Where does Pakistan's Test bowling go from here?

[Firebat]

Pakistan's 4 main bowlers this series:

Yasir: 11/368, Avg 33.5

Abbas: 5/179, Avg 35.8

Shaheen: 5/258, Avg 51.6

Naseem: 3/208, Avg 69.3

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Obviously this was a very poor performance by our bowlers this series. Started off well bowling England out for 219 in the first innings of the first Test, but went downhill from there.

Top order wickets were never an issue, but we were never able to capitalise on those positions and let many of them slip, costing us dearly.

We let 117/5 slip to 277/7, and let 127/4 slip to 538/8, costing a win in the 1st Test and ruling out any chance of a win in the 3rd.

Why did our bowlers struggle so much this series, doing far worse than we did 2 years ago? We will almost certainly tour NZ in the winter. What changes need to be made for that series? Who should be dropped? Who should come in? Or is it just a matter of persisting with this attack and letting more experience bring better performances?

 

[the Great Khan]

what were their averages before the first innings of the 3rd test match?

we should continue with them and at the same time look for more talent. We also have to give credit to england too..they played very well and have a really good team.

 

[PakPremi]

Over reliance on youngsters. You need couple of well experienced bowlers. It appears no lessons were learnt from Australia series.

 

[Ab Fan]

Need to back them. The problem is there is no experienced bowler between age 20-30 that Pakistan has.

If Pak had that, they could have rotated Shaheen and Naseem and eventually when both became experienced enough, both could be played together. As of now, bowling is as much a problem as batting for Pakistan.

 

[coy0607]

No worries, we have a series against Zimbabwe coming up. Stats will look a lot better shortly

 

[Markhor]

Need an injection of experience in the seam attack. No, not 36 year old Sohail Khan or 33 year old Imran Khan - but someone between 22-30 with more FC exposure.

 

[MenInG]

Think Pakistan need an all-rounder - fast-bowling one asap.

The rest of the bowlers can possibly remain the same as on this series - maybe a few chances to the likes of Sameen Gul and Ehsan Adil?

 

[zarak]

you need five bowlers unless you are playing two spinners. I dont think our bowlers were bad but I am not sure if we can play overseas with three pacers and one spinner. We need four placers and two of them should not be duds with the bat. Shaheen, Nasim, Abbas, and maybe hasan ali. We should look to replace yasir with a finger spinner who can give us control and make the team as a number 7 bat

 

[aloo paratha]

Stick with them. They're the best we've got.

 

[Mamoon]

Naseem and Abbas need to dropped for good.

 

[Ami]

No issues with bowling...besides we're only gonna play 5 to 10 tests a year...so no big deal.

As for someone who mentioned experience/seniors?..you mean Amir, Wahab and Hasan Ali?

 

[HappyWarsFan]

Drop Naseem. Put Ehsan Adil in his place.

Bring in Aamer Yamin as an all rounder.to lighten their work load.

Zafar Gohar to compete or play with Yasir depending on conditions.

 

[sweep_shot]

I think Naseem should play more FC. He needs more experience.

Shaheen is fine. Abbas is fine.

Yasir is fine but it is probably better to groom another young spinner.

 

[Abdullah]

No issue with the 3 quicks,just need a 4th quick on the dead wickets.

 

[HappyWarsFan]

I am so tired of everyone claiming that Naseem is the best we've got

No he isn't. There are other experienced pacers aged 21-29 who have done similarly well as him in first class, over a longer time period. Most obvious examples are Sameen Gul and Ehsan Adil.

 

[Kroll]

Shows what a terrible investment Amir was. Dude cost us after 2010 and now done the same.

 

[Kenpachi]

Drop Naseem.

Abbas is no good on a flat wicket, but on a day 4 or 5 bowling track could be deadly.

Shaheen's inexperience showed with the old ball this series.

We can't continue with both Shaheen and Naseem.

I agree with [MENTION=93712]MenInG[/MENTION] we need some pace bowling all rounders, similar to the roles played by Razzaq or Azhar Mahmood.

Provide some lower order batting stability as well as partnership breaking balls.

 

[Xoib]

I know figures look awful due to this test but to be honest barring a 5 over spell by Anderson late on day 2 when we were batting after conceding 600 none of the bowlers either side looked like taking a wicket it's difficult to judge inexperienced seamers on this patta.

 

[Markhor]

No issues with bowling...besides we're only gonna play 5 to 10 tests a year...so no big deal.

As for someone who mentioned experience/seniors?..you mean Amir, Wahab and Hasan Ali?

Like Amir, Wahab and Hasan are the only experienced seamers in Pakistan.

Sameen Gul and Ehsan Adil took wickets with the red Kookaburra on dead wickets in the QEA Trophy last season. So it's a false choice that either we play teenagers or hasbeens.

There's a reason why no other Test side plays two or more seamers aged 20 and under. Test cricket is not a bloody academy. You do your learning in domestic cricket first.

 

[Thephenom]

How dare these youngster not take 30 wickets each this series, let’s dump them and find some other young bowlers we can criticise, if you dont give youngsters a chance how the hell are they going to learn? They need to be coached and advised!

 

[Mamoon]

Let’s be honest. Pakistan has one of the worse bowling attacks in the world and the whole “they are inexperienced” is a load of nonsense.

Experience is not a factor here because there is a genuine lack of ability as well.

