"We can't live in the past. We also have a list of wanted in India" : Imran Khan

[Tusker]

Now, that you have accepted Indian interference in Pakistan, you are shifting the discussion to the question who did it first.
This is exactly what Imran alluded to during that talk ; "blame game". This is how things go - you did this, you did that, you did more despicable , but you were more savage, you started it , no you started it. Lets talk Kashmir first, no lets talk Mumbai first, before that you need to punish Samjhota Express perpetrators, no you should have completed Mumbai trial by now, you are supporting Kashmir separatists, no you are supporting Baloch separatists and TTP. The list goes on and on, till we reach the massacres in Punjab during partition.

As I said .... India has tried the lets take the first step approach more than once and got burnt badly. Why dont you start by explaining how that came to be ?

So therefore if Imran really means what he says the onus is completely on him to take decisive and big steps before he can be taken seriously.

 

[Tusker]

India meddled in Pak affairs first, in '1971. Pakistan has meddled in Kashmir, which is legitimate from its own pov (disputed territory and in fact the '48 war was made possible because many of the soldiers in Pak were from Azaad Kashmir), it has never helped Naxalites or whatnot. As for helping the Khalistan movement it was as a response to '71 that Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto decided to go for it, and that ISI fueled the movement before Benazir Bhutto helps Rajiv Gandhi to curb it in the late 80s.

Pak thinks it is legitimate therefore war is justified and is not considered "meddling" . Well I got news for you. India thinks otherwise. Now what ?

And yeah India is a holy cow of peace, never meddle anywhere, not in the only other Hindu majority nation's constitutional matters even less, through RAW, by contributing to a bloody civil war in Sri Lanka (+100 000 deaths/nearly 1 million displaced) by helping/arming/training Tamil militant groups.

So Rajiv Gandhi was killed by LTTE for helping them ?

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

Genius they are in Pakistan also and operate quite freely under different names. Mullah Omar lived in Pakistan and ran operations from there until he was taken out by America. It is an open secret that they had protection from ISI.

Matlab kuch bhi. Don't tell me you think Taliban have the same level of control in AFG and PAK. If you do, I rest my case now because there is no point dealing with blind patriots with a lack of knowledge about the topic in discussion.

And when you talked about Geneva conventions, are you implying that PAK can interfere in India's matters as long as human rights are violated in India? I mean we all know how to toy with rules you know.

And we initiated wars "unprovoked". Wow. Just wow. You desperately need a history lesson mate.

If military strength wasn't equal then India would have long usurped Pakistan. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. If we stand here today as a sovereign Islamic state then that is because of Jinnah and later the army and its sacrifices.

India doesn't send rogue elements into Azad Kashmir (despite having the excuse for it being a disputed territory) rather it sends them to Balochistan (because it has Gwadar and is a major part of CPEC) which has nothing to do with India. I'm starting to feel sorry for your arguments.

Like others have pointed out, you have ZERO interest in peace with PAK. Finding excuses from 1947 till present just to avoid peace talks in 2018 is pathetic but I must say I expected nothing better.

Your defence ministry actually approves Bipin Rawat's statements before he makes them!!! ) that's even funnier.

Those childish jokes are actually "approved" by the geniuses at the Defence Ministry

 

[ILcricket]

India in that case is in no position to complain about Yadav being nabbed. He was an Indian RAW terrorist caught in Pak. If you now insist he was caught in Iran by the ISI then why has India not taken up the issue with the Iranians?

Why are you jumping all over the place ? You mentioned Samjhauta & when i asked if it happened in Pakistan you said we are concerned where ever Pakistani's are killed & then i asked your view on Pakistani's being droned on their own soil you hop-step & jump to Yadav . Unable to give a cohesive answer ?

 

[Tusker]

No need to get worked up

You may want to learn how to quote my posts as I can't keep copying your posts.

Taliban don't run Pakistan but have support from Pakistan so therefore BJP whom you call extremist must have committed far more bigger atrocities( because they rule India) than the Taliban and various other rogue organizations that the ISI have openly helped.

Got it ? And good you truly realize who you really are - extremist terror supporter of Taliban . Well done !

 

[Tusker]

And when you talked about Geneva conventions, are you implying that PAK can interfere in India's matters as long as human rights are violated in India? I mean we all know how to toy with rules you know.

And we initiated wars "unprovoked". Wow. Just wow. You desperately need a history lesson mate.

If military strength wasn't equal then India would have long usurped Pakistan. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. If we stand here today as a sovereign Islamic state then that is because of Jinnah and later the army and its sacrifices.

India doesn't send rogue elements into Azad Kashmir (despite having the excuse for it being a disputed territory) rather it sends them to Balochistan (because it has Gwadar and is a major part of CPEC) which has nothing to do with India. I'm starting to feel sorry for your arguments.

Like others have pointed out, you have ZERO interest in peace with PAK. Finding excuses from 1947 till present just to avoid peace talks in 2018 is pathetic but I must say I expected nothing better.

Your defence ministry actually approves Bipin Rawat's statements before he makes them!!! ) that's even funnier.

Those childish jokes are actually "approved" by the geniuses at the Defence Ministry

Indian army has never killed it's own people like what Pakistanis did in 1971.

Why dont you tell us which war was started by India beginning with 1948 ? What was the provocation to start that war?

Being secular is not a joke. We realize that for most Pakistanis it's a joke but tell me something new.

 

[cricketjoshila]

There is a huuuge difference between the running the country and having a say in important affairs. When did I ever say we haven't been ruled by the army in our history? In fact, I'm a fan of Gen. Ayub Khan's era as it was during this era that Pakistan progressed like never before and we haven't seen a similar level of progress since.

