Where would Salman Butt have been as a batsman/captain today?

[Bhaijaan]

If the fixing fiasco had never happened..


At that time, a senior Pakistani batsman. Mainstay of test and ODI batting. At his peak as a batsman and given the kind of batting surfaces Pakistan has played majority of its hoke cricket during this time, I guess he would have achieved a lot and been still the top Pakistani batsman good enough to serve for another 10 years or so.



Throw back to 2004, this kid spoiled the show for Indians at Eden Gardens, winning the priced Golden Jubilee celebration ODI for Pakistan.

Always remember his two hundreds vs Australia away from home.


Salman bhai, what did you do buddy. You had much to achieve and leave a legacy.

 

[MenInG]

I dont think he was any greatshakes in Tests so guess LOI opener maybe.

 

[Major]

That depends, was Salman Butt a supporter of playing 2 front line spinners or not. Because, before Misbah, no other Pakistan captain would use two front line spinners, and would rely on 3 front line pacers, even on spin tracks.

Misbah introduced this concept, and if i remember correctly, many fans used to bash him for this in the early days, it was after the ENgalnd series in UAE that the bashing stopped.

Pakistan cricket's success in UAE came from the two front line spinner strategy. So it depends what Salman would had done.

I doubt a line up of even Asif, Amir, Wahab/gul in UAE would had bought them success, because its not swing only, but pace is what you need on those pitches.

As a batsmen, he was never a good one. He was an Indian smasher, and started to make a name for himself after his 2010 performances.

Also, then after 2011, Pakistan became reliant on Misbah Ul haq's batting. So that depends, would Butt had played Misbah during his captaincy or not?

too many ifs and buts, you have to analyse what strategies he would had used had he been playing.

PLus if the fixing fiasco never happened, wonder how many games he would had thrown away

 

[Junaids]

It would have been a very different world, in which you played your Home Tests in England and were stronger outside Asia than in Asia.

What I will say is this.

Salman Butt was the same age as Azhar Ali and five years younger than Mohammad Hafeez, and he had seen them both off as players because the selectors had recognised that he was a better batsman than either of them.

I think that if Salman Butt had not been so stupid and unethical as to do what he did he would have been captain for a very long time, like Graeme Smith. We saw that he was the calmest, most correct user of DRS that Pakistan has ever had, in spite of Kamran Akmal's lousy advice, and he would have been a calm, correct skipper.

But Salman Butt has nobody to blame but himself for messing it all up. I really hope that he uses well the second chance that he has been so fortunate to receive.

 

[ExplicitAI]

As a captain he wouldn't have achieved much as what Misbah has today, he would've lost quite a few number of games which is pretty realistic. As a batsman I'd say he would've hit at least 6 ODI tons ( a lot against minnows) and would've had a period of poor form for quite some time. Then again this is my own thought as a Pak fan who has seen a lot of stuff from our team and knows the chemistry very well.

 

[Bhaijaan]

To those who say he was just an Indian basher I have to ask how many Pakistan players have back to back test hundreds in Australia?

 

[ask_analyse_act]

he was coming good as a batsman and test skipper when he was convicted of spot fixing in 2010... but i'm not sure whether MYK and MOYO continue to play under butt as there is a culture of not letting a youngster be a captain for the seniors, because it works that way in PCT.. could have been another oathgate.. MISBAH couldnt have made his mark as the responsibility of being the skipper got him to the best, because he was completely out of shots before the ENGLISH summer and his poor form didn't get him a place in the squad.. Butt had a young test lineup without MYK and MOYO ... Later MOYO joined and pak would have played young test team with MOYO doing the senior role as a solid middle order batsman and mentor for the young newcomers...MYK could have returned it depends on his ego shutting and shoving... MISBAH being a senior and 36yo,, would be doubtful to return....Hafeez return would have been "?" too many ifs and buts butt himself is to blame...spoiled many ODI wins for the last 5 years because the test team is very good as it is ranked no.2 now....

 

[Zahid87]

It would have been a very different world, in which you played your Home Tests in England and were stronger outside Asia than in Asia.

What I will say is this.

Salman Butt was the same age as Azhar Ali and five years younger than Mohammad Hafeez, and he had seen them both off as players because the selectors had recognised that he was a better batsman than either of them.

I think that if Salman Butt had not been so stupid and unethical as to do what he did he would have been captain for a very long time, like Graeme Smith. We saw that he was the calmest, most correct user of DRS that Pakistan has ever had, in spite of Kamran Akmal's lousy advice, and he would have been a calm, correct skipper.

But Salman Butt has nobody to blame but himself for messing it all up. I really hope that he uses well the second chance that he has been so fortunate to receive.

You forget - this is Pakistan. He would have had a shelf life as a captain. A loss in an ICC tournament, and he would be gone.

Misbah is an exception - he survived because of the world which Pakistan found itself in after the scandal. If the scandal had not taken place, then it would have been the usual captaincy merry go round.

 

[Justcrazy]

He would have got 10 K plus runs in OD and at least 25 - 30 Hundreds.

 

[Mamoon]

I think he was talented and a good batsmen. Clearly better than the openers we had after him. And had he played more, I think he would be a Pakistani great by now.

I agree. Butt was coming into his own around 2009-2010 and had a better understanding of his game. He was an ODI specialist years, but was beginning to do well in Tests and T20s as well.

