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What is Pakistan's economic solution?

Major

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Reserves have been depleted. PTI failed to do anything, PDM came with a promise that they will fix it and as the year ends we are no better off.

Now talks of technocrat govt taking place which we have seen fail in the past. PTI saying general elections is the solution.

What you think needs to be done?
 
They did a massive blunder by removing Miftah and brining Dar who looks to be a fraud.

Unless China, ME and IMF writes off the debt or gives 6-8 billion USD with no immediate payment terms , it might be difficult to avoid a default.
 
Reserves have been depleted. PTI failed to do anything, PDM came with a promise that they will fix it and as the year ends we are no better off.

Now talks of technocrat govt taking place which we have seen fail in the past. PTI saying general elections is the solution.

What you think needs to be done?

Thing is - how will Pakistan even find the money to hold the general elections?
 
Thing is - how will Pakistan even find the money to hold the general elections?

its the foreign reserves that is an issue.

Dont think our elections are held on foreign currency
 
its the foreign reserves that is an issue.

Dont think our elections are held on foreign currency

Duh, what are you on about? They are all connected. If Pakistan was roiling in domestic currency, they would have converted them to dollars to ward off this crisis.

Basically Pakistan has no money - domestic or foreign.
 
Duh, what are you on about? They are all connected. If Pakistan was roiling in domestic currency, they would have converted them to dollars to ward off this crisis.

Basically Pakistan has no money - domestic or foreign.

domestic currency isn't the issue here.

convert what with dollars? The country doesnt have any dollars inside the country to convert to. DOllars come from exports. Pakistan cant even do imports if they dont have the dollars.

getting elections done is not that big of an issue. What do you think, the govt doesnt have carores to spend? They have million of rupees account for as budgets in the country lol
 
Stop playing with the country. The country was doing a lot better 9 months ago. Who is responsible for this? This should be looked into by an independent body.
 
Reserves have been depleted. PTI failed to do anything, PDM came with a promise that they will fix it and as the year ends we are no better off.

Now talks of technocrat govt taking place which we have seen fail in the past. PTI saying general elections is the solution.

What you think needs to be done?

Yes bring in technocrats because PDM has destroyed the economy with their incompetence. Technocrats is only suggested so that Khans doesn't return to power. This is a joke and a Banana Republic. It is a battle of egos. Look where Bangladesh is and look where Pakistan is now. Shame.
 
Yes bring in technocrats because PDM has destroyed the economy with their incompetence. Technocrats is only suggested so that Khans doesn't return to power. This is a joke and a Banana Republic. It is a battle of egos. Look where Bangladesh is and look where Pakistan is now. Shame.

Reread my post maybe?

I have said technocrats have failed in the past
 
Honestly the problem is do complex and runs so deep that no Pakistani can hear the absolute truth of situation. This PDM, PTI and Establishment drama is nice distraction with clear sides. But reality of economy is extremely stark. The elite already have exit plan in place. Nobody invested in structural foundations of the economy.

One big big problem is that part of the issue is economic. Reliance on imports and remittances. Political and social insecurity has dried investments along with rampant corruption.

Big chunk of issue is socio economic. Median age of 23 with 50% of population out of school. The education also isn't of highest grade which can offer high skills at lucrative costs. The state of diaspora outside also tells this story. Being a security state atleast 10% of budget directly or indirectly is for the army. For reclaiming Kashmir I guess. While Bangladesh can afford to spend that money on human development.

With so many misplaced priorities and conflicting interests with radicalized population, not much to look forward to. Tough long term decisions only way to assure of better future.
 
Reserves have been depleted. PTI failed to do anything, PDM came with a promise that they will fix it and as the year ends we are no better off.

Now talks of technocrat govt taking place which we have seen fail in the past. PTI saying general elections is the solution.

What you think needs to be done?

Apparently doing nothing is 100 times better than whatever PDM is doing. Pakistan was better off in every economic metric when PTI was ousted than it is today. It's truly incredible how badly PDM has handled the economy. If you look at PMLN and PPP's past government performances sure they were extremely bad but they've really taken it to another level with their joint government.

Let's get into some numbers. During the 2021-22 fiscal year Pakistan's total exports were $39.4B and remittances were $30B. During the same period imports were $84B. Now here's the kicker, out of that $84B, $21.4B was just fuel imports. During PTI's last 2 years in government fuel prices increased massively and accounted for over 25% of Pakistan's total imports(including imports of services). CAD came out at $14.6B in PTI's final year. If 2021-22 had the same fuel prices as today and covid not happened Pakistan would've had a surplus in 2021-22.

Here's what PDM has done since it came into power, they've reduced exports, imports, and remittances, and they've completely destroyed any potential for growth. They've dropped our reserves to around $5B effectively making them zero because the remaining reserves are just loans that Pakistan is not allowed to spend. Pakistan had over $17B in its reserves when PTI was ousted. No one is sending remittances through official channels anymore because PDM has messed up the Rupee's exchange rate. We've probably lost billions of dollars in inflows because of that. Major export industries are shutting down because PDM isn't allowing them to import the raw material required to make their products. PDM has put Pakistan's economy into a downward spiral where they're removing all growth potential.

If PDM simply continued PTI's policies we wouldn't have a BOPs crisis right now.

PTI handled a major crisis like covid fairly well, so why not let them deal with the economic impact of Russia's war? They wanted to cut an import deal with Russia for fuel and wheat, so why didn't PDM and its supporters wait until the deal was done? Almost every country in the world did what Imran wanted to do and those countries have greatly reduced the impact of Russia's war and they've also protected their reserves.

Every PDM supporter was spouting nonsense about how a deal with Russia wasn't possible but now after wasting 8 months PDM has finally started negotiations with Russia for discounted fuel.

https://tribune.com.pk/story/2393424/russia-team-due-next-month-to-seal-oil-deal

It doesn't even matter at this point because worldwide fuel prices are record low right now, so a deal with Russia now will have little to no impact.

The best course of action now will be to conduct free and fair elections because we cannot go on like this. It's clear as day that PDM will run this country to the ground if they're left to their own devices. They must be permanently eleminated if we are to progress.
 
My remedy would be, for 15 years no geo politics only geo economics. Open the economy completely. Invite private investment in education. Capital gain tax to be increased on real estate which is booming in a reeling economy. Force online transaction to force disclosure and tax payments. Cut defence spending by 50%. Stop madrassah and create skill hubs for the young. Export markets will be tough in coming years. So focus on inhouse development.
 
