Was the Muslim rule over the Indian subcontinent, the best thing ever to occur to this region?

[cricketjoshila]

Okay no one stopping you from believing your own lies. Fact is they killed Hindus too, in fact everyone at that time, East India Company, Dutch India Company, the French, Mughals, Afghans, Marathas, Sikhs, Rajas etc were killing Hindus. Yet you guys single out Mughals

All invaders are despised be it Afghans or Mughals or Persians or Turks or Europeans. But no one whines like the supporter of Mughals.

 

[daytrader]

Injustice and horrible things have been done by people in history. Except that most people today condemn those people. Do you see Germans glorifying the Nazis despite that they were their own people? Do you see Russians glorifying Joseph Stalin who was one of their own?

However, we Indians are expected to glorify and adore those Muslim tyrants despite the fact that they weren't even our own people. They were invaders who remain a disgrace to humanity and who caused nothing by damage of unmatched proportions to our country and people. And the funniest bit is that it's outsiders from Pakistan and Bangladesh who want us to glorify them in our country.

So why are some posters here glorifying the Marathas and not condemning them as well. Selective choices of modern India. Not too long ago you guys were proud of your Mughal heritage

 

[daytrader]

All invaders are despised be it Afghans or Mughals or Persians or Turks or Europeans. But no one whines like the supporter of Mughals.

Just look at the responses in this thread, the Pakistani posters aren't even that active and don't even care much for the subject. The whining is coming from those that have recently disowning their Mughal heritage

 

[Hitman]

So why are some posters here glorifying the Marathas and not condemning them as well. Selective choices of modern India. Not too long ago you guys were proud of your Mughal heritage

No, we weren't. If you want to believe that Bollywood represents what common Indians believe, good on you.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Just look at the responses in this thread, the Pakistani posters aren't even that active and don't even care much for the subject. The whining is coming from those that have recently disowning their Mughal heritage

Recently?Like who?

 

[JaDed]

During those days, conquests were common. Many conquests happened throughout the world (including Europe). If you compare world orders from middle ages to current period, that's illogical.

Please learn how Israel started (starting from Balfour declaration). They pretty much took over lands over native Palestinians; not just Muslims but also non-Muslim Palestinians. Even to this day, they are forcefully taking over lands in West Bank (illegal settlements).

Naw if you can support Monarchs you can support Zionists. It’s the same give into their awesome administration and innovation. Let them rule Arabs.

 

[sweep_shot]

Naw if you can support Monarchs you can support Zionists. It’s the same give into their awesome administration and innovation. Let them rule Arabs.

Naw?

I don't think so.

You can't equate something from Middle Age to modern age. Maybe it is okay with you but don't expect others to agree with you.

Also, there is absolutely no equivalency between Mughals and Israel. Apple and orange. Two different things.

 

[JaDed]

Naw?

I don't think so.

You can't equate something from Middle Age to modern age. Maybe it is okay with you but don't expect others to agree with you.

We can actually, Israel will give everything modern just Palestines have to give into their occupation. That’s all, you have already said Mughal occupation was the best thing, in 200 years Zionist rule .

 

[Champ_Pal]

So why are some posters here glorifying the Marathas and not condemning them as well. Selective choices of modern India. Not too long ago you guys were proud of your Mughal heritage

Marathas are natives, spoke a native language and followed a native religion and culture.

Mughals were foreigners, spoke Farsi/Turkic, followed a foreign religion and culture. If you want to be fully accepted into the native society, follow the native culture and speak and dress like them.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Marathas are natives, spoke a native language and followed a native religion and culture.

Mughals were foreigners, spoke Farsi/Turkic, followed a foreign religion and culture. If you want to be fully accepted into the native society, follow the native culture and speak and dress like them.

Is that how Marathas dress these days, following their ancient local culture of the native society?

 

[Champ_Pal]

Is that how Marathas dress these days, following their ancient local culture of the native society?

These days everyone in India follows secular western style clothing.

In 250 years of Mughal rule, they could not adopt to local customs. That shows what kind of people they are.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

These days everyone in India follows secular western style clothing.

In 250 years of Mughal rule, they could not adopt to local customs. That shows what kind of people they are.

So Marathas themselves didn't keep their own culture, and instead adopted western clothing made popular by the British Raj colonists, and you want to criticise Mughals as being some type of people for not adopting the same Maratha culture which Marathas themselves abandoned?

 

[adi_62941]

The Britishers have done 200% more work than the Mughals and Muslim emperors who ruled ancient India. The British developed infrastructure, an education system, a law and order system, and other civil systems for all citizens, which are still in action and working fine. Otherwise, we would be having a system similar to that of Mohenjo-daro

 

[daytrader]

Marathas are natives, spoke a native language and followed a native religion and culture.

