What is or has been India's legacy to the world?

[Cpt. Rishwat]

If you talk about that era (6th-7th century India) there are at least 2 mathematicians who will be counted among the greatest ever in that highly competitive field. By greatest ever I mean in the same breath as Gauss, Newton, Euler, Ramanujan, Fermat.

Aryabhata
Brahmagupta

Even Panini (1000 years before the Guptas, from Gandhara, modern day Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]) wasn't just a grammarian

Fast forward to 12th century and we also have Madhava and Bhaskaracharya.

Their inventions weren't trivial, legends like Gauss, Galois, Leibniz have taken inspiration from their body of work, carried forward their mathematical theorems and methods.

These weren't the only ancient mathematicians, we can not underplay the significance of scholars from that era just because some University professor can crack them today, today's greats stand on the shoulders of giants of that era.

Chess (Chaturanga) was invented in the Guptan age, but the game has evolved and become almost unrecognizable today. Doesn't mean we underrate the pioneers. What if I told you there were puzzles which couldn't be solved by the best of humanity for 1000 years? Since I was talking about the Islamic Golden Age in my previous post a while back allow me to present an interesting piece of information. A few years ago I came across the profile of an Arab (or Persian/Turkic, unsure of origin) chess player from the 9th century, Abu Bakr bin Yahya al-Suli who was employed in the services of the Caliph of Baghdad. A legendary player of shatranj (different rules compared to modern day chess) in that era who used to give blindfold simuls. He wrote the Kitab Al-Shitranj dealing with chess strategy and one of the more important historical sources on the early history of chess. It had a problem known as 'Al-Suli’s Diamond', a puzzle that went unsolved for more than 1000 years. The problem was cracked by Soviet GM Yuri Averbakh in the 1980s. And this wasn't the only such puzzle which eluded many for centuries, there are other examples from other empires including Indian ones. If you give me a choice to live a princely life in the Mughal era or as a commoner in the services of Al-Suli I would choose the latter, that is the kind of legacy that attracts me.

Similarly in mathematics quite a few inventions made in 6th century engaged the best of minds for over a millennium. Today those concepts are covered in UG maths courses or even high school (eg Archimedes, Euclid) but that doesn't diminish the greatness of our predecessors who didn't have tools and knowledge base we have today a button click away.

I think perhaps a lot of the legacy we are talking about when it comes to India is intellectual and perhaps that is why the recognition isn't as tangible outside of India itself. Others have used those insights and built on them in ways which Indians maybe found foreign to their philosophy. There seems to be a lot more depth in spiritual matters in the east, whereas in the west it was also applied to practical application such as industry and war machines.

I did mention yoga and vegan diet in my OP which some decried as mockery, but actually both of those are now being taken very seriously in the west - although maybe more seriously than in India itself in case of vegans - as pointed out by Napa, vegetarian diet would be more accurate.

 

[Itachi]

That's not loot. Trillions of loot is mentioned, so where is it?

those assets are priceless. Not even trillions can buy them.

 

[Technics 1210]

those assets are priceless. Not even trillions can buy them.

They are not assets; they are revenue generators, or simple, business. Tell me, how is it, with all the agricultural land, why did the indigenous of the SC fail to cultivate their land and sell resources and commodities to other nations for over 1000s of years? Going to blame someone else? Why did it take the British to teach a near Billion how to profit from their land?

You mentioned – “Years where people were forced to live like a second class citizen.”, I got news for you bud, even today people are forced to live a second class citizens in India.

You also mentioned, “Lost generations who were forced to fight for basic rights instead of pursuing education to bring India ahead.”, there are lost generations in India since the British left, and present day innocent Indians fighting for basic rights.

I can sit here and start moaning about lost revenue, but this does not address the simple claim of loot. What loot is there to return? Kohi-noor? That it?

 

[Itachi]

They are not assets; they are revenue generators, or simple, business. Tell me, how is it, with all the agricultural land, why did the indigenous of the SC fail to cultivate their land and sell resources and commodities to other nations for over 1000s of years? Going to blame someone else? Why did it take the British to teach a near Billion how to profit from their land?

You mentioned – “Years where people were forced to live like a second class citizen.”, I got news for you bud, even today people are forced to live a second class citizens in India.

You also mentioned, “Lost generations who were forced to fight for basic rights instead of pursuing education to bring India ahead.”, there are lost generations in India since the British left, and present day innocent Indians fighting for basic rights.

I can sit here and start moaning about lost revenue, but this does not address the simple claim of loot. What loot is there to return? Kohi-noor? That it?

when you look at people as "revenue generators", then i have no explanation. I guess the definition of "being human" is different with respect to you and me which is followed by difference of the definition of "asset".

 

[Technics 1210]

when you look at people as "revenue generators", then i have no explanation. I guess the definition of "being human" is different with respect to you and me which is followed by difference of the definition of "asset".

I just simply asked the question, what loot would Indian want the British to return given all the crocodile tears. If you are going to come out with morality and Human resources et al, then it is you who is conflating human life with value, not me.

Talk to me about the loot. The stuff stolen by the British from India; physical assets of value, none of this morality and subjective nonsense.

So, Kohi Noor tops the list? What else?

 

[Itachi]

I just simply asked the question, what loot would Indian want the British to return given all the crocodile tears. If you are going to come out with morality and Human resources et al, then it is you who is conflating human life with value, not me.

Talk to me about the loot. The stuff stolen by the British from India; physical assets of value, none of this morality and subjective nonsense.

So, Kohi Noor tops the list? What else?

i already stated.

Here's the difference of opinion. You think of it as "revenue generators". For me, think of it as losing something which can't be bought by money.

We have different standpoint from materialistic point of view. What is important to you, won't be important to me. What is important to me, will be negligible in your eyes.

 

[Technics 1210]

i already stated.

Here's the difference of opinion. You think of it as "revenue generators". For me, think of it as losing something which can't be bought by money.

We have different standpoint from materialistic point of view. What is important to you, won't be important to me. What is important to me, will be negligible in your eyes.

Nice philosophy & psychology.

I notice how you failed to answer my question on cultivation of land, I do wonder why, perhaps not.

Save the reverse psychology, lets deal with facts. You have no list of loot, you and the other 100s of millions who bleat day in day out, generation in generation out, how the British looted India, there is no loot. All this talk about Trillions and the world owing to India is a bluff and victimized nonsense. The reality is that the people of the SC were simply not smart enough to realize the potential of their land.

The British did not divide the SC, the SC was already divided when the British arrived. This is why it was so easy to control the SC using minimal resources. Caste system says hello. All the British had to do was exploit the division - divide and conquer.

You can blame the British for a lot of things, but you cannot blame them for being smarter.

Anyway, you got no loot.

 

[Local.Dada]

You can't really say that innovators and creators are the same as worker drones. Only one of those are going to be credited with leaving a legacy. That said, there's nothing to say that India can't produce the next Bill Gates or Steve Jobs. They just haven't done it yet.

Firstly what is your definition of a worker drone? Are you putting a guy who works hard in a factory assembly line and a CEO of a company in the same bracket?

These Top companies don't hire any Tom,Dick and Harry off the street.They hire someone with great work ethic and obviously as a CEO of a multi-billion $ company you need to have a grand vision and most importantly for starters and let me underline this for you academic credentials


You seem to take pride in being a westerner -whatever that means . So let us consider the pinnacle of western education- Getting higher education in the USA .

Now as we discussed before all these CEO's of Indian origin have stellar academic records and credentials.

Guess what the common theme among them is -they all come from top of the line Indian colleges/universities like IIT/IIM etc from India. This gives them a very strong foundation to shine in these universities.

Now to your next point about innovation.Historically innovation has always happened when a country has had a surplus and people have had a high standard of living be it ancient Greece,Rome,India,China or later on in Europe- The industrial revolution etc. Guess what is common about Jobs,Zuckerberg and Gates. They are all American.

What was the last big breakthrough Britain gave the world anyway? That is not a dig, just proves my point.

Also I am assuming when you say innovation you are referring to modern gadgets that you are aware of like say an Ipad, or Smart TV or Facebook . There are plenty of patents that Indian students hold that especially us who don't belong to scientific community are not aware of. These patents may not be as glamorous to you as a final product like a smartphone or a VR Glass.

To pass from MIT and Caltech itself you need to be involved in innovative projects.

The moment you see an Indian student as we discussed earlier it is automatically assumed he must be brilliant in Math/Tech regardless of how applicable it may be to that individual.

Now you might again go back to call center or the Engineer working in a IT company for peanuts examples.

Let me put it to you in Pakistan cricket context. Wasim Akram's legacy produced an army of left arm bowlers. How many of them are even close to Wasim? That is what legacy means. That is what these leaders in silicon valley have done for the next gen. Sure you will get some worker drone type guy just following orders.

Anyway what is wrong in being a drone as long as you make a good honest living, contribute to the economy by paying decent taxes and being an overall good citizen?.

It is worse than having a stereotype associated of leeching off of welfare etc that some communities have. Again I am totally against stereotypes.

Glad producing engineers and silicon valley leaders is seen as one of India's modern day legacy.

 

[AdamM97]

Perhaps that is because it hasn't translated to India as a country itself. Mathematics is a very precise science, when you see India, it all looks like a jumbled mess. All the scientific knowledge doesn't appear to have translated to building an impressive nation, hence sadly, no one associates great scientists with India.

It’s because most recent scientific discoveries has been done by the west. Until very recently, the western world had a complete monopoly on maths and science.

A good example is the Fibonacci sequence which was actually discovered 1700 years earlier by Indian mathematician Pingala.

I read somewhere that the Pytaghorean Theorem was actually a Babylonian or Egyptian discovery, I’m not too sure about it though.

 

[AdamM97]

Firstly what is your definition of a worker drone? Are you putting a guy who works hard in a factory assembly line and a CEO of a company in the same bracket?

These Top companies don't hire any Tom,Dick and Harry off the street.They hire someone with great work ethic and obviously as a CEO of a multi-billion $ company you need to have a grand vision and most importantly for starters and let me underline this for you academic credentials


You seem to take pride in being a westerner -whatever that means . So let us consider the pinnacle of western education- Getting higher education in the USA .

Now as we discussed before all these CEO's of Indian origin have stellar academic records and credentials.

Guess what the common theme among them is -they all come from top of the line Indian colleges/universities like IIT/IIM etc from India. This gives them a very strong foundation to shine in these universities.

Now to your next point about innovation.Historically innovation has always happened when a country has had a surplus and people have had a high standard of living be it ancient Greece,Rome,India,China or later on in Europe- The industrial revolution etc. Guess what is common about Jobs,Zuckerberg and Gates. They are all American.

What was the last big breakthrough Britain gave the world anyway? That is not a dig, just proves my point.

Also I am assuming when you say innovation you are referring to modern gadgets that you are aware of like say an Ipad, or Smart TV or Facebook . There are plenty of patents that Indian students hold that especially us who don't belong to scientific community are not aware of. These patents may not be as glamorous to you as a final product like a smartphone or a VR Glass.

To pass from MIT and Caltech itself you need to be involved in innovative projects.

The moment you see an Indian student as we discussed earlier it is automatically assumed he must be brilliant in Math/Tech regardless of how applicable it may be to that individual.

Now you might again go back to call center or the Engineer working in a IT company for peanuts examples.

Let me put it to you in Pakistan cricket context. Wasim Akram's legacy produced an army of left arm bowlers. How many of them are even close to Wasim? That is what legacy means. That is what these leaders in silicon valley have done for the next gen. Sure you will get some worker drone type guy just following orders.

Anyway what is wrong in being a drone as long as you make a good honest living, contribute to the economy by paying decent taxes and being an overall good citizen?.

It is worse than having a stereotype associated of leeching off of welfare etc that some communities have. Again I am totally against stereotypes.

Glad producing engineers and silicon valley leaders is seen as one of India's modern day legacy.

Being proud of producing 5-10 CEOs from a population of 1.2 billion isn’t something to be proud of tbh.

Of course India has completely outdone Pakistan in this aspect but consider the fact that 20% of all Nobel laureates are Jewish while their population is only 0.2% of the entire world population.

Proportionally speaking, Europeans have achieved far more than any other race in the world.

 

[Local.Dada]

Being proud of producing 5-10 CEOs from a population of 1.2 billion isn’t something to be proud of tbh.

Of course India has completely outdone Pakistan in this aspect but consider the fact that 20% of all Nobel laureates are Jewish while their population is only 0.2% of the entire world population.

Proportionally speaking, Europeans have achieved far more than any other race in the world.

You are not understanding my point. Becoming a CEO is an individual and personal accomplishment. That part has nothing to do with India's legacy.

The point I was making is the fact that most if not all Indian students excel in academics in the west and then some of them get employed by the biggest companies in the world and few of them end make it to the top makes Indian work ethic and focus on education a legacy in itself.

