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"Wearing Hijab Is Indiscipline": Karnataka Minister On Students' Protest

LaLoco said:
Nonsense?

-Hypocrisy in this context - Sikh men are allow to wear a turban but Muslim female aren't allow to wear Hijab. - text book hypocrisy.

-Secularism in this context - You and your fellow citizen of Hindu Rashtra kept on giving example of France. France stand on religious symbols and attire - " The French law on secularity and conspicuous religious symbols in schools bans wearing conspicuous religious symbols in French public (e.g., government-operated) primary and secondary schools.

The law does not mention any particular religious symbol, and thus bans Christian (veil, signs), Muslim (veil, signs), Sikh (turban, signs), Jewish and other religious signs.

DADA of Hindu Rashtra is yet to give an example of the US where religious attire are banned from a government designated establishment - we are still waiting my dude.

So, is India a secular country or Hindu Rashtra that can not afford or will not marginalize Sikh of India but out of pure hate will make every and any effort to marginalize Muslims of India, female, in this case.

India is a democracy, where vast majority support such ban on Muslims but not on Sikh but democracy does not mean Secularism, two different concept.

So where have I talked nonsense about India, all my comments regarding India is within the context whereas yours, comparing with Pakistan is not, which is probably the most played out nonsense non correlating counter of India not being a Hindu Rashtra - OWN the Rashtra :)
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Indians always bring Pakistan into it instead of addressing the main issue that’s being discussed… it boggles my mind. Seldom you will hardly find Pakistani posters defending a bigot or discriminatory law that’s in Pakistan but Indians will do all kinds of mental gymnastics and what aboutism to deflect the issue as opposed to just admiring there is a issue.
 
Bilal_103 said:
Indians always bring Pakistan into it instead of addressing the main issue that’s being discussed… it boggles my mind. Seldom you will hardly find Pakistani posters defending a bigot or discriminatory law that’s in Pakistan but Indians will do all kinds of mental gymnastics and what aboutism to deflect the issue as opposed to just admiring there is a issue.
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Not all but THEY are the issue - and that's the issue.
If these Sanghies didn't exist, they wouldn't have BJP govt in India to begin with.
 
Bilal_103 said:
Indians always bring Pakistan into it instead of addressing the main issue that’s being discussed… it boggles my mind. Seldom you will hardly find Pakistani posters defending a bigot or discriminatory law that’s in Pakistan but Indians will do all kinds of mental gymnastics and what aboutism to deflect the issue as opposed to just admiring there is a issue.
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Really? Then why do these discriminatory laws continue to exist in Pak?
 
LaLoco said:
Nonsense?

-Hypocrisy in this context - Sikh men are allow to wear a turban but Muslim female aren't allow to wear Hijab. - text book hypocrisy.

-Secularism in this context - You and your fellow citizen of Hindu Rashtra kept on giving example of France. France stand on religious symbols and attire - " The French law on secularity and conspicuous religious symbols in schools bans wearing conspicuous religious symbols in French public (e.g., government-operated) primary and secondary schools.

The law does not mention any particular religious symbol, and thus bans Christian (veil, signs), Muslim (veil, signs), Sikh (turban, signs), Jewish and other religious signs.

DADA of Hindu Rashtra is yet to give an example of the US where religious attire are banned from a government designated establishment - we are still waiting my dude.

So, is India a secular country or Hindu Rashtra that can not afford or will not marginalize Sikh of India but out of pure hate will make every and any effort to marginalize Muslims of India, female, in this case.

India is a democracy, where vast majority support such ban on Muslims but not on Sikh but democracy does not mean Secularism, two different concept.

So where have I talked nonsense about India, all my comments regarding India is within the context whereas yours, comparing with Pakistan is not, which is probably the most played out nonsense non correlating counter of India not being a Hindu Rashtra - OWN the Rashtra :)
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Do you know which community in India is allowed to follow their own personal law? I don't agree with it - but it is the law so for now it is legal. I guess that shows hatred towards Muslims as well?

Stop talking nonsense about a country you neither know nor understand.
 
cricketjoshila said:
What about muslim personal laws being beyond the courts? What and who do they elevate?
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Muslims are not taking anything away from me. However, hindus are depriving me of my favorite dish - cow beef manchurian with romalli rotti. With these slaughter laws, you are forcing your religion down my throat and robbing me of my diet.
 