Mughals were foreigners, spoke Farsi/Turkic, followed a foreign religion and culture. If you want to be fully accepted into the native society, follow the native culture and speak and dress like them.

So who left a greater legacy for India. No one in the World outside India knows about Marathas

 

[Champ_Pal]

So Marathas themselves didn't keep their own culture, and instead adopted western clothing made popular by the British Raj colonists, and you want to criticise Mughals as being some type of people for not adopting the same Maratha culture which Marathas themselves abandoned?

what has modern maharashtrian people got to do with Mughals failing to adopt Indian culture and language?

You are not making any sense.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Is that how Marathas dress these days, following their ancient local culture of the native society?

I see many marathis wearing the traditional sarees and dhoti. Why?

 

[big_gamer007]

Hindus are pelting foreign Muslim students with stones in India yet it's Pakistanis that have the religion hold over their minds. Get a grip of things and look at the reality

India’s problems doesn’t change what I stated.
What’s the point of coping by comparing what’s going on in another country? Until you guys self introspect you will continue to live the way you do and country will never progress the way it was supposed to.

 

[globetrotter]

So who left a greater legacy for India. No one in the World outside India knows about Marathas

Really? Marathas are saviours of india and its culture, therefore today we found statues of Chhatrapati Shivaji, a great warrior around the world.. only our neighbors teaching wrong history that’s why they lag in the world

 

[Itachi]

So who left a greater legacy for India. No one in the World outside India knows about Marathas

Why you always need validation from others though?

Indians feel closer to marathas than mughals. That's a legacy in itself.

 

[Hitman]

So who left a greater legacy for India. No one in the World outside India knows about Marathas

I'm slightly going to digress here. Who's known more around the globe between Gandhi and Jinnah? That means you should start glorifying Gandhi in Pakistan instead of Jinnah? You consider Jinnah one of you but not Gandhi. We consider the Marathas among us, not those looting invaders.

 

[daytrader]

I'm slightly going to digress here. Who's known more around the globe between Gandhi and Jinnah? That means you should start glorifying Gandhi in Pakistan instead of Jinnah? You consider Jinnah one of you but not Gandhi. We consider the Marathas among us, not those looting invaders.

Gandhi opposed Pakistan whereas Jinnah helped in creating it. Poor analogy.

 

[daytrader]

India’s problems doesn’t change what I stated.
What’s the point of coping by comparing what’s going on in another country? Until you guys self introspect you will continue to live the way you do and country will never progress the way it was supposed to.

If you call what India is going through progression than yes please God save us from progression like this

 

[Hitman]

Gandhi opposed Pakistan whereas Jinnah helped in creating it. Poor analogy.

Gandhi opposed Pakistan? And that's why Nathuram Godse assassinated him?

 

[daytrader]

Gandhi opposed Pakistan? And that's why Nathuram Godse assassinated him?

I dunno why a peace loving person like him was assainated but yes he did oppose the partition of ma bharat

 

[Hitman]

I dunno why a peace loving person like him was assainated but yes he did oppose the partition of ma bharat

Because he had a soft corner for Pakistan.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

what has modern maharashtrian people got to do with Mughals failing to adopt Indian culture and language?

You are not making any sense.

Of course I am making sense, just because you don't want to hear it doesn't mean it is difficult to understand. Let me phrase it even more simply then. Why are you criticising Mughals for failing to adopt Maratha culture when Marathas themselves in your own words have adopted western clothing. Mughals obviously felt that Maratha culture was not worth adopting in some aspects as it was inferior, just as many modern Marathas have cast off many of their traditional dress in favour of modern western styles.

 

[big_gamer007]

If you call what India is going through progression than yes please God save us from progression like this

The topic is about Mughal era, I’ll even add the British rule and say, Compared to 1500s/1600s/1700s/1800s/1900s etc it is progression.

 

[Rajdeep]

Gandhi opposed Pakistan whereas Jinnah helped in creating it. Poor analogy.

I am with Jinnah in this. Not sure why Gandhi opposed but creation of Pakistan was the best thing to have happened for India according to me. Jinnah ji should have ensured that all Muslims move there and all Hindu's come here at the time of partition. The problems we see today would have been solved then.

I used to believe that Gandhi was of liberal & secular mindset and hence against the creation of a state based on religion. However, to my surprise, most Indian politicians think partition was wrong and should not have happened. I was recently watching an interview of Amit Shah for India Today conclave where he was saying Partition of the country was the worst thing to have happened and BJP believes in Akhand Bharat i.e entire Indian subcontinent belongs to India. Rare occasion where I disagree with BJP as I am not a believer of Akhand Bharat, I only believe in Hindu Rastra.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Of course I am making sense, just because you don't want to hear it doesn't mean it is difficult to understand. Let me phrase it even more simply then. Why are you criticising Mughals for failing to adopt Maratha culture when Marathas themselves in your own words have adopted western clothing. Mughals obviously felt that Maratha culture was not worth adopting in some aspects as it was inferior, just as many modern Marathas have cast off many of their traditional dress in favour of modern western styles.

