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'We lay like corpses': Bangladesh's 1970s rape camp survivors speak out (The Guardian)

The awami league with mujib did win the election of 1970, winning all 160 parlamentary seats allocated to the province of east pakistan. However, the awarmi league did not win a single seat in the four western provinces of pakistan. Furthermore, it was found that mujib and his party had boken the 'legal framework order' which was the basis of this first time democratic election in pakistan. The order was introduced when the 5 provinces of pakistan were declared and required the acceptance of one united islamic country . However , it was established that mujib and his awarmi league party had been meeting high level indians officials continuously, since 1962, seeking indian aid for independence of east pakistan and india had complied with these requests.
So basically, mujib and his awarmi league party had committed treason, so mujib and his awarmi league party were declared unfit to govern pakistan.

Aggressors always find justifications for their aggression by blaming the victims for having done something wrong. Hitler claimed that he was forced to attack the Soviet Union because the Soviets were planning to attack him.

As for the "legal framework order" begin broken, the order itself was an imposition by a dictator and not something which the people had voted for.

Breaking an order which a dictator has imposed may be "treason" to you, but not to everyone. Nor would everyone agree that a dictator should decide who is fit and who is not fit to govern a country.

East pakistan were treated incredibly generously, by pakistan, given 160 parliament seats out of 300. Even though east pakistan had only one popular political party - the awarmi league.

Giving the majority of the people the majority of seats in a parliament is not being "treated incredibly generously", especially when the dictator refused to follow through and transfer power to the East Pakistani winner of the elections.

West Pakistan treated East Pakistan like an economic colony, with less than a third of government budget going to East Pakistan even though it had more than half the population.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Pakistan#Economic_discrimination_and_disparity

Whereas , the 4 western provinces were given only 140 parliamentary seats, even though there were several popular political parties - PPP and several differenr versions of the muslim league.

Dude, number of seats are supposed to be based on the number of people, not the number of "popular political parties".

Therefore, it was known beforehand that the east pakistan province would win the elections and president yahya khan was adviced to change the parliamentary seats allocation to 60 seats per province, but refused, and insisted the seats should be allocated according to the population of each province and as east pakistan had a larger population than the combined 4 provinces of western pakistan, they were allocated 160 seats out of 300.

Obviously ridiculous to allot 60 seats to provinces with 10% or less of the population when another province with more than 50% of the population gets 60 seats.

So, it was known, a foregone conclusion that east pakistan would win the election and president yahya had no problems with that(as he would be running the country no matter who won the election) but it was the treasonous activities of mujib and the awarmi league party which lead to them being disqualified from claiming office. Mujib, immediately revealed his and his party true colours , by declaring independence for east pakistan.

Hope this sheds some light on your query.

Again, in a democracy it is the people who get to decide who rules, not a dictator who decides who has and who has not committed "treason". Obviously Yahya started out wanting representation according to population but later when faced with the actual prospect of Mujib becoming PM resorted to violence.

At a meeting on 22 February 1971, the Pakistani President General Yahya Khan is recorded as saying in fury: “Kill three million of them, and the rest will eat out of our hands.” Ten million fled to India; 30 million left the cities and went to the villages.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/the-war-bangladesh-can-never-forget-8501636.html
 
Aggressors always find justifications for their aggression by blaming the victims for having done something wrong. Hitler claimed that he was forced to attack the Soviet Union because the Soviets were planning to attack him.

As for the "legal framework order" begin broken, the order itself was an imposition by a dictator and not something which the people had voted for.

Breaking an order which a dictator has imposed may be "treason" to you, but not to everyone. Nor would everyone agree that a dictator should decide who is fit and who is not fit to govern a country.



Giving the majority of the people the majority of seats in a parliament is not being "treated incredibly generously", especially when the dictator refused to follow through and transfer power to the East Pakistani winner of the elections.

West Pakistan treated East Pakistan like an economic colony, with less than a third of government budget going to East Pakistan even though it had more than half the population.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Pakistan#Economic_discrimination_and_disparity



Dude, number of seats are supposed to be based on the number of people, not the number of "popular political parties".



Obviously ridiculous to allot 60 seats to provinces with 10% or less of the population when another province with more than 50% of the population gets 60 seats.



Again, in a democracy it is the people who get to decide who rules, not a dictator who decides who has and who has not committed "treason". Obviously Yahya started out wanting representation according to population but later when faced with the actual prospect of Mujib becoming PM resorted to violence.

You seem very angry, i am just telling what happened.
Let me respond to some of your points:

1. Now i have very little respect for president yahya, because i think he was politically inept, but you keep calling him a dictator, which technically he was, but he was allowing the first free democratic electons in pakistan history. Give him some credit.
Furthermore, Pakistan had only been a nation for 23 years at this point, 23 turbulent years, with a much larger nation- india, next to it, trying its best at all times to destable it. For a initial period of stability, it was decided by the military to take control of the country until it was stable and then hold free and fair elections, which it did.
Even furthermore, many people in Pakistan, prefer a military regime in charge than a civilian government, as these have been found to be corrupt time and time again.

2. The legal framework order of all 5 newly created provinces accepting one united islamic state is the most sensible and logical thing any nation would implement, when creating provinces with limited self governing powers.
There is no sensible argument against this, 5 provinces were created, not 5 independent states!