By the time he was banned, he had firmly established himself as the first-choice opener in all formats. He must be kicking himself for missing out on years of UAE bashing.

I have no doubts that he would have scored 20+ Tests and ODI hundreds.

 

[ExpressPacer]

I agree. Butt was coming into his own around 2009-2010 and had a better understanding of his game. He was an ODI specialist years, but was beginning to do well in Tests and T20s as well.

By the time he was banned, he had firmly established himself as the first-choice opener in all formats. He must be kicking himself for missing out on years of UAE bashing.

I have no doubts that he would have scored 20+ Tests and ODI hundreds.

To add to that, aside from his spot-fixing adventures, I found him to be a decent captain and a figure that was willing to give it back to the opposition. A clear antithesis of the meek and submissive captains of today.

Butt used his bowlers brilliantly and often had out of the box field placements which produced wickets. You could feel his aura on the field. It's a shame he got into fixing because what often goes missed is, the biggest loss from 2010 were not the bowlers, cause we had more in the stocks, it was Butt, a quality batsman and a captain with a personality.

 

[Hamza_]

I agree with [MENTION=141922]ExpressPacer[/MENTION]

Butt's personality was solid and he knew how to conduct himself.

 

[RickyG]

And he was very good too. However, he wasn't educated. He was just from a posh family and had a comfortable upbringing in Lahore, don't think he went to University. Masood is genuinely educated from a top Uni in the UK.

What was he good at? Pulling the wool over your eyes? Spot fixing? Going to jail?

Terrible fielder and an under-achieving batsman.

 

[RickyG]

I think he was talented and a good batsmen. Clearly better than the openers we had after him. And had he played more, I think he would be a Pakistani great by now.

I would take Hafeez, Taufeeq Umar and even Sami Aslam over your personal hero.

 

[Haroon786]

I agree. Butt was coming into his own around 2009-2010 and had a better understanding of his game. He was an ODI specialist years, but was beginning to do well in Tests and T20s as well.

By the time he was banned, he had firmly established himself as the first-choice opener in all formats. He must be kicking himself for missing out on years of UAE bashing.

I have no doubts that he would have scored 20+ Tests and ODI hundreds.

To add to that, aside from his spot-fixing adventures, I found him to be a decent captain and a figure that was willing to give it back to the opposition. A clear antithesis of the meek and submissive captains of today.

Butt used his bowlers brilliantly and often had out of the box field placements which produced wickets. You could feel his aura on the field. It's a shame he got into fixing because what often goes missed is, the biggest loss from 2010 were not the bowlers, cause we had more in the stocks, it was Butt, a quality batsman and a captain with a personality.

I'm glad that I'm able to extinguish this myth of Butt the potential ATG you're perpetuating. To begin with, Butt since the beginning of 2009 until his final series in 2010, averaged 32 in both Tests and ODIs, in the process only scoring 1 ton in 14 Tests and 1 ton in 18 ODIs - so much for 'firmly establishing' his place in the side, if anything he should have been booted from the team well before the England series in 2010!

As for his captaincy, he was really fortunate that he had Amir and Asif right at their very best, bowling for him, along with a pretty game Umar Gul and Saeed Ajmal. That was a great bowling line-up in favourable conditions, so most of the credit should go to the bowlers and not to the captain who purposefully told his bowlers to underperform in that series. Finally, lest we forget, Butt averaged a grand 16 runs over the 4 Tests in his final series - so much for great potential!

 

[Haroon786]

I agree. Butt was coming into his own around 2009-2010 and had a better understanding of his game. He was an ODI specialist years, but was beginning to do well in Tests and T20s as well.

By the time he was banned, he had firmly established himself as the first-choice opener in all formats. He must be kicking himself for missing out on years of UAE bashing.

I have no doubts that he would have scored 20+ Tests and ODI hundreds.

What was he good at? Pulling the wool over your eyes? Spot fixing? Going to jail?

Terrible fielder and an under-achieving batsman.

Exactly, sometimes I wonder how certain posters develop their opinions - like do they watch the actual cricket or do they make their own mind up because of an agenda?

 

[Abdullah719]

I'm glad that I'm able to extinguish this myth of Butt the potential ATG you're perpetuating. To begin with, Butt since the beginning of 2009 until his final series in 2010, averaged 32 in both Tests and ODIs, in the process only scoring 1 ton in 14 Tests and 1 ton in 18 ODIs - so much for 'firmly establishing' his place in the side, if anything he should have been booted from the team well before the England series in 2010!

As for his captaincy, he was really fortunate that he had Amir and Asif right at their very best, bowling for him, along with a pretty game Umar Gul and Saeed Ajmal. That was a great bowling line-up in favourable conditions, so most of the credit should go to the bowlers and not to the captain who purposefully told his bowlers to underperform in that series. Finally, lest we forget, Butt averaged a grand 16 runs over the 4 Tests in his final series - so much for great potential!

Barring a few innings against Australia, he had a deeply mediocre career.

 

[Haroon786]

Barring a few innings against Australia, he had a deeply mediocre career.

But, but Butt would have been a batsman in the same class as Sangakkara and a better captain than Clive Lloyd.