Our army can do whatever it wants with its civilians. Who is India to interfere in this personal matter??? And just stop assuming things alright? When did I say PAK didn't initiate war in 1948, 1965 and 1999? Ofcourse, how can you forget 1965 and 1999, when, despite being much superior in numbers and equipment, IND found its equal in military strength.

Kashmir is disputed territory (have a look at an atlas, will ya?) therefore any interference there is not an interference in personal matters. Balochistan, on the other hand, has nothing to do with India, so any interference there is fundamentally wrong and has no justifications.

If the army doesn't have as much prominence in India, then why does that birthday cap wearing creature Bipin Rawat go around giving out political statements on foreign affairs and direct threats to PAK?

Lets assume your army can do anything with your people. But then keep it within your borders. More than 10mn bangladeshis flooded into India due to your army's excesses. More were on their way. Despite repeated pleadings Pakistan refused to take these people back. You dragged India into this conflict. If you would have kept your affairs inside your boundaries, India need not have interfered.

Go read a few books on 1965. Pakistan started the war to take Kashmir but had to run back to save Lahore.

Your PM is on record stating what was Pakistani army's condition in 1999 and why he ran to washington DC.

Any dispute in Kashmir is between India the country to which the ruler of Kashmir aceded to and the people. Pakistan is not a party but a illegal occupier squatting on Kashmiri territory and sponsoring terrorism. If pakistan thinks interfering there means no interference then its dreaming.

 

[Hitman]

Wait till our padosees spin this into a "Islam Khatrey mey tha" hence all these wars ...

The easiest cop out is that whatever we know are all false propaganda by Indians and the West. Can you believe some posters over here still believe that the Mumbai attacks were inside jobs? I mean there is a limit to being blind.

PS: When you get a chance watch those Haqaani videos I posted earlier in this thread. Pretty damning.

I did watch them. There's a reason why the likes of Zaid Hamid have such hatred towards him.

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

Indian army has never killed it's own people like what Pakistanis did in 1971.

Why dont you tell us which war was started by India beginning with 1948 ? What was the provocation to start that war?

Being secular is not a joke. We realize that for most Pakistanis it's a joke but tell me something new.

What is the Indian army doing with the people in IOK? Are those actually water guns which have been disguised as pellet guns?

1971 war was started by India. Rest of them were initiated by PAK. Provocation was there from both sides, moreso from the Indians. I don't have the kind of time to write paragraphs on Indo-Pak history. Look it up and admit stuff. Don't go completely blind in patriotism.

Ofcourse being secular is a joke to us.

FYI, we're the ISLAMIC Republic of Pakistan. Secularism is as worthless to us as a banana peel.

You guys claim to be secular but now we all know how "secular" Hindu nationalists and extremists are with the rise of RSS and BJP's govt.

And I think I'll lay off for now. I thought logic could be one way to justify peace talks but the gigantic egos here know no boundaries and such egos are fuelled by the blood of the enemies' innocents.

 

[Hitman]

1971 war was started by India. Rest of them were initiated by PAK. Provocation was there from both sides, moreso from the Indians. I don't have the kind of time to write paragraphs on Indo-Pak history. Look it up and admit stuff. Don't go completely blind in patriotism.

Did India launch strikes on Pakistan, or did Pakistan launch strikes on India by the name of Operation Chengiz Khan which led to India crossing International borders in 1971?

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

Did India launch strikes on Pakistan, or did Pakistan launch strikes on India by the name of Operation Chengiz Khan which led to India crossing International borders in 1971?

Mukti Bahini, anyone? Ring a bell, does it? Trained by you know very well whom.

 

[Hitman]

Mukti Bahini, anyone? Ring a bell, does it? Trained by you know very well whom.

Mujahideens sent by Pakistan to Kashmir over the years to create trouble for India, does it ring a bell? Has India launched strikes in Pakistan due to that?

What about Pakistan's support to the Khalistan movement in the 70's and 80's? Did India launch strikes on Pakistan due to that?

 

[slipcatch]

You may want to learn how to quote my posts as I can't keep copying your posts.

Taliban don't run Pakistan but have support from Pakistan so therefore BJP whom you call extremist must have committed far more bigger atrocities( because they rule India) than the Taliban and various other rogue organizations that the ISI have openly helped.

Got it ? And good you truly realize who you really are - extremist terror supporter of Taliban . Well done !

Why did Pakistan support Taliban in Afghanistan?

Let’s see if you can enlighten us.

But let’s explain why would the largest democracy in the world would go extremists nationalists way?

Again, I know who I am and I’ve never revealed what and who I support? Maybe I supported Pakistan supporting Taliban and maybe I didn’t.

But why would any, mostly educated Indian, who doesn’t want their neighbor to support religious extremists would elect right wing extremists nationalists Hindu to rule them?

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

Mujahideens sent by Pakistan to Kashmir over the years to create trouble for India, does it ring a bell? Has India launched strikes in Pakistan due to that?

What about Pakistan's support to the Khalistan movement in the 70's and 80's? Did India launch strikes on Pakistan due to that?

How many times does every Indian have to be reminded to look at a damn ATLAS and notice that Kashmir is DISPUTED TERRITORY!!! Any Pakistan based move there isn't an interference. Similarly, any Indian move in Azad Kashmir isn't Indian interference as we don't have an international border there.

And are we seriously gonna compare the quantity of mujahideen trained by PAK for IOK and the quantity of Mukti Bahini rebels trained by IND army.

 

[ahsan17]

You can't compare Bangladesh or Balochistan v/s Kashmir, one being internationally recognized as disputed and the other two not. But anyway, Mukhti Bahni (and LTTE) are classic example of Indian "good terrorist bad terrorist" argument being invalid. Their state almost completely invented that, i.e. calling terrorists they like freedom fights, and calling ones they don't like "terrorists". But now these guys call out others for (allegedly) doing that.

