Where did Kapil Dev rank amongst the great cricketers and all-rounders?

[Ab Fan]

Number 1 is always Gary Sobers.

The issue with both Kapil and Botham was that their peak was too short. Both were great players from 1978 to 1985. After that one was just too out of shape and the other was not as quick anymore.

He had some knee problems after 1985. In his first 70 tests, he took about 275 test wickets but in the next 60 tests, he only took 150 odd wickets. So, I agree that he was not that good enough after 1985 with ball.

 

[bujhee kom]

Kapil was a very good cricketer. He is in the 2nd rank of ARs after Sobers, Miller, Imran and Kallis. He bands with Botham, Hadlee, Cairns and the like. Shakib is at 1.5 tier, sadly in his time BD had not yet become a dominant force so he suffered from lack of support.

 

[Bewal Express]

A beautiful action which allowed outswing naturally. Never bowled rubbish and was sharp in pace until 1984, then a knee injury made him into an accurate trundler.

 

[MenInG]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"> 9,031 international runs and 687 wickets<br> Best bowling figures (9/83) in a Test innings by a captain<br> ICC Hall of Fame inductee<br><br>Happy Birthday to India's 1983 World Cup winning captain, Kapil Dev <a href="https://t.co/T2f8eWQT6k">pic.twitter.com/T2f8eWQT6k</a></p>— ICC (@ICC) <a href="https://twitter.com/ICC/status/1479067760353234954?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 6, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[MenInG]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">175* off 138 balls <br><br>On this day in 1983, Kapil Dev produced one of the greatest individual performances of all-time to help India beat Zimbabwe in <a href="https://twitter.com/cricketworldcup?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@cricketworldcup</a> 1983 <a href="https://t.co/g4H2CcGQhU">pic.twitter.com/g4H2CcGQhU</a></p>— ICC (@ICC) <a href="https://twitter.com/ICC/status/1538023738087571459?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 18, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[TheSultan]

Gavasker was India’s greatest batsman, but Kapil was India’s greatest cricketer.

I won’t compare to the rest of the world - that would be unfair

 

[MenInG]

In this day 39 years ago, Team India won their first ODI World Cup title by defeating the much-fancied West Indies in the 1983 final. The Kapil Dev-led outfit’s win at the Lord’s changed the face of Indian cricket.

While cricket became a national obsession, it also compelled the rest of the world to believe that Asian teams are capable of winning the World title.

West Indies, England and Australia were the pre-tournament favourites. And India defied the odds by winning the prestigious title while defeating England and West Indies at the semi-final and final respectively.

India met Australia and West Indies twice at the Group stage and they recorded one win and one loss each against the two heavyweights. However, their most memorable and series defining win came in the quarterfinal, when they defeated Zimbabwe by 31 runs, courtesy of a Kapil Dev special.

West Indies were overwhelming favourites against India in the final though.

Put in to bat first, India’s start was not great as they lost star opener Sunil Gavaskar for just two runs. And after that, Kris Srikkanth (38 runs off 57 balls) and Mohinder Amarnath (26 runs off 80 balls) played some decent cricket to take India’s innings forward. However, their dismissal led to a batting collapse as India were bowled out for 183 in 54.4 overs.

Other than Srikkanth and Amarnath, Sandeep Patil was the only player to cross the 20 run-mark. He scored 27 runs off 29 deliveries and was India’s second-highest run-getter in the match behind Srikkanth.

Though 183 wasn’t an imposing target, especially against two-time defending champions West Indies, which had the likes of Desmond Haynes, Vivian Richards and Clive Lloyd in their line-up.

However, India did the impossible by bowling out West Indies for 142 in 52 overs and win the contest by 43 runs.

For India, Mohinder Amarnath and Madan Lal picked three wickets each.

Balwinder Sandhu scalped two wickets while Kapil and Roger Binny picked one wicket each. That win is widely accepted to have revolutionised cricket in India and the rest, as they say, is history.

https://www.news18.com/cricketnext/...ed-indias-obsession-with-cricket-5428093.html

 

[Hitman]

My first hero in cricket, Kapil Dev.

 

[Hextro]

Kapil Dev was a very good all-rounder, he's easily India's best ever all-rounder. Although Kapil is a few notches below the likes of Jacques Kallis, Imran Khan, Gary Sobers, Ian Botham, Richard Hadlee, and Shaun Pollock.

I consider Wasim to be a better test all-rounder than Kapil.

 

[as-95]

Kapil Dev is definitely an Indian great but there is no chance he is an ATG. He is below the likes of Imran Khan, Sobers and even Kallis.

 

[MenInG]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"> intl. matches<br> intl. runs<br> intl. wickets <br>India's 1983 World Cup-winning captain <br><br>Birthday wishes to Mr Kapil Dev - one of the finest all-rounders to have ever graced the game. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/TeamIndia?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#TeamIndia</a> | <a href="https://twitter.com/therealkapildev?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@therealkapildev</a> <a href="https://t.co/zrDcaR1wWV">pic.twitter.com/zrDcaR1wWV</a></p>— BCCI (@BCCI) <a href="https://twitter.com/BCCI/status/1611226206233583618?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 6, 2023</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Hitman]

Happy B'day, Kapil Paaji! My first hero in cricket when I didn't even know the rules of the game properly

 

[Robert]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">175* off 138 balls <br><br>On this day in 1983, Kapil Dev produced one of the greatest individual performances of all-time to help India beat Zimbabwe in <a href="https://twitter.com/cricketworldcup?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@cricketworldcup</a> 1983 <a href="https://t.co/g4H2CcGQhU">pic.twitter.com/g4H2CcGQhU</a></p>— ICC (@ICC) <a href="https://twitter.com/ICC/status/1538023738087571459?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 18, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I remember that innings. India were five down for about 50, against the team that put Australia out, but Kapil set a monster target and won the match.