My remedy would be, for 15 years no geo politics only geo economics. Open the economy completely. Invite private investment in education. Capital gain tax to be increased on real estate which is booming in a reeling economy. Force online transaction to force disclosure and tax payments. Cut defence spending by 50%. Stop madrassah and create skill hubs for the young. Export markets will be tough in coming years. So focus on inhouse development.

Real estate is always doing well in this country but they will never tax it. This country cant live without getting itselve involved in geopolitics

I agree with your other post aswell that people have no idea what the economic state is.

Its funny there are posters who still think pti was doing well and they are stuck in old naive discussions hamaree party did this your party did that
 
Shaukat Tareen warned everyone of this situation 9 months ago but Pakistan is an experiment. Who cares about the poor? No one. Now PDM can do bangra, another great achievement under their and their supporters belt.
 
Real estate is always doing well in this country but they will never tax it. This country cant live without getting itselve involved in geopolitics

I agree with your other post aswell that people have no idea what the economic state is.

Its funny there are posters who still think pti was doing well and they are stuck in old naive discussions hamaree party did this your party did that

Booming real estate in a failing economy is recipe for disaster. Locks value in assets with no multipler impact. Better to tax them reduce real estate prices and distribute the wealth.
 
This is inevitable irrespective of any government in power.
Years of mismanagement, political uncertainty, terrorism and Army coups...
Doesn't matter whoever in power, Imaran or MDM....they can't fix these issues within few years.
 
Our problems are political in nature and they have real world economic consequences where we cant pay our way in the World we only export 30bn and thanks to these clowns its coming down. We have an elite commonly known as a lootocracy- each decision is made on how much it benefits them, not the country.

So my Solutions FOR the short to medium term. As the saying goes its easier to improve 10 things by by 1% rather than one thing by 10%.

- No more borrowing domestically because banks make billions and there is no need for them to find normal borrowers because they are risky and cant afford the high interest rates. External borrowing only for projects like Dams that can pay their way in the medium term.
- We are a rent seeking people- we look to property 1st and pretty to the last option. Each person should be allowed to buy land to build a house and after that, all purchases should be heavily taxed to force people into productive industries.
- Following on from the previous point- allow investors to invest in factories' and wealth creating industry( use taxation as an incentive). Hang any any civil servant, politicans or General seeking bribes. The whole of PK has barriers to business but in Sindh ugly auntie and her brother have taken it to a new level.

- Agriculture is part of the culture and our lifeblood. If Netherlands can export food worth $85bn, surely we have the land and space to export $40bn. At the moment we can barely feed ourselves. Invest in drip irrigation rather just talk about it. Our Rice are the best in the World, and we can grow pretty much everything. Create dedicated areas to produce certain products- build networks around them for storage, seed and fertilisers.
-Following on from that point- stop the production of sugar cane in areas it was never grown. Sugar has created a mafia and their tentacles are deep. It wastes precious water and stops the production of cotton
-Use those areas freed up to grow cotton- cotton gives us a comparative advantage in the textile trade, its our biggest value industry. It should be $50bn, not $20bn
-Textile Mills should be given access to grants that they use Solar energy and so the cost of electricity comes down for Mill owners and we dont have annual problems with cost and
-Get rid of all IPPs as their contracts end and build the Kalabagh dam( it will add 30GWs. Give Sindh an incentive with a greater share than its due. It will bring cheap electricity and irrigation to many parts of PK



In the longer term IT is the way forward . I would like to see all the school curriculum go on line and kids being taught through the internet. With All the lessons being done by professionals through videos and all the books and worksheets created by professionals and the teachers become facilitators. The best students in areas in STEM subjects go to grammar schools in cities that are state funded and well resourced. This will lead to more industries and at worst export of people and remittances

Lets hear some solutions from PPers because we all know what the problems are.
 
- Agriculture is part of the culture and our lifeblood. If Netherlands can export food worth $85bn, surely we have the land and space to export $40bn. At the moment we can barely feed ourselves. Invest in drip irrigation rather just talk about it. Our Rice are the best in the World, and we can grow pretty much everything. Create dedicated areas to produce certain products- build networks around them for storage, seed and fertilisers. .

Netherlands doesn’t have 250 million people to feed.

Pakistan has lot of problems and no one including IMRAN khan has the cajones to solve it because of how our system works.

I see no hope in this country. The biggest problem is that the people who are actually responsible for the mess and need to be taken to task are the ones who are the decision makers. So logic follows they will not make laws and take steps which punished them in the short term. So you can bring imran khan or whoever and nothing will happen

A small example of above is that the most easy decision to take is regarding the sugar cane mafia. Pakistan is a water scarce country and somehow we grow sugar cane - the most water intensive crop along with rice - by the truck loads. And even then it’s uncompetitive so the government heavily subsidizes it.. there is zero logic in this. In no universe should Pakistan be growing sugar cane.

But the sugar cane mafia namely Tareen were the most influential in bringing PTI in so obviously IMRAN khan didn’t take any sane decision on this matter. And as soon as he started having issues with tareen, his government was gone.

Only solution is for us to switch to a presidential system.
 
Netherlands doesn’t have 250 million people to feed.

Pakistan has lot of problems and no one including IMRAN khan has the cajones to solve it because of how our system works.

I see no hope in this country. The biggest problem is that the people who are actually responsible for the mess and need to be taken to task are the ones who are the decision makers. So logic follows they will not make laws and take steps which punished them in the short term. So you can bring imran khan or whoever and nothing will happen

A small example of above is that the most easy decision to take is regarding the sugar cane mafia. Pakistan is a water scarce country and somehow we grow sugar cane - the most water intensive crop along with rice - by the truck loads. And even then it’s uncompetitive so the government heavily subsidizes it.. there is zero logic in this. In no universe should Pakistan be growing sugar cane.

But the sugar cane mafia namely Tareen were the most influential in bringing PTI in so obviously IMRAN khan didn’t take any sane decision on this matter. And as soon as he started having issues with tareen, his government was gone.

Only solution is for us to switch to a presidential system.

Another common and lazy suggestion (including on this thread) is tax real estate. Why would decision makers who have their own wealth stored in real estate tax themselves?
 
Netherlands doesn’t have 250 million people to feed.

Pakistan has lot of problems and no one including IMRAN khan has the cajones to solve it because of how our system works.

