What is Shadab Khan's role in Tests?

[Junaids]

In another thread that I started - about captaincy - I have been taken to task for consideration of Shadab Khan.

"He's not a frontline spinner" say some people.

"He's not a Test quality batsman" say the same people.

And they are right. But to me that does not negate his value to the Test team.

Consider the cases of Danish Kaneria and Shahid Afridi.

The two men were exact contemporaries.

Kaneria took 261 wickets in 61 Tests at an average of 34.79.
If you exclude matches against Bangladesh, Kaneria took 227 wickets in 56 Tests at an average of 37.55.
Afridi took 48 wickets in 27 Tests at an average of 35.60.
Afridi never played against Bangladesh.

But Shahid Afridi also scored nearly 2000 runs a an average of 36.51.

My argument is that Shahid Afridi was just as good a bowler as Danish Kaneria but was also an authentic Test batsman when he could be bothered to knuckle down. Against India he hit 3 centuries and 3 fifties in 8 Test matches.

Bob Woolmer commented in 2007 - not long before his death - that he wished he could have just played Afridi as his main spinner outside Asia with four quicks.

Outside Asia it is generally enough to have a Moeen Ali style spinner as your sole spinner - someone who is not really a frontline spinner but who is almost a Test class batsman. Dom Bess has not even bowled a single ball in 2 of the 5 Tests that he has played this English summer.

Outside Asia I am not convinced that I want a Yasir Shah style spinner to average 36 with the ball and 17 with the bat. I would rather have a Moeen Ali figure averaging 29 with the bat and 37 with the ball.

And this is where I see Shadab Khan's role for Pakistan.

He is an all-rounder who is a strong second spinner but is not a frontline spinner.

Outside Asia, that's probably more useful than being a frontline spinner who can bat a little.

And in Asia, if the conditions are spin-friendly, then play one or two finger spinners as well. Ashwin and Jadeja are both finger-spinners who can bat, and Sajid Khan and Zafar Gohar could play their roles at numbers 8 or 9 anyway.

The greatest England captain of my lifetime was Ray Illingworth. When I was just a toddler he took England to Australia in 1970-71 and won The Ashes convincingly.

But Illingworth was exactly what Shadab Khan is. An all-rounder who was a second spinner but who had a fighting character and was a leader.

In 61 Tests, Illingworth averaged 23.24 with the bat and took just 122 wickets, at an average of 31.20.

But if you look back at the 1970-71 Ashes, and most of Illy's Test career, you see the same pattern.

Like Pakistan with Mohammad Rizwan, England had a keeper in Alan Knott who could bat at 6. And playing Illy at 7 left open the option of playing 4 quicks - which they did in SENA - or having an extra spinner in Asia.

That's where Shadab Khan has his role for Pakistan. Batting below Rizwan, at Number 7.

In SENA he is probably the sole spinner required, because he allows 4 quicks to play. And in Asia his job as a spin bowler would be to support Zafar Gohar or Sajid Khan and the quicks.

I do not accept that an all-rounder has to be as good as a specialist in batting or bowling.

If a spin-bowling all-rounder at Number 7 can do the following, what's the problem?

50 runs per Test at an average of 33.33
2.4 wickets per Test at an average of 36.64.

Those are Shadab's actual career Test statistics - at the age of 21.

As a batsman, those figures are better than Azhar Ali and Asad Shafiq in the same 6 Test matches.

And as a bowler his average of 36.64 outside Asia is barely different to Yasir Shah's 35.80.

All that matters with an all-rounder is the sum of the parts. It's absurd to compare them to a batting or bowling specialist.

 

[Teshi98]

In another thread that I started - about captaincy - I have been taken to task for consideration of Shadab Khan.

"He's not a frontline spinner" say some people.

"He's not a Test quality batsman" say the same people.

And they are right. But to me that does not negate his value to the Test team.

Consider the cases of Danish Kaneria and Shahid Afridi.

The two men were exact contemporaries.

Kaneria took 261 wickets in 61 Tests at an average of 34.79.
If you exclude matches against Bangladesh, Kaneria took 227 wickets in 56 Tests at an average of 37.55.
Afridi took 48 wickets in 27 Tests at an average of 35.60.
Afridi never played against Bangladesh.

But Shahid Afridi also scored nearly 2000 runs a an average of 36.51.

My argument is that Shahid Afridi was just as good a bowler as Danish Kaneria but was also an authentic Test batsman when he could be bothered to knuckle down. Against India he hit 3 centuries and 3 fifties in 8 Test matches.

Bob Woolmer commented in 2007 - not long before his death - that he wished he could have just played Afridi as his main spinner outside Asia with four quicks.

Outside Asia it is generally enough to have a Moeen Ali style spinner as your sole spinner - someone who is not really a frontline spinner but who is almost a Test class batsman. Dom Bess has not even bowled a single ball in 2 of the 5 Tests that he has played this English summer.

Outside Asia I am not convinced that I want a Yasir Shah style spinner to average 36 with the ball and 17 with the bat. I would rather have a Moeen Ali figure averaging 29 with the bat and 37 with the ball.

And this is where I see Shadab Khan's role for Pakistan.

He is an all-rounder who is a strong second spinner but is not a frontline spinner.

Outside Asia, that's probably more useful than being a frontline spinner who can bat a little.

And in Asia, if the conditions are spin-friendly, then play one or two finger spinners as well. Ashwin and Jadeja are both finger-spinners who can bat, and Sajid Khan and Zafar Gohar could play their roles at numbers 8 or 9 anyway.

The greatest England captain of my lifetime was Ray Illingworth. When I was just a toddler he took England to Australia in 1970-71 and won The Ashes convincingly.

But Illingworth was exactly what Shadab Khan is. An all-rounder who was a second spinner but who had a fighting character and was a leader.

In 61 Tests, Illingworth averaged 23.24 with the bat and took just 122 wickets, at an average of 31.20.

But if you look back at the 1970-71 Ashes, and most of Illy's Test career, you see the same pattern.

