigger blunder was that they didn’t fix any replacement (or pre-selected a guy with zero credentials) - I hope 🤞, I f indeed Misbah is sacked, they have a worthy replacement ready.
 
I would have loved to have seen Mickey or a professional overseas coach given the duo role Misbah initially got.
 
He was a bad coach for Pakistan. Misbah is worse. Why not find someone GOOD for a change
 
Yes, it was. And I'm not saying this in hindsight. I knew when Mickey was removed that we would come to regret the decision.

He took us to #1 in T20s. we were joint fourth in the World Cup, which was frankly an overachievement, but it was a sign that his vision was finally being realized. Yes, our record in Tests was poor, but how many Tests did we play under Mickey's tenure? Only 19 Tests in 3 years. That's just not enough matches.

Mickey deserved a five-year tenure. With this restructured domestic system and more home matches, he would've been able to extract even better performances from the players.

Truth is, we traded in a Lexus for a Ford Fiesta (Misbah) and the results are no surprise.
 
Sensible. Keep an average to mediocre coach like Mickey Arthur, based on the assumption that the person you are about to hire can be much worse. I have another idea.

Get a Few Smart People in the Room and Begin to Write Down the Qualities that Make a Great Coach. Then go out into the marketplace to find a Coach that Fits Those Qualities.
 
Mickey Arthur didn't help himself at times but there's no denying that our LOI sides were much better than now. Specially after the performances of Misbah. So to answer your question, yes I would have kept Mickey.
 
Also, Saj, which coach has Pakistan's media liked? From Miandad to Misbah and everyone in between (Pybus, Lawson, Whatmore, Waqar, Mickey), our media doesn't like anyone because they don't understand the game or care to learn anything beyond what's on the scorecard.
 
Mickey Arthur may have also been hampered by our dubious selectors and lack of support for wanting to rid Pakistan of some seniors who were not performing to justify their place. However, he made wrong call on Asif Ali and did not deal with Sohail Khan fairly, his fitness could have been sorted.

This is obvious and true but again, a basic comprehension that our PCB admins can't get the grasp of it.

This is two fold problem.

Good coach and good players.

With hiring a good new coach, we must provide him with good candidates to be groomed.

And then coach should be allowed to work freely. It's not always easy for a foreign coach to work in Pakistan where he may have more then one boss to please.
 
In hindsight, absolutely yes.

Could have been much better if they went with any/all of below 3 options:
1) kept him as head coach, added professional qualified specialist coaches for batting, fielding and bowling to work with NCA, Shaheens team and occasionally national team.
2) brought Mohammad Wasim as chief selector
3) replaced him with professional qualified head coach allowed to bring his own team of specialist coaches and analyst and role in working with NCA/Shaheens/U19 coaches. e.g. Kirsten, Andy Flower, Dean Jones (obviously n/a now), etc.

key item being professional qualified, having sufficient experience of coaching modern teams.
 
In hindsight, absolutely yes.

Could have been much better if they went with any/all of below 3 options:
1) kept him as head coach, added professional qualified specialist coaches for batting, fielding and bowling to work with NCA, Shaheens team and occasionally national team.
2) brought Mohammad Wasim as chief selector
3) replaced him with professional qualified head coach allowed to bring his own team of specialist coaches and analyst and role in working with NCA/Shaheens/U19 coaches. e.g. Kirsten, Andy Flower, Dean Jones (obviously n/a now), etc.

key item being professional qualified, having sufficient experience of coaching modern teams.

Definitely, needed more time
 
Under Mickey's watch, we had the following results

Drew 2-2 against England in 2016
Lost the ODI series 4-1 against England in 2016
Won the sole T-20 against England in 2016
Beat the WI 3-0 in UAE in T-20's in 2016
Beat the WI 3-0 in UAE in ODI's in 2016
Beat the WI 2-1 in UAE in the tests in 2016
Lost to NZ 2-0 in NZ in tests in 2016
Lost to Australia 3-0 in Australia in tests in 2016
Lost to Australia 4-1 in Australia in ODI's in 2017
Beat the WI 4-1 in WI in T-20's in 2017
Beat the WI 2-1 in WI in ODI's in 2017
Beat the WI 2-1 in WI in Tests in 2017
Won the CT 2017
Lost to Sri Lanka 2-0 in UAE in tests in 2017
Beat Sri Lanka 5-0 in ODI's in UAE in 2017
Beat Sri Lanka 4-0 in T-20's in UAE in 2017
Lost to NZ 5-0 in NZ in ODI's in 2018
Beat NZ 2-1 in NZ in T-20's in 2018
Won against Ireland 1-0 in Ireland in a test 2018
Drew against England 1-1 in England in test matches in 2018
Beat Scotland 2-0 in Scotland in T-20's in 2018
Won the T-20 tournament in Zimbabwe in 2018
Beat Zimbabwe in T-20's 3-0 in Zimbabwe in 2018
Beat Zimbabwe in ODI's 5-0 in Zimbabwe in 2018
Lost Asia Cup ODI tournament in 2018
Beat Australia 1-0 in tests in UAE in 2018
Beat Australia 3-0 in T-20's in UAE in 2018
Beat NZ 3-0 in T-20's in UAE in 2018
Drew against NZ 1-1 in ODI's in UAE in 2018
Lost to NZ 2-1 in Tests in UAE in 2018
Lost 3-0 to South Africa in tests in South Africa in 2019
Lost 3-2 to South Africa in ODI's in South Africa in 2019
Lost 2-1 to South Africa in T-20's in South Africa in 2019
Lost 5-0 to Australia in ODI's in UAE in 2019
Lost 5-0 to England in ODI's in England in 2019
Lost the ODI WC in England in 2019