RexRex said:
Muslims are not taking anything away from me. However, hindus are depriving me of my favorite dish - cow beef manchurian with romalli rotti. With these slaughter laws, you are forcing your religion down my throat and robbing me of my diet.
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Why are the Hindus in the UK depriving you of your fav curry?
 
Bilal_103 said:
Pakistan is a work in progress we all admit it, unlike the chest thumpers across the border. Go focus on bigger issues instead of banning the hijab…
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Good to know that. Perhaps you should follow your own advice instead of worrying about something not happening in your country.
 
Anyway it's poor decision made by court... First thing I learned about india in class is it's unity in diversity.. now they want to destroy that precious thing.. sadly these courts can't see that..
 
Gharib Aadmi said:
So what. That's one Muslim women's opinion. Plenty of Muslim women disagree with her. And the Hindu lawyers mentioned were representing other Muslim women.
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Those women can disagree within the constitutional freedom. But since a verdict is given, it will be implemented.
 
Itachi said:
Those women can disagree within the constitutional freedom. But since a verdict is given, it will be implemented.
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It can be given and implemented but we can still recognise it is a verdict which is probably driven by religious bias against Muslims by courts which are presumably predominantly Hindu biased.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
It can be given and implemented but we can still recognise it is a verdict which is probably driven by religious bias against Muslims by courts which are presumably predominantly Hindu biased.
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You can see whatever you like. All human are driven their biased agendas. That includes you, me and everyone.
 
Itachi said:
You can see whatever you like. All human are driven their biased agendas. That includes you, me and everyone.
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Yes and we are recognising it. Problem only arises when double standards are shown, one standard for Sikhs and a different one for Muslims.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
Yes and we are recognising it. Problem only arises when double standards are shown, one standard for Sikhs and a different one for Muslims.
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That's where amendments come in case of any democratic country if one feels judgement is unfair. One can appeal against the verdict and that falls under constituition.
 
Itachi said:
That's where amendments come in case of any democratic country if one feels judgement is unfair. One can appeal against the verdict and that falls under constituition.
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Or just shelve the clothing restrictions in the first place, once it has been proven misguided by the successful Sikh appeal. It is already dead in the water as a principle once you exempt certain religions from it.
 
LongtimeLurk3r said:
Do you know which community in India is allowed to follow their own personal law? I don't agree with it - but it is the law so for now it is legal. I guess that shows hatred towards Muslims as well?

Stop talking nonsense about a country you neither know nor understand.
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Lol, this is the first on this thread opposing Hijab while supporting Turban.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
Or just shelve the clothing restrictions in the first place, once it has been proven misguided by the successful Sikh appeal. It is already dead in the water as a principle once you exempt certain religions from it.
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First of all understand the judgement, it says that a institution can prescribe a uniform they want as its a reasonable restriction under article 25A.

It further states that wearing of hijab isn't a compulsory practice as Quran prescibes for wearing modest clothes. They relied on the translation of Quran by Abdullah Yusuf Ali. They gave detailed reasons for that.

This judgement leaves it to the schools to decide whether to allow or not allow hijab.
 
cricketjoshila said:
First of all understand the judgement, it says that a institution can prescribe a uniform they want as its a reasonable restriction under article 25A.

It further states that wearing of hijab isn't a compulsory practice as Quran prescibes for wearing modest clothes. They relied on the translation of Quran by Abdullah Yusuf Ali. They gave detailed reasons for that.

This judgement leaves it to the schools to decide whether to allow or not allow hijab.
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All these folks understand that. They will still reply stating that India is bigoted just for the sake of it. The point is not to debate but to put down India based on prejudice.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
Or just shelve the clothing restrictions in the first place, once it has been proven misguided by the successful Sikh appeal. It is already dead in the water as a principle once you exempt certain religions from it.
Click to expand...

If Muslim scholars stated that hijab is not essential, then it's not surprising that judiciary will take that into account.

I think it should be Muslim scholars who needs to come together and give one explanation for verses on different aspects. Otherwise these kind of issues will persist.
 
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Even here in PP, people can't point out whether music is halal or haram. Some states that their scholars have said that it is haram but some other has stated that their scholars did allow it as halal.