He was far ahead of his time in scoring rate. Had he been born in England he would have scored fewer runs, but taken 500+ test wickets.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Happy Birthday to one of the greatest player of all time. What an athlete, I believe he never missed a test match due to injury ?....

Only batsman to wack the great WI bowlers all over the park like they were nobody's at thier house... Easily the most talented and best bat of that All-rounder Era...

 

[Robert]

Kapil Dev was a very good all-rounder, he's easily India's best ever all-rounder. Although Kapil is a few notches below the likes of Jacques Kallis, Imran Khan, Gary Sobers, Ian Botham, Richard Hadlee, and Shaun Pollock.

I consider Wasim to be a better test all-rounder than Kapil.

Wasim wasn’t a test all-rounder. He was a fast bowler who could hit fifties. He was not good enough to be picked for batting alone. Same for Hadlee and Pollock.

 

[MP2011]

I remember that innings. India were five down for about 50, against the team that put Australia out, but Kapil set a monster target and won the match.

He was far ahead of his time in scoring rate. Had he been born in England he would have scored fewer runs, but taken 500+ test wickets.

More like 5/17 when he walked in to bat!

 

[Robert]

Happy Birthday to one of the greatest player of all time. What an athlete, I believe he never missed a test match due to injury ?....

Only batsman to wack the great WI bowlers all over the park like they were nobody's at thier house... Easily the most talented and best bat of that All-rounder Era...

Talented - possibly. Best - not sure about that. Eight test centuries wasn’t a good return for a man who played half his cricket on easy-paced tracks. Kapil got himself out an awful lot by being too aggressive, not doing his ability justice.

I’d argue that Imran and Hadlee maximised their talent, while Botham and Kapil did not.

 

[Romali_rotti]

I remember that innings. India were five down for about 50.

.

India were 5/17 Rob, when Dev walked to the crease.

I remember reading in an interview by a journalist, as Dev was walking out of the dressing room, the journalist asked the young 24 year old young man: Your team is in a major crisis, what are you going to do as Captain ? He replied: Watch and see...

He went out and won the game also captained India to its first WC win against the greatest side of all time....Single handedly put Indian cricket on the MAP

This man is champion of champions, once in a lifetime.... One of the Greatest....

 

[Romali_rotti]

Talented - possibly. Best - not sure about that. Eight test centuries wasn’t a good return for a man who played half his cricket on easy-paced tracks. Kapil got himself out an awful lot by being too aggressive, not doing his ability justice.

I’d argue that Imran and Hadlee maximised their talent, while Botham and Kapil did not.

Imo those WI innings of a 100 and 99 at over 100 strike rate showed that he was the best bat.

No other batsmen let alone an All-rounder has achieved this against the WI at their house.

Imran struggled to put bat on ball in the WI, Botham we all know he was a deer in front of head lights when going against the WI bowlers of that time..

Dev has outbowled Imran in the WI, Botham was always a no show against the WI be it in Eng or WI..

All comes down to what you have done against the best in my opinion rest is secondary..

 

[Robert]

India were 5/17 Rob, when Dev walked to the crease.

I remember reading in an interview by a journalist, as Dev was walking out of the dressing room, the journalist asked the young 24 year old young man: Your team is in a major crisis, what are you going to do as Captain ? He replied: Watch and see...

He went out and won the game also captained India to its first WC win against the greatest side of all time....Single handedly put Indian cricket on the MAP

This man is champion of champions, once in a lifetime.... One of the Greatest....

Incredible.

 

[Ab Fan]

Imo those WI innings of a 100 and 99 at over 100 strike rate showed that he was the best bat.

No other batsmen let alone an All-rounder has achieved this against the WI at their house.

Imran struggled to put bat on ball in the WI, Botham we all know he was a deer in front of head lights when going against the WI bowlers of that time..

Dev has outbowled Imran in the WI, Botham was always a no show against the WI be it in Eng or WI..

All comes down to what you have done against the best in my opinion rest is secondary..

In Tests , Kapil Dev is behind

Sobers
Hadlee
Imran
Kallis
Botham
Miller
Pollock
Ashwin

 

[Romali_rotti]

In Tests , Kapil Dev is behind

Sobers
Hadlee
Imran
Kallis
Botham
Miller
Pollock
Ashwin

Sobers, Imran the bowler, Hadlee the bowler and Kallis(as a whole) were ahead of Dev.

The rest, NO..

 

[TheSultan]

Kapil was below the other 3 in bowling for sure - but that’s no disgrace. Imran and Hadlee, forget all-rounders, they were bonafide ATG bowlers.

Botham had a higher peak than Kapil but overall Kapil contributed more over his career.

If we look at the sum of parts, Kapil was a better all rounder than Hadlee. Personally I don’t believe Hadlee was a good enough batsman to be mentioned with the other 3 as an all rounder.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Kapil was below the other 3 in bowling for sure - but that’s no disgrace. Imran and Hadlee, forget all-rounders, they were bonafide ATG bowlers.

Compare the stats of the 4 all rounders vs WI, home and away..

Will be quite a reveal on who was what...

 

[Hextro]

Wasim wasn’t a test all-rounder. He was a fast bowler who could hit fifties. He was not good enough to be picked for batting alone. Same for Hadlee and Pollock.

When it comes to overall contribution with both bat and ball the guys you've mentioned are right up there. The only difference between them and most other all-rounders is that their bowling was much better than their batting, similar to how Garry Sobers' batting was much better than his bowling.

Shaun Pollock took 2.08 wickets and scored 24.2 runs per innings whereas someone like Ben Stokes takes 1.37 wickets and scores 34.5 runs per innings. Those stats don't discredit either of Shaun Pollock and Ben Stokes' all-round capabilities they only demonstrate that batting is Ben's stronger suit and bowling is Pollock's. Both Pollock and Stokes make decent/great contributions with bat and ball thus I consider them all-rounders.