 

[Hitman]

How many times does every Indian have to be reminded to look at a damn ATLAS and notice that Kashmir is DISPUTED TERRITORY!!! Any Pakistan based move there isn't an interference. Similarly, any Indian move in Azad Kashmir isn't Indian interference as we don't have an international border there.

And are we seriously gonna compare the quantity of mujahideen trained by PAK for IOK and the quantity of Mukti Bahini rebels trained by IND army.

Oh, really? So what exactly was the Shimla Agreement signed by both Indira Gandhi and Zulfikar Ali Bhutto on 2nd July, 1972?

In Jammu and Kashmir, the line of control resulting from the cease-fire of December 17, 1971 shall be respected by both sides without prejudice to the recognized position of either side. Neither side shall seek to alter it unilaterally, irrespective of mutual differences and legal interpretations. Both sides further undertake to refrain from the threat or the use of force in violation of this Line.

Link: https://mea.gov.in/in-focus-article.htm?19005/Simla+Agreement+July+2+1972



What exactly did Pakistan do in 1999 which is known as the Kargil War?

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

Oh, really? So what exactly was the Shimla Agreement signed by both Indira Gandhi and Zulfikar Ali Bhutto on 2nd July, 1972?




Link: https://mea.gov.in/in-focus-article.htm?19005/Simla+Agreement+July+2+1972



What exactly did Pakistan do in 1999 which is known as the Kargil War?

Keep your hand on your heart and tell me that there was ZERO aggression from Indian side from 1972 Simla Agreement till Kargil War 1999.

 

[Hitman]

Keep your hand on your heart and tell me that there was ZERO aggression from Indian side from 1972 Simla Agreement till Kargil War 1999.

How about you enlighten me? When exactly did India intent to intrude the LOC?

 

[enkidu_]

No Sh!t ehh. Pak thinks it is legitimate therefore war is justified and is not considered "meddling" . Well I got news for you. India thinks otherwise. Now what ?

I'm telling your there's rationale for Pak involvement in Kashmir, not only because it's a disputed territory but because the peoples of the land are the ones having pushed Pak to invade in '48, seeing at how the Degras were also using de facto "Indians" (Sikh militias of the Patiala state) to repress the freedom movement. Read Christopher Snedden. Point is Pak never intervened elsewhere in India before '71 because it simply recognized India's sovereignty, including the accessions of Junagadh or Hyderabad, let alone elsewhere. The problem is that you have the basic Hindu nationalistic script, that Pak has been created to "destroy" India - this rhetoric in Pak was a reaction to '71 with Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, who indeed was the first one to support Khalistan, but then his daughter was the reason the movement ended by helping Rajiv Gandhi.

So Rajiv Gandhi was killed by LTTE for helping them ?

Because of what they considered to be his U-turn/betrayal of the Tamil independence movement.

Don't tell me you're refuting any Indian role in a civil war which killed off 100 000 peoples/displaced 1 million ?

When it comes to '71 you're ready to accept all types of numbers but here you're über skeptical ?

I wonder it's the same reason you listen so carefully to Hussain Hack but consider Arundhati Roy to be an "urban Naxal".

 

[Tusker]

Why did Pakistan support Taliban in Afghanistan?

Let’s see if you can enlighten us.

It doesn't matter. Because Pakistan kept them employed by having them work against India after the WAr against Soviets was done. Go watch the videos I posted before you decide to get upset and start responding out of rage.

Again, I know who I am and I’ve never revealed what and who I support? Maybe I supported Pakistan supporting Taliban and maybe I didn’t.

Neither did I. So if you can arbitrarily hurl accusations at me so can I and faar more effectively than you can. I will indeed prove you are closer to the extremist ideologies provided you have the guts to stick around on this thread instead of running away like a spineless individual.

But why would any, mostly educated Indian, who doesn’t want their neighbor to support religious extremists would elect right wing extremists nationalists Hindu to rule them?

See below.

But let’s explain why would the largest democracy in the world would go extremists nationalists way?

Sure. as soon as you tell us how they are same as Taliban if not more by listing all the atrocities committed by BJP that are comparable to the Taliban. Lets start with suicide bombings. This is where I suspect you will either quietly run away from the thread howling and screaming or start the usual nautanki of shifting goal post.

 

[Tusker]

Ofcourse being secular is a joke to us.

FYI, we're the ISLAMIC Republic of Pakistan. Secularism is as worthless to us as a banana peel.

And this is the actual crux of the matter. Thanks for getting there so quickly. You see secularism is a universally accepted concept. If you do not recognize this simple concept it tells me that there is really no point in having this dialogue. Why ? Look into Islamic history and what they think about Idol worshipers which is how India is looked at. Let me know if you want me to elaborate.

And then you guys wonder why the entire world is against you. Well there is a very good reason. Your complete incompatibility with civilized norms and concepts. Its basically your way or highway.

 

[PakLFC]

Why are you jumping all over the place ? You mentioned Samjhauta & when i asked if it happened in Pakistan you said we are concerned where ever Pakistani's are killed & then i asked your view on Pakistani's being droned on their own soil you hop-step & jump to Yadav . Unable to give a cohesive answer ?

I am not jumping but sitting on my seat trying to make you impartial. I am giving you an example by mentioning Yadav who was caught in Pak. This is in response to your comment that as Pak's killed on the Samjhauta Express in India your country is free of blame!! Are you kiddin' me? What's the matter with Indian's like you? Why are you running away from the Samjhauta murders?

