What is Pakistan's exact problem with India

[cricketjoshila]

Kashmir is not Indian domestic affair. Pakistan and its leaders have every right to comment on Kashmir's affairs. Understand that before you comment on a Pakistani forum or don't come here at all.

Did Kashmir acede to Pakistan? Did Hari Singh sign the treaty of Ascension with Pakistan? He didn't.

He as the legitimate ruler of Kashmir aceded to India. So if there are any issues, its between India and the people of J and K. Pakistan has no say in it other than the fact that its illegally squatting on kashmiri territory forcibly taken from Hari Singh.For years India patiently listened to Pakistan on kashmir and negotiated. Its good that Modi has shut the door on pakistan in this matter and hence the pakistani PM is reduced to making twitter rants.

What right do pakistanis have to talk about CAA or Babri or Gujarat or RSS?

Remember that you don't own this forum, hence you have no right to ask anyone whether he should or should not come here.

 

[cricketjoshila]

I'm surprised this type of verbal diarrhoea is allowed on a Pakistani forum. Of course, I respect the idea of an informed debate but some of the Indian posts (and posters) on here, such as OP, are an absolute disrespect. As [MENTION=139664]street cricketer[/MENTION] has himself pointed out, this is a rant. Mods should look into this. I respect discussions but I come onto this forum not to be drowned in Indian misinformation and propaganda. I didn't wanna read past "Gilgit is ours". An absolute disgrace and disrespect.

Gilgit Baltistan was part of the erst while princely state of Kashmir. The borders were ratified by British India and the Indian Independence Act of 1947 that created India and Pakistan also gave the princely states sovereignty.

Since Hari Singh decided to Acede to India, whole of Kashmir belongs India, including POK.

 

[cricket4all]

I was not commenting on the morality of India keeping Kashmir (though I do believe there are good moral reasons for doing so) rather whether your prediction would come true. In an earlier post you had written ""Back to the British they had to leave India one day and so will the Indians get kicked out of Kashmir eventually. It may not happen soon or in our lifetime but surely will one day".



That is mighty generous of you, given that it has been 25 years since they were driven out and they risk being murdered if they return.

The pandits should have never been driven out, that's their homeland too. It's nothing about me being generous though. I don't have control over what happens. I can't see any real good moral reason of India having Kashmir, and if you go by that logioc Pakistan has more moral to defend and protect the muslims of Kashmir.

Balochistani should have a right to decide their futuretoo just like any other people, my prediction is majority of Balochis are pro Pakistani. I don't know.

As for this Hari Singh nonsense cricketjoshilas and others go on about. Well he's long gone, (good riddnance), because that dictator did not respresent and have a right to decide for the whole Kashmiri population. Only the people have.
It should be nothing really to do with Indian or Pak gov's really. Just the people of Kashmir who should decide. (If Indian gov had a right then Pak gov should have been given a right regarding Hyderabad).

 

[cricket4all]

Pakistani state has taken it by force. And manipulation.
Just like it took Baluschistan.

If Pakistan state did take Balochistan by force as you say, then what has this got to do with India? Balochistan and Kashmir aren't related in terms of stakeholders.

 

[drubwrubnat]

Peace is unlikely as the Pakistani Army has a very strong incentive for not letting it happen.

So the best India can do is to isolate its major industries from the continuing low-level war. There are some signs it is succeeding.

"India's got the next big thing in tech, and it could be worth $1 trillion"

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/09/tech/india-software-saas-intl-hnk/index.html

I dont agree with this article, its overhyped.
On a side note -
Did you see todays NYKAA cosmetics listing , its a household startup valued at more than a trillion rupees, this morning. Upcoming this week - sigachi bio, paytm & latent view analytics

 

[drubwrubnat]

If Pakistan state did take Balochistan by force as you say, then what has this got to do with India? Balochistan and Kashmir aren't related in terms of stakeholders.

Agree, we are not a player to Baluchistan in ANY way or form, whatsoever.

 

[DRsohail]

That decision is between people of j and k the govt of India. No?

Or Pakistan is the self appointed leader who thinks it will dictate terms to India regarding what to do?

Ots my personal choice .

 

[SpiritOf1903]

It's all jingoistic bluster

 

[cricketjoshila]

GB had its own princely state. Go look up on the Royal Family of Hunza. As I said, this misinformation will not be tolerated and Mods need to take action on this. [MENTION=93712]MenInG[/MENTION]

No. You are absolutely wrong. GB was part of the Kashmir princely state and leased to British who had a military base there.

 

[ftbno1]

This guy is funny. I am unsure if he is really serious or just a troll looking comments.
+1 comment from my side bro. Whatever gets you through the day

 

[cricketjoshila]

Ots my personal choice .

Ok. Thats different. But when your state says this, its different.

 

[cricketjoshila]

And you have been resorted to ranting on Pakistani platforms. Go spread your propaganda elsewhere. I have much more of a right than him or you and I am able to call out your propaganda and misinformation. Pakistanis have a right to talk about CAA because Kashmir is our territory.

Moreover, as far as Hari Singh is concerned - when the overwhelming population of Kashmir don't respect the state of India, then there is no need to resort to such feeble arguments.

What has CAA got to do with Kashmir?

The Indian flag flies in Srinagar, whether i post on PP or Imran rants on twitter or you claim Kashmir to be yours, that fact will not change.

The ruler of a country signs agreements, and they are legal. So the agreement signed by Hari Singh is legal.

Pakistan will never have a say in kashmir again, that time is gone. Modi has made sure of it.

 

[ftbno1]

What has CAA got to do with Kashmir?

The Indian flag flies in Srinagar, whether i post on PP or Imran rants on twitter or you claim Kashmir to be yours, that fact will not change.

The ruler of a country signs agreements, and they are legal. So the agreement signed by Hari Singh is legal.

Pakistan will never have a say in kashmir again, that time is gone. Modi has made sure of it.

Bhaisahab(I hope I am right as no women will succumb to such blatant propaganda)
Our wonderful secular country which was envy of world 10 years back when has lost all its social fabric.
Our GDP growth is lower than Pakistan and no one seems to be angry about it.
Prices are high.
It feels like our neigbours have started taking our path of liberalism and secularism. While we want our to become Hindu taliban.
Kashmir kahin nahi ja raha. Na UPA ke time par gaya, na devgowda ke time par. Isse rakhna koi achievement nahi hai.
Our government wants us to be engaged in these stupid issues while trying to hide it's mismanagement and incompetence.