 

[shady]

They bowled better than their figures showed. The only dull periods they had was that crucial session in the first test and then when Crawley and Buttler got settled in the last test. Naseem in particular bowled some really good spells mixed in with some bad stuff thats a product of inexperience. We need to persist with Shaheen and Naseem and those worried about their experience need to ask themselves what readymade experienced fast bowlers we have that can replace them. It's rare to have two highly promising young fast bowling talents appearing around the same time, we can't be impatient with them. Also I think Naseem only got a couple wickets this series but I've watched each one multiple times already because of how great they are, unplayable bowling.

 

[Bigboii]

Shows what a terrible investment Amir was. Dude cost us after 2010 and now done the same.

Proper 15 inch Chura that Amir guy

 

[Bigboii]

They bowled better than their figures showed. The only dull periods they had was that crucial session in the first test and then when Crawley and Buttler got settled in the last test. Naseem in particular bowled some really good spells mixed in with some bad stuff thats a product of inexperience. We need to persist with Shaheen and Naseem and those worried about their experience need to ask themselves what readymade experienced fast bowlers we have that can replace them. It's rare to have two highly promising young fast bowling talents appearing around the same time, we can't be impatient with them. Also I think Naseem only got a couple wickets this series but I've watched each one multiple times already because of how great they are, unplayable bowling.

Naseem can get that experience in first class I don't think pakistan can afford him right know

Cause we'll have two inexperienced fast bowlers

 

[Shazzam]

Naseem and Abbas need to dropped for good.

This^

 

[Buffet]

Last 4 years:





The next 4 years , Pakistan should try to be in the top 3-4.

I don't recall seeing Pakistan's bowling unit averaging outside of top 6 for any rolling 4 years of period.

 

[shady]

Let’s be honest. Pakistan has one of the worse bowling attacks in the world and the whole “they are inexperienced” is a load of nonsense.

Experience is not a factor here because there is a genuine lack of ability as well.

Clueless as usual. I would say former test cricketers are decent judges of ability, and they've all been raving about Naseem and Shaheen all tour. They're by definition inexperienced by virtue of not having played many tests. Any one who actually watched the tests could visibly see them losing their lines and lengths in moments of frustation which is a product of inexperience. Body language, field setting, bowling to a plan also all come with experience. They clearly have the tools/ability to succeed even if, unsurprisingly, you can't see them.

 

[Mamoon]

Clueless as usual. I would say former test cricketers are decent judges of ability, and they've all been raving about Naseem and Shaheen all tour. They're by definition inexperienced by virtue of not having played many tests. Any one who actually watched the tests could visibly see them losing their lines and lengths in moments of frustation which is a product of inexperience. Body language, field setting, bowling to a plan also all come with experience. They clearly have the tools/ability to succeed even if, unsurprisingly, you can't see them.

Shaheen is very good and can become a top bowler with some guidance.

Naseem is an ordinary bowler. Basically Mohammad Talha 2.0. The only reason he is hyped is because PCB have lied about his age.

He is 19-20 and not 17, and he is nothing special. Pakistani fans will realize it eventually but like always, they will do it the hard, painful way.

We keep hyping mediocre players and then we act surprised and look for scapegoats and punching bags when they don’t deliver.

 

[shady]

Naseem can get that experience in first class I don't think pakistan can afford him right know

Cause we'll have two inexperienced fast bowlers

I'd agree with you if we had a side that was ready to compete with the best in the world but we don't. We have a rebuilding squad that needs to be developed with an eye to the future. Theres also not really anyone that would be an obvious choice to replace Naseem (ideally it would be Amir) so I think we should just be patient. If he's still struggling after another 4-5 tests than sure sit him for a couple games.

 

[Maliq_Mudasir]

Naseem and Abbas need to dropped for good.

Too harsh for someone who has just started his career. Coaches can work with him to rectify the mistakes he does on the field.

 

[Kenpachi]

I'd agree with you if we had a side that was ready to compete with the best in the world but we don't. We have a rebuilding squad that needs to be developed with an eye to the future. Theres also not really anyone that would be an obvious choice to replace Naseem (ideally it would be Amir) so I think we should just be patient. If he's still struggling after another 4-5 tests than sure sit him for a couple games.

Ah yes the good old "rebuilding" excuse. Been overused since the turn of the millenium.

 

[shady]

Shaheen is very good and can become a top bowler with some guidance.

Naseem is an ordinary bowler. Basically Mohammad Talha 2.0. The only reason he is hyped is because PCB have lied about his age.

He is 19-20 and not 17, and he is nothing special. Pakistani fans will realize it eventually but like always, they will do it the hard, painful way.

We keep hyping mediocre players and then we act surprised and look for scapegoats and punching bags when they don’t deliver.

You keep saying ordinary, what exactly is ordinary about him? He's already among the quickest bowlers in the world. He's shown he gets more bounce than someone of his height should. He's shown some adeptness already at swinging the ball away from right handers that can be further honed. A couple of his deliveries seamed so viciously that you could even see the English batsmen surprised. Both wickets he got this summer were high quality wickets off of literally unplayable deliveries. He already has a test five for and a hattrick. Also, I don't know why you think him being 19/20 is actually some sort of mark against him,
what he's shown so far is advanced even for 19/20. Again what about him is mediocre?