 

[waqar goraya]

As I said .... India has tried the lets take the first step approach more than once and got burnt badly. Why dont you start by explaining how that came to be ?

So therefore if Imran really means what he says the onus is completely on him to take decisive and big steps before he can be taken seriously.

Pakistan has already taken first step by offering unconditional peace talks on all issues, Kashmir and terrorism. There has also been this goodwill gesture of Kirtarpur corridor.

Gives and takes can only happen when you begin talks. Make road maps and commitments.

 

[slipcatch]

It doesn't matter. Because Pakistan kept them employed by having them work against India after the WAr against Soviets was done. Go watch the videos I posted before you decide to get upset and start responding out of rage.



Neither did I. So if you can arbitrarily hurl accusations at me so can I and faar more effectively than you can. I will indeed prove you are closer to the extremist ideologies provided you have the guts to stick around on this thread instead of running away like a spineless individual.



See below.




Sure. as soon as you tell us how they are same as Taliban if not more by listing all the atrocities committed by BJP that are comparable to the Taliban. Lets start with suicide bombings. This is where I suspect you will either quietly run away from the thread howling and screaming or start the usual nautanki of shifting goal post.

LOL.

Why would a supporter of largest democracy in the world try to compare their elected extremists nationalists hindu government to Taliban?

What is suitable measure on the scale is Okay for the government to be extremists.

Now please enlighten us, why and what made Pakistan to start supporting Taliban? Enlighten us, I would really like to hear someone who support radicalized extremists nationalsts hindu government and RSS.

All you are doing trying to justify the rise in radicalized extremism nationalist hinduism in India's government and public.

And please prove that i am closer to extremist ideology than you are. I didn't you were competing. LOL hahah

 

[slipcatch]

Pakistan has already taken first step by offering unconditional peace talks on all issues, Kashmir and terrorism. There has also been this goodwill gesture of Kirtarpur corridor.

Gives and takes can only happen when you begin talks. Make road maps and commitments.

Government of India, Army and RSS need a boogie man to stay relevant. There will be no peace at least until after election.

How do you expect them to fetch votes from people like Tusker if they aren't supporting their extremist ideology?

 

[cricketjoshila]

Oh, really? So what exactly was the Shimla Agreement signed by both Indira Gandhi and Zulfikar Ali Bhutto on 2nd July, 1972?




Link: https://mea.gov.in/in-focus-article.htm?19005/Simla+Agreement+July+2+1972



What exactly did Pakistan do in 1999 which is known as the Kargil War?

Before this there was a ceasefire agreement in 1949. Pakistan keeps violating agreements on Kashmir. So these peace talks are useless.

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

And this is the actual crux of the matter. Thanks for getting there so quickly. You see secularism is a universally accepted concept. If you do not recognize this simple concept it tells me that there is really no point in having this dialogue. Why ? Look into Islamic history and what they think about Idol worshipers which is how India is looked at. Let me know if you want me to elaborate.

And then you guys wonder why the entire world is against you. Well there is a very good reason. Your complete incompatibility with civilized norms and concepts. Its basically your way or highway.

Hold it right there. Don't shove personal opinion upon the world as a "fact".

So what, if India is looked at in that way? No offense to all the idol worshippers out there but I don't get polytheism at all. How can you just randomly choose who created you or who fulfills your wishes. How does it all work? And how do you figure out which of those 100s is YOUR God/Lord? Or do you just follow in the footsteps of your forefathers? This is not a taunt in anyway. Its a genuine question.

China isn't against us. Almost the entire Middle East isn't against us. The fact that your world revolves around UK/USA/India/The West doesn't mean its the same for everyone else. Just because we're not secular isn't stopping anyone with having diplomatic relations with us.
Pakistanis are found everywhere; in every major country of the world. We maintain 86 embassies and 75 consulates around the world. At the same time, Islamabad is host to 79 embassies and 145 consulates.

I can go on and on as to how relevant Pakistan is in the world but you seem to be another in the long line of "Mera Bharat Mahan" fanatics who think of Pakistan as a failed state full of terrorists, extremists and mobs who contribute nothing to the world.

Come out of your rock and accept Pakistan as the nuclear power that it is today.

Just because India is against us doesn't mean the entire world is against us.

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

How about you enlighten me? When exactly did India intent to intrude the LOC?

No no no.

I want you to actually have the courage to type it right here on this forum. You honestly believe there was ZERO aggression/provocation from IND from 1972 Simla agreement till Kargil 1999.

 

[Tusker]

Hold it right there. Don't shove personal opinion upon the world as a "fact".

My opinion ? Here have a look at what the UN thinks of freedom of religion: https://www.ohchr.org/en/issues/freedomreligion/pages/standards.aspx

Its a basic Human Right !!

So yeah the fact that even educated Muslims dont get such a simple thing is the reason why the Islamic world is always looked at negatively by the rest of the world. Its quite shocking.

So what, if India is looked at in that way? No offense to all the idol worshippers out there but I don't get polytheism at all. How can you just randomly choose who created you or who fulfills your wishes. How does it all work? And how do you figure out which of those 100s is YOUR God/Lord? Or do you just follow in the footsteps of your forefathers? This is not a taunt in anyway. Its a genuine question.

It doesnt matter how stupid my ideology looks to you. As long as it does not violate basic tenets of Human rights and decency I have the right to practice it.

China isn't against us. Almost the entire Middle East isn't against us. The fact that your world revolves around UK/USA/India/The West doesn't mean its the same for everyone else. Just because we're not secular isn't stopping anyone with having diplomatic relations with us.
Pakistanis are found everywhere; in every major country of the world. We maintain 86 embassies and 75 consulates around the world. At the same time, Islamabad is host to 79 embassies and 145 consulates.