 

[Lonewarrior]

[MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION] and others ......


Kashmir remains disputed, UN reminds India

UNITED NATIONS: Two days after India assumed the presidency of the UN Security Council, the spokesperson for the secretary general has clarified that the UN position on the Jammu and Kashmir dispute has not changed.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1638882/kashmir-remains-disputed-un-reminds-india

 

[Romali_rotti]

[MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION] and others ......


Kashmir remains disputed, UN reminds India




https://www.dawn.com/news/1638882/kashmir-remains-disputed-un-reminds-india

Yeah thats nice, so in other words things will remain the way it is going for the next 100 years .

 

[Romali_rotti]

Our wonderful secular country which was envy of world 10 years back when has lost all its social fabric.

Yes India was a nice secular country under the Italian NRI's with our dearest son in law Robert Vadra doing whatever fraud and corruptive activities he wanted.

Puppet mohan singh's strings being pulled by ammayi Sonya whenever she felt like it while she was on the other hand training Raul Puppu how to put on his diapers after taking a poo poo...


Amen... I dream again for the come back of the ITALIAN NRI's to rule India again.

 

[Lonewarrior]

Yeah thats nice, so in other words things will remain the way it is going for the next 100 years .

no, it wont remain same ..... you wana bet ?

 

[LaLoco]

Bhaisahab(I hope I am right as no women will succumb to such blatant propaganda)
Our wonderful secular country which was envy of world 10 years back when has lost all its social fabric.
Our GDP growth is lower than Pakistan and no one seems to be angry about it.
Prices are high.
It feels like our neigbours have started taking our path of liberalism and secularism. While we want our to become Hindu taliban.
Kashmir kahin nahi ja raha. Na UPA ke time par gaya, na devgowda ke time par. Isse rakhna koi achievement nahi hai.
Our government wants us to be engaged in these stupid issues while trying to hide it's mismanagement and incompetence.

This, RSS need anti-Muslim and anti-Pakistan narrative to stay relevant, no matter how many times RSS followers mention Pak army, how loud they get on media, and how they hope to continue to pin people of Pak against the Army of Pak, this remain one of the core reason, if not the most important reason to elect Modi.

Look at the narrative here, some of the RSS followers trying their best albeit unsuccessfully to sell returning of Abhi as Pak weakness when from the beginning of the conflict Pak wanted to de-escalate and to preserve life, at the end, it was poor Indian soldier who lost their lifes, lost their equipment and had to face embarrassment all over the world.

You can't reason with current regime of Hindu Taliban, they want hegemony in the region which is, we all know, is impossible to achieve.

At the end of the day, Hindu Taliban will have no choice but to come to table to talk and look for peace with its neighbor and within India with its minority, it is just matter of time.

The famous quote - "agar 'raphael' hotay tu rejult kuch aur hota"

 

[ftbno1]

What has CAA got to do with Kashmir?

The Indian flag flies in Srinagar, whether i post on PP or Imran rants on twitter or you claim Kashmir to be yours, that fact will not change.

The ruler of a country signs agreements, and they are legal. So the agreement signed by Hari Singh is legal.

Pakistan will never have a say in kashmir again, that time is gone. Modi has made sure of it.

Yes India was a nice secular country under the Italian NRI's with our dearest son in law Robert Vadra doing whatever fraud and corruptive activities he wanted.

Puppet mohan singh's strings being pulled by ammayi Sonya whenever she felt like it while she was on the other hand training Raul Puppu how to put on his diapers after taking a poo poo...


Amen... I dream again for the come back of the ITALIAN NRI's to rule India again.

You are so blinded in your hatred of a party that you can't see anything else if tomorrow Modiji converts to Islam. You will be running to mosque.
I don't give a dammn about Rahul, sonia etxl. Jail them for all I care. But they were judged and thrown out.
Today you refusing to even judge this current government ny shouting pappu, pappu pappu.
How do we become anti national by asking issues same way Anna ji was asking in Delhi.
That's the whole point of democracy.
Yes even with horrendous problems India was respected around the world.
Our economy was growing(not lagging behind Pakistan as it is now).
We were chosen as special one through Indo-US nuclear deal(which BJP opposed).
We used to chastise Bangladeshis for coming here. (Now they have higher per capita GDP)
In every parameter we are going down be it corruption, media freedom, hunger index etc. I don't to know how you find time to look at other countries.

 

[DRsohail]

Ok. Thats different. But when your state says this, its different.

You can't Change state,s stance by lengthy essays.

 

[Napa]

I dont agree with this article, its overhyped.
On a side note -
Did you see todays NYKAA cosmetics listing , its a household startup valued at more than a trillion rupees, this morning. Upcoming this week - sigachi bio, paytm & latent view analytics

It's not overhyped, it is the natural progression. 20 years ago no one would have believed that the Indian IT would be a $200 billion industry in 2021. Similarly people will be surprised by its size in the decades to come.

 

[Napa]

Our GDP growth is lower than Pakistan and no one seems to be angry about it.

You want India which gets FDI of around $100 billion a year

https://www.reuters.com/world/india...t-investment-april-june-2021-govt-2021-08-28/

to be angry by comparing itself to a country that gets FDI of about $1.2 billion a year? )

https://tribune.com.pk/story/2320714/fdi-falls-20-to-203m-in-jul-aug

Our government wants us to be engaged in these stupid issues while trying to hide it's mismanagement and incompetence.

Criticize Modi all you want, it won't make any difference. He remains the most popular global leader among the major democracies and will be re-elected.

https://morningconsult.com/form/global-leader-approval/

 

[drubwrubnat]

It's not overhyped, it is the natural progression. 20 years ago no one would have believed that the Indian IT would be a $200 billion industry in 2021. Similarly people will be surprised by its size in the decades to come.

My friend , 200 b is peanuts still, compared to the manpower invested.

Theres a difference between being a wealth creator & a wealth protector.

This curve will stagnate if india is going to pluck the low hanging fruits of IT services.

Again, this article’s overhyped. I need a refund of the 15 seconds i gave to read it

 

[drubwrubnat]

Why are all Indians missing the point that the lower & insular the FDI and the higher is the role of establishment is,

The more powerful the Pakistani military is .
And the more likely, they will be at their A game

 

[Napa]

Why are all Indians missing the point that the lower & insular the FDI and the higher is the role of establishment is,

The more powerful the Pakistani military is .
And the more likely, they will be at their A game

Modern warfare is all about who has the more sophisticated weapons, and that costs money. Also, if military domination of a country resulted in an “A game” for the Army, then Egypt would have kicked Israel’s behind rather than what actually happened.

