Where does Pakistan deserve to be in the World Test Championship table?

[Sidilicious]

Indian bowlers though have a history of disappearing in few years time so the challenge is to ensure it doesn’t happen with this generation

I’m old enough to remember the hype around Pathan, RP Singh and Munaf Patel as well and they did well but then faded away.

Thought tbf Shami And Ishant have already outlasted them all

The thing is we have quite a few good prospects coming along. However, it will only take a career threatening injury or two for our bowling fortunes to turn 180. We need to work on developing our prospects.

The target should be to be like Pakistani fast bowling of the 90s, or the current SA bowling. Whoever they bring, comes in and impresses the world.

 

[geraltofrivia]

Indian bowlers though have a history of disappearing in few years time so the challenge is to ensure it doesn’t happen with this generation

I’m old enough to remember the hype around Pathan, RP Singh and Munaf Patel as well and they did well but then faded away.

Thought tbf Shami And Ishant have already outlasted them all

Pathan, RP Singh and Munaf had really short careers.

Shami and Ishant (and Yadav too) are beyond that.

Mohd Shami has 175 wickets, Ishant 292 and Yadav 142.

Bumrah has more wickets than Munaf or RP.

Those days are gone forever. India's economic growth has ensured that by enlarging the player pool and ensuring better facilities. India will always have good fast bowlers and spinners now with a few ATGs sprinkled in. By the end of the 2020s India will be to cricket what the US is to basketball.

 

[Sidilicious]

Pathan, RP Singh and Munaf had really short careers.

Shami and Ishant (and Yadav too) are beyond that.

Mohd Shami has 175 wickets, Ishant 292 and Yadav 142.

Bumrah has more wickets than Munaf or RP.

Those days are gone forever. India's economic growth has ensured that by enlarging the player pool and ensuring better facilities. India will always have good fast bowlers and spinners now with a few ATGs sprinkled in. By the end of the 2020s India will be to cricket what the US is to basketball.

Thoda zyada ho Gaya. Nothing is forever. If we dont systematically work on our pace bowling, our bowling resources will not fall off the tree automatically. It took nearly 10 years after the IPL for our bowling to get here. Its not an easy journey nor is it given. It happened due to the hard work of the bowlers and the management.

 

[zn426]

Pakistan's biggest problem

Is the state of the economy and PCB's chaotic structure. A money wealthy Board like the BCCI can get away with some favoritism because they have enough money and population to recover from mistakes. Pakistan can't.
The S&C still needs a massive turnaround, but it must go hand in hand with an overall cultural turnaround in Pakistan on what a healthy diet and eating is, and enough of the silliness on vaccination conspiracy theories.
I would advise having our youngest players being used in marketing campaigns for healthy food.

 

[geraltofrivia]

Thoda zyada ho Gaya. Nothing is forever. If we dont systematically work on our pace bowling, our bowling resources will not fall off the tree automatically. It took nearly 10 years after the IPL for our bowling to get here. Its not an easy journey nor is it given. It happened due to the hard work of the bowlers and the management.

the systemic working will happen simply because the SYSTEM has changed. India is a far wealthier country now than it was a decade ago and it is percolating to all fields including cricket. There is a reason the Indian team is so good now as is the Ind U-19 setup.

Rich countries do well in sports as there is money to be put in the system. As India keeps getting richer, the team will keep getting stronger.

 

[andy0204]

the systemic working will happen simply because the SYSTEM has changed. India is a far wealthier country now than it was a decade ago and it is percolating to all fields including cricket. There is a reason the Indian team is so good now as is the Ind U-19 setup.

Rich countries do well in sports as there is money to be put in the system. As India keeps getting richer, the team will keep getting stronger.

After all this years we only improved in cricket that means how well we are developing.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

Pathan, RP Singh and Munaf had really short careers.

Shami and Ishant (and Yadav too) are beyond that.

Mohd Shami has 175 wickets, Ishant 292 and Yadav 142.

Bumrah has more wickets than Munaf or RP.

Those days are gone forever. India's economic growth has ensured that by enlarging the player pool and ensuring better facilities. India will always have good fast bowlers and spinners now with a few ATGs sprinkled in. By the end of the 2020s India will be to cricket what the US is to basketball.

Have you seen how easily US' Olympics basketball team wins? They only get serious in semis, such is their advantage.

To reach that kind of domination in cricket, India will need at least a decade of consistent phaibtas to everyone everywhere.

I think only the great WIs (whose only draws were against Pak and lost to no one) and Aussies are the only ones who had that level of dominance.

 

[geraltofrivia]

Have you seen how easily US' Olympics basketball team wins? They only get serious in semis, such is their advantage.

To reach that kind of domination in cricket, India will need at least a decade of consistent phaibtas to everyone everywhere.

I think only the great WIs (whose only draws were against Pak and lost to no one) and Aussies are the only ones who had that level of dominance.

It will be a work in progress but the Indian team will ultimately reach that level. The economy will ensure that.

 

[geraltofrivia]

After all this years we only improved in cricket that means how well we are developing.

I think the improved showing in commonwealth, Asian and Olympic Games compared to the earlier days indicates it’s not just cricket.

 

[ahsan17]

Pakistani fast bowlers were being smacked around like the mediocre trundles they are in oz, same place where the Indian fast bowlers were awesome.