Like Pakistan with Mohammad Rizwan, England had a keeper in Alan Knott who could bat at 6. And playing Illy at 7 left open the option of playing 4 quicks - which they did in SENA - or having an extra spinner in Asia.

That's where Shadab Khan has his role for Pakistan. Batting below Rizwan, at Number 7.

In SENA he is probably the sole spinner required, because he allows 4 quicks to play. And in Asia his job as a spin bowler would be to support Zafar Gohar or Sajid Khan and the quicks.

I do not accept that an all-rounder has to be as good as a specialist in batting or bowling.

If a spin-bowling all-rounder at Number 7 can do the following, what's the problem?

50 runs per Test at an average of 33.33
2.4 wickets per Test at an average of 36.64.

Those are Shadab's actual career Test statistics - at the age of 21.

As a batsman, those figures are better than Azhar Ali and Asad Shafiq in the same 6 Test matches.

And as a bowler his average of 36.64 outside Asia is barely different to Yasir Shah's 35.80.

All that matters with an all-rounder is the sum of the parts. It's absurd to compare them to a batting or bowling specialist.

261 in 61 or roughly 110 tests in 27 matches is equivalent to 48 wickets in 37 matches??

And role of Shadab Khan in tests is to ensure that you keep coming up with new threads and same message again and again.

 

[Mamoon]

What is Shadab Khan's role in Tests?

Overacting in the field for the cameras.

 

[Ab Fan]

I like Shadab. He is good for a mid tier cricket nation like Pakistan.

 

[Junaids]

I like Shadab. He is good for a mid tier cricket nation like Pakistan.

He would be an automatic selection in every Test team except for Australia and India.

 

[Zaz]

He would be an automatic selection in every Test team except for Australia and India.

No he wouldnt lets not exaggerate

 

[IMMY69]

Steve Smith started his test career as a leg spinner batting at 7 or 8...
Look where is now?

Players can turn out to be better in a different role, then what they started out as.
Whilst I'm not writing his bowling off in test matches, I don't think anyone can dispute that Shadab has started off reasonably well as a batsman... He knows how to make runs at a decent click and could easily improve his position in the order.

However, for this to happen he has to be playing, especially in place of those that are performing worse than he is.

 

[Omer2002]

He needs to.improve big time if he wants to be considered as a spinner ..he could play as a second spinner in sub continent but i wouldnt agree playing 2 leggies

 

[Amjid Javed]

I think Shadab if he works on his batting further is capable of making himself into a fairly decent number 6 or 7 batsmen. I think the fact he can turn his arm over in test cricket should be seen as a bonus.

Lets be honest what other real options are out there for a number 6/7 batsmen who can bowl a bit? So i dont see why he can not be persisted with for a bit longer.

 

[ask_analyse_act]

He has scored more runs than asad and azhar outside asia in tough conditions

To me he is a qualified test batsman at no.6 or 7 and with his spin he is good enough to take 1 or 2 wickets in an inns outside asia.

His contribution to the tests is totally neglected. Because the think tank is not good enough think

 

[ask_analyse_act]

Asad and azhar ali without performing for the last 3 years still holding onto their respectice position like kings of the team. Kick these two out asap.

 

[Kaka4pope]

Better bet for runs than many of our batsmen - an indictment of where Pak batting is but nonetheless he’s capable at 6/7.

At 21 he’s a good cricketer, who actually has improved, certainly batting, in recent years.

Stick with him I say, home and abroad.

 

[Junaids]

No he wouldnt lets not exaggerate

Santner?
Bess?
Cornwall?
Maharaj?

Shadab would walk into all those teams.

 

[anikrc1]

Santner?
Bess?
Cornwall?
Maharaj?

Shadab would walk into all those teams.

England has moeen and leach. Leach is a better bowler than shadab. And moeen is better with both bat and ball. And if you think shadab is better than maharaj, i don't know what to say. Guy was owning smith in his debut

 

[MMHS]

He would be an automatic selection in every Test team except for Australia and India.

He won’t get into Bangladesh Test team for sure, can’t say about others though.

 

[MMHS]

Shadab can make a Test career if only he improves one of his batting or bowling keeping other skill intact. At this moment, just for the balance, he is useless - PAK can get better value for the same role from Saud or Fakhar; not to mention Haris who is subject to permanent injury threat.

 

[Junaids]

He won’t get into Bangladesh Test team for sure, can’t say about others though.

Yes, on reflection you’re quite right.

Because Shakib is what I think that Shadab can become.

 

[Junaids]

Shadab can make a Test career if only he improves one of his batting or bowling keeping other skill intact. At this moment, just for the balance, he is useless - PAK can get better value for the same role from Saud or Fakhar; not to mention Haris who is subject to permanent injury threat.

That’s a rather dubious assertion.

Fakhar was an unmitigated disaster as a Test batsman while Shadab was averaging 52. And Haris and Saud are completely lacking in Shadab’s ability to perform as a sole spinner in SENA - which he has done perfectly well in 4 Tests so far.

 

[Mamoon]

Yes, on reflection you’re quite right.

Because Shakib is what I think that Shadab can become.

If that is what you think, you are only setting up yourself for disappointment. Shadab will not become Shakib even if he has three lives.

 

[MMHS]

Yes, on reflection you’re quite right.

Because Shakib is what I think that Shadab can become.

First he needs to cross Miraz though .....

 

[Hasan123]

Not good enough to bat in the top 6. Not good enough to play as a specialist spinner. There is no role for him right now.

 

[MMHS]

That’s a rather dubious assertion.

Fakhar was an unmitigated disaster as a Test batsman while Shadab was averaging 52. And Haris and Saud are completely lacking in Shadab’s ability to perform as a sole spinner in SENA - which he has done perfectly well in 4 Tests so far.

It’s four Test only hence you are still here - you should hope that it doesn’t go for many. Remember, a year or so back I wrote something similar when you were selling Faheem Ashraf over Jason Holder.