 

[Mamoon]

You keep saying ordinary, what exactly is ordinary about him? He's already among the quickest bowlers in the world already. He's shown he gets more bounce than someone of his height should. He's shown some adeptness already at swinging the ball away from right handers that can be further honed. A couple of his deliveries seamed so viciously that you could even see the English batsmen surprised. Both wickets he got this summer were high quality wickets off of literally unplayable deliveries. He already has a test five for and a hattrick. Also, I don't know why you think him being 19/20 is actually some sort of mark against him,
what he's shown so far is advanced even for 19/20. Again what about him is mediocre?

Maybe you were watching a different bowler than. What I saw was a poorly calibrated bowling machine who kept bowling with no thought process and failed with flying colors in both Australia and England.

He is also naturally handicapped because of his height. As a result, he will never be able to use his pace effectively.

He is also arrogant and not as good as he thinks he is. Statements like “I like to see fear in batsmen’s eyes” and “if England batsmen underestimate me it will be their loss” do not look good when you return with 3 wickets in 3 Tests and a bowling average of 70.

He is a talker who has not showed the ability to deliver against quality sides.

Yes yes I know he is young and will be lifting mountains and uprooting trees in a few years.

 

[Saj]

I suppose the alternatives aren't very good so you have to stick with these 3 for now.

Imran Khan, Sohail Khan, Rahat Ali are hardly world-beaters.

 

[shady]

Maybe you were watching a different bowler than. What I saw was a poorly calibrated bowling machine who kept bowling with no thought process and failed with flying colors in both Australia and England.

He is also naturally handicapped because of his height. As a result, he will never be able to use his pace effectively.

He is also arrogant and not as good as he thinks he is. Statements like “I like to see fear in batsmen’s eyes” and “if England batsmen underestimate me it will be their loss” do not look good when you return with 3 wickets in 3 Tests and a bowling average of 70.

He is a talker who has not showed the ability to deliver against quality sides.

Yes yes I know he is young and will be lifting mountains and uprooting trees in a few years.

Your comment on his height has been disproven by plenty of fast bowlers through history so I don't need to address that. As far as those statements, they're completely normal for any young athlete. The best athletes in the world all have the belief that they're the best at what they do, even if it's mostly bravado when they're young and inexperienced. It's much better to have a young athlete with supreme confidence in himself rather than someone unsure of his abilities. Cricket is pretty backwards in that any sort of bravado is seen as disrespectful/unbecoming, even though sports and bravado often go hand in hand. Also, your answer to how is Naseem mediocre basically boils down to he's not tall enough and I think he talks too arrogantly which is a pretty weak answer.

 

[Hasan123]

Sameen Gul should definitely be tried . Need to try some bowlers between the age of 22-28. Imran Khan and Sohail Khan are past their best. The reason Naseem couldn't be rested was because the 2 replacements were too old and had no fitness.

 

[Kaka4pope]

I suppose the alternatives aren't very good so you have to stick with these 3 for now.

Imran Khan, Sohail Khan, Rahat Ali are hardly world-beaters.

It’s Amir and Hassan Ali who we really need back - good, cultured bowlers, swing and seam the ball. Decent batsmen at 9/10 also. Shaheen at first change.

 

[Kaka4pope]

Shaheen is very good and can become a top bowler with some guidance.

Naseem is an ordinary bowler. Basically Mohammad Talha 2.0. The only reason he is hyped is because PCB have lied about his age.

He is 19-20 and not 17, and he is nothing special. Pakistani fans will realize it eventually but like always, they will do it the hard, painful way.

We keep hyping mediocre players and then we act surprised and look for scapegoats and punching bags when they don’t deliver.

Naseem aside, was a bit disappointed by Shaheen, expected him to carry a greater threat to right handers, with new ball especially.

 

[FreePalestine]

I suppose the alternatives aren't very good so you have to stick with these 3 for now.

Imran Khan, Sohail Khan, Rahat Ali are hardly world-beaters.

Usman Khan Shinwari.

Also not for Saj, but many pessimistic comments on here are pretty silly. They are young bowlers. OP has picked a good question. Valid question. I think they are good bowlers:

Abbas is pretty sharp.

Shaheen has learnt a new skill, being able to swing in more. He needs to work on his match awareness. He also didn’t seem to try to take wickets with pace and bounce as he used to do before all this inswing obsession. He definitely needs both skills and be able to challenge both edges of the bat.

Naseem is very inexperienced. No judgement on him yet. Shows very good promise. Why reject him so prematurely? Having said that, can definitely get behind the idea of sending him on ‘A’ tours and domestic cricket to mature.

I don’t mind playing Shinwari and Shaheen together in the same team. Ehsan Adil also looked really good in this domestic season. I don’t know what Waqar has against him. He wasn’t even in the bigger squads that have been picked for various series. Odd.

 

[PakHammer]

Shinwari should be putting pressure on Naseem as he does need a bit of first class experience. If Hassan Ali can come back from injury and hit some form, he would my replacement for Abbas.

Our tail of Shaheen, Abbas and Naseem was an embarrassment to international cricket. When a team is not strong on batting, you need a tail who can wag. Hassan Ali and Faheem Ashraf can bat so they should be looking to get into the test team in SENA.

 

[shamaan]

Shinwari should be putting pressure on Naseem as he does need a bit of first class experience. If Hassan Ali can come back from injury and hit some form, he would my replacement for Abbas.