3. Mujib ur rahman and the awarmi league were unfit to run Pakistan , as they had been for at least a decade seeking assistance from an enemy state, to achieve independence i.e. committing treason! This is well documented, not just by pakistani sources, but international sources, including the American intelligence services. Do some google searches and you will find out, so stop trying to say this was a lie, when it is a FACT! Comparing this to hitler and germany/ russia war is ridiculous, as those are two independent sovereign nations who went to war and not one sovereign nation, as pakistan was at that time, but irrational and biased people like yourself always refer to crazy hitler analogies.
By the way, stalin did go on and invade many independent and sovereign nations, so who knows if stalin did or did not have plans to wage war against germany or not!

You just have to see what has happened in catalonia to its treasonous politicians(sent to jail) for trying to unilaterally declare independence.

4. Your comprehension skills leave alot to be desired, at no point did i say parliamentary seats should be based on the number of political parties in the province, i was just highlighting the number of popular political parties per region and that it was obvious to anyone with any political acumen that the awarmi league would be virtually unchallenged in its 160 seats and win all of them, whereas, the PPP party would be challenged in the western provinces, due to there being several popular political parties.
Even if the PPP was successful in winning all its seats, it could only amass 140 seats, compared to the awarmi leagues 160.
Thats why yahya advisers advised against allocating seats according to province poulation and to allocate seats according to an equal share per province. As you are ignorant, let me advise you that both systems are used and accepted in the democratic world, America uses the second system and its called the 'College electoral system'! Thats why many american presidents become president by winning the college elecoral vote, but have actually received in total less votes than their rivals(popular vote), an example would be george w. Bush!

5. There is no rule to divide to the budget according to popuation of regions or provinces, the government has to divide its resources to meet the needs of the people the best it can, especially when resource are limited, as they were for a nation only 23 years old. This is done throughout the democratic world and is not an anomaly, otherwise you get heavily populated, wealthy regions and less pooulated vastly undeveloped poor regions.
Currently, the uk are trying to rebalance the economic divide between the vastly populated london and south east and the much less populated and much poorer northern regions by investing and creating infrastructure in the north- the nortern powerhouses, obviously, there is resistance from london and the south east.
As far as using east pakistan as a economical colony, most countries have regions which are economically doing better than other regions, like london and the south east mentioned above, and any competent government would redistribute this wealth across poorer regions.
A thread on here recently showed how most of india's goverment taxes came from a handful of indian states, such as maharasta and mumbai in particular, does that mean mumbai is an indian economical colony?
These type of facts are used for poltical prpaganda.!

6. President yahya saying kill 3 million etc, i dont know if its true or not but if he did say it, whose to know if he meant it or was just using as a soundbite for the western provinces. If he did mean it, then i completely and wholly condem him .
In reality a war broke out, architectured by india and if you had any knowledge about war, you would know not just devastation occurs but many atrocities will occur, as i stated earlier, the first casualty of war is humanity.
Now you can talk about who committed the most atrocities in the war and who is more evil, for your political points scoring, but the fact is WAR IS EVIL, one atrocity is one too many.
Indians love to talk about pakitani atrocities committed in the bangladesh war, which they helped to instigate, but never mention the atrocities committed by bangladeshis on western pakistan residents in eastern pakistan at the time and the pro pakistani bihari people.
I have personal experience of this as my great uncle was slaughter by his bengladeshi workers during the war, leaving his young wife a widow and his children orphans.
So please stop degrading the memories of the victim of war for your politcal point scoring!!


In summary, no matter about your bias and hate for Pakistan, pakistan held its first free and fair elections in 1970, knowing full well that the eastern province would win the election and did not try to prevent it by changing the system, Pakistan was fully prepared to allow the traitor mujibur rahman and his traituous party to rule pakistan, until they were informed by americsn secret services, about mujib and awarmi league traituous decade long activities, conspiring with our most ardent enemy - india!
Hence, mujib and the awarmi league were disallowed from taking office and before legal preceedings were able to be performed on these traitors, they declared independence at the bequest of trouble making and vindictive india, who still to this day can not get over that fact that we pakistanis rejected your anti muslim nation and created our own wonderful and precious PAKISTAN!
PAKISTAN ZINDABAD!!!
Stick that in your pipe and smoke it!
 
You seem very angry, i am just telling what happened.
Let me respond to some of your points:

1. Now i have very little respect for president yahya, because i think he was politically inept, but you keep calling him a dictator, which technically he was, but he was allowing the first free democratic electons in pakistan history. Give him some credit.
Furthermore, Pakistan had only been a nation for 23 years at this point, 23 turbulent years, with a much larger nation- india, next to it, trying its best at all times to destable it. For a initial period of stability, it was decided by the military to take control of the country until it was stable and then hold free and fair elections, which it did.
Even furthermore, many people in Pakistan, prefer a military regime in charge than a civilian government, as these have been found to be corrupt time and time again.

2. The legal framework order of all 5 newly created provinces accepting one united islamic state is the most sensible and logical thing any nation would implement, when creating provinces with limited self governing powers.
There is no sensible argument against this, 5 provinces were created, not 5 independent states!