 

[Napa]

My friend , 200 b is peanuts still, compared to the manpower invested.

Theres a difference between being a wealth creator & a wealth protector.

This curve will stagnate if india is going to pluck the low hanging fruits of IT services.

Again, this article’s overhyped. I need a refund of the 15 seconds i gave to read it

You didn’t understand the article. It said India was moving up the value chain from the “ low hanging fruits of IT services”.

$200 billion a year is not trivial for a low income country. At the very least it pays for our $100 billion a year oil imports. The entire gdp of the neighboring country with a population of 220 million is $264 billion.

 

[cricketjoshila]

You can't Change state,s stance by lengthy essays.

You can shut the door and stop engaging with them. Thats exactly what has been done?

 

[drubwrubnat]

Modern warfare is all about who has the more sophisticated weapons, and that costs money. Also, if military domination of a country resulted in an “A game” for the Army, then Egypt would have kicked Israel’s behind rather than what actually happened.

Bruh, again your underestimating the dynamics & geopolitics.
War is about alliances, morale & strategy.
And we are lagging in tech tbh.

Again im stressing, Pakistan is a very well endowed & supported & a deep thinking military opponent.

You cant win with Pakistan without losing our own arms & knees. Period.

Somebody needs to solve this Kashmir problem, we both dont deserve to fight forever.

Also, Egypt fought very well in the 6th october war despite its shortcomings, ive spent a few months in cairo/alex to know, there isnt that much of gap between India/Pak as Egypt/Israel.

 

[Napa]

Bruh, again your underestimating the dynamics & geopolitics.
War is about alliances, morale & strategy.
And we are lagging in tech tbh.

Again im stressing, Pakistan is a very well endowed & supported & a deep thinking military opponent.

You cant win with Pakistan without losing our own arms & knees. Period.

Somebody needs to solve this Kashmir problem, we both dont deserve to fight forever.

Also, Egypt fought very well in the 6th october war despite its shortcomings, ive spent a few months in cairo/alex to know, there isnt that much of gap between India/Pak as Egypt/Israel.

You probably swallowed Egyptian propaganda whole while you were there. Israel thrashed them at will. Only Hezbollah among the Arabs has been able to offer any sort of resistance to Israel.

I know you are trolling, but you need to raise the quality of your posts.

 

[ftbno1]

You want India which gets FDI of around $100 billion a year

https://www.reuters.com/world/india...t-investment-april-june-2021-govt-2021-08-28/

to be angry by comparing itself to a country that gets FDI of about $1.2 billion a year? )

https://tribune.com.pk/story/2320714/fdi-falls-20-to-203m-in-jul-aug



Criticize Modi all you want, it won't make any difference. He remains the most popular global leader among the major democracies and will be re-elected.

https://morningconsult.com/form/global-leader-approval/

What I am trying to tell you is that our trajectory is going down under this government iifl failed, yes bank was facing trouble., even central govt. had to use RBI reserves. Dont you see world around you. How many people have lost their job?
Most of fdi goes to top 1℅ while their is ni influx of employment. You saw our health services during corona"Jal Samadhi". What meant was we used to compete with world now we are happy being better than Pakistan in FDI. Come on you can do better than that.
Adolf Hitler was very popular. Putin is popular, Boris Johnson is popular. Only Modi fans can compete with blind loyalty of MAGA crowd(thats why their was such am affinity).
Popularity doesn't make you right. Let BJP rule for 100 years we will never next North Korea.
This will not change the facts.

 

[drubwrubnat]

You didn’t understand the article. It said India was moving up the value chain from the “ low hanging fruits of IT services”.

$200 billion a year is not trivial for a low income country. At the very least it pays for our $100 billion a year oil imports. The entire gdp of the neighboring country with a population of 220 million is $264 billion.

Articles, 1 trick ponies, 1 or 2 replaceable crm Saas products, pipe dreams - are overrated.

 

[Napa]

What I am trying to tell you is that our trajectory is going down under this government iifl failed, yes bank was facing trouble., even central govt. had to use RBI reserves. Dont you see world around you. How many people have lost their job?

You have no idea how capitalist economies work. Individual bankruptcies are common. What matters are the overall numbers. If you read the article about Indian FDI in my previous post you would see that FDI has for Apr-Jun has increased 90% over the previous year, which is a spectacular achievement.

FDI is the best measure for how rapidly an underdeveloped economy is modernizing.

Most of fdi goes to top 1℅ while their is ni influx of employment.

Again, you parade your ignorance of economics. FDI is not for consumption, but for setting up modern industries. These modern industries created by firms like Microsoft, Google, Accenture, numerous auto firms etc. generate well-paying jobs. Just stay away from topics like economics!

You saw our health services during corona"Jal Samadhi". What meant was we used to compete with world now we are happy being better than Pakistan in FDI. Come on you can do better than that.

Ridiculous! You are the one who started the comparison with Pakistan with "Our GDP growth is lower than Pakistan and no one seems to be angry about it".

 

[drubwrubnat]

90% YoY fdi increase - oh wait , last year was covid

 

[Napa]

90% YoY fdi increase - oh wait , last year was covid

Indian FDI actually did fine in 2020.

"India receives $64 billion FDI in 2020, fifth largest recipient of inflows in world: UN"

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...-inflows-in-world-un/articleshow/83708309.cms

 

[Lego20]

Modi haters should rather work on voting Modi out. The right and left around the world are heavily polarized. There is little common ground left. The only strategy left is consolidation. Never ever have politicians found such easily tappable vote banks.

Trump was elected - spent all his years reversing Obama policies. The story is same with Biden.

 

[ExpressPacer]

No. You are absolutely wrong. GB was part of the Kashmir princely state and leased to British who had a military base there.

Go dome some research, as I will again say brother.

 

[drubwrubnat]

Go dome some research, as I will again say brother.

Any opinion on Baluchistan independence as promised by Jinnah

 

[drubwrubnat]

Ive already conceded that both are poor countries.
Also both armies are matched equally more or less, not conventionally - but because of the following -
you have guerilla fighters, and youve got 0 bureaucracy in military, so better leadership, and good strategic stealth tactics ( for ex : your low cost high return ploy in afghanistan ) , and you will have the artificial intelligence soon ( you know how )

Now the question arises -

Both can inflict. Right. I hope you recognise this much.