I see no hope in this country. The biggest problem is that the people who are actually responsible for the mess and need to be taken to task are the ones who are the decision makers. So logic follows they will not make laws and take steps which punished them in the short term. So you can bring imran khan or whoever and nothing will happen

A small example of above is that the most easy decision to take is regarding the sugar cane mafia. Pakistan is a water scarce country and somehow we grow sugar cane - the most water intensive crop along with rice - by the truck loads. And even then it’s uncompetitive so the government heavily subsidizes it.. there is zero logic in this. In no universe should Pakistan be growing sugar cane.

But the sugar cane mafia namely Tareen were the most influential in bringing PTI in so obviously IMRAN khan didn’t take any sane decision on this matter. And as soon as he started having issues with tareen, his government was gone.

Only solution is for us to switch to a presidential system.

True but it has less land and it doesnt have the weather like we do. The Sugar mafia is incredibly strong and IK didnt have the power to take it on. A report was produced but nothing major came of it.
 
Another common and lazy suggestion (including on this thread) is tax real estate. Why would decision makers who have their own wealth stored in real estate tax themselves?

I was talking what should be done, not will or has happened. I and everyone knows that nothing will change. We have an elite that will never let go, it doesnt care for anything but money, power and their own families
 
Netherlands doesn’t have 250 million people to feed.

Pakistan has lot of problems and no one including IMRAN khan has the cajones to solve it because of how our system works.

I see no hope in this country. The biggest problem is that the people who are actually responsible for the mess and need to be taken to task are the ones who are the decision makers. So logic follows they will not make laws and take steps which punished them in the short term. So you can bring imran khan or whoever and nothing will happen

A small example of above is that the most easy decision to take is regarding the sugar cane mafia. Pakistan is a water scarce country and somehow we grow sugar cane - the most water intensive crop along with rice - by the truck loads. And even then it’s uncompetitive so the government heavily subsidizes it.. there is zero logic in this. In no universe should Pakistan be growing sugar cane.

But the sugar cane mafia namely Tareen were the most influential in bringing PTI in so obviously IMRAN khan didn’t take any sane decision on this matter. And as soon as he started having issues with tareen, his government was gone.

Only solution is for us to switch to a presidential system.

It will help but wont make much of difference because our elite wont allow anyone to threaten their looted billions
 
No one wants to actually make the necessary policy changes in Pakistan. It means burning a lot of political capital to make hard choices. And if those changes negatively impact the lives of the political elite then that means the government will be packing its bags and going home. So yes, nothing will change.
 
Could dictatorship be the answer? Democracy requires ethical people which i believe we lack.

Maybe dictatorship till we fix ourselves up and than democracy after we obtain a minimum literacy level.

What I have seen in the last 5 years of our politics is how the democratic system has been used against one other rather than help the nation
 
Could dictatorship be the answer? Democracy requires ethical people which i believe we lack.

Maybe dictatorship till we fix ourselves up and than democracy after we obtain a minimum literacy level.

What I have seen in the last 5 years of our politics is how the democratic system has been used against one other rather than help the nation

We had Zia and he did bugger all, On the other hand Ayub did well. The issue is that you need a dictator with vision and with public support, in the age of social media that is impossible. Mush had the chance but he gave an NRO to the criminals because he got flats in London. Due that disasterous decision we now have no Judicial system. A guy nicking chewing gum faces a local Thana, a guy that steals trillions becomes President or PM and gets people killed and faces no sanctions
 
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A technocratic government will not solve our problems. This has been proven historically whether in Bangladesh or elsewhere. Technocrats have no political credibility to drive policy changes through all the bureaucracy. Stable government completing their tenure and making basic prudent decisions is the way to go, whether those are political or economic. Removing the PTI when looked at strictly through a political lens may have been the right move for the PDM but it was an own goal for the country. It has set us back many years if not decades. The only way forward is through proper elections and subsequently all parties working together. In Pakistan the parties are fighting each other tooth and nail, that doesn’t help the country.

Putting political decisions aside, the economy under PTI had very good macroeconomic indicators, all that has been washed away under Dar’s pegging the USD policy. Miftah was doing a good job, it’s unfortunate he was sacked.
 
The road to long term redemption is not quick and there is no easy quick fix here. There is a path for long term change but it is difficult and requires continuous focus (something I' pessimistic about).

Assume each generation is 25 years for the purpose of people becoming old enough to be economic participants of a country.

Given the above, I would say there is very less hope for the current generation. IF (big if) Pakistan can focus on education across all levels for its current children and teens, then in the next 15-20 years it can percolate into credible local level political leadership and credible bureaucrats at local levels, which can then translate into policies with positive impacts over time. This is the only long term sustainable solution - without education investment long term policy changes are impossible.

Why am I pessimistic about this -- We can assume this forum and its participants are among the top 20% in terms of education and economic mobility. Even in this forum, what is the majority consensus when we say let's spend more for education and follow successful models? All we get here in this forum is people claiming education status quo is good, Ummah brotherhood is the way to go, military needs more money ... etc etc. If the top 20% educated and economic group of Pakistan thinks in such a regressive way, how do you think the "aam aadmi" in the streets of Pindi/Peshawar/Karachi would think? Do you see any hope here?
 
A technocratic government will not solve our problems. This has been proven historically whether in Bangladesh or elsewhere. Technocrats have no political credibility to drive policy changes through all the bureaucracy. Stable government completing their tenure and making basic prudent decisions is the way to go, whether those are political or economic. Removing the PTI when looked at strictly through a political lens may have been the right move for the PDM but it was an own goal for the country. It has set us back many years if not decades. The only way forward is through proper elections and subsequently all parties working together. In Pakistan the parties are fighting each other tooth and nail, that doesn’t help the country.

Putting political decisions aside, the economy under PTI had very good macroeconomic indicators, all that has been washed away under Dar’s pegging the USD policy. Miftah was doing a good job, it’s unfortunate he was sacked.

Dar isn't absolute tool. In a desperate attempt to prove himself right he has destroyed what little life there was in the economy. If there was no VONC, PK economy would have grown around 4% and inflation would have been around 20% because of the higher gas and oil prices. RP would gone down 195. Today Inflation is around 40%, economy is barely above a recession if not in recession and Rp is at 260.
The mafia couldn't handle accountability and Bajwa played a dirty game
 
The road to long term redemption is not quick and there is no easy quick fix here. There is a path for long term change but it is difficult and requires continuous focus (something I' pessimistic about).