Are you intentionally leaving out the fact that Warner and Smith didn't play in that series?

 

[Hasan123]

We will not be 3rd for long. South Africa and England will gain points as they are playing each other. New Zealand have West Indies and us next year.

Would not read too much into this ranking.

 

[geraltofrivia]

Are you intentionally leaving out the fact that Warner and Smith didn't play in that series?

None of mine or the Indian cricket team's business. They played the best team available. We defeated them fair and square.

 

[Junaids]

Pathan, RP Singh and Munaf had really short careers.

Shami and Ishant (and Yadav too) are beyond that.

Mohd Shami has 175 wickets, Ishant 292 and Yadav 142.

Bumrah has more wickets than Munaf or RP.

Those days are gone forever. India's economic growth has ensured that by enlarging the player pool and ensuring better facilities. India will always have good fast bowlers and spinners now with a few ATGs sprinkled in. By the end of the 2020s India will be to cricket what the US is to basketball.

I think you have actually summed up the problem!

Mohammad Shami is "29" years old and has only ever taken 175 Test wickets. On 5 of his 6 Tours of SENA he averaged over 35 with the ball.

Ishant Sharma is "31" but has a lot of miles on the clock, and has 292 wickets......at an average of 33.

Umesh Yadav is even older, 32, and has only ever taken 142 wickets, also at an average the wrong side of 30.

Bumrah is superb, but the other three are deeply mediocre, and only look good currently because South Africa has sunk so low. Apart from Bumrah this is the same Indian pace attack which lost multiple Test series outside Asia.

I think India will stay ahead of Pakistan because of its batting. But Pakistan's superior emerging fast bowling stocks will probably narrow the gulf right down this next half decade.

 

[ahsan17]

None of mine or the Indian cricket team's business. They played the best team available. We defeated them fair and square.

Yes, but nevertheless then you shouldn't be making a comparison that is a genuinely bad comparison. You could say Pakistani bowlers were bowling like trundlers, which is true. But then you compare it to Indian bowling, which is obviously a bad comparison since Indian bowling didn't face those players.

It's sort of like saying performing against West Indies of 80s is the same as West Indies of 2000s, because it's not your fault the team of 2000s didn't put the same players forward.

 

[geraltofrivia]

I think you have actually summed up the problem!

Mohammad Shami is "29" years old and has only ever taken 175 Test wickets. On 5 of his 6 Tours of SENA he averaged over 35 with the ball.

Ishant Sharma is "31" but has a lot of miles on the clock, and has 292 wickets......at an average of 33.

Umesh Yadav is even older, 32, and has only ever taken 142 wickets, also at an average the wrong side of 30.

Bumrah is superb, but the other three are deeply mediocre, and only look good currently because South Africa has sunk so low. Apart from Bumrah this is the same Indian pace attack which lost multiple Test series outside Asia.

I think India will stay ahead of Pakistan because of its batting. But Pakistan's superior emerging fast bowling stocks will probably narrow the gulf right down this next half decade.

Wow, I really like how you mentioned Ishant and Umesh's averages but skipped "deeply mediocre" Shami's. And considering Shami averaged below 30 in both the 2018 tours of SA and Oz, your "fact" is an outright LIE.

Also Umesh does have an average better than any Pakistani fast bowler with 100 wickets post Asif (who retired a decade ago). And considering his recent form it will dip below 30 soon. So much for superior "fast bowling".

And using Ishant's overall career average is again disingenuous considering the fact that his last 150 wickets have come at 26-27 (no Pakistani pacer has taken more than 100 wickets in the last decade).

Pakistani's "superior" emerging fast bowling stocks is as mediocre as they come as we saw in the tours of Aus and SA where they were being smashed around by Labuschagne who struggled against the Indian fast bowlers. These guys will go the same way as Amir, Wahab, Gul etc who all average way below "mediocre" Umesh.

 

[geraltofrivia]

Yes, but nevertheless then you shouldn't be making a comparison that is a genuinely bad comparison. You could say Pakistani bowlers were bowling like trundlers, which is true. But then you compare it to Indian bowling, which is obviously a bad comparison since Indian bowling didn't face those players.

It's sort of like saying performing against West Indies of 80s is the same as West Indies of 2000s, because it's not your fault the team of 2000s didn't put the same players forward.

Labuschagne was the same. What about that?

 

[ahsan17]

Labuschagne was the same. What about that?

Is the batting unit made up of one player? Who scored the most runs in the series vs Pakistan?

 

[geraltofrivia]

Is the batting unit made up of one player? Who scored the most runs in the series vs Pakistan?

Yeah. But Labsuchagne scored plenty of runs himself. What about that? The excuse doesn't fly.

Pakistan also bowled to a weaker SA team in 2019 than India did in 2018 and came out poorly there too compared to the Indian bowlers who all averaged below 30 and managed to win a match.

 

[ahsan17]

Yeah. But Labsuchagne scored plenty of runs himself. What about that? The excuse doesn't fly.

So Australia not having two of their best batsmen vs India is an excuse to you. Got it. Lots of marks for making logical arguments. The fact that you fail to consider that the player who made most runs vs Pakistan didn't even play against India means either you are arguing dishonestly or you are genuinely unable to see the obvious reason why it's an important difference.