I am not including his PSL record above which is also far from impressive

The above is far from a steller record and it was clear he had let his personal likes, dislikes influence the team for far to long, he made many blunders which he had many opportunities to correct in timely fashion but he didn't, he also had a bad habit of throwing players under the bus in press conferences. Not a big fan of his replacement but no one can argue against the PCB decision of not giving him a fresh contract
 
He wasn't liked by the media and he wasn't liked by some fans.

But he seemed to get the best out of quite a few of the Pakistani players and instil some discipline in the side. His relationship with most of the players was pretty good too.

The performances were a mixed bag and not earth shattering, but there were some good times.

Do you think PCB made a blunder by removing Mickey from the job?

Put it this way - i'd take him back tomorrow if he was willing to ditch SL for us.

And he probably is :)) he fell in love with Pakistan during his time here and wanted 2 more years so badly.

Makes it even worse how we treated him :( Wasim Khan got what he deserved from appointing Misbah in the fashion that he did.
 
It was always a wrong decision. Since Bob Woolmer we found a great coach who actually loves our cricket. He is dearly missed.
 
Yes, it was. And I'm not saying this in hindsight. I knew when Mickey was removed that we would come to regret the decision.

He took us to #1 in T20s. we were joint fourth in the World Cup, which was frankly an overachievement, but it was a sign that his vision was finally being realized. Yes, our record in Tests was poor, but how many Tests did we play under Mickey's tenure?
Only 19 Tests in 3 years. That's just not enough matches.

Mickey deserved a five-year tenure. With this restructured domestic system and more home matches, he would've been able to extract even better performances from the players.

Truth is, we traded in a Lexus for a Ford Fiesta (Misbah) and the results are no surprise.

We played 28 tests under Mickey's tenure not 19. Won 10 and Lost 17.
 
Also, Saj, which coach has Pakistan's media liked? From Miandad to Misbah and everyone in between (Pybus, Lawson, Whatmore, Waqar, Mickey), our media doesn't like anyone because they don't understand the game or care to learn anything beyond what's on the scorecard.

haha fair point.

If the PCB had their heart set on making Misbah the Head Coach one day, what they should have done was make him Mickey's understudy for a year or two, then given him a domestic coaching role and then checked to see what progress he had made as a coach.
 
Removing him wasnt a wrong decision as there was statistical/performance basis for it but, appointing a coach who has never coached at any level in his life was the wrong decision.
 
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Mickey got the best out of the talent given to him. We need to understand that our current crop is not world beaters. In our WC campaign, we punched above our weight by beating teams like NZ, England, and SA. Not even in our wildest imaginations can we expect this current Pak team to beat these three teams back to back.

Removing Mickey was a completely wrong decision and was only done to undo the decision of the previous management. It is hard to think that they expected a mediocre player with zero coaching experience to turn the same bunch of players into world beaters and if they did, then hats off to them for their confidence!

Mickey/Inzi duo was taking this team in the right direction. Consistently scoring 300+ runs in ODIs is something that we cannot even dream of atm. But this team did it as recently as the series vs England right before the WC. Yes, I understand that we were blanked 5-0 but that was also against a freakish Eng batting side. I'd be surprised if this bunch can even cross 280 against BD today!

Poor poor decision by PCB and a decision that we'll pay for for a long time.
 
Definitely was a blunder, but I guess PCB was almost forced into it, and honestly - Arthur brought it on to him as well. May be some outside influences forced PCB to take a drastic decision because Arthur himself sounded like he had cracked an extension. He didn’t help his course, but I believe the show by PCT was despite having Arthur, not because of Arthur.

BUT, the bigger blunder was that they didn’t fix any replacement (or pre-selected a guy with zero credentials) - I hope ��, I f indeed Misbah is sacked, they have a worthy replacement ready.