3. Mujib ur rahman and the awarmi league were unfit to run Pakistan , as they had been for at least a decade seeking assistance from an enemy state, to achieve independence i.e. committing treason! This is well documented, not just by pakistani sources, but international sources, including the American intelligence services. Do some google searches and you will find out, so stop trying to say this was a lie, when it is a FACT! Comparing this to hitler and germany/ russia war is ridiculous, as those are two independent sovereign nations who went to war and not one sovereign nation, as pakistan was at that time, but irrational and biased people like yourself always refer to crazy hitler analogies.
By the way, stalin did go on and invade many independent and sovereign nations, so who knows if stalin did or did not have plans to wage war against germany or not!

You just have to see what has happened in catalonia to its treasonous politicians(sent to jail) for trying to unilaterally declare independence.

4. Your comprehension skills leave alot to be desired, at no point did i say parliamentary seats should be based on the number of political parties in the province, i was just highlighting the number of popular political parties per region and that it was obvious to anyone with any political acumen that the awarmi league would be virtually unchallenged in its 160 seats and win all of them, whereas, the PPP party would be challenged in the western provinces, due to there being several popular political parties.
Even if the PPP was successful in winning all its seats, it could only amass 140 seats, compared to the awarmi leagues 160.
Thats why yahya advisers advised against allocating seats according to province poulation and to allocate seats according to an equal share per province. As you are ignorant, let me advise you that both systems are used and accepted in the democratic world, America uses the second system and its called the 'College electoral system'! Thats why many american presidents become president by winning the college elecoral vote, but have actually received in total less votes than their rivals(popular vote), an example would be george w. Bush!

5. There is no rule to divide to the budget according to popuation of regions or provinces, the government has to divide its resources to meet the needs of the people the best it can, especially when resource are limited, as they were for a nation only 23 years old. This is done throughout the democratic world and is not an anomaly, otherwise you get heavily populated, wealthy regions and less pooulated vastly undeveloped poor regions.
Currently, the uk are trying to rebalance the economic divide between the vastly populated london and south east and the much less populated and much poorer northern regions by investing and creating infrastructure in the north- the nortern powerhouses, obviously, there is resistance from london and the south east.
As far as using east pakistan as a economical colony, most countries have regions which are economically doing better than other regions, like london and the south east mentioned above, and any competent government would redistribute this wealth across poorer regions.
A thread on here recently showed how most of india's goverment taxes came from a handful of indian states, such as maharasta and mumbai in particular, does that mean mumbai is an indian economical colony?
These type of facts are used for poltical prpaganda.!

6. President yahya saying kill 3 million etc, i dont know if its true or not but if he did say it, whose to know if he meant it or was just using as a soundbite for the western provinces. If he did mean it, then i completely and wholly condem him .
In reality a war broke out, architectured by india and if you had any knowledge about war, you would know not just devastation occurs but many atrocities will occur, as i stated earlier, the first casualty of war is humanity.
Now you can talk about who committed the most atrocities in the war and who is more evil, for your political points scoring, but the fact is WAR IS EVIL, one atrocity is one too many.
Indians love to talk about pakitani atrocities committed in the bangladesh war, which they helped to instigate, but never mention the atrocities committed by bangladeshis on western pakistan residents in eastern pakistan at the time and the pro pakistani bihari people.
I have personal experience of this as my great uncle was slaughter by his bengladeshi workers during the war, leaving his young wife a widow and his children orphans.
So please stop degrading the memories of the victim of war for your politcal point scoring!!


In summary, no matter about your bias and hate for Pakistan, pakistan held its first free and fair elections in 1970, knowing full well that the eastern province would win the election and did not try to prevent it by changing the system, Pakistan was fully prepared to allow the traitor mujibur rahman and his traituous party to rule pakistan, until they were informed by americsn secret services, about mujib and awarmi league traituous decade long activities, conspiring with our most ardent enemy - india!
Hence, mujib and the awarmi league were disallowed from taking office and before legal preceedings were able to be performed on these traitors, they declared independence at the bequest of trouble making and vindictive india, who still to this day can not get over that fact that we pakistanis rejected your anti muslim nation and created our own wonderful and precious PAKISTAN!
PAKISTAN ZINDABAD!!!
Stick that in your pipe and smoke it!

I agree on quite a few points with you and about Mujib and his party. But how would you justify the killings of innocent people who were supposed to be your own citizens to gain power?

How do you justify Operation Search light?

I would check what you are smoking in your pipe first before passing the pipe to others
 
Our public has been victims of a mass propaganda for 72 years. You cannot really blame them for downplaying or justifying the magnitude of the greatest genocide in modern history of the subcontinent.

M. Jinnah smelled the rats and made it very clear that the military establishment will remain subservient to the civilian government. However, his untimely death in 1948 created a power vacuum.

The Muslim League was a movement and not an organized party. The military establishment was quick to fill this vacuum and they have dictated the narrative since.
 
I agree on quite a few points with you and about Mujib and his party. But how would you justify the killings of innocent people who were supposed to be your own citizens to gain power?

How do you justify Operation Search light?