You can make your point without comparing it to the India series. There's still time to say that the Indian series comparison is not good, but nevertheless Pakistani bowlers bowled like trundlers.

Pakistan also bowled to a weaker SA team in 2019 than India did in 2018 and came out poorly there too compared to the Indian bowlers who all averaged below 30 and managed to win a match.

You continue to make comparisons that are bad but also unnecessary. I'll let you figure out the major differences between the two series here:

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...most_wickets_career.html?id=12339;type=series
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...most_wickets_career.html?id=12081;type=series

As usual, you can make your point without the comparison, but you choose to make comparisons.

 

[geraltofrivia]

So Australia not having two of their best batsmen vs India is an excuse to you. Got it. Lots of marks for making logical arguments. The fact that you fail to consider that the player who made most runs vs Pakistan didn't even play against India means either you are arguing dishonestly or you are genuinely unable to see the obvious reason why it's an important difference.

You can make your point without comparing it to the India series. There's still time to say that the Indian series comparison is not good, but nevertheless Pakistani bowlers bowled like trundlers.



You continue to make comparisons that are bad but also unnecessary. I'll let you figure out the major differences between the two series here:

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...most_wickets_career.html?id=12339;type=series
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...most_wickets_career.html?id=12081;type=series

As usual, you can make your point without the comparison, but you choose to make comparisons.

Pakistanis bowled worse?

 

[ahsan17]

Pakistanis bowled worse?

You didn't click on the two links I sent you.

 

[jnaveen1980]

I think you have actually summed up the problem!

Mohammad Shami is "29" years old and has only ever taken 175 Test wickets. On 5 of his 6 Tours of SENA he averaged over 35 with the ball.

Ishant Sharma is "31" but has a lot of miles on the clock, and has 292 wickets......at an average of 33.

Umesh Yadav is even older, 32, and has only ever taken 142 wickets, also at an average the wrong side of 30.

Bumrah is superb, but the other three are deeply mediocre, and only look good currently because South Africa has sunk so low. Apart from Bumrah this is the same Indian pace attack which lost multiple Test series outside Asia.

I think India will stay ahead of Pakistan because of its batting. But Pakistan's superior emerging fast bowling stocks will probably narrow the gulf right down this next half decade.

Bhuvi has a career average of 26 as well. Since he gained a little pace he has bowled well. Injuries are the only reason he is not a regular. Over last 5 years only team that has produced better bowling average for pacers is SA. We are talking about teams like England, Australia, NZ, Windies who could not match the average of Indian fast bowling in the last 5 years. Same guys who were unable to move the ball are moving consistently now. Under Dhoni , Ishant was totally wasted as that bozo kept asking him to bowl short. Under Kohli pace attack is completely invigorated. He just loves pace bowlers. He will continue grooming them. There is an array of fast bowlers in the domestic waiting to make the mark. It is an open secret under Dhoni Indian fast bowling regressed. Under Kohli they are thriving. They will continue thriving as long as he is at the helm.

 

[BreadPakoda]

Indian bowlers though have a history of disappearing in few years time so the challenge is to ensure it doesn’t happen with this generation

That’s the case with Pakistani “pacers” these days.

Junaid
Amir
Ruman
Talha
Sohail Tanvir
Wahab
Bhatti
Anwar
Rahat
Hasan
Ehsan
Tanvir Ahmed
Sohail Khan
Mohammad Irfan
Hasnain
Musa
Imran Khan Senior

17 names and counting. Of course I can’t remember a few worse ones.

It’s an embarrassing list of mostly medium-fast bowlers who didn’t stay relevant mostly beyond a few seasons.

 

[GrandMaster]

The Test Championship result would look something like this,

1. Australia / India
2. India / Australia
3. New Zealand
4. England
5. South Africa
6. Pakistan
7. West Indies
8. Bangladesh

 

[Mesozoic]

The Test Championship result would look something like this,

1. Australia / India
2. India / Australia
3. New Zealand
4. England
5. South Africa
6. Pakistan
7. West Indies
8. Bangladesh

Sri Lanka ?

I think it would most definitely be -

India
Australia
England
New Zealand
Pakistan
South Africa
Sri Lanka
West Indies
Bangladesh

 

[pratiktc]

One must admire OP's capacity to see silver lining in every dark cloud.

Pak fast bowling is at its weakest and least experienced since early 2000s, has suffered through a lost generation of fast bowlers who should have been peaking now (Amir, Junaid, Hasan) and yet he only sees the positive side of these developments

 

[BreadPakoda]

Pakistan is tied with Sri Lanka at 4/5 now

 

[MenInG]

 

[Sunny_majoka]

View attachment 98256

How series count of England is 1

 

[jnaveen1980]

How series count of England is 1

NZ/England series was not part of the Test championship. It was scheduled much before that.

 

[sweep_shot]

I think Pakistan are currently #6 in Test.

Here's my ranking (top 8 teams):

1. India.
2. Australia.
3. NZ.
4. England.
5. South Africa.
6. Pakistan.
7. SL.
8. West Indies.

 

[Sunny_majoka]

NZ/England series was not part of the Test championship. It was scheduled much before that.