Our tail of Shaheen, Abbas and Naseem was an embarrassment to international cricket. When a team is not strong on batting, you need a tail who can wag. Hassan Ali and Faheem Ashraf can bat so they should be looking to get into the test team in SENA.

That's were the series was won the lower order hassan ali should replace abbas and naseem should open the bowling with fahim being another option

 

[Minnowbasher]

People are being overly harsh here.
Naseem and Shaheen are young and will learn from this experience.
Abbas did his job - get wickets at the top and contain in the middle overs when ball not doing too much. This is his role in the team.
Yasir is the only one who deserves an axing. Has been consistenly poor - as a spinner your job is to support the fast bowlers by taking wickets or at the very least contain when the wicket is dead. Yasir did neither and looks a club level bowler when he is attacked. Time to move on from him imo.

Also, lack of creative thinking captaincy has cost the bowlers as Azhar has no creativity when it comes to fields, tactics etc.

 

[Titan24]

Firstly PCB should make sure Naseem and Shaheen play majority of the FC matches this season.

Secondly pacers who are in their 20s as well as experienced need to added to the setup for much needed balance rather than Imran Khan snr and Sohail Khan.

As mentioned in another thread there are quite a few options, they might not be world beaters but enough to work with and with possibility of developing into something good. Ehsan Adil, Sameen Gul, Zia Ul Haq, Ahmed Bashir, Usman Shinwari, Mir Hamza, Amad Butt (Can bat as well) and Ali Shafiq to mention few decent options. If Hassan Ali gets fit and finds some form then he automatically comes in as well.

In the meanwhile young pacers like Arshad Iqbal, Mohammad Hasnain, Akif Javed, Mohammad Musa, Aamir Khan, Abbas Afridi, Tahir Hussain etc should be groomed and developed as well at 2nd XI or 1st XI based upon their growth stage.

 

[zamana]

Let’s be honest. Pakistan has one of the worse bowling attacks in the world and the whole “they are inexperienced” is a load of nonsense.

Experience is not a factor here because there is a genuine lack of ability as well.

The bowling attack is very talented but obviously inexperienced. Your comments are unwarranted and unjustified. Your expectations are unrealistic and your criticism is pathologic. Grow up!

 

[shamaan]

Firstly PCB should make sure Naseem and Shaheen play majority of the FC matches this season.

Secondly pacers who are in their 20s as well as experienced need to added to the setup for much needed balance rather than Imran Khan snr and Sohail Khan.

As mentioned in another thread there are quite a few options, they might not be world beaters but enough to work with and with possibility of developing into something good. Ehsan Adil, Sameen Gul, Zia Ul Haq, Ahmed Bashir, Usman Shinwari, Mir Hamza, Amad Butt (Can bat as well) and Ali Shafiq to mention few decent options. If Hassan Ali gets fit and finds some form then he automatically comes in as well.

In the meanwhile young pacers like Arshad Iqbal, Mohammad Hasnain, Akif Javed, Mohammad Musa, Aamir Khan, Abbas Afridi, Tahir Hussain etc should be groomed and developed as well at 2nd XI or 1st XI based upon their growth stage.

Ehsan adil sameen gull are good options but who is zia Ul haq and ahmed Bashir what are thier strengths

 

[castortroy]

Naseem needs to be dropped and to play more FC cricket.

Playing him in every test was brainless by the management.

He definitely didn't justify the hype

Abbas is pony on flat decks and SSA is another that seems to be getting too big for his boots like a certain hassan ali

 

[shamaan]

Naseem needs to be dropped and to play more FC cricket.

Playing him in every test was brainless by the management.

He definitely didn't justify the hype

Abbas is pony on flat decks and SSA is another that seems to be getting too big for his boots like a certain hassan ali

Give them time they will develop archer also struggled and hes more experienced I belive

 

[Kroll]

I'm sure Misbah will bring back Muhammad 'Mighty' Musa for the NZ tests.

So no need to fret.

 

[watson367]

Hassan Ali did much better on his tour to England, than these "talented" world beaters.

 

[Titan24]

Ehsan adil sameen gull are good options but who is zia Ul haq and ahmed Bashir what are thier strengths

Zia ul Haq who is currently 25 was a teenage prodigy and in national T20 cup almost 8-9 years ago when he was around 17 he played for Lahore Lions, that is when I first saw him on TV. He was constantly bowling around 145 kph in that spell and took a fifer and man of the match. He swung the ball in the air and seamed it off the surface as well. I think he successfully represented Pakistan at U19 level as well but, after that he has been bit under the radar but has done reasonably well at FC level with 203 wickets at an average of 26. This average might not be an earth shattering one considering the stats of Pak domestic bowlers but he has the skills and now experience as well to be developed into a decent prospect at international level. His height is also decent, around 6+ as per my understanding backed by a pretty smooth action.

Ahmed Bashir bowls around 140-145 kph, gets natural zip from the surface. He has got 112 wickets at an average of 20 in FC cricket. Has a pretty decent action as well and he is 24 years old.

 

[TeamPak95]

At the very least, there needs to be a fifth bowler so that the attack overall don’t feel fatigued when either of them come on to bowl being well rested. Faheem Ashraf, on paper in terms of being an all rounder, should have been that ideal bowler but his batting is horrendous so being in the team for his bowling specifically would be a bit much. Apart from him, I’m curious to see how Pakistan will decide on their fifth bowler.