Assume each generation is 25 years for the purpose of people becoming old enough to be economic participants of a country.

Given the above, I would say there is very less hope for the current generation. IF (big if) Pakistan can focus on education across all levels for its current children and teens, then in the next 15-20 years it can percolate into credible local level political leadership and credible bureaucrats at local levels, which can then translate into policies with positive impacts over time. This is the only long term sustainable solution - without education investment long term policy changes are impossible.

Why am I pessimistic about this -- We can assume this forum and its participants are among the top 20% in terms of education and economic mobility. Even in this forum, what is the majority consensus when we say let's spend more for education and follow successful models? All we get here in this forum is people claiming education status quo is good, Ummah brotherhood is the way to go, military needs more money ... etc etc. If the top 20% educated and economic group of Pakistan thinks in such a regressive way, how do you think the "aam aadmi" in the streets of Pindi/Peshawar/Karachi would think? Do you see any hope here?

Forgot to add, I also wish they would get out of the cursed CPEC. It is a white elephant debt trap that I disliked then and dislike it now. It is frustrating that even genuine voices of dissent against CPEC were silenced as "Indian agents" back then. I doubt there is any way to get out of it now.
 
the road is long and hard, the rough guidelines IMO are below

1. liberalise the economy, there is tonnes of bureaucratic nonsense which serves as a rent seeking mechanism for the state and leeches value out of the economy.

2. co-opt the religious classes to preach industry, entrepreneurship and hard work as part of religion (Islam is generally very pro-business), Pakistanis accept religious direction easier than any other form of direction.

3. take a very high-level approach to target 3 or 4 value add industries, state directed private enterprise, south Korea style, from the top of my head this could be stuff like private security (black water, xe, etc), weapon manufacture, sports equipment, medical outsourcing, etc.

4. finance, normalise corporate finance for SMEs, and where necessary towards national interests provide state backing in private-public partnerships for larger industries (private run it, with public holding partial high level governance roles).

5. education, the only way to compete is value addition, and in the modern economy, simple skills do not add enough value. realign the syllabus on software, engineering and computing. combined with step 1 and 4 this will create a very low barrier to entry tech industry.

steps 1 to 3 are designed to reduce the wastage in the economy and provide a medium road map to balance the C/A deficit, steps 4 to 5 are designed to increase the long term productivity of the country.

step 3 and 5 are the most critical, for step 3 u need expertise in deciding what industries to target, and step 5 since implementation and results would take a generation to come through.
 
The ideal way forward would be to stake stock of your expenses. We have a ridiculous number of frivilous expenses. Our politicians right down to insitutiions and army. Cut all their budget, and focus on pumping some cash into the economy instead. BUt of course nobody will be able to do it..

But I bet it wont take much for our economic situation to improve if we do that. THEn we need to get away from out dependence on US alone and should be free to trade with other non US ally countries. I think our major issue is with the chinese debt also which in a few years will be a major headache.
 
Its funny how Major is asking the solution now. I thought PDM was the solution? You guys destroyed a good economy and now have no clue of what to do.

This is high level incompetence and deceive to the common man. PDM doesn't care about the economy, they only care about their cases. Time to return the loot may be?

We warned you but your egos and dirty money means more to you then Pakistan. Now you fix this issue or leave us. Preferably, leave us and return the loot.
 
Pakistan is living beyond its means by running twin deficits.

There is also a current account deficit. The country exports c. $27bn of goods and services and imports > $50bn. Every few years the government undertakes an IMF programs and borrows from friendly countries. The rupee stabilises, the trade gap widens. When the foreign exchange runs out, there is a fresh balance of payments crisis. The government has to devalue the rupee and go back to the IMF.

There is also a fiscal deficit. Government spending is c. 20% of GDP whilst taxes are less than 15% of GDP. This is a lesser issue than the current account deficit because the government can simply print money to bridge the gap. The problem with printing money is that it causes inflation. Inflation has been running at > 10% p.a. in Pakistan for many decades.

In the near term Pakistan needs to fix these two deficits.

The trade balance is critical and boosting exports is the key. I won't go into detailed policy measures but Pakistan needs to play to its strengths.

  • It has a cheap labour force. Much cheaper than India.
  • It is not China and many western companies are moving production out of China.
  • Pakistan could provide very cheap energy to businesses via solar farms if the government choose to do so.

Energy investment is key. A big chunk of Pakistan's imports are energy. We can shift to solar power (it is sunny for 10 months of the year) and switch to battery powered vehicles (bikes, rickshaws etc). That will make a sizeable dent in imports.

Longer term, Pakistan needs to fix its productivity problem


This is a long road to travel down. But the key ingredients include:

  • Political stability - absolutely key. No one will invest in the current climate.
  • Educate the workforce. This should be an emergency.
  • Cheap energy. Again, solar is the best bet
  • Give tax incentives for foreign firms to set up shop in Pakistan e.g. via special economic zone. This would lead to gradual transfer of technology and move Pakistan further up the productivity frontier.
 
Forgot to add, I also wish they would get out of the cursed CPEC. It is a white elephant debt trap that I disliked then and dislike it now. It is frustrating that even genuine voices of dissent against CPEC were silenced as "Indian agents" back then. I doubt there is any way to get out of it now.

This is an interesting point. CPEC really handcuffed us and as far as I can tell has not reaped any major economic benefits for the masses in Pakistan. I don’t even know how it’s possible to get out of this as it’s in some ways made Pakistan a Chinese colony. Chinese are nowhere to be found now as the country approaches default, they’re waiting to take another pound of flesh when we’re on the brink.

Modernization in agriculture plus setting up basic industries is also key. We do not have a petrochemical industry really to speak of other than say Engro; for example Pakistan does not have a single naphtha cracker which is essential to produce basic products like polyethylene or polypropylene. We export naphtha from our refineries which in turn is used by other countries as feedstock to produce chemicals that are sold back to Pakistan. A country with 220+ million without this basic infrastructure is mind boggling.
 
Its funny how Major is asking the solution now. I thought PDM was the solution? You guys destroyed a good economy and now have no clue of what to do.

This is high level incompetence and deceive to the common man. PDM doesn't care about the economy, they only care about their cases. Time to return the loot may be?

We warned you but your egos and dirty money means more to you then Pakistan. Now you fix this issue or leave us. Preferably, leave us and return the loot.