Let's compare 16th-17th century Mughals with 21st century Marathas. What a great comparison.

Mughals central rule was in North India. The language there was Awadhi, Braj, Prakrit etc. Those languages were all pretty similar. Mughals neither tried to learn those languages nor adopted the clothing or customs of the masses. They were like a stone in a plate of milk. Obviously felt the locals were too inferior adopt their ways.

 

[Champ_Pal]

I am with Jinnah in this. Not sure why Gandhi opposed but creation of Pakistan was the best thing to have happened for India according to me. Jinnah ji should have ensured that all Muslims move there and all Hindu's come here at the time of partition. The problems we see today would have been solved then.

I used to believe that Gandhi was of liberal & secular mindset and hence against the creation of a state based on religion. However, to my surprise, most Indian politicians think partition was wrong and should not have happened. I was recently watching an interview of Amit Shah for India Today conclave where he was saying Partition of the country was the worst thing to have happened and BJP believes in Akhand Bharat i.e entire Indian subcontinent belongs to India. Rare occasion where I disagree with BJP as I am not a believer of Akhand Bharat, I only believe in Hindu Rastra.

Though India was partitioned, it worked out for India in long term.

Jinnah was selfish. He never wanted mainland Indian Muslims. I have not read anywhere where Jinnah asks Muslims of the entire Indian subcontinent to migrate to Pakistan. He Just wanted to the PM of the western India's new Muslim country.

Gandhi was a tool and a fool. His appeasing politics along with his Chela Nehru has harmed India greatly. Once it was agreed that India would be partitioned, they should have taken an aggressive stance in securing both land and population of Indian part. Instead, they arm wrestled with Pakistan with a limp wrist. They were woke before wokeism ever was a thing.

 

[Theanonymousone]

Of course I am making sense, just because you don't want to hear it doesn't mean it is difficult to understand. Let me phrase it even more simply then. Why are you criticising Mughals for failing to adopt Maratha culture when Marathas themselves in your own words have adopted western clothing. Mughals obviously felt that Maratha culture was not worth adopting in some aspects as it was inferior, just as many modern Marathas have cast off many of their traditional dress in favour of modern western styles.

I am not sure who told you that marathas has cast off their culture.

I am from South India and people go to great lengths to preserve their culture. Cultural preferences including language, dressing style, food are part and parcel of every region particularly in Southern India. We adopt western culture to suit the circumstances but even the corporate culture in South India recognizes the indigenous culture to the specific regions (including festive holidays, dress code on few days etc)

I mean do you wear the traditional muslim dressing style to your office?

So, the whole point you are making on the Mughal culture being superior to Marathas culture is farcical

If at all, Mughals felt themselves as religious supremacists and hence failed to integrate into Indian culture. So, the animosity toward them is a given thing from Indians

One aspect about Indian culture and religion is that we dont claim that our culture is superior and our Gods are the only Almighty. Hence, its easier for us to accept other faiths. Its easier to question your stance on the Mughal culture and even religion and understand who are more accommodating toward the other.

 

[RexRex]

Gandhi was a tool and a fool. His appeasing politics along with his Chela Nehru has harmed India greatly. Once it was agreed that India would be partitioned, they should have taken an aggressive stance in securing both land and population of Indian part. Instead, they arm wrestled with Pakistan with a limp wrist. They were woke before wokeism ever was a thing.

This is all true, but it is easy to say these things with the benefit of 70 yrs worth of history & hindsight. We have the internet and thousands of books and research articles to help make our opinions, no point criticising people in 1940s who had none of these.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Hindus are pelting foreign Muslim students with stones in India yet it's Pakistanis that have the religion hold over their minds. Get a grip of things and look at the reality

Yes, no Sri Lankan was burned for blasphemy.

 

[Vikram1989]

Jinnah was selfish. He never wanted mainland Indian Muslims. I have not read anywhere where Jinnah asks Muslims of the entire Indian subcontinent to migrate to Pakistan.

I am not sure had anyone asked entire muslims to migrate to pak especially from Jinnah side as they are more concerned about safety of muslims.All the time discussion was who will rule which part.Ambedkar advised Nehru to let all Muslims migrate to pak and it will be the best solution instead of having bad blood for ever.But Nehru thought of playing high moral ground

 

[CricketCartoons]

Okay no one stopping you from believing your own lies. Fact is they killed Hindus too, in fact everyone at that time, East India Company, Dutch India Company, the French, Mughals, Afghans, Marathas, Sikhs, Rajas etc were killing Hindus. Yet you guys single out Mughals

Were those killings inspired by religion? Was it a war against the infidels?