People say Mickey isn’t that great of a coach... but these people are Aussie, Indian or English / SA fans. They have options of a lot of higher quality coaches that are superior to Mickey.

For Pakistan Mickey was an elite level coach. His only blunder was playing inferior pace attacks in UAE despite having access to spinners. He called out the players that needed to be called out and generally made sure the squads playing were playing on merit.

He wasn’t a tactical failure like Waqar and wasn’t afraid to bring out the danda unlike Whatmore.

And ofc... infinitely superior to Misbah who looked clueless tactically as a captain and only got the coach gig for being a “nice guy”.

People only judge a coach purely on results but for Pakistan there was one Bob Woolmer who was a fantastic coach but came during a time where the sharp decline in our cricket began. Still he was able to unite all the big egos in the team. May he Rest In Peace.
 
Didn't know what you had until you lost it.

There's still time to kick the fraud out before he does further damage.
 
Mickey didn’t understand Asia but understood not to undermine the kingmakers from HomeworkGate.

He stayed with MisYou until they were dragged into retirement and built a team of young players that had mediocre results.

He had partnered with Rixon, improved our fielding and fitness in the meanwhile.

But Misbah...
 
Mickey didn’t understand Asia but understood not to undermine the kingmakers from HomeworkGate.

He stayed with MisYou until they were dragged into retirement and built a team of young players that had mediocre results.

He had partnered with Rixon, improved our fielding and fitness in the meanwhile.

But Misbah...

I think Mickey at best would have been marginally better than Misbah, he had his issues and limitations but Misbah has been so shocking, directionless that everyone now misses Mickey's tenure with Nostalgia. Mickey perhaps made the mistake of focusing excessively on the ODI and T-20 formats at the expense of our test team but atleast the man had some semblance of a vision. Misbah in comparison is just proceeding with the job on a 9-5 basis
 
I think Mickey at best would have been marginally better than Misbah, he had his issues and limitations but Misbah has been so shocking, directionless that everyone now misses Mickey's tenure with Nostalgia. Mickey perhaps made the mistake of focusing excessively on the ODI and T-20 formats at the expense of our test team but atleast the man had some semblance of a vision. Misbah in comparison is just proceeding with the job on a 9-5 basis

It was obvious to anyone with any sense.

It’s not just how Misbah got the job (conflict of interest, PCB backstabbing MA) and his poor results (whitewashes and low rankings) but his entire person.

Everywhere he goes, Misbah has lacked any original thinking. He reminds me of Korchnoi’s quote about Karpov: “A good intelligent pupil. Like a fish, he can only do what he is instructed”.

If Misbah had a rebirth, he would have been reborn as an Angolan dictator or Yasir Shah. In both cases, they lack any formal understanding of their main occupation.
 
Under Mickey we were on our way to become a v good ODI team. With Tests it was a question mark, but I personally feel reason of decline in Test cricket is that we don’t have quality Test players to match the big 4 teams. Its just a sad reality atm.
 
No. We were declining as a team our players losing form and we were losing matches. No sense how to succeed in asia. Unprofessional in the media too. He had already been there for a long time.

Misbah was just the wrong choice. Should have got someone else. Anyone with experience of coaching.

Really though the pivotal point was when around CT 2017. We had Fakhar, Hasan, Amir, Babar, shadab, Imad in form. Sarfraz performing as captain. Haris was there but unused. Imam, Shaheen came later in too. You could even count Sharjeel who got banned under his own fault, but never hit the heights he was capable of even while he was playing. We had a bunch of players who in form could let us field a decent team. We needed a coach who could keep all those guys or even most in form. Find a way to keep them performing, fix their weaknesses and develop new strategies for them. They all pretty much fell away. The more games they played, the worse they got. Not entirely Mickey's fault, but a good coach may have prevented that. Instead Misbah's just taken over a team which has been in decline since CT 2017, despite an unexpected influx of talented players (compared to the virtually barren years leading up to that 2017 where we pretty much just had umar akmal who failed). I don't think people realise the opportunity that was there. Look at domestic now, you can not even find one new player that can come into the team and impress anymore.
 
Yes yes yes!!!
Our LOI game improved no end, and the tests turnaround was always going to take time. He was backing the right kind of players in tests, was just being let down by Asad and azhar. He needed more from them and Yasir when the likes of Shaheen, Abbas, Shan, imam, Babar, Rizwan ( he was in and around the squad) faheem, shadab,etc were settling in.
We were not going to become n all conquering test side in the 2 yrs after misyou left.

The process was working fine.
 
Under Mickey we were on our way to become a v good ODI team. With Tests it was a question mark, but I personally feel reason of decline in Test cricket is that we don’t have quality Test players to match the big 4 teams. Its just a sad reality atm.