If tomorrow, music is banned, some will cherish as victory for Islam while some others will say that Islam has no restrictions towards music and it's the right wing which has pushed their agendas.

Whom to believe?
 
Itachi said:
If Muslim scholars stated that hijab is not essential, then it's not surprising that judiciary will take that into account.

I think it should be Muslim scholars who needs to come together and give one explanation for verses on different aspects. Otherwise these kind of issues will persist.
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Muslim scholars didn't say hijab was either mandatory or not essential, this is left to the individual to decide. What they certainly don't do is ban wearing it altogether, and this is where the interference from school jurisdictions is seen as an imposition from a hostile authority.

Muslims are not going to accept clear and blatant attempt to target their females while Sikhs are given preferential treatment. Save your secularism for your own Hindu population by banning them from eating meat on school premises.
 
LongtimeLurk3r said:
All these folks understand that. They will still reply stating that India is bigoted just for the sake of it. The point is not to debate but to put down India based on prejudice.
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LOL, this is cute.


Correct, if you still haven't seen the prejudice and bigotry the law present after 15 pages of Muslims explaining it then the obvious conclusion would be for anyone and everyone who isn't bigot and, promote and support bigoted laws would call it as they see it.

It is debated, go through this thread :)
 
Itachi said:
If Muslim scholars stated that hijab is not essential, then it's not surprising that judiciary will take that into account.

I think it should be Muslim scholars who needs to come together and give one explanation for verses on different aspects. Otherwise these kind of issues will persist.
Click to expand...


Only in a country like India, other countries either ban all the religious symbol and attire or allow all, no hypocrisy and no bigotry unless it is India :)
 
LaLoco said:
Only in a country like India, other countries either ban all the religious symbol and attire or allow all, no hypocrisy and no bigotry unless it is India :)
Click to expand...

It really is as simple as that.

You can't be France if you are still a deeply religious country.
 
LaLoco said:
LOL, this is cute.


Correct, if you still haven't seen the prejudice and bigotry the law present after 15 pages of Muslims explaining it then the obvious conclusion would be for anyone and everyone who isn't bigot and, promote and support bigoted laws would call it as they see it.

It is debated, go through this thread :)
Click to expand...

If you still don't see that this was done for uniformity but still keep harping on the same thing - can't help but lead to that conclusion. As I;ve mentioned earlier - calling India bigoted hailing from a country that is actually bigoted is laughable. Concept of uniformity is unknown to you folks anyways. Anyways you guys will continue to sing the same tune. Go for it. Your whinging and opinions matter a whit to Indians :)
 
LongtimeLurk3r said:
If you still don't see that this was done for uniformity but still keep harping on the same thing - can't help but lead to that conclusion. As I;ve mentioned earlier - calling India bigoted hailing from a country that is actually bigoted is laughable. Concept of uniformity is unknown to you folks anyways. Anyways you guys will continue to sing the same tune. Go for it. Your whinging and opinions matter a whit to Indians :)
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Another comment in support for bigotry and hypocrisy.

Uniformity unless the person is Sikh or Hindu.

Of course my opinion has no meaning to Hindu Rashtra as I am not an Indian citizen, it was pretty obvious :)

It is you all who are harping the same thing - most here are just highlighting the hypocrisy and bigotry of India, which most of you have failed to counter it and instead repeated the same used and abused points, "It do not matter what you think and obsession with Pakistan by comparing it with Pakistan" are couple of examples :)

But the most unique one, Hindu Rashtra get to decide on how a Muslim female should dress, lol.
 
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LaLoco said:
Another comment in support for bigotry and hypocrisy.

Uniformity unless the person is Sikh or Hindu.

Of course my opinion has no meaning to Hindu Rashtra as I am not an Indian citizen, it was pretty obvious :)

It is you all who are harping the same thing - most here are just highlighting the hypocrisy and bigotry of India, which most of you have failed to counter it and instead repeated the same used and abused points, "It do not matter what you think and obsession with Pakistan by comparing it with Pakistan" are couple of examples :)

But the most unique one, Hindu Rashtra get to decide on how a Muslim female should dress, lol.
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Muslim female can dress any which way she wants, but she has to obey the dress code of the institution if she is visiting that place.
 
cricketjoshila said:
Muslim female can dress any which way she wants, but she has to obey the dress code of the institution if she is visiting that place.
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It's a public school, not a private social club or a place of worship.