I have nothing against Shadab, but haven’t seen any cricketer ever to last long with bat a little, bowl a little skills. Illingworth had 2000+ FC wickets at 20 - he wasn’t required to bowl that many Test overs for England of 1960s & 70s - Shadab’s context is different - any player picked to bowl spin for PAK has to be trusted for 35 overs at least (per Test), otherwise he has to reach Amir Sohail or Wasim Raza’s level with bat (forget either Mushtaq - in his seventh life Shadab won’t be there).

If you really want him to flourish, instead blowing same trumpet of his bowling heroics in one Test at J’burg (I have given you enough explanations regarding his bowling heroics against Ireland, I believe), try to come up with posts that could give him a clue about how to develop one core skill. He is not moving anywhere if you think that 45 runs and 2 wickets will keep him in PAK Test squad.

 

[Last Monetarist]

Yasir's spell today underscores why it's ludicrous to expect Shadab to perform the same role. Now Yasir can potentially end up with figures of 3 for 120 in this innings but his contribution is streets away from the part-time overs that Shadab can offer. If Shadab was playing as part of a quartet then there is a high probability that one of the fast bowlers would have been injured due to the load.

Shadab needs to become good enough at one specialist facet of the game before being considered as a regular test player. At this stage, he is just a glorified T20 specialist.

 

[Junaids]

Yasir's spell today underscores why it's ludicrous to expect Shadab to perform the same role. Now Yasir can potentially end up with figures of 3 for 120 in this innings but his contribution is streets away from the part-time overs that Shadab can offer. If Shadab was playing as part of a quartet then there is a high probability that one of the fast bowlers would have been injured due to the load.

Shadab needs to become good enough at one specialist facet of the game before being considered as a regular test player. At this stage, he is just a glorified T20 specialist.

But who needed that role?

Yasir came on after 10 overs because the attack should have had a fourth quick but didn’t!

 

[Greenstorm]

Zafar Gohar is a better option than Shadab or Yasir. He would have been lethal on this track.

 

[coy0607]

Zafar Gohar is a better option than Shadab or Yasir. He would have been lethal on this track.

He'll get his chance after age 32. Doesn't have enough experience right now

 

[Greenstorm]

He'll get his chance after age 32. Doesn't have enough experience right now

Yes, he doesn't fall in misbah's budha or bacha category. Shadab has also been dropped because of that.

 

[Firebat]

Azhar Ali: “All-rounders create balance ... Shadab also performed really well in the first Test but we had to bench him due to conditions, his performance didn’t warrant that. We are close to finding the right balance but we’re not there yet. Rizwan’s performances show that we can consider him at #6. Shadab as an AR has shown he’s good enough for #7."

Clearly Azhar sees a role for Shadab going forward as an allrounder at #7, and from the sound of it, he might not even have agreed with the decision to bench him.

 

[shamaan]

Azhar Ali: “All-rounders create balance ... Shadab also performed really well in the first Test but we had to bench him due to conditions, his performance didn’t warrant that. We are close to finding the right balance but we’re not there yet. Rizwan’s performances show that we can consider him at #6. Shadab as an AR has shown he’s good enough for #7."

Clearly Azhar sees a role for Shadab going forward as an allrounder at #7, and from the sound of it, he might not even have agreed with the decision to bench him.

I would in future play rizwan at 5 and haider at 6 shadab at 7

 

[shamaan]

Zafar Gohar is a better option than Shadab or Yasir. He would have been lethal on this track.

Yes pretty much every fan is stating this dunno why he doesnt get picked

 

[shamaan]

Not good enough to bat in the top 6. Not good enough to play as a specialist spinner. There is no role for him right now.

Is he good enough at 7 ?

 

[Khan12]

First he needs to cross Miraz though .....

Miraz averages 58 with the ball and 14 with the bat away. I know who I would be picking.

 

[Khan12]

Need shadab at 7 and zafar at 8 in Asia. While in SENA amad butt or amir yamin should replace zafar gohar or shadab depending on the pitch. If its a spinning then zafar if not then shadab. Plus we need to get saud shakeel in ASAP instead of garbage shafiq. He can give us few overs too.

 

[shamaan]

Need shadab at 7 and zafar at 8 in Asia. While in SENA amad butt or amir yamin should replace zafar gohar or shadab depending on the pitch. If its a spinning then zafar if not then shadab. Plus we need to get saud shakeel in ASAP instead of garbage shafiq. He can give us few overs too.

Saud shakeel is decent but you reakon hes better than abdullah shafique omiar bin yousuf haider ali

 

[Khan12]

He's better then them because he's played a few seasons already plus now a perfect age for him to debut. He is more ready then them 3. It doesn't mean that them 3 are not good they all will inshallah have good careers. I have hig hopes from Abdullah shafique and Haider ali while omair bin yousuf I see as a test specialist.

 

[ShahidDar08]

Shadab Khan is useless in tests. He should play 2-3 complete Quaid e Azam trophies and build his skills.

 

[Hasan123]

Is he good enough at 7 ?

If Yasir is conceding 200 runs . Imagine how many Shadab will concede. Also I don't think the captains so far trust him to bowl a lot of overs.

 

[Titan24]

Played an impactful knock in the first test when Pak was struggling at 170 odd for 5. Standing up when the team is down is a big positive in my eyes, he needs to polish his bowling more though. Could have easily played in the following tests as well and would have been helpful in the last test when Pak didnt have any good 5th bowling option to support the main bowlers in that long innings.

 

[shaz619]

Clearly not good enough to replace Yasir Shah remotely who was Pakistan's best bowler of the series but as per usual was let down by bowling at their other end and poor fields from his captain

 

[MMHS]

Miraz averages 58 with the ball and 14 with the bat away. I know who I would be picking.

Miraz has 90 wickets in 22 Tests with 7 5fors & 2 10fors - if away stats is a filter then Yasir shouldn’t be considered even as a spinner.

 

[Buffet]

But who needed that role?

Yasir came on after 10 overs because the attack should have had a fourth quick but didn’t!

Spinners don't come to bowl in over 10 if you have 3 quicks unless quicks are useless. Between 3 quicks, if you can't even bowl first 20 overs in Eng on the first session of a test match then the problem is with the quality of quicks and not with number of quicks.

