Were the domestic cricket reforms and their implementation by Mani, Wasim and Ramiz a failure?

[Savak]

Lets be clear, Sethi got a very loud rowsing receoption at the PCB where all the PCB employees from bottom to top were welcoming him with flowers.

He has even been welcomed by Aqib Javed, Moin Khan, Ahmed Shehzad, Umar Akmal, Mohd Amir.

IK and his team got a good 4 years to successfully implement the regional/city cricket structure but bottomline is that they were unable to successfully find commercial partners, sponsors for the domestic sides and neither were they able to successfully revive the clubs to cater to the numerous unemployed cricketers in the country.

If Sethi does bring departments back, he needs to not repeat the same mistakes during his tenure where he merged the departments and regional sides together in one tournament creating a 24 team tournament. That diluted the standard of the tournament because all the best players played for their departments and the regional teams as a result were terribly weak therefore destroying the standard of the tournament.

I would advise the PCB to replace the regional T-20, 4 day, ODI tournaments, with a City based T-20, 5 day and ODI tournament and have around 10-12 major cities of Pakistan participating. The people of Pakistan as they have shown in the PSL have a greater identity and fan following for their cities as oppossed to their regions.

Keep the departments seperate i.e. keep the department 5 day, T-20, and ODI tournaments seperate and hold them at a seperate time period during the year and this way we will have a longer first class season and we will no longer have the problem where Pakistani T-20 players will be missing out on much needed domestic longer version experience.

 

[Rana]

3-0 loss to England (home)

1-0 Loss to Australia (home)

T20 World Cup poor show

Asia cup poor show

7 series loss to England (home)

*All in the space of a year*

 

[greatest]

No matter what domestic structure you have what really matters is that every game should be played aggressively where players have the hunger to perform with lots of competition for their places in the domestic team.

Imran's vision was based on the Sheffield Shield because they had only 6 teams which played fewer games, so the players had more hunger to perform and there was more competition in the grade/club level to get into the State team. Not everyone can walk in and play Shield cricket. All this lead to an aggressive mentality. Also, because the States played fewer games the players had time to also play for their club team and this encouraged the youngsters to spent time and learn from the State and international Australian players.

 

[Savak]

No matter what domestic structure you have what really matters is that every game should be played aggressively where players have the hunger to perform with lots of competition for their places in the domestic team.

Imran's vision was based on the Sheffield Shield because they had only 6 teams which played fewer games, so the players had more hunger to perform and there was more competition in the grade/club level to get into the State team. Not everyone can walk in and play Shield cricket. All this lead to an aggressive mentality. Also, because the States played fewer games the players had time to also play for their club team and this encouraged the youngsters to spent time and learn from the State and international Australian players.

Misbah mentioned in the Pavilion Show that he had requested the PCB to allow each regional side to have a fitness camp, skills camp where the coaches could work with the players and iron out their issues atleast 2-3 months before the start of the domestic season but the PCB refused citing costs and the fact the coaches, players of the regional sides meet up and start working just before the start of the season leaves zero time for the coaches to iron out their flaws and for the players to work on their games.

He also talked about the fact that the gym, facilities, equipment at the NHPC was old like 20 years and the PCB rarely upgrades the facilities whereas it was high time for them to just acquire brand new facilities instead.

 

[Officer Barbrady]

3-0 loss to England (home)

1-0 Loss to Australia (home)

T20 World Cup poor show

Asia cup poor show

7 series loss to England (home)

*All in the space of a year*

This discussion is about the recent domestic reform.

 

[Markhor]

Before we call the current system a failure, we must remember what it replaced.

1) Pre-2019 we had a hotchpotch of 16 departments and regions. This system was deeply unequal as the departments generally hoarded the best talent, and the regions barely FC standard. The last five QEA Trophy Finals under the hybrid system were all-departmental affairs. In the 2017-18 QEA Trophy, departments beat regions by 3:1 in head-to-head matches.