 

[Champ_Pal]

This is all true, but it is easy to say these things with the benefit of 70 yrs worth of history & hindsight. We have the internet and thousands of books and research articles to help make our opinions, no point criticising people in 1940s who had none of these.

Any shrewd leader would try their best to secure both people and land as much as they can. We have examples of many leaders from that era who played hard ball when it comes to land and people. Gandhi's greatest plan for any problem is fasting. As though the opponents care about his meal plans.

 

[CricketCartoons]

This is all true, but it is easy to say these things with the benefit of 70 yrs worth of history & hindsight. We have the internet and thousands of books and research articles to help make our opinions, no point criticising people in 1940s who had none of these.

Gandhis shenanigans were known to his contemporaries. Ambedkar and Tagore criticized him. Even his closest friend, one half of Ali brothers, did not agree with him.

This halo around gandhi was built later after his assassination. Wish I was Godse. Would have just let him off with a slap.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Let's compare 16th-17th century Mughals with 21st century Marathas. What a great comparison.

Mughals central rule was in North India. The language there was Awadhi, Braj, Prakrit etc. Those languages were all pretty similar. Mughals neither tried to learn those languages nor adopted the clothing or customs of the masses. They were like a stone in a plate of milk. Obviously felt the locals were too inferior adopt their ways.

What if Europeans had decided to adopt the culture and clothing of the Navajo or Sioux tribes in when they discovered the Americas? Would you castigate the great white Imperialists for not adopting local culture as well? I hope you aren't going to type your reply on a Microsoft or Apple device because that would might have been difficult. Sending smoke signals would probably be your best bet of communication if all empire builders had followed your prescribed methods.

 

[Champ_Pal]

What if Europeans had decided to adopt the culture and clothing of the Navajo or Sioux tribes in when they discovered the Americas? Would you castigate the great white Imperialists for not adopting local culture as well? I hope you aren't going to type your reply on a Microsoft or Apple device because that would might have been difficult. Sending smoke signals would probably be your best bet of communication if all empire builders had followed your prescribed methods.

If they wanted to settle in Americas permanently, they should have adopted the native ways, language and culture. They did not do that and they are rightfully called invaders.
The same goes for Mughals. They are a small minority of people who were ruling the vast majority of natives. Yet, they had no interest in mingling with locals and adopting their ways. They lived in a self created bubble.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

If they wanted to settle in Americas permanently, they should have adopted the native ways, language and culture. They did not do that and they are rightfully called invaders.
The same goes for Mughals. They are a small minority of people who were ruling the vast majority of natives. Yet, they had no interest in mingling with locals and adopting their ways. They lived in a self created bubble.

I can see why the hindutva movement is often compared to the Taliban. Many a mullah has often typed outrage against US imperialism on an Apple or Microsoft keyboard.

 

[Statpadder Inc]

So who left a greater legacy for India. No one in the World outside India knows about Marathas

Don't think Mughals are really famous outside South Asia

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Don't think Mughals are really famous outside South Asia

They are very famous in Britain, but that might be because they clashed directly with the British over rule of India.l

 

[Statpadder Inc]

They are very famous in Britain, but that might be because they clashed directly with the British over rule of India.l

Doubt it, they maybe famous among British muslims but don't think that the average Joe blow has any idea of them.

 

[RexRex]

They are very famous in Britain, but that might be because they clashed directly with the British over rule of India.l

It's that one monument that is world famous tbh, the more knowledgeable brits know about the cusines and architecture but they aren't too many of them.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Doubt it, they maybe famous among British muslims but don't think that the average Joe blow has any idea of them.

The average Joe isn't aware of much outside of Britain and America, but I was comparing knowledge of Mughals in Britain compared to places like say Germany or America. You still get British made documentaries about the Mughals and racy novels based around that period.

 

[daytrader]

One thing all my Hindu brethren here are ignoring is the impact of Mughals on the local culture. You can deny the Mughals but you can't deny their effect on India. Just look at the foods you eat as an example.

Indian cuisine was upgraded from Khichri to Biryani. Most 'Indian' dishes that are famous and loved everywhere are Mughlai cuisine. Be it Biryani, qormas, kebabs or tandoori.

So honest question for you all - Since you hate the mughals so much, how many of you have given up Biryani?


@cricketjoshila @Hitman @Statpadder Inc @Rajdeep @rpant_gabba @globetrotter

 

[CricketCartoons]

One thing all my Hindu brethren here are ignoring is the impact of Mughals on the local culture. You can deny the Mughals but you can't deny their effect on India. Just look at the foods you eat as an example.

Indian cuisine was upgraded from Khichri to Biryani. Most 'Indian' dishes that are famous and loved everywhere are Mughlai cuisine. Be it Biryani, qormas, kebabs or tandoori.