Butt averaged 25 in 25 Tests with only 1 century against all teams excluding Australia and averaged 31 striking @ 73 in 57 ODIs with only 3 tons against everyone barring India. Maybe, there should be a new category called GOAT at performing against one team in one format?

 

[Markhor]

To add to that, aside from his spot-fixing adventures, I found him to be a decent captain and a figure that was willing to give it back to the opposition. A clear antithesis of the meek and submissive captains of today.

Butt used his bowlers brilliantly and often had out of the box field placements which produced wickets. You could feel his aura on the field. It's a shame he got into fixing because what often goes missed is, the biggest loss from 2010 were not the bowlers, cause we had more in the stocks, it was Butt, a quality batsman and a captain with a personality.

Is that why he allowed England to score 446 after we had them reduced to 102-7 in the Lord's Test ?

Broad of all people scored 169 in that match.

 

[topspin]

I agree. Butt was coming into his own around 2009-2010 and had a better understanding of his game. He was an ODI specialist years, but was beginning to do well in Tests and T20s as well.

By the time he was banned, he had firmly established himself as the first-choice opener in all formats. He must be kicking himself for missing out on years of UAE bashing.

I have no doubts that he would have scored 20+ Tests and ODI hundreds.

I'm in complete agreement with this. Salman Butt was a slow starter but he was ready to kick on because he finally grasped his game.

Unfortunately the stats bullies won't get it.

 

[ExpressPacer]

I'm glad that I'm able to extinguish this myth of Butt the potential ATG you're perpetuating. To begin with, Butt since the beginning of 2009 until his final series in 2010, averaged 32 in both Tests and ODIs, in the process only scoring 1 ton in 14 Tests and 1 ton in 18 ODIs - so much for 'firmly establishing' his place in the side, if anything he should have been booted from the team well before the England series in 2010!

As for his captaincy, he was really fortunate that he had Amir and Asif right at their very best, bowling for him, along with a pretty game Umar Gul and Saeed Ajmal. That was a great bowling line-up in favourable conditions, so most of the credit should go to the bowlers and not to the captain who purposefully told his bowlers to underperform in that series. Finally, lest we forget, Butt averaged a grand 16 runs over the 4 Tests in his final series - so much for great potential!

I'll reiterate what I earlier said, I feel as though he had a decent technique and with focus on fitness, he would have eventually ended up as a Pakistan great by now. I understand where you're coming from but I'm basing my entire conclusion off of potential that I was able to see.

 

[Haroon786]

I'm in complete agreement with this. Salman Butt was a slow starter but he was ready to kick on because he finally grasped his game.

Unfortunately the stats bullies won't get it.

There's a point where you can blur the line from reality and myth with stats but Butt was so woeful that you simply can't, an average of 30 or a trickle more in both formats of the game in the last 2 years of his career simply cannot be ignored. He had no business being in the team.

 

[Haroon786]

I'll reiterate what I earlier said, I feel as though he had a decent technique and with focus on fitness, he would have eventually ended up as a Pakistan great by now. I understand where you're coming from but I'm basing my entire conclusion off of potential that I was able to see.

Noted; that's fine, not everyone uses a sound basis and facts to support their arguments.

 

[Mamoon]

[MENTION=134473]Haroon786[/MENTION]

2010 was the year Butt was supposed to come of age. He top-scored for Pakistan in World T20 2010, his weakest format. He outscored the likes of de Villiers, Warner, McCullum, Sangakkara, Watson, Raina etc.

He then followed it up with the tour of England where he was the leading scorer from both teams in the two Test series against Australia.

Yes he failed in the England series, but those four Tests were a nightmare for the batsmen - the conditions were incredibly bowling-friendly. Apart from Trott, who was arguably the best Test batsman in the world at that point, every batsman was a walking wicket. Butt was as bad as Pietersen or Strauss or Cook (with the exception of one innings).

Butt was quite similar to Masood. Not very gifted, but hard working, intelligent and with a good understanding of the game. Much like Masood today, it wasn't until his late 20's that Butt found his game. Players like them tend to play their best cricket in their 30s. Someone like Misbah was in the same mould.

I firmly believe that the post 2010 version of Butt would have been more prolific and consistent than the 2004-2009 version. As far as his captaincy is concerned, I am not interested in discussing the merits of his tactics because he only led the team for one full series, but it was inevitable that he was going to lead the team in all formats.

He was presentable and reasonably educated, and was well-liked by the PCB. By the summer of 2010, he had established himself as the first-choice opener in all formats. For pretty much the bulk of his career, he was the first-choice ODI opener because he was the only specialist opener who had the knack of scoring hundreds.

In T20Is, he cemented his place with his performance in the WT20 2010, and in Test cricket, he made the opening slot his own by top-scoring against Australia as well as scoring a hundred against them in Hobart earlier that year. As Test captain, he led Pakistan to a long overdue win against Australia in Leeds and was one Trott-Broad partnership away from levelling the series 2-2 against England.

Had the spot-fixing not happened, or had he managed to avoid getting caught, he would have lead the team in the ODI series as well and would have been eventually appointed as T20 captain as well.

 

[Haroon786]

[MENTION=134473]Haroon786[/MENTION]

2010 was the year Butt was supposed to come of age. He top-scored for Pakistan in World T20 2010, his weakest format. He outscored the likes of de Villiers, Warner, McCullum, Sangakkara, Watson, Raina etc.