Oh.. ok thanks

 

[ChennaiFan]

I think Pakistan are currently #6 in Test.

Here's my ranking (top 8 teams):

1. India.
2. Australia.
3. NZ.
4. England.
5. South Africa.
6. Pakistan.
7. SL.
8. West Indies.

This sounds about right. Pakistan used to be a decent team, but not these days. They can win odd tests here and there. I expect Sri Lanka and West Indies to do well in tests in the coming years.

 

[tyron_woodley]

I expect pakistan to win all homes series and beat England or draw England away.

They may or may not beat south africa at home though.

 

[Pakhs]

They may finish 4th but it irrelevant which is essentially a 3 team even.

 

[AMSS]

Unsure if this new OP is a moderate upgrade over the pathways opening thread.

 

[shamaan]

Pakistan win all home series
They will either beat or draw against england and I expect them to draw against south africa

 

[barah_admi]

Pak should have a series win over Bang and then at least a draw against England (considering Pak maintain fitness and their players carry on improving)...that should still leave them around the 3/4 mark, which is where they should be at with the current crop of players. Maybe 5 is a truer reflection at the end of season 1.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Pak should have a series win over Bang and then at least a draw against England (considering Pak maintain fitness and their players carry on improving)...that should still leave them around the 3/4 mark, which is where they should be at with the current crop of players. Maybe 5 is a truer reflection at the end of season 1.

no way. minimum 4th.

india/Australia
Australia /india
pakistan
south africa if they beat England
new zeland
England (if they beat south africa then 5th or 4th is possible)
west indies
Bangladesh

I expect south africa to beat England.
india should roll over England comfortably.
Don't see England beating pakistan.

new zeland is extremely lucky. They are weaker than England away from home but they are very powerful at home. England have a tendency to choke at home sometimes and that could hurt them in the long run.

 

[barah_admi]

no way. minimum 4th.

india/Australia
Australia /india
pakistan
south africa if they beat England
new zeland
England (if they beat south africa then 5th or 4th is possible)
west indies
Bangladesh

I expect south africa to beat England.
india should roll over England comfortably.
Don't see England beating pakistan.

new zeland is extremely lucky. They are weaker than England away from home but they are very powerful at home. England have a tendency to choke at home sometimes and that could hurt them in the long run.

Is England playing India in this cycle of WTC? And if so, is it home or away?

 

[tyron_woodley]

Is England playing India in this cycle of WTC? And if so, is it home or away?

away. no one is going to win in india. England has a terrible schedule. it's in 2021.
They absolutely have to beat saffers away.

I will back my protea boys to step up and stop them though.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Pakistan is a terrible matchup for englsnd because they let Pakistani players play county. Lot of the Pakistani players are excellent with the dukes ball hence they are comfortable with the swing conditions.

Plus pakistam have a lot of home support in England. Historically that's why pakistan will always have the edge over England.

abbas, shaheen and naseem are more than good enough in swing conditons. I fact abbas thrives in pitches that offer swing. naseem with his explosive speed and shaheen with his bounce and variation will trouble the Englishmen.

Pakistan's weakness is bounce. Only saffers, Aussies can exploit that weakness since they prepare bouncy tracks. New zeland is also beatable for pakistan provided they pick the right team.

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

Why do so many posters go round the fact that PAK haven't played any test series in Pakistan throughout the previous decade?

It's a bit unfair to bash them based on stats. Imagine ENG never playing at home. Their stats would be atrocious because we all know how bad they are as tourists. Same story with AUS in Asia.

The fact the PAK retains the ability to defeat ENG and NZ often despite not playing at home is a big achievement.
That leaves SA, AUS and IND as the teams we haven't beaten in a while. No shame in that tbh when you're always touring.

If PAK plays all their home series in PAK in this decade then I'm sure we'll end up in the Top 4 sides because of talents like Babar, Abid, Shaheen, Naseem, Shinwari etc.

 

[sharmaji]

Yes they do. To quote a notorious political commentator, "Facts dont care about your feelings".

 

[barah_admi]

away. no one is going to win in india. England has a terrible schedule. it's in 2021.
They absolutely have to beat saffers away.

I will back my protea boys to step up and stop them though.

So it won't be part of this WTC?

Anyway that is counter to the discussion here.

 

[Abdullah719]

So it won't be part of this WTC?

Anyway that is counter to the discussion here.

It is a part of the WTC. England in India, 5 Test series in Jan/Feb 2021.

 

[barah_admi]

It is a part of the WTC. England in India, 5 Test series in Jan/Feb 2021.

Ahh ok...a 3 or more test loss could seriously affect England and probably put them into a position below Pakistan.

 

[Hasan123]

If anyone actually believes that Pakistan is the 3rd best test team they are absolutely deluded.

 

[tyron_woodley]

If anyone actually believes that Pakistan is the 3rd best test team they are absolutely deluded.

look realistically in my personal opinion based on the ability and potential of the teams I rank them as follows;

india
australia
south africa ( I still believe they will turn things around. They have a good core)
pakistan
England
new zealand
Sri Lanka
west indies
Bangladesh
Afghanistan

pakistan and England are interchangeable. Depends who shows up.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

Why do so many posters go round the fact that PAK haven't played any test series in Pakistan throughout the previous decade?