I judge all-rounders based on their overall contribution no matter if it's with bat or ball but I understand your perspective.

 

[Ab Fan]

Wasim wasn’t a test all-rounder. He was a fast bowler who could hit fifties. He was not good enough to be picked for batting alone. Same for Hadlee and Pollock.

Hadlee and Pollock should be considered A/R in my opinion. Same for Ashwin who had 5 100s. All three had 3k+ runs.

Wasim doesn't qualify. He had an average of 22. His runs per inning is less than 20.

Also, if you will check if someone is good enough to be picked for weaker suit alone, most wouldn't qualify.

 

[WengerOut]

Nobody would select Sobers on his bowling alone.

 

[TheSultan]

Compare the stats of the 4 all rounders vs WI, home and away..

Will be quite a reveal on who was what...

I think massaging stats is not the way to try and get your point across.


And I didn’t mean to discredit him in any way. It’s no disgrace for Kapil to be behind Imran and Hadlee - I still have him as India’s greatest ever bowler as well as India’s greatest ever cricketer.

Probably very underappreciated since the Sachin maniacs arrived on the scene.

 

[Robert]

Imo those WI innings of a 100 and 99 at over 100 strike rate showed that he was the best bat.

No other batsmen let alone an All-rounder has achieved this against the WI at their house.

Imran struggled to put bat on ball in the WI, Botham we all know he was a deer in front of head lights when going against the WI bowlers of that time..

We don’t all know that. I watched Botham smack WI round Lord’s in 1984 for his 81, on top of his eightfer. His problem was overconfidence. He thought he could larrup them. What worked against Lillee and Hadlee didn’t work against Lillee * 4 or Hadlee * 4.

Imran played a number of clutch innings against WI for his average of 28.

As for “no other batsman”, Kapil’s average of 29 against isn’t anything to shake a stick at. Compare Gooch who got five centuries average 44 and Vengsarkar who got four centuries average 43. Had Kapil slowed down his scoring rate he’d have averaged 40 in tests instead of 30.

 

[Robert]

Kapil was below the other 3 in bowling for sure - but that’s no disgrace. Imran and Hadlee, forget all-rounders, they were bonafide ATG bowlers.

Botham had a higher peak than Kapil but overall Kapil contributed more over his career.

If we look at the sum of parts, Kapil was a better all rounder than Hadlee. Personally I don’t believe Hadlee was a good enough batsman to be mentioned with the other 3 as an all rounder.

I’d put Kapil a bit ahead of Botham as a bowler. He had very good returns in WI and Australia (though not in England where you’ expect him to do best of all).

Concur that Imran and Hadlee were ATG bowlers.

 

[Majestic]

We don’t all know that. I watched Botham smack WI round Lord’s in 1984 for his 81, on top of his eightfer. His problem was overconfidence. He thought he could larrup them. What worked against Lillee and Hadlee didn’t work against Lillee * 4 or Hadlee * 4.

Imran played a number of clutch innings against WI for his average of 28.

As for “no other batsman”, Kapil’s average of 29 against isn’t anything to shake a stick at. Compare Gooch who got five centuries average 44 and Vengsarkar who got four centuries average 43. Had Kapil slowed down his scoring rate he’d have averaged 40 in tests instead of 30.

29 is bowling average for Kapil, 31 is his batting average.

 

[Majestic]

In Tests , Kapil Dev is behind

Sobers
Hadlee
Imran
Kallis
Botham
Miller
Pollock
Ashwin

Pollock and Ashwin were inferior batsman than Kapil but better bowlers.

 

[jeetu]

I’d put Kapil a bit ahead of Botham as a bowler. He had very good returns in WI and Australia (though not in England where you’ expect him to do best of all).

Concur that Imran and Hadlee were ATG bowlers.

Kapil has weird either or record in England
In 2 series where he did decently with ball he failed as batsman.
In other 2 series he failed miserably with ball he did quite well with bat.
[table=class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td] Kapil [/td][td]Span [/td][td]Mat [/td][td]Runs [/td][td]Bat Av [/td][td]100 [/td][td]Wkts [/td][td]Bowl Av [/td][td]5W [/td][td]Ave Diff [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]overall [/td][td]1978-1994 [/td][td]131 [/td][td]5248 [/td][td]31.05 [/td][td]8 [/td][td]434 [/td][td]29.64 [/td][td]23 [/td][td]1.4 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]vsEngland [/td][td]1979-1990 [/td][td]13 [/td][td]638 [/td][td]35.44 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]43 [/td][td]39.18 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]-3.74 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][td] [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]year 1979 [/td][td] [/td][td]4 [/td][td]45 [/td][td]7.5 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]16 [/td][td]30.93 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]-23.43 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]year 1982 [/td][td] [/td][td]3 [/td][td]292 [/td][td]73 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]10 [/td][td]43.9 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]29.1 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]year 1986 [/td][td] [/td][td]3 [/td][td]81 [/td][td]20.25 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]10 [/td][td]30.6 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]-10.34 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]year 1990 [/td][td] [/td][td]3 [/td][td]220 [/td][td]55 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]63.57 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]-8.57 [/td][/tr]
[/table]

 

[Romali_rotti]

I think massaging stats is not the way to try and get your point across.


And I didn’t mean to discredit him in any way. It’s no disgrace for Kapil to be behind Imran and Hadlee - I still have him as India’s greatest ever bowler as well as India’s greatest ever cricketer.

Probably very underappreciated since the Sachin maniacs arrived on the scene.

I don't believe I ever said Kapil was ahead of Imran and Hadlee as a bowler.

 

[Romali_rotti]

As for “no other batsman”, Kapil’s average of 29 against isn’t anything to shake a stick at. Compare Gooch who got five centuries average 44 and Vengsarkar who got four centuries average 43. Had Kapil slowed down his scoring rate he’d have averaged 40 in tests instead of 30.