So honest question for you all - Since you hate the mughals so much, how many of you have given up Biryani?


@cricketjoshila @Hitman @Statpadder Inc @Rajdeep @rpant_gabba @globetrotter

Let us get it clear first. Mughals were waging war against Infidels and killing them to bring the land under the banner of Islam. This part is settled, right?

And now the discussion is but what about biryani?

 

[Statpadder Inc]

One thing all my Hindu brethren here are ignoring is the impact of Mughals on the local culture. You can deny the Mughals but you can't deny their effect on India. Just look at the foods you eat as an example.

Indian cuisine was upgraded from Khichri to Biryani. Most 'Indian' dishes that are famous and loved everywhere are Mughlai cuisine. Be it Biryani, qormas, kebabs or tandoori.

So honest question for you all - Since you hate the mughals so much, how many of you have given up Biryani?


@cricketjoshila @Hitman @Statpadder Inc @Rajdeep @rpant_gabba @globetrotter

I have no idea why you are so obsessed with popularity, I couldn't care less whether a dish is popular in Bangladesh Or Egypt.

Kichdi is probably healthier than biryani tbh, didn't pakistani fans on this forum go ballistic on their team for having biryanis, maybe they would have performed better eating kichdi.

 

[daytrader]

Let us get it clear first. Mughals were waging war against Infidels and killing them to bring the land under the banner of Islam. This part is settled, right?

And now the discussion is but what about biryani?

The discussion is about impact of Muslim rule on Indian society. As evident through 'Indian' cuisine there are long lasting positives. Biryani has become a part of Indian heritage

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Considering that the Muslim world have been some of the biggest puppets of the West , form the biggest proportion of refugees and being completely powerless and impotent in modern geopolitics despite have such a huge geographical spread , low rates of educational attainment and output , it's questionable what it has brought anywhere in the world let alone the subcontinent.

 

[CricketCartoons]

The discussion is about impact of Muslim rule on Indian society. As evident through 'Indian' cuisine there are long lasting positives. Biryani has become a part of Indian heritage

Sure, we will discuss on that. But have we settled the that they were waging war on Infidels and it was for expansion of their religion?

We can surely discuss impact on cuisine and everything else, but have you agreed on the above or that is still up for debate?

 

[CricketCartoons]

Considering that the Muslim world have been some of the biggest puppets of the West , form the biggest proportion of refugees and being completely powerless and impotent in modern geopolitics despite have such a huge geographical spread , low rates of educational attainment and output , it's questionable what it has brought anywhere in the world let alone the subcontinent.

I would keep Iran out of it. They have shown the most spine among the muslim world. In fact Islam would have been poorer without persia/iran.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

I would keep Iran out of it. They have shown the most spine among the muslim world. In fact Islam would have been poorer without persia/iran.

Agreed. Iran is the only major Islamic nation that is worthy of admiration.

 

[rickroll]

What if Europeans had decided to adopt the culture and clothing of the Navajo or Sioux tribes in when they discovered the Americas? Would you castigate the great white Imperialists for not adopting local culture as well? I hope you aren't going to type your reply on a Microsoft or Apple device because that would might have been difficult. Sending smoke signals would probably be your best bet of communication if all empire builders had followed your prescribed methods.

While I see the essence of this point, the perspective of the Native Americans that is hinted in your message is factually incorrect. Pretty much every Native American tribe does see white people as imperialist conquerors. They have adjusted to living within the white man's framework over the generations because they had no other choice. But deep down the resentment does remain.

I have worked with a couple of investment entities and thanks to the industry sector we focused on, I had the chance to interact with Cherokee, Paiute, Seminole, Lakota, Navajo tribes. The resentment inside towards whites is there across Native Americans (except the white washed ones who cheer for the cowboys and not the "Indians" when watching old Western movies).

 

[Energy]

Considering that the Muslim world have been some of the biggest puppets of the West , form the biggest proportion of refugees and being completely powerless and impotent in modern geopolitics despite have such a huge geographical spread , low rates of educational attainment and output , it's questionable what it has brought anywhere in the world let alone the subcontinent.

And yet Indians make up the highest expat majority in the Middle East. There's got to be a Muslim magnet that's driving them. A lot of Indians blend very well there. And enjoy the biryani, zafran, and mughlai cuisine.

India's GDP per capita rank is 120 in the world. There are multiple Muslim countries in the top ten of that ranking who are using their little brains smartly and attracting top global businesses and interests.

 

[CricketCartoons]

And yet Indians make up the highest expat majority in the Middle East. There's got to be a Muslim magnet that's driving them. A lot of Indians blend very well there. And enjoy the biryani, zafran, and mughlai cuisine.

