What's new

Where would you rank Ravi Ashwin if he has at least 1 good tour to SA and Eng before retirement?

K

KP From India

Tape Ball Regular
Joined
Jun 30, 2017
Runs
464
Ashwin has excellent stats in Asia and Wi.
Has been decent in Eng. Improving avg in Aus after unsuccesful previous tours.
Assuming 2 good series in Eng and Nz(something like 13-15 wickets@ 27-28 in 3-4 matches) before finishing, where would you rank him if that happens?
 
Top 10 greatest spinners in last 50 years:-

1. Warne
2. Murali
3. Kumble
4. Ashwin
5. Saqlain

:inti
 
Isn't Ashwin better than Kumble considering his improving overseas record and more destructive at home and asia?
 
Ashwin is definitely better than Kumble.
I remember when Kumble took fifers away from home his figures were usually like 5-160 or 6-200.
Also Kumble wasn't as dominant as Ashwin in Subcontinent
 
Not saying Ash would have had Murali's record, but 2 factors benifitted Murali largely
1. 176 wickets in 22 tests vs Zim and Ban. I know Ash has same record vs Wi and Sl, atleast on paper they are better batting units than previous Ban and Zim teams.
2. Eng batting in 90's till mid 2000s was a little better than minnow level. After that they had Cook, Strauss, Peterson, Bell, Root etc.
 
Ashwin is already one of the Test greats. I rate him over Saqlain. In the last 30 years, Ashwin ranks 2nd for me after Muralitharan.

Lyon has a good record as well but he doesn't seem to have the kind of impact that Ashwin does.

Saqlain was rated highly because he was a pioneer of doosra and in his era, offspin was at its lowest ebb. So he sort of became the face of offspin bowling. He was very good in odis but just above average in tests. Ashwin surpasses him easily in Tests.
 
KP From India said:
Not saying Ash would have had Murali's record, but 2 factors benifitted Murali largely
1. 176 wickets in 22 tests vs Zim and Ban. I know Ash has same record vs Wi and Sl, atleast on paper they are better batting units than previous Ban and Zim teams.
2. Eng batting in 90's till mid 2000s was a little better than minnow level. After that they had Cook, Strauss, Peterson, Bell, Root etc.
Click to expand...

Murali had to bowl to a strong Indian team and Pakistani team.

Plus he was the main bowler outside Asia with Vaas for support.

Murali is Murali.
 
Ashwin is one of all the time great off-spinners. Brilliant.
 
KP From India said:
Not saying Ash would have had Murali's record, but 2 factors benifitted Murali largely
1. 176 wickets in 22 tests vs Zim and Ban. I know Ash has same record vs Wi and Sl, atleast on paper they are better batting units than previous Ban and Zim teams.
2. Eng batting in 90's till mid 2000s was a little better than minnow level. After that they had Cook, Strauss, Peterson, Bell, Root etc.
Click to expand...

Interestingly if you remove both Murali & Warne's wickets against Bang & Zim (who Warne played a grand total of 3 tests against) their Test stats are almost identical.
 
If Ashwin can do as the OP says, I'd rank him in the next bracket behind Warne & Murali.

Perhaps just ahead of Lyon & equal to Kumble. If he has STRONG tours instead if just good, he'd leaves Kumble behind. And I am a big fan of Kumble the man & the cricketer.
 
Guess Ashwin's average in SENA post 2014-15 Aus tour?

27.17 as of now. :))

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...5;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling

This is after those gazzilion catches dropped in that SA test and Southampton fiasco (which he honestly shouldn't have played).

While he showed promise in SA, Eng and Aus last time....this time, he has been a revelation.

I expected him to suck in Adelaide 2nd innings. He didn't.

Same in Melbourne. He didn't.

Let's see how this plays out.

So far so good.

Meanwhile as I type, Siraj gets a wicket.

MASSSSSSS. :D
 
If he gets a good tour of England, I will say he is the best Indian spinner of my lifetime.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
Guess Ashwin's average in SENA post 2014-15 Aus tour?