 

[Savak]

At the very least, there needs to be a fifth bowler so that the attack overall don’t feel fatigued when either of them come on to bowl being well rested. Faheem Ashraf, on paper in terms of being an all rounder, should have been that ideal bowler but his batting is horrendous so being in the team for his bowling specifically would be a bit much. Apart from him, I’m curious to see how Pakistan will decide on their fifth bowler.

Faheem Ashraf is prone to brain fades with the bat but he should have been played in place of Fawad Alam in the series to give balance to the side

 

[Sher Khan]

Naseem and Abbas need to dropped for good.

What has abbas even done wrong? Guy averages 20 with the ball after 20 tests. He is our vernon philander controlling the run rate, suffocating the batsmen with his nagging line and length and taking key wickets like Ben stokes in the first test with a beauty.

 

[Savak]

What has abbas even done wrong? Guy averages 20 with the ball after 20 tests. He is our vernon philander controlling the run rate, suffocating the batsmen with his nagging line and length and taking key wickets like Ben stokes in the first test with a beauty.

His ineffectiveness with the old ball hurt us badly, his job is to take wickets as well and not just be a Zulfiqar Babar

 

[Mamoon]

People who are now defending and justifying Naseem’s awful returns and resorting to excuses and finding other people to blame, are the same people who were doing bhangra before the series and telling everyone how he was going to blow England away.

If these people were told that Naseem would take 3 wickets in 3 Tests at an average of 70, they would have laughed it off and claimed that a humble pie awaits them.

So regardless of their denial, deep down, they are fully aware of the fact that Naseem performed well below what they expected.

 

[Mamoon]

The bowling attack is very talented but obviously inexperienced. Your comments are unwarranted and unjustified. Your expectations are unrealistic and your criticism is pathologic. Grow up!

They were not inexperienced when people were predicting them to blow England’s fragile top-order away before the series.

But now that they have failed to live up to the exalted expectations, they have suddenly become inexperienced.

 

[Mamoon]

What has abbas even done wrong? Guy averages 20 with the ball after 20 tests. He is our vernon philander controlling the run rate, suffocating the batsmen with his nagging line and length and taking key wickets like Ben stokes in the first test with a beauty.

Abbas was shocking in South Africa and Australia and New Zealand negated him in the UAE after he took Australia by surprise.

I think he is no longer effective against the top teams because he is a one trick pony. I would pick him only for England and we are not playing Tests in England again for quite some time, and I don’t think he has the mileage left.

 

[zain7077]

Abbas was shocking in South Africa and Australia and New Zealand negated him in the UAE after he took Australia by surprise.

I think he is no longer effective against the top teams because he is a one trick pony. I would pick him only for England and we are not playing Tests in England again for quite some time, and I don’t think he has the mileage left.

I think he will be very handy for the green tops in NZ.

 

[MenInG]

Abbas needs a better bowler to support him.

He can easily shut down one end when not taking wickets but he will not run through lineups by himself.

Rest is fine.

Naseem and Shaheen are the future of Pak cricket and will continue to improve. Just need proper guidance.

 

[Pacy with wisdom]

Shaheen is very good and can become a top bowler with some guidance.

Naseem is an ordinary bowler. Basically Mohammad Talha 2.0. The only reason he is hyped is because PCB have lied about his age.

He is 19-20 and not 17, and he is nothing special. Pakistani fans will realize it eventually but like always, they will do it the hard, painful way.

We keep hyping mediocre players and then we act surprised and look for scapegoats and punching bags when they don’t deliver.

Talha and Naseem are totally different types of athletes, with different actions, and strengths/weaknesses.
Height is Naseem's only downside. He doesn't know the art of taking test wickets at the moment, which is understandable given his age and level of first class experience and has a few technical faults which can very easily be adressed by someone who isn't named 'Waqar Younis'.
Aside from that, he has all the ingredients to be a fantastic bowler.
You need to stop talking about fast bowling. You have got zero knowledge on this art. You weren't a fast bowler yourself, at any level and you have not studied the art either.
Talk about Haider Ali, or any other young batsman, and while your comments will still be negative and pessimistic, it will atleast have some substance and knowledge to back it up.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

Some thoughts that I’ve been collecting regarding the pace attack:

- Persist with Shaheen, Naseem, and Abbas. It is important to back the youngsters, who though haven’t had the best series show some serious long-term potential.

- Include 2 young pacers in their low 20s into the future Pakistan 16-man Test squad for rotationary purposes; primary candidates are Usman Khan Shinwari and Sameen Gul. When possible, give them exposure in domestic as well as A team tours for maximum development.

- Identify a core group of 4-5 upcoming pacers such as Akif Javed, Mohammad Hasnain, and Zia ul Haq, who are more raw and less developed in first class cricket. Give them an extended leash in their first XIs playing all matches for their regions.

- Identify then develop a core set of 3-4 all-rounders: a spin all-rounder in Shadab, and pace all-rounders in Hasan Ali and Faheem Ashraf.

- Identify and develop a young strike spinner to replace Yasir Shah. Based on past performances, the most obvious candidate Is Zafar Gohar. Include him in the squad, and simultaneously develop the likes of Sajid Khan, Umer Khan, and even Usama Mir with long spells in domestic cricket.