I can go on and on as to how relevant Pakistan is in the world but you seem to be another in the long line of "Mera Bharat Mahan" fanatics who think of Pakistan as a failed state full of terrorists, extremists and mobs who contribute nothing to the world.

Come out of your rock and accept Pakistan as the nuclear power that it is today.

Just because India is against us doesn't mean the entire world is against us.

Let me assure you ... the no.of countries that have issues with Pakistan is faar more than those that have issues with India. And having diplomatic relations isnt exactly the way to measure this. Otherwise you will have the US listed under the "having no issues with Pakistan" category. Because otherwise it wouldn't be literally invading Pakistan to take out OBL or engaging in Drone strikes in your territories and actively working to impose sanctions (FATF). These are all hard facts that you cannot deny. I suggest you first go thru the video links I posted earlier in this thread. They aren't made by a "Mera Bharat Mahan type person"

Here are the links again:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qdm2pfcGxzw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YLuNQOcetY

https://youtu.be/t_OsGCCnKro?t=1120

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qezdk-uEhm8


And this link: https://signup.politics.uchicago.edu...18-haqqani.pdf

One damning tidbit from that link: The US launched Cruise Missiles aimed at Bin Laden's hide out back in the 90s and informed the Pakistani Army Chief just few hours before the strikes and guess what Bin-Laden escaped. The damning bit is that this continued EVEN After he was killed in 2011. They gave information about a Terrorist camp and informed Gen. Kayani about the location and the time when it was going to be taken out. They also setup a surveillance using drones and sure enough 20 mins before the attack someone came in a bike and informed and in mins they packed up and left. Its on Pg 8-9

 

[Tusker]

LOL.

Why would a supporter of largest democracy in the world try to compare their elected extremists nationalists hindu government to Taliban?

What is suitable measure on the scale is Okay for the government to be extremists.

You tell me . Because you were the one that keeps calling them (the BJP) as " Radicalized Extremists". That term also applies to the Taliban.

Now please enlighten us, why and what made Pakistan to start supporting Taliban? Enlighten us, I would really like to hear someone who support radicalized extremists nationalsts hindu government and RSS.

As I told you it does not matter as to why Pakistan started to support them. What matters is why they used them against India.

And please prove that i am closer to extremist ideology than you are. I didn't you were competing. LOL hahah

I already did that using your own "Standards" for categorizing people. I just randomly and arbitrarily told you that you were a Taliban supporter. Isn't that enough? Ohh wait I almost forgot - You know who you are )

As I said I can play this game too !

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

[MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION]

What the hell?

At one moment we're talking about secularism and another moment we're talking about freedom of religion!!!

Since when did Islam deny freedom of religion???

You think Muslims don't believe in freedom of religion?

Learn a thing or two about Islam first then tell me which human rights are being violated. Its embarrassing to know that you think Muslims want to deny freedom of religion for everyone.
Where do you get such gems from? Fox News or Indian media?

NO tenet of human rights and decency is violated by Islam.

FYI, neither the US nor the UK are any criteria for differing between right and wrong. Oh and if PAK were as irrelevant as you're trying to make us or as much of a nuisance as you like to imagine then the following wouldn't have happened: https://edition.cnn.com/2018/12/03/politics/trump-khan-letter/index.html

Also, why would you want to believe that PAK gave OBL shelter for decades? What was in it for us?

 

[ILcricket]

I am not jumping but sitting on my seat trying to make you impartial. I am giving you an example by mentioning Yadav who was caught in Pak. This is in response to your comment that as Pak's killed on the Samjhauta Express in India your country is free of blame!! Are you kiddin' me? What's the matter with Indian's like you? Why are you running away from the Samjhauta murders?

no one is , but why Paks most wanted list has names for crimes/ terror attacks not on their soil [ you brought it up,remember ] but elsewhere & yet turns a blind eye towards the Drone/Dollar killings on its own soil ?

 

[PakLFC]

no one is , but why Paks most wanted list has names for crimes/ terror attacks not on their soil [ you brought it up,remember ] but elsewhere & yet turns a blind eye towards the Drone/Dollar killings on its own soil ?

Coz the government at the time when drone attacks were happening were in cahoots with the Americans. It is well known among Pakistanis that Zardari and Sharif are traitors. Our list contains names of people who have committed crimes on Pak soil for sure. Have you seen the list that you believe for it to be otherwise?

 

[slipcatch]

You tell me . Because you were the one that keeps calling them (the BJP) as " Radicalized Extremists". That term also applies to the Taliban.



As I told you it does not matter as to why Pakistan started to support them. What matters is why they used them against India.




I already did that using your own "Standards" for categorizing people. I just randomly and arbitrarily told you that you were a Taliban supporter. Isn't that enough? Ohh wait I almost forgot - You know who you are )

As I said I can play this game too !

You seem to be just keep getting upset when some one call you supporter and sympathizer of radicalized extremists nationalists hindu party, embrace it, come out in open and admit, not that you have to, since you have made your view clear multiple times by blaming the minority for them getting killed by radicalized Hindus extremists. Your party and religious party (RSS) leader wants to keep the minority subservient to Hindu's, burnt & demolished mosques and build temple, minimize child birth rate of minority in fear of them taking over hindu majority, and murder people for transporting cows.

Embrace it for you to become a true soldier of RSS.

 

[Tusker]

You seem to be just keep getting upset when some one call you supporter and sympathizer of radicalized extremists nationalists hindu party, embrace it, come out in open and admit, not that you have to, since you have made your view clear multiple times by blaming the minority for them getting killed by radicalized Hindus extremists. Your party and religious party (RSS) leader wants to keep the minority subservient to Hindu's, burnt & demolished mosques and build temple, minimize child birth rate of minority in fear of them taking over hindu majority, and murder people for transporting cows.