Bro, look aT the responses in this thread. For once we are seeing discussion where supporters of both groups coming together and sharing what needs to fixed in terms of economic policy. Everyone has shared some very wonderful opinions and enjoying reading them

Yet you are the only one trying to make in this into a typical political thread by making post which has nothing to do with economics.
 
Bro, look aT the responses in this thread. For once we are seeing discussion where supporters of both groups coming together and sharing what needs to fixed in terms of economic policy. Everyone has shared some very wonderful opinions and enjoying reading them

Yet you are the only one trying to make in this into a typical political thread by making post which has nothing to do with economics.

However you cannot deny that he does have a point. :)
 
Pakistan is living beyond its means by running twin deficits.

There is also a current account deficit. The country exports c. $27bn of goods and services and imports > $50bn. Every few years the government undertakes an IMF programs and borrows from friendly countries. The rupee stabilises, the trade gap widens. When the foreign exchange runs out, there is a fresh balance of payments crisis. The government has to devalue the rupee and go back to the IMF.

There is also a fiscal deficit. Government spending is c. 20% of GDP whilst taxes are less than 15% of GDP. This is a lesser issue than the current account deficit because the government can simply print money to bridge the gap. The problem with printing money is that it causes inflation. Inflation has been running at > 10% p.a. in Pakistan for many decades.

In the near term Pakistan needs to fix these two deficits.

The trade balance is critical and boosting exports is the key. I won't go into detailed policy measures but Pakistan needs to play to its strengths.

  • It has a cheap labour force. Much cheaper than India.
  • It is not China and many western companies are moving production out of China.
  • Pakistan could provide very cheap energy to businesses via solar farms if the government choose to do so.

Energy investment is key. A big chunk of Pakistan's imports are energy. We can shift to solar power (it is sunny for 10 months of the year) and switch to battery powered vehicles (bikes, rickshaws etc). That will make a sizeable dent in imports.

Longer term, Pakistan needs to fix its productivity problem


This is a long road to travel down. But the key ingredients include:

  • Political stability - absolutely key. No one will invest in the current climate.
  • Educate the workforce. This should be an emergency.
  • Cheap energy. Again, solar is the best bet
  • Give tax incentives for foreign firms to set up shop in Pakistan e.g. via special economic zone. This would lead to gradual transfer of technology and move Pakistan further up the productivity frontier.

Good points. The cheap labor force is exactly the strength I was referring to in another education system thread. For Pakistan to compete for BPO and outsourcing segments to provide job opportunities for graduates and also get some precious FDI in. Basically follow what India did during late 90s and grow the services segment through cost competitiveness to give the twin benefits of job opportunities and FDI.

But "how dare we do what India did even if it makes more sense" seems to be the line of thought even among educated and more aware Pakistanis here. :sarf_facepalm
 
This is an interesting point. CPEC really handcuffed us and as far as I can tell has not reaped any major economic benefits for the masses in Pakistan. I don’t even know how it’s possible to get out of this as it’s in some ways made Pakistan a Chinese colony. Chinese are nowhere to be found now as the country approaches default, they’re waiting to take another pound of flesh when we’re on the brink.

Modernization in agriculture plus setting up basic industries is also key. We do not have a petrochemical industry really to speak of other than say Engro; for example Pakistan does not have a single naphtha cracker which is essential to produce basic products like polyethylene or polypropylene. We export naphtha from our refineries which in turn is used by other countries as feedstock to produce chemicals that are sold back to Pakistan. A country with 220+ million without this basic infrastructure is mind boggling.

Pakistan is its own best friend. The Chinese are not Pakistan's friends just because they are an enemy's enemy. Pakistan is just an agent of convenience or a pawn rather in their own chess board providing them a utility value. While at it, they are also sucking Pakistan dry through these "gifts" called CPEC. Sadly the politicians and the people (local and expats) are more easily influenced by the marketing stuff. We can easily see so many posts in this very forum 1-2 years ago where people were touting CPEC to be the end all be all. Some even going on to say how CPEC will make Pakistan dwarf India's economy. Where are those CPEC rejoicers now?

Good point about Naphtha, I have read about that too. All of the initial expense and subsequent interest payments towards the vanity driven CPEC could have been funneled into at least a smaller driven in house naphtha manufacturing which would have increased self reliance and also decreased exports (thus decreasing trade gaps). But NOOO ... we must prioritize standing with our Chinese friends for CPEC and show them Indian enemies how much stronger our Chinese brothers can make us.

I bet a lot of the CPEC money has also been funneled into the pockets of Bhutto/Shariff clan in some way.
 
Its funny how Major is asking the solution now. I thought PDM was the solution? You guys destroyed a good economy and now have no clue of what to do.

This is high level incompetence and deceive to the common man. PDM doesn't care about the economy, they only care about their cases. Time to return the loot may be?

We warned you but your egos and dirty money means more to you then Pakistan. Now you fix this issue or leave us. Preferably, leave us and return the loot.

I thought the same but I didn't want to derail the thread. With all these amazing brains put together by Bajwa why do they need anyone else to tell them. We were told that if only the parties worked together and 13 did. End result-disaster with not one achievement to their name, not one
 
Pakistan is its own best friend. The Chinese are not Pakistan's friends just because they are an enemy's enemy. Pakistan is just an agent of convenience or a pawn rather in their own chess board providing them a utility value. While at it, they are also sucking Pakistan dry through these "gifts" called CPEC. Sadly the politicians and the people (local and expats) are more easily influenced by the marketing stuff. We can easily see so many posts in this very forum 1-2 years ago where people were touting CPEC to be the end all be all. Some even going on to say how CPEC will make Pakistan dwarf India's economy. Where are those CPEC rejoicers now?

Good point about Naphtha, I have read about that too. All of the initial expense and subsequent interest payments towards the vanity driven CPEC could have been funneled into at least a smaller driven in house naphtha manufacturing which would have increased self reliance and also decreased exports (thus decreasing trade gaps). But NOOO ... we must prioritize standing with our Chinese friends for CPEC and show them Indian enemies how much stronger our Chinese brothers can make us.

I bet a lot of the CPEC money has also been funneled into the pockets of Bhutto/Shariff clan in some way.