He then followed it up with the tour of England where he was the leading scorer from both teams in the two Test series against Australia.

Yes he failed in the England series, but those four Tests were a nightmare for the batsmen - the conditions were incredibly bowling-friendly. Apart from Trott, who was arguably the best Test batsman in the world at that point, every batsman was a walking wicket. Butt was as bad as Pietersen or Strauss or Cook (with the exception of one innings).

Butt was quite similar to Masood. Not very gifted, but hard working, intelligent and with a good understanding of the game. Much like Masood today, it wasn't until his late 20's that Butt found his game. Players like them tend to play their best cricket in their 30s. Someone like Misbah was in the same mould.

I firmly believe that the post 2010 version of Butt would have been more prolific and consistent than the 2004-2009 version. As far as his captaincy is concerned, I am not interested in discussing the merits of his tactics because he only led the team for one full series, but it was inevitable that he was going to lead the team in all formats.

He was presentable and reasonably educated, and was well-liked by the PCB. By the summer of 2010, he had established himself as the first-choice opener in all formats. For pretty much the bulk of his career, he was the first-choice ODI opener because he was the only specialist opener who had the knack of scoring hundreds.

In T20Is, he cemented his place with his performance in the WT20 2010, and in Test cricket, he made the opening slot his own by top-scoring against Australia as well as scoring a hundred against them in Hobart earlier that year. As Test captain, he led Pakistan to a long overdue win against Australia in Leeds and was one Trott-Broad partnership away from levelling the series 2-2 against England.

Had the spot-fixing not happened, or had he managed to avoid getting caught, he would have lead the team in the ODI series as well and would have been eventually appointed as T20 captain as well.

You have quite adeptly avoided the fact that he was quite dismal in the final 2 years of his international career and would most likely have been dropped from the two major formats had he continued.

Regarding the 2010 WT20, Butt aside from his 73 against Bangladesh, who back then were minnows, did nothing special in his other 5 innings and went missing in the semi-final against Australia, only going at a run a ball for his 30 odd and in the end that proved to be significant in a fast paced, high scoring game. It's already been established that Butt only really performed well against the Aussies in Tests so trumpeting that as some kind of achievement or indicator of improvement is meaningless when he had been producing against the same team throughout his career before too.

I keep on hearing words like 'talent' and 'potential' and it makes me laugh because this means exactly jack especially when it cannot be backed up by any reasonable fact or argument. If anything, Butt was similar to Shezhad, both heavily overrated and limited batsmen but a few decent performances led to them getting labelled as 'talented' and having 'great potential'.

Cricket is a game of character and Butt has proven to the whole world that he's a rotten, vile person who doesn't deserve any mention in Paksitani cricketing history as demonstrated by the mediocrity of his batting or the corrupt nature of his off-field persona.

 

[topspin]

There's a point where you can blur the line from reality and myth with stats but Butt was so woeful that you simply can't, an average of 30 or a trickle more in both formats of the game in the last 2 years of his career simply cannot be ignored. He had no business being in the team.

The point is he was raw to begin with which can be prolonged in Pakistan cricket due to the poor cricketing structure Pakistan possesses because of the shortcomings in the quality of domestic cricket as a whole and because of the abundance of poor coaches.

Purely from a technical perspective his game was already there particularly with the back foot shots. He was an excellent puller and cutter off the ball. He never showed mental frailty or timidness or signs of a limited batsman like we've seen with Hafeez, Shafiq and Azhar Ali.

Salman Butt showed glimpses of what he could achieve against top bowlers with his performances in Australia and in the WT20 2010 where he was the 3rd highest scorer averaging 44.60 at a strike rate in excess of 130. It was after this tournament when I realised this man had turned a corner and believe me I've watched every single innings of his up until that dreaded Lords test 9 years ago. He was a level above the trio of the 2010s (mentioned above) and I concur with [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] he almost certainly would have cashed in on those dead UAE wickets and also on flatter wickets globally to end a career with 20 test tons. Not to forget also there was big dip in the bowling standards from the 2000s to the 2010s.

If an inferior batsman in Hafeez at one point was able to average in excess of 50 in UAE (prior to his decline) then there is no doubt a more complete batsman in Salman Butt would have at the very least matched his numbers. If Azhar and Shafiq were to play in the 2000s and debut in 03 like him their numbers would probably be even worse because they're even more deficient mentally and technically in the case of the former.

His main problem was his lack of discipline with wafting for balls well outside off stump and hence why it ended up being his prime mode of dismissal. But overall mentally and technically he was in a good place and you can easily see from his captaincy that he also had an intelligent cricket, which is what makes it even more sad when he decided to throw his career away because he was not only a good batsman but also a good captain in the making. Who knows Pakistan may have won that 2011 WC if he was playing because we missed his presence in particular given how frail the batting line up was in that tournament.

In tests he was on his way to becoming a world class LOI batsman and a solid 42-45 average test bat with runs in all conditons unlike his replacement Hafeez.

 

[topspin]

The point is he was raw to begin with which can be prolonged in Pakistan cricket due to the poor cricketing structure Pakistan possesses because of the shortcomings in the quality of domestic cricket as a whole and because of the abundance of poor coaches.