 

[MMHS]

Spinners don't come to bowl in over 10 if you have 3 quicks unless quicks are useless. Between 3 quicks, if you can't even bowl first 20 overs in Eng on the first session of a test match then the problem is with the quality of quicks and not with number of quicks.

For PAK, it was more applicable because their work horse didn’t fail. If it was a case that Abbas is leaking runs, it was understandable.

At the start of innings, ideally, Abbas & Shaheen can start with 10 overs (5+5) spells with Shaheen bowling with wind behind. Then change Shaheen with Naseem & another 6 overs - that’s 8 by Abbas from one end with new ball. Replace Abbas with Shaheen now for another spell of 4-5 overs - 2 with Naseem from other end (who bowls 5 in opening spell), and then bring back Abbas to bowl 4-5 more this time with wind to assist his workload, and last 3 by Naseem, coming back after 30 minutes rest to replace Shaheen

That’s: Over No.
1, 3, 5, 7, 9: Shaheen
2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16: Abbas
11, 13, 15, 17, 19: Naseem
18, 20, 22, 24: Shaheen
21, 23, 25, 27, 29: Abbas.
26, 28, 30: Naseem

If an over or two is still possible,!may be Yasir can come just before the session end. After 40 minutes break, again a long spell from Abbas, and two short bursts by the other two. Finally, Yasir replaces Abbas for the heavy duty (you don’t need to make Abbas work after around 35-38th over - he can rest for 3 hours till second ball is available) from one end.

This is considering that PAK will start bowling at the start of a session & plan for 120 minutes with 30 overs, which will never happen with three pacers bowling, (max can be 28 overs) - if they start middle of a session, it’ll be even smoother.

If the bowlers were any good - in first innings, by 40th over, England should be 4-5 down, now Yasir bowling tight from one end and keep scoring rate tight - second ball should kill them by 256...... to PAK’s advantage, this guy Yasir actually gave break through inside 35 overs few times.

 

[Saj]

Spoke with Azhar Mahmood and he thinks Shadab deserves more chances in Test cricket and shouldn't have been dropped after the 1st Test.

 

[Buffet]

For PAK, it was more applicable because their work horse didn’t fail. If it was a case that Abbas is leaking runs, it was understandable.

At the start of innings, ideally, Abbas & Shaheen can start with 10 overs (5+5) spells with Shaheen bowling with wind behind. Then change Shaheen with Naseem & another 6 overs - that’s 8 by Abbas from one end with new ball. Replace Abbas with Shaheen now for another spell of 4-5 overs - 2 with Naseem from other end (who bowls 5 in opening spell), and then bring back Abbas to bowl 4-5 more this time with wind to assist his workload, and last 3 by Naseem, coming back after 30 minutes rest to replace Shaheen

That’s: Over No.
1, 3, 5, 7, 9: Shaheen
2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16: Abbas
11, 13, 15, 17, 19: Naseem
18, 20, 22, 24: Shaheen
21, 23, 25, 27, 29: Abbas.
26, 28, 30: Naseem

If an over or two is still possible,!may be Yasir can come just before the session end. After 40 minutes break, again a long spell from Abbas, and two short bursts by the other two. Finally, Yasir replaces Abbas for the heavy duty (you don’t need to make Abbas work after around 35-38th over - he can rest for 3 hours till second ball is available) from one end.

This is considering that PAK will start bowling at the start of a session & plan for 120 minutes with 30 overs, which will never happen with three pacers bowling, (max can be 28 overs) - if they start middle of a session, it’ll be even smoother.

If the bowlers were any good - in first innings, by 40th over, England should be 4-5 down, now Yasir bowling tight from one end and keep scoring rate tight - second ball should kill them by 256...... to PAK’s advantage, this guy Yasir actually gave break through inside 35 overs few times.

Most teams follow similar path when they have 3 good pacers in pitch assisting pacers. They don't start bowling spinner in 10th over. I used 20 over as minimum, but most teams will bowl pacers in rotation for longer. Yasir actually picked some early wickets, but two young pacers were not really bowling well and gave too many hit me balls. Lack of 4th quick was not an issue here. Issue was quality of bowlers who were already playing.

 

[Khan12]

Miraz has 90 wickets in 22 Tests with 7 5fors & 2 10fors - if away stats is a filter then Yasir shouldn’t be considered even as a spinner.

If you are looking for someone with batting then it's shadab as for bowling it's miraz. A bit unfair saying shadab has to get past miraz to get in. They both have different roles. Though what do you think of miraz batting? He hasn't fulfilled the promise he showed so far. Far batter then to be averaging in 15 odd.

 

[Swing]

He is a bits and pieces player but he is good for us. If I could have my way, I'd have dropped Asad Shafiq for him for the whole series.

 

[shamaan]

If you are looking for someone with batting then it's shadab as for bowling it's miraz. A bit unfair saying shadab has to get past miraz to get in. They both have different roles. Though what do you think of miraz batting? He hasn't fulfilled the promise he showed so far. Far batter then to be averaging in 15 odd.

Never heard of miraz how old is he and is he spinner or fast bowler

 

[shamaan]

If Yasir is conceding 200 runs . Imagine how many Shadab will concede. Also I don't think the captains so far trust him to bowl a lot of overs.

He should play at number 7 batting all rounder and then have fahim as a bowling all rounder and then 3 out and out fast bowlers if in sena that gives you 4 man pace attack with
The option of shadab to bowl 15-20 overs in asain conditions gohar needs to be given a chance

 

[Infinitee786]

Best fielder in the side. Young energetic and intelligent.
His bowling is of a decent standard although it can be improved. He can hold a bat too. We saw the significance of Woakes in the first test match and we need someone in the lower order to hold the fort and not make our tail flap.

Definitely one for the future. He’s coming along nicely and is improving. As long as he keeps his head down and works hard he will get more opportunities to prove his worth.