It's a bit unfair to bash them based on stats. Imagine ENG never playing at home. Their stats would be atrocious because we all know how bad they are as tourists. Same story with AUS in Asia.

The fact the PAK retains the ability to defeat ENG and NZ often despite not playing at home is a big achievement.
That leaves SA, AUS and IND as the teams we haven't beaten in a while. No shame in that tbh when you're always touring.

If PAK plays all their home series in PAK in this decade then I'm sure we'll end up in the Top 4 sides because of talents like Babar, Abid, Shaheen, Naseem, Shinwari etc.

Well said. The psychological advantage of playing in home conditions is something our team has missed badly.

UAE is not our home. We should stop playing there.

PS: In a Pak v Ind test/odi series, you never know! We might beat them.

 

[Titan24]

Why do so many posters go round the fact that PAK haven't played any test series in Pakistan throughout the previous decade?

It's a bit unfair to bash them based on stats. Imagine ENG never playing at home. Their stats would be atrocious because we all know how bad they are as tourists. Same story with AUS in Asia.

The fact the PAK retains the ability to defeat ENG and NZ often despite not playing at home is a big achievement.
That leaves SA, AUS and IND as the teams we haven't beaten in a while. No shame in that tbh when you're always touring.

If PAK plays all their home series in PAK in this decade then I'm sure we'll end up in the Top 4 sides because of talents like Babar, Abid, Shaheen, Naseem, Shinwari etc.

Well put. Irrespective of what many believe would or wouldnt have happened if Pak played at home cant subside the fact that Pak didnt play at home where most of the teams rile up their points. Yes Pak did well in UAE but it wasnt home and there are a lot of things in terms of development of cricket or players in the couldnt happen because of playing home matches in UAE.

 

[Junaids]

If anyone actually believes that Pakistan is the 3rd best test team they are absolutely deluded.

I started this thread, and I can assure you the question was not “who are the third best team today?”

The question is more complex: it is

“Test teams go up and down according to the current crop of players. Overall, across the next decade, where do you think Pakistan belongs?”

I would argue the following:

1. New Zealand and South Africa have ageing teams with an inferior next generation.

2. For England, Stokes, Archer and Root are the only international class players aged under 30, and the younger players are essentially talentless.

3. Compared with England, New Zealand and South Africa, Pakistan’s emerging Test talent aged 25 and under (Shaheen Shah Afridi, Naseem Shah, Babar Azam, Shadab Khan) are in a much higher class.

You can laugh at me including Shadab Khan. Then ask yourself whether Santner, Bess and Maharaj are really better as batsmen or bowlers!

 

[tyron_woodley]

I started this thread, and I can assure you the question was not “who are the third best team today?”

The question is more complex: it is

“Test teams go up and down according to the current crop of players. Overall, across the next decade, where do you think Pakistan belongs?”

I would argue the following:

1. New Zealand and South Africa have ageing teams with an inferior next generation.

2. For England, Stokes, Archer and Root are the only international class players aged under 30, and the younger players are essentially talentless.

3. Compared with England, New Zealand and South Africa, Pakistan’s emerging Test talent aged 25 and under (Shaheen Shah Afridi, Naseem Shah, Babar Azam, Shadab Khan) are in a much higher class.

You can laugh at me including Shadab Khan. Then ask yourself whether Santner, Bess and Maharaj are really better as batsmen or bowlers!

bro new zeland are only good at home and that too only if they win the toss.
Pakistan would clean them up now.

I totally agree with posters about not playing in pakistan affecting the development of players. Pakistan are difficult to beat In pakistan.

india, australia, pakistan should be top 3 in the future along with south africa.

trust me saffers will bounce back strong. Lot of good young talent coming through. verryenne, Mulder, janneman Malan (brother of Pieter who is even better), hamza, coeetze, nandre burger. Not to mention mainstays like rabada, nortje, ngidi.

 

[Junaids]

bro new zeland are only good at home and that too only if they win the toss.
Pakistan would clean them up now.

I totally agree with posters about not playing in pakistan affecting the development of players. Pakistan are difficult to beat In pakistan.

india, australia, pakistan should be top 3 in the future along with south africa.

trust me saffers will bounce back strong. Lot of good young talent coming through. verryenne, Mulder, janneman Malan (brother of Pieter who is even better), hamza, coeetze, nandre burger. Not to mention mainstays like rabada, nortje, ngidi.

I largely agree, except about South Africa.

Kagiso Rabada is almost 25, yet his away Test bowling average is just over 30 - exactly the same as Shaheen Shah Afridi.

If South Africa was allowed to pick the best eleven players they would be Number 3. But just like Wagner and Abbott and Watling and Labuschagne, most of the white players you just listed will end up based in other countries.

I think Pakistan and England are overtaking them now.

 

[tyron_woodley]

I largely agree, except about South Africa.

Kagiso Rabada is almost 25, yet his away Test bowling average is just over 30 - exactly the same as Shaheen Shah Afridi.

If South Africa was allowed to pick the best eleven players they would be Number 3. But just like Wagner and Abbott and Watling and Labuschagne, most of the white players you just listed will end up based in other countries.

I think Pakistan and England are overtaking them now.

hope not. Well there has been structural changes. Kolpak will no longer exist due to brexit. So that stops the outflow of saffers moving to Englan.