Neither does it have a dress code, we have already seen it doesn't apply to non-Muslim pupils.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
Muslim scholars didn't say hijab was either mandatory or not essential, this is left to the individual to decide.
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That's not how it goes.

Individuals shouldn't decide what is essential or not essential for Islam since individuals are not perfect and do not posses the knowledge to ascertain what is essential or not. That's where the scholars will always come in.

If Quran was written in a boolean way, then it would have been different but it's rather cryptic so most will require scholar.

If scholars, who have studied Quran giving their who life time has stated that hijab isn't essential with pointing reference to it, then jurisdiction will consider.

What I see here is, many Muslims here accept the logic of scholar at their own convenience. If it suits their agenda, then use it or other wise discard them.

You are not a scholar so I am not sure you have the authenticity along with authority to decipher the verses. So I'll trust the scholars more on this.
 
LaLoco said:
Only in a country like India, other countries either ban all the religious symbol and attire or allow all, no hypocrisy and no bigotry unless it is India :)
Click to expand...

I don't know what point you are trying to make here other than writing some snide remarks which are nothing more than just noise in PP.

I request you to either write arguments in a way that is helpful to the discussion or don't quote me at all. It's a polite request.

Thank you.
 
LongtimeLurk3r said:
All these folks understand that. They will still reply stating that India is bigoted just for the sake of it. The point is not to debate but to put down India based on prejudice.
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I don't think India is bigoted but it is clear that the ruling party wants to make it a hindu rashtra. Do you want India to be secular or a theocracy like Pakistan ?
 
Itachi said:
I don't know what point you are trying to make here other than writing some snide remarks which are nothing more than just noise in PP.

I request you to either write arguments in a way that is helpful to the discussion or don't quote me at all. It's a polite request.

Thank you.
Click to expand...

My point was quite elementary for even a kindergarten kid to comprehend.

Suggestion would be to stop making elementary argument difficult to fit your agenda against a particular minority while upholding different standard for other :)

I am allow to quote anyone on this forum, you have a choice not to reply, try practicing it.

Thank you!
 
RexRex said:
I don't think India is bigoted but it is clear that the ruling party wants to make it a hindu rashtra. Do you want India to be secular or a theocracy like Pakistan ?
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India can’t be truly secular until it has UCC till then all these parties can keep playing politics and align masses with their narratives.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
It's a public school, not a private social club or a place of worship.

Neither does it have a dress code, we have already seen it doesn't apply to non-Muslim pupils.
Click to expand...

It applies to Hindus too with respect to tilak on their forehead.
Doesn’t mean it’s correct but saying.
 
RexRex said:
I don't think India is bigoted but it is clear that the ruling party wants to make it a hindu rashtra. Do you want India to be secular or a theocracy like Pakistan ?
Click to expand...

You still haven't replied where you live since you seem to have trouble finding your fav food.

Being secular means being equal. Not throwing a fit and asking for special privileges. I think this court ruling dies that.
 
LaLoco said:
My point was quite elementary for even a kindergarten kid to comprehend.

Suggestion would be to stop making elementary argument difficult to fit your agenda against a particular minority while upholding different standard for other :)

I am allow to quote anyone on this forum, you have a choice not to reply, try practicing it.

Thank you!
Click to expand...

When scholars from that particular community stated that something is not essential, then others have not much to say unless you are a scholar.

If you want to give objection, then first you should goto those scholars who deems hijab as non essential.

are you stating here that those scholars are spreading false Islamic guidelines?
 
LongtimeLurk3r said:
You still haven't replied where you live since you seem to have trouble finding your fav food.

Being secular means being equal. Not throwing a fit and asking for special privileges. I think this court ruling dies that.
Click to expand...

There you go distorting the meaning of secularism for your perverted agenda.

Study what secularism is so you won't get upset again when someone call you on it :)


Sikh said, Hello :)
 
LongtimeLurk3r said:
You still haven't replied where you live since you seem to have trouble finding your fav food.

Being secular means being equal. Not throwing a fit and asking for special privileges. I think this court ruling dies that.
Click to expand...

Then why is hijab banned and turban allowed? You seem to have trouble explaining this simple question without mental gymnastics.
 