All in all, provides good spinning options with his leggy and googly. Strengthens our lower order and batting and easily the best fielder in the side. He reminds of Jonty Rhodes in a sense when he fields at point. Pakistani fielding has always been shambolic so he’s a breath of fresh air

 

[Prince of Pakistan]

Batting allrounder.

His batting has a lot of potential. Just needs to play more First class cricket. You cannot improve your technique with T20 cricket. Batting temperament can only be improved by batting for hours.

He is a decent 2nd spinner as well. Shadab's inclusion made a big difference in the first test. Pak looked a lot better with Shadab in it.

Needs to play more First class and show he can bat at 6 in the future. Hopefully he'll have that hunger to improve. Only talent won't get you far in international cricket.

 

[Hasan123]

He should play at number 7 batting all rounder and then have fahim as a bowling all rounder and then 3 out and out fast bowlers if in sena that gives you 4 man pace attack with
The option of shadab to bowl 15-20 overs in asain conditions gohar needs to be given a chance

Shadab and Faheem in the same team won't work trust me.

If Shadab wants to make it at test level, he should concentrate on being good enough to play as a specialist spinner or good enough to bat in the top 6.

Bits and pieces cricketers don't work in tests.

 

[shamaan]

Shadab and Faheem in the same team won't work trust me.

If Shadab wants to make it at test level, he should concentrate on being good enough to play as a specialist spinner or good enough to bat in the top 6.

Bits and pieces cricketers don't work in tests.

But it worked in the last tour against england

 

[Hasan123]

But it worked in the last tour against england

Didn't work against South Africa and I can assure you it would not have made a difference in this series.

 

[Junaids]

Clearly not good enough to replace Yasir Shah remotely who was Pakistan's best bowler of the series but as per usual was let down by bowling at their other end and poor fields from his captain

But Yasir Shah is being used in a role that is not required in SENA.

Look at the posts of [MENTION=9]Saj[/MENTION] and [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] .

They correctly identify that you can use Yasir Shah for long spells in England and it goes OK.

But the thing is, it doesn't go as well as playing a fourth quick. Not at all.

Yasir Shah and Shadab Khan were the two Pakistan bowlers with the worst economy rates in these Tests - worse than Shaheen but even worse than Naseem Shah.

I fully accept that Yasir Shah can be a poor stock bowler in SENA and that Shadab Khan would be even worse.

But I don't want a spinner bowling lots of overs in SENA - because unless you are Shane Warne it doesn't work. It didn't even work for Saeed Ajmal in 2010.

In SENA I want four quicks and a part-time spinner who is 80% of the quality of an extra batsman, but can dismiss the tail and take some wickets in the Fourth Innings. I want a Moeen Ali, not a Graeme Swann. (Pakistan hasn't got the batting to accommodate 4 quicks plus a Swann.)

In Asia I'm open to Yasir Shah playing instead of the fourth quick, or possibly Zafar Gohar or Sajid Khan as I don't really want two leggies.

But look at Yasir Shah's awful economy rate in SENA. I don't want a leggie instead of my fourth quick. He releases too much pressure.

England got away when Zak Crawley hit his 267 because they managed to hit Yasir Shah for 4.43 runs per over - they didn't even reach that rate against Fawad Alam and Asad Shafiq and Shan Masood.

I used to be a poor leggie. We are not really economy machines. Not even people of MacGill quality.

 

[MMHS]

If you are looking for someone with batting then it's shadab as for bowling it's miraz. A bit unfair saying shadab has to get past miraz to get in. They both have different roles. Though what do you think of miraz batting? He hasn't fulfilled the promise he showed so far. Far batter then to be averaging in 15 odd.

Bro, no issues - I have said it many times - Shadab can’t cut it either as batsman or bowler and I don’t like players in duel capacity - they won’t last under pressure because not good in any skill. Miraz didn’t improve on batting but on turners, he is absolute match winner - has 6 5fors in like 15 Tests and couple of 10fors that win both Tests. On turning wickets, he will be one of first picks as he can bat also and wicket taking option (his SR is around 58 - in dust bowl it’s like top fast bowlers 48-49).

Shadab has to cut it with ball, otherwise he won’t make my Test team... he is not going to be Steve Smith either

 

[MMHS]

But Yasir Shah is being used in a role that is not required in SENA.

Look at the posts of [MENTION=9]Saj[/MENTION] and [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] .

They correctly identify that you can use Yasir Shah for long spells in England and it goes OK.

But the thing is, it doesn't go as well as playing a fourth quick. Not at all.

Yasir Shah and Shadab Khan were the two Pakistan bowlers with the worst economy rates in these Tests - worse than Shaheen but even worse than Naseem Shah.

I fully accept that Yasir Shah can be a poor stock bowler in SENA and that Shadab Khan would be even worse.

But I don't want a spinner bowling lots of overs in SENA - because unless you are Shane Warne it doesn't work. It didn't even work for Saeed Ajmal in 2010.

In SENA I want four quicks and a part-time spinner who is 80% of the quality of an extra batsman, but can dismiss the tail and take some wickets in the Fourth Innings. I want a Moeen Ali, not a Graeme Swann. (Pakistan hasn't got the batting to accommodate 4 quicks plus a Swann.)

In Asia I'm open to Yasir Shah playing instead of the fourth quick, or possibly Zafar Gohar or Sajid Khan as I don't really want two leggies.

But look at Yasir Shah's awful economy rate in SENA. I don't want a leggie instead of my fourth quick. He releases too much pressure.

England got away when Zak Crawley hit his 267 because they managed to hit Yasir Shah for 4.43 runs per over - they didn't even reach that rate against Fawad Alam and Asad Shafiq and Shan Masood.

I used to be a poor leggie. We are not really economy machines. Not even people of MacGill quality.

I might have agreed with your post, if PAK had the pace resources, which unfortunately is not there. You may hype the fast bowlers but reality is in total they took 7 wickets in two Tests in Australia..... and Wasim alone took 19 in two in 1990. I am the one suggesting here that PAK should have gone for the last two Tests with five specialist bowlers because at the end of the day, they are trailing 0-1 and need to take 20 wickets, therefore you don’t need to explain me time & again.