2) The pitches are currently too uniformly low and easy paced for my liking, but they were horrendous pre-2019 as grassy, damp, underprepared wickets were the norm. The average 1st innings score in the 2017/18 QEA Trophy was 233, amongst the lowest of any FC competition in the world, and 8 sub-100 totals. 13 of the 15 top wicket-takers were seamers so hardly conducive to producing quality spinners.

3) Corruption and nepotism was rife. Shakil Shaikh would ensure his son Arsal would get selected. Players would continue well past their expiry date and it was difficult to spotlight youngsters or properly gauge their ability in such a poor competition.

4) The broadcast coverage was atrocious. Not a single QEA Trophy match was broadcasted live while the white ball tournaments were on PTV's 144p telecasts.

Since 2019 and introduction of regional teams, fans could finally support their local side instead of watching banks compete against airlines, while players could represent their region.

People can debate whether 6 FC teams is enough but there's no doubt the quality of FC cricket improved immeasurably. PCB streamed one match per round of QEA Trophy in HD so the scrutiny was greater than ever, and made it difficult for teams to sideline youngsters or engage in nepotism. Entitled seniors like Salman Butt and Kamran Akmal, and their media allies were barking against these reforms because suddenly they had to fight for their places.

Several youngsters emerged including Mohammad Huraira, Abrar Ahmed, Mubasir Khan and Haider Ali, while the performances of domestic veterans like Fawad Alam, Saud Shakeel and Kamran Ghulam in a streamlined setup couldn't be ignored anymore. Coaches were finally evaluated every season instead of collecting salaries for doing nothing. The pitches have improved, but obviously more work needs doing.

Is it perfect ? No, but a damn sight better than before. Unfortunately in Pakistan, we have to show others who's boss so instead of building on your predecessor's work - you rip everything up and start over. Is anyone surprised why instability and inconsistency is a byword for our country, not just our cricket ?

 

[Officer Barbrady]

The domestic reform made a lot of sense. They should have tried to develop what was put in place and build upon it. Instead they will sadly unwind the whole thing and go back to square one.

Btw, Ramiz had nothing to do with the domestic structure/reform. He was installed after it was already in place and showed little interest in it.

 

[Rana]

This discussion is about the recent domestic reform.

This was the product.

 

[MenInG]

Before we call the current system a failure, we must remember what it replaced.

1) Pre-2019 we had a hotchpotch of 16 departments and regions. This system was deeply unequal as the departments generally hoarded the best talent, and the regions barely FC standard. The last five QEA Trophy Finals under the hybrid system were all-departmental affairs. In the 2017-18 QEA Trophy, departments beat regions by 3:1 in head-to-head matches.

2) The pitches are currently too uniformly low and easy paced for my liking, but they were horrendous pre-2019 as grassy, damp, underprepared wickets were the norm. The average 1st innings score in the 2017/18 QEA Trophy was 233, amongst the lowest of any FC competition in the world, and 8 sub-100 totals. 13 of the 15 top wicket-takers were seamers so hardly conducive to producing quality spinners.

3) Corruption and nepotism was rife. Shakil Shaikh would ensure his son Arsal would get selected. Players would continue well past their expiry date and it was difficult to spotlight youngsters or properly gauge their ability in such a poor competition.

4) The broadcast coverage was atrocious. Not a single QEA Trophy match was broadcasted live while the white ball tournaments were on PTV's 144p telecasts.

Since 2019 and introduction of regional teams, fans could finally support their local side instead of watching banks compete against airlines, while players could represent their region.

People can debate whether 6 FC teams is enough but there's no doubt the quality of FC cricket improved immeasurably. PCB streamed one match per round of QEA Trophy in HD so the scrutiny was greater than ever, and made it difficult for teams to sideline youngsters or engage in nepotism. Entitled seniors like Salman Butt and Kamran Akmal, and their media allies were barking against these reforms because suddenly they had to fight for their places.

Several youngsters emerged including Mohammad Huraira, Abrar Ahmed, Mubasir Khan and Haider Ali, while the performances of domestic veterans like Fawad Alam, Saud Shakeel and Kamran Ghulam in a streamlined setup couldn't be ignored anymore. Coaches were finally evaluated every season instead of collecting salaries for doing nothing. The pitches have improved, but obviously more work needs doing.