India's GDP per capita rank is 120 in the world. There are multiple Muslim countries in the top ten of that ranking who are using their little brains smartly and attracting top global businesses and interests.

Are you comparing expats with refugees?

agreed that india doesnt rank high in most per capita metrics, but it begs the question, why are pakistani posters complaining about India not giving faster route to citizenship to muslim immigrants, when there are many prosperous muslim nations to go to. What do you think is the reason?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Considering that the Muslim world have been some of the biggest puppets of the West , form the biggest proportion of refugees and being completely powerless and impotent in modern geopolitics despite have such a huge geographical spread , low rates of educational attainment and output , it's questionable what it has brought anywhere in the world let alone the subcontinent.

The Muslim world does have some of the biggest puppets of the west, that is ironically the complaint of Muslim populations in general, that their leaders are bought off and serving foreign interests above their own. The question then is...if the leaders are puppets of the west, does that reflect the Muslim people in general? What do you say to this question?

 

[CricketCartoons]

The Muslim world does have some of the biggest puppets of the west, that is ironically the complaint of Muslim populations in general, that their leaders are bought off and serving foreign interests above their own. The question then is...if the leaders are puppets of the west, does that reflect the Muslim people in general? What do you say to this question?

Most pakistanis are not happy with Imran being incarcerated. Yet he remains in jail, and the only opposition is seen online, not on the ground. It either means they have reluctant acceptance of the situation and/or admission of their own weakness. Reflects poorly on them either ways.

 

[PakEngFan]

The Muslim world does have some of the biggest puppets of the west, that is ironically the complaint of Muslim populations in general, that their leaders are bought off and serving foreign interests above their own. The question then is...if the leaders are puppets of the west, does that reflect the Muslim people in general? What do you say to this question?

Muslims in general are not while Hindus on general are the biggest puppets of the west.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Most pakistanis are not happy with Imran being incarcerated. Yet he remains in jail, and the only opposition is seen online, not on the ground. It either means they have reluctant acceptance of the situation and/or admission of their own weakness. Reflects poorly on them either ways.

Perhaps it does. Or since many who have been seen making waves against the establishment have either disappeared, suffered beatings and threats to their families, maybe they don't want to put a target on their foreheads by raising their heads above the parapet. In a state where the internet goes down and you get news blackouts during periods of unrest, who is to say how much opposition to the establishment is tolerated? If Pakistan's biggest hero can be humiliated and put in jail, then why would the common man feel confident to go on the streets?

 

[CricketCartoons]

Perhaps it does. Or since many who have been seen making waves against the establishment have either disappeared, suffered beatings and threats to their families, maybe they don't want to put a target on their foreheads by raising their heads above the parapet. In a state where the internet goes down and you get news blackouts during periods of unrest, who is to say how much opposition to the establishment is tolerated? If Pakistan's biggest hero can be humiliated and put in jail, then why would the common man feel confident to go on the streets?

So the common man is scared. This is what I said for weakness. Does reflect poorly on them.

 

[rpant_gabba]

One thing all my Hindu brethren here are ignoring is the impact of Mughals on the local culture. You can deny the Mughals but you can't deny their effect on India. Just look at the foods you eat as an example.

Indian cuisine was upgraded from Khichri to Biryani. Most 'Indian' dishes that are famous and loved everywhere are Mughlai cuisine. Be it Biryani, qormas, kebabs or tandoori.

So honest question for you all - Since you hate the mughals so much, how many of you have given up Biryani?


@cricketjoshila @Hitman @Statpadder Inc @Rajdeep @rpant_gabba @globetrotter

not a fan of biryani at all. Most sought after Indian food in the silicon valley is south indian food : chettinad cuisine and the the dosa's.

If all you have have food which was trasnported over by Arab and persian traders from pre-islamic days ....

bit sad really, atleast you are consistent in not having logical view points

 

[cricketjoshila]

not a fan of biryani at all. Most sought after Indian food in the silicon valley is south indian food : chettinad cuisine and the the dosa's.

If all you have have food which was trasnported over by Arab and persian traders from pre-islamic days ....

bit sad really, atleast you are consistent in not having logical view points

Where did the Arabs get Rice( A water intensive crop) and all the spices for Biryani?

 

[rpant_gabba]

Where did the Arabs get Rice( A water intensive crop) and all the spices for Biryani?

Plenty of rice cultivation in Persia.

He would argue that moghuls are not arabs and they are turkic people.

spices like cumin were transferred from Persia. One reason they are not used in many rituals in south india. like yearly rememberings of your ancestors (devasam)

 

[captain.hansolo]

i dont have the patience to go through all the messages on this thread, and thus if any of the points i posit below are redundant to points made previously, please skip over them.