Are you hell bent on war ? Is it worth fighting?
Or are you being selective?
You have an ulterior motive, is it ?
You want the GeH ?
You can afford GeH ?
This is not a small country folks.
Please be calm & think.
We cant fight forever.

I like how no one has taken any say on my GeH question.

Or is there some insecurity about the facade slipping off ?

 

[Napa]

I like how no one has taken any say on my GeH question.

Or is there some insecurity about the facade slipping off ?

Vat iz GeH?

 

[drubwrubnat]

Vat iz GeH?

The philosophy of Ghazwa e Hind

 

[Abdulm123]

These are the facts:

1) The Pakistani Army dominates the country, with retired generals getting large land grants, top jobs in the industry and more.

2) The Army's domination comes at the cost to the civilians, who are deprived of opportunities taken by the Army. Also, the interference of the Army in civilian life has resulted in a stagnant economy which has been incapable of developing modern industries. This is very apparent from the composition of Pakistan's top exports, which are all low-tech low-value added.

https://www.worldstopexports.com/pakistans-top-10-exports/

View attachment 112974

3) To continue its domination of Pakistan, the Army needs an external enemy. Otherwise the citizens will turn against them, asking "what is your function, why are you getting all these privileges?". Hence, the Army will always find some issue to make India an enemy. The Indian Army on the other hand does not need an external enemy as it doesn't get special privileges (land, top civilian jobs etc.).

Anyone who disagrees with the above 3 points should be able to point out exactly which point is disagreed with, and why?

True, but are you really in the position to speak about problems in Pakistan considering how much problems are in India and its society? people living in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones

 

[ExpressPacer]

The philosophy of Ghazwa e Hind

What about Ghazwa e Hind? It isn't an openly declared policy of the Pakistani government nor does it have any popularity among politicians. I follow politics pretty rigorously and I cannot cite a single instance of any Pakistani politician having mentioned this topic of Ghazwa e Hind.

My personal thoughts on the subject? Well, we ruled you for over around 800 years with you ruling us for a total of 0 years. So, personally, I don't really care if we conquer India again because we have proven (for 800 long years) that we are more than capable. Maybe it is something we can look toward in the future.

 

[drubwrubnat]

What about Ghazwa e Hind? It isn't an openly declared policy of the Pakistani government nor does it have any popularity among politicians. I follow politics pretty rigorously and I cannot cite a single instance of any Pakistani politician having mentioned this topic of Ghazwa e Hind.

My personal thoughts on the subject? Well, we ruled you for over around 800 years with you ruling us for a total of 0 years. So, personally, I don't really care if we conquer India again because we have proven (for 800 long years) that we are more than capable. Maybe it is something we can look toward in the future.

Cool no problem.can you enlighten its etymology
So out of 22 crore people in Pak, right from IK to the pani puri wala feels like this?
I think sub consciously they do.
What do you think?

 

[ExpressPacer]

Cool no problem.can you enlighten its etymology
So out of 22 crore people in Pak, right from IK to the pani puri wala feels like this?
I think sub consciously they do.
What do you think?

I don't think people in Pakistan really care all that much for Ghazwa e Hind. The politicians don't neither does the average bloke because, like I said, we are pretty much satisfied with having ruled you for 800 odd years. We don't have anything to prove.

The average person, including the average politician, does care for Kashmir however. This is because the majority of J&K wants to be with Pakistan or independent. Until a few years ago, the average Pakistani didn't really have any qualms with India either. Those were considered to be things of the past. However, ever since Modi started on its anti-Pak propaganda, people have started to like India much less and less. You can see Pakistan's good will toward India through the opening of Kartarpur corridor.

 

[drubwrubnat]

I don't think people in Pakistan really care all that much for Ghazwa e Hind. The politicians don't neither does the average bloke because, like I said, we are pretty much satisfied with having ruled you for 800 odd years. We don't have anything to prove.

The average person, including the average politician, does care for Kashmir however. This is because the majority of J&K wants to be with Pakistan or independent. Until a few years ago, the average Pakistani didn't really have any qualms with India either. Those were considered to be things of the past. However, ever since Modi started on its anti-Pak propaganda, people have started to like India much less and less. You can see Pakistan's good will toward India through the opening of Kartarpur corridor.

And about the etymology of the word ?
Where does it originate from ?
Any historical references

 

[ExpressPacer]

And about the etymology of the word ?
Where does it originate from ?
Any historical references

You can probably find out by reading a couple of books or spending a couple of hours on the internet looking for objective sources. From my understanding of the subject, there is no single, recent source of the term. For centuries, Muslim rulers have ruled India and captured India. India was a hunting ground because of your weak armies. So much so, different Muslim armies attacked India even when it was being ruled by Muslims, such as the Durranis. So, the term would have originated around then to refer to the capture of India.

 

[ExpressPacer]

And about the etymology of the word ?
Where does it originate from ?
Any historical references

Mind you, I am not glorifying all of the Muslim rulers that have conquered India. Certainly, some of them were tyrants and broke down temples and enforced conversions, such as Aurangzeb. So, I'm not condoning ALL of the tyrants. It is just history that we have ruled you for a long time.

 

[drubwrubnat]

You can probably find out by reading a couple of books or spending a couple of hours on the internet looking for objective sources. From my understanding of the subject, there is no single, recent source of the term. For centuries, Muslim rulers have ruled India and captured India. India was a hunting ground because of your weak armies. So much so, different Muslim armies attacked India even when it was being ruled by Muslims, such as the Durranis. So, the term would have originated around then to refer to the capture of India.

I mean is it indoctrinated in your scripture?

 

[ExpressPacer]

I mean is it indoctrinated in your scripture?

First of all, use more respectful language before your talk about our Holy scriptures. We are not like you who let go of our cultures and respect for our religion licking the boot.

Secondly, as far as I know, Ghazwa-e-Hind is not part of the Quran but do your own research. Don't quote me on this.

 

[drubwrubnat]

First of all, use more respectful language before your talk about our Holy scriptures. We are not like you who let go of our cultures and respect for our religion licking the boot.

Secondly, as far as I know, Ghazwa-e-Hind is not part of the Quran but do your own research. Don't quote me on this.