It is easy to say India or Pakistanis for the matter of fact don't have a legacy of innovation. Try getting a patent issued or a business started in the subcontinent. It is a nightmare. First there will be a million people making fun of you even the ones close to you and discourage you from your dream. On top of that the system makes it a nightmare for all the other processes. it is easier said than done.

The only way out to make people see your brains is in academics and that is what Indians have been doing and succeeding in.

Start ups and ease of doing business are beginning to lighten up in India .

It will take time to siwtch to the line of thinking.

 

[chinaman00]

Zero

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Firstly what is your definition of a worker drone? Are you putting a guy who works hard in a factory assembly line and a CEO of a company in the same bracket?

These Top companies don't hire any Tom,Dick and Harry off the street.They hire someone with great work ethic and obviously as a CEO of a multi-billion $ company you need to have a grand vision and most importantly for starters and let me underline this for you academic credentials


You seem to take pride in being a westerner -whatever that means . So let us consider the pinnacle of western education- Getting higher education in the USA .

Now as we discussed before all these CEO's of Indian origin have stellar academic records and credentials.

Guess what the common theme among them is -they all come from top of the line Indian colleges/universities like IIT/IIM etc from India. This gives them a very strong foundation to shine in these universities.

Now to your next point about innovation.Historically innovation has always happened when a country has had a surplus and people have had a high standard of living be it ancient Greece,Rome,India,China or later on in Europe- The industrial revolution etc. Guess what is common about Jobs,Zuckerberg and Gates. They are all American.

What was the last big breakthrough Britain gave the world anyway? That is not a dig, just proves my point.

Also I am assuming when you say innovation you are referring to modern gadgets that you are aware of like say an Ipad, or Smart TV or Facebook . There are plenty of patents that Indian students hold that especially us who don't belong to scientific community are not aware of. These patents may not be as glamorous to you as a final product like a smartphone or a VR Glass.

To pass from MIT and Caltech itself you need to be involved in innovative projects.

The moment you see an Indian student as we discussed earlier it is automatically assumed he must be brilliant in Math/Tech regardless of how applicable it may be to that individual.

Now you might again go back to call center or the Engineer working in a IT company for peanuts examples.

Let me put it to you in Pakistan cricket context. Wasim Akram's legacy produced an army of left arm bowlers. How many of them are even close to Wasim? That is what legacy means. That is what these leaders in silicon valley have done for the next gen. Sure you will get some worker drone type guy just following orders.

Anyway what is wrong in being a drone as long as you make a good honest living, contribute to the economy by paying decent taxes and being an overall good citizen?.

It is worse than having a stereotype associated of leeching off of welfare etc that some communities have. Again I am totally against stereotypes.

Glad producing engineers and silicon valley leaders is seen as one of India's modern day legacy.

Not really sure how any of that long essay translates to legacy, what you seem to be saying is, India is still developing and we might see fruits of it tomorrow....and anyway at least they are doing better than British Pakistanis. This seems to be a constant reference in most of your contributions so far, although not really so much of a legacy in the normal understanding of the terms I would have thought.

 

[Local.Dada]

Not really sure how any of that long essay translates to legacy, what you seem to be saying is, India is still developing and we might see fruits of it tomorrow....and anyway at least they are doing better than British Pakistanis. This seems to be a constant reference in most of your contributions so far, although not really so much of a legacy in the normal understanding of the terms I would have thought.

True,long essay is pointless when it fails to deliver the message or the person it is intended for has already made up his mind .

What part of strong academics is a legacy and innovation is a work in progress did you miss. Don't answer that at this point it is fine I guess lol.

I don't mean to reference your heritage of being a British Pakistani as an insult, I thought you were talking about stereotypes and I was just trying to use it as a reference to make my point. I guess I failed there too.

On a lighter note this interaction reminds me of a family memory. Few years back when my nephew who may have been 8-9 years old then , was quiet the brat.

I heard him use a bad/abusive word towards his brother, so in order to teach him a lesson I grabbed him by his arm and said will let go only if he apologizes to his brother.

He first tried to fight it out,then yelled,then winced, finally cried but refused to say sorry.

After a point I was scared and didn't want to hurt him by putting too much pressure. so I let go and in the end he never apologized.

I don't know if I should take that on my ego or not. However as time has gone by he has matured into a fine,respectful,intelligent kid, so it wasn't all bad.However that was a case of a brain still evolving and learning new things along the way.

Now why am I telling you this story or what does this analogy mean, well there is a subcontinental saying in Hindi/Urdu not sure if you heard it in Britain, it is called "samajhdar ko ishara hi kaafi hai"

 

[Swashbuckler]

Excellent post and a very enlightening one. We don't see or hear much about the Gupta Empire much in the west, whereas the Mughal one is still very fresh, possibly because the British competed directly with the Mughals over what we now call India.

I like your theory about the impact of British competing with Mughals being a reason, interesting take.

Also Gupta empire was such a long time ago, seems a shame that we don't hear more about their history. Possibly not much left of that civilisation in physical terms which would put down a marker, like the great Pyramids of Egypt for example.

That is applicable for much of the Northern part of the subcontinent, in physical terms we have lost a lot of heritage. This could be because of the never ending battery of invasions right from the ancient period during Cyrus the Great's (Achaemenid Empire) reign, before that the Aryans (if one believes the Aryan Migration theory which is still a contentious issue). Greeks, Parthians, Scythians, Bactrians, Huns, Persians, Turks, Arabs, Mongols and many more. Each ethnic group contributed to the making of Indian culture but because of the non stop wars and unrest a lot of heritage must have been lost. South India is different, especially a state like Tamil Nadu where architecture from over 2000 years back stands tall even now, the Europeans who finally got a hold over our region were good at preservation of monuments.

North wasn't so lucky, also architecture can't peak without calm and order. Many of the invaders killed local artisans and their patrons, or took them back to their native lands. It is never easy to let the creative juices flow in a tumultuous atmosphere, something that is holding back South Asia even today. Amir Timur caused havoc in Northern India in 1400, the Tughlaq dynasty ruled over that area and was the unfortunate victim. After Timur left there was no architectural symbol of importance in North for the next 200 years. The Sayyids and Lodis who followed the Tughlaqs had nothing to show either, do observe that lacuna in art, architecture, literature in that period. Since Mughals had a long uninterrupted reign (contrast that to their Islamic predecessors, various dynasties of Delhi Sultanate) sans invasions which also saw law and order as well as strong central administration they were able to come up with rich culture.

Luckily for them when they were supplanted by the British their cultural legacy was left intact. In fact the Brits went a step further and preserved that heritage, conducted research, found many gems that were hidden away for many years. Sir Alexander Cunningham founded the Archaeological Survey of India for archaeological research and the conservation and preservation of cultural monuments in the country. If Mughal monuments are in fine shape today we should also thank the Britishers who were mature enough to recognize the importance besides bringing in their expertise in science and technology to increase the shelf life. We give the white sahibs a lot of flak, some of the criticism if justified but no denying they were equally responsible for discovering our own legacy, our ancient past. It was also their commitment, scientific spirit and genius that brought to light one of the oldest and mightiest civilizations much before the Iron Age (Harappan Civilization), something we had no knowledge of then. Amidst all the doom and gloom, whining and moaning about the Raj, credit where due .

Perhaps you could contribute some highlights of Guta Empire which we could record as legacy here. Surely this thread would be as good a place for it as any.

Expanding on the previous point unfortunately not much of physical evidence remains of that empire, most of it lost through time. Mostly what we know about them are from literary, epigraphical and
numismatic sources. The famous Chinese traveler Fahien, who visited India during the reign of
Chandragupta II is another important source of information about the Gupta empire.

Since you are a Brit if you plan to go to Birmingham Museum do check out the Sultangunj copper statue of Buddha, a shining representative of craftsmanship then. More than their pieces of architecture (chiefly temples that aren't in the best of shape because of Hun invasions) I would like to emphasize the metallurgical achievement of that empire. They commissioned plenty of Iron pillars, one of the more famous ones is the Delhi iron pillar near Qutb Minar, free of rust despite being completely exposed to the vagaries of weather gods for 1600 years. It continues to befuddle scholars even today. If you are familiar with the Ajantha Caves (UNESCO World Heritage Site) the mural paintings were done in the Guptan age, they reached their highest form.

When it comes to intellectual pursuits that was our "Golden Age". I am sure you will find more info on the net but I will try to highlight some of the achievements. Since I am not a historian I will miss many, especially those names that don't roll of my tongue easily.

Sanskrit literature reached its highest form, majority of the great works we see now are a product of that era. We had Navratnas (9 gems) in Chandragupta Vikramaditya's court. One of them was Kalidas who was famous for the play 'Shakuntala', our country's name 'Bharat' comes from there, in case you are wondering Bharat was the son of the titular character. He also wrote many classical epics of great importance to our culture. Vishakadatta, Sudraka, Dandin, Bharavi, Amarasimha etc were some big names in literature but I think the details will bore you. To keep things short, myself being a Hindu who believes that most of our religious beliefs are based on mythology and not history the present versions of Ramayan and Mahabharat were a product of this age and truly outstanding literary achievements. Both the epics transcend boundaries, when you talk about the classical epics these two will find spots alongside Gilgamesh, Odyssey, Iliad, Silappatikaram, Shahnameh etc. The Puranas in their present version were also composed during this period, they are Hindu religious texts.

In maths apart from the couple of names I mentioned in the earlier post, there was Varahamihira who was an expert in astronomy, also dabbled in maths and physics. Their scholarly works were translated to Arabic and Persian during the Islamic Golden Age, the leading intellectuals of the Muslim world learnt and added their inputs to these works before the knowledge went to the West. Just like Guptan India, there were some big names in the scientific field patronized by the caliphs, for instance Khwarizmi who was honoured by Google Doodle recently. He cites the Indian scholars extensively in his works.

In the field of medicine Vaghbhata lived during this period, one of the developers of Ayurveda, a traditional system of medicine. Unani medicine too has been influenced by his texts along with some other systems.

Hope these highlights weren't too boring .

 

[Local.Dada]

[MENTION=143530]Swashbuckler[/MENTION] very good post. However not sure if it will make a difference.

Also I think most people are stuck on what the west perceives as a legacy. Even the one's actually trying to discuss this.

South East Asian countries have a lot of cultural footprint from ancient India. In fact these countries despite some of them being islamic and christian have embraced their ancient Hindi or Buddhist pasts than our neighboring countries.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

True,long essay is pointless when it fails to deliver the message or the person it is intended for has already made up his mind .

What part of strong academics is a legacy and innovation is a work in progress did you miss. Don't answer that at this point it is fine I guess lol.

I don't mean to reference your heritage of being a British Pakistani as an insult, I thought you were talking about stereotypes and I was just trying to use it as a reference to make my point. I guess I failed there too.

I didn't take it as an insult, although probably quite telling that you have interpreted it as such. Just seemed quite strange that you kept referring to British Pakistanis in a thread where you could impress India's legacy freely. Perhaps you agree with CricketCartoons that India's biggest legacy to the world is Pakistan.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

[MENTION=143530]Swashbuckler[/MENTION]

Another highly informative post. I never really thought of it from that point of view re south India having preserved much of it's physical heritage whereas north may have lost some of it or adopted from those they came into conflict with.

 

[big_gamer007]

I like your theory about the impact of British competing with Mughals being a reason, interesting take.



That is applicable for much of the Northern part of the subcontinent, in physical terms we have lost a lot of heritage. This could be because of the never ending battery of invasions right from the ancient period during Cyrus the Great's (Achaemenid Empire) reign, before that the Aryans (if one believes the Aryan Migration theory which is still a contentious issue). Greeks, Parthians, Scythians, Bactrians, Huns, Persians, Turks, Arabs, Mongols and many more. Each ethnic group contributed to the making of Indian culture but because of the non stop wars and unrest a lot of heritage must have been lost. South India is different, especially a state like Tamil Nadu where architecture from over 2000 years back stands tall even now, the Europeans who finally got a hold over our region were good at preservation of monuments.

North wasn't so lucky, also architecture can't peak without calm and order. Many of the invaders killed local artisans and their patrons, or took them back to their native lands. It is never easy to let the creative juices flow in a tumultuous atmosphere, something that is holding back South Asia even today. Amir Timur caused havoc in Northern India in 1400, the Tughlaq dynasty ruled over that area and was the unfortunate victim. After Timur left there was no architectural symbol of importance in North for the next 200 years. The Sayyids and Lodis who followed the Tughlaqs had nothing to show either, do observe that lacuna in art, architecture, literature in that period. Since Mughals had a long uninterrupted reign (contrast that to their Islamic predecessors, various dynasties of Delhi Sultanate) sans invasions which also saw law and order as well as strong central administration they were able to come up with rich culture.