You misunderstood my post, I didn't mean to say Kapil was some ATG bat of that time. I meant the 2 x innings he played of getting a 100 & following it up the next game with an 98 odd at over a 100 strike rate facing the WI fast bowlers at their house.

I do not believe any bats have achieved that feat by Dev in the WI with that strike rate during those days.

Had Dev calmed down and concentrated on his batting he could have gone down as a proper batsmen of that time, which guys like Imran and Hadlee etc imo didn't have the ability to do...

The batting ability is really telling,

Imran's highest score in the WI is a 40 odd I believe.

Botham - couldn't put bat on ball, his record in the WI is appalling,

Hadlee - also I believe do not have 50 in the WI...

 

[Ab Fan]

You misunderstood my post, I didn't mean to say Kapil was some ATG bat of that time. I meant the 2 x innings he played of getting a 100 & following it up the next game with an 98 odd at over a 100 strike rate facing the WI fast bowlers at their house.

I do not believe any bats have achieved that feat by Dev in the WI with that strike rate during those days.

Had Dev calmed down and concentrated on his batting he could have gone down as a proper batsmen of that time, which guys like Imran and Hadlee etc imo didn't have the ability to do...

The batting ability is really telling,

Imran's highest score in the WI is a 40 odd I believe.

Botham - couldn't put bat on ball, his record in the WI is appalling,

Hadlee - also I believe do not have 50 in the WI...

Dev's 129 in South Africa was quite a stunning knock. His batting skills were pretty good but let's be honest at the end of day, his average reflects the inconsistency.

Stokes 36
Miller 36
Botham 34
Cairns 33
Flintoff 32
Kapil 31

I think these guys were highly talented with bat and scored their runs at good rate with hardly any not outs. So, Kapil clearly underachieved.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Dev's 129 in South Africa was quite a stunning knock. His batting skills were pretty good but let's be honest at the end of day, his average reflects the inconsistency.

Stokes 36
Miller 36
Botham 34
Cairns 33
Flintoff 32
Kapil 31

I think these guys were highly talented with bat and scored their runs at good rate with hardly any not outs. So, Kapil clearly underachieved.

I saw clips of that 100 in SA where he took on a young Allan Donald and rest of the SA fast bowlers, I believe it was Durban ?. One heck of a knock, rest of the Indian batting folded to the pace and bounce but Dev pulled and hooked his way to the 100...

Dev's problem was that, he simply did not give a damn about his batting, he felt he was a bowler first, which he was during the first 60 test matches of his career then after his leg injury he wasn't as good.

Gavaskar once said along the lines of: someone of Kapil Dev's talent and ability should retire with 10k runs but he would never get there, because of his poor/careless nature with the bat.

 

[happydavy]

Kapil had only one problem and that was achieving too much too early and not sure what to do post that. He won india the world cup at an age of 24 as a captain, against all odds. No captain of that age had ever won a world cup before or since. What Imran kept chasing until he was 40, Kapil paaji achieved that as a kid. Kapil needed a challenge to perform well, and when against the best teams of the world i.e Windies and Australia he showed what a champion he was. People could dissect the stats and come up with their own conclusions, but those who know the name knows what Kapil was. Neymar may have better stats than Maradona but that doesn't make Neymar ATG.

 

[TheSultan]

You misunderstood my post, I didn't mean to say Kapil was some ATG bat of that time. I meant the 2 x innings he played of getting a 100 & following it up the next game with an 98 odd at over a 100 strike rate facing the WI fast bowlers at their house.

I do not believe any bats have achieved that feat by Dev in the WI with that strike rate during those days.

Had Dev calmed down and concentrated on his batting he could have gone down as a proper batsmen of that time, which guys like Imran and Hadlee etc imo didn't have the ability to do...

The batting ability is really telling,

Imran's highest score in the WI is a 40 odd I believe.

Botham - couldn't put bat on ball, his record in the WI is appalling,

Hadlee - also I believe do not have 50 in the WI...

Definitely Kapil had a higher ceiling with the bat than all the others, but we can say that about loads of players who failed to fulfil their potential.

Azhar mahmood had back to back centuries VS a great South African attack in their back yard, but we don’t go on about it.

 

[Robert]

29 is bowling average for Kapil, 31 is his batting average.

Kapil’s batting average vs. WI is 29.

 

[Robert]

Dev's 129 in South Africa was quite a stunning knock. His batting skills were pretty good but let's be honest at the end of day, his average reflects the inconsistency.

Stokes 36
Miller 36
Botham 34
Cairns 33
Flintoff 32
Kapil 31

I think these guys were highly talented with bat and scored their runs at good rate with hardly any not outs. So, Kapil clearly underachieved.

Eight test centuries were not enough for a man of his ability. Should have been 16.

 

[Robert]

You misunderstood my post, I didn't mean to say Kapil was some ATG bat of that time. I meant the 2 x innings he played of getting a 100 & following it up the next game with an 98 odd at over a 100 strike rate facing the WI fast bowlers at their house.

I do not believe any bats have achieved that feat by Dev in the WI with that strike rate during those days.

Had Dev calmed down and concentrated on his batting he could have gone down as a proper batsmen of that time, which guys like Imran and Hadlee etc imo didn't have the ability to do...

The batting ability is really telling,

Imran's highest score in the WI is a 40 odd I believe.

Botham - couldn't put bat on ball, his record in the WI is appalling,

Hadlee - also I believe do not have 50 in the WI...

Ability alone means little. Translation into runs and wickets is what counts.

As for scoring against the best: Hadlee scored a century against WI. Does that make him a better bat than Botham who didn’t? Of course not.

One other thing about Botham is that he took more test catches than the other three aces put together - thereby depriving runs from the opposition. He was as good a catcher as I ever saw.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Ability alone means little. Translation into runs and wickets is what counts.

Agreed..