Embrace it for you to become a true soldier of RSS.

You seem to get bent out of shape when someone calls you a supporter of Taliban - the believers who believe more in suicide bombs and guns than anything else. Don't be shy come out in the open and embrace your fellow Talibs who will greatly appreciate your support.

And ?

Ohh wait I almost forgot - You know who you are !!!

 

[Tusker]

[MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION]

What the hell?

At one moment we're talking about secularism and another moment we're talking about freedom of religion!!!

Since when did Islam deny freedom of religion???

You think Muslims don't believe in freedom of religion?

Learn a thing or two about Islam first then tell me which human rights are being violated. Its embarrassing to know that you think Muslims want to deny freedom of religion for everyone.
Where do you get such gems from? Fox News or Indian media?

NO tenet of human rights and decency is violated by Islam.

Freedom of religion ( without being advantaged or disadvantaged as a consequence of that choice ) is one of the most basic requirements of Secularism. There is more to Secularism but lets start from there.

As far as Islam is concerned: any chance you know whats the penalty for quitting Islam? If Islam was such a tolerant religion what happened to all the minorities in the Islamic World over the centuries ? Martians came and abducted them ? Ever heard of Jizya ? Ever heard of Dhimmi's ?

FYI, neither the US nor the UK are any criteria for differing between right and wrong. Oh and if PAK were as irrelevant as you're trying to make us or as much of a nuisance as you like to imagine then the following wouldn't have happened: https://edition.cnn.com/2018/12/03/politics/trump-khan-letter/index.html

So counties having no issues with Pakistan normally use drones and invade your territory and activey work to get you into unwanted lists ? What kind of reasoning is this ?

Trump is trying his luck with the new ruler in town. Once he finds out he is no different he too will use Plan-B.

Also, why would you want to believe that PAK gave OBL shelter for decades? What was in it for us?

There is nothing to believe here. he was caught red-handed in Pakistan living near a military establishment for years. Thats a hard fact. I suggest you watch the clips I posted.

 

[Hitman]

No no no.

I want you to actually have the courage to type it right here on this forum. You honestly believe there was ZERO aggression/provocation from IND from 1972 Simla agreement till Kargil 1999.

First, provocation is not equal to violation. Did India ever intent to alter the LOC after signing the Shimla Agreement in 1971? If yes, then kindly let us know when? Which country blatantly violated the Shimla Agreement in 1999?

 

[ILcricket]

Coz the government at the time when drone attacks were happening were in cahoots with the Americans. It is well known among Pakistanis that Zardari and Sharif are traitors. Our list contains names of people who have committed crimes on Pak soil for sure. Have you seen the list that you believe for it to be otherwise?

post it . You refuse to give a straight answer . I trust IK is NOT a traitor , has he fine tuned the list & added those responsible for drone-dollar killings as per your stated policy of everything which involves Pakistanis anywhere has a bearing on the list .

 

[PakLFC]

post it . You refuse to give a straight answer . I trust IK is NOT a traitor , has he fine tuned the list & added those responsible for drone-dollar killings as per your stated policy of everything which involves Pakistanis anywhere has a bearing on the list .

The answer is very straight where I am standing. Now tell me what is India gonna do about Pak's killed on the Samjhauta Express?

"I trust IK is NOT a traitor , has he fine tuned the list & added those responsible for drone-dollar killings as per your stated policy of everything which involves Pakistanis anywhere has a bearing on the list ." What is this supposed to mean?

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

Freedom of religion ( without being advantaged or disadvantaged as a consequence of that choice ) is one of the most basic requirements of Secularism. There is more to Secularism but lets start from there.

As far as Islam is concerned: any chance you know whats the penalty for quitting Islam? If Islam was such a tolerant religion what happened to all the minorities in the Islamic World over the centuries ? Martians came and abducted them ? Ever heard of Jizya ? Ever heard of Dhimmi's ?

So counties having no issues with Pakistan normally use drones and invade your territory and activey work to get you into unwanted lists ? What kind of reasoning is this ?

Trump is trying his luck with the new ruler in town. Once he finds out he is no different he too will use Plan-B.

There is nothing to believe here. he was caught red-handed in Pakistan living near a military establishment for years. Thats a hard fact. I suggest you watch the clips I posted.

Interesting to see that when it comes to freedom of religion you're asking questions AFTER a person has accepted Islam with their free will and then want to quit. I personally find this particular issue interesting but I'd liken it to punishment for quitting the army.

Straight answer: if there is a theological basis for desertion then that's fine but if there are political/evil motives then the punishment is death for men (no repentance accepted in case of intentions to attack Islam in any way but repentance/plea bargain can be done in other cases) and life imprisonment for women (repentance accepted in all cases).

We do have minorities in the Islamic World. Pakistan alone has a 10% minority population excluding Shia's (who're around 10-12%). Egypt has 20% minority/Non-Muslim population. Countless others. I don't understand where you're getting your info from.

And what's so unfair about Jizya (also, majority of Islamic countries don't even enforce Jizya so, honestly, its non-issue but oh well)?

You're not living in a secular nation, you're living in an Islamic nation that's dictated by Shariah laws and hence you have to pay Jizya or leave. We're not talking high taxes either, Jizya is an incredibly miniscule amount. It varies according to the affordability of the local people and at its peak in those times worth around today's 10-12 dirhams PER ANNUM. Jizya exemptions apply for women, children, elders, handicapped, the ill, the insane, monks, hermits, slaves, and musta'mins—non-Muslim foreigners who only temporarily reside in Muslim lands.