Luckily for them when they were supplanted by the British their cultural legacy was left intact. In fact the Brits went a step further and preserved that heritage, conducted research, found many gems that were hidden away for many years. Sir Alexander Cunningham founded the Archaeological Survey of India for archaeological research and the conservation and preservation of cultural monuments in the country. If Mughal monuments are in fine shape today we should also thank the Britishers who were mature enough to recognize the importance besides bringing in their expertise in science and technology to increase the shelf life. We give the white sahibs a lot of flak, some of the criticism if justified but no denying they were equally responsible for discovering our own legacy, our ancient past. It was also their commitment, scientific spirit and genius that brought to light one of the oldest and mightiest civilizations much before the Iron Age (Harappan Civilization), something we had no knowledge of then. Amidst all the doom and gloom, whining and moaning about the Raj, credit where due .



Expanding on the previous point unfortunately not much of physical evidence remains of that empire, most of it lost through time. Mostly what we know about them are from literary, epigraphical and
numismatic sources. The famous Chinese traveler Fahien, who visited India during the reign of
Chandragupta II is another important source of information about the Gupta empire.

Since you are a Brit if you plan to go to Birmingham Museum do check out the Sultangunj copper statue of Buddha, a shining representative of craftsmanship then. More than their pieces of architecture (chiefly temples that aren't in the best of shape because of Hun invasions) I would like to emphasize the metallurgical achievement of that empire. They commissioned plenty of Iron pillars, one of the more famous ones is the Delhi iron pillar near Qutb Minar, free of rust despite being completely exposed to the vagaries of weather gods for 1600 years. It continues to befuddle scholars even today. If you are familiar with the Ajantha Caves (UNESCO World Heritage Site) the mural paintings were done in the Guptan age, they reached their highest form.

When it comes to intellectual pursuits that was our "Golden Age". I am sure you will find more info on the net but I will try to highlight some of the achievements. Since I am not a historian I will miss many, especially those names that don't roll of my tongue easily.

Sanskrit literature reached its highest form, majority of the great works we see now are a product of that era. We had Navratnas (9 gems) in Chandragupta Vikramaditya's court. One of them was Kalidas who was famous for the play 'Shakuntala', our country's name 'Bharat' comes from there, in case you are wondering Bharat was the son of the titular character. He also wrote many classical epics of great importance to our culture. Vishakadatta, Sudraka, Dandin, Bharavi, Amarasimha etc were some big names in literature but I think the details will bore you. To keep things short, myself being a Hindu who believes that most of our religious beliefs are based on mythology and not history the present versions of Ramayan and Mahabharat were a product of this age and truly outstanding literary achievements. Both the epics transcend boundaries, when you talk about the classical epics these two will find spots alongside Gilgamesh, Odyssey, Iliad, Silappatikaram, Shahnameh etc. The Puranas in their present version were also composed during this period, they are Hindu religious texts.

In maths apart from the couple of names I mentioned in the earlier post, there was Varahamihira who was an expert in astronomy, also dabbled in maths and physics. Their scholarly works were translated to Arabic and Persian during the Islamic Golden Age, the leading intellectuals of the Muslim world learnt and added their inputs to these works before the knowledge went to the West. Just like Guptan India, there were some big names in the scientific field patronized by the caliphs, for instance Khwarizmi who was honoured by Google Doodle recently. He cites the Indian scholars extensively in his works.

In the field of medicine Vaghbhata lived during this period, one of the developers of Ayurveda, a traditional system of medicine. Unani medicine too has been influenced by his texts along with some other systems.

Hope these highlights weren't too boring .

Excellent read, [MENTION=93712]MenInG[/MENTION] this deserves POTW nomination.

 

[CricketCartoons]

I didn't take it as an insult, although probably quite telling that you have interpreted it as such. Just seemed quite strange that you kept referring to British Pakistanis in a thread where you could impress India's legacy freely. Perhaps you agree with CricketCartoons that India's biggest legacy to the world is Pakistan.

You are a liar. I said that Pakistan is "one" of india's major legacies. It may be their biggest legacy, but I have no way to rank them. The other major legacies of India are respect for human and animal rights, pacifism, inclusion and multi kulti. Other nations build their legacies through their military or economic strength, but india derives its tall stature in the world by the sheer power of its moral strength and remains a shining beacon of hope in an otherwise fragmented world heading towards despair.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Excellent read, [MENTION=93712]MenInG[/MENTION] this deserves POTW nomination.

For calling the gupta period "our golden age"? That was the age which gave birth to brahminical tyranny and serious historians have stopped calling it the hindus golden age decades ago. Only the ignorant or brahmical casteists consider it their golden age. I welcome anyone who wants to dispute that.

 

[AdamM97]

You are not understanding my point. Becoming a CEO is an individual and personal accomplishment. That part has nothing to do with India's legacy.

The point I was making is the fact that most if not all Indian students excel in academics in the west and then some of them get employed by the biggest companies in the world and few of them end make it to the top makes Indian work ethic and focus on education a legacy in itself.

It is easy to say India or Pakistanis for the matter of fact don't have a legacy of innovation. Try getting a patent issued or a business started in the subcontinent. It is a nightmare. First there will be a million people making fun of you even the ones close to you and discourage you from your dream. On top of that the system makes it a nightmare for all the other processes. it is easier said than done.

The only way out to make people see your brains is in academics and that is what Indians have been doing and succeeding in.

Start ups and ease of doing business are beginning to lighten up in India .

It will take time to siwtch to the line of thinking.

That is individual achievements. It has nothing to do with India as a country, so why take pride in it?

As I said, It’s obviously much easier to find successful lads from a country that hosts almost 1/6 of the world’s population. South Asians might excel when they go to the west, but that’s mostly because it is usually the best students that go abroad. A small portion doesn’t make up legacy.

As for the patents or the amount of Indians who succeed in the west, is it proportional to the size of India’s population?

 

[AdamM97]

That is individual achievements. It has nothing to do with India as a country, so why take pride in it?

As I said, It’s obviously much easier to find successful lads from a country that hosts almost 1/6 of the world’s population. South Asians might excel when they go to the west, but that’s mostly because it is usually the best students that go abroad. A small portion doesn’t make up legacy.

As for the patents or the amount of Indians who succeed in the west, is it proportional to the size of India’s population?

Ignore the last part. I misread the text.

 

[Napa]

You can't really say that innovators and creators are the same as worker drones. Only one of those are going to be credited with leaving a legacy. That said, there's nothing to say that India can't produce the next Bill Gates or Steve Jobs. They just haven't done it yet.

Seems like you know very little about modern industry. Let me give you a brief overview. By far the greatest sector in the modern global economy is the high tech sector, with the 4 largest tech companies MS, Amazon, Goog and Apple leaving legacy companies like Exxon, J&J, GE etc. far behind.

So who are the 5 biggest current players whose legacy will be remembered?

1. Bezos, no explanation required.
2. Nadella, took over MS when it was moribund and headed the way of IBM. In his time MS's market cap grew by $750 billion, whereas IBM which was similar in size shrunk by $10 billion under the leadership of Rometty. Nadella recently vanquished Bezos in getting the JEDI contract, which puts MS in a good position in the coming years to beat Amazon in the cloud.
3. Cook, carried on from where Jobs left and has kept Apple relevant.
4. Pichai, in his 4 years at the helm Google has added about $500 billion in market cap.
5. Kurian, put in charge of Google cloud when the previous leader Greene was failing. Cloud is where the tech industry is going to be in the future. In his one year on the job Kurian has completely turned it around Google's cloud. "Google’s gains have led to “severe competition” that has eroded growth rates for Amazon and Microsoft."
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/g...-is-sky-high-heading-into-earnings-2019-10-25

3 out of 5 of the biggest leaders in global corporations are Indians. When big companies are failing, leaders like Nadella and Kurian have engineered dramatic turnarounds.
[MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION] [MENTION=151383]Local.Dada[/MENTION] [MENTION=150746]SakunaPataka[/MENTION] [MENTION=134505]rhony[/MENTION] [MENTION=90888]Itachi[/MENTION] [MENTION=428]Romali_rotti[/MENTION]

 

[cric_man]

Seems like you know very little about modern industry. Let me give you a brief overview. By far the greatest sector in the modern global economy is the high tech sector, with the 4 largest tech companies MS, Amazon, Goog and Apple leaving legacy companies like Exxon, J&J, GE etc. far behind.

So who are the 5 biggest current players whose legacy will be remembered?

1. Bezos, no explanation required.
2. Nadella, took over MS when it was moribund and headed the way of IBM. In his time MS's market cap grew by $750 billion, whereas IBM which was similar in size shrunk by $10 billion under the leadership of Rometty. Nadella recently vanquished Bezos in getting the JEDI contract, which puts MS in a good position in the coming years to beat Amazon in the cloud.
3. Cook, carried on from where Jobs left and has kept Apple relevant.
4. Pichai, in his 4 years at the helm Google has added about $500 billion in market cap.
5. Kurian, put in charge of Google cloud when the previous leader Greene was failing. Cloud is where the tech industry is going to be in the future. In his one year on the job Kurian has completely turned it around Google's cloud. "Google’s gains have led to “severe competition” that has eroded growth rates for Amazon and Microsoft."
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/g...-is-sky-high-heading-into-earnings-2019-10-25

3 out of 5 of the biggest leaders in global corporations are Indians. When big companies are failing, leaders like Nadella and Kurian have engineered dramatic turnarounds.

[MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION] [MENTION=151383]Local.Dada[/MENTION] [MENTION=150746]SakunaPataka[/MENTION] [MENTION=134505]rhony[/MENTION] [MENTION=90888]Itachi[/MENTION] [MENTION=428]Romali_rotti[/MENTION]

Nadella did indeed right the MS ship which was languishing in doldrums during the Balmer era.
However , he had nothing to do with MS winning the JEDI contract. It had more to do with Trump explicitly telling Mattis to screw Amazon out of the contract. Even my MS buddies were surprised by the award.
AWS is way ahead of Azure when it comes to cloud computing.
The award will be contested in court by Amazon, and if Trump fails to win re-election will most probably be reviewed and awarded to AWS ala USAF tanker contest.

 

[Napa]

Nadella did indeed right the MS ship which was languishing in doldrums during the Balmer era.
However , he had nothing to do with MS winning the JEDI contract. It had more to do with Trump explicitly telling Mattis to screw Amazon out of the contract. Even my MS buddies were surprised by the award.
AWS is way ahead of Azure when it comes to cloud computing.
The award will be contested in court by Amazon, and if Trump fails to win re-election will most probably be reviewed and awarded to AWS ala USAF tanker contest.

The CEO gets both credit and discredit for the good and bad things that happen to a company.

Nadella has made Azure a faster growing and a viable competitor to AWS. If this had not happened, MS would never have got the JEDI contract irrespective of Trump's influence. Nadella also has made MS work well with its partners, which is critical to its success.

As for Trump telling Matthis to screw Amazon, there is enough prior corruption by Amazon in this deal to justify it going to MS.
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/08/has-bezos-become-more-powerful-in-dc-than-trump

 

[Knight_Rider]

Seems like you know very little about modern industry. Let me give you a brief overview. By far the greatest sector in the modern global economy is the high tech sector, with the 4 largest tech companies MS, Amazon, Goog and Apple leaving legacy companies like Exxon, J&J, GE etc. far behind.

So who are the 5 biggest current players whose legacy will be remembered?

1. Bezos, no explanation required.
2. Nadella, took over MS when it was moribund and headed the way of IBM. In his time MS's market cap grew by $750 billion, whereas IBM which was similar in size shrunk by $10 billion under the leadership of Rometty. Nadella recently vanquished Bezos in getting the JEDI contract, which puts MS in a good position in the coming years to beat Amazon in the cloud.
3. Cook, carried on from where Jobs left and has kept Apple relevant.
4. Pichai, in his 4 years at the helm Google has added about $500 billion in market cap.
5. Kurian, put in charge of Google cloud when the previous leader Greene was failing. Cloud is where the tech industry is going to be in the future. In his one year on the job Kurian has completely turned it around Google's cloud. "Google’s gains have led to “severe competition” that has eroded growth rates for Amazon and Microsoft."
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/g...-is-sky-high-heading-into-earnings-2019-10-25

3 out of 5 of the biggest leaders in global corporations are Indians. When big companies are failing, leaders like Nadella and Kurian have engineered dramatic turnarounds.

[MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION] [MENTION=151383]Local.Dada[/MENTION] [MENTION=150746]SakunaPataka[/MENTION] [MENTION=134505]rhony[/MENTION] [MENTION=90888]Itachi[/MENTION] [MENTION=428]Romali_rotti[/MENTION]

What has that gotta do with India’s legacy to World History?

They have been providers of cheap labour and carry on with that today. Even in this minuscule example: None of the companies that you are harping abt were created by the Indians.

 

[Napa]

What has that gotta do with India’s legacy to World History?

They have been providers of cheap labour and carry on with that today. Even in this minuscule example: None of the companies that you are harping abt were created by the Indians.

Read the post I was replying to.

 

[cric_man]

The CEO gets both credit and discredit for the good and bad things that happen to a company.