As for scoring against the best: Hadlee scored a century against WI. Does that make him a better bat than Botham who didn’t? Of course not.

Well to be fair, I made my point clear from the start, which is, I believe that DEV was the best bat talent and ability wise, out of the great all rounders of the 80s. From my perspective I feel I have achieved my point, DEV scored nearly 2 x 100s at over a 100 strike rate in the WI, while the rest;

Imran highest score in WI: 47,

Hadlee's highest score in WI: 39,

Botham highest score in WI: 38

You can disagree, however imo if you can't perform against the best, you are not as good as the players who have. If you look at the stats I mentioned above its clear that rest of the all rounders of the 80s struggled to play the WI quick bowlers at their house.

One other thing about Botham is that he took more test catches than the other three aces put together - thereby depriving runs from the opposition. He was as good a catcher as I ever saw.

Taking catches is all good, Wicket keepers usually take the most catches but that doesn't really mean much. At the end of the day Botham's overall stat vs the WI reads:

14.17 avg with the bat,

&

39 avg with the ball.

Even against Botham's main rival Australia, DEV has out-bowled Botham, I think we both agree DEV was a better player than Botham...

Bold....

 

[Romali_rotti]

Azhar mahmood had back to back centuries VS a great South African attack in their back yard, but we don’t go on about it.

Correct, that is because Azhar Mahmood was a nobody at the end of his career, while the 80s allrounders had all made huge impacts by the time they retired, so you have to micro analyze them to see who was truly the best...

 

[Robert]

....

I think Botham was the better batter and catcher, while Kapil was the better bowler.

 

[MenInG]

On this day

 

[happydavy]

On this day

Exactly my point in my earlier post. Kapil achieved so much so early that he didn't know what to do post that.

 

[Bhaijaan]

All time great test match opening fast bowler
One of the most dangerous batters of all time

Let’s put it this way. The above cannot be said for anyone else in the history of the game except Ian Botham, just that at being a dangerous batter Kapil was ahead.

Iconic, legendary, incomparable

 

[Robert]

All time great test match opening fast bowler
One of the most dangerous batters of all time

Let’s put it this way. The above cannot be said for anyone else in the history of the game except Ian Botham, just that at being a dangerous batter Kapil was ahead.

Iconic, legendary, incomparable

Also Keith Miller. He was a good a bat as both those guys and a better bowler than either. Goodness knows what he would have done had he debuted in tests before the age of 27.

 

[jeetu]

Among Test AR , my Top 5 would be
1. Sobers (Best Batting AR )
2. Imran (Best Bowling AR)
3. Kallis ( Second best Batting AR)
4. Miller (Second Best Bowliing AR)
5. Botham (Best Peak AR)

For me minimum criteria to classified as decent AR should be Batting avg over 25 , bowling average under 35.
Atleast 1000 test runs and more than 100 wickets.
[table=class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td]Player [/td][td]Span [/td][td]Mat [/td][td]Runs [/td][td]Bat Av [/td][td]100 [/td][td]Wkts [/td][td]Bowl Av [/td][td]5W [/td][td]Ave Diff [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]GS Sobers (WI) [/td][td]1954-1974 [/td][td]93 [/td][td]8032 [/td][td]57.78 [/td][td]26 [/td][td]235 [/td][td]34.03 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]23.74 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]JH Kallis (ICC/SA) [/td][td]1995-2013 [/td][td]166 [/td][td]13289 [/td][td]55.37 [/td][td]45 [/td][td]292 [/td][td]32.65 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]22.71 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Imran Khan (PAK) [/td][td]1971-1992 [/td][td]88 [/td][td]3807 [/td][td]37.69 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]362 [/td][td]22.81 [/td][td]23 [/td][td]14.88 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]KR Miller (AUS) [/td][td]1946-1956 [/td][td]55 [/td][td]2958 [/td][td]36.97 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]170 [/td][td]22.97 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]13.99 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]RA Jadeja (IND) [/td][td]2012-2022 [/td][td]60 [/td][td]2523 [/td][td]36.56 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]242 [/td][td]24.71 [/td][td]10 [/td][td]11.85 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]SM Pollock (SA) [/td][td]1995-2008 [/td][td]108 [/td][td]3781 [/td][td]32.31 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]421 [/td][td]23.11 [/td][td]16 [/td][td]9.19 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]TL Goddard (SA) [/td][td]1955-1970 [/td][td]41 [/td][td]2516 [/td][td]34.46 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]123 [/td][td]26.22 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]8.23 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]AW Greig (ENG) [/td][td]1972-1977 [/td][td]58 [/td][td]3599 [/td][td]40.43 [/td][td]8 [/td][td]141 [/td][td]32.2 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]8.23 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Shakib Al Hasan (BAN) [/td][td]2007-2022 [/td][td]65 [/td][td]4367 [/td][td]38.64 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]231 [/td][td]31.18 [/td][td]19 [/td][td]7.45 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]MA Noble (AUS) [/td][td]1898-1909 [/td][td]42 [/td][td]1997 [/td][td]30.25 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]121 [/td][td]25 [/td][td]9 [/td][td]5.25 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]IT Botham (ENG) [/td][td]1977-1992 [/td][td]102 [/td][td]5200 [/td][td]33.54 [/td][td]14 [/td][td]383 [/td][td]28.4 [/td][td]27 [/td][td]5.14 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ) [/td][td]1973-1990 [/td][td]86 [/td][td]3124 [/td][td]27.16 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]431 [/td][td]22.29 [/td][td]36 [/td][td]4.86 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]BA Stokes (ENG) [/td][td]2013-2022 [/td][td]89 [/td][td]5602 [/td][td]36.14 [/td][td]12 [/td][td]193 [/td][td]31.99 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]4.14 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]CL Cairns (NZ) [/td][td]1989-2004 [/td][td]62 [/td][td]3320 [/td][td]33.53 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]218 [/td][td]29.4 [/td][td]13 [/td][td]4.13 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]W Rhodes (ENG) [/td][td]1899-1930 [/td][td]58 [/td][td]2325 [/td][td]30.19 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]127 [/td][td]26.96 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]3.22 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]R Ashwin (IND) [/td][td]2011-2022 [/td][td]88 [/td][td]3043 [/td][td]27.41 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]449 [/td][td]24.3 [/td][td]30 [/td][td]3.11 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]N Kapil Dev (IND) [/td][td]1978-1994 [/td][td]131 [/td][td]5248 [/td][td]31.05 [/td][td]8 [/td][td]434 [/td][td]29.64 [/td][td]23 [/td][td]1.4 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]TE Bailey (ENG) [/td][td]1949-1959 [/td][td]61 [/td][td]2290 [/td][td]29.74 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]132 [/td][td]29.21 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]0.52 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]JO Holder (WI) [/td][td]2014-2022 [/td][td]58 [/td][td]2612 [/td][td]29.68 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]143 [/td][td]29.39 [/td][td]8 [/td][td]0.28 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]MW Tate (ENG) [/td][td]1924-1935 [/td][td]39 [/td][td]1198 [/td][td]25.48 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]155 [/td][td]26.16 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]-0.67 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]IK Pathan (IND) [/td][td]2003-2008 [/td][td]29 [/td][td]1105 [/td][td]31.57 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]100 [/td][td]32.26 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]-0.68 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]MH Mankad (IND) [/td][td]1946-1959 [/td][td]44 [/td][td]2109 [/td][td]31.47 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]162 [/td][td]32.32 [/td][td]8 [/td][td]-0.84 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]A Flintoff (ENG/ICC) [/td][td]1998-2009 [/td][td]79 [/td][td]3845 [/td][td]31.77 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]226 [/td][td]32.78 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]-1.01 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]CR Woakes (ENG) [/td][td]2013-2022 [/td][td]45 [/td][td]1675 [/td][td]27.91 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]130 [/td][td]30.73 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]-2.82 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]DL Vettori (ICC/NZ) [/td][td]1997-2014 [/td][td]113 [/td][td]4531 [/td][td]30 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]362 [/td][td]34.36 [/td][td]20 [/td][td]-4.36 [/td][/tr]
[/table]