I have no doubts there were kickbacks but irrespective of that the economic structure in Pakistan is so flawed they the returns we’re getting on all these projects are marginal at best. For it to be successful we need a strong export economy, disciplined taxation, professional and competitive governmental departments and a focus on education. Sadly, Pakistan doesn’t check the mark in any of those categories so whatever benefits cpec reaps will line the pockets of a few. It’s really a botched opportunity and one that we’ll be paying off for generations to come.
 
Economic situation is Shahbaz's government is going place to place begging for money. What a complete mess we are. Gonna take at least ten years to get out of this situation only if we get a good government in place next year.
 
Economic situation is Shahbaz's government is going place to place begging for money. What a complete mess we are. Gonna take at least ten years to get out of this situation only if we get a good government in place next year.

There is no escape from this vortex. We are doomed
 
There is no escape from this vortex. We are doomed

Jaisi awam waise hukmuran. Allah grants a people a government that reflects them. When the common Pakistani living in the country is corrupt and intolerant then there is no reason for us to expect or deserve anything better.
 
I have no doubts there were kickbacks but irrespective of that the economic structure in Pakistan is so flawed they the returns we’re getting on all these projects are marginal at best. For it to be successful we need a strong export economy, disciplined taxation, professional and competitive governmental departments and a focus on education. Sadly, Pakistan doesn’t check the mark in any of those categories so whatever benefits cpec reaps will line the pockets of a few. It’s really a botched opportunity and one that we’ll be paying off for generations to come.

Where were these voices of reason in this forum a year ago when CPEC seemed all the rage? Where are those who were extolling the virtues of CPEC back then? Have they all gone into hiding now that the reality has come back to bite?

Those who are living in Pakistan now - how is the general public mood about CPEC? Are they still excited as before or are they questioning things at least now?
 
Bro, look aT the responses in this thread. For once we are seeing discussion where supporters of both groups coming together and sharing what needs to fixed in terms of economic policy. Everyone has shared some very wonderful opinions and enjoying reading them

Yet you are the only one trying to make in this into a typical political thread by making post which has nothing to do with economics.

First, admit that you put the country on to the brink of default then we can talk.

Stop trying to act like the wise ones when you are the problem. You can enjoy reading things but it does not change anything. All your nonsense over the years have has resulted in this. Enough is enough, your drama and time is over.
 
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Jaisi awam waise hukmuran. Allah grants a people a government that reflects them. When the common Pakistani living in the country is corrupt and intolerant then there is no reason for us to expect or deserve anything better.

You are true to an extent but on the ground, 90% of the public hate PDM. Public thinks that this is an installed government that not only is corrupt but also extremely incompetent.
 
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Where were these voices of reason in this forum a year ago when CPEC seemed all the rage? Where are those who were extolling the virtues of CPEC back then? Have they all gone into hiding now that the reality has come back to bite?

Those who are living in Pakistan now - how is the general public mood about CPEC? Are they still excited as before or are they questioning things at least now?

CPEC is not the only issue. The main issue has been the ill intentions of the major stakeholders towards the country, lack of policy making & vision and incompetence.

I agree that there should also be a full investigation of CPEC so there is transparency.
 
I thought the same but I didn't want to derail the thread. With all these amazing brains put together by Bajwa why do they need anyone else to tell them. We were told that if only the parties worked together and 13 did. End result-disaster with not one achievement to their name, not one

They came back running to Shaukat Tareen when they didn't know how to operate the economy.

It was a failed experiment and the public will have to pay now for years to come. Well done to all actors involved.
 
CPEC is not the only issue. The main issue has been the ill intentions of the major stakeholders towards the country, lack of policy making & vision and incompetence.

I agree that there should also be a full investigation of CPEC so there is transparency.

If Pakistan is a drowning man in the ocean then CPEC is a 20 KG Gold stone tied around that drowning man's neck. There were (are) idiots who are claiming that it is a good thing because "the stone tied around the neck is made of gold".

CPEC is shaping up to be the knock out punch that will push the struggling nation to bankruptcy or beyond.
 
Pakistan is living beyond its means by running twin deficits.

There is also a current account deficit. The country exports c. $27bn of goods and services and imports > $50bn. Every few years the government undertakes an IMF programs and borrows from friendly countries. The rupee stabilises, the trade gap widens. When the foreign exchange runs out, there is a fresh balance of payments crisis. The government has to devalue the rupee and go back to the IMF.

There is also a fiscal deficit. Government spending is c. 20% of GDP whilst taxes are less than 15% of GDP. This is a lesser issue than the current account deficit because the government can simply print money to bridge the gap. The problem with printing money is that it causes inflation. Inflation has been running at > 10% p.a. in Pakistan for many decades.

In the near term Pakistan needs to fix these two deficits.

The trade balance is critical and boosting exports is the key. I won't go into detailed policy measures but Pakistan needs to play to its strengths.

  • It has a cheap labour force. Much cheaper than India.
  • It is not China and many western companies are moving production out of China.
  • Pakistan could provide very cheap energy to businesses via solar farms if the government choose to do so.

Energy investment is key. A big chunk of Pakistan's imports are energy. We can shift to solar power (it is sunny for 10 months of the year) and switch to battery powered vehicles (bikes, rickshaws etc). That will make a sizeable dent in imports.

Longer term, Pakistan needs to fix its productivity problem


This is a long road to travel down. But the key ingredients include:

  • Political stability - absolutely key. No one will invest in the current climate.
  • Educate the workforce. This should be an emergency.
  • Cheap energy. Again, solar is the best bet
  • Give tax incentives for foreign firms to set up shop in Pakistan e.g. via special economic zone. This would lead to gradual transfer of technology and move Pakistan further up the productivity frontier.

I was thinking of responding by making a long post but this post pretty much captures what I intended to write.

The point about political stability and reputation is a knock-out question. Its a must have without that nothing much else will happen. But unfortunately in Pakistan that is not going to happen unless the Military gives up power. This wont happen because of obvious reasons. Therefore its a bit of a catch 22 situation.

India was very lucky to have had a stable democratic setup and a population that prioritized education over other things. Those 2 factors alone are the main cause of our current self-sufficient stable economic state and that is despite corruption at epic scale.
 
I was thinking of responding by making a long post but this post pretty much captures what I intended to write.

The point about political stability and reputation is a knock-out question. Its a must have without that nothing much else will happen. But unfortunately in Pakistan that is not going to happen unless the Military gives up power. This wont happen because of obvious reasons. Therefore its a bit of a catch 22 situation.