I don't think that. We declined as an ODI team since 2017. What kept happening was players would debut, and for a few months perform well, and then decline. I was genuinely excited that CT 2017 would be a turning point, but it wasn't and now domestic talent coming in just isn't there. I would have expected the longer the coach works with the players, the better they would come, not the reverse.
 
Mickey Arthur was a very good coach with one blind spot - he didn't really understand how to win in the UAE. Then again, Inzamam didn't really provide him with ideal squads for his UAE series.

Coaching and captaincy are not the same thing - ask Andrew Strauss, Clive Lloyd, Graeme Smith et al.

Misbah had no qualifications to coach even a domestic team, and he unfortunately immediately reverted to the worst of his ultra-conservative principles.

Pretty much any qualified coach would have been better than Misbah.
 
haha fair point.

If the PCB had their heart set on making Misbah the Head Coach one day, what they should have done was make him Mickey's understudy for a year or two, then given him a domestic coaching role and then checked to see what progress he had made as a coach.

This.

Professional cricket boards like Aus and England are grooming Ricky Ponting to take over from JL and England change their backroom staff every 2 series- Trescothick, Jon Lewis, Graham Thorpe ,Collingwood have all been involved recently.

But Wasim Khan is super professional because he speaks such great English
 
Removing Mickey was correct but downgrading to Misbah was incorrect as well. We took one step forward but three steps back.
 
This is why Pakistan never learns.

Removing mickey was right decision.

But removing him with same type of personality who throws others under the bus when something goes wrong was the wrong decision.

Just because current coach is bad, that doesn't automatically makes the previous coach better.
 
People say Mickey isn’t that great of a coach... but these people are Aussie, Indian or English / SA fans. They have options of a lot of higher quality coaches that are superior to Mickey.

For Pakistan Mickey was an elite level coach. His only blunder was playing inferior pace attacks in UAE despite having access to spinners. He called out the players that needed to be called out and generally made sure the squads playing were playing on merit.

He wasn’t a tactical failure like Waqar and wasn’t afraid to bring out the danda unlike Whatmore.

And ofc... infinitely superior to Misbah who looked clueless tactically as a captain and only got the coach gig for being a “nice guy”.

People only judge a coach purely on results but for Pakistan there was one Bob Woolmer who was a fantastic coach but came during a time where the sharp decline in our cricket began. Still he was able to unite all the big egos in the team. May he Rest In Peace.

Exactly. Elite coaches are not willing to relocate to Pakistan. Mickey was the best of the options available to Pakistan.
 
Everyone talks about the improvement under Mickey in white ball cricket, but Pakistan lost 24 out of the last 34 ODIs under Arthur.

That is a sack worthy record. No serious team will employ a coach after such associate level track record.

In Test cricket, he kept shelling home Tests and yes he had done well in T20I cricket, but that slide was inevitable.

He already lost his last two T20I series (SA, ENG) and there was no way he was going to win in Australia and England in 2020.

Sure he would have avoided losing to Sri Lanka C at home. He was good at beating minnow level teams.

Overall, Mickey did not take the team forward and neither did he improve players. People talk about Babar, but in fact, Mickey was lucky that his tenure coincided with Babar’s rise, who was always destined to become one of Pakistan’s greatest batsmen.

Pretty much every other plaque regressed under Mickey and he couldn’t do anything about Sarfraz hiding behind tail-enders and using captaincy as a shield.

He had a soft spot for him because he fluked the CT with Sarfraz at the helm and got that fake #1 ranking in T20Is.

Misbah has made mistakes but he got rid of Sarfraz almost immediately, and Pakistan should thank him for that. If Mickey was here, Rizwan would still be carrying drinks and towels.

Mickey’s tenure never recovered after the Asia Cup 2018 humiliation. That disaster brutally exposed his coaching, his team and the fake aura that they build around them.

They tried to sell the scam that they are an improved team thanks to the minnow-bashing in 2017-18 after the CT.

They were actually exposed in January 2018 when they got whitewashed 5-0 in New Zealand, but the country was still high on the CT success and the New Zealand whitewash was brushed under the carpet as a one-off and because we weren’t prepared etc.

However, the brutal reality check that we got in Asia Cup 2018 when a Kohli-less India thrashed us twice and even Bangladesh managed to beat us completely killed whatever fake momentum we had created under Mickey.

We need to realize that Pakistan is one of the worst teams in world cricket today. We are absolutely rubbish no matter the coach.

In terms of talent, skill and intelligence, Pakistan cricket is completely bankrupt. The real issue is that the level of delusion among fans is sky high, and they cannot accept the reality of where Pakistan cricket stands today and where it is heading.

Now everyone has put their eggs in the reformed FC structure and the high performance drama at NCA, as if these changes will yield any results down the line. Absolutely nothing will happen.