True i m sorry about that

 

[ExpressPacer]

True i m sorry about that

All good brother. Give respect, get respect. Like I said, it is part of our history but I am not proud of emperors and conquerers who destroyed your Holy temples and forced conversions.

 

[Napa]

True, but are you really in the position to speak about problems in Pakistan considering how much problems are in India and its society? people living in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones

1. Yes, India also has many problems and I discuss those on Indian forums (sometimes) and WhatsApp groups (often). Though per cap GDP has grown, the number of Indians in poverty remains high.

2. I wasn't throwing stones, just trying to present my view of what is happening in Pakistan.

3. What happens in Pakistan is not entirely academic for Indians who are interested in the welfare of their country. If the Pakistani civilians curb their Army, not only will they benefit but also Indians will benefit.

 

[Napa]

What about Ghazwa e Hind? It isn't an openly declared policy of the Pakistani government nor does it have any popularity among politicians. I follow politics pretty rigorously and I cannot cite a single instance of any Pakistani politician having mentioned this topic of Ghazwa e Hind.

My personal thoughts on the subject? Well, we ruled you for over around 800 years with you ruling us for a total of 0 years. So, personally, I don't really care if we conquer India again because we have proven (for 800 long years) that we are more than capable. Maybe it is something we can look toward in the future.

Your knowledge of history is pretty poor. "with you ruling us for a total of 0 years", really? Is that the history you were taught is school?

There were many large Muslim kingdoms in India over the millennia, however there were also many major non-Muslim rulers with Muslims subjects. On this forum itself there was a discussion about what sort of a ruler Ranjit Singh was to his Muslim subjects. The Maratha empire covered most of modern Pakistan and extended till Peshawar. The strength of the most well known Muslim empire, the Mughal Empire lasted only 180 years, from Babur's founding in 1527 to Auranzeb's death in 1707.

I suppose you also believe that the "Indian Hindus" are currently ruling "Kashmiri Muslims". That is however not true, as all Indian citizens including Kashmiris have the same democratic rights and the Indian Constitution treats all religions equally (other than Muslim Personal Law).

 

[ftbno1]

You have no idea how capitalist economies work. Individual bankruptcies are common. What matters are the overall numbers. If you read the article about Indian FDI in my previous post you would see that FDI has for Apr-Jun has increased 90% over the previous year, which is a spectacular achievement.

FDI is the best measure for how rapidly an underdeveloped economy is modernizing.




Again, you parade your ignorance of economics. FDI is not for consumption, but for setting up modern industries. These modern industries created by firms like Microsoft, Google, Accenture, numerous auto firms etc. generate well-paying jobs. Just stay away from topics like economics!



Ridiculous! You are the one who started the comparison with Pakistan with "Our GDP growth is lower than Pakistan and no one seems to be angry about it".

Brother if India is so loaded with FDI where is money going?? Where is influx of well paying jobs you are touting. Every sector is down.
You may condescend all you want but you have to be blind not to see all the problems.
It is because economic activity is down so government needs to put unreal burden on excise of fuels which happens nowhere in the world at our level.
I am pointing out a fact until last quater our GDP was less than Pakistan.
Our per capita is less than Bangladesh.
We are down in hunger index.
Tell me where am I wrong??
My whole hypothesis was we have enough problems on our plate without worrying about Pakistan. You chose to pin point on some of my points to divert from the core one.

 

[ExpressPacer]

Your knowledge of history is pretty poor. "with you ruling us for a total of 0 years", really? Is that the history you were taught is school?

There were many large Muslim kingdoms in India over the millennia, however there were also many major non-Muslim rulers with Muslims subjects. On this forum itself there was a discussion about what sort of a ruler Ranjit Singh was to his Muslim subjects. The Maratha empire covered most of modern Pakistan and extended till Peshawar. The strength of the most well known Muslim empire, the Mughal Empire lasted only 180 years, from Babur's founding in 1527 to Auranzeb's death in 1707.

I suppose you also believe that the "Indian Hindus" are currently ruling "Kashmiri Muslims". That is however not true, as all Indian citizens including Kashmiris have the same democratic rights and the Indian Constitution treats all religions equally (other than Muslim Personal Law).

Will get back to this on the weekend brother. Have an exam tomorrow.

 

[drubwrubnat]

Will get back to this on the weekend brother. Have an exam tomorrow.

Good luck, pretty sure you ll ace it
Esp if its history

 

[ExpressPacer]

Good luck, pretty sure you ll ace it
Esp if its history

Hahah nice jibe bro. But its Criminal law lol

 

[drubwrubnat]

Hahah nice jibe bro. But its Criminal law lol

You know a lawyers job is to lie , by definition
But yeah cheers

 

[Napa]

Will get back to this on the weekend brother. Have an exam tomorrow.

Take your time, no hurry... history won't change even if you delay for years

Good luck with your exam.

 

[street cricketer]

The Ghazwa-e-Hind seems to be a popular belief with quite a few muslims. The other day, on a video about racial and religious divide in Malaysia, a Malaysian muslim (possibly of Indian/Pakistani origin) made a reply under my comment in Youtube about how muslims ruled over the hindus in India in the past and how they will do so once again once he realised I was Indian. Was kinda awkward for me as a tamil because the Chola navy basically ransacked the lands of what's now Malaysia and Indonesia today, but then again, I'm not too proud about that because Malaysia is a more developed country than mine, so whatever happened in the past doesn't really matter.

What many people who take pride in historical events don't realise is that history is not abrupt but is a continuum. What you consider as present now is history for the person 50 or 100 years later. So history of a region or a society or a civilization doesn't stop at 1000 AD or 1100 or 1947. What this really means is that there will be some points in time where one civilization might be at its zenith, but there will be another point in time where it will be in ruins. The easiest example is Afghanistan, where the Afghan kings were some of the strongest conquerors in the past but the land of Afghanistan is in total ruins right now, decades behind most countries in development. Mongolia and China is another example - Mongolian kings raided China for fun in the past, now Mongolia and China are worlds apart in progress as modern civilizations.

Another important thing people think is that the past empire fought under the banners of "Islam" and "Hinduism" when it's just childish thinking based on religious tribalism. If that were so, the numerous hindu kingdoms wouldn't have been squabbling with each other for centuries even before the muslims arrived. This is true for the muslims as well because the Afghan kings often raided muslim kingdoms in India as did invaders like Timur. Afterall, a lot of hindu kingdoms allied with the Mughals to defeat another hindu kingdom. India was easily conquered in the past for the simple reason that India didn't exist in the first place. The subcontinent was just a huge region of numerous warring ethnicities and sub ethnicities. To form a strong empire, the first thing that is important is unification of these numerous tribes and you'll find that most successful conquerors in the past were strong because they united the numerous tribes of their region.