The issue is with the quality of fifth bowler - just the way you put data here to fit your arguments, I can also say that PAK should go with seven batsmen as batting is the weak point and two batting “all-rounder” Fawad & Asad took 3/70 or so - that’s average of 23, better than any bowler.

Those stats you show for Faheem as 5th bowler has no significance in this context for those who understand cricket - in UK, late May/early June, you don’t compare seemers stats, that too after two new ball bowlers made significant damage. Yasir is being used here too much because of bowling limitations, not for choice. His economy was higher once ENG put a long partnership, both batsmen went after him - had the pacers bowled that many overs, Butler also would have hit a double with same number of balls.

Anyway, I have decided not to explain you again in this regard - I’ll just bump your threads going forward to start discussion; you are very good at opening new thread and divert your previous logic. PAK doesn’t have the quality to effectively operate with four pacers - be it in England or Australia; the day it reaches there, you won’t need to explain, I myself will suggest that. Last time, I did that for at least one month before SAF tour, that at Centurion & PE, PAK should rest Yasir & play four pacers - Mickey Arthur played Yasir and a half fit Abbas.

 

[Junaids]

[MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION]
You argue that Pakistan hasn’t got 4 quicks to pair with Shadab Khan in SENA.

I disagree.

I would be going into the Tests in NZ with:

7: Shadab Khan
8. Faheem Ashraf
9. Mohammad Amir if available
10. Naseem Shah,
11. Shaheen Shah Afridi

Reserve quicks:
Hasan Ali
Ehsan Adil
Haris Rauf

 

[MMHS]

[MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION]
You argue that Pakistan hasn’t got 4 quicks to pair with Shadab Khan in SENA.

I disagree.

I would be going into the Tests in NZ with:

7: Shadab Khan
8. Faheem Ashraf
9. Mohammad Amir if available
10. Naseem Shah,
11. Shaheen Shah Afridi

Reserve quicks:
Hasan Ali
Ehsan Adil
Haris Rauf

On papers you can say that it’s Shaun Pollock, followed by Wasim Akram, Malcolm Marshall & Allen Davidson; backed by Mushtaq Mohammad - reality is Mo Amir is retired and other two has taken 8 wickets in whole series at a healthy average of 60, while the reserve three starts with someone these days bowling in ODIs at T20 SR, next one last played a Test in 2013 and the last one I am not sure how many FC games has played in his entire career.

Only left is Shaun Pollock ....... you didn’t learn anything yet, so I’ll wait for next time all-rounder Faheem Ashraf plays.

 

[Junaids]

On papers you can say that it’s Shaun Pollock, followed by Wasim Akram, Malcolm Marshall & Allen Davidson; backed by Mushtaq Mohammad - reality is Mo Amir is retired and other two has taken 8 wickets in whole series at a healthy average of 60, while the reserve three starts with someone these days bowling in ODIs at T20 SR, next one last played a Test in 2013 and the last one I am not sure how many FC games has played in his entire career.

Only left is Shaun Pollock ....... you didn’t learn anything yet, so I’ll wait for next time all-rounder Faheem Ashraf plays.

Ämir didn't play even though he was there because Misbah and Younis wouldn't ask him. We all know that.

The performance of Shaheen Shah Afridi and Naseem Shah is nothing to worry about - just like Waqar Younis on his first Test tour of Australia at a similar age.

I have never said that they are the finished article. They are getting experience but I should also add that playing them outside Asia in a 3 pacer attack inherently reduces their speed and effectiveness anyway.

It's just like Mitchell Johnson - they will take more wickets bowling 15 overs per day than bowling 25 overs.

Shaheen and Naseem will take time to come good, but having them and Shadab as a leg-spinning all-rounder is incredible good fortune for Pakistan. To me, the question is "which two bowlers - one of whom can bat - do you pair with them?

 

[MMHS]

Ämir didn't play even though he was there because Misbah and Younis wouldn't ask him. We all know that.

The performance of Shaheen Shah Afridi and Naseem Shah is nothing to worry about - just like Waqar Younis on his first Test tour of Australia at a similar age.

I have never said that they are the finished article. They are getting experience but I should also add that playing them outside Asia in a 3 pacer attack inherently reduces their speed and effectiveness anyway.

It's just like Mitchell Johnson - they will take more wickets bowling 15 overs per day than bowling 25 overs.

Shaheen and Naseem will take time to come good, but having them and Shadab as a leg-spinning all-rounder is incredible good fortune for Pakistan. To me, the question is "which two bowlers - one of whom can bat - do you pair with them?

Only you know that Amir would have played if Misbah & Waquar begged at his highness’s mercy - not sure about others but I know that he has choked out of Test cricket to maximise his return from T20 cricket and is not interested to make a come back.

Rest part, we’ll see, not long to go - there are series in NZ awaiting.

 

[KB]

Batting allrounder.

His batting has a lot of potential. Just needs to play more First class cricket. You cannot improve your technique with T20 cricket. Batting temperament can only be improved by batting for hours.

He is a decent 2nd spinner as well. Shadab's inclusion made a big difference in the first test. Pak looked a lot better with Shadab in it.

Needs to play more First class and show he can bat at 6 in the future. Hopefully he'll have that hunger to improve. Only talent won't get you far in international cricket.

I checked the statistics and Shadab has played just 17 first class matches and 6 of those are Tests. It is almost as if his early success in the PSL and the short forms of the game has led to a neglect of the longer form. I don't think he played any first class matches in the Quaid-e-Azam Trophy in 2019-20. Instead he played in the Bangladesh Premier League. Not sure this was the wisest decision from a development perspective.

I think he has potentially a lot to offer the Test team. As we saw at Old Trafford, his enterprising style of batting changed the rhythm of Pakistan's innings; he is also decent in the field and able to potentially confuse tail end batmen with the ball.

 

[yasir]

First of all Shadab is not interested in test Cricket. He has played very little FC Cricket in last 2/3 years, mainly because he is interested in making money via T20 League...There are fundamental issues with Shadab's bowling, which is his primary skill, that requires even more work as FC level, which he has shown no interest in past. I don't know why people thing, he can improve by just playing test cricket ??