India was very lucky to have had a stable democratic setup and a population that prioritized education over other things. Those 2 factors alone are the main cause of our current self-sufficient stable economic state and that is despite corruption at epic scale.

Agreed. There is no easy way to wean ourselves off military funding. 45% of the budget is allocated to the military, this statistic alone is astonishing. PDM actually increased military spending in the latest budget. As much as we like to blame them, and alot of the blame is warranted, all past governments, especially coalition ones have been handcuffed as having a weak center is exactly what the Jurnails want.
 
Jaisi awam waise hukmuran. Allah grants a people a government that reflects them. When the common Pakistani living in the country is corrupt and intolerant then there is no reason for us to expect or deserve anything better.

Maybe, but we still pray in the hope for forgiveness.
 
Piling on more debt will only be a stopgap measure at best in the never ending saga. Pakistan’s sovereign debt is at such astronomical proportions that no country/agency including its all weather friend, is willing to bail it out. And its old habit of playing to the gallery on both sides of the aisle doesn’t exactly politically endear it to any country.

Sorry to say but the only solution is to default & declare bankruptcy. It will be very painful for a few years, but will also provide a clean slate in terms of debt & hopefully then the country gets wiser in choosing their leaders.
 
Good points. The cheap labor force is exactly the strength I was referring to in another education system thread. For Pakistan to compete for BPO and outsourcing segments to provide job opportunities for graduates and also get some precious FDI in. Basically follow what India did during late 90s and grow the services segment through cost competitiveness to give the twin benefits of job opportunities and FDI.

But "how dare we do what India did even if it makes more sense" seems to be the line of thought even among educated and more aware Pakistanis here. :sarf_facepalm

Sadly that’s the tragedy of Pakistan. The solutions are simple and blindingly obvious. But none of the major stakeholders have an interest in implementing them

Boosting exports via the outsourcing market is a perfect example. We don’t need to reinvent the wheel. Simply copy what India / Philippines have done. But our leaders prefer ‘peeli taxi’ and laptop schemes over nurturing new industries.

In my job I meet with a lot of CEOs and CFOs of the largest companies in the UK. They often complain that hiring tech people in places like Bangalore is becoming too expensive. When I ask them about alternative locations, they never mention Pakistan. Main reason being instability. If I outsource my back office to Pakistan I’m taking a huge risk. If there is rioting or unrest and the back office isn’t functioning, the first question everyone will ask is ‘why on earth did you set up in Pakistan?’

Hence, despite being more expensive the safer bet remains India.
 
I was thinking of responding by making a long post but this post pretty much captures what I intended to write.

The point about political stability and reputation is a knock-out question. Its a must have without that nothing much else will happen. But unfortunately in Pakistan that is not going to happen unless the Military gives up power. This wont happen because of obvious reasons. Therefore its a bit of a catch 22 situation.

India was very lucky to have had a stable democratic setup and a population that prioritized education over other things. Those 2 factors alone are the main cause of our current self-sufficient stable economic state and that is despite corruption at epic scale.

This is so true. Without stability no one will risk investing. Imagine going to your boss and explaining the office in Pakistan has been burnt down. You’ll get the sack straight away.

In India it took more than 50 years for the Nehru Gandhi family to be booted out. BJP, like them or not, are a meritocratic outfit. After all, Modi was a tea seller.

Sadly I don’t see meritocratic parties emerging in Pakistan for another 15 to 20 years. Nawaz and Zardari will be replaced by their incompetent and entitled children who in turn have kids of their own.

Even PTI is a one man show. There is nothing beyond Imran Khan.

But one thing is certain. We cannot go back to the military in search for temporary stability. That will reset the clock on this 15 year hybrid democracy experiment.

I might be wrong but I think we need to persist with this experiment in the hope that over time meritocratic parties can emerge. If these parties can deliver good governance then they might have the genuine authority to curtail the influence of the military.

If that doesn’t happen we’ll be stuck in this no man’s land with corrupt elites and a powerful military who are only looking out for their own self interest.
 
This isn't an economic problem. Its a political one. What can be done? In the immediate short term we need an election. Then we need the jurnails to stay out of it and concentrate on some key areas that are within their remit.

An election won't solve every problem but it will deal with the most pressing issue that of stability.

Once we have a five year stable govt in place with a proper opposition we can move along however slowly.

You can quote numbers and figures but we know things can change very quickly nowadays. The world moves fast.

I think one thing that has been proven is that the old way of thinking must be jettisioned permanently. But according to some in the media Bajwa has made some guarantees with his bosses which includes recognition of Israel end of kashmir struggle and support for a new op in afghanski. I don't know if this is true but we shall see...overall nothing will probably change..
 
Pakistan’s economic woes can be linked to the debacle of 1971. The powers that be could not let go of their authority and decentralisation of power never realised. Those in power would much rather lose the majority of the country than lose its grip on power.
More importantly, it indicates the mindset of the ruling class. They want to govern everyone with an iron fist. The only industry that’s growing in Pakistan is growing because of lack of regulations. Less regulations mean less bureaucracy and less red tape. Less file culture and less greasing of the wheels.
In short, give each and every industry a space to grow. Give them the necessary tools to succeed, such as favourable environment to thrive and don’t hold them back with too many unnecessary regulations. Digitise everything and get over the obsession of paperwork.
 
Big question is, can economy be saved at all ? I think it's not the worst idea at the moment to default. It's inevitable anyway. At best govt can kick the can down the road. But fundamentals of economy won't transform overnight.
 
If the crooked PDM returned the looted money the country would be in a much healthier place.

Much has to change within the institutions but in the end the solution remains democratic elections and then to go after the corrupt.
 
Big question is, can economy be saved at all ? I think it's not the worst idea at the moment to default. It's inevitable anyway. At best govt can kick the can down the road. But fundamentals of economy won't transform overnight.

SS and Munshi blamed structural issues over 30 years. Bar the 3 yrs of IK, who has been in power? Yes all the people that have been in power since 1971.
 
if anyone thinks the mess pak is in today is due to one party, leader or whatever, they are sadly deluded, and until this delusion is addressed there is no hope.

Pakistan has been on a path of self-destruction for most of its existence.
 
Reserves have been depleted. PTI failed to do anything, PDM came with a promise that they will fix it and as the year ends we are no better off.

Now talks of technocrat govt taking place which we have seen fail in the past. PTI saying general elections is the solution.

What you think needs to be done?