One of the important lessons that the British colonialism and even the past muslim invasions to some extent taught the Indians was that it's easy to be conquered when divided and that's why the Indian union was formed unifying numerous communities, a lot of which are very different to one another in religion, culture and language. India was so easily conquered in the past because India was just a fractured region of numerous individual kingdoms in the past and it will be very hard for any country to conquer and rule India now, muslim or otherwise, because of it's a huge union of unified communities.

 

[drubwrubnat]

The Ghazwa-e-Hind seems to be a popular belief with quite a few muslims.

————
This is a topic which could easily spiral heatedly out of control if both sides donot adhere to civility, however any dishonesty with the subject will also undermine the essence of what Im trying to plod at.

————

Basically, they have been systemically and subconsciously, fed a narrative- which is not only dangerous but needs to be singled out.

GeH is Pakistans ( & no other country whatsoever) no.1 stealth weapon which is intrinsic & ingrained whether in madrasas/ common parlance/ recruitment etc.
i have 0 problems with any ideology but when it effects our well being, we are forced to expose & explore this agenda.

————
Now the legitimacy and authenticity/ validity/ ethinicity of the philosophy itself is a dangerous discussion again which i DONOT want to get into.
————

But it would suffice to say, this is a factor where I say it is the hidden top gun of the Pakistani establishment and to a large extent, the general population.

And very cleverly & insidiously ( again lets not be naive here) , they try to REVERSE pin the blame on us using innocuous talking points like RSS/Modi/Hindutva .

Whereas hindutva is worldly & historically accepted as a harbinger of peace, i mean cmon - when did India ever be an aggresor.

So this is the double speak so to say.

I repeat -
We are not for war but we look out for our self preservation. Peace.

 

[drubwrubnat]

Please refrain from touching any controversial topics. especially for Indians.
As we have seen bro [MENTION=141922]ExpressPacer[/MENTION] the discussion couldve gotten outta hand, and he rightly feels very strongly about this.

 

[street cricketer]

————
This is a topic which could easily spiral heatedly out of control if both sides donot adhere to civility, however any dishonesty with the subject will also undermine the essence of what Im trying to plod at.

————

Basically, they have been systemically and subconsciously, fed a narrative- which is not only dangerous but needs to be singled out.

GeH is Pakistans ( & no other country whatsoever) no.1 stealth weapon which is intrinsic & ingrained whether in madrasas/ common parlance/ recruitment etc.
i have 0 problems with any ideology but when it effects our well being, we are forced to expose & explore this agenda.

————
Now the legitimacy and authenticity/ validity/ ethinicity of the philosophy itself is a dangerous discussion again which i DONOT want to get into.
————

But it would suffice to say, this is a factor where I say it is the hidden top gun of the Pakistani establishment and to a large extent, the general population.

And very cleverly & insidiously ( again lets not be naive here) , they try to REVERSE pin the blame on us using innocuous talking points like RSS/Modi/Hindutva .

Whereas hindutva is worldly & historically accepted as a harbinger of peace, i mean cmon - when did India ever be an aggresor.

So this is the double speak so to say.

I repeat -
We are not for war but we look out for our self preservation. Peace.

Not gonna lie, you had me in the first half

 

[drubwrubnat]

Not gonna lie, you had me in the first half

Like how

 

[street cricketer]

Like how

Irony, that's all.

Anyway, are you aware we have "Akhand Bharat" lunatics of our own on our side of the border?

 

[drubwrubnat]

Irony, that's all.

Anyway, are you aware we have "Akhand Bharat" lunatics of our own on our side of the border?

Bruh, its a realisation which existed before.
Such realisation is still warranted by RSS, but only through mutual consensus. Like Ram Madhav said, if e & w germany can come together, india& Pakistan can come together.

Please bruh, look around you, youre Indian from Chennai right ? RSS always keeps quiet, their position is clear. But this debate is not about Rss, so please

 

[smkk]

Ghazwa e Hind is a prediction coming from our Prophet (peace be upon him) through a Hadith.

The Hadiths are a primary source of guidance in Islam. It is unanimously agreed by Muslims that the authority of the Hadith is second only to that of the Qur’an.

The Hadiths on Ghazwa-e-Hind, according to Mansurpoori, reads: “The Prophet of Allah (peace be upon him) said – ‘Allah has saved two groups of my Ummah from the hellfire; the group that will invade Al-Hind (the subcontinent) and the group that will be with Eesa (Jesus), the son of Mariam.’ Quoting the narration of Abu Hurairah.

According to Mansoorpuri, there are several Hadiths mentioning Ghazwa-e-Hind and its virtues, but the chain of narrators is weak, confusing and relies upon persons who are little known in the authentic collection of Hadith.

The role of the narrator is key in how the Hadiths travelled down the centuries.

It is important to understand how Hadiths were collected and preserved. A Hadith consists of two parts –
the matn (text) and the isnad (chain of the narrator). A text may seem logical and reasonable, but it needs
an authentic isnad with reliable narrators to be acceptable. During the lifetime of the Prophet and after his death, his Companions used to refer to him when quoting his sayings. The Successors (Tabi’un) followed suit; some of them used to quote the Prophet through the Companions, while others would omit the intermediate authority – such a Hadith was known as mursal (loose).

As you can see, there are reasons to doubt about the authenticity of the Hadith.

Regardless, whether the authenticity of the Hadith is strong or weak, the thing is the prediction that the muslim will invade the India have come true(just like the prediction of winning the Constantipole by the muslim). But due to radicals, politians and a particular laal topi in Pakistan, who have got no say or expert in Islamic theology, it is propagated that Ghazwa -e Hind is to come in future, even though Muslim have conquered and ruled India for 800 years.

In modern and present world, it should not have anything to do with either Islam or Muslim.

Only due to politics, this concept had been dug out to score some points on the opponents. Encouraging the present-day Muslims in the Indian sub-continent for Jihad on the basis of the Hadiths concerning Ghazwa al-Hind is completely wrong.