- Utilize the new NHPC system effectively, extracting the best out of Muhammad Zahid and Mushtaq Ahmed to work directly with the aforementioned core groups throughout the year so they are developing new skills even at the same levels of cricket, before they ever graduate to the international circuit.

- Set up High Performance Centers in Sindh, KPK, and South Punjab, with facilities such as ball trackers, bowling machines, and decently well trained bowling coaches (who should be trained via regimens and bowling-specific coaching certifications offered at the NHPC.

- Hire a good data team. Even 3-5 analysts will do, but they must match the quality of CricViz as hired by the ECB. What is important is identifying the weakpoints of opposition batsmen (such as the short ball to Woakes) as well as analysis on a domestic cricket bowler beyond just average, strike rate, and economy - statistics in higher resolution such as average wicket-taking ability of each ball bowled, difference in average by conditions, and quality of opposition wickets taken, all to be presented to the selection committee.

While you can’t control for who you get from age group cricket, you can control for the system and how those individuals that do come through are developed. With an effective development strategy in place, you can maximize the potential out of even limited talent pools. Pakistan has the potential to be much better than it currently is - all that is needed is a gentle push by the right hands, and in the right direction.

 

[MenInG]

Some thoughts that I’ve been collecting regarding the pace attack:

- Persist with Shaheen, Naseem, and Abbas. It is important to back the youngsters, who though haven’t had the best series show some serious long-term potential.

- Include 2 young pacers in their low 20s into the future Pakistan 16-man Test squad for rotationary purposes; primary candidates are Usman Khan Shinwari and Sameen Gul. When possible, give them exposure in domestic as well as A team tours for maximum development.

- Identify a core group of 4-5 upcoming pacers such as Akif Javed, Mohammad Hasnain, and Zia ul Haq, who are more raw and less developed in first class cricket. Give them an extended leash in their first XIs playing all matches for their regions.

- Identify then develop a core set of 3-4 all-rounders: a spin all-rounder in Shadab, and pace all-rounders in Hasan Ali and Faheem Ashraf.

- Identify and develop a young strike spinner to replace Yasir Shah. Based on past performances, the most obvious candidate Is Zafar Gohar. Include him in the squad, and simultaneously develop the likes of Sajid Khan, Umer Khan, and even Usama Mir with long spells in domestic cricket.

- Utilize the new NHPC system effectively, extracting the best out of Muhammad Zahid and Mushtaq Ahmed to work directly with the aforementioned core groups throughout the year so they are developing new skills even at the same levels of cricket, before they ever graduate to the international circuit.

- Set up High Performance Centers in Sindh, KPK, and South Punjab, with facilities such as ball trackers, bowling machines, and decently well trained bowling coaches (who should be trained via regimens and bowling-specific coaching certifications offered at the NHPC.

- Hire a good data team. Even 3-5 analysts will do, but they must match the quality of CricViz as hired by the ECB. What is important is identifying the weakpoints of opposition batsmen (such as the short ball to Woakes) as well as analysis on a domestic cricket bowler beyond just average, strike rate, and economy - statistics in higher resolution such as average wicket-taking ability of each ball bowled, difference in average by conditions, and quality of opposition wickets taken, all to be presented to the selection committee.

While you can’t control for who you get from age group cricket, you can control for the system and how those individuals that do come through are developed. With an effective development strategy in place, you can maximize the potential out of even limited talent pools. Pakistan has the potential to be much better than it currently is - all that is needed is a gentle push by the right hands, and in the right direction.

I am surprised we dont have that already in place!

But that is crucial.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

I am surprised we dont have that already in place!

But that is crucial.

I’m sure you already do, but if not I would highly encourage you and any other posters here to check out the “CricViz Analyst” Twitter account and look at their statistical analyses. Imagine a data team like this working with the PCB!

For example, even a bowler who is not so smart would do well simply knowing that x batsman averages 13 against left arm deliveries over the wicket vs 49 against left arm deliveries round the wicket. This is the kind of data that should be working under Waqar Younis and Misbah and feeding Azhar Ali details on the batsmen currently at the crease.

Multan Sultans has used this data-driven approach, with Shan Masood at the helm no less, to great effect and success in the most recent Pakistan Super League. If there is one thing Wasim Khan and Ehsan Mani can do for Pakistan cricket, it is hiring a competent analytics team.

 

[Titan24]

I’m sure you already do, but if not I would highly encourage you and any other posters here to check out the “CricViz Analyst” Twitter account and look at their statistical analyses. Imagine a data team like this working with the PCB!

For example, even a bowler who is not so smart would do well simply knowing that x batsman averages 13 against left arm deliveries over the wicket vs 49 against left arm deliveries round the wicket. This is the kind of data that should be working under Waqar Younis and Misbah and feeding Azhar Ali details on the batsmen currently at the crease.

Multan Sultans has used this data-driven approach, with Shan Masood at the helm no less, to great effect and success in the most recent Pakistan Super League. If there is one thing Wasim Khan and Ehsan Mani can do for Pakistan cricket, it is hiring a competent analytics team.

Agreed. Its a really crucial part of cricket in the modern era.