1. The most reliable metrics for measurement of national success are a combination of economic and human life quality indexes such as GDP, Average Life Expectancy, Infant mortality etc. While there is no reliable historical record of these indexes in any significant antiquity, retrospective estimates have indicated that the GDP growth of india was not higher during the period of the delhi sultanate or the mughal empire, as compared to the preceding periods. At a time when the economy was primarily agrarian as it was up till about 1000 AD, the rise of mineral excavation coincided with muslim leaders and yet the GDP of india did not grow at the same pace. This is likely due to governance inefficiencies. The empires prior to the mughal empire operated on a pseudo federal setup with local governing bodies providing oversight to local matters, and thus expediting any relevant transactions. A departure from this form of governance was both a product of a desire for resource garnering by the center, and possibly a lack of maturity in governance.
2. Establishment of foreign outpots. Since the time of early mitani and sumerian civilizations, there has been a significant diaspora of people from the indian subcontinent who setup trade and diplomatic outposts. a cherished example that i often think of when attempting to potray the dynamic of this diaspora is that many hurrian kings of the mitani kingdom would take names that were markedly not hurrian, but old indic. archealogists have suggested, and with literary proof, that this in part because often warriors from the subcontinent would be invited by hurrian kings to train their armies as these warriors were legendary charioters. During the period 1200 AD and 1800 AD, such outposts are few and far inbetween, again, as i speculate, an impact of the insular and isolationist approach to governance adopted by the muslim leaders.
3. Finally, and this one is particularly disappointing, during the period of even the most prosperous and thriving muslim kingdoms, a stagnation occurred in the domains of science and mathematics. the key reason for this as identified by historian S. N. Mukerji is that during the rule of muslim leaders: "Education in the Muslim era was not a concerted and planned activity but a voluntary and spontaneous growth. There was no separate administration of education, and state aid was sporadic and unsteady. Education was supported by charitable endowments and by lavish provision for the students in a madrasa or in a monastery". compare that to the period of the Guptas and the Maghad empires prior to them that established numerous institutions of education, did not limit the education of girls to their homes, and encouraged the growth of scholastic ability by respecting the independence of the said universities.

I believe that the above in conjunction with the fragmentation of india into smaller kingdoms was a contributing factor in its eventual colonization. Could colonization have been averted, unlikely, but its detrimental impact could have been tempered. Or maybe it was inevitable.

Nonetheless, a few things to note is that while muslim leaders in india may have been ineffective, that does not reflect on muslim people in india. the contributions of people of the islamic faith have been critical to the fiber of india, and it is rather shameful what the current administration is doing to alienate a fifth of its population. a house divided cannot stand, and while i dont see better leadership on the horizon, i will take anyone other than the current slobbering fool in charge.

 

[captain.hansolo]

Muslims should be proud of babur, he was a warrior for Islam, and he furthered the progress of muslim civilization. In his own words (baburnama translation):

For the sake of Islam I became a wanderer; I battled infidels and Hindus. I determined to become a martyr. Thank God I became a holy warrior.

yeah nah... everything he did, he did for himself. his personal ambition. as did ashoka, as did chandragupta, as did akbar, as does narender modi. personal ambition and pride and self grandeur.

 

[CricketCartoons]

yeah nah... everything he did, he did for himself. his personal ambition. as did ashoka, as did chandragupta, as did akbar, as does narender modi. personal ambition and pride and self grandeur.

it may be his personal ambition to kill Infidels and accord himself the title of Ghazi, but how did he get that value system which meant that this was a good ambition to aspire to?

 

[Vikram1989]

If all you have have food which was trasnported over by Arab and persian traders from pre-islamic days ....

I hope u know harry potter .In 3rd part climax, Sirius will tell to Peter petrrigew "it's not a good thing to boast that Ur a good pet instead of a human".same goes for other than mandatory things ( people's welfare and economic development. )

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

So the common man is scared. This is what I said for weakness. Does reflect poorly on them.

There's a saying, don't take a knife to a gunfight. The common man is not in a position to take on the state military machine, especially in today's high surveillance world where people can be identified and rounded up later. What happened to the Arab Spring? All that freedom and revolt got put down pretty damn quick when the Generals were instructed to get their house in order by those concerned it could affect global interests.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Plenty of rice cultivation in Persia.

He would argue that moghuls are not arabs and they are turkic people.

spices like cumin were transferred from Persia. One reason they are not used in many rituals in south india. like yearly rememberings of your ancestors (devasam)

Persia isnt Arab. The first Persian invasion to India occurred during Nadir Shah's time.

Iran till today imports rice from India. So in medieval times and ancient times they may have been doing the
same.

Biryani comes from the Persian Biranj. And India and Persia had trade relations long before Islam came to Persia.

So Biryani may have come from Persia even befu Muslims came.

 

[Vikram1989]

.

Biryani comes from the Persian Biranj. And India and Persia had trade relations long before Islam came to Persia.