I would check what you are smoking in your pipe first before passing the pipe to others

With out sounding disrespectful, alot of people on this forum seem to have problems with their comprehension skills, i dont know if it is because english is their second language or if they want to prove their point, they are misrepresenting opposing views.
Anyway, i have repeatedly said war is evil, i am opposed to war in except absolutely self defence or to stop a genocide.
People refer to operation searchlight as a genocide but conviniently leave out the genocide committed by the bangladeshi armed militia l(muthi bani ) and the indian black op forces.
So let me throw your question back at you;
how would you justify the killings of innocent people who were supposed to be your own citizens to gain power?
Because thats what the bangladeshis did, not what the pakistanis did, to gain independence!
Now heres the pipe, have a smoke while you try to comprehend that and try to unseat the indian propaganda you have been infected with.
 
Personally i think we need to come to terms with the 1971 war and its aftermath. The atrocities committed by both sides and the effects. Bangladeshis should be our brothers by blood not our enemies. We fought together and won independance together.

The best way to solve this problem and move forward is to engage Bangladesh ona full on diplomatic engagement.

Establish a truth and reconciliation commission that can review all the evidence and highlight crimes on both sides.

Establish new defence and diplomatic relationships including a non aggression pact and a defence pact too.

Increase business links and travel links. increase cultural links.

Establish a museum in Dhaka for all the victims of the war and part fund it.

Move forward..and as the PM of Pakistan I would apologise for 71. If there's one nation on this planet I would apologise to its Bangladesh.

However we must not fall into the trap of apologising for everything and engaging in a one sided discussion. We have to engage on mutual ground where both sides have to accept their mistakes and move forward

finally to the rape camps story. Pakistan should not shy away from this. Engage bangladesh and find out the truth. We have nothing to lose. Every country has been through this sort of thing. We can show ourselves to be a bigger nation by engaging with our brothers in bangladesh.

Like it or not but they are the one country in the sub continent who should always be our friends. The links are too deep and the bond is to deep even if it was temporary sundered by bhutto and yahya.

Pakistan needs this as mush as bangladesh..

Just a final note, we have to understand that the numbers are extremley unreliable..tehre were 45,000 troops in bangladesh the majority on the front lines fighting an enemy wit a 50-1 advantage..for teh PA to manage systematic rape they would have required considerable manpower to be diverted from the war..therefore I am sceptical at the numbers..
 
Personally i think we need to come to terms with the 1971 war and its aftermath. The atrocities committed by both sides and the effects. Bangladeshis should be our brothers by blood not our enemies. We fought together and won independance together.

The best way to solve this problem and move forward is to engage Bangladesh ona full on diplomatic engagement.

Establish a truth and reconciliation commission that can review all the evidence and highlight crimes on both sides.

Establish new defence and diplomatic relationships including a non aggression pact and a defence pact too.

Increase business links and travel links. increase cultural links.

Establish a museum in Dhaka for all the victims of the war and part fund it.

Move forward..and as the PM of Pakistan I would apologise for 71. If there's one nation on this planet I would apologise to its Bangladesh.

However we must not fall into the trap of apologising for everything and engaging in a one sided discussion. We have to engage on mutual ground where both sides have to accept their mistakes and move forward

finally to the rape camps story. Pakistan should not shy away from this. Engage bangladesh and find out the truth. We have nothing to lose. Every country has been through this sort of thing. We can show ourselves to be a bigger nation by engaging with our brothers in bangladesh.

Like it or not but they are the one country in the sub continent who should always be our friends. The links are too deep and the bond is to deep even if it was temporary sundered by bhutto and yahya.

Pakistan needs this as mush as bangladesh..

Just a final note, we have to understand that the numbers are extremley unreliable..tehre were 45,000 troops in bangladesh the majority on the front lines fighting an enemy wit a 50-1 advantage..for teh PA to manage systematic rape they would have required considerable manpower to be diverted from the war..therefore I am sceptical at the numbers..
No doubt atrocities were committed in the bangladesh war of independence, as in every war there are atrocities committed.
War is evil and some humans show the most evil side during war, because there is no one to stop them , as law and order falls apart.
Both sides committed atrocities, i am even willing to accept pakistani side committed more than the bangladeshi sde, but what is the point, for one side to say we are the good guys, because we only committed 50% of the atrocities you committed?
Theres no good guys in war initally they may seem like a good and bad side, but once the war gets fully underway, there is no good guys left, innocent men, women and children get killed and maimed and are refered to by the other side as collateral damage. Women and chidren get rape by men who themselves have wives and children, but dont think for a second what would the impact be on them if someone were to commit the same evil on their loved ones as they are about to commit.
Musharaff apologised to bangladesh for the war, but they have never apologised to us for what they did.
The best thing is to let bygone be bygones and work on trade and cultural exchanges, but this cant happen whilst haseena is in charge, inshAlllah after she goes, we can do this.
Allah janat naseeb kara to all the innocent victim on both sides of this terrible war, Ameen.
 
What Pak did was wrong no doubt about it yet people like Zaid Hamid continue to live in denial. In such India like every enemy country would use such a scenario to it's advantage.
 