Nadella has made Azure a faster growing and a viable competitor to AWS. If this had not happened, MS would never have got the JEDI contract irrespective of Trump's influence. Nadella also has made MS work well with its partners, which is critical to its success.

As for Trump telling Matthis to screw Amazon, there is enough prior corruption by Amazon in this deal to justify it going to MS.
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/08/has-bezos-become-more-powerful-in-dc-than-trump

Totally agree on highlighted. But still Azure is not even 50% of what AWS is.

Ask any Microsoft (Azure) employee if on purely the basis of capabilities offered, Azure is better than AWS.

As for "alleged" corruption you so emphatically stated as fact, please tell me how many, if any Amazon employees have been convicted?
Is there a revolving door of government employees getting cushy lobbying/corporate job, yes that exists. Did Amazon play in the ethically grey area, most probably. But nothing illegal was done.

Look up USAF Tanker (Aerial refueler) contract saga.
The initial contract was awarded as a lease to Boeing in 2002. Then was scrapped with allegation of impropriety. Darleen A. Druyun -- Principal Deputy Undersecretary of the Air Force for Acquisition, was provided a cushy job at Boeing. She was later convicted and spent 9 month is prison. Boeing CFO convicted and spent 4 months. Boign CEO resigned. Subsequent contract was awarded Airbus / NorthropGrumman. Boeing complained (more like congressmen/senators from WA, MS, SC). The contract was cancelled again and new bids were requested under new guidelines (which Airbus complained were taylor made to fit Boeing's proposal. Boeing eventually won the contract after 10 years and mucking up the initial contract.
Bottom line Boeing still got the contract after felony charges against it during the initial contract.

 

[Napa]

Totally agree on highlighted. But still Azure is not even 50% of what AWS is.

Ask any Microsoft (Azure) employee if on purely the basis of capabilities offered, Azure is better than AWS.

As for "alleged" corruption you so emphatically stated as fact, please tell me how many, if any Amazon employees have been convicted?
Is there a revolving door of government employees getting cushy lobbying/corporate job, yes that exists. Did Amazon play in the ethically grey area, most probably. But nothing illegal was done.

Look up USAF Tanker (Aerial refueler) contract saga.
The initial contract was awarded as a lease to Boeing in 2002. Then was scrapped with allegation of impropriety. Darleen A. Druyun -- Principal Deputy Undersecretary of the Air Force for Acquisition, was provided a cushy job at Boeing. She was later convicted and spent 9 month is prison. Boeing CFO convicted and spent 4 months. Boign CEO resigned. Subsequent contract was awarded Airbus / NorthropGrumman. Boeing complained (more like congressmen/senators from WA, MS, SC). The contract was cancelled again and new bids were requested under new guidelines (which Airbus complained were taylor made to fit Boeing's proposal. Boeing eventually won the contract after 10 years and mucking up the initial contract.
Bottom line Boeing still got the contract after felony charges against it during the initial contract.

There is corruption which is prosecutable, but more widespread is corruption that stays within legal boundaries. Donnely and Ubhi Deap corruptly helped Amazon, but a case against them and Amazon won't stand up in a court of law.

If Amazon indulges in non-prosecutable corruption and articles are published discussing that corruption, it is entirely within the remit of DoD officials to take that into account when deciding who to award the contract to. Not to so MS does not indulge in lobbying, but Amazon was rather blatant in its efforts to influence the process.

https://theintercept.com/2019/06/03/amazon-defense-department-jedi-contract/

The mainstream media (WaPo and its kin) want you to believe the big bad Trump screwed Amazon out of a contract it deserved. Maybe Trump was a decisive influence, but there are many other factors.

Amazon started as a firm selling books online, tried to take on Apple with its Kindle, got beaten out, tried to become a movie producer with its Amazon Prime video, started the cloud computing revolution with AWS thanks to Bezos' foresight.

As the first mover and relentless cost cutting, AWS remains the largest cloud firm. However, looking forward there is no reason to believe it will be the most capable one. Microsoft is a more comprehensive software company, and doesn't waste its energies trying to make movies. From an article that was published 2 years ago, and is even more true now.

as the Cloud Wars shift dramatically and strategically away from brute-force hardware to increasingly sophisticated and often-dazzling software, I believe Microsoft--#1 on my Cloud Wars Top 10—will continue to reign supreme over Amazon and every other cloud competitor because of Microsoft's 42-year history of deep immersion in software.

In citing the supremacy of software, I'm not slighting infrastructure or its importance—hey, all that gorgeous code's gotta run on something, right?—but some comments Steve Jobs made back in 2010 perfectly illustrate the ascendancy of software that we are witnessing today.

Microsoft has no weaknesses in the cloud, and is making it remarkably easy for customers to understand and consume its broad array of cloud services.

So fast-forwarding back to today, as Artificial Intelligence is arguably the hottest and highest-potential new technology in the enterprise space, only a software-native company like Microsoft could even dream about the ability to launch an AI division with more than 5,000 computer scientists and software engineers. Not 50 great people or 500, but more than 5,000. Microsoft created that AI unit just over a year ago.

Only a truly software-native company like Microsoft could put forth a profound perspective like this one from Satya Nadella that elegantly transcends the in-the-weeds fixation so many people have today on what cloud computing is

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bobeva...-because-its-all-about-software/#291bde6132cc

Anyway, all this is getting away from the subject of this thread. I respect what you have to say, but I think I have said all I have to on this sub-topic.

 

[Slog]

Seems like you know very little about modern industry. Let me give you a brief overview. By far the greatest sector in the modern global economy is the high tech sector, with the 4 largest tech companies MS, Amazon, Goog and Apple leaving legacy companies like Exxon, J&J, GE etc. far behind.

So who are the 5 biggest current players whose legacy will be remembered?

1. Bezos, no explanation required.
2. Nadella, took over MS when it was moribund and headed the way of IBM. In his time MS's market cap grew by $750 billion, whereas IBM which was similar in size shrunk by $10 billion under the leadership of Rometty. Nadella recently vanquished Bezos in getting the JEDI contract, which puts MS in a good position in the coming years to beat Amazon in the cloud.
3. Cook, carried on from where Jobs left and has kept Apple relevant.
4. Pichai, in his 4 years at the helm Google has added about $500 billion in market cap.
5. Kurian, put in charge of Google cloud when the previous leader Greene was failing. Cloud is where the tech industry is going to be in the future. In his one year on the job Kurian has completely turned it around Google's cloud. "Google’s gains have led to “severe competition” that has eroded growth rates for Amazon and Microsoft."
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/g...-is-sky-high-heading-into-earnings-2019-10-25

3 out of 5 of the biggest leaders in global corporations are Indians. When big companies are failing, leaders like Nadella and Kurian have engineered dramatic turnarounds.

[MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION] [MENTION=151383]Local.Dada[/MENTION] [MENTION=150746]SakunaPataka[/MENTION] [MENTION=134505]rhony[/MENTION] [MENTION=90888]Itachi[/MENTION] [MENTION=428]Romali_rotti[/MENTION]

All 3 are American citizens and did their advanced schooling in the US.

Additionally Greene wasn’t failing. You should point out To PayTM flipkart etc to make a stronger point.

 

[Napa]

All 3 are American citizens and did their advanced schooling in the US.

Additionally Greene wasn’t failing. You should point out To PayTM flipkart etc to make a stronger point.

1. I was replying to a post that suggested expat Indians are "worker drones". Indians who were born and grew up in India are definitely part of India's legacy to the modern world. Legacy of a country is created by its people.
2. Greene was definitely failing and was therefore replaced with Kurian.
https://www.crn.com/news/cloud/part...reene-failed-and-how-thomas-kurian-can-fix-it
3. If you think PayTM and Flipcart in any way compare to the cloud wars going on between Amazon, MS and Google, I don't have any time to discuss this with you.

 

[cric_man]

There is corruption which is prosecutable, but more widespread is corruption that stays within legal boundaries. Donnely and Ubhi Deap corruptly helped Amazon, but a case against them and Amazon won't stand up in a court of law.

Same as what Boeing has indulge many times in the past, even had execs jailed, but still gets awarded the biggest Military contracts.

The mainstream media (WaPo and its kin) want you to believe the big bad Trump screwed Amazon out of a contract it deserved. Maybe Trump was a decisive influence, but there are many other factors.

Care to share those other factors?

Amazon started as a firm selling books online, tried to take on Apple with its Kindle, got beaten out, tried to become a movie producer with its Amazon Prime video, started the cloud computing revolution with AWS thanks to Bezos' foresight.

You have a very flawed understanding of Amazon product development. Kindle was never built to take on Apple. Kindle is primarily an eBook reader that was developed to complement Amazon's primary business of selling books in digital format (in the early 2000s). Kindle papermate is still the largest selling ebook reader. Amazon's dominates the eBook market share (but not other digital media such as songs).
One product that did fail miserably was the fire phone. But that gave birth to Alexa (which was the digital assistant in the Fire phones). Alexa is a leader in voice activated products. FireTv is moving closer in capturing a major chunk of Smart TV interface competing with Roku.
Prime video is a free service (in the US) offered as part of your Prime membership, it is not a distraction but an added benefit!

As the first mover and relentless cost cutting, AWS remains the largest cloud firm. However, looking forward there is no reason to believe it will be the most capable one. Microsoft is a more comprehensive software company, and doesn't waste its energies trying to make movies. From an article that was published 2 years ago, and is even more true now.

Anyway, all this is getting away from the subject of this thread. I respect what you have to say, but I think I have said all I have to on this sub-topic.

It maybe more capable then AWS maybe in the next 2-3 years if AWS stood still and did not innovate at all.

Azure has no comparisons to technologies like deep lense or x-ray at hte moment. When you are in the market to buy a car right now, you will compare what is available in the market right now, not what might be available in the future.

Again not taking away from Nadella's achievements, just correcting the facts on AWS.


We can agree to disagree as this is derailing the thread.

 

[Itachi]

Same as what Boeing has indulge many times in the past, even had execs jailed, but still gets awarded the biggest Military contracts.


Care to share those other factors?


You have a very flawed understanding of Amazon product development. Kindle was never built to take on Apple. Kindle is primarily an eBook reader that was developed to complement Amazon's primary business of selling books in digital format (in the early 2000s). Kindle papermate is still the largest selling ebook reader. Amazon's dominates the eBook market share (but not other digital media such as songs).
One product that did fail miserably was the fire phone. But that gave birth to Alexa (which was the digital assistant in the Fire phones). Alexa is a leader in voice activated products. FireTv is moving closer in capturing a major chunk of Smart TV interface competing with Roku.
Prime video is a free service (in the US) offered as part of your Prime membership, it is not a distraction but an added benefit!



It maybe more capable then AWS maybe in the next 2-3 years if AWS stood still and did not innovate at all.

Azure has no comparisons to technologies like deep lense or x-ray at hte moment. When you are in the market to buy a car right now, you will compare what is available in the market right now, not what might be available in the future.

Again not taking away from Nadella's achievements, just correcting the facts on AWS.


We can agree to disagree as this is derailing the thread.

I'll agree with cric on these specific points.

Both on kindle and aws argument.

AWS is backbone of many paas/saas providers (excluding the direct clients) and thousands of organizations depend on these platform. AWS has more penetration in corporate sector than azure.

 

[Napa]

I'll agree with cric on these specific points.

Both on kindle and aws argument.

AWS is backbone of many paas/saas providers (excluding the direct clients) and thousands of organizations depend on these platform. AWS has more penetration in corporate sector than azure.

I thought the iPad had pretty decisively beaten out Kindle.

https://www.macrumors.com/2018/02/05/4q17-ipad-vs-other-tablet-sales-idc/

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

1. I was replying to a post that suggested expat Indians are "worker drones". Indians who were born and grew up in India are definitely part of India's legacy to the modern world. Legacy of a country is created by its people.
2. Greene was definitely failing and was therefore replaced with Kurian.
https://www.crn.com/news/cloud/part...reene-failed-and-how-thomas-kurian-can-fix-it
3. If you think PayTM and Flipcart in any way compare to the cloud wars going on between Amazon, MS and Google, I don't have any time to discuss this with you.

Legacy is something which gains recognition over time and becomes synonymous with that person or country. A couple of famous Indian immigrants doing well for American companies isn't really what I had in mind.

Perhaps when many nations are rushing to India to headhunt the IT top talent, and we get a few of these becoming household names, we will indeed be able to call it a legacy. I don't think we can claim to be there yet.

 

[Napa]

Legacy is something which gains recognition over time and becomes synonymous with that person or country. A couple of famous Indian immigrants doing well for American companies isn't really what I had in mind.

Perhaps when many nations are rushing to India to headhunt the IT top talent, and we get a few of these becoming household names, we will indeed be able to call it a legacy. I don't think we can claim to be there yet.

1. My response was to your "worker drones" comment which shows your profound lack of knowledge about what goes on at the higher levels of the corporate world.