Pakistan cricket has seen its heydays (late 70s to mid 2000s), and that was the best period of Pakistan cricket and the best collection of Pakistani cricketers. The game has moved ahead of us now and we cannot catch up. We are a Sri Lanka, West Indies and Bangladesh tier team now and we need to make peace with it.

Instead of fantasizing about XYZ coaches and they will transform a bunch of average, talentless cricketers into world beaters, it is time for our fans to manage their expectations and lower them to meet the capacity and capability of Pakistan cricket.

For a tier 2 team, our performances are not bad at all.
 
This is why Pakistan never learns.

Removing mickey was right decision.

But removing him with same type of personality who throws others under the bus when something goes wrong was the wrong decision.

Just because current coach is bad, that doesn't automatically makes the previous coach better.

Throws others under the bus? Come on now. He just came out and said "We deserve the criticism we are getting". You can have your opinion but throwing others under the bus this is not. Unless you are blaming Misbah for driving the SL cricket bus maybe thats the only critique he hasnt gotten yet.

While here I should answer the question and agree with you that removing Mickey was exactly the right decision. He was an absolutely terrible test match coach but a capable LO coach. The focus switch from T20 to test cricket is a welcome one for some of us (not for the tamasha leagues fans of course). Just need to be patient and give these guys a little more time to get things right.
 
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Well at aleast youve switched from "minnow" to "tier2". Slept on the right side of the bed today maybe...

I have called Pakistan hovering above minnow level and that is where we stand today. However, Pakistan will reach minnow level in the future and the signs are already there.

The Pakistan vs Zimbabwe rivalry should to be box office stuff in a few years. Teams like Bangladesh and Sri Lanka will surpass us across formats and pretty soon Afghanistan will be challenging us in Test cricket as well.

People think that this is the lowest Pakistan cricket can go. I disagree - I believe the worst is yet to come.
 
No but appointing misbah was the bigger mistake. They need to hire a world class foreign coach for both the national team and the youth team
 
I have called Pakistan hovering above minnow level and that is where we stand today. However, Pakistan will reach minnow level in the future and the signs are already there.

The Pakistan vs Zimbabwe rivalry should to be box office stuff in a few years. Teams like Bangladesh and Sri Lanka will surpass us across formats and pretty soon Afghanistan will be challenging us in Test cricket as well.

People think that this is the lowest Pakistan cricket can go. I disagree - I believe the worst is yet to come.

Obviously you are entitled to your opinion but do you also talk about solution?
 
I have called Pakistan hovering above minnow level and that is where we stand today. However, Pakistan will reach minnow level in the future and the signs are already there.

The Pakistan vs Zimbabwe rivalry should to be box office stuff in a few years. Teams like Bangladesh and Sri Lanka will surpass us across formats and pretty soon Afghanistan will be challenging us in Test cricket as well.

People think that this is the lowest Pakistan cricket can go. I disagree - I believe the worst is yet to come.

so now you are calling Zimbabwe a tier 2 cricket team? You seem confused out of your mind.

Unless you dont get the difference between minnow and tier2. Come on now!
 
so now you are calling Zimbabwe a tier 2 cricket team? You seem confused out of your mind.

Unless you dont get the difference between minnow and tier2. Come on now!

“The Pakistan vs Zimbabwe rivalry should to be box office stuff in a few years. Teams like Bangladesh and Sri Lanka will surpass us across formats and pretty soon Afghanistan will be challenging us in Test cricket as well.

People think that this is the lowest Pakistan cricket can go. I disagree - I believe the worst is yet to come.”

Zimbabwe is not a tier 2 team like Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, West Indies, but I expect Pakistan to slide down further in a few years because I expect the likes of Bangladesh, West Indies and Sri Lanka to improve unlike Pakistan.

Pakistan will probably not be a tier 2 side for long. It is going to get worse.
 
Obviously you are entitled to your opinion but do you also talk about solution?

I agree with Mamoon that there is a chance we can slip even further. However there are solutions to every problem. One very interesting comment made by the Kiwi commentators during the test series was "..Pakistan has always had natural talent, it is the lack of structure around it ..". Now this statement alone sums up our issue and the solution. For far too long we have been treating all facets of cricket as "natural talent" that people either possess or they don't and this talent cannot be harnessed/enhanced in any way. The world has now moved on and in addition to the natural skills, sports science is a reality. Unfortunately, the PCB has failed to understand this and hence they dont have any one who can talk about the science of batting, balling and fielding. The result is they hire "legends" like Waqar and Misbah, who in turn never really understood any scientific aspects of playing. I am fairly sure there are numerous posters here who are more well versed with the science of fast bowling than Waqar himself!