Purely from a technical perspective his game was already there particularly with the back foot shots. He was an excellent puller and cutter off the ball. He never showed mental frailty or timidness or signs of a limited batsman like we've seen with Hafeez, Shafiq and Azhar Ali.

Salman Butt showed glimpses of what he could achieve against top bowlers with his performances in Australia and in the WT20 2010 where he was the 3rd highest scorer averaging 44.60 at a strike rate in excess of 130. It was after this tournament when I realised this man had turned a corner and believe me I've watched every single innings of his up until that dreaded Lords test 9 years ago. He was a level above the trio of the 2010s (mentioned above) and I concur with [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] he almost certainly would have cashed in on those dead UAE wickets and also on flatter wickets globally to end a career with 20 test tons. Not to forget also there was big dip in the bowling standards from the 2000s to the 2010s.

If an inferior batsman in Hafeez at one point was able to average in excess of 50 in UAE (prior to his decline) then there is no doubt a more complete batsman in Salman Butt would have at the very least matched his numbers. If Azhar and Shafiq were to play in the 2000s and debut in 03 like him their numbers would probably be even worse because they're even more deficient mentally and technically in the case of the former.

His main problem was his lack of discipline with wafting for balls well outside off stump and hence why it ended up being his prime mode of dismissal. But overall mentally and technically he was in a good place and you can easily see from his captaincy that he also had an intelligent cricket, which is what makes it even more sad when he decided to throw his career away because he was not only a good batsman but also a good captain in the making. Who knows Pakistan may have won that 2011 WC if he was playing because we missed his presence in particular given how frail the batting line up was in that tournament.

In tests he was on his way to becoming a world class LOI batsman and a solid 42-45 average test bat with runs in all conditons unlike his replacement Hafeez.

*intelligent cricket brain

* he was on his way to becoming a world class LOI batsman and a solid 42-45 average test bat with runs in all conditons unlike his replacement Hafeez

 

[Mamoon]

You have quite adeptly avoided the fact that he was quite dismal in the final 2 years of his international career and would most likely have been dropped from the two major formats had he continued.

Regarding the 2010 WT20, Butt aside from his 73 against Bangladesh, who back then were minnows, did nothing special in his other 5 innings and went missing in the semi-final against Australia, only going at a run a ball for his 30 odd and in the end that proved to be significant in a fast paced, high scoring game. It's already been established that Butt only really performed well against the Aussies in Tests so trumpeting that as some kind of achievement or indicator of improvement is meaningless when he had been producing against the same team throughout his career before too.

I keep on hearing words like 'talent' and 'potential' and it makes me laugh because this means exactly jack especially when it cannot be backed up by any reasonable fact or argument. If anything, Butt was similar to Shezhad, both heavily overrated and limited batsmen but a few decent performances led to them getting labelled as 'talented' and having 'great potential'.

Cricket is a game of character and Butt has proven to the whole world that he's a rotten, vile person who doesn't deserve any mention in Paksitani cricketing history as demonstrated by the mediocrity of his batting or the corrupt nature of his off-field persona.

Butt was poor in 2008-2009, and he was dropped from the team. He returned in 2009-2010, and top scored for Pakistan in Australia, in England vs Australia and the WT20. His ascension was of course terminated in the summer of 2010 when he was caught.

He was showing signs of taking his game to the next level. As far as comparisons with Shehzad and Hafeez are concerned, there were clear differences between him and those two.

 

[Haroon786]

The point is he was raw to begin with which can be prolonged in Pakistan cricket due to the poor cricketing structure Pakistan possesses because of the shortcomings in the quality of domestic cricket as a whole and because of the abundance of poor coaches.

Purely from a technical perspective his game was already there particularly with the back foot shots. He was an excellent puller and cutter off the ball. He never showed mental frailty or timidness or signs of a limited batsman like we've seen with Hafeez, Shafiq and Azhar Ali.

Salman Butt showed glimpses of what he could achieve against top bowlers with his performances in Australia and in the WT20 2010 where he was the 3rd highest scorer averaging 44.60 at a strike rate in excess of 130. It was after this tournament when I realised this man had turned a corner and believe me I've watched every single innings of his up until that dreaded Lords test 9 years ago. He was a level above the trio of the 2010s (mentioned above) and I concur with [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] he almost certainly would have cashed in on those dead UAE wickets and also on flatter wickets globally to end a career with 20 test tons. Not to forget also there was big dip in the bowling standards from the 2000s to the 2010s.

If an inferior batsman in Hafeez at one point was able to average in excess of 50 in UAE (prior to his decline) then there is no doubt a more complete batsman in Salman Butt would have at the very least matched his numbers. If Azhar and Shafiq were to play in the 2000s and debut in 03 like him their numbers would probably be even worse because they're even more deficient mentally and technically in the case of the former.

His main problem was his lack of discipline with wafting for balls well outside off stump and hence why it ended up being his prime mode of dismissal. But overall mentally and technically he was in a good place and you can easily see from his captaincy that he also had an intelligent cricket, which is what makes it even more sad when he decided to throw his career away because he was not only a good batsman but also a good captain in the making. Who knows Pakistan may have won that 2011 WC if he was playing because we missed his presence in particular given how frail the batting line up was in that tournament.

In tests he was on his way to becoming a world class LOI batsman and a solid 42-45 average test bat with runs in all conditons unlike his replacement Hafeez.