Pakistanis who try to deny these atrocities are hypocrites. You can’t be pro Palestine or pro Kashmir and deny the atrocities that Pakistan committed. The genocide should be openly talked about in history lessons in our schools
 
Pakistanis who try to deny these atrocities are hypocrites. You can’t be pro Palestine or pro Kashmir and deny the atrocities that Pakistan committed. The genocide should be openly talked about in history lessons in our schools

Fair enough, but what do you call the people(many of whom are pakistanis) who ignore the atrocities committed by the bangladeshi side?
Theres no good guys in war, most of you are too young to understand this, you haven't lived long enough to have seen enough wars, to realise that there is no good guys in war.
I have reservations about teaching this type of stuff in schools, because you will always get a biased view and more dangerously, you are opening up old wounds. Better to concentrate on the future than dwell on the past.
 
Yeah this sheds some light on why it was fine to deny Mujib the right to rule the country... Gotta Say Pakistanis have justification for nearly everything... Just accuse Mujib of being an Indian agent and justify disrespecting the mandate of the people of East Pakistan. And when the genocide of Bengalis is mentioned, just counter it by fabricating an even Bigger Genocide of Poor Biharis by Mukti Bahini. Offcourse, the Pakistan State and its Army are angels while the Bengalis and their leader was a traitor.
Neither side were angels and both sides committed atrocities. You can argue, if you like, who committed the most attrocities, but to me, one attrocity, is one to many.

I never accused mujib of being an indian agent, but asking for indian assistance to achieve bangladeshi independence, which he and his party had been doing for at least a decade before the war broke out. This is a fact and not propaganda and if you do some research, using independent sources(i.e. not pakistani or indian sources) you will see that this is an established fact.

What is a real shame is people like you using a tragic event of a war, were many innocent souls were lost on both sides, to gain some cheap political points!
 
1971 is history now like 1947. As I often say East Pakistan with India in the middle was eventually gonna go a separate way. Those responsible for 1971 have mostly passed away by now which should be the end of this chapter. No need to keep apologising about it every year by a generation who wasn't even living then. Bangladeshis need to get over it as well.
 
Pakistanis who try to deny these atrocities are hypocrites. You can’t be pro Palestine or pro Kashmir and deny the atrocities that Pakistan committed. The genocide should be openly talked about in history lessons in our schools

Well said in plain and simple English. I think those who think that way have the same mentality as Israelis who always bring in the Hamas issue while brushing off the main elephant in the room.
 
You seem very angry, i am just telling what happened.
Let me respond to some of your points:

1. Now i have very little respect for president yahya, because i think he was politically inept, but you keep calling him a dictator, which technically he was, but he was allowing the first free democratic electons in pakistan history. Give him some credit.
Furthermore, Pakistan had only been a nation for 23 years at this point, 23 turbulent years, with a much larger nation- india, next to it, trying its best at all times to destable it.

There is no justification for genocide. You may be the General of a country that is only 23 years old, but that is no excuse for starting a mass slaughter of civilians.

I won't say I was angry, but I was reacting to your apologia for mass murdering war criminals.

Thats why yahya advisers <b>advised against allocating seats according to province poulation and to allocate seats according to an equal share per province.</b> As you are ignorant, let me advise you that both systems are used and accepted in the democratic world, <b>America uses the second system and its called the 'College electoral system'!</b> Thats why many american presidents become president by winning the college elecoral vote, but have actually received in total less votes than their rivals(popular vote), an example would be george w. Bush!

If you are going to post to a forum for the public to read, you might as well check your facts before you do so. The US Electoral College for the Presidential elections does not have "an equal share per province". The number of electoral college votes is based on a state's population. For example, California has 54 electoral votes while Vermont has only 3.

The divergence between the popular vote and the electoral college result is due to almost all states awarding all their EVs to the winner of the state. Maine is one state which does not, and if all states followed Maine's example the popular vote and the EV winners would almost always match.

If you are going to give an example of elected representatives not proportional to population, think instead of the US Senate. The senate is however only one part of the elected representatives, along with the House and the President.

There is no rule to divide to the budget according to popuation of regions or provinces, the government has to divide its resources to meet the needs of the people the best it can, especially when resource are limited, as they were for a nation only 23 years old. This is done throughout the democratic world and is not an anomaly, otherwise you get heavily populated, wealthy regions and less pooulated vastly undeveloped poor regions.

The wealthier part of Pakistan, which also dominated the military, was getting more resources compared to the poorer part. You can't blame Mujib for working to secede under these circumstances.

In summary, no matter about your bias and hate for Pakistan, pakistan held its first free and fair elections in 1970, knowing full well that the eastern province would win the election and did not try to prevent it by changing the system, Pakistan was fully prepared to allow the traitor mujibur rahman and his traituous party to rule pakistan, <b>until they were informed by americsn secret services, about mujib and awarmi league traituous decade long activities,</b> conspiring with our most ardent enemy - india!

Of all the ridiculous apologia for genocide, this one takes the cake.

Hence, mujib and the awarmi league were disallowed from taking office and before legal preceedings were able to be performed on these traitors, they declared independence at the bequest of trouble making and vindictive india, who still to this day can not get over that fact that we pakistanis rejected your anti muslim nation and created our own wonderful and precious PAKISTAN!
PAKISTAN ZINDABAD!!!
Stick that in your pipe and smoke it!