Now coming to the structure aspect, I believe Wasim Khan's hiring -- or that was one of the positives I was hoping for -- was that he would run the organisation like any other major enterprise. When you take up a top tier senior position (or even a lot of mid tier leadership position), the first thing you need is a vision -- where do we want to be in the next 5 years? Say he could have identified the goal for the next 3 or 5 years as being in the top 3 in all formats. From this they could have started building a strategy. Instead of taking a people-first approach (i.e. saying that we have X, Y Z people, how do we fit them in the team) , the approach should be strategy-first approach i.e. We want our top 5 batters in T20 team with a combined average + SR of over 180. Identifying these mini strategies and then building an ideal team, they could have given roles to individuals and based on their success or failure, changed the individuals -- this is where you can have key performance metrics for the players so they understand what was expected from them and whether they are doing a good job or not. Once you have KPIs for the players, the same has to be the approach for all the coaching staff -- how hard is it to tell a bowling coach that his role is to set bowlers up for success and that in the next year, he should get 5 bowlers who have , for example, a less than 30 avg in Test cricket.

The above is just an example of how they could have run it as a major company. But ofcourse this requires a lot of thought process which I dont see anyone doing. The biggest concern is that we cannot expect any of the ex-cricketers to understand this process aspect and the bureaucracy is just too corrupt (or feudal in nature) to take any such steps. The best bet was someone like Wasim Khan but I am gradually losing hope given how he has handled the coaching saga.
 
There is no solution. The fans need to manage their expectations. Pakistan has no divine right to be a top cricket team.

Lol, admit it, it is your wish and desire that no solution ever be found otherwise your existence is pointless.
 
There is no solution. The fans need to manage their expectations. Pakistan has no divine right to be a top cricket team.

I think Pakistan should abolish the cricket board and invest the money in other sports.
 
I agree with Mamoon that there is a chance we can slip even further. However there are solutions to every problem. One very interesting comment made by the Kiwi commentators during the test series was "..Pakistan has always had natural talent, it is the lack of structure around it ..". Now this statement alone sums up our issue and the solution. For far too long we have been treating all facets of cricket as "natural talent" that people either possess or they don't and this talent cannot be harnessed/enhanced in any way. The world has now moved on and in addition to the natural skills, sports science is a reality. Unfortunately, the PCB has failed to understand this and hence they dont have any one who can talk about the science of batting, balling and fielding. The result is they hire "legends" like Waqar and Misbah, who in turn never really understood any scientific aspects of playing. I am fairly sure there are numerous posters here who are more well versed with the science of fast bowling than Waqar himself!

Now coming to the structure aspect, I believe Wasim Khan's hiring -- or that was one of the positives I was hoping for -- was that he would run the organisation like any other major enterprise. When you take up a top tier senior position (or even a lot of mid tier leadership position), the first thing you need is a vision -- where do we want to be in the next 5 years? Say he could have identified the goal for the next 3 or 5 years as being in the top 3 in all formats. From this they could have started building a strategy. Instead of taking a people-first approach (i.e. saying that we have X, Y Z people, how do we fit them in the team) , the approach should be strategy-first approach i.e. We want our top 5 batters in T20 team with a combined average + SR of over 180. Identifying these mini strategies and then building an ideal team, they could have given roles to individuals and based on their success or failure, changed the individuals -- this is where you can have key performance metrics for the players so they understand what was expected from them and whether they are doing a good job or not. Once you have KPIs for the players, the same has to be the approach for all the coaching staff -- how hard is it to tell a bowling coach that his role is to set bowlers up for success and that in the next year, he should get 5 bowlers who have , for example, a less than 30 avg in Test cricket.

The above is just an example of how they could have run it as a major company. But ofcourse this requires a lot of thought process which I dont see anyone doing. The biggest concern is that we cannot expect any of the ex-cricketers to understand this process aspect and the bureaucracy is just too corrupt (or feudal in nature) to take any such steps. The best bet was someone like Wasim Khan but I am gradually losing hope given how he has handled the coaching saga.

The solutions are obvious, however they are not easy or quick fixes, if we act now and get everything right, it could still take us 10-15 years before we see the results. India had severe problems in the 90's but that was the time period they took steps to invest in education, human capital, their economy and they invested in their academies, domestic cricket and slowly they started to reap rewards from 2000 onwards and with the advent of the IPL their standards in all departments of the game fast tracked and went through the roof.

Pakistan has no such luxury therefore we will have to do whatever we can at our own pace, affordability. Wasim Khan talked about developing Pakistani coaching certificates with various levels which will incorporate the best of the English, Australian, Indian and ICC certificates but will also incorporate things unique to Pakistani's as well.
 
There is no solution. The fans need to manage their expectations. Pakistan has no divine right to be a top cricket team.