Tweaking the table under stricter creteria would give smaller table.

 

[Ab Fan]

Also Keith Miller. He was a good a bat as both those guys and a better bowler than either. Goodness knows what he would have done had he debuted in tests before the age of 27.

Miller was not as good with bowl. He had like 160-170 wickets in 55 odd matches. That's hardly anything extraordinary. He was below Kapil and Botham. Probably Flintoff level.

Batting might be slightly better than both, somewhere close to Stokes.

 

[Robert]

Miller was not as good with bowl. He had like 160-170 wickets in 55 odd matches. That's hardly anything extraordinary. He was below Kapil and Botham. Probably Flintoff level.

Batting might be slightly better than both, somewhere close to Stokes.

Remember that Miller didn’t bowl in a few of those tests (because he didn’t know he could).

50 has always been the benchmark average for a top batter, and 20 to 22 for a top bowler.

Sir Len Hutton (batting average 56) said Miller (bowling average 22) was the most difficult bowler he ever faced - harder even than the great Ray Lindwall. Bear in mind that Miller kept the new ball out of the hands of the excellent left-armed Bill Johnston, and for a long time Alan Davidson too. I’d put Miller a way ahead of Botham with the ball.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Shoaib Akhtar’s dream ODI XI: Gordon Greenidge, Sachin Tendulkar, Inzamam-ul-Haq, Saeed Anwar, MS Dhoni, Adam Gilchrist, Yuvraj Singh, Wasim Akram, Waqar Younis, Kapil Dev, Shane Warne (c).

 

[BouncerGuy]

Happy Birthday to one the greatest All-rounders in cricket. Kapil Dev

https://twitter.com/x/status/1743472456399270136

 

[sam_ahm]

I only watched Kapil Paaji towards the very end of his career when he was close to retirement and even then he was bloody good, can only imagine how good he was during his peak period.

Definitely amongst ATGs in my view.

The man who won India a World Cup when we were 'nothing' and now there are guys now that despite being part of the richest cricket Board in the world, by miles, still cannot win an ICC event in 11 years and yet claim to be ATGs.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

People are amazed by Ben Stokes these days, Imagine having four allrounders all better than Stokes (except maybe Hadlee) in the same era.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Happy Birthday to one the greatest All-rounders in cricket. Kapil Dev

https://twitter.com/x/status/1743472456399270136

My old gripe with Dev was that he never took his batting seriously. Had he applied himself with the bat, he would have been one of the best batsmen in Indian cricket and also the world.

Dev was an amazing talent with the bat, 10K test runs with 20-25 x 100s were there for the taking by the end of his career (Too bad).....

 

[Ab Fan]

Overall, an all-time great of the game.

Specifically in Tests, he is an Indian great. Impressive wickets tally and carried that attack on his own for more than a decade. But was short in terms of the skill set as well as the actual performance of a true all-time great fast bowler calibre. He underachieved as a batsman as well, should have hit 15 hundreds at 34-35 average considering he played 130 tests.

 

[wrongun]

In Tests , Kapil Dev is behind

Sobers
Hadlee
Imran
Kallis
Botham
Miller
Pollock
Ashwin

Lol.

Ashwin isn't an allrounder and never held a test bowling world record... Ravi's Ashwin in the toughest country ? 40+ Kapil's avg in WI? <25 Ashwin shouldn't be said in the same breath.

Kallis? What did he ever win for his team? Pollock also barely an allrounder who won squat. Miller was a similar mindset to Kapil- a bit cavalier at times.

 

[Ab Fan]

Lol.