Yeah ,as per archaeologists Mesopotamia(iran) artefacts were found in harappa and mohenjadaro(3200 bc)

Indus–Mesopotamia relations - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Red-Indian]

Do we really need to get so petty? India (or the Subcontinent if we prefer it) has been invaded so many times

Even if we set aside the Aryan invasions as unproven and even if true, ultimately blending in.

Greeks
Kushans
Early Arabs under Bin Qasim (the legendary first Pakistani)
Turks
Khiljis
Mongols
Mughals
Portuguese
Brits

And I'm probably forgetting a few. All of them were a....s who looked down on the native population and exploited them refusing to blend in. Some value from each of them but overall very little from the overall bunch. Not that I'm going to praise the Native rulers either to be honest. For the average subcontinental, compared to the changes they've seen in the last 75 years, very little changed in previous 750 or maybe even 1500.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

When you are too confused to take a side.

View attachment power of indian muslim 🇮🇳🇮🇳 Muslim attitude #shorts #muslimattitudestatus #islam.mp4

 

[daytrader]

not a fan of biryani at all. Most sought after Indian food in the silicon valley is south indian food : chettinad cuisine and the the dosa's.

If all you have have food which was trasnported over by Arab and persian traders from pre-islamic days ....

bit sad really, atleast you are consistent in not having logical view points

So now you're denying that Muslim rulers had any impact on local cuisine? Very logical

 

[CricketCartoons]

So now you're denying that Muslim rulers had any impact on local cuisine? Very logical

But have we settled that they were waging a religious war on the infidels? Don't treat this important fact as an elephant in the room because it is not.

 

[daytrader]

But have we settled that they were waging a religious war on the infidels? Don't treat this important fact as an elephant in the room because it is not.

Babur was and that's on record and something that isn't in dispute. The subsequent rulers were emperors of India and treated their kingdom as any other monarchs did in those times whether it were the Marathas or Mughals. They did not loot India, instead they united it and spent money locally. You cannot deny this history as much as you'd like to try to erase it. My point was simple, be proud of your heritage

 

[CricketCartoons]

Babur was and that's on record and something that isn't in dispute. The subsequent rulers were emperors of India and treated their kingdom as any other monarchs did in those times whether it were the Marathas or Mughals. They did not loot India, instead they united it and spent money locally. You cannot deny this history as much as you'd like to try to erase it. My point was simple, be proud of your heritage

What about Aurangzeb? There is a reason muslims are proud of babur and aurangzeb and less of akbar.

Babur and Aurangzeb are your heritage, whether by blood or by association of religion, and you should be proud of them.

Just dont tell a lowly sub human hindu infidel like me that they are my heritage.

 

[daytrader]

What about Aurangzeb? There is a reason muslims are proud of babur and aurangzeb and less of akbar.

Babur and Aurangzeb are your heritage, whether by blood or by association of religion, and you should be proud of them.

Just dont tell a lowly sub human hindu infidel like me that they are my heritage.

Well the Muslim rulers gave most of the Hindu lower castes respect and equality and hence why the massive rate of conversions.

The ones treating Hindus as sub human were higher caste Hindus. Let's not forget the story of Nangeli during the British Raj that chopped off her breasts to protest the infamous Breast Tax (lower caste women were forced to pay tax if they wanted to cover their torso) in modern day Kerala.

If anything Muslims taught Hindus what respect and equality means

 

[daytrader]

Why you always need validation from others though?

Indians feel closer to marathas than mughals. That's a legacy in itself.

You say that but the cultural influence of the Mughals is evident in Indian society. It in only now that it's being opposed

 

[CricketCartoons]

Well the Muslim rulers gave most of the Hindu lower castes respect and equality and hence why the massive rate of conversions.

The ones treating Hindus as sub human were higher caste Hindus. Let's not forget the story of Nangeli during the British Raj that chopped off her breasts to protest the infamous Breast Tax (lower caste women were forced to pay tax if they wanted to cover their torso) in modern day Kerala.

If anything Muslims taught Hindus what respect and equality means

This is a myth. They tied up with upper castes. Even the sufis ignored the dalits. I am sure you cannot give any numbers (not your fault), but can you give even few examples of muslims marrying dalit origin muslims? Otherwise even provide some text of those times where they showed even some sympathy for dalits.

All hindus irrespective of their castes were infidels for them.

Dehlavi, writing in Tafhimat-e-Ilahiyya says: Oh Kings! Mala'a'la' urges you to draw your swords and not put them back in their sheaths again until Allah has separated the Muslims from the polytheists and the rebellious Kafirs and the sinners are made absolutely feeble and helpless.

These are just samples. I can provide tons of authentic text right from the primary sources. I challenge you to provide even one paragraph where any muslim king or any scholar/poet during the muslim rule talked about giving respect to dalits.