Is it perfect ? No, but a damn sight better than before. Unfortunately in Pakistan, we have to show others who's boss so instead of building on your predecessor's work - you rip everything up and start over. Is anyone surprised why instability and inconsistency is a byword for our country, not just our cricket ?

Brilliant as usual

Today Sethi said that departmental system will be reviewed before being restored.

 

[Officer Barbrady]

This was the product.

Well no, a new system requires years to develop and produce results, you can't write it off so quickly.

And the core of the current team is a product of the old system so you can't blame the new system for those players.

And there were good signs already - Saud and Abrar topped the domestic season and had very promising debut series. There were others that performed and should have played (Huraira and Mir Hamza) but they weren't given an opportunity unfortunately.

 

[ElRaja]

imran wanted the aussie system, but the aussie system is fed (or at least was in the 90s), by an extremely competitive non first class club cricket scene.

the PCB replicated the top layer without any of the feeder system, so you ended up with a very opaque and centralised selection process. central punjab were the worst, with Abdullah shafique having to move to balochistan to get some games, sindh were poor but improved with time. northern gave a lot of youngsters chances.

the top level idea of and implementation were not bad, but they failed to implement the city based feeder structure.

also they failed to adequately reward or penalise performance, coming last in the season meant nothing, so other than the final, all game results were completely irrelevant.

 

[Rana]

Well no, a new system requires years to develop and produce results, you can't write it off so quickly.

And the core of the current team is a product of the old system so you can't blame the new system for those players.

And there were good signs already - Saud and Abrar topped the domestic season and had very promising debut series. There were others that performed and should have played (Huraira and Mir Hamza) but they weren't given an opportunity unfortunately.

Well, yes.

This was the 4th year of the new system and the slope began for quite some time.

You can’t say…let’s set up a new system and then bring in Mohammad Irfan from the old people’s retirement home.

+Play Imam ul Haq in T20i
+Have two accumulators as your T20i openers for 2-3 years without change

A lot of us (well mainly me) were screaming at the top of our lungs that something isn’t right here! Something isn’t making sense, this is totally wrong.

The slope began I would say in the ODI series against England in 2021…and I just continued, and now it’s at a point that is potentially beyond repair

 

[Markhor]

Brilliant as usual

Today Sethi said that departmental system will be reviewed before being restored.

They'll find it won't be that easy to revive departmental cricket. Many departments were already making cutbacks pre-2019 with UBL closing down its cricket division in 2018. COVID and Pakistan's economic challenges has worsened their financial pressures.

2023 is an election year, and PTI are expected to win, so departments are unlikely to return if they think the system will be rebooted again after a few months.

 

[MenInG]

They'll find it won't be that easy to revive departmental cricket. Many departments were already making cutbacks pre-2019 with UBL closing down its cricket division in 2018. COVID and Pakistan's economic challenges has worsened their financial pressures.

2023 is an election year, and PTI are expected to win, so departments are unlikely to return if they think the system will be rebooted again after a few months.

The smart thing to do would be to compliment the current system with more teams.

Basically, Najam Sethi needs to provide free money to just about enough cricketers so that the Akmals/Butts etc shut-up on YouTube.

He has an easy solution for results

1. Results bad: System was bad and it will take time to fix things
2. Results good: Hey look I fixed it

 

[Officer Barbrady]

Well, yes.

This was the 4th year of the new system and the slope began for quite some time.

You can’t say…let’s set up a new system and then bring in Mohammad Irfan from the old people’s retirement home.

+Play Imam ul Haq in T20i
+Have two accumulators as your T20i openers for 2-3 years without change

A lot of us (well mainly me) were screaming at the top of our lungs that something isn’t right here! Something isn’t making sense, this is totally wrong.

The slope began I would say in the ODI series against England in 2021…and I just continued, and now it’s at a point that is potentially beyond repair

Your comments are not related to the domestic set up or the merits of setting it up along regional lines and whether it makes sense to undo it and start again which is really what this thread is about.