 

[Napa]

Brother if India is so loaded with FDI where is money going?? Where is influx of well paying jobs you are touting. Every sector is down.
You may condescend all you want but you have to be blind not to see all the problems.
It is because economic activity is down so government needs to put unreal burden on excise of fuels which happens nowhere in the world at our level.

If Indians thought the government was managing the economy badly, Modi would not have been the most popular global leader for major democracies.

https://www.newsweek.com/biden-global-approval-ratings-merkel-obrador-modi-1646928

Indian's actually think that given the constraints imposed by the pandemic, Modi has done quite well.

Tell me where am I wrong??

I am pointing out a fact until last quater our GDP was less than Pakistan.

<b>India's 2020 GDP was $2.62 trillion, and Pakistan's was $0.264 trillion.
If you were referring to gdp growth rate, then consider that 3rd quarter 2020 US had a GDP growth rate of -31%. Does that make Pakistan's economy better than US?

https://www.statista.com/statistics...-from-preceding-period-in-real-gdp-in-the-us/

The economics fact is that the pandemic affected the economies of less developed countries like Pakistan less because an economy that is mostly subsistence is not going to lose gdp due to a pandemic.</b>

Our per capita is less than Bangladesh.

<b>Bangladesh produces mainly low-tech low-value added goods like textiles, so its economy did not suffer as much as India's. Also, a more accurate measure is per cap ppp gdp, and India is at $6,390 and Bangladesh at $5,310.





Anyway, Bangladesh has been doing well under Hasina. Those who criticize Modi also hate Hasina with a passion. She is doing a good job, good for Bangladesh.</b>

We are down in hunger index.

<b>GHI does a survey over the telephone, which means it doesn't sample the Indian poor. No clue what it actually surveys.</b>

My whole hypothesis was we have enough problems on our plate without worrying about Pakistan.

We are both here because we are interested in Pakistan

 

[drubwrubnat]

but the chain of narrators is weak, confusing and relies upon persons who are little known in the authentic collection of Hadith.

The role of the narrator is key in how the Hadiths travelled down the centuries.

Regardless, whether the authenticity of the Hadith is strong or weak, the thing is the prediction that the muslim will invade the India have come true(just like the prediction of winning the Constantipole by the muslim). But due to radicals, politians and a particular laal topi in Pakistan, who have got no say or expert in Islamic theology, it is propagated that Ghazwa -e Hind is to come in future, even though Muslim have conquered and ruled India for 800 years.

In modern and present world, it should not have anything to do with either Islam or Muslim.

Only due to politics, this concept had been dug out to score some points on the opponents. Encouraging the present-day Muslims in the Indian sub-continent for Jihad on the basis of the Hadiths concerning Ghazwa al-Hind is completely wrong.

Appreciate the backdrop. This is my point precisely.
Imo, This anti India twisted narrative is instilled into the average Pakistani from an early age. Religion is a great unifier, and Kashmir has now, become a theatre for acheiving this pipe dream of the Pakistani establishment.

They have some superiority complex because they might be fair skinned & maybe they are more of a martial race - im not sure.

Now, the question arises - how to solve this problem

 

[rhony]

There has been a religious war that is being waged for centuries. Christianity vs Islam. Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism are also involved on the side. All the religions consider Islam as the next danger. That's why you see West fighting in Islamic lands, Israel vs Palestine and the Arab world, India vs Pakistan, Buddhists in Mynmar vs Rohingya. Heck, even the godless chinese have slaughtered the Uyghurs. The rest is all just noise. This will not end. The only way is status quo as we have now.

 

[Napa]

There has been a religious war that is being waged for centuries. Christianity vs Islam. Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism are also involved on the side. All the religions consider Islam as the next danger. That's why you see West fighting in Islamic lands, Israel vs Palestine and the Arab world, India vs Pakistan, Buddhists in Mynmar vs Rohingya. Heck, even the godless chinese have slaughtered the Uyghurs. The rest is all just noise. This will not end. The only way is status quo as we have now.

Not quite correct to say the Chinese are "godless". They do have a religion, it is called communism. Party members publicly swear by it, and they know that being seen as good communists is what they need for career advancement. This is similar to a religion.

Communism doesn't tolerate a rival claimant to power, hence the brutal suppression of Islam.

 

[Poseidon]

Ghazwa e Hind is a prediction coming from our Prophet (peace be upon him) through a Hadith.

The Hadiths are a primary source of guidance in Islam. It is unanimously agreed by Muslims that the authority of the Hadith is second only to that of the Qur’an.

The Hadiths on Ghazwa-e-Hind, according to Mansurpoori, reads: “The Prophet of Allah (peace be upon him) said – ‘Allah has saved two groups of my Ummah from the hellfire; the group that will invade Al-Hind (the subcontinent) and the group that will be with Eesa (Jesus), the son of Mariam.’ Quoting the narration of Abu Hurairah.

According to Mansoorpuri, there are several Hadiths mentioning Ghazwa-e-Hind and its virtues, but the chain of narrators is weak, confusing and relies upon persons who are little known in the authentic collection of Hadith.

The role of the narrator is key in how the Hadiths travelled down the centuries.

It is important to understand how Hadiths were collected and preserved. A Hadith consists of two parts –
the matn (text) and the isnad (chain of the narrator). A text may seem logical and reasonable, but it needs
an authentic isnad with reliable narrators to be acceptable. During the lifetime of the Prophet and after his death, his Companions used to refer to him when quoting his sayings. The Successors (Tabi’un) followed suit; some of them used to quote the Prophet through the Companions, while others would omit the intermediate authority – such a Hadith was known as mursal (loose).

As you can see, there are reasons to doubt about the authenticity of the Hadith.

Regardless, whether the authenticity of the Hadith is strong or weak, the thing is the prediction that the muslim will invade the India have come true(just like the prediction of winning the Constantipole by the muslim). But due to radicals, politians and a particular laal topi in Pakistan, who have got no say or expert in Islamic theology, it is propagated that Ghazwa -e Hind is to come in future, even though Muslim have conquered and ruled India for 800 years.

In modern and present world, it should not have anything to do with either Islam or Muslim.

Only due to politics, this concept had been dug out to score some points on the opponents. Encouraging the present-day Muslims in the Indian sub-continent for Jihad on the basis of the Hadiths concerning Ghazwa al-Hind is completely wrong.