27.17 as of now. :))

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...5;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling

This is after those gazzilion catches dropped in that SA test and Southampton fiasco (which he honestly shouldn't have played).

While he showed promise in SA, Eng and Aus last time....this time, he has been a revelation.

I expected him to suck in Adelaide 2nd innings. He didn't.

Same in Melbourne. He didn't.

Let's see how this plays out.

So far so good.

Meanwhile as I type, Siraj gets a wicket.

MASSSSSSS. :D
Click to expand...

He's been amazing.One thing those numbers don't tell is that he gets main batsmen.I hope he keeps getting Smith :P

About time we play both him and Jaddu in all away Tests and not competing for one spot
 
Smith getting out to him cheaply at home is strange, not sure what's wrong with him. Good for India and Ashwin though!
 
Robert said:
If he gets a good tour of England, I will say he is the best Indian spinner of my lifetime.
Click to expand...

I do rate Ashwin highly but don't you think this is the worst phase as for batsmens ability of playing spin .
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
Murali had to bowl to a strong Indian team and Pakistani team.

Plus he was the main bowler outside Asia with Vaas for support.

Murali is Murali.
Click to expand...

I am not saying Ashwin is better than Murali but Ashwin has his upper hand in certain ways.

Murali and Sanga benefitted from playing a lot of minnows. Something Warne or Kumble or Ashwin didn't, neither did Sachin Lara Ponting or Dravid.

If you see Murali didn't play in SA post 2002 or the fact that he chucked.
 
wrongun said:
Interestingly if you remove both Murali & Warne's wickets against Bang & Zim (who Warne played a grand total of 3 tests against) their Test stats are almost identical.
Click to expand...

Thats why Warne is the greatest ever.
 
jusarrived said:
I do rate Ashwin highly but don't you think this is the worst phase as for batsmens ability of playing spin .
Click to expand...

Batters in that era had smaller blades so don't you think it was easy to get them out compared to today also uncovered pitches...
 
jeeteshssaxena said:
1.Murali(if you include him he has to be no. 1
2.Warne

3.Ashwin
4.Kumble
5.Bedi
Click to expand...

Murali's stats are a bit inflated by minnow bashing. So, not necessary that he has to be no.1 if I am considering him.

Ashwin is more skillful than Kumble but will just wait a bit more before we put him ahead of Kumble. He is certainly on the way.
 
cricketjoshila said:
I am not saying Ashwin is better than Murali but Ashwin has his upper hand in certain ways.

Murali and Sanga benefitted from playing a lot of minnows. Something Warne or Kumble or Ashwin didn't, neither did Sachin Lara Ponting or Dravid.

If you see Murali didn't play in SA post 2002 or the fact that he chucked.
Click to expand...

Yeah overall tally does get affected by it when you can't play minnows a lot.

Ash against Bangladesh, Zimbabwe would be crazy lol.

The fastest to 400 wickets...500 wickets...etc does get impacted.

Murali has amazing stats against almost all teams in all venues (barring a couple of exceptions).

As for Murali's action, I have a little bit of a different view.

90s Murali was clean. Based on observing footage very deeply. The ball he got called out for chucking by Hair was clean as hell.

Post 2000 Murali, I am not too sure.

Too bad we will never know the answer.
 
Saurav said:
He's been amazing.One thing those numbers don't tell is that he gets main batsmen.I hope he keeps getting Smith :P

About time we play both him and Jaddu in all away Tests and not competing for one spot
Click to expand...

Yeah.....Remember my theory about playing Ash & Jaddu together in overseas tour?

I have been bleating about it for like 7 years now. Haha.

I could give a test by test breakdown from SA Joberg 2013...and show India would have won more games had we done that.

Maybe I will do a thread on that later.

It will be good to test that theory here.

2 caveats tho:

1. Batsman have to score something for this to work. lol.

2. Pacers have to give bare minimum support (and I am blown away by how good our pacers have been inspite of losing Ishan and Shami).
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
Yeah.....Remember my theory about playing Ash & Jaddu together in overseas tour?