No solution is not equivalent to continuing Misbah as a coach
 
This is why Pakistan never learns.

Removing mickey was right decision.

But removing him with same type of personality who throws others under the bus when something goes wrong was the wrong decision.

Just because current coach is bad, that doesn't automatically makes the previous coach better.

This is a very incorrect statement. Mickey never threw team under the bus. He used to come out himself to take all the blame. He was probably the best coach after Woolmer for Pakistan. I was in favour of removing him because he started losing focus by the end of his tenure. However, i didnt want someone like Misbah replacing him. Honestly, with Misbah fans like me didnt even need hindsight. You can go and trace back my posts to the rumor days, and we all were literally crying over it, that bad the decision to hire Misbah was.
 
Lol, admit it, it is your wish and desire that no solution ever be found otherwise your existence is pointless.

If that is what you think, I can then guarantee you that no solution will be found in my lifetime, and I hope to live for another 30-40 years.
 
Mickey Arthur is a charlatan, the accusations levelled against Waqar Younis arguably apply to him also. He has failed in each job since he left the South African post. All the histrionics and vapid gesturing in the dressing room don't necessarily make him a good coach.
 
Absolutely. Said it then and going to reiterate it now.

And the reason he was dismissed (Pakistan's WC performance) was not even a credible one to begin with since it was basically Pakistan's best WC performance (in my opinion) since 1999.
 
I have serious doubts as to what difference any of these coaches make. I know from FC players that coaches don't coach what your lay person expects. They are not going to teach you how to bat or bowl, they can make a difference to the fielding but again its upto the individuals to take it on. That can make the most incredible strategy but if you don't have the bowlers or batsman to carry it out, it makes no difference. I have long concluded that its the ability to spot talent that has a much a greater impact on the teams results. For example anyone with any knowledge of spin bowling could have seen ZGs poor bowling.
 
Mickey Arthur is a charlatan, the accusations levelled against Waqar Younis arguably apply to him also. He has failed in each job since he left the South African post. All the histrionics and vapid gesturing in the dressing room don't necessarily make him a good coach.

That can apply to nearly every coach you care to name. Coaching is not what your average fans thinks it is.
 
There is no solution. The fans need to manage their expectations. Pakistan has no divine right to be a top cricket team.

The fans need to manage their expectations could actually be a FIRST step, and good one too, but what's next?
 
The fans need to manage their expectations could actually be a FIRST step, and good one too, but what's next?

Then nothing. There won’t be any criticism or calls for sacking the coach and the selector because Pakistan lost a series that they were not supposed to win in the first place.

Pakistan cricket is a chaotic mess and lacks stability because the fans and the media keep demanding a level of cricket that is beyond the capacity of Pakistan cricket.
 
In Mamoon world, all other teams have the right to be an elite team but not Pakistan lol
 
Mickey Arthur is a charlatan, the accusations levelled against Waqar Younis arguably apply to him also. He has failed in each job since he left the South African post. All the histrionics and vapid gesturing in the dressing room don't necessarily make him a good coach.

Mickey had his faults but he is no charlatan. Most Saffers rate him very highly. their cricket was in the doldrums around 2005 and Mickey turned SA around. His stint with Pakistan was successful as well. Pakistan's batting in SENA countries was very impressive for the most part.
 
Well at aleast youve switched from "minnow" to "tier2". Slept on the right side of the bed today maybe...

I think it's a compliment to call Pakistan a Tier 2 side.

In fact in Tests they are probably Tier 3.
 
He wasn't liked by the media and he wasn't liked by some fans.

But he seemed to get the best out of quite a few of the Pakistani players and instil some discipline in the side. His relationship with most of the players was pretty good too.

The performances were a mixed bag and not earth shattering, but there were some good times.

Do you think PCB made a blunder by removing Mickey from the job?

Mickey was probably not a very good tactician in terms of fixing players' techniques, but he knew how to give confidence to the team and bring the best out of players by giving them confidence. He should have been part of our coaching staff, and it was a pathetic decision removing him with Misbah who neither fixes players' techniques nor brings the best out of his players.
 
The fans need to manage their expectations could actually be a FIRST step, and good one too, but what's next?

His buddy also said that we are on the verge of collapse...I’ve been hearing about this ‘verge of collapse’ theory since 2004
 
Removing or appointing coaches in Pakistan doesn't matter.

Pakistan cricket can only become better once the economy improves and displays 7-8% growth for the next 10 years.

Pakistan used to be good in the 90s because during that time fitness, data, video analysis didn't decide games. Just pure skill and talent was enough. And Pakistan had an abundance of it back then. Nowadays, talent doesn't win you anything. And the things that are required, Pakistan doesn't have any.