However they could still move abroad to australia and New Zealand.

off the top my head this would be saffers best team if all south african origin players played for south africa.

janneman Malan (you have to watch this guy. he is very talented)
elgar or Pieter malaan
marnus labuschagne
Kyle verryene
van der dussen
faaf du plesis (needs a replacement)
QDK over watling
Simon harmer (mahraj backup)
rabada (ngidi)
nortje (Wagner. I believe nortje is better)
abbott (duane olivier)

they would still be bad in subcontinent but they will do well in SENA. You reckon this team is top 3/4?

 

[Junaids]

hope not. Well there has been structural changes. Kolpak will no longer exist due to brexit. So that stops the outflow of saffers moving to Englan.

However they could still move abroad to australia and New Zealand.

off the top my head this would be saffers best team if all south african origin players played for south africa.

janneman Malan (you have to watch this guy. he is very talented)
elgar or Pieter malaan
marnus labuschagne
Kyle verryene
van der dussen
faaf du plesis (needs a replacement)
QDK over watling
Simon harmer (mahraj backup)
rabada (ngidi)
nortje (Wagner. I believe nortje is better)
abbott (duane olivier)

they would still be bad in subcontinent but they will do well in SENA. You reckon this team is top 3/4?

With respect, Brexit will accelerate the loss of players to England.

Kolpak will be superseded by the UK opening its doors far more to “white” Commonwealth nations. Already the UK/EU immigration machines and desks at UK airports have been opened up to Australian, Canadian and New Zealand citizens.

This is not the forum, but in many ways Brexit is not a closedown towards immigration, it’s just a reorientation back towards the Commonwealth and the USA.

 

[tyron_woodley]

With respect, Brexit will accelerate the loss of players to England.

Kolpak will be superseded by the UK opening its doors far more to “white” Commonwealth nations. Already the UK/EU immigration machines and desks at UK airports have been opened up to Australian, Canadian and New Zealand citizens.

This is not the forum, but in many ways Brexit is not a closedown towards immigration, it’s just a reorientation back towards the Commonwealth and the USA.

really? that is bad. Oh well. csnt blame the players right? they want to do what's best for their family. Saffers need to pay their players well then.

look at stokes. left n.z to play for England.

 

[Mesozoic]

Rory Burns and Sam Curran are talentless but Shadab khan is a "high class" int'l Test talent.

Got to laugh at the delusions over here.

 

[Hasan123]

I started this thread, and I can assure you the question was not “who are the third best team today?”

The question is more complex: it is

“Test teams go up and down according to the current crop of players. Overall, across the next decade, where do you think Pakistan belongs?”

I would argue the following:

1. New Zealand and South Africa have ageing teams with an inferior next generation.

2. For England, Stokes, Archer and Root are the only international class players aged under 30, and the younger players are essentially talentless.

3. Compared with England, New Zealand and South Africa, Pakistan’s emerging Test talent aged 25 and under (Shaheen Shah Afridi, Naseem Shah, Babar Azam, Shadab Khan) are in a much higher class.

You can laugh at me including Shadab Khan. Then ask yourself whether Santner, Bess and Maharaj are really better as batsmen or bowlers!

Pakistan are not better than NZ and South Africa no matter how many under 30 players they have.

 

[Hasan123]

look realistically in my personal opinion based on the ability and potential of the teams I rank them as follows;

india
australia
south africa ( I still believe they will turn things around. They have a good core)
pakistan
England
new zealand
Sri Lanka
west indies
Bangladesh
Afghanistan

pakistan and England are interchangeable. Depends who shows up.

New Zealand and England are better than Pakistan because they are capable of beating the bigger teams. Pakistan has hardly any chance against Australia and India in most conditions.


Pakistan have lost to Sri Lanka and New Zealand at home. Beaten black and blue in South Africa and Australia. Also we lost easily the last time we played in in NZ.

We are a poor test team.

 

[Junaids]

Rory Burns and Sam Curran are talentless but Shadab khan is a "high class" int'l Test talent.

Got to laugh at the delusions over here.

Rory Burns is massively mediocre - he is a Poor Man’s Shan Masood.

My issues with height don’t just extend to Pakistan. Sam Curran is so short that after 14 Tests he has only 32 wickets - he is roughly half the bowler his Dad was, and half the batsman too.

His height means he can only ever be the Fourth Seamer - but we already have one in Ben Stokes. And Curran is too short and too slow to be in the three main quicks.

I’m English and I’m well aware that our next six years are Root + Stokes + Archer and 8 Journeymen.

I’d kill for England to have a Shadab Khan.

 

[tyron_woodley]

New Zealand and England are better than Pakistan because they are capable of beating the bigger teams. Pakistan has hardly any chance against Australia and India in most conditions.


Pakistan have lost to Sri Lanka and New Zealand at home. Beaten black and blue in South Africa and Australia. Also we lost easily the last time we played in in NZ.

We are a poor test team.

that was a pakistan team in transition. I don't think n.z or Lanka can beat pakistan now in test format.

? pakistan beat Sri Lanka just recently?
yes they are poor vs bounce. That means they will only struggle vs australia and south africa. However vs other teams they can still win vs most other teams. In fact at home they would beat all SENA nations.

shaheen naseem and abbas at home is a good combo. Finally pakistan found the right bowling trio.