LaLoco said:
There you go distorting the meaning of secularism for your perverted agenda.

Study what secularism is so you won't get upset again when someone call you on it :)


Sikh said, Hello :)
Click to expand...

Lurker guy seems to be not all there or he just pretends to selectively choose what to reply to instead of the whole thing.
 
LongtimeLurk3r said:
You still haven't replied where you live since you seem to have trouble finding your fav food.
Click to expand...

My flag makes it obvious? But I am an indian citizen.

Being secular means being equal. Not throwing a fit and asking for special privileges. I think this court ruling dies that.
Click to expand...

Forget this ruling. I was talking about the larger aim of making India a hindu rashtra, which a couple of indian posters aspire for. Is that what you want ?
 
JaDed said:
India can’t be truly secular until it has UCC till then all these parties can keep playing politics and align masses with their narratives.
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I am all for a Uniform Civil Code and will vote for it any day. Why aren't the BJP introducing it when they have monster majority in Parliament ?
 
RexRex said:
My flag makes it obvious? But I am an indian citizen.



Forget this ruling. I was talking about the larger aim of making India a hindu rashtra, which a couple of indian posters aspire for. Is that what you want ?
Click to expand...

So why didn't you answer when I asked you why Hindus were preventing you from getting your fav food?
 
Last edited:
LongtimeLurk3r said:
So why didn't you answer when I asked you why Hindus were preventing you from getting your fav food?
Click to expand...

Because I am not on this forum 24/7 ? I reply when I am online.

So, do you want India to be a hindu rashtra or not ? A couple of others on here have said yes to this question.
 
RexRex said:
I am all for a Uniform Civil Code and will vote for it any day. Why aren't the BJP introducing it when they have monster majority in Parliament ?
Click to expand...

Because they want to win in 2024 and blame Nehru till then.
 
LongtimeLurk3r said:
Have explained multiple times above.
Click to expand...

None of your ilk have been able to defend nor explain anything other than display of hypocrisy, bigotry and support of communalism.

Everyone see through your ilk hoping and supporting India to be a Hindu Rashtra.

All of you have distorted the true meaning of secularism in India.

Attempted to re-define 'Hijab' for the Muslim female.

And this one is hilarious, attempted to compare with western Secularism when it fits your ilk agenda while under the same breath stating it is India's way of secularism. Which one is it?

And the court, the Indian courts, lol, lol :)
 
RexRex said:
Because I am not on this forum 24/7 ? I reply when I am online.

So, do you want India to be a hindu rashtra or not ? A couple of others on here have said yes to this question.
Click to expand...

So then not sure why you are having issues getting your fav beef dish then.

Reg Hindu Rashtra - no I don't care for it. I would like a UCC though. Time to dismantle special privileges for certain religions. According to a lot of folks here they are victimized all the time anyway.
 
LaLoco said:
None of your ilk have been able to defend nor explain anything other than display of hypocrisy, bigotry and support of communalism.

Everyone see through your ilk hoping and supporting India to be a Hindu Rashtra.

All of you have distorted the true meaning of secularism in India.

Attempted to re-define 'Hijab' for the Muslim female.

And this one is hilarious, attempted to compare with western Secularism when it fits your ilk agenda while under the same breath stating it is India's way of secularism. Which one is it?

And the court, the Indian courts, lol, lol :)
Click to expand...

You're just too adamant to understand :). Can't wake up someone pretending to be asleep.
 
LongtimeLurk3r said:
You're just too adamant to understand :). Can't wake up someone pretending to be asleep.
Click to expand...

I live in a country where people use as epitome to define secularism and after personally experience it, it is quite difficult to understand Hindu Rasthra's way of secularism. :)
 
LaLoco said:
I live in a country where people use as epitome to define secularism and after personally experience it, it is quite difficult to understand Hindu Rasthra's way of secularism. :)
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You mean the one that says In God we trust on every single one of their currency bills? I can understand the confusion when everything is viewed from an Abrahamic religion prism. Try being more open minded 😉
 
LaLoco said:
I live in a country where people use as epitome to define secularism and after personally experience it, it is quite difficult to understand Hindu Rasthra's way of secularism. :)
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Btw I lived in the US for 13 yrs.. 9 in the South. Trust me, it is as far from the epitome of secular as you can get
 
15 pages on and so called 'educated' Indians still do not understand what Secularism means.