2. Legacy does not need wide recognition as you seem to think. Galois, Carnot, Descartes, Fermat etc. obviously created a legacy for France and none of them are widely known. There is legacy which only those who are well informed know about, and then there is legacy that is popularly known (for example, Katy Perry with 108 million and Kim Kardashian with 62 million Twitter followers). Seems like legacy that is important for you is of the second sort, I am happy with the first sort.

No more replies.

 

[Knight_Rider]

1. My response was to your "worker drones" comment which shows your profound lack of knowledge about what goes on at the higher levels of the corporate world.

2. Legacy does not need wide recognition as you seem to think. Galois, Carnot, Descartes, Fermat etc. obviously created a legacy for France and none of them are widely known. There is legacy which only those who are well informed know about, and then there is legacy that is popularly known (for example, Katy Perry with 108 million and Kim Kardashian with 62 million Twitter followers). Seems like legacy that is important for you is of the second sort, I am happy with the first sort.

No more replies.

Thanks for the end of meaningless justifications.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

1. My response was to your "worker drones" comment which shows your profound lack of knowledge about what goes on at the higher levels of the corporate world.

2. Legacy does not need wide recognition as you seem to think. Galois, Carnot, Descartes, Fermat etc. obviously created a legacy for France and none of them are widely known. There is legacy which only those who are well informed know about, and then there is legacy that is popularly known (for example, Katy Perry with 108 million and Kim Kardashian with 62 million Twitter followers). Seems like legacy that is important for you is of the second sort, I am happy with the first sort.

No more replies.

You are the one who insists on using the IT industry as an example of Indian legacy, all I did was point out that when there is an Indian version of Zuckerberg, Gates or Jobs, then we can say yes, India has indeed produced someone who has left a legacy. Gates and co are hardly Kardashian or Kate Perry, but because you don't want to admit there is no equivalent ( yet) to the Microsoft or Apple figureheads, then you start talking about pop stars and reality tv shows.

I don't know why you are so miffed, as I said in the previous post, could well be that these inspirational figureheads emerge from Indian diaspora, these are still early days in the computer industry.

 

[Rana]

In England it has been corner shops.

 

[Napa]

In England it has been corner shops.

What about JLR, England's premier manufacturing outfit... the big cat... vroom vroom...

 

[Swashbuckler]

What about JLR, England's premier manufacturing outfit... the big cat... vroom vroom...

Sir Venkatraman Ramakrishnan as President of Royal Society more impressive than JLR, first non-white in that role.

 

[Napa]

Sir Venkatraman Ramakrishnan as President of Royal Society more impressive than JLR, first non-white in that role.

Kudos to Sir Venkatraman Ramakrishnan for doing all Tamizians and other Indians proud.

As for Indians owning JLR, that is a different sort of accomplishment, an apple and oranges comparison to the achievements of Ramakrishnan.

Shows the depth of talent in India that Ramakrishnan could not get into the IITs or Christian Medical College in Vellore, but was good enough for the Nobel. It shows the true greatness and lack of insecurity of Ramakrishnan to disclose this information.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...edical-entrance-tests/articleshow/5414148.cms

 

[Swashbuckler]

Shows the depth of talent in India that Ramakrishnan could not get into the IITs or Christian Medical College in Vellore, but was good enough for the Nobel. It shows the true greatness and lack of insecurity of Ramakrishnan to disclose this information.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...edical-entrance-tests/articleshow/5414148.cms

I think the importance of IITs and some of the top medical colleges are overrated, especially by the middle class. Life is a long journey, can't be defined by what you do at the age of 15-18, besides the current system of entrance exams, influence of coaching centres, poor primary/secondary education system etc mean that some children have a big head start over others. Can't forget the fact that some are late bloomers and show their best in their 20s, 30s, 40s, maybe even later. Life is like test cricket and others can make up later, look at the profiles of some of our ISRO bigwigs, many from humble origins.

 

[Slog]

1. I was replying to a post that suggested expat Indians are "worker drones". Indians who were born and grew up in India are definitely part of India's legacy to the modern world. Legacy of a country is created by its people.
2. Greene was definitely failing and was therefore replaced with Kurian.
https://www.crn.com/news/cloud/part...reene-failed-and-how-thomas-kurian-can-fix-it
3. If you think PayTM and Flipcart in any way compare to the cloud wars going on between Amazon, MS and Google, I don't have any time to discuss this with you.

1. They did that as American citizens and due to opportunities afforded by american degrees. They made a run for it out of India as soon as they could.

2. Interesting article but there’s also articles which say Greene took it forward and Kurian took it to next step.

3. The point is PayTM etc are indian startups which are indigenous to India. The revenue and the credit stays there whereas Google etc were already behemoths before guys like Pichai (who are American citizens anyway) took charge

 

[PakLFC]

Bollywood, Taj Mahal and incredible poverty like nowhere else.

 

[Napa]

Besides its historical contributions to mathematics and philosophy, India is today known of its top level managers in the largest market capitalization corporations.

Another contribution/legacy for India in the modern world is its pharma firms, which have been a fantastic boon for the poor in South Asia, Africa and other places. Take for example, the case of Dr. Muzaffar Ghanghro, a pediatrician in the city of Ratodero, Pakistan.

Dr. Muzaffar Ghanghro reportedly served many of the poorest families in Ratodero. One family who went to his clinic said they lost two children while four of their remaining kids contracted HIV.

“He said, ‘If you don’t want my treatment, go to another doctor’,” Imtiaz Jalbani, father of the six children treated by Ghanghro. “My wife and I had to starve ourselves to pay for the medicine."

Jalbani said he witnessed Ghanghro taking an old needle from a bin to use on his six-year-old son, who later became HIV-positive. However, after reporting the doctor’s activity, Ghanghro allegedly told the father of six was too poor to pay for a new needle.

https://www.medicaldaily.com/hiv-ou...preading-disease-900-children-pakistan-445023
https://www.foxnews.com/world/pakistani-children-hiv-positive-doctor-reuses-syringes

Any hope for Jalbani's remaining 4 children comes from the India pharma firms which have made affordable HIV medicines available to the poor around the world.

"Two-thirds of AIDS treatment drugs supplied globally by India"
https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...ed-globally-by-india/articleshow/69644768.cms

"How an Indian tycoon fought Big Pharma to sell AIDS drugs for $1 a day"
https://qz.com/india/1666032/how-indian-pharma-giant-cipla-made-aids-drugs-affordable/

"India to provide HIV treatment to all who need it"
https://www.unaids.org/en/resources/presscentre/featurestories/2017/may/20170501_veena

"A lifeline to treatment: the role of Indian generic manufacturers in supplying antiretroviral medicines to developing countries"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2944814/

"Authorities in Pakistan have begun a three year antiretroviral treatment programme, for which drugs are being imported from India"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1325171/

Really, the Nobel Committee are such losers for giving warmongers like Obama (part of group that started the Syrian, Libyan, Ukrainian and Yemen wars) the prize while ignoring worthy candidates like the Indian pharma industry.

[MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION] [MENTION=151383]Local.Dada[/MENTION] [MENTION=150746]SakunaPataka[/MENTION] [MENTION=134505]rhony[/MENTION] [MENTION=90888]Itachi[/MENTION] [MENTION=428]Romali_rotti[/MENTION]

 

[Knight_Rider]

Reminds me of the TV program Goodness, gracious Me!

 

[Knight_Rider]

https://youtu.be/hjWd9a8Ck8U

 

[Local.Dada]

1. They did that as American citizens and due to opportunities afforded by american degrees. They made a run for it out of India as soon as they could.

2. Interesting article but there’s also articles which say Greene took it forward and Kurian took it to next step.

3. The point is PayTM etc are indian startups which are indigenous to India. The revenue and the credit stays there whereas Google etc were already behemoths before guys like Pichai (who are American citizens anyway) took charge

They received scholarships and excelled at top of the line universities because they came from prestigious Indian technology and management institutes which are world renowned for producing some of the top of the line academics. Sure, they accepted American citizenship no one is claiming their individual success as India's, however the work ethic they show and the way they standout in academics in American universities, the strong foundation of that is attributed to India. You are confusing 2 different things between individual accomplishment and the legacy of the Indian education system and work ethic.

I believe you probably were very excited when you thought through your point but will help if you read through some of the context and not let your intellect waste.

Bose is founded by an Indian origin American as well. no one has ever attributed the success to either India or Indian education system, however the CEO's and top level management in the silicon valley have had their foundation in top of the line Indian institutes which translated to success in American academics and laid their pathways to individual success. Hope that makes sense.

For example the Pakistani entrepreneur Shahid Khan moved to USA at 16, but he worked hard in the USA and made it big. So you can say he was a product of the American system when it comes to entrepreneurship or even education. However you can attribute his work ethic to the immigrants from the SC and if you want Pakistan to claim credit for that, that is fair.

 

[Napa]

They received scholarships and excelled at top of the line universities because they came from prestigious Indian technology and management institutes which are world renowned for producing some of the top of the line academics. Sure, they accepted American citizenship no one is claiming their individual success as India's, however the work ethic they show and the way they standout in academics in American universities, the strong foundation of that is attributed to India. You are confusing 2 different things between individual accomplishment and the legacy of the Indian education system and work ethic.

I believe you probably were very excited when you thought through your point but will help if you read through some of the context and not let your intellect waste.

Bose is founded by an Indian origin American as well. no one has ever attributed the success to either India or Indian education system, however the CEO's and top level management in the silicon valley have had their foundation in top of the line Indian institutes which translated to success in American academics and laid their pathways to individual success. Hope that makes sense.

For example the Pakistani entrepreneur Shahid Khan moved to USA at 16, but he worked hard in the USA and made it big. So you can say he was a product of the American system when it comes to entrepreneurship or even education. However you can attribute his work ethic to the immigrants from the SC and if you want Pakistan to claim credit for that, that is fair.

I know a whole bunch of expat Indian engineering graduates in the US. Definitely 95% of them are very committed to India even though their passports may be US.

 

[Local.Dada]

I know a whole bunch of expat Indian engineering graduates in the US. Definitely 95% of them are very committed to India even though their passports may be US.

If these guys take up us citizen ship or go back to India it doesn’t really matter. What they decide to do with their lives is an individual choice.

However the premise of the thread is legacy of India. The context being that these guys (the ceos etc.) achieve success due to the strong fundamental education at a foundational level and work ethic they acquire when they are studying in india.

Indians and Chinese origin students both migrant and 2nd gen excel in academics in the USA atleast that is the generalization.

when it comes to migrants I always used to wonder how Indians are in top management positions compared to say Chinese. I guess that is probably due to Indians being more comfortable in communicating in English.

Surprisingly, Pakistanis acquired the same educational system from the British. As desis I would assume culturally it is the same parental pressure to focus on academics for them too .

However I see them mostly in Blue collar jobs.

I don’t mean that as disrespect. blue collar jobs requires great work ethic and I guess I acknowledged before that desis are known for their work ethic in general.

The population excuse doesn’t make sense because obviously after Indians and Chinese, you would expect other SC folk to be in the pecking order.

From academics perspective I have observed that most Pakistani students in the USA are from affluent families probably getting the degree for family prestige while Indian students you get all kinds of categories, the affluent type, the middle class guy trying to score an IT job and migrate or the guy from a humble background who has scored scholarships right from the ground level in India etc.

 

[Pakistanian]

If these guys take up us citizen ship or go back to India it doesn’t really matter. What they decide to do with their lives is an individual choice.

However the premise of the thread is legacy of India. The context being that these guys (the ceos etc.) achieve success due to the strong fundamental education at a foundational level and work ethic they acquire when they are studying in india.

Indians and Chinese origin students both migrant and 2nd gen excel in academics in the USA atleast that is the generalization.

when it comes to migrants I always used to wonder how Indians are in top management positions compared to say Chinese. I guess that is probably due to Indians being more comfortable in communicating in English.

Surprisingly, Pakistanis acquired the same educational system from the British. As desis I would assume culturally it is the same parental pressure to focus on academics for them too .

However I see them mostly in Blue collar jobs.

I don’t mean that as disrespect. blue collar jobs requires great work ethic and I guess I acknowledged before that desis are known for their work ethic in general.

The population excuse doesn’t make sense because obviously after Indians and Chinese, you would expect other SC folk to be in the pecking order.

From academics perspective I have observed that most Pakistani students in the USA are from affluent families probably getting the degree for family prestige while Indian students you get all kinds of categories, the affluent type, the middle class guy trying to score an IT job and migrate or the guy from a humble background who has scored scholarships right from the ground level in India etc.

lol at your generalizations. There are a lot of hardworking and intelligent Pakistanis here, we have even more Pakistanis in academia and the STEM field per capita than India considering how much smaller (in relative terms) the Pakistani community is over here - Pakistan has a much smaller population than India so obviously sends far fewer students. There are more Pakistani doctors, health professionals and engineers per capita than Indians lol. The richest South Asian person in America, Shahid Khan is Pakistani originally from Lahore. Even Donald Trump has always praised the Pakistani businessmen he's met in New York. Most of the Pakistani students here aren't from "affluent backgrounds" lol., most of them are just regular middle class Pakistanis from the urban areas like my father and uncles who are also successful and have Indians working under them in the major Fortune 500 companies they work for. Pakistanis may appear more "affluent" than Indians cause of our aesthetic, they're better dressed. They don't walk around campus in sandals and checkered shirts and have a more neutral accent compared to Indians .