Ashwin isn't an allrounder and never held a test bowling world record... Ravi's Ashwin in the toughest country ? 40+ Kapil's avg in WI? <25 Ashwin shouldn't be said in the same breath.

Kallis? What did he ever win for his team? Pollock also barely an allrounder who won squat. Miller was a similar mindset to Kapil- a bit cavalier at times.

Yes, Ashwin is not a proper A/R. He is more of a bowling A/R like Hadlee.

Kallis whitewashed Pakistan in 2007 away from home and won in India in 1998. He also was standout performer in Champions Trophy 1998 with both bat and bowl. No other cricketer in the history has 200+ wickets with 10K runs tally. Kallis has 295 wickets with 13.5K runs tally.

Pollock is a close one but his bowling is ATG level so he can be categorised as ATG all rounder with 30+ average over 100+ tests.

 

[TheSultan]

Kapil was the worst of the 4 all rounders, but there’s no shame in that. He’s still the greatest Indian cricket ever

 

[BouncerGuy]

'In Pain' Kapil Dev Writes To BCCI, Ready To Donate Pension For Ailing Anshuman Gaekwad

India's World Cup-winning captain Kapil Dev has requested the Board of Control for Cricket in India (BCCI) to lend financial support to former teammate Anshuman Gaekwad, who is battling blood cancer. Gaekwad, 71, has been undergoing treatment for the past year at King's College Hospital in London. Kapil revealed that his former teammates such as Mohinder Amarnath, Sunil Gavaskar, Sandeep Patil, Dilip Vengsarkar, Madan Lal, Ravi Shastri and Kirti Azad are doing their best to generate funds for Gaikwad's treatment.

Kapil said he is confident that the BCCI will look into the matter and provide financial assistance to the former India head coach Gaekwad.

"It is a sad and very depressing. I am in pain because I have played alongside Anshu and can't bear to see him in this state. No one should suffer. I know the Board will take care of him. We are not compelling anyone. Any help for Anshu will have to come from your heart. He took blows on his face and chest when standing up to some of the ferocious fast bowlers. Now is the time for us to stand up for him. I am sure our cricket fans will not fail him. They should pray for his recovery," Kapil Dev told Sportstar.

The legendary all-rounder, however, rued the lack of a system where former players are assisted in cases like Anshuman's. Kapil also insisted that he is ready to give up his pension if the situation doesn't improve.

"Unfortunately, we don't have a system. It is great to see this generation of players make good money. It is good to see the support staff members also being paid well. In our time, the Board did not have the money. Today, it has and should take care of the senior players from the past. But where do they send their contributions? If a Trust is formed, they can put their money there. But we don't have a system. There should be a Trust. I think BCCI can do that. They do look after the players, former and present. We are ready to contribute by donating our pension amount if the family allows us to," he added.

Gaekwad's cricketing legacy is notable. He played 40 Tests and 15 ODIs for India between 1975 and 1987, and later served as India's head coach in two separate stints.

NDTV

 

[Romali_rotti]

Kapil was the worst of the 4 all rounders, but there’s no shame in that. He’s still the greatest Indian cricket ever

Yeah but Inzi is still the worst batsmen of pace though.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Kapil Dev's heartfelt message for cancer battling Anshuman: Will have drink together

Former India World Cup-winning captain Kapil Dev shared a heartfelt message for his former teammate and ex-Team India player Anshuman Gaekwad. He is currently batting with cancer and taking treatment in London and Kapil Dev continued to be there for his teammate in every form possible. Kapil Dev recounted old memories of him and Anshuman playing together. He also recalled how both of them had captained each other and prayed for his well-being. Kapil Dev also said that he has a lot to share with Anshuman and would love to catch up with him either over coffee or drink once he gets fine.

"Hi Anshu, I know you are going through a rough time, but it doesn't matter, we have all gone through rough times in life. I remember all the good days. The first time? When I played under you, you were my captain. And I remember when I was captain you got two hundred runs in Jalandhar against Pakistan, so good memories. Bad difficult times come and go, but I know that you are a fighter. Come on, cheer up and try to live a life, whatever God has given you and I wish you get better and better and be happy," Kapil Dev said in a video posted by journalist Vijay Lokapally.

Kapil Dev's support to Anshuman

It was Kapil Dev who had urged the BCCI to provide financial assistance to the ailing Anshuman Gaekwad. BCCI Secretary Jay Shah has announced an aid of Rs 1 crore for the former India cricketer who has been suffering from blood cancer. Shah personally spoke to Gaekwad's family to extend support in this tragic time for the former cricketer.

"We all have to go one day, but the best part about human beings is fighting it out the way you fight it out on the cricket field. Whatever is going to happen, will happen. I hope we meet soon. We will all celebrate together. We had a good time. You just look after yourself. It doesn't matter whatever happened, it happened for good, and I think you are a wonderful person. We had great stories to talk about. We have a lot to talk about, but firstly you need to get well soon. We will have coffee together and if nothing, then we can have a little drink together as well. Look after yourself. Love you from the entire cricket community. We all feel proud of you to remember that. Don't let us down? Look after yourself? Love you Anshu. Take care."

Kapil Dev had also informed that he was looking to arrange funds for Gakewad along with several former cricketers namely Mohinder Amarnath, Sunil Gavaskar, Sandeep Patil, Dilip Vengsarkar, Madan Lal, Ravi Shastri and Kirti Azad before BCCI announced the aid amount.

NDTV

 

[Bewal Express]

Loved his bowling action. It remains one of the great outswing bowling actions.

 

[shaz619]

Bottom of the barrel, handicapped by his height and genetics, very reliant on favourable conditions and an average batter. He is the Harbajan Singh of bowling.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Bottom of the barrel, handicapped by his height and genetics, very reliant on favourable conditions and an average batter. He is the Harbajan Singh of bowling.

Bit harsh. Rana Naved was a decent bowler.