 

[ElRaja]

theres nothing particularly wrong the with seam bowling attack, they just have very limited knowledge and match awareness. this is more an issue of messed up strategies by the team management, overly defensive and with no plan b.

need to back em till about 20 tests before making a definitive judgement. if asad can play 80 odd, these guys deserve 20. also there is no one banging down the door, seamers got destroyed in QeA trophy.

 

[Mamoon]

Talha and Naseem are totally different types of athletes, with different actions, and strengths/weaknesses.
Height is Naseem's only downside. He doesn't know the art of taking test wickets at the moment, which is understandable given his age and level of first class experience and has a few technical faults which can very easily be adressed by someone who isn't named 'Waqar Younis'.
Aside from that, he has all the ingredients to be a fantastic bowler.
You need to stop talking about fast bowling. You have got zero knowledge on this art. You weren't a fast bowler yourself, at any level and you have not studied the art either.
Talk about Haider Ali, or any other young batsman, and while your comments will still be negative and pessimistic, it will atleast have some substance and knowledge to back it up.

You can flex your so-called knowledge of fast bowling as much as you want, and you might claim to know about the art of fast bowling, but the bigger problem is that you don’t know anything about Pakistan cricket.

Now understanding the reality of Pakistan cricket is my domain. I know the true face of this team inside out, and that is why I am repeatedly warning you to not set yourself up for disappointment.

Here we go again. Naseem will never be the bowler you think he can be. With all due and undue respect, you are plain delusional and you will be latching onto another mediocre overhyped young Pakistani bowler once you make peace with the fact Naseem will never amount to anything.

The quicker you realize where Pakistan cricket is heading and where players like Naseem will end up, the lesser your disappointment will be.

Now you can call me a glass half empty person and a pessimist or whatever, but I would actually prefer to be the opposite of that if I could see any reason for optimism and hope. Unfortunately, there are nine.

Pakistan is a small, weak and mediocre cricket nation and the likes of Naseem are perfect to ensure that we sustain our level.

 

[shady]

Pakistan is a small, weak and mediocre cricket nation and the likes of Naseem are perfect to ensure that we sustain our level.

Honestly I admire your commitment to delusion

 

[MenInG]

Honestly I admire your commitment to delusion

Dont think we should pay much attention to such comments - they are meant to rile people up only.

Naseem and Shaheen are the future of Pakistan bowling but need careful care - this is where Waqar or whoever his successor is if he leaves will need to be very careful.

 

[Mamoon]

Your comment on his height has been disproven by plenty of fast bowlers through history so I don't need to address that. As far as those statements, they're completely normal for any young athlete. The best athletes in the world all have the belief that they're the best at what they do, even if it's mostly bravado when they're young and inexperienced. It's much better to have a young athlete with supreme confidence in himself rather than someone unsure of his abilities. Cricket is pretty backwards in that any sort of bravado is seen as disrespectful/unbecoming, even though sports and bravado often go hand in hand. Also, your answer to how is Naseem mediocre basically boils down to he's not tall enough and I think he talks too arrogantly which is a pretty weak answer.

Sorry, just saw this.

Everyone like bravado but no one like fake bravado. That is what Naseem is at this point.

There is nothing wrong with being confident and being a talker but then you also need to have the ability to translate them into performances.

Naseem can talk all he wants about seeing fear in batsmen’s eyes and hurting English batsmen if they underestimate him, but all of that becomes pointless when he ends up embarrassed on the pitch.

He is actually lucky that he played against a “nice” team like England. Had he told Australians or Kohli’s India that he would hurt them and ended up owned on the pitch, they would have sledged him out of international cricket.

So what is the lesson here? The lesson is that you need to perform first before opening your mouth. If an established player who has proved himself in the past makes big statement and fails, it is acceptable because he has proved his capability in the past.

But the only place where Naseem has proved his capability is in people’s heads.

Forget the height. His performances in Australia and England showed that he is miles, miles away from being a great bowler.

Now you can say that oh it is just a few games and he is young and inexperienced etc., but I have no reason to share your optimism because we have seen a plethora of overhyped young Pakistani players whose heads are in the clouds and then they lose their way after getting a reality check.

There is no reason to believe that Naseem will be any different.

 

[Mamoon]

Honestly I admire your commitment to delusion

My commitment is to helping people open their eyes and see where Pakistan cricket stands and where it is heading.

Their is a huge gap between what our fans expect the team to perform like and what the actual capability of this team is.

Our fans overhype mediocre players and then act surprised when the mediocre players fail to deliver, and then they make excuses and find other people to blame before eventually making peace with reality.

Then they latch onto other mediocre player and the cycle continues. I know this because I was no different at one point.

 

[Mamoon]

Had Misbah picked Sohail and Imran instead of Naseem and Shaheen, they wouldn’t have fared any worse and we would still have lost, but our fans would be blasting Misbah for preferring oldies and how Naseem and Shaheen would have blown England away.

That is how delusional our fans are.

 

[topspin]

Naseem and Abbas need to dropped for good.

I totally agree. Abbas has served us as well but he's been worked out very easily. Ever since then he hasn't found a way to counter batsmen batting out of their crease.

I expected Abbas to do well with the new Duke ball in England. Give him a kookaburra or any older ball, he is simply toothless.

 

[topspin]

Had Misbah picked Sohail and Imran instead of Naseem and Shaheen, they wouldn’t have fared any worse and we would still have lost, but our fans would be blasting Misbah for preferring oldies and how Naseem and Shaheen would have blown England away.