Both countries have serious problems, but overall India is doing much better so one can't make a case that Indians have suffered due to the Partition. No more replies, be well.

Our public has been victims of a mass propaganda for 72 years. You cannot really blame them for downplaying or justifying the magnitude of the greatest genocide in modern history of the subcontinent.

You are right, but apologia for genocide by anyone (however brainwashed) is still shocking.
 
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There is no justification for genocide. You may be the General of a country that is only 23 years old, but that is no excuse for starting a mass slaughter of civilians.

I won't say I was angry, but I was reacting to your apologia for mass murdering war criminals.



If you are going to post to a forum for the public to read, you might as well check your facts before you do so. The US Electoral College for the Presidential elections does not have "an equal share per province". The number of electoral college votes is based on a state's population. For example, California has 54 electoral votes while Vermont has only 3.

The divergence between the popular vote and the electoral college result is due to almost all states awarding all their EVs to the winner of the state. Maine is one state which does not, and if all states followed Maine's example the popular vote and the EV winners would almost always match.

If you are going to give an example of elected representatives not proportional to population, think instead of the US Senate. The senate is however only one part of the elected representatives, along with the House and the President.



The wealthier part of Pakistan, which also dominated the military, was getting more resources compared to the poorer part. You can't blame Mujib for working to secede under these circumstances.



Of all the ridiculous apologia for genocide, this one takes the cake.



Both countries have serious problems, but overall India is doing much better so one can't make a case that Indians have suffered due to the Partition. No more replies, be well.



You are right, but apologia for genocide by anyone (however brainwashed) is still shocking.
You keep saying i am apologist for warand i keep telling you i am against war!

You keep calling out pakistani atrocities, but have failed to once mention bangladeshi atrocities, in which my great uncle was slaughtered, so i could throw the accussation of being an apologist at you!

I was giving an exam
 
You keep saying i am apologist for warand i keep telling you i am against war!

You keep calling out pakistani atrocities, but have failed to once mention bangladeshi atrocities, in which my great uncle was slaughtered, so i could throw the accussation of being an apologist at you!

I was giving an exam

Why are you bothering to argue with Indian nationalists and their cheerleaders? They are not interested in hearing the other side of the story.

East Pakistanis were by all accounts deprived of taking leadership of the whole country, and while atrocities went both ways, Pakistan army was probably more at fault. I think if there was any chance to show contrition without laying themselves open to ruinous compensation claims, then Pakistan govt might have been more forthcoming. Also BD govt would also have to agree to shed light on their own atrocities, not to mention complicity with Indian military by inviting the enemy* to fight on their behalf.

I use the term enemy as it is often used by Indian members on this site for justification of boycotting Pakistan in every sphere as an implacable enemy.
 
You keep saying i am apologist for war and i keep telling you i am against war!

You keep calling out pakistani atrocities, but have failed to once mention bangladeshi atrocities, in which my great uncle was slaughtered, so i could throw the accussation of being an apologist at you!

I was giving an exam
I was giving an example were you can use an alternative method to represent parliamentary seats in a region or province, i didn't say that was the exact same system that yahya was advised to adopt, but refused.

Basically, you have an agenda to malign pakistan and you are simply point scoring on dead peoples graves.
Yes pakistan did make many bad decisions and did bad things in the war, but the bangladeshis were not free of committing evil acts during that war either, something which you keep ignoring

The fact is if bangladesh wanted its independence, they should have been open and made it one of their political objectives from the start, instead of planning for over a decade with the enemy- india on obtaining independence.

Lastly, you give no accountability for india's actions in covertly aiding bangladesh for over a decade to achieve independence, knowing full well this would lead to violence and bloodshed. Thats because india had no real interest in bangladeshis welfare, they just wanted to destabilise Pakistan, and thats what india has been doing since 1947 til today.
Funny, a thread on here today is about india crying because it accuses pakistan of trying to help the sikhs of indian punjab gain independence, but india had no problem doing much worse for bangladesh.

If you want to condem pakistan, fair enough, but dont be a hypocrite and not condem both bangladesh and india for the part they played in the terrible war!
 
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/nov/05/bangladesh-1970s-camp-survivors-speak-out

Wonderful to see the foreign media highlighting our harrowing past. We are guilty of committing arguably the worst genocide in the modern history of the subcontinent, and no amount of crocodile tears over J&K can remove the stains of a very revolting chapter in our dark history.

How reliable are these resources ?

Where have these accounts come from ?

Who has verified them ?

I ask because many, including many in Bangladesh deny any such thing even took place. In fact the international community labelled the trials the took place under the watchful eye of Bibi as a sham.

It is difficult to consolidate the two dont you think ?
 
Why are you bothering to argue with Indian nationalists and their cheerleaders? They are not interested in hearing the other side of the story.

East Pakistanis were by all accounts deprived of taking leadership of the whole country, and while atrocities went both ways, Pakistan army was probably more at fault. I think if there was any chance to show contrition without laying themselves open to ruinous compensation claims, then Pakistan govt might have been more forthcoming. Also BD govt would also have to agree to shed light on their own atrocities, not to mention complicity with Indian military by inviting the enemy* to fight on their behalf.