No matter how talented you are, Test Cricket demands hard work. You cannot champion Test Cricket on talent alone(he is not that talented to begin with)...

 

[Abdullah]

I agree with this and myself and Junaid were saying this ore tour.
The team for NZ picks itself.
Shan
Abid ( I pref imam but Abid has to be given a fair run)
Azhar
Babar
Fawad ( I prefer Harris but fawad deserves a fair run)
Rizwan
Shadab
Faheem/ Sohail ( whoever the management think can make more runs as long as they can bowl 45 overs a game without letting up)
Shaheen
Abbas
Naseem

Take Haider and Zafar gohar along for the ride

The above team can go places

 

[Thunderbolt14]

[MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] — your debates have been very interesting to follow and I am interested in seeing what your opinion is - would you play the following lineup, theoretically speaking:

6. Mohammad Rizwan (wk)
7. Shadab Khan
8. Faheem Ashraf
9. Waqar Younis
10. Fred Trueman
11. Glenn McGrath

Or this one:

7. Mohammad Rizwan (wk)
8. Yasir Shah
9. Waqar Younis
10. Fred Trueman
11. Glenn McGrath

It seems [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] would take Shadab and Faheem whereas [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] would take Yasir.

 

[MMHS]

[MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] — your debates have been very interesting to follow and I am interested in seeing what your opinion is - would you play the following lineup, theoretically speaking:

6. Mohammad Rizwan (wk)
7. Shadab Khan
8. Faheem Ashraf
9. Waqar Younis
10. Fred Trueman
11. Glenn McGrath

Or this one:

7. Mohammad Rizwan (wk)
8. Yasir Shah
9. Waqar Younis
10. Fred Trueman
11. Glenn McGrath

It seems [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] would take Shadab and Faheem whereas [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] would take Yasir.

If you really can gather those 9,10 & Jack in one team, I may actually play 7 batsmen with two-three of them sharing 50 overs between them and Captain can unleash the beasts - that actually double covers for any batting collapse ...... you change it with Cyborg Starc & Incarnation ..... Yasir has to come, unfortunately - he is the MVP of this team outside fantasy world.

Don’t even think that Aussies don’t have such “all-rounders”, but they hardly play one as fifth bowler unless the all-rounders are in the class of KR Miller, Jack Gregory or Richie Benaud and they play their home Tests at the physically most demanding of all places. Instead of playing such “linkman” (someone who does everything a little to bridge the gap between bat & ball), they’ll extract 25 overs out of Waugh bros, Lehman, Martyn, Clarke, North ... and pick four bowlers to bowl 80-85 overs at full throttle in a 90 overs playing day - a guy named Andrew Symonds played 22 Tests over a 10-12 years career with a batting average of 41 & bowling average of 37 - you got the clue.

Instead of bashing Yasir, because he is blocking the path of Junaids’ champ, boss should spend his energy on writing how Shaheen can become a human version of Starc and Naseem Shah can be known as Naseem - it’ll work better.

 

[MMHS]

I checked the statistics and Shadab has played just 17 first class matches and 6 of those are Tests. It is almost as if his early success in the PSL and the short forms of the game has led to a neglect of the longer form. I don't think he played any first class matches in the Quaid-e-Azam Trophy in 2019-20. Instead he played in the Bangladesh Premier League. Not sure this was the wisest decision from a development perspective.

I think he has potentially a lot to offer the Test team. As we saw at Old Trafford, his enterprising style of batting changed the rhythm of Pakistan's innings; he is also decent in the field and able to potentially confuse tail end batmen with the ball.

He won’t last more than 3-4 years and 23-25 Tests, even for this generation of PAK cricket, unless he improves his bowling. Only a deluded fan boy can write that Shadab has gone though the full cycle of transformation- like Steve Smith

 

[Prince of Pakistan]

I checked the statistics and Shadab has played just 17 first class matches and 6 of those are Tests. It is almost as if his early success in the PSL and the short forms of the game has led to a neglect of the longer form. I don't think he played any first class matches in the Quaid-e-Azam Trophy in 2019-20. Instead he played in the Bangladesh Premier League. Not sure this was the wisest decision from a development perspective.

I think he has potentially a lot to offer the Test team. As we saw at Old Trafford, his enterprising style of batting changed the rhythm of Pakistan's innings; he is also decent in the field and able to potentially confuse tail end batmen with the ball.

It's a typical Pakistani trait as well. Talented lads, but not willing to work hard. It's very unfortunate considering how talented some of the guys are.

Also seems like people like Misbah do not motivate him to bat higher in FC and score a bulk of runs in the QeT season. Most of the PCB people see him as an useful bits of pieces cricketer.

Either there is no hunger to improve his batting as well or he isn't aware of his batting potential thus not taking it seriously except the power hitting for his T20 job.

 

[Prince of Pakistan]

He won’t last more than 3-4 years and 23-25 Tests, even for this generation of PAK cricket, unless he improves his bowling. Only a deluded fan boy can write that Shadab has gone though the full cycle of transformation- like Steve Smith��

Who spoke of S Smith? We Pakistanis cannot even dream of getting there. Babar is our only super talent who always was a batsman.

In Pakistan there are countless examples of bowlers turning into batsmen/batting allrounders. The famous ones being Shoaib Malik and Azhar Ali.
Considering Shadab's potential it shouldn't be difficult for him to become a nr 6/7 batsman in tests. But the problem is that he seems lazy or unaware of its possibilities.

 

[Junaids]

[MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] — your debates have been very interesting to follow and I am interested in seeing what your opinion is - would you play the following lineup, theoretically speaking:

6. Mohammad Rizwan (wk)
7. Shadab Khan
8. Faheem Ashraf
9. Waqar Younis
10. Fred Trueman
11. Glenn McGrath

Or this one:

7. Mohammad Rizwan (wk)
8. Yasir Shah
9. Waqar Younis
10. Fred Trueman
11. Glenn McGrath

It seems [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] would take Shadab and Faheem whereas [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] would take Yasir.