I appreciate your passion but in your quest to be heard you are going to different threads and repeating the same points regardless of whether they are relevant.

 

[KingOfPakBreakfast]

Before we call the current system a failure, we must remember what it replaced.

1) Pre-2019 we had a hotchpotch of 16 departments and regions. This system was deeply unequal as the departments generally hoarded the best talent, and the regions barely FC standard. The last five QEA Trophy Finals under the hybrid system were all-departmental affairs. In the 2017-18 QEA Trophy, departments beat regions by 3:1 in head-to-head matches.

2) The pitches are currently too uniformly low and easy paced for my liking, but they were horrendous pre-2019 as grassy, damp, underprepared wickets were the norm. The average 1st innings score in the 2017/18 QEA Trophy was 233, amongst the lowest of any FC competition in the world, and 8 sub-100 totals. 13 of the 15 top wicket-takers were seamers so hardly conducive to producing quality spinners.

3) Corruption and nepotism was rife. Shakil Shaikh would ensure his son Arsal would get selected. Players would continue well past their expiry date and it was difficult to spotlight youngsters or properly gauge their ability in such a poor competition.

4) The broadcast coverage was atrocious. Not a single QEA Trophy match was broadcasted live while the white ball tournaments were on PTV's 144p telecasts.

Since 2019 and introduction of regional teams, fans could finally support their local side instead of watching banks compete against airlines, while players could represent their region.

People can debate whether 6 FC teams is enough but there's no doubt the quality of FC cricket improved immeasurably. PCB streamed one match per round of QEA Trophy in HD so the scrutiny was greater than ever, and made it difficult for teams to sideline youngsters or engage in nepotism. Entitled seniors like Salman Butt and Kamran Akmal, and their media allies were barking against these reforms because suddenly they had to fight for their places.

Several youngsters emerged including Mohammad Huraira, Abrar Ahmed, Mubasir Khan and Haider Ali, while the performances of domestic veterans like Fawad Alam, Saud Shakeel and Kamran Ghulam in a streamlined setup couldn't be ignored anymore. Coaches were finally evaluated every season instead of collecting salaries for doing nothing. The pitches have improved, but obviously more work needs doing.

Is it perfect ? No, but a damn sight better than before. Unfortunately in Pakistan, we have to show others who's boss so instead of building on your predecessor's work - you rip everything up and start over. Is anyone surprised why instability and inconsistency is a byword for our country, not just our cricket ?

Really well articulated mate.

Also hilarious that people were expecting miracles after only 4 years. The irony is, only now are you beginning to see actual products of the 6-region system emerge.

Bad faith posters will point towards Pakistan’s red ball results and their weak white ball middle order, and how, somehow those weaknesses relate to the new system.

What they conveniently ignore is that Pakistan selection, I.e. changes in squad are primarily done with players coming through the below avenues:

1) Previous squad members getting a new go around (Faheem, Hassan Ali, Asif Ali etc)
2) PSL based selection (Khushdil, Hasnain, Dahani)
3) Selection direct from age group cricket (Haider Ali, Naseem Shah, Shaheen Shah Afridi)
4) Early selection from domestics based on talent (Mohammed Wasim, Abdullah Shafique, Usman Qadir)
5) Selection based on other franchise and county performances (Hasnain, Naseem recalls, Shan Masood and Haris Rauf)

The only true products of the new system, that we’ve seen selected to date are Mohammed Haris, Amir Jamal, Abrar Ahmed and Mohammed Ali. People will call Ali a failure, but he ran up against a juggernaut of a team on completely placid tracks.

The true products of the system are the young players that started playing age group cricket in this new system and have since started performing for the senior regional sides.

If you want to truly judge the worth of the new system, let’s see how Hurraira (two time top QEA run scorer), Mubasir (two time QEA player of the tournament), Saim Ayub, Qasim Akram, Omair Bin Yousuf, Mohammed Umar, Mehran Mumtaz, Arafat Minhas and Hassan Khan do. If there’s any merit from the new selection committee, a lot of these lads will debut for Pakistan in the next three-five years. They’re all in their early twenties or less.