I use the term enemy as it is often used by Indian members on this site for justification of boycotting Pakistan in every sphere as an implacable enemy.
You are right brother, but this thread was completely about how evil Pakistan was during the 71 war from both indian and pakistani posters, and no one was defending pakistan. Yes, like you say pakistan did commit atrocities during this war but so did the other side, but no one was highlighting that.
Anyway, like i said war is evil and the first casualty of war is humanity. Theres no good guys in war, despite what the indians claim.
I will take your advice and leave this thread now, as you cant change the views and hearts of people who hate.
 
How reliable are these resources ?

Where have these accounts come from ?

Who has verified them ?

I ask because many, including many in Bangladesh deny any such thing even took place. In fact the international community labelled the trials the took place under the watchful eye of Bibi as a sham.

It is difficult to consolidate the two dont you think ?

Correct, its just a conpiracy against the pious Fauj of Pakistan. Nothing like this ever took place, the Pakistan Fauj was actually fighting to defend the honour of their Bengali Sisters.
 
How reliable are these resources ?

I ask because many, including many in Bangladesh deny any such thing even took place. In fact the international community labelled the trials the took place under the watchful eye of Bibi as a sham.

Who are these "many" ? Source please
 
just here to provide a Bangladeshi perspective.

1. In general, Bangladeshis have moved on from 1971. You will hear politicians mention it here and there (esp Awami League) for some publicity but by and large the common folks rarely dwell on this. You will never hear any Bangladeshi, even the most nationalistic ones, to demand any sort of compensation. But a formal apology is sometimes discussed and demanded.

2. With that being said, the hatred for Pak Army and leadership of that time still persists. There are still plenty of survivors alive and we all have some family members or neighbors who was either killed/raped during the war. But that sentiment is only reserved for the Army and Yahya/Niazi.

3. There is no such resentment for any regular Pakistani. That is evident whenever Pak team visits Bangladesh and gets overwhelming support. Granted, Pak team was extremely popular in the 80s to early 2000s due to (a) BD team not being good enough (b) success of Pak team and having super stars compared to present team.


4. Bengalis always felt as the second class citizens from 1947 up until the war. The Punjabi leadership was very reluctant to allow/promote Bengalis in civic roles and the economies of the two wings were very imbalanced.

5. The idea of "Islamic Republic" seemed hypocritical, because even though as our religion suggests there was no different between an Arab and non Arab or white or black, the reality was very different. We felt we were treated like inferiors just becuase we spoke a different language, had some cultural differences, and looked a bit different. The two wings, separated by India in the middle, was never feasible. But when the union was justified based on religion, the execution and administering of that region was nowhere remotely close based on the said religion. East Bengal have been Muslim for 800-900 years with early Arab explores and formally being in Delhi Sultanate in 1204. So being constantly labeled as Hindu agents due to our close proximity to India was not taken graciously.

6. Granted, war is evil. The treatment of Biharis is not something we are proud of. But after decades, they have been integrating back into the mainstream society. There were many Pakistanis who stayed back and have been doing well. Visit any enclaves of Old Dhaka and you will still find many families with West Pakistani ancestry. Athar Ali Khan one such example.

7. But many many more Bengalis suffered and were killed/raped in comparison to Biharis. There were mass graves all over the country. One atrocity is never a justification for another. Otherwise we will be in constant justification mode. One have to note that the entire infrastructure of East Pakistan was destroyed. Finally, the intellectuals of the East Pakistan was systemically killed just two days before the surrender. On 14th Dec, almost a thousand university professors, scientists, artists, thinkers -- were killed. Just to make sure that the new country can't rely on these intellectuals and stand on its own feet.

--

Obviously with 180 million Bangladeshis, you will find multitudes of opinion of that veers to one side or another. But neither do we want any ill towards any Pakistani neither do we dwell on it too much. History is not to be forgotten but should act as a guide for the future.
 
just here to provide a Bangladeshi perspective.

1. In general, Bangladeshis have moved on from 1971. You will hear politicians mention it here and there (esp Awami League) for some publicity but by and large the common folks rarely dwell on this. You will never hear any Bangladeshi, even the most nationalistic ones, to demand any sort of compensation. But a formal apology is sometimes discussed and demanded.

2. With that being said, the hatred for Pak Army and leadership of that time still persists. There are still plenty of survivors alive and we all have some family members or neighbors who was either killed/raped during the war. But that sentiment is only reserved for the Army and Yahya/Niazi.

3. There is no such resentment for any regular Pakistani. That is evident whenever Pak team visits Bangladesh and gets overwhelming support. Granted, Pak team was extremely popular in the 80s to early 2000s due to (a) BD team not being good enough (b) success of Pak team and having super stars compared to present team.


4. Bengalis always felt as the second class citizens from 1947 up until the war. The Punjabi leadership was very reluctant to allow/promote Bengalis in civic roles and the economies of the two wings were very imbalanced.

5. The idea of "Islamic Republic" seemed hypocritical, because even though as our religion suggests there was no different between an Arab and non Arab or white or black, the reality was very different. We felt we were treated like inferiors just becuase we spoke a different language, had some cultural differences, and looked a bit different. The two wings, separated by India in the middle, was never feasible. But when the union was justified based on religion, the execution and administering of that region was nowhere remotely close based on the said religion. East Bengal have been Muslim for 800-900 years with early Arab explores and formally being in Delhi Sultanate in 1204. So being constantly labeled as Hindu agents due to our close proximity to India was not taken graciously.