Appreciate the backdrop. This is my point precisely.
Imo, This anti India twisted narrative is instilled into the average Pakistani from an early age. Religion is a great unifier, and Kashmir has now, become a theatre for acheiving this pipe dream of the Pakistani establishment.

They have some superiority complex because they might be fair skinned & maybe they are more of a martial race - im not sure.

Now, the question arises - how to solve this problem

not trying to spoil the party, but this part 'the group that will invade Al-Hind (the subcontinent)' is linked and ha related to the Army of Imam mehdi (AS), and the Imam mehdi (AS) have yet to come, its not a tiny subject, and its very long and detailed one , so we cant sum things up in few lines, but what we can understand is that its talking about future.
btw, sunni and shia both are believers of Imam mehdi (AS).

 

[LaLoco]

Appreciate the backdrop. This is my point precisely.
Imo, This anti India twisted narrative is instilled into the average Pakistani from an early age. Religion is a great unifier, and Kashmir has now, become a theatre for acheiving this pipe dream of the Pakistani establishment.

They have some superiority complex because they might be fair skinned & maybe they are more of a martial race - im not sure.

Now, the question arises - how to solve this problem

Kashmir - ask the people of Kashmir, anyone who do not live in Kashmir has no voice.

There is no anti-India narrative, other than Kashmir issue, most Pakistani are taught history about how Jinnah understood that Muslim will always have to live as subserviently to large Hindu population, hence independent nation for the Muslims majority of India.

Recent events in India, political and religious, interaction with Indian Muslims and Hindus, and going by online discussion, Jinnah was absolutely on the money with his fear and prediction.

 

[street cricketer]

Kashmir - ask the people of Kashmir, anyone who do not live in Kashmir has no voice.

There is no anti-India narrative, other than Kashmir issue, most Pakistani are taught history about how Jinnah understood that Muslim will always have to live as subserviently to large Hindu population, hence independent nation for the Muslims majority of India.

Recent events in India, political and religious, interaction with Indian Muslims and Hindus, and going by online discussion, Jinnah was absolutely on the money with his fear and prediction.

Did Jinnah also predict correctly about how minorities would be treated in Pakistan?

 

[drubwrubnat]

Kashmir - ask the people of Kashmir, anyone who do not live in Kashmir has no voice.

There is no anti-India narrative, other than Kashmir issue, most Pakistani are taught history about how Jinnah understood that Muslim will always have to live as subserviently to large Hindu population, hence independent nation for the Muslims majority of India.

Recent events in India, political and religious, interaction with Indian Muslims and Hindus, and going by online discussion, Jinnah was absolutely on the money with his fear and prediction.

Jinnahs ideology is totally cool because that is based on self preservation.

But we have 5 times more population than you, we have an army which is as powerful as you, economy- maybe 5 times, size - 5 times, we are also invested in Kashmir - financially & humanly.

I think in my heart, short of separation, we should be ready to grant Kashmiris anything favourably.

Would you agree to this ?
The key word is SHORT OF SEPARATION

 

[Civil]

This is the perfect time for us Pakistanis to move on from Kashmir and look out for the rest of our country's future. We showed we are willing to stand for territorial integrity with Abhinandan episode

Now Get some concession about less soldiers and better rights in the kashmir valley, swing it as a PR win and accept the status quo borders. Both sides can swing it as a PR win respectively and we need to move on. Kashmiris don't want us... they want independence.

From pak perspective after above move is made:
If Jinnah was right and Modi still exploits Muslim hatred for votes then atleast we got out. And history shows any philosophy focused on hate will collapse in long run.

If jinnah was wrong well there will be even more peace with Kashmir resolved and both economies can grow. So either way we as Pak can move on.

 

[LaLoco]

Did Jinnah also predict correctly about how minorities would be treated in Pakistan?

Up until 70's, most minorities of Pakistan had no significant issue, things got worse for them after 70 due to political reasons and geo-politics of the region.

Jinnah prediction was for hope to have prosperous nation for everyone from every background and Pakistan succeeded at that up until 70's.

Jinnah prediction of then India was on point but looking at current India, we can predict the future India, all the money in the world but filled with hate and violence for their largest minority of India to the point the most educated ones are either looking other way or forced to look other way out of fear.

 

[drubwrubnat]

This is the perfect time for us Pakistanis to move on from Kashmir and look out for the rest of our country's future. We showed we are willing to stand for territorial integrity with Abhinandan episode

Now Get some concession about less soldiers and better rights in the kashmir valley, swing it as a PR win and accept the status quo borders. Both sides can swing it as a PR win respectively and we need to move on. Kashmiris don't want us... they want independence.

From pak perspective after above move is made:
If Jinnah was right and Modi still exploits Muslim hatred for votes then atleast we got out. And history shows any philosophy focused on hate will collapse in long run.

If jinnah was wrong well there will be even more peace with Kashmir resolved and both economies can grow. So either way we as Pak can move on.

I recognise that even this may eventually fail because war can be started at any time irrespective of any agreement.

Im appreciative that you point out this important thing
“And history shows any philosophy focused on hate will collapse in long run.”

Good to know, of course, it should be worked out structurally with 1001 caveats for mutual trust between all 3 parties - india/Pakistan/j&k.

 

[drubwrubnat]

A proper structure is required for safeguarding Kashmiri rights.

There could be a signed framework with a 9-12 escalation matrix, i.e. special committees along with 4 neutral envoys of non neighbouring countries like Bolivia, Switzerland etc. to intervene for violations for above level 6 violations.

 

[Civil]

I recognise that even this may eventually fail because war can be started at any time irrespective of any agreement.

Im appreciative that you point out this important thing
“And history shows any philosophy focused on hate will collapse in long run.”

Good to know, of course, it should be worked out structurally with 1001 caveats for mutual trust between all 3 parties - india/Pakistan/j&k.

Even the war cries and possibility of war would die down faster than one would think. If they manage the PR (saving face part) good on both sides of border it would die down quick.

Look it was an Indian poster once here (I can't recall who) ...who once compared this Kashmir argument to aunties swinging purses. That always sticks with me. If politicians and PR agrees to get off this gravy train, the people themselves will willingly oblige as they are not fighters by nature. Thousands of years of Himalayas and desert have shielded us and bred us into a gossip mongering shame culture that creates its own fictional reality.

My experience from abroad no one avoids an actual fist fight like people from the subcontinent.
However no one is also more attracted to mob riot/strength in numbers where less chance of self harm like people from subcontinent.

Here's wishing you a peaceful future.