Let's not pretend that Butt was a novice and was a rookie when he got caught. He had been in the international set up for around 6-7 years at that point and any technical issues were ironed out as he had played well over a 100 internationals for the team, yet he couldn't average more then 32 in his final 2 years for Pakistan. Really says it all.

There is no way that I see Butt averaging as much as Azhar and Shafiq have in Test cricket because he would have been an opener throughout this period and therefore facing the opposition's best bowlers with the new ball and hence getting out earlier too as his defence was very shoddy. Regarding Hafeez, he was a great player of spin and his technique was very suited to Asian pitches, Butt, on the other hand, was mediocre in Asia averaging 30 in 16 Tests.

I do think that Pakistan would have won the 2011 WC if the trio had not been caught fixing, especially as Butt always performed against India in ODIs and a chase of 260 was definitely possible if some brains were employed by Pakistan.

Butt was never going to become world class or great, he was average and abysmal for the most part, apart from the odd exceptions against Aus in Tests and India in ODIs. He wouldn't magically start performing 50% better in the following few years because he simply wasn't good enough to do so.

 

[Haroon786]

Butt was poor in 2008-2009, and he was dropped from the team. He returned in 2009-2010, and top scored for Pakistan in Australia, in England vs Australia and the WT20. His ascension was of course terminated in the summer of 2010 when he was caught.

He was showing signs of taking his game to the next level. As far as comparisons with Shehzad and Hafeez are concerned, there were clear differences between him and those two.

In his last 5 Test series, Butt averaged 32 with only 1 century in 12 Tests - if that's something you want to float about and use as evidence of him becoming a world class batsman, then by all means go ahead but that does not lead to universal consensus as some people have higher standards. Especially when those standards are bettered by Ahmed Shezhad.

With Butt, there is no lack of sample size, so we all know his performances were lacking against aĺl opposition barring Australia in Tests and he was never a great batsman in Asia either, so we could not just extrapolate the success other players like Hafeez and to a lesser extent, Shezhad achieved to Butt.

 

[topspin]

Let's not pretend that Butt was a novice and was a rookie when he got caught. He had been in the international set up for around 6-7 years at that point and any technical issues were ironed out as he had played well over a 100 internationals for the team, yet he couldn't average more then 32 in his final 2 years for Pakistan. Really says it all.

There is no way that I see Butt averaging as much as Azhar and Shafiq have in Test cricket because he would have been an opener throughout this period and therefore facing the opposition's best bowlers with the new ball and hence getting out earlier too as his defence was very shoddy. Regarding Hafeez, he was a great player of spin and his technique was very suited to Asian pitches, Butt, on the other hand, was mediocre in Asia averaging 30 in 16 Tests.

I do think that Pakistan would have won the 2011 WC if the trio had not been caught fixing, especially as Butt always performed against India in ODIs and a chase of 260 was definitely possible if some brains were employed by Pakistan.

Butt was never going to become world class or great, he was average and abysmal for the most part, apart from the odd exceptions against Aus in Tests and India in ODIs. He wouldn't magically start performing 50% better in the following few years because he simply wasn't good enough to do so.

Where did I say/imply Butt was some novice or rookie with his spot fixing?

With the greatest respect you obviously haven't followed his career enough - unlike Mamoon and myself who have followed his career very closely. You're basing your judgements of him based on your assumption of the stats when you state:

He had been in the international set up for around 6-7 years at that point and any technical issues were ironed out as he had played well over a 100 internationals for the team

Also if you think Butt was inferior to Hafeez then that's delusional I'm sorry, you can't be a blind follower of stats without any context whatsoever. For instance gross assumption you made is Hafeez is a better player in Asia all because of his inflated averages on the deadest of wickets (that you find in UAE). You ought to find out what Hafeez averaged in the 2000s before drawing up such conclusion. Butt was a far more complete batsman who was ready to pounce in an era (2010s) of more batting friendly wickets and lesser bowlers.

Butt was on his way to becoming a world class LOI bat - no doubt about it when you consider his performances in the 2010 WT20 and as you said against India in some very high scoring ODIs.

But I'm glad you at least acknowledged Butt's presence was missed in the 2011 WC.

 

[Abdul]

The apologists of these fixers disgust me.

 

[Haroon786]

Where did I say/imply Butt was some novice or rookie with his spot fixing?

With the greatest respect you obviously haven't followed his career enough - unlike Mamoon and myself who have followed his career very closely. You're basing your judgements of him based on your assumption of the stats when you state:

He had been in the international set up for around 6-7 years at that point and any technical issues were ironed out as he had played well over a 100 internationals for the team

Also if you think Butt was inferior to Hafeez then that's delusional I'm sorry, you can't be a blind follower of stats without any context whatsoever. For instance gross assumption you made is Hafeez is a better player in Asia all because of his inflated averages on the deadest of wickets (that you find in UAE). You ought to find out what Hafeez averaged in the 2000s before drawing up such conclusion. Butt was a far more complete batsman who was ready to pounce in an era (2010s) of more batting friendly wickets and lesser bowlers.

Butt was on his way to becoming a world class LOI bat - no doubt about it when you consider his performances in the 2010 WT20 and as you said against India in some very high scoring ODIs.

But I'm glad you at least acknowledged Butt's presence was missed in the 2011 WC.