If this is the state of the educated Indians, spare a thought for the 800M uneducated Indians.

Ouch.
 
Technics 1210 said:
15 pages on and so called 'educated' Indians still do not understand what Secularism means.

If this is the state of the educated Indians, spare a thought for the 800M uneducated Indians.

Ouch.
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Always a blast getting lessons on Secularism from ppl hailing from islamic republics like Pakistan.
 
LongtimeLurk3r said:
Always a blast getting lessons on Secularism from ppl hailing from islamic republics like Pakistan.
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Pakistan doesn't claim to be secular.

Proving the point, you and your Hindutva ilk do understand the very definition of Secularism.

800M uneducated.

Where's the Silver Bullet?
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
It's a public school, not a private social club or a place of worship.

Neither does it have a dress code, we have already seen it doesn't apply to non-Muslim pupils.
Click to expand...

Its a private institution and not a public road and it has a uniform dress code. It depends on the institution if they allow hijab or not.
 
LaLoco said:
None of your ilk have been able to defend nor explain anything other than display of hypocrisy, bigotry and support of communalism.

Everyone see through your ilk hoping and supporting India to be a Hindu Rashtra.

All of you have distorted the true meaning of secularism in India.

Attempted to re-define 'Hijab' for the Muslim female.

And this one is hilarious, attempted to compare with western Secularism when it fits your ilk agenda while under the same breath stating it is India's way of secularism. Which one is it?

And the court, the Indian courts, lol, lol :)
Click to expand...

Let me tell you, in India Indian laws are followed and Indian courts judge. Thats not going to change whether pakistanis like it or not.

If you are so interested in secularism, why not ask your government to make pakistan secular.
 
Technics 1210 said:
Pakistan doesn't claim to be secular.

Proving the point, you and your Hindutva ilk do understand the very definition of Secularism.

800M uneducated.

Where's the Silver Bullet?
Click to expand...

Perhaps you ought to be secular first before you ask others to be so. If you aren't in the first place perhaps you have no place to determine what that term means to others?
 
For our posters from pakistan, secularism seems to mean a system where special privileges are to be given to islamic law.

That's appeasement.
 
Look all lets not pretend India is Secular. (For those who understand the meaning).

Most of the Hindutva apologists reside outside of India. If their Mahabharat of a desh was so good, then they would not be fleeing their 'incredible' India in their droves.

The caste system of Hinduism is an intrinsic insult to Secular India itself.

Laughter is always the best medicine.

:)
 
LongtimeLurk3r said:
Perhaps you ought to be secular first before you ask others to be so. If you aren't in the first place perhaps you have no place to determine what that term means to others?
Click to expand...

Like I said, your ilk have no idea what Secularism means. Since you follow the foot steps of your past masters, the British, go look up the meaning in an Oxford dictionary.

:)
 
RexRex said:
I am all for a Uniform Civil Code and will vote for it any day. Why aren't the BJP introducing it when they have monster majority in Parliament ?
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They still dont have a two third majority in the rajya sabha to pass a constitutional amendment to this regard.

Guess who are opposing the UCC?
 
Technics 1210 said:
Look all lets not pretend India is Secular. (For those who understand the meaning).

Most of the Hindutva apologists reside outside of India. If their Mahabharat of a desh was so good, then they would not be fleeing their 'incredible' India in their droves.

The caste system of Hinduism is an intrinsic insult to Secular India itself.

Laughter is always the best medicine.

:)
Click to expand...

I agree.. Reading your drivel always gives me a good laugh. Thank you so much for comedy pieces

Especially your attempts to define secularism being an islamist
 
LongtimeLurk3r said:
I agree.. Reading your drivel always gives me a good laugh. Thank you so much for comedy pieces

Especially your attempts to define secularism being an islamist
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So you agree India is not secular. There you go. So easy to destroy your fickle and fake education.

How easy it is to flummox a long time lurker from 2019! L to the O to the L.

:)
 
cricketjoshila said:
They still dont have a two third majority in the rajya sabha to pass a constitutional amendment to this regard.

Guess who are opposing the UCC?
Click to expand...
It will incredibly difficult to create legislation around something so complex.

The farm laws themselves took 16 yrs to frame in the shape they were passed in. We know what happened to them
 
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