 

[murakh1]

On any given day we can complete with current SA & Eng team with abid ali, babar, fawad Alam, haris rauf, nasheem, Shaheen.Also PCB should consider salman butt in playing eleven.

 

[Hawkeye]

New Zealand and England are better than Pakistan because they are capable of beating the bigger teams. Pakistan has hardly any chance against Australia and India in most conditions.


Pakistan have lost to Sri Lanka and New Zealand at home. Beaten black and blue in South Africa and Australia. Also we lost easily the last time we played in in NZ.

We are a poor test team.

Height of self-loathing and wrist-slitting.

We're not the same team that Mickey Arthur used to play in Tests. That dark era is over, thankfully.

We're quite a strong force in Tests now and will become even better. No way AUS will beat us anywhere except AUS. We'll beat SL everywhere. NZ can also be beaten at home - we're as good as NZ.

 

[Mesozoic]

Rory Burns is massively mediocre - he is a Poor Man’s Shan Masood.

Stopped reading right here.

Cheers.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Height of self-loathing and wrist-slitting.

We're not the same team that Mickey Arthur used to play in Tests. That dark era is over, thankfully.

We're quite a strong force in Tests now and will become even better. No way AUS will beat us anywhere except AUS. We'll beat SL everywhere. NZ can also be beaten at home - we're as good as NZ.

this is correct. 100% pakistam would deliver a proper phainta to Aussies if they play pakistan now in pakistan. overrated peasants. They need to be brought back down to earth. Hope they tour pakistan soon.

nz away is difficult though bro. conditions favour n.z but draw is possible away. maybe if pakistan win the tosses.

 

[Hawkeye]

this is correct. 100% pakistam would deliver a proper phainta to Aussies if they play pakistan now in pakistan. overrated peasants. They need to be brought back down to earth. Hope they tour pakistan soon.

nz away is difficult though bro. conditions favour n.z but draw is possible away. maybe if pakistan win the tosses.

Yeah, beating NZ is very unlikely away. I meant beating them at our home is certainly possible.

 

[Junaids]

Rory Burns and Sam Curran are talentless but Shadab khan is a "high class" int'l Test talent.

Got to laugh at the delusions over here.

Rory Burns is massively mediocre - he is a Poor Man’s Shan Masood.
.

Stopped reading right here.

Cheers.

You have made a mistake.

Rory Burns is no talented youngster: he’s 29 years old and after 15 Tests has 979 runs at 33.75.

Shan Masood is 10 months older and after 17 Tests has 1089 runs at 29.43.

But over the last two years while Burns averages 33.75, Masood averages 40.30.

You just can’t argue that Burns is some superb young prospect. He’s just the English Shan Masood. Only not quite as good.

 

[Manunited18]

this is correct. 100% pakistam would deliver a proper phainta to Aussies if they play pakistan now in pakistan. overrated peasants. They need to be brought back down to earth. Hope they tour pakistan soon.

nz away is difficult though bro. conditions favour n.z but draw is possible away. maybe if pakistan win the tosses.

Lol you don't rate Australia, but I can understand, even when Australia had a champion team they struggled in india

 

[Titan24]

this is correct. 100% pakistam would deliver a proper phainta to Aussies if they play pakistan now in pakistan. overrated peasants. They need to be brought back down to earth. Hope they tour pakistan soon.

nz away is difficult though bro. conditions favour n.z but draw is possible away. maybe if pakistan win the tosses.

If spin friendly wickets are made, barring exceptions it would likely be Pak domination vs Aus just like the last two series in UAE vs them.

If wickets are like the ones against Srl then it will be competitive as Aussie pacers have much much more experience in comparison to Pak counter parts but still it wont be easy for the Aussies as the style of bowling required on comparatively low bounce surfaces in comparison to Aus and batting as well would be comfortable for Pak.

Watching Babar bat vs Cummins and Pattinson in Pak would be a mouth watering prospect. Babar has played two matches in Pak and has scored two 100s not out so home makes a big difference just like for everyone. Also playing Naseem and Shaeen in Pak would be completely different for the likes of Warner and Labu.

Though considering the attitude cricketing world I am not sure which teams will tour in coming year or so and which will create theatrics or forfeit the series.

 

[Hasan123]

that was a pakistan team in transition. I don't think n.z or Lanka can beat pakistan now in test format.

? pakistan beat Sri Lanka just recently?
yes they are poor vs bounce. That means they will only struggle vs australia and south africa. However vs other teams they can still win vs most other teams. In fact at home they would beat all SENA nations.

shaheen naseem and abbas at home is a good combo. Finally pakistan found the right bowling trio.

Sri Lanka beat us in UAE.

Other than Shaheen and Babar what elite players are there ? Even if it's a team in transition I don't see us becoming a top 3 test team right now.

 

[Hasan123]

Height of self-loathing and wrist-slitting.

We're not the same team that Mickey Arthur used to play in Tests. That dark era is over, thankfully.

We're quite a strong force in Tests now and will become even better. No way AUS will beat us anywhere except AUS. We'll beat SL everywhere. NZ can also be beaten at home - we're as good as NZ.