So don't try to present Jizya as some sort of evil Muslim tax scheme that's worth millions. Again, I don't see any human right being violated here.

Remind me of the last time a drone attack happened in Pakistan?

You wanna worry about FATF, fine, cry about it then.
Truth is, under international law an FATF blacklist carries no formal sanction.

Unlike you, I like to do my homework comprehensively.

Oh you can damn well be sure that Imran Khan is different. I don't need lessons in PTI's politics from you.

When did I deny that OBL was living in Abbotabad and was killed by US forces?

What amuses me the most is that people quickly put 2 and 2 together and say that ISI was in bed with OBL but what their tiny minds fail to observe is that if ISI was hiding OBL for decades (according to many sources) how come OBL was killed with relative ease and hardly much fuss once his location was known? How come ISI who had been masterfully hiding OBL for many years suddenly leave him exposed in the middle of a town? Did they suddenly lose their brains or something?

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

First, provocation is not equal to violation. Did India ever intent to alter the LOC after signing the Shimla Agreement in 1971? If yes, then kindly let us know when? Which country blatantly violated the Shimla Agreement in 1999?

So you do admit that provocation was going on and when I say provocation, I mean physical not verbal.

Pakistan did.

 

[Hitman]

So you do admit that provocation was going on and when I say provocation, I mean physical not verbal.

Pakistan did.

Not at all, I never admitted anything. I merely mentioned that provocation is not equal to violation. Or else India could have launched strikes in Pakistan for them supporting the Khalistan movement in the 70's and 80's. Or maybe after the attack in the Indian Parliament, or after the Mumbai attacks. Those were proper physical attacks by Pakistan on Indian soil. The issue here is who violated the Shimla Agreement, India or Pakistan?

Violation is exactly what Pakistan shamelessly did in 1999.

 

[aukhan]

Pakistan should forget Kashmir and there will be peace. The national obsession with Kashmir is the only reason why the army continues to loot our budget. The common man in Pakistan is suffering because of Kashmir.

 

[Tusker]

Interesting to see that when it comes to freedom of religion you're asking questions AFTER a person has accepted Islam with their free will and then want to quit. I personally find this particular issue interesting but I'd liken it to punishment for quitting the army.

Straight answer: if there is a theological basis for desertion then that's fine but if there are political/evil motives then the punishment is death for men (no repentance accepted in case of intentions to attack Islam in any way but repentance/plea bargain can be done in other cases) and life imprisonment for women (repentance accepted in all cases).

We do have minorities in the Islamic World. Pakistan alone has a 10% minority population excluding Shia's (who're around 10-12%). Egypt has 20% minority/Non-Muslim population. Countless others. I don't understand where you're getting your info from.

And what's so unfair about Jizya (also, majority of Islamic countries don't even enforce Jizya so, honestly, its non-issue but oh well)?

You're not living in a secular nation, you're living in an Islamic nation that's dictated by Shariah laws and hence you have to pay Jizya or leave. We're not talking high taxes either, Jizya is an incredibly miniscule amount. It varies according to the affordability of the local people and at its peak in those times worth around today's 10-12 dirhams PER ANNUM. Jizya exemptions apply for women, children, elders, handicapped, the ill, the insane, monks, hermits, slaves, and musta'mins—non-Muslim foreigners who only temporarily reside in Muslim lands.

So don't try to present Jizya as some sort of evil Muslim tax scheme that's worth millions. Again, I don't see any human right being violated here.

So thanks for confirming that you cannot leave Islam unconditionally if one doesnt like it and that minorities are reqd to pay taxes just because they are from a different religion. That is a blatant violation of "Freedom of Religion" therefore my point stands.

The minority hindu population in Pakistan stands at less than 2% now. Whereas at the time of PArtition it was atleast 10%. That tells you the story of what happens to minorities in a Muslim country.

Just 30 yrs ago the entire Kashmiri Pandit community was forced out from their homeland. And here you are arguing that Islam allows "Freedom of religion" ? Talk about blatantly and categorically lying.

Remind me of the last time a drone attack happened in Pakistan?

You wanna worry about FATF, fine, cry about it then.
Truth is, under international law an FATF blacklist carries no formal sanction.

Unlike you, I like to do my homework comprehensively.

Oh you can damn well be sure that Imran Khan is different. I don't need lessons in PTI's politics from you.

When did I deny that OBL was living in Abbotabad and was killed by US forces?

What amuses me the most is that people quickly put 2 and 2 together and say that ISI was in bed with OBL but what their tiny minds fail to observe is that if ISI was hiding OBL for decades (according to many sources) how come OBL was killed with relative ease and hardly much fuss once his location was known? How come ISI who had been masterfully hiding OBL for many years suddenly leave him exposed in the middle of a town? Did they suddenly lose their brains or something?

It doesn't matter when the last drone attack happened unless the answer is NEVER. OBL was fished out without any help from Pakistan Military or Govt. and it wasnt easy at all. It took the US many years of painstaking intelligence work. The doctor who helped the US find him was actually jailed. That tells you how messed up things are in Pakistan.

And if you dont Deny OBL was living in Pak what are you arguing against ?

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

So thanks for confirming that you cannot leave Islam unconditionally if one doesnt like it and that minorities are reqd to pay taxes just because they are from a different religion. That is a blatant violation of "Freedom of Religion" therefore my point stands.

The minority hindu population in Pakistan stands at less than 2% now. Whereas at the time of PArtition it was atleast 10%. That tells you the story of what happens to minorities in a Muslim country.

Just 30 yrs ago the entire Kashmiri Pandit community was forced out from their homeland. And here you are arguing that Islam allows "Freedom of religion" ? Talk about blatantly and categorically lying.