Indians are mostly in blue collar jobs, they run grocery stores like the Patel Bros, drive trucks from coast to coast, some of them open a Dunkin Donuts or Subway but barely make more than 60k since the margins are so small in the food business. There are a lot Indians "working" as doctoral students here - they get paid barely $15/hr as TAs for 6 years or for however long they get their PhD then either return to India or become Professors or Lab superviser, they barely make 65k after a decade of experience. The highest paid professors I know are like 60 years old and still barely six figures.

I live in Texas where there are a lot of South Indian IT professionals, most of them work long hours and and get paid very little money working for Indian consulting companies aka visa mills over here, most of them are willing to to take lower pay and bad work conditions just so that they can get a greencard and avoid moving back to India where they believe the standard of living is FAR worse. A lot of them only hire other Indians, so you'll find a lot of them working for the same companies and in the same departments - they usually hire their own regardless of if they're actually qualified for the job. I know this one South Indian international who was telling me about how she landed a job straight out of graduation as a web developer for some "start up" and they "sponsored" her for an H1B loooool, web developers are a dime a dozen here and doesn't warrant an H1B but there are SO many people from India who are on that visa for the flimsiest reasons and the easiest jobs. I really commend you guys, y'all are a clever group of people that know how to game the system. I'm not hating, just admiring how y'all put your nation and community above ethics and the law.

 

[Itachi]

lol at your generalizations. There are a lot of hardworking and intelligent Pakistanis here, we have even more Pakistanis in academia and the STEM field per capita than India considering how much smaller (in relative terms) the Pakistani community is over here - Pakistan has a much smaller population than India so obviously sends far fewer students. There are more Pakistani doctors, health professionals and engineers per capita than Indians lol.

Atleast don't mention Pakistani doctors.

Saudi Arabia, Qatar middle east countries sacking Pakistani doctors because of incompetence in the professional system.

You have paediatric doctors who is spreading aids among kids.

Quantity doesn't mean quality.

 

[Pakistanian]

Atleast don't mention Pakistani doctors.

Saudi Arabia, Qatar middle east countries sacking Pakistani doctors because of incompetence in the professional system.

You have paediatric doctors who is spreading aids among kids.

Quantity doesn't mean quality.

Pakistani doctors are well respected in America, whether they're educated in America or Pakistan. You're spreading half truths and fake news. The Arab countries are only firing Pakistani doctors that are notcertified by the FCPS (which most Pakistani doctors are), [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] could go in to more detail about the specifics.

One doctor or an individual doesn't represent an entire community, there are many kuku doctors of from different countries. There was this one Indian doctor that was murdering his own patients in Australia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jayant_Patel

Pakistani-educated physicians make up one of the biggest cohorts of International Medical Graduates.The fact that they're licensed and board certified in the United States means they're at the standard to practice in this country. Apart from the US, in the UK - Khan is the most common last name amongst physicians working for the NHS. I'm sure the UK and the US have a much higher standard of who can practice medicine. In western countries you lose your license if you don't keep your certs up-to-date or break a law. The two of doctors in the links below lost their license, both them originate from the same country.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/doctor-license-relationsip-theepa-sundaralingam-1.4990346

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calg...ty-sex-assault-third-option-calgary-1.4960875

 

[Napa]

Indians are mostly in blue collar jobs, they run grocery stores like the Patel Bros, drive trucks from coast to coast, some of them open a Dunkin Donuts or Subway but barely make more than 60k since the margins are so small in the food business. There are a lot Indians "working" as doctoral students here - they get paid barely $15/hr as TAs for 6 years or for however long they get their PhD then either return to India or become Professors or Lab superviser, they barely make 65k after a decade of experience. The highest paid professors I know are like 60 years old and still barely six figures.

Your post is delusional and [MENTION=151383]Local.Dada[/MENTION] is correct. The following are figures from the US government.

S0201 SELECTED POPULATION PROFILE IN THE UNITED STATES more information
2016 American Community Survey 1-Year Estimates
https://factfinder.census.gov/faces/tableservices/jsf/pages/productview.xhtml?src=bkmk

Estimate; INCOME IN THE PAST 12 MONTHS (IN 2016 INFLATION-ADJUSTED DOLLARS) - Households - Median household income (dollars)
Indian Americans: 110026
Indian Americans alone or in any combination: 106837
Pakistani Americans: 73157
Pakistani Americans alone or in any combination: 72389

Estimate; POVERTY RATES FOR FAMILIES AND PEOPLE FOR WHOM POVERTY STATUS IS DETERMINED - All families

Indian Americans: 4.7%
Indian Americans alone or in any combination: 5%
Pakistani Americans: 4.7%
Pakistani Americans alone or in any combination: 5%

Indian Americans are economically the most successful group in the US.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income

 

[Napa]

Estimate; POVERTY RATES FOR FAMILIES AND PEOPLE FOR WHOM POVERTY STATUS IS DETERMINED - All families

<b>Indian Americans: 4.7%
Indian Americans alone or in any combination: 5%
Pakistani Americans: 13.1%
Pakistani Americans alone or in any combination: 12.8%</b>

Corrected

 

[Itachi]

Pakistani doctors are well respected in America, whether they're educated in America or Pakistan. You're spreading half truths and fake news. The Arab countries are only firing Pakistani doctors that are notcertified by the FCPS (which most Pakistani doctors are), [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] could go in to more detail about the specifics.

FCPS got derecognised in middle east. What was the reason?

It happens when the authorities don't believe the pass out from the said system because they don't trust the system that it is upto standard.

Your health system is a mess where two boards are fighting with each other in order to become the sole board to provide licenses.

Are you really proud of it?

You are living in US getting treated by professionals who are passed from superior system. You have the privilege.

The common Pakistani people don't have that privilege as you. They don't know whether a doctor is coming from a competent system or not. You have gully doctors who doesn't have a degree yet practicing medicines.

At least have some sympathy for the common people and don't put out Pakistani health system as one of the qualified ones.

 

[Pakistanian]

FCPS got derecognised in middle east. What was the reason?

It happens when the authorities don't believe the pass out from the said system because they don't trust the system that it is upto standard.

Your health system is a mess where two boards are fighting with each other in order to become the sole board to provide licenses.

Are you really proud of it?

You are living in US getting treated by professionals who are passed from superior system. You have the privilege.

The common Pakistani people don't have that privilege as you. They don't know whether a doctor is coming from a competent system or not. You have gully doctors who doesn't have a degree yet practicing medicines.

At least have some sympathy for the common people and don't put out Pakistani health system as one of the qualified ones.

Dude stop spread fake news, if you read the thread where you got this info from then you'd know that your wrong. [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] can answer your questions about quality of physicians in Pakistan and about the the what happened in the middle east.

 

[Itachi]

Dude stop spread fake news, if you read the thread where you got this info from then you'd know that your wrong. [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] can answer your questions about quality of physicians in Pakistan and about the the what happened in the middle east.

Let's say the information I provided is half truth.

Then tell us the actual truth with details. When you claim I am wrong, isn't it your responsibility to show the correct statement?

 

[guvi]

zero sunya cipher nothing nada... we are a bunch of waste fellows...

now go home and sleep tight...

 

[Mamoon]

[MENTION=90888]Itachi[/MENTION] [MENTION=142256]Pakistanian[/MENTION]

The Middle-East did not reject FCPS doctors. They rejected Pakistani MS/MD holders. FCPS holders are very competent and qualified, but MD/MS holders are not. Doctors who fail to pass FCPS exams end up with MS/MD degrees.

 

[Local.Dada]

lol at your generalizations. There are a lot of hardworking and intelligent Pakistanis here, we have even more Pakistanis in academia and the STEM field per capita than India considering how much smaller (in relative terms) the Pakistani community is over here - Pakistan has a much smaller population than India so obviously sends far fewer students. There are more Pakistani doctors, health professionals and engineers per capita than Indians lol. The richest South Asian person in America, Shahid Khan is Pakistani originally from Lahore. Even Donald Trump has always praised the Pakistani businessmen he's met in New York. Most of the Pakistani students here aren't from "affluent backgrounds" lol., most of them are just regular middle class Pakistanis from the urban areas like my father and uncles who are also successful and have Indians working under them in the major Fortune 500 companies they work for. Pakistanis may appear more "affluent" than Indians cause of our aesthetic, they're better dressed. They don't walk around campus in sandals and checkered shirts and have a more neutral accent compared to Indians .

Indians are mostly in blue collar jobs, they run grocery stores like the Patel Bros, drive trucks from coast to coast, some of them open a Dunkin Donuts or Subway but barely make more than 60k since the margins are so small in the food business. There are a lot Indians "working" as doctoral students here - they get paid barely $15/hr as TAs for 6 years or for however long they get their PhD then either return to India or become Professors or Lab superviser, they barely make 65k after a decade of experience. The highest paid professors I know are like 60 years old and still barely six figures.

I live in Texas where there are a lot of South Indian IT professionals, most of them work long hours and and get paid very little money working for Indian consulting companies aka visa mills over here, most of them are willing to to take lower pay and bad work conditions just so that they can get a greencard and avoid moving back to India where they believe the standard of living is FAR worse. A lot of them only hire other Indians, so you'll find a lot of them working for the same companies and in the same departments - they usually hire their own regardless of if they're actually qualified for the job. I know this one South Indian international who was telling me about how she landed a job straight out of graduation as a web developer for some "start up" and they "sponsored" her for an H1B loooool, web developers are a dime a dozen here and doesn't warrant an H1B but there are SO many people from India who are on that visa for the flimsiest reasons and the easiest jobs. I really commend you guys, y'all are a clever group of people that know how to game the system. I'm not hating, just admiring how y'all put your nation and community above ethics and the law.

I am glad that 2nd gen Pakistanis are taking up medicine etc. that is a huge upgrade overt he reputation they have been acquiring in Europe and other places.

Well the stereotype is Indian doctor and not Pakistani. Sure you know a couple of Pakistani doctors where you live but that doesn't make it the worldview

Now coming to Dunkin Donuts and Subway, You need at least half a million in capital to set those businesses. Plenty invest in the franchise model. That is very smart if you ask me.If they are raising half a million means they should have at least a significant net worth.

I agree with you on the visa mills part. However the fact that they get the visa due to strong academics and technical foundation. If you go back to the earlier posts, it was never about individual choices of where someone wants to make a living but the legacy of having a strong fundamental foundation when it comes to education that most Indians possess.

As far as Shahid Khan example goes, if anything he is an example of the American dream, he was not a product of Pakistani education system. That struggle he had to endure early on working in gas stations etc is no different from a so called Indian IT worker drone putting in all the hours to eventually achieve the American dream. Again as I said before people from SC have a great work ethic and sure Pakistanis can be proud of that.

There are thousands of stories of a son of an Auto driver, daughter of a maid,son of a fisherman from India etc who break through the ranks,earn scholarships and make it big in the USA. I don't recollect hearing such stories about any Pakistani migrants who broke through the system in their own country. This part I agree may be I am in a bubble but please feel free to share,always in the mood for heartwarming stories.

 

[Itachi]

[MENTION=90888]Itachi[/MENTION] [MENTION=142256]Pakistanian[/MENTION]

The Middle-East did not reject FCPS doctors. They rejected Pakistani MS/MD holders. FCPS holders are very competent and qualified, but MD/MS holders are not. Doctors who fail to pass FCPS exams end up with MS/MD degrees.

Does this M.S. and M.D. degree is same as in India or equivalent to MBBS in India?

 

[Cypher]

Does this M.S. and M.D. degree is same as in India or equivalent to MBBS in India?

You do realise that MBBS is not an "indian" degree.
MBBS is MBBS there's no "equivalent" to it.
In Pakistan it's called MBBS too

 

[Slog]

Does this M.S. and M.D. degree is same as in India or equivalent to MBBS in India?

These degree holders aren’t considered as good doctors even in Pakistan.

 

[Itachi]

You do realise that MBBS is not an "indian" degree.
MBBS is MBBS there's no "equivalent" to it.
In Pakistan it's called MBBS too

In russia and ukraine, M.D. is equivalent to MBBS in india which means, after 5/6 years, you'll get M.D. degree in Russia where as you will get MBBS in india.

 

[Swashbuckler]

Buddhism should be top in terms of influence, moreover a birthplace to some major religions and philosophies.

Concept of zero by Aryabhata...major invention because of its central role in mathematics.