Because my opinion isn't the same as your doesn't mean it is wrist slitting.

This Pakistan team is not a top 3 test team. We have beat Sri Lanka and now we are a strong force LOL?

Australia would beat us in South Africa, England, and NZ.

New Zealand beat weak teams at home, we drop games against weak teams. New Zealand beat us home and away as well.

 

[Titan24]

Sri Lanka beat us in UAE.

Other than Shaheen and Babar what elite players are there ? Even if it's a team in transition I don't see us becoming a top 3 test team right now.

Other than Srl and Nz loss we havent lost a home series in tests in last 8-9 years. Younus and Misbah‘s absence who averaged 50+ and 45+ was gonna take some time to overcome. Now we are seeing Babar developing.

 

[tyron_woodley]

You have made a mistake.

Rory Burns is no talented youngster: he’s 29 years old and after 15 Tests has 979 runs at 33.75.

Shan Masood is 10 months older and after 17 Tests has 1089 runs at 29.43.

But over the last two years while Burns averages 33.75, Masood averages 40.30.

You just can’t argue that Burns is some superb young prospect. He’s just the English Shan Masood. Only not quite as good.

I understand your point of view but labuschagne averaged 37 in shield cricket. He just started ofcourse but he did make improvements. I am sure his average will drop eventually but maybe burns has improved post first class cricket?

 

[tyron_woodley]

If spin friendly wickets are made, barring exceptions it would likely be Pak domination vs Aus just like the last two series in UAE vs them.

If wickets are like the ones against Srl then it will be competitive as Aussie pacers have much much more experience in comparison to Pak counter parts but still it wont be easy for the Aussies as the style of bowling required on comparatively low bounce surfaces in comparison to Aus and batting as well would be comfortable for Pak.

Watching Babar bat vs Cummins and Pattinson in Pak would be a mouth watering prospect. Babar has played two matches in Pak and has scored two 100s not out so home makes a big difference just like for everyone. Also playing Naseem and Shaeen in Pak would be completely different for the likes of Warner and Labu.

Though considering the attitude cricketing world I am not sure which teams will tour in coming year or so and which will create theatrics or forfeit the series.

aussies wont do anything vspakistam in pakistan on rank turners. yasir alone will take them.
on flat low bouncy wickets, pakistan will rip them to shreds albeit in a more competitive series. Aussies can't reverse swing unless they cheat anyway. Just have to watch out for them trying to tamper the ball. That's all. Your main threat would be them attempting to cheat. otherwise pakistam would obliterate australia in pakistan.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Sri Lanka beat us in UAE.

Other than Shaheen and Babar what elite players are there ? Even if it's a team in transition I don't see us becoming a top 3 test team right now.

playing in pakistam is not the same as playing in u.a.e
pakistam is a totally different beast playing in pakistan.

They play domestic competitions in pakistan not in u.a.e lol. So the players will be far more familiar with the conditions in pakistan. They will be a force to reckon with.

 

[ads101]

Pakistan could get 3. Is possible. I think there's only truly two strong test teams, the rest aren't that good. I don't think we're that much worse than say the 3rd best team.

Though yes we are currently 6th/7th in terms of strength.

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

I started this thread, and I can assure you the question was not “who are the third best team today?”

The question is more complex: it is

“Test teams go up and down according to the current crop of players. Overall, across the next decade, where do you think Pakistan belongs?”

I would argue the following:

1. New Zealand and South Africa have ageing teams with an inferior next generation.

2. For England, Stokes, Archer and Root are the only international class players aged under 30, and the younger players are essentially talentless.

3. Compared with England, New Zealand and South Africa, Pakistan’s emerging Test talent aged 25 and under (Shaheen Shah Afridi, Naseem Shah, Babar Azam, Shadab Khan) are in a much higher class.

You can laugh at me including Shadab Khan. Then ask yourself whether Santner, Bess and Maharaj are really better as batsmen or bowlers!

I think you're being harsh on ENG.

They have very good players in the upcoming batch. The Curran brothers, Tom Banton, Ben Foakes, Phil Salt, Liam Livingstone to name a few.

However, I do agree that Pakistan's is better skills-wise. They're just short on experience.

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

Because my opinion isn't the same as your doesn't mean it is wrist slitting.

This Pakistan team is not a top 3 test team. We have beat Sri Lanka and now we are a strong force LOL?

Australia would beat us in South Africa, England, and NZ.

New Zealand beat weak teams at home, we drop games against weak teams. New Zealand beat us home and away as well.

Similarly, we'd beat them in PAK, UAE, IND, BANG and WI.

What's your point? Playing well on rank turners and slow pitches is as admirable as being able to play on fast, bouncy pitches.

Again, not playing at home is a HUGE disadvantage which we won't suffer from now onwards.

 

[barah_admi]

Similarly, we'd beat them in PAK, UAE, IND, BANG and WI.

What's your point? Playing well on rank turners and slow pitches is as admirable as being able to play on fast, bouncy pitches.

Again, not playing at home is a HUGE disadvantage which we won't suffer from now onwards.

I agree, playing in Pak should help a huge amount for the development of the current and young test side.

The bigger issue is keeping these guys fit, focused and captaining them well. Pakistan need to draw in England and win their remaining test series.