Goodness, not sure where to begin with this!

One piece of advice I'd like to give before deconstructing your post is that you should read more carefully next time:

My comment about Butt at the time of him getting caught wasn't about the fixing but rather his technique: " any technical issues were ironed out as he had played well over a 100 internationals for the team, yet he couldn't average more then 32 in his final 2 years for Pakistan".

Now coming onto this:

With the greatest respect you obviously haven't followed his career enough

You seem to know Mamoon very well and 'know' that he followed Butt very closely because his opinion matches your opinion but somehow you state you magically 'know' that I haven't followed his career. Well, let me tell you that is absolute ** and that I used to follow cricket a lot more closely back then and apart from his performances against Australia, Butt was horrendously inconsistent and mostly mediocre against most teams.

The only one being delusional here is you, want to know why because you assume on the basis of 'potential' and 'talent' that Butt was better than Hafeez. However, the facts are that Pakistan play at least 2 thirds of their tests in Asia and the significantly better test player in Asia was Hafeez - it simply doesn't matter what Butt did against Australia as away series against them are so rare.

I will reiterate, Butt was mediocre and his odd flash in the pan performances would not have suddenly become his consistent base level of form especially after well over 100 international games for Pakistan.

 

[topspin]

Goodness, not sure where to begin with this!

One piece of advice I'd like to give before deconstructing your post is that you should read more carefully next time:

My comment about Butt at the time of him getting caught wasn't about the fixing but rather his technique: " any technical issues were ironed out as he had played well over a 100 internationals for the team, yet he couldn't average more then 32 in his final 2 years for Pakistan".

Now coming onto this:

You seem to know Mamoon very well and 'know' that he followed Butt very closely because his opinion matches your opinion but somehow you state you magically 'know' that I haven't followed his career. Well, let me tell you that is absolute ** and that I used to follow cricket a lot more closely back then and apart from his performances against Australia, Butt was horrendously inconsistent and mostly mediocre against most teams.

The only one being delusional here is you, want to know why because you assume on the basis of 'potential' and 'talent' that Butt was better than Hafeez. However, the facts are that Pakistan play at least 2 thirds of their tests in Asia and the significantly better test player in Asia was Hafeez - it simply doesn't matter what Butt did against Australia as away series against them are so rare.

I will reiterate, Butt was mediocre and his odd flash in the pan performances would not have suddenly become his consistent base level of form especially after well over 100 international games for Pakistan.

Let's not pretend that Butt was a novice and was a rookie when he got caught

This seems to refer to spot fixing more than anything else, so I would advise formulating posts more carefully first.

Wow you actually believe Hafeez is a better bat than Salman Butt and you think I'm delusional? You obviously haven't watched enough cricket if you come to this opinion or it's simply a coping mechanism if you dislike him so much, you'll write him off at all costs because of his spot fixing sins. He deserves a life ban for his role but that doesn't mean I can pretend he wasn't a loss to Pakistan (especially in the 2011 WC).

You do realise how absurd you actually sound, Hafeez was so bad that he wasn't able to nail a spot in the 2000s ahead of a raw Salman Butt?

Anyone with common sense can see that a batsman who not only performed but top scored in his last Australia tour, against Australia in England and in the WT20 2010 he was on the ascendancy. If you cannot acknowledge his performances in the last 18 months of international cricket this shows your lack of insight and the stats bully in you. What I mean by a stats bully is someone who uses stats without any context whatsoever which is exactly what you've been doing when you continue to cite "career average" because other than that, you haven't been able to add anything to your weak argument.

 

[Haroon786]

Let's not pretend that Butt was a novice and was a rookie when he got caught

This seems to refer to spot fixing more than anything else, so I would advise formulating posts more carefully first.

Wow you actually believe Hafeez is a better bat than Salman Butt and you think I'm delusional? You obviously haven't watched enough cricket if you come to this opinion or it's simply a coping mechanism if you dislike him so much, you'll write him off at all costs because of his spot fixing sins. He deserves a life ban for his role but that doesn't mean I can pretend he wasn't a loss to Pakistan (especially in the 2011 WC).

You do realise how absurd you actually sound, Hafeez was so bad that he wasn't able to nail a spot in the 2000s ahead of a raw Salman Butt?

Anyone with common sense can see that a batsman who not only performed but top scored in his last Australia tour, against Australia in England and in the WT20 2010 he was on the ascendancy. If you cannot acknowledge his performances in the last 18 months of international cricket this shows your lack of insight and the stats bully in you. What I mean by a stats bully is someone who uses stats without any context whatsoever which is exactly what you've been doing when you continue to cite "career average" because other than that, you haven't been able to add anything to your weak argument.

Hahaha, mate you're making me laugh now. If you don't want to read something properly than that's tour prerogative not mine, but then don't expect people to not call you put on your **, you need to improve your reading comprehension.

Want to know why your argument of Butt being better than Hafeez is inane? Very simple, you're rating him higher because of a handful of tests in Australia and having meaningless 'potential' to somehow improve 50% more in the 2010s. Whereas, Hafeez is a proven performer in Asia, where the vast majority of Pakistan tests occur and where Butt averaged an awful 30 in 16 Tests - no way, that's vastly inferior to Hafeez and in no way can be extrapolated to predict the same success that Hafeez attained in Asian tests. Not sure why you're pushing an agenda for Butt, the facts are that first and foremost he was mediocre and only produced on the rare occasion.