I have been bleating about it for like 7 years now. Haha.

I could give a test by test breakdown from SA Joberg 2013...and show India would have won more games had we done that.

Maybe I will do a thread on that later.

It will be good to test that theory here.

2 caveats tho:

1. Batsman have to score something for this to work. lol.

2. Pacers have to give bare minimum support (and I am blown away by how good our pacers have been inspite of losing Ishan and Shami).
Click to expand...

This is where I also like Pant.Allows us to play 5 bowlers without losing much on batting

Our batsmen need to step up now.Specially Rahane
 
Murli should not be included in this list , his action was not right, Warne is the best spinner all time.
 
EqTlasaXUAEjLRr
 
He is among the top two off spin bowler in his own time. Lyon has been equally good or better. At home he has some time out bowled by Jadeja. Definitely not an ATG bowler.
 
Pakhs said:
He is among the top two off spin bowler in his own time. Lyon has been equally good or better. At home he has some time out bowled by Jadeja. Definitely not an ATG bowler.
Click to expand...

Lyon is even worse. He averages 62 in this series. Ash averages 28 in this series and outperformed him in his own backyard.
 
Last edited:
I think even without an amazing series in South Africa or England we can safely conclude Ashwin is one of the greatest spinners to have played the game.
 
Ab Fan said:
Lyon is even worse. He averages 62 in this series. Ash averages 28 in this series and outperformed him in his own backyard.
Click to expand...

This is only one series, Lyon has bowled better say in England. Both are not ATG level spinners. Aswhin has been a good bowler and these two have been only 2 off spinners in the last decade or so. Ashwin performances at home has been put into perspective by Jadeja success in the same period who had very often out bowled him.

Warne or Murali almost never got out bowled by any other spinner except maybe one very few exceptional circumstances.
 
DeadlyVenom said:
I think even without an amazing series in South Africa or England we can safely conclude Ashwin is one of the greatest spinners to have played the game.
Click to expand...

This cant be true, He has had many issue and flaws, he never really made it big in LOI formats and even in tests never really gave consistent performance except at home where also he has been out bowled by jadeja many times.
 
Pakhs said:
This is only one series, Lyon has bowled better say in England. Both are not ATG level spinners. Aswhin has been a good bowler and these two have been only 2 off spinners in the last decade or so. Ashwin performances at home has been put into perspective by Jadeja success in the same period who had very often out bowled him.

Warne or Murali almost never got out bowled by any other spinner except maybe one very few exceptional circumstances.
Click to expand...

Ashwin has outperformed Lyon in Australia and Herath in Sri Lanka :inti.
 
Pakhs said:
This cant be true, He has had many issue and flaws, he never really made it big in LOI formats and even in tests never really gave consistent performance except at home where also he has been out bowled by jadeja many times.
Click to expand...

Jadeja himself is likely to go down as test great.
 
MacGill Vs Warne

----

The two legspinners have played together in 16 Tests - five of them at Sydney - and Stuart MacGill has taken 82 wickets at 22.11 in those matches. Shane Warne has taken 74 wickets at 29.57 in the same games. MacGill shades Warne on strike rate, too - a wicket every 41.7 balls in those matches, while Warne struck once every 56.6 balls.

----

Warne was outbowled by MacGill when they played together, but that has absolutely nothing to do with how good Warne was over his career. Warne's record can be seen in isolation.
 
jusarrived said:
I do rate Ashwin highly but don't you think this is the worst phase as for batsmens ability of playing spin .
Click to expand...

Yes. Of the England boys I would say only Root, Stokes and Moeen are good players of spin.
 
jusarrived said:
I do rate Ashwin highly but don't you think this is the worst phase as for batsmens ability of playing spin .
Click to expand...

I think the best phase for batsman ability of playing spin was in 90s-2000s decade. Australia, India, Sri Lanka and Pakistan i.e. four teams had really great player of spin bowling.
 