:)))

Is this a wind up?

Maybe Zardari can give back the billions he's looted for a start???
 
Why is there so much finger pointing even in a thread asking for solutions? PTI, PDM, PPP ... they are all the same and this is a collective failure of the entire ruling class for the past 70+ years, their military focused budget policies (ranging from high defense budget to funding proxies in other countries), no focus on education, no economic liberalization and probably many more factors. This is the reality. Finger pointing failure on one XYZ party/event is either myopic or a deliberate distraction (or both).

I wish this thread would focus more on solutions and the way forward instead of "this is your party's fault" type messages. The few posts above that did mention that are stellar and I wish more people would have such inputs.
 
Why is there so much finger pointing even in a thread asking for solutions? PTI, PDM, PPP ... they are all the same and this is a collective failure of the entire ruling class for the past 70+ years, their military focused budget policies (ranging from high defense budget to funding proxies in other countries), no focus on education, no economic liberalization and probably many more factors. This is the reality. Finger pointing failure on one XYZ party/event is either myopic or a deliberate distraction (or both).

I wish this thread would focus more on solutions and the way forward instead of "this is your party's fault" type messages. The few posts above that did mention that are stellar and I wish more people would have such inputs.

Stop this nonsense they are all the same. Unless you have been living under a rock then you will know that it's just rubbish
 
Emphasis on education, exterminating religious extremism, providing safe environment for businesses to thrive must be made top priority.

Invite foreign companies to open their businesses which will bring in lot of investment. It creates jobs for the upcoming educated youth. There is no quick solution. It will take a couple of decades to bring the country back on progressive path.

Any politician who promises that he or she will fix Pakistan's problems right away are selling snake oil.
 
Why is there so much finger pointing even in a thread asking for solutions? PTI, PDM, PPP ... they are all the same and this is a collective failure of the entire ruling class for the past 70+ years, their military focused budget policies (ranging from high defense budget to funding proxies in other countries), no focus on education, no economic liberalization and probably many more factors. This is the reality. Finger pointing failure on one XYZ party/event is either myopic or a deliberate distraction (or both).

I wish this thread would focus more on solutions and the way forward instead of "this is your party's fault" type messages. The few posts above that did mention that are stellar and I wish more people would have such inputs.

Zardari and Nawaz families have looted $billions but in your world they are the same as PTI :))
 
Emphasis on education, exterminating religious extremism, providing safe environment for businesses to thrive must be made top priority.

Invite foreign companies to open their businesses which will bring in lot of investment. It creates jobs for the upcoming educated youth. There is no quick solution. It will take a couple of decades to bring the country back on progressive path.

Any politician who promises that he or she will fix Pakistan's problems right away are selling snake oil.

India have an extremist Hindu government for years but Indian posters on here feel India is no longer a 3rd world nation.

The solution is simple, end corruption and economy will grow.
 
India have an extremist Hindu government for years but Indian posters on here feel India is no longer a 3rd world nation.

The solution is simple, end corruption and economy will grow.

corruption cant end, you can only hope to reduce its growth rate to less than that of the economy, so that it becomes proportionally lesser.

the key to lowering corruption is a smaller state, the greater the ratio of private enterprise to state activities the greater the growth in surplus.

but everyone has so many random agendas for the government to fulfil this will never happen.
 
Stop this nonsense they are all the same. Unless you have been living under a rock then you will know that it's just rubbish

Zardari and Nawaz families have looted $billions but in your world they are the same as PTI :))

Please understand that I'm not a PDM (or any non-PTI) supporter. Nor am I anti-PTI by any means. I believe this is a systemic fault over however many decades. This is not one government's or one party's or one individual's fault. That is a highly simplistic finger pointing reaction.

For what it is worth, I would gladly support (or even donate) for a genuine initiative that jails the Bhutto/Sharif/Zardari clans and ensure none of their descendants ever come to power again. Their dynastic politics has been among the many reasons for where the country is today.

BUT - their corrupt rule is not the only reason for where the country is today. Even if a policy is not corrupt, it is still detrimental if it is a wrong policy. I believe Pakistan has had a combination of corrupt policies + wrong policies over the past decades leading to where the country is now.

Who knows if PTI as it stands will do better than PDM? Even if it does seem better, how sustainable is that scenario? PTI is a one man army as of today and that one man is also controlled by the military establishment so his hands are tied even if heart is in the right place. What happens to PTI governance after this one man's time? What is the long term solution here?

I don't care about PTI-PDM debates. As much as PTI seems better for some treating IK as the messiah who can fix it all is a bad hope. It is unrealistic and doomed to fail. The long term road to salvation is long, hard, and needs continuous focus. There is no "quick fix" by hoping on one man regardless of how good that one man may seem to be.
 
Do the default and let PTI rule from bottom up without constant debt pressure on his head, IK is the only pragmatic ruler who will change based on problems that occur than just use the same solution for every problem.
 
You are true to an extent but on the ground, 90% of the public hate PDM. Public thinks that this is an installed government that not only is corrupt but also extremely incompetent.

Every party has it supporters and haters. The point I am making is put most Pak people in chargeof Pak and they'll be like Nawaz, Shahbaz and Zardari. Even IK is not totally honest.
 
$8.3 bn loan repayment with $5.8bn reserves. Default is inevitable. If not now, then in a few months.
 
$8.3 bn loan repayment with $5.8bn reserves. Default is inevitable. If not now, then in a few months.

Why is the idea that the major stakeholders paying back the loot not being considered? Surely, they have looted more then 10 BLN collectively. The figure is most likely much higher then this.

Why should the public pay?
 
Do the default and let PTI rule from bottom up without constant debt pressure on his head, IK is the only pragmatic ruler who will change based on problems that occur than just use the same solution for every problem.

Yes, give PTI the rule after defaulting and destroying the economy. Then build a narrative within 6 months about inflation using the media. Same media is mute now when inflation is touching 40%.

If you want to give Khan the power, the public should give him continous majority for 10 years. This is the only solution.
 
$8.3 bn loan repayment with $5.8bn reserves. Default is inevitable. If not now, then in a few months.

You seem to run when confronted, [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] has mastered that art but your learning quick. so once again

SS and Munshi blamed structural issues over 30 years. Bar the 3 yrs of IK, who has been in power? Yes all the people that have been in power since 1971. So why dont you actually face facts and point the fingers at the mafia that is in power and has been for pretty much for 52 years
 
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