That is how delusional our fans are.

Shall I tell where the problem lies with Misbah's selections when it comes to fast bowlers? He has picked either raw bowlers (for e.g. Naseem and Musa) or over the hill uncles (for e.g. Sohail Khan and Imran Khan). It lacks depth because he didn't opt for someone with the right amount of experience in the right age bracket (who's under 30 years of age) with a proven domestic track record.

It was criminal to go to Australia with Naseem and Musa instead of Sameen and Ehsan Adil especially when you consider their height differences. Even after that drubbing we got from the Aussies, Misbah fails to learn from his mistakes. He had a chance to somewhat redeem himself by replacing the failed duo but no he sticks with the same bowlers in the squad and adds a bunch of uncles instead.

So not we're not all delusional to think that Naseem should be an automatic starter. I never rated him and like yourself I knew the reality check was incoming for the recently concluded England series. As for Shaheen, even you mentioned it yourself when you said something along the lines of "a good bowler who underperformed" which I think is an accurate assessment. He just had a bad series and I'm sure he'll bounce back because he has all the ingredients to become one of the top bowlers in world cricket.

 

[shady]

Their is a huge gap between what our fans expect the team to perform like and what the actual capability of this team is.

Our fans overhype mediocre players and then act surprised when the mediocre players fail to deliver, and then they make excuses and find other people to blame before eventually making peace with reality.

Then they latch onto other mediocre player and the cycle continues. I know this because I was no different at one point.

Nothing that you described is uncommon in sports. Fans are emotionally attached to the teams they follow and often that emotional attachment manifests itself as relentless optimism. That relentless optimism can be especially useful if you follow a team that doesn't win often as it gives you a reason to keep watching. There's nothing wrong with that since its just entertainment after all.

All you've done is gone the other way and been relentlessly pessimistic. There's nothing insightful in what you're saying, you're just being a contrarian and presenting it as the "real truth" as contrarians often do.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

My commitment is to helping people open their eyes and see where Pakistan cricket stands and where it is heading.

Why are you so committed to this? Honest question. Let people be deluded if it makes them happy. Even if you are right in that we are deluded, this delusion is the only thing that still allows Pakistan cricket to keep going. Otherwise the team won’t have the support to keep going, or the young boys and girls picking up the game to become future players. This delusion is the only thing separating Pakistan Cricket and Pakistan Hockey, for example - why are you so committed against it?

 

[Thunderbolt14]

Why are you so committed to this? Honest question. Let people be deluded if it makes them happy. Even if you are right in that we are deluded, this delusion is the only thing that still allows Pakistan cricket to keep going. Otherwise the team won’t have the support to keep going, or the young boys and girls picking up the game to become future players. This delusion is the only thing separating Pakistan Cricket and Pakistan Hockey, for example - why are you so committed against it?

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] you’ve been posting on other threads since - I’m very curious.

 

[Varun]

Why are you so committed to this? Honest question. Let people be deluded if it makes them happy. Even if you are right in that we are deluded, this delusion is the only thing that still allows Pakistan cricket to keep going. Otherwise the team won’t have the support to keep going, or the young boys and girls picking up the game to become future players. This delusion is the only thing separating Pakistan Cricket and Pakistan Hockey, for example - why are you so committed against it?

Pakistanis won't ever tune out from cricket. There's no other sport to substitute it with, and honestly thry aren't too bad at it.

 

[Majid Khan]

If any stats gurus out there, I’m trying to work out when was the last occasion a Pakistani fast bowler bowled two 5-wicket spells in the same test series ?

And stats for the above with performances both including and also excluding Bangladesh/Zimbabwe.

My guess is we might be going back to 90s or early 2000s.

This is the main reason for decline in Pakistan’s test team - we no longer have match winning fast bowlers who can skittle the opposition batting line up for under 150. Your best hope is Abbas on a seamers paradise.

I was wrong all along, thought Hafeez was to blame for Pakistan’s decline in cricket ... I mean OK it does help to play with 11 players instead of 10 and a passenger - but it doesn’t solve the problem of pace attack having no bite.

 

[Majid Khan]

One example here - https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...2nd-test-pakistan-tour-of-new-zealand-2003-04

Shoaib took 5-48 in 1st inns and 5-30 in 2nd inns v NZ— not bad at all, and Pakistan won the match.

Forget Imran, Wasim, Waqar — can anyone see Pakistan producing a fast bowler (leave aside pace ) that can be anywhere near as effective as Shoaib Akhtar even in the near future and have the ability to do this kind of damage ?
Not looking likely at the moment and has not for some time. I would love for Naseem and Shaheen to prove me wrong in coming years.

Maybe the mindset of Pakistani fast bowlers has changed , why are they not going all out attack and for the kill like they used to? Now it looks like beating the batsman with an edge outside off stump is the only way they can get batsmen out.

 

[ask_analyse_act]

Over reliance on youngsters. You need couple of well experienced bowlers. It appears no lessons were learnt from Australia series.

Because they have got Waqar and Misbah. The most stubborn people. They will hold on to orange and say it’s apple. As far as we have seen these two had no eye for talent and wasted 4 years to build an ODI team. Gave captaincy to Azhar Ali, revamped the whole team after the WC and lost a historical 3-0 whitewash to Bangladesh