Chess during Gupta empire, my favorite invention from India

Yoga, languages

Maths, science, medicine we had some greats in these fields in ancient times. If you limit yourself to maths, there will be a few ancient Indian mathematicians in the all time greats discussion, might require a separate thread for that.

Accomplishments in civil engineering, art, architecture, metallurgy, culture etc but all civilizations had their unique versions.

If you talk about that era (6th-7th century India) there are at least 2 mathematicians who will be counted among the greatest ever in that highly competitive field. By greatest ever I mean in the same breath as Gauss, Newton, Euler, Ramanujan, Fermat.

Aryabhata
Brahmagupta

Even Panini (1000 years before the Guptas, from Gandhara, modern day Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]) wasn't just a grammarian

Fast forward to 12th century and we also have Madhava and Bhaskaracharya.

Their inventions weren't trivial, legends like Gauss, Galois, Leibniz have taken inspiration from their body of work, carried forward their mathematical theorems and methods.

These weren't the only ancient mathematicians, we can not underplay the significance of scholars from that era just because some University professor can crack them today, today's greats stand on the shoulders of giants of that era.

Chess (Chaturanga) was invented in the Guptan age, but the game has evolved and become almost unrecognizable today. Doesn't mean we underrate the pioneers. What if I told you there were puzzles which couldn't be solved by the best of humanity for 1000 years? Since I was talking about the Islamic Golden Age in my previous post a while back allow me to present an interesting piece of information. A few years ago I came across the profile of an Arab (or Persian/Turkic, unsure of origin) chess player from the 9th century, Abu Bakr bin Yahya al-Suli who was employed in the services of the Caliph of Baghdad. A legendary player of shatranj (different rules compared to modern day chess) in that era who used to give blindfold simuls. He wrote the Kitab Al-Shitranj dealing with chess strategy and one of the more important historical sources on the early history of chess. It had a problem known as 'Al-Suli’s Diamond', a puzzle that went unsolved for more than 1000 years. The problem was cracked by Soviet GM Yuri Averbakh in the 1980s. And this wasn't the only such puzzle which eluded many for centuries, there are other examples from other empires including Indian ones. If you give me a choice to live a princely life in the Mughal era or as a commoner in the services of Al-Suli I would choose the latter, that is the kind of legacy that attracts me.

Similarly in mathematics quite a few inventions made in 6th century engaged the best of minds for over a millennium. Today those concepts are covered in UG maths courses or even high school (eg Archimedes, Euclid) but that doesn't diminish the greatness of our predecessors who didn't have tools and knowledge base we have today a button click away.

I like your theory about the impact of British competing with Mughals being a reason, interesting take.



That is applicable for much of the Northern part of the subcontinent, in physical terms we have lost a lot of heritage. This could be because of the never ending battery of invasions right from the ancient period during Cyrus the Great's (Achaemenid Empire) reign, before that the Aryans (if one believes the Aryan Migration theory which is still a contentious issue). Greeks, Parthians, Scythians, Bactrians, Huns, Persians, Turks, Arabs, Mongols and many more. Each ethnic group contributed to the making of Indian culture but because of the non stop wars and unrest a lot of heritage must have been lost. South India is different, especially a state like Tamil Nadu where architecture from over 2000 years back stands tall even now, the Europeans who finally got a hold over our region were good at preservation of monuments.

North wasn't so lucky, also architecture can't peak without calm and order. Many of the invaders killed local artisans and their patrons, or took them back to their native lands. It is never easy to let the creative juices flow in a tumultuous atmosphere, something that is holding back South Asia even today. Amir Timur caused havoc in Northern India in 1400, the Tughlaq dynasty ruled over that area and was the unfortunate victim. After Timur left there was no architectural symbol of importance in North for the next 200 years. The Sayyids and Lodis who followed the Tughlaqs had nothing to show either, do observe that lacuna in art, architecture, literature in that period. Since Mughals had a long uninterrupted reign (contrast that to their Islamic predecessors, various dynasties of Delhi Sultanate) sans invasions which also saw law and order as well as strong central administration they were able to come up with rich culture.

Luckily for them when they were supplanted by the British their cultural legacy was left intact. In fact the Brits went a step further and preserved that heritage, conducted research, found many gems that were hidden away for many years. Sir Alexander Cunningham founded the Archaeological Survey of India for archaeological research and the conservation and preservation of cultural monuments in the country. If Mughal monuments are in fine shape today we should also thank the Britishers who were mature enough to recognize the importance besides bringing in their expertise in science and technology to increase the shelf life. We give the white sahibs a lot of flak, some of the criticism if justified but no denying they were equally responsible for discovering our own legacy, our ancient past. It was also their commitment, scientific spirit and genius that brought to light one of the oldest and mightiest civilizations much before the Iron Age (Harappan Civilization), something we had no knowledge of then. Amidst all the doom and gloom, whining and moaning about the Raj, credit where due .



Expanding on the previous point unfortunately not much of physical evidence remains of that empire, most of it lost through time. Mostly what we know about them are from literary, epigraphical and
numismatic sources. The famous Chinese traveler Fahien, who visited India during the reign of
Chandragupta II is another important source of information about the Gupta empire.

Since you are a Brit if you plan to go to Birmingham Museum do check out the Sultangunj copper statue of Buddha, a shining representative of craftsmanship then. More than their pieces of architecture (chiefly temples that aren't in the best of shape because of Hun invasions) I would like to emphasize the metallurgical achievement of that empire. They commissioned plenty of Iron pillars, one of the more famous ones is the Delhi iron pillar near Qutb Minar, free of rust despite being completely exposed to the vagaries of weather gods for 1600 years. It continues to befuddle scholars even today. If you are familiar with the Ajantha Caves (UNESCO World Heritage Site) the mural paintings were done in the Guptan age, they reached their highest form.

When it comes to intellectual pursuits that was our "Golden Age". I am sure you will find more info on the net but I will try to highlight some of the achievements. Since I am not a historian I will miss many, especially those names that don't roll of my tongue easily.

Sanskrit literature reached its highest form, majority of the great works we see now are a product of that era. We had Navratnas (9 gems) in Chandragupta Vikramaditya's court. One of them was Kalidas who was famous for the play 'Shakuntala', our country's name 'Bharat' comes from there, in case you are wondering Bharat was the son of the titular character. He also wrote many classical epics of great importance to our culture. Vishakadatta, Sudraka, Dandin, Bharavi, Amarasimha etc were some big names in literature but I think the details will bore you. To keep things short, myself being a Hindu who believes that most of our religious beliefs are based on mythology and not history the present versions of Ramayan and Mahabharat were a product of this age and truly outstanding literary achievements. Both the epics transcend boundaries, when you talk about the classical epics these two will find spots alongside Gilgamesh, Odyssey, Iliad, Silappatikaram, Shahnameh etc. The Puranas in their present version were also composed during this period, they are Hindu religious texts.

In maths apart from the couple of names I mentioned in the earlier post, there was Varahamihira who was an expert in astronomy, also dabbled in maths and physics. Their scholarly works were translated to Arabic and Persian during the Islamic Golden Age, the leading intellectuals of the Muslim world learnt and added their inputs to these works before the knowledge went to the West. Just like Guptan India, there were some big names in the scientific field patronized by the caliphs, for instance Khwarizmi who was honoured by Google Doodle recently. He cites the Indian scholars extensively in his works.

In the field of medicine Vaghbhata lived during this period, one of the developers of Ayurveda, a traditional system of medicine. Unani medicine too has been influenced by his texts along with some other systems.

Hope these highlights weren't too boring .

[MENTION=150009]Knight_Rider[/MENTION] don't remember the flow of this thread but quoted parts are mostly about Guptas, I will probably have to go through all the posts to cut out irrelevant bits. No time now, so expect some incoherence. If I write some essay about early Indian philosophies, Mauryas, Harsha, South India, Palas, Pratiharas etc I will remember to tag you. Kerala school of mathematics itself will be a long piece.

 

[amax]

ancient india , iran , china, egypt used to contribute a lot , but after renaissance of Europe , every thing looks pale in front of it , china is finding a way back but rest have lost there way

 

[amax]

I am glad that 2nd gen Pakistanis are taking up medicine etc. that is a huge upgrade overt he reputation they have been acquiring in Europe and other places.

Well the stereotype is Indian doctor and not Pakistani. Sure you know a couple of Pakistani doctors where you live but that doesn't make it the worldview

Now coming to Dunkin Donuts and Subway, You need at least half a million in capital to set those businesses. Plenty invest in the franchise model. That is very smart if you ask me.If they are raising half a million means they should have at least a significant net worth.

I agree with you on the visa mills part. However the fact that they get the visa due to strong academics and technical foundation. If you go back to the earlier posts, it was never about individual choices of where someone wants to make a living but the legacy of having a strong fundamental foundation when it comes to education that most Indians possess.

As far as Shahid Khan example goes, if anything he is an example of the American dream, he was not a product of Pakistani education system. That struggle he had to endure early on working in gas stations etc is no different from a so called Indian IT worker drone putting in all the hours to eventually achieve the American dream. Again as I said before people from SC have a great work ethic and sure Pakistanis can be proud of that.

There are thousands of stories of a son of an Auto driver, daughter of a maid,son of a fisherman from India etc who break through the ranks,earn scholarships and make it big in the USA. I don't recollect hearing such stories about any Pakistani migrants who broke through the system in their own country. This part I agree may be I am in a bubble but please feel free to share,always in the mood for heartwarming stories.

indian american success in USA is mostly on the basis of acadmeic oriented middle class south indian brahmins , Pakistan lost its middle class to partition(hindu sindhis and punjabis ), two most populous groups of pakistan : Punjabis and pashtuns were either into agriculture and militrary , there was a huge void if not for migration of urdu speaking muslim elite from delhi and lucknow, beareucratic structure of pakistan would have been collapsed. Middle class in Pakistan is very new phenomena , labour exchange program of za bhutto in 1970 with gulf and europe , resulted in returning of remittences and creation of middle class. You will see its results in coming decade.

 

[mustang]

indian american success in USA is mostly on the basis of acadmeic oriented middle class south indian brahmins , Pakistan lost its middle class to partition(hindu sindhis and punjabis ), two most populous groups of pakistan : Punjabis and pashtuns were either into agriculture and militrary , there was a huge void if not for migration of urdu speaking muslim elite from delhi and lucknow, beareucratic structure of pakistan would have been collapsed. Middle class in Pakistan is very new phenomena , labour exchange program of za bhutto in 1970 with gulf and europe , resulted in returning of remittences and creation of middle class. You will see its results in coming decade.

Good point. I did not realize Pakistan lost it's middle class due to partition. My understand is that the economic side of Pakistan's creational charter by itself espouses a bigger divide between rich and poor through continued sustenance of zamindari system. India OTOH executed land reforms, abolished the feudal zamindari system thus reducing gap between rich and poor. Middle class exists and continues to do so only when gap between rich and poor is optimal.

In essence my take is that Pakistan may have lost some of it's demographic middle class during partition but they certainly made it a LOT worse through feudalstic governance policies over 70+ years.

Question of my ignorance - how did Pakistan lose it's middle class during partition? Did they not have middle class Sindhi/Punjabi/Pashtun muslims before 1947? Why not?

 

[mustang]

indian american success in USA is mostly on the basis of acadmeic oriented middle class south indian brahmins , Pakistan lost its middle class to partition(hindu sindhis and punjabis ), two most populous groups of pakistan : Punjabis and pashtuns were either into agriculture and militrary , there was a huge void if not for migration of urdu speaking muslim elite from delhi and lucknow, beareucratic structure of pakistan would have been collapsed. Middle class in Pakistan is very new phenomena , labour exchange program of za bhutto in 1970 with gulf and europe , resulted in returning of remittences and creation of middle class. You will see its results in coming decade.

I touched on importance of knowledge capital in another thread and adding that here again. Many people here seem to think economy is a function of industry segments, infrastructure projects, agricultural lands, and $ flowing as a result. Well the one BIG factor behind all of that is people. Specifically the capabilities of the grey matter contained within the heads of the people within that entity ... aka knowledge capital. While Pakistan is much better than the pond **** of knowledge capital (think Afghanistan, Sudan, South Sudan ...) they still have a long way to go when it comes to translating knowledge capital into economic output and eventually their soft power. They need to invest in a network of educational institutions.

Where are Pakistan's equivalent networks of IITs IIMs and NITs? How much resources is Pakistan dedicating for knowledge capital from grassroots level to advanced degrees? Let alone scores of other institutions that Indians have. Granted I feel that the Indians hype up their IITs than what it is due and those are still nowhere near comparable as what we have here in the US but ... combine the Indians' educational network, with a middle class population, non-feudal system giving you opportunities for economic freedom ... now you have a non-negligible section of population with appreciable accomplishments.