Firstly, I know you're only teasing me, but can we please get the Naseem Shah / Fred Trueman thing out of the way?

It was Michael Vaughan who compared Naseem Shah to a quicker version of Fred Trueman - not me!

Source: https://cricketpakistan.com.pk/en/n...han-waxes-lyrical-about-wonderful-naseem-shah

Here is what "The Guardian" wrote as its end of series ratings:
Source: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/9...0-pakistan-player-ratings-test-series-cricket

Shaheen Shah Afridi: 14 runs at five; five wickets at 52
He swung it into the pads, seamed it away towards the cordon and tried out the middle of the pitch with some sharpish short stuff, but, once the shine and hardness left the new ball, he looked like a 20-year-old making his way in the game. Grade C

Naseem Shah: five runs at two; three wickets at 69
It was no hype! The kid has the most beautiful flowing action, which can generate 90mph at will, and he possesses a heart that keeps him charging in and bowling fast. But he doesn’t know how to get batsmen out yet – how could he at 17? Grade C-
................................................................................................
Remember - all along I have said that you can no more rely upon kids than you can on geriatrics - guys aged 21-30 need to do the donkey work in an international team.

Nevertheless, the investment has now been made in Naseem Shah and Shaheen Shah Afridi. And yet again trying to use Yasir Shah as a stock bowler outside Asia has failed.

When I look at Yasir Shah and Shadab Khan, as a former rubbish-grade leg-spinner this is what I see:

Yasir Shah:
- more repeatable action, better controlled stock-ball (leg-break).
- decent top-spinner (it's not really a flipper).
- no googly.
Here is a an experienced bowler who can bowl long, accurate spells but who can't move the ball back into the batsman so he will always have a strike rate outside Asia around 65 and an economy rate around 3.5 runs per over.

Shadab Khan
Shadab bowls with a much higher arm than Yasir Shah, like Mushtaq Ahmed did.
- Unlike Yasir, he can spin it in both directions with ease.
- His leg-break is less accurate than Yasir Shah's and only spins half as much.
- His googly is the best in the business currently. It's well-disguised and it's accurate.
- His less repeatable action means that he will concede around an extra run every 2 overs compared with Yasir Shah, but his ability to bowl a well-disguised googly means that in spite of his inferior accuracy he will take wickets with the same strike rate as Yasir Shah.

Misbah persists in believing that Yasir Shah is Shane Warne, and that his extra accuracy allows him to be a stock bowler outside Asia, bowling long accurate spells and meaning that Misbah can get away without a fourth quick bowler, and can play an extra batsman.

Misbah is wrong.

Even Faheem Ashraf has a superior economy rate and strike rate outside Asia compared with Yasir Shah. So would Ehsan Adil. So would Sameen Gul. So would Amad Butt.

Yasir Shah is a Misbah tactic for cutting down on the quick bowlers. But it exhausts the ones that Pakistan do play, and under Misbah their strike rate is far worse than during the two years under Sarfraz/Arthur/Inzamam when Shadab Khan played instead of the sixth batsman and Faheem Ashraf played instead of Yasir Shah.

If I were Pakistan's cricket supremo I would be speaking constructively with Mohammad Amir. Because in New Zealand in four months I would want an attack of:

7. Shadab Khan
8. Faheem Ashraf
9. Mohammad Amir
10. Shaheen Shah Afridi
11. Naseem Shah

 

[shaz619]

But Yasir Shah is being used in a role that is not required in SENA.

Look at the posts of [MENTION=9]Saj[/MENTION] and [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] .

They correctly identify that you can use Yasir Shah for long spells in England and it goes OK.

But the thing is, it doesn't go as well as playing a fourth quick. Not at all.

Yasir Shah and Shadab Khan were the two Pakistan bowlers with the worst economy rates in these Tests - worse than Shaheen but even worse than Naseem Shah.

I fully accept that Yasir Shah can be a poor stock bowler in SENA and that Shadab Khan would be even worse.

But I don't want a spinner bowling lots of overs in SENA - because unless you are Shane Warne it doesn't work. It didn't even work for Saeed Ajmal in 2010.

In SENA I want four quicks and a part-time spinner who is 80% of the quality of an extra batsman, but can dismiss the tail and take some wickets in the Fourth Innings. I want a Moeen Ali, not a Graeme Swann. (Pakistan hasn't got the batting to accommodate 4 quicks plus a Swann.)

In Asia I'm open to Yasir Shah playing instead of the fourth quick, or possibly Zafar Gohar or Sajid Khan as I don't really want two leggies.

But look at Yasir Shah's awful economy rate in SENA. I don't want a leggie instead of my fourth quick. He releases too much pressure.

England got away when Zak Crawley hit his 267 because they managed to hit Yasir Shah for 4.43 runs per over - they didn't even reach that rate against Fawad Alam and Asad Shafiq and Shan Masood.

I used to be a poor leggie. We are not really economy machines. Not even people of MacGill quality.

Leg spinners have historically gone for a few but they take you wickets, Yasir Shah with ZERO support was the most threatening bowler on this tour of England for all the criticism he gets, I do agree Pak could get more out of him with much better support from the pacers and an A/R but despite that he has been very effective, Yasir should never have to bowl as many overs as he does but that's what he is forced to do because everyone else is not good enough! so it is a bit insulting that you are always advocating Shadab over him and I don't say that as an England fan but I say that a massive fan of Leg Spin bowling! and while I appreciate your many psychological insights as a psychiatrist in the same way in fact I was the best Leg Spinner in the Birmingham Premier League during the early 2010s so I can personally tell you that Shadab is not a Test class Leg Spinner spinner!

 

[shaz619]

And to even consider Shadab as an A/R, he needs to either be a as good as a specialist in either batting or bowling; he is just not up to that level at the moment in either departments; in fact he doesn't have as much potential as Shahid Afridi had! who I think would have been much more suited to the role you have in mind had his desire to play at the Test level been on point