6. Granted, war is evil. The treatment of Biharis is not something we are proud of. But after decades, they have been integrating back into the mainstream society. There were many Pakistanis who stayed back and have been doing well. Visit any enclaves of Old Dhaka and you will still find many families with West Pakistani ancestry. Athar Ali Khan one such example.

7. But many many more Bengalis suffered and were killed/raped in comparison to Biharis. There were mass graves all over the country. One atrocity is never a justification for another. Otherwise we will be in constant justification mode. One have to note that the entire infrastructure of East Pakistan was destroyed. Finally, the intellectuals of the East Pakistan was systemically killed just two days before the surrender. On 14th Dec, almost a thousand university professors, scientists, artists, thinkers -- were killed. Just to make sure that the new country can't rely on these intellectuals and stand on its own feet.

--

Obviously with 180 million Bangladeshis, you will find multitudes of opinion of that veers to one side or another. But neither do we want any ill towards any Pakistani neither do we dwell on it too much. History is not to be forgotten but should act as a guide for the future.

Great summary! At it's core there seems to be some level of twisted racial superiority by Pakistan towards Bangladesh back in the day and this seemed to have prevented them from giving equal status to Bangladesh.

Question to both Pakistanis and Indians here - Does this sense of racial superiority exist to this day in your countries?

Do people in Kashmir,Punjab, Pathan areas of Pakistan look down upon Sindh/Balochistan or India/Bangladesh/Sri Lanka people because they don't look as caucasian as y'all do?

How about Indians in Kashmir/Punjab areas of India? Do y'all look down upon your own countrymen with a level of racial superiority as well to this day?
 
How about Indians in Kashmir/Punjab areas of India? Do y'all look down upon your own countrymen with a level of racial superiority as well to this day?

I personally know a couple of Kashmiri Hindus, and a whole bunch of Punjabis. About 30 years ago, a few North Indians would look down on South Indians as dark-skinned "Madrasis" and a few South Indians would look down on North Indians as uncivilized. However most did not have such prejudice.

India keeps integrating, and over the last 30 years the regional prejudices has reduced significantly. We all root for the same cricket team :)
 
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I personally know a couple of Kashmiri Hindus, and a whole bunch of Punjabis. About 30 years ago, a few North Indians would look down on South Indians as dark-skinned "Madrasis" and a few South Indians would look down on North Indians as uncivilized. However most did not have such prejudice.

India keeps integrating, and over the last 30 years the regional prejudices has reduced significantly. We all root for the same cricket team :)

That is good to hear ... is it the reality for y'all though? How does one explain the proliferation of skin bleaching cosmetics in India, all of Bollywood only being an unrealistic whiter version of the average Indian? Parts of India with relatively lighter people do not take pride in their lighter skin even though there is a general rooted consensus that whiter skin is more beautiful? Seems to go against the natural grain of human psyche, no?

My guess is that this sense of racial superiority is even more pronounced in Pakistan (they seemed to have committed a genocide just 48+ years ago fueled by perceived racial superiority).
 
That is good to hear ... is it the reality for y'all though? How does one explain the proliferation of skin bleaching cosmetics in India, all of Bollywood only being an unrealistic whiter version of the average Indian? Parts of India with relatively lighter people do not take pride in their lighter skin even though there is a general rooted consensus that whiter skin is more beautiful? Seems to go against the natural grain of human psyche, no?

My guess is that this sense of racial superiority is even more pronounced in Pakistan (they seemed to have committed a genocide just 48+ years ago fueled by perceived racial superiority).

While it is true that North Indians are more lighter skinned in general, most North Indians vary in complexion from brown to darker brown. If you look at the Indian cricket team, there isn't a whole lot of difference between the Southern Indians like Ashwin and Rohit and North Indians like Kohli and Dhawan.

Lighter skin may be more attractive to most, but if the man or the woman is dumb then that would be the deciding factor. Personality is ten times more important than looks when it comes to attractiveness, especially long term.

Wanting to lighten their skin (mostly done by young girls) does not necessarily translate to prejudice against the South Indians (many of whom are fair skinned). I think of it as similar to the US where many women want to dye their hair blonde, but I won't say there exists any marked prejudice against brunettes (who are the majority of the white population).
 
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Who are these "many" ? Source please

The Jamat-E-Islami part of Bangladesh is just one example and it was a legitimate political party with a large following for many years before members were killed in the farcical "trials" which I mentioned.

Since you took it upon yourself to answer a question directed at Mamoo, would you like to actually answer the question now?
 
The Jamat-E-Islami part of Bangladesh is just one example and it was a legitimate political party with a large following for many years before members were killed in the farcical "trials" which I mentioned.

Since you took it upon yourself to answer a question directed at Mamoo, would you like to actually answer the question now?

Alot of those Jamat Islamis if I am not mistaken helped kill innocent people. There are quite a few non Bengali accounts of horrific tortures by the BBC and the US Ambassador of the time.

Like I said, Israeli mentality
 
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