Buffet said:
MacGill Vs Warne

----

The two legspinners have played together in 16 Tests - five of them at Sydney - and Stuart MacGill has taken 82 wickets at 22.11 in those matches. Shane Warne has taken 74 wickets at 29.57 in the same games. MacGill shades Warne on strike rate, too - a wicket every 41.7 balls in those matches, while Warne struck once every 56.6 balls.

----

Warne was outbowled by MacGill when they played together, but that has absolutely nothing to do with how good Warne was over his career. Warne's record can be seen in isolation.
Click to expand...

In another side, MacGill would have 400 test wickets.

Players were so glad to get away from Wayne’s end that they took risks against MacGill.

Similarly with Monty and Swann in India. Swann screwed the pressure down, the batters thought Monty was going to bowl a four-ball and they went for him harder.
 
Robert said:
Yes. Of the England boys I would say only Root, Stokes and Moeen are good players of spin.
Click to expand...

Moeen was exposed ruthlessly by Lyon. Hes a good player of spin in the shorter formats but in tests hes not a good player of anything
 
Robert said:
In another side, MacGill would have 400 test wickets.

Players were so glad to get away from Wayne’s end that they took risks against MacGill.

Similarly with Monty and Swann in India. Swann screwed the pressure down, the batters thought Monty was going to bowl a four-ball and they went for him harder.
Click to expand...

Yes, agree here. That's the reason when MacGill played without Warne, his performance dipped. That's why looking at outbowled figures can be misleading. You have their entire career and you can compare it with history to see where they stand.

MacGill himself was a very good spinner. If Warne was not there, he would have had a long career.
 
Last edited:
He is probably the best spinner India has ever had. Add in his batting and he is a priceless commodity. If you add in fielding, Jadeja pips him comfortably but Ashwin will finish the career as a proper great.
 
Ab Fan said:
I think Ashwin is an ATG. What do you think [MENTION=134809]sensible-indian-fan[/MENTION]?
Click to expand...

Don't think he is an ATG spinner or all rounder.

Theres still time but injury is going to be his biggest worry.

If not for injuries, he could have defo been gunning for ATG.

Its the same script since 2018.

He starts well.

Gets injured.

Bowling dips.

Stats and impact gets affected.

SA 2018 I heard he had an issue with fingers. Tho I haven't checked this.

England 2018 with hips or groin.

Aus 2018 some related issue.

Inspite of that he averages 29 in SENA this cycle.

All because of a few bad games where he had to bowl injured.

If not for the injury, this cycle he could have averaged low 20s or even sub 20 in SENA..

Might sound crazy to believe but I can do a numbers breakdown (when free) if anyone wants to know.

Anyways... ATGs are made when impact performaces happen consistently.

The deliverables are not quite there to call him an ATG but he defo has the skills to get there.

Ironically, this one Aus tour has raised his stature in world cricket FAR MORE than 350 test wickets (at a ridiculous average) ever did.

If he closes out the game in Gabba (which he potentially could if he is fit as bounce suits him), then it would be a special special bowling performance.
 
Last edited:
According to the standards some people have for ATG spinners, only Murali and Warne (or back in the day guys like O'Reilly and Laker) would make the cut. The bar has to be a bit lower for spinners.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

BouncerGuy
“If players focus on team success, milestones naturally follow, and the team will celebrate them": Mike Hesson
Replies
22
Views
2K
mominsaigol
mominsaigol
BouncerGuy
PSL 9 Review: “If you can't swing for the stands, are you really hitting sixes bro?”
Replies
33
Views
3K
aqibcric
A
MenInG
PSL 8 Review: From "Taking the game deep" to talk of "Strategic Retirement of those with 120 SRs"
Replies
9
Views
3K
MenInG
MenInG
MenInG
Pakistan cannot win the ICC World Cup 2023 as they are not mentally and physically strong enough to defeat India, England, Australia and New Zealand
2
Replies
145
Views
10K
FearlessRoar
FearlessRoar
MenInG
"The inability to select the right players for the right format has hurt us": Azhar Mahmood
Replies
13
Views
3K
BunnyRabbit
B
Back
Top