As I initially mentioned, when the reality is so clear-cut, stats cannot blur it - an average of 32 in Tests and ODIs in his final 2 years is so awful that I don't know how anyone can argue it's worthy of selection or rather as a measure of future greatness at all. If that's called stat bullying, then so be it - at least I have proper logic based arguments to build from.

 

[Chokli]

Butt was turning out to be a decent ODI opener.

You could always rely on him, either he'd get out for a duck or he'd at least build a partnership..

Sucked in Tests and was too slow for T20s despite a good knock versus NZ in 2010 T20 WC.

 

[Blistering Barnacle]

Butt was not an international class test opener. He was pretty bad, averaging just 30 or so.

He did not deserve to be in the team, let alone made captain.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I can understand people talking up what Amir and Asif could have accomplished. They were on the cusp of reaching their peaks as bowlers in 2010, especially Asif. But Butt? The guy exemplified mediocrity. Only reason he became captain was because PCB ran out of viable options. Let's not forget Afridi was test captain before him. And the idea that he was educated and well-liked so he would have made a good captain makes no sense because he single-handedly brought more disrepute to the captaincy than any other player.

 

[Junaids]

It’s not just that his batting had secured him a place ahead of Hafeez.

He’s exactly the same age as Azhar Ali. And he was a fixture in the team - and suddenly the skipper when Shahid Afridi ran away in the middle of a Test series - because he was a superior batsman to Azhar Ali, with two Test tons in Australia.

 

[sjahmed23]

Butt would be history like Nasir Jameshed. That is why he did what he did. His average speaks for itself and captaincy was nothing special.

 

[MMHS]

It’s not just that his batting had secured him a place ahead of Hafeez.

He’s exactly the same age as Azhar Ali. And he was a fixture in the team - and suddenly the skipper when Shahid Afridi ran away in the middle of a Test series - because he was a superior batsman to Azhar Ali, with two Test tons in Australia.

How Butt is a superior Test batsman to Azhar Ali just because he has 2 centuries in Australia, when Azhar also has a double there only time he toured!!!! This is not considering that Butt was a tail ender elsewhere while Azhar has hundreds in England & West Indies.

 

[Shaka81]

Butt was a mediocre player who had been found out at international level so he decided that corruption was the only way he was going to maintain an income stream before he got removed from the team. If there is any fixing going on in domestic cricket right now, you can be sure he will be involved.

 

[coy0607]

he averaged 30 at his prime as a test batsmen, I imagine that would have dropped to 26-28 by now.

as an ODI player, 7 of his 8 centuries were against Bangla and India. Now that we aren't playing either of those teams, his average in ODIs would be below 30 too.

don't think he would've lasted more than 1-2 years, maybe with another short lived comeback at some stage

 

[aukhan]

So sad to see him fighting for 1 chance to redeem himself.

Wasim, Waqar Inzimam, Anwar and baby sport fixer Amir all were welcomed back with open arms. The hypocrisy of this nation is on another level.

 

[IMMY69]

Butt was an extremely average player and worse fielder..
I hate to have to say this but he was as useless as his useless *******

 

[Ami]

Average at best going by his record at the time...

 

[JibranAnsari]

was the captain of pakistan at the age of 25 , could have captained pakistan in 100 test matches ( had he improved as a batsman ofcourse). He only scored in asia in LOI cricket , to his credit in test cricket he had two tons in australia but overall was an average batsman.

 

[JibranAnsari]

after him banned pakistan have played 70 test matches (30 won 28 lost) , salman butt would have played 100 test matches by now.

 

[TeymurBlake]

Salman Butt could have been a great player for Pakistan. He was looking solid in ODI and started doing well in T20 as well. Starting to build a really good test career as well.

 

[RyanRyan10]

Would have been averaging in low 30s in both tests and odi
Dropped from all forms 2-3 years back with fans demanding his comeback for the Aus torunas he had done well in Aus in the past

 

[topspin]

Salman Butt was in the ascendancy after some solid performances in 2009 - 2010 where he was the team's top scorer in the Australia tour, 2010 WT20 (3rd highest scorer in the event) and against Australia in England.

He was sorely missed in the 2011 WC and at his loss we had to settle for an inferior replacement in Hafeez. If it wasn't for his lack of morals I'm pretty sure he would have scored 20 test tons and earned 100 test caps averaging in the low to mid 40s taking full advantage of the easy batting conditions in UAE.

During the 2010 WT20 he averaged 44.60 at a strike rate of over 130 and was well on his way to becoming a world class LOI batsman. By now he probably would have sealed his spot in Pakisan's all time LOI XI in partnership with Saeed Anwar.

For me he was an even bigger loss than Asif (and Amir's 6 years out of the game) to Pakistan cricket because he was a natural captain - tactically and as a leader of men. It's unfortunate that Pakistan had to resort to a timid, mediocre and defensive skipper as his replacement.

 

[Rana]

TBH the guy could bat and was a treat to watch on song. He was our only modern ODI opener and I think he was smart enough to realise that he must maintain a healthy strike rate of 100-110 so that the other players can bat around him and Pakistan could get a defendable score every game.He showed that he is a good player in the T20 wc that took place in the West Indies.