Hate to give a very surface level comparison but FWIW consider this ... look up Indian CEOs of all major global corporations in recent times (IBM is also having an Indian CEO now). Pakistan's population is 1/4 of India so should they not deserve at least 25% such Pakistan origin global CEOs of major firms? Where are they? I'm not even getting into high end finance (venture Capital, Private Equity, Hedge Funds) which control all those global CEOs. If you pull up the managers behind all these high end finance firms you can see many Indians behind that. Where are the equivalent 25% of similar Pakistani origin high end finance managers?

Again - I'm not suggesting that Pakistanis are less competent (far from it), I'm showing you the data and the interpretation of why Pakistan's system is stacked against Pakistanis' knowledge potential as of now.

 

[sjahmed23]

I touched on importance of knowledge capital in another thread and adding that here again. Many people here seem to think economy is a function of industry segments, infrastructure projects, agricultural lands, and $ flowing as a result. Well the one BIG factor behind all of that is people. Specifically the capabilities of the grey matter contained within the heads of the people within that entity ... aka knowledge capital. While Pakistan is much better than the pond **** of knowledge capital (think Afghanistan, Sudan, South Sudan ...) they still have a long way to go when it comes to translating knowledge capital into economic output and eventually their soft power. They need to invest in a network of educational institutions.

Where are Pakistan's equivalent networks of IITs IIMs and NITs? How much resources is Pakistan dedicating for knowledge capital from grassroots level to advanced degrees? Let alone scores of other institutions that Indians have. Granted I feel that the Indians hype up their IITs than what it is due and those are still nowhere near comparable as what we have here in the US but ... combine the Indians' educational network, with a middle class population, non-feudal system giving you opportunities for economic freedom ... now you have a non-negligible section of population with appreciable accomplishments.

Hate to give a very surface level comparison but FWIW consider this ... look up Indian CEOs of all major global corporations in recent times (IBM is also having an Indian CEO now). Pakistan's population is 1/4 of India so should they not deserve at least 25% such Pakistan origin global CEOs of major firms? Where are they? I'm not even getting into high end finance (venture Capital, Private Equity, Hedge Funds) which control all those global CEOs. If you pull up the managers behind all these high end finance firms you can see many Indians behind that. Where are the equivalent 25% of similar Pakistani origin high end finance managers?

Again - I'm not suggesting that Pakistanis are less competent (far from it), I'm showing you the data and the interpretation of why Pakistan's system is stacked against Pakistanis' knowledge potential as of now.

First Pakistanis lost alot because of 9/11, our students still have difficulty getting american visas. Second, Indians produce workers who will do whatever the boss tells, Pakistanis on the other hand don't like working for others. Most of my Pakistani friends who work in wall street making a decent living don't have any aspiration to climb the corporate ladder because it's not a lifestyle they want. They would rather have open their own business in 2-3 years.

Facts, India still does not have a single reputable software or hardware company even though Indians will talk all day about how their "IT" industry has grown. Tell your IITs to work on that rather than producing corporate slaves for western companies.

 

[Kroll]

Cheap IT services, unending supply of medical staff and call centre scams.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I touched on importance of knowledge capital in another thread and adding that here again. Many people here seem to think economy is a function of industry segments, infrastructure projects, agricultural lands, and $ flowing as a result. Well the one BIG factor behind all of that is people. Specifically the capabilities of the grey matter contained within the heads of the people within that entity ... aka knowledge capital. While Pakistan is much better than the pond **** of knowledge capital (think Afghanistan, Sudan, South Sudan ...) they still have a long way to go when it comes to translating knowledge capital into economic output and eventually their soft power. They need to invest in a network of educational institutions.

Where are Pakistan's equivalent networks of IITs IIMs and NITs? How much resources is Pakistan dedicating for knowledge capital from grassroots level to advanced degrees? Let alone scores of other institutions that Indians have. Granted I feel that the Indians hype up their IITs than what it is due and those are still nowhere near comparable as what we have here in the US but ... combine the Indians' educational network, with a middle class population, non-feudal system giving you opportunities for economic freedom ... now you have a non-negligible section of population with appreciable accomplishments.

Hate to give a very surface level comparison but FWIW consider this ... look up Indian CEOs of all major global corporations in recent times (IBM is also having an Indian CEO now). Pakistan's population is 1/4 of India so should they not deserve at least 25% such Pakistan origin global CEOs of major firms? Where are they? I'm not even getting into high end finance (venture Capital, Private Equity, Hedge Funds) which control all those global CEOs. If you pull up the managers behind all these high end finance firms you can see many Indians behind that. Where are the equivalent 25% of similar Pakistani origin high end finance managers?

Again - I'm not suggesting that Pakistanis are less competent (far from it), I'm showing you the data and the interpretation of why Pakistan's system is stacked against Pakistanis' knowledge potential as of now.

The topic was about Indian contribution to the world and you have ended up talking about Pakistan quite a lot again, even your highlights in blue font are fixated on Pakistan. I can't believe that is healthy.

 

[mustang]

The topic was about Indian contribution to the world and you have ended up talking about Pakistan quite a lot again, even your highlights in blue font are fixated on Pakistan. I can't believe that is healthy.

I responded to another post to highlight the difference on why Pakistan does not have an equivalent of what India has (even after adjusting for population). Your concern for my health is touching but perhaps try following the context of the conversation before making blanket statements.

 

[mustang]

First Pakistanis lost alot because of 9/11, our students still have difficulty getting american visas. Second, Indians produce workers who will do whatever the boss tells, Pakistanis on the other hand don't like working for others. Most of my Pakistani friends who work in wall street making a decent living don't have any aspiration to climb the corporate ladder because it's not a lifestyle they want. They would rather have open their own business in 2-3 years.

Facts, India still does not have a single reputable software or hardware company even though Indians will talk all day about how their "IT" industry has grown. Tell your IITs to work on that rather than producing corporate slaves for western companies.

Yep, the 9/11 side effects is unfortunate for so any of the genuine Pakistani student aspirants. I do agree. Rest of your post seems to have a "You versus Me" kinda tone and that was not my original intent. Relax - because that is not my intent. Also they ain't "my IITs" because I'm not Indian.

Blanket statement like "Pakistanis dont like working for others" is just inaccurate. Being an employee in a company is not servitude but also exemplifies collaboration, team spirit, and showing enough leadership to rise through the ranks. Guess who else needs to have these attributes? SOLDIERS. I personally know multiple instances of Pakistan's army displaying all of the above in a good way. If you are hinting at being a 7/11 or gas station entrepreneur is always better than being a corporate executive leader then that is surely inaccurate, right?

Of course, the Indians do not have a world level product and their processes+systems lack quite a few attributes. It is easier to make fun of the neighbor's "bad car" when we have no car to speak of, right?

The Indians' IITs and IIMs are producing corporate leaders, entrepreneurs, and investors. If you are claiming that Pakistanis have more "jazba" (right context for using that word?) and are better off being rebel individuals and are generalizing ALL Pakistanis to be that way, and extrapolating a specific human personality trait to 300 Million people then that is highly inaccurate.

 

[mustang]

First Pakistanis lost alot because of 9/11, our students still have difficulty getting american visas. Second, Indians produce workers who will do whatever the boss tells, Pakistanis on the other hand don't like working for others. Most of my Pakistani friends who work in wall street making a decent living don't have any aspiration to climb the corporate ladder because it's not a lifestyle they want. They would rather have open their own business in 2-3 years.

Facts, India still does not have a single reputable software or hardware company even though Indians will talk all day about how their "IT" industry has grown. Tell your IITs to work on that rather than producing corporate slaves for western companies.

Yep, the 9/11 side effects is unfortunate for so any of the genuine Pakistani student aspirants. I do agree. Rest of your post seems to have a "You versus Me" kinda tone and that was not my original intent. Relax - because that is not my intent. Also they ain't "my IITs" because I'm not Indian.

Blanket statement like "Pakistanis dont like working for others" is just inaccurate. Being an employee in a company is not servitude but also exemplifies collaboration, team spirit, and showing enough leadership to rise through the ranks. Guess who else needs to have these attributes? SOLDIERS. I personally know multiple instances of Pakistan's army displaying all of the above in a good way. If you are hinting at being a 7/11 or gas station entrepreneur is always better than being a corporate executive leader then that is surely inaccurate, right?

Of course, the Indians do not have a world level product and their processes+systems lack quite a few attributes. It is easier to make fun of the neighbor's "bad car" when we have no car to speak of, right?

The Indians' IITs and IIMs are producing corporate leaders, entrepreneurs, and investors. If you are claiming that Pakistanis have more "jazba" (right context for using that word?) and are better off being rebel individuals and are generalizing ALL Pakistanis to be that way, and extrapolating a specific human personality trait to 300 Million people then that is highly inaccurate.

 

[sjahmed23]

Yep, the 9/11 side effects is unfortunate for so any of the genuine Pakistani student aspirants. I do agree. Rest of your post seems to have a "You versus Me" kinda tone and that was not my original intent. Relax - because that is not my intent. Also they ain't "my IITs" because I'm not Indian.

Blanket statement like "Pakistanis dont like working for others" is just inaccurate. Being an employee in a company is not servitude but also exemplifies collaboration, team spirit, and showing enough leadership to rise through the ranks. Guess who else needs to have these attributes? SOLDIERS. I personally know multiple instances of Pakistan's army displaying all of the above in a good way. If you are hinting at being a 7/11 or gas station entrepreneur is always better than being a corporate executive leader then that is surely inaccurate, right?

Of course, the Indians do not have a world level product and their processes+systems lack quite a few attributes. It is easier to make fun of the neighbor's "bad car" when we have no car to speak of, right?

The Indians' IITs and IIMs are producing corporate leaders, entrepreneurs, and investors. If you are claiming that Pakistanis have more "jazba" (right context for using that word?) and are better off being rebel individuals and are generalizing ALL Pakistanis to be that way, and extrapolating a specific human personality trait to 300 Million people then that is highly inaccurate.

It's easier to make fun of neighbor who has no car but pretends to drive one. They all came here, got educated in American institutes then became leaders. What does IIT have to do with that? If IIT was really something those guys wouldn't need to come to America, but instead stayed in India to find the next trillion dollar company, but we don't see that do we?

I'm simply claiming Pakistanis don't have the sheepish mentality found next door, we're free thinkers and do what we want to do in our lives. If India thinking exporting labor and it's best and brightest minds is some sort of achievement then by all means, but don't bring in Pakistan into it when we never really cared to do that.

 

[mustang]

It's easier to make fun of neighbor who has no car but pretends to drive one. They all came here, got educated in American institutes then became leaders. What does IIT have to do with that? If IIT was really something those guys wouldn't need to come to America, but instead stayed in India to find the next trillion dollar company, but we don't see that do we?

I'm simply claiming Pakistanis don't have the sheepish mentality found next door, we're free thinkers and do what we want to do in our lives. If India thinking exporting labor and it's best and brightest minds is some sort of achievement then by all means, but don't bring in Pakistan into it when we never really cared to do that.

Sorry but it seems like you are saying things for the sake of responding or having the last word - maybe you did not intend it that way.

#1 - Being successful as an employee is not a negative thing by itself. No need to use the word "sheepish". Majority percentage of Pakistanis in this very forum will be employees themselves.

#2 - Claiming ALL Pakistanis are in a certain way is generalization to suit your point. We know that massive level generalization involving 100s of millions of people is not accurate.

#3 - Going by your own point - look at the number of Indian origin founders of companies (people who started the businesses and hence not "sheep" by your definition. You do not have the equivalent population adjusted Pakistani origin FOUNDERS of companies. Ask yourself why that is so? Do you think being a CEO of Google/Microsoft/IBM/Mastercard/Pepsi etc is being a "Sheep"? Do you think being partners in prominent venture capital or private equity firms that control many mid-market CEOs is being a "sheep"? Do you think running hedge funds taking active positions in boards of publicly listed firms is being a "sheep"? I think such terms may originate from historically inaccurate generalizations that some Pakistanis may have about themselves and about Indians (opinions without self awareness IMO).

#4 - Exporting labor is not an achievement of India but consistent showing of bright minds getting into top echelons of businesses bears some testament to their education system, does it not? Surely you can also see that trend? I'm talking about the investments they have made into their education system (which is not world class mind you) but still does prove itself to be multiple layers above Pakistan - their twin country of 1947. India's IITs/IIMs/NITs and whatever else have helped them create that educational infrastructure to have a semblance of competitive knowledge capital.

"but don't bring in Pakistan into it when we never really cared to do that." - You are failing to grasp the macroeconomic point here. Reality - You MUST care about that for the sake of your country's progress. It is proven today that countries without good knowledge capital in their biggest asset (people) will regress relative to those who have that. Saying not caring to do that is basically saying that you are happy to be intellectually backward compared to other countries. Why would you want that?


To your point about why are India's bright minds going to the US if IITs are so good - you are taking things into isolation. Of course the US and western countries overall are better to live than a place like India so as individuals people will want better opportunities for themselves and they will leave if given a chance. My point was about comparing+contrasting India's and Pakistan's knowledge capital (aka educational) systems alone.