Thus lads, judge the system on how these new kids do. Otherwise your arguments are only there to support your own biases.

 

[Officer Barbrady]

The smart thing to do would be to compliment the current system with more teams.

Basically, Najam Sethi needs to provide free money to just about enough cricketers so that the Akmals/Butts etc shut-up on YouTube.

He has an easy solution for results

1. Results bad: System was bad and it will take time to fix things
2. Results good: Hey look I fixed it

Yes.. build upon and improve the system.

We used to have a new domestic format every couple of years and it really hasn’t been working for a very long time. Let’s try to build upon this latest start.

 

[Savak]

I think instead of a provincial structure. They should have made the tournament city based with 10-12 major cities of Pakistan. People in Pakistan as evidenced by the PSL identify more with cities than provinces.

 

[KingOfPakBreakfast]

I think instead of a provincial structure. They should have made the tournament city based with 10-12 major cities of Pakistan. People in Pakistan as evidenced by the PSL identify more with cities than provinces.

Are we talking 10-12 city teams with the underlying 2nd teams as well?

 

[Savak]

Are we talking 10-12 city teams with the underlying 2nd teams as well?

Nope 10-12 teams and that's it.

 

[UP]

It will be a suicidal move if Sethi and co rip everything up and crawl back to the old system. The new structure introduced in 2019 will take time to mature, its been barely three years. Think to tear it in ten years if its not functioning well. What needs to be amended is to look for shortcomings and loopholes in the overall setup. Amending and improving should be the priority instead of tearing down the building. Perhaps they can ponder to increase the teams from six to eight and have second elevens running parallel. People shouldn't take seriously whats Akmals have to say on YouTube. They are known to spread hate and spew garbage all over.

Raja implemented and landed on a contract with Beaconhouse to revive school cricket. Need to further build on it. Beaconhouse kids belong to well off families and the timidness and coward approach that we have become accustomed to can perhaps be fixed if well educated kids from well off families start playing cricket. In the 70's and 80's - Pakistan was represented by decent people who knew how to hold a spoon.

In all, I would like to see the following system: school - club - city - under 16/19 - domestic (8 teams with second elevens) - national.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I think instead of a provincial structure. They should have made the tournament city based with 10-12 major cities of Pakistan. People in Pakistan as evidenced by the PSL identify more with cities than provinces.

This is a great shout

When doing so they should bring back the established brands like Faisalabad Wolves, Sialkot Stallions etc.

I still cant believe PCB threw these gems onto the scrapheap.

Even teams like Hyderabad Hawks and Rawalpindi Rams had a decent following.

There may be a risk of clashes with PSL team names that could scare franchise owners so instead of Lahore, Peshawar etc the major cities could just adopt the name of the closest cities/town to them.

I.e Mardan for Peshawar, Gujranwala for Lahore.

 

[Mamoon]

The smart thing to do would be to compliment the current system with more teams.

Basically, Najam Sethi needs to provide free money to just about enough cricketers so that the Akmals/Butts etc shut-up on YouTube.

He has an easy solution for results

1. Results bad: System was bad and it will take time to fix things
2. Results good: Hey look I fixed it

This is the same tactic used by the previous regimes & the previous governments. If he adopts the same tactic he will be justified to do so.

 

[Liverpool_Faizan]

Lol a lot of my inner circle society in Pakistan are happy about this. Apparently they’re already looking for recalls to domestic cricket and have been informed to get ready

 

[Flat_Track_Bully]

Structural changes like these take a decade to show a return. Trigger fingers and corruption is a Pakistani speciality which only results in medicority and the hope of a "messiah" player to save them.

 

[Finisher]

Pakistans second test wins main players turned their careers around during the Imran Khans System

Agha Salman went from a lower order batter to batting at number 3 for Southern Punjab

Kamran Gulam went from a lower order batsman who chipped in with a few overs to a number 3 and topped the batting

Sajid Khan and Nauman Ali topped the bowling charts