That is why economic growth is so important because that's how money will get pumped into sports. And once money gets pumped, then you will see an MRF academy type being established in Pakistan with proper coaches knowing the modern way of playing the game.

Pakistan lost its way in hockey not because cricket overshadowed hockey but because Pakistan never had the money to keep pace with the changing demands of hockey. Same is happening with cricket.

Changing coaches is just a way to tell yourself that things will get better. No it won't. There are underlying issues in Pakistan beyond cricket that needs to be resolved first before we see some results in cricket.
 
Also people who are criticizing Misbah just on the basis that he has no coaching experience, just look at Ravi Shastri. He a bonafide cheerleader with zero coaching credentials, yet India is a top class team under him.

The point remains that coach is probably one of the least important person in a team being good or not. Cricket is a sport where the skills and ability of the the team plus the ingenuity of the captain matters the most. Does anybody really believe that John Buchanan had any role in making Australia the GOAT team it was?
 
Also people who are criticizing Misbah just on the basis that he has no coaching experience, just look at Ravi Shastri. He a bonafide cheerleader with zero coaching credentials, yet India is a top class team under him.

The point remains that coach is probably one of the least important person in a team being good or not. Cricket is a sport where the skills and ability of the the team plus the ingenuity of the captain matters the most. Does anybody really believe that John Buchanan had any role in making Australia the GOAT team it was?

I think the coach and captain atleast influence the direction of the team and the brand of cricket the team should be looking to play. Under Mickey Arthur you could tell that he wanted the batsmen to express themselves and be batting at a higher strike rate
 
Removing or appointing coaches in Pakistan doesn't matter.

Pakistan cricket can only become better once the economy improves and displays 7-8% growth for the next 10 years.

Pakistan used to be good in the 90s because during that time fitness, data, video analysis didn't decide games. Just pure skill and talent was enough. And Pakistan had an abundance of it back then. Nowadays, talent doesn't win you anything. And the things that are required, Pakistan doesn't have any.

That is why economic growth is so important because that's how money will get pumped into sports. And once money gets pumped, then you will see an MRF academy type being established in Pakistan with proper coaches knowing the modern way of playing the game.

Pakistan lost its way in hockey not because cricket overshadowed hockey but because Pakistan never had the money to keep pace with the changing demands of hockey. Same is happening with cricket.

Changing coaches is just a way to tell yourself that things will get better. No it won't. There are underlying issues in Pakistan beyond cricket that needs to be resolved first before we see some results in cricket.

If Wasim, Waqar were in their primes today and playing, would the modern batsmen like Kohli, Williamson, Steve Smith have had an easier time tackling them?
 
If Wasim, Waqar were in their primes today and playing, would the modern batsmen like Kohli, Williamson, Steve Smith have had an easier time tackling them?

Wasim was once in a generational bowler and yeah he would've troubled the Big 4. So he's an exception.

However, let's not group Waqar here. People may hate me for it, but I think Waqar would've been roasted left right and center in today's cricket. The guy just had two things. Pace and reverse swing. Modern batsmen thrive on pace these days and reverse swing has completely vanished from the game. Apart from those two things, Waqar didn't have anything else in his arsenal. So he would've been thrashed today.
 
The most worrying thing about our decline is that it mirrors the decline in our bowling. Our bowling is awful, lacking the skill to get people out and in our desperation we try younger and younger bowlers because the guys before them was even worse. No coach is going to make any difference, lets hope the more competitive QA trophy produces more skilled bowlers and better batsmen
 
Also people who are criticizing Misbah just on the basis that he has no coaching experience, just look at Ravi Shastri. He a bonafide cheerleader with zero coaching credentials, yet India is a top class team under him.

The point remains that coach is probably one of the least important person in a team being good or not. Cricket is a sport where the skills and ability of the the team plus the ingenuity of the captain matters the most. Does anybody really believe that John Buchanan had any role in making Australia the GOAT team it was?

The coaches at the higher level are not coaches as we understand the term coaching. You can't teach people how to bowl or bat at the international level. They are mostly motivators who are cricket people
 
he did not know his best elevn going into the WC, quite a bit of revisionism there.
 
I don't know how anyone can view the results Arthur has achieved with the teams he has coached since leaving South Africa and state with a straight face that he's an elite coach.

Yes, the PCB made another odious error with the appointment of Misbah, but the revisionism around Arthur from some on this forum is positively embarrassing.
 
I don't know how anyone can view the results Arthur has achieved with the teams he has coached since leaving South Africa and state with a straight face that he's an elite coach.

Yes, the PCB made another odious error with the appointment of Misbah, but the revisionism around Arthur from some on this forum is positively embarrassing.

Mickey Arthur utterly failed with Karachi Kings, the one season he was not involved with them, they ended up lifting the PSL trophy with the same set of players they had in all the previous seasons.
 
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