It doesn't matter when the last drone attack happened unless the answer is NEVER. OBL was fished out without any help from Pakistan Military or Govt. and it wasnt easy at all. It took the US many years of painstaking intelligence work. The doctor who helped the US find him was actually jailed. That tells you how messed up things are in Pakistan.

And if you dont Deny OBL was living in Pak what are you arguing against ?

Are you trying to imply that if someone has signed a contract to maintain confidentiality and fails to keep it confidential then he shouldn't be penalised because of "Freedom of Speech"? Are you drunk or something? Before entering the fold of Islam, you know there's (almost) no way back so you should be sensible enough to know that if you leave, (after accepting it) there will be consequences, just like there is a death penalty if you leave your army during a war. You had all the freedom to keep your religion or choose Islam and were told that you can't leave Islam without consequences so how do we get from here to Islam violating "Freedom of Religion".

Islams allows freedom of religion but Muslims aren't perfect. It isn't Islam's fault that Muslims aren't observing it properly. Don't accuse without proof. There's no lies here. I know my Islam and there is complete "Freedom of Religion". Keep your religion but just pay 3 cents a day. How is that a violation of any right?

If time isn't being considered here then let's go way back to Mughal era. No no no let's go even further, let's find some conflict among Mohenjo Daro civilisation just to avoid peace talks. I mean there's a level of being absolutely senseless and then there's this. Oh bhai, abhi ki baat karo na.

It took them just one year to be absolutely sure that OBL was the among the residents of the compound and they completed their operation in 40 mins.

I deny that ISI/PAK was intentionally sheltering OBL.

 

[Tusker]

Are you trying to imply that if someone has signed a contract to maintain confidentiality and fails to keep it confidential then he shouldn't be penalised because of "Freedom of Speech"? Are you drunk or something? Before entering the fold of Islam, you know there's (almost) no way back so you should be sensible enough to know that if you leave, (after accepting it) there will be consequences, just like there is a death penalty if you leave your army during a war. You had all the freedom to keep your religion or choose Islam and were told that you can't leave Islam without consequences so how do we get from here to Islam violating "Freedom of Religion".

You need to first understand what absolute freedom means in the matter of religion. There is no legal contract involved here like you are trying to tell. It means no strings attached. If one finds Islam to have serious shortcomings (or indeed for no reason at all) after getting into it they must not only be allowed to exit but also must have the right to publicly criticize those shortcomings without any repercussions whatsoever.

thats what true freedom of choice in matters of religion actually means. Laughable that you even thought Islam had such a thing.

So this is the single biggest problem with muslims ... even the educated ones. Quite disturbing that you JUST DO NOT EVER get these simple concepts at all do you ?. What the hell !!!

Islams allows freedom of religion but Muslims aren't perfect. It isn't Islam's fault that Muslims aren't observing it properly. Don't accuse without proof. There's no lies here. I know my Islam and there is complete "Freedom of Religion". Keep your religion but just pay 3 cents a day. How is that a violation of any right?

Forget complete freedom ... thats actually being punitive for no other reason than believing in another religion. Again simply no understanding of basic concepts of right and wrong. WTH !!!

If time isn't being considered here then let's go way back to Mughal era. No no no let's go even further, let's find some conflict among Mohenjo Daro civilisation just to avoid peace talks. I mean there's a level of being absolutely senseless and then there's this. Oh bhai, abhi ki baat karo na.

Not sure how Mohenjo Darro is releveant here.

It took them just one year to be absolutely sure that OBL was the among the residents of the compound and they completed their operation in 40 mins.

Not true considering that he went off the radar many years before he was found living in Pak. His hunt was started under George Bush and he wasn't found until 2 yrs after Obama became president.

I deny that ISI/PAK was intentionally sheltering OBL.

You can deny all you want but those are widely accepted facts.. Did you watch those videos I posted earlier in Post#109 ? Watch them before you respond.

 

[cricketjoshila]

You need to first understand what absolute freedom means in the matter of religion. There is no legal contract involved here like you are trying to tell. It means no strings attached. If one finds Islam to have serious shortcomings (or indeed for no reason at all) after getting into it they must not only be allowed to exit but also must have the right to publicly criticize those shortcomings without any repercussions whatsoever.

thats what true freedom of choice in matters of religion actually means. Laughable that you even thought Islam had such a thing.

So this is the single biggest problem with muslims ... even the educated ones. Quite disturbing that you JUST DO NOT EVER get these simple concepts at all do you ?. What the hell !!!




Forget complete freedom ... thats actually being punitive for no other reason than believing in another religion. Again simply no understanding of basic concepts of right and wrong. WTH !!!




Not sure how Mohenjo Darro is releveant here.




Not true considering that he went off the radar many years before he was found living in Pak. His hunt was started under George Bush and he wasn't found until 2 yrs after Obama became president.



You can deny all you want but those are widely accepted facts.. Did you watch those videos I posted earlier in Post#109 ? Watch them before you respond.

So religion is a contract. Fine. Then why does Islam and muslims try to convert people of other religion?

 

[Tusker]

So religion is a contract. Fine. Then why does Islam and muslims try to convert people of other religion?

Because other religions don't have a contract. So easy to raid.

 

[ILcricket]

The answer is very straight where I am standing. Now tell me what is India gonna do about Pak's killed on the Samjhauta Express?

"I trust IK is NOT a traitor , has he fine tuned the list & added those responsible for drone-dollar killings as per your stated policy of everything which involves Pakistanis anywhere has a bearing on the list ." What is this supposed to mean?

it is in English .

 

[PakLFC]

it is in English .

Then you have to put it in a way that I can understand your question.