 

[Cricket Warrior]

Loved his bowling action. It remains one of the great outswing bowling actions.

indeed... one of the best fast bowling all rounder India ever had... maybe after Haridk Pandya!

 

[Local.Dada]

Think of Kapil this way-

Bowling in tests he was a Chaminda Vaas level bowler in tests. Similar type swing bowler who bowled in the 130s. On top of that he was more or less the sole pacer bowling on unhelpful dry and placid tracks. No one says Kapil was a fearsome bowler or threatening but no one would say oh he was easy-peasy to play or a trundler He has enough respect of his cricketing peers just like Vaas and also doesn’t get talked about a lot as a bowler.

Batting in tests: I would say Mccullum type player who is seen more as a LOI batsman but delivered in tests too, played some destructive knocks vs A grade attacks.

Batting and Bowling on ODIs: He was an Afridi level X factor cricketer in that era, could win games with bat or ball but inconsistent but crowd-favorite player. Just like Afridi either people fanboy over him or call him a hack but he was a gun white ball player. I would say Afridi-Kapil is an apt comparison.

Fielding: He definitely was one of the most athletic fielders in the subcontinent.


So in isolation Kapil might look like a 2nd tier, 3rd tier great but combine all those attributes of those other good players to make this 1 player, you will see a different context.

Winning a worldcup at 24 defeating the mighty WI in England? What a dream career.

 

[shaz619]

Bit harsh. Kapil Chacha was a decent bowler.

If you say so, he has his following of a similar ilk though.

 

[Local.Dada]

Botham is one of those overhyped Englishmen who put up numbers probably by bashing weak teams of his era at home but apart from Aussie bashing and that too in the 80s when they were not the juggernaut they became later never got the appeal. At least Imran Khan, Kapil Dev have achieved at the world stage, won world tournaments.

I would bet Shardul Thakur would be Sir Shardul Thakur if he was born in England and played in the 80s maybe even count or viscount.

 

[Local.Dada]

What works for bottom is white milk toast British folk over hype him and get off on some useless ashes bashing , some Pakistanis (not all.obviously we all know the type) hype him to kind of undermine Kapil and push him further down the list. Maybe there is a legitimate point but don’t buy it as genuine analysis form those type. Apart from that good player but another overhyped guy because he is English and to sweeten it- white.

 

[Bewal Express]

indeed... one of the best fast bowling all rounder India ever had... maybe after Haridk Pandya!

Kepil was much more talented and a much better bowler. His knee injury destroyed his pace and made his 1/2 the bowler.

 

[Ab Fan]

Think of Kapil this way-

Bowling in tests he was a Chaminda Vaas level bowler in tests. Similar type swing bowler who bowled in the 130s. On top of that he was more or less the sole pacer bowling on unhelpful dry and placid tracks. No one says Kapil was a fearsome bowler or threatening but no one would say oh he was easy-peasy to play or a trundler He has enough respect of his cricketing peers just like Vaas and also doesn’t get talked about a lot as a bowler.

Batting in tests: I would say Mccullum type player who is seen more as a LOI batsman but delivered in tests too, played some destructive knocks vs A grade attacks.

Batting and Bowling on ODIs: He was an Afridi level X factor cricketer in that era, could win games with bat or ball but inconsistent but crowd-favorite player. Just like Afridi either people fanboy over him or call him a hack but he was a gun white ball player. I would say Afridi-Kapil is an apt comparison.

Fielding: He definitely was one of the most athletic fielders in the subcontinent.


So in isolation Kapil might look like a 2nd tier, 3rd tier great but combine all those attributes of those other good players to make this 1 player, you will see a different context.

Winning a worldcup at 24 defeating the mighty WI in England? What a dream career.

Kapil in Tests was better than Vaas comfortably. He had 260 test wickets in 5 years, Shami took 10-11 years and still hasn't reached there.

 

[Local.Dada]

Kapil in Tests was better than Vaas comfortably. He had 260 test wickets in 5 years, Shami took 10-11 years and still hasn't reached there.

Fair point. Was trying to breakdown for few. Weird to see a cricket forum where we have to explain how good Kapil was but it is what it is.

 

[rpant_gabba]

Kepil was much more talented and a much better bowler. His knee injury destroyed his pace and made his 1/2 the bowler.

you forgot his slip fieldsman.

Viswanath (unathletic butter fingered slob) at first slip. Kirmani covered for him a bit
Gavaskar at second slip. (nothing to write home about)
Vengsarkar at 3rd unathletic slob

For an outswing bowler that is one of slip cordon ever

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I think back then India wasn't as fashionable to gets overlooked a lot.

Looking back at stats and footage he was a GOAT.

I hope history is kind to him and respects his value.

 

[Bewal Express]

you forgot his slip fieldsman.

Viswanath (unathletic butter fingered slob) at first slip. Kirmani covered for him a bit
Gavaskar at second slip. (nothing to write home about)
Vengsarkar at 3rd unathletic slob

For an outswing bowler that is one of slip cordon ever

No doubt you are right. My 1st memory of him (quite hazy) was on the 82 tour, and he was sharp and bowled beautiful outswing. But the knee injury took his pace by a considerable margin. His brain was still working but the body never went along after his injury

 

[rpant_gabba]

No doubt you are right. My 1st memory of him( quite hazy) was on the 82 tour, and he was sharp and bowled beautiful outswing. But the knee injury took his pace by a considerable margin. His brain was still working but the body never went along after his injury

add to it that the bowler at the other end couldn't even maintain line and length, leave alone have pace.

Botham had Willis

Imran had safraz

hadlee had chatfield

Kapil had Ghavri, madan lal, shival yadav, mohinder amarnath. you get the picture

 

[Romali_rotti]

Bottom of the barrel, handicapped by his height and genetics, very reliant on favourable conditions and an average batter. He is the Harbajan Singh of bowling.

Taller than our boy Imran.