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Which is more dangerous for global peace: demagogic leaders or their unquestioning followers?

Which is more dangerous: demagogic leaders or their unquestioning followers?

  • Demagogues

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The Bald Eagle

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Demagogue don't even hesitate a moment to fan the flames of hostility and bitterness among populace for their own personal and political gains. But even worse is at times, the deplorable condition of their apologetic and blind followers who left no stone unturned to defend even the gaffe and cynical statements coming out from the mouth of their leaders.

So in your opinion who are more dangerous for the global and local communities: these idiotic demagogues or their either imbecile or utterly gullible followers?

PS: Demagogue is a political leader who seeks support by appealing to the desires and prejudices of ordinary people rather than by using rational argument.
 
I have to say their unquestionable followers are more dangerous.

Leaders are nothing without the followers.
I think even demagogues are not aware of the level of dumbness of some of their gullible or rather stubborn followers. They make psychos look normal.
 
Indeed.

I think we can see that on PP forum as well (BJP posters).

:qdkcheeky
You are right brother... Sometimes some posters defend some very odd statements by their leaders or party members. Infact, majority of posters from the same community deep inside negate their such fervent approach.

So demagogues should be punished severely too because they don't realize what kind of people they are grooming
 
I think there are three factors we need to consider.

First is the importance of social norms. This has been emphasised in a recent work by Vicente Valentim, The Normalisation of the Radical Right. He argues that in last decade or so, it is not so much an increase in a preference for radical right views but rather a breakdown of norms that kept these views subdued. As he says, “Humans are social beings, and their behaviour does not happen in isolation.”

The second factor is a specific context which can give rise to feelings of resentment and activate dormant or latent sentiments. The third factor is the skill of the demagogue in channelling the disaffection and anger of a certain group of people towards an outlet. The skilled demagogue can give the sense of generalised resentment a narrative, a shape.

As should be clear from the above, the demagogue does not act in a vacuum. The objectives, the motives, the ideas of the demagogue need to be set against the external conditions and circumstances that may encourage or neutralise those aims.

If this is all a bit abstract, then let’s look at a concrete example through the work of Ian Kershaw, the author of the magisterial two part biography of Hitler.

In the first part, Hubris, Kershaw emphasises the importance of context:

“The First World War made Hitler possible. Without the experience of war, the humiliation of defeat, and the upheaval of revolution the failed artist and social drop-out would not have discovered what to do with his life by entering politics and finding his métier as a propagandist and beerhall demagogue. And without the trauma of war, defeat and revolution, without the political radicalization of German society that this trauma brought about, the demagogue would have been without an audience for his raucous, hate-filled message. The legacy of the lost war provided the conditions in which the paths of Hitler and the German people began to cross. Without the war, a Hitler on the Chancellor’s seat that had been occupied by Bismarck would have been unthinkable.”

In the second part, Nemesis, Kershaw points to Hitler’s ability to channel grievances towards a particular direction:

“His success as a demagogue lay in his ability to say what the disaffected masses wanted to hear, to speak their language – to capture and exploit a psychology of despair and invest it with new hope for a phoenix-like resurgence of the nation. He was able as no one else to give voice to popular hatreds, resentments, hopes, and expectations. He spoke more stridently, more vehemently, more expressively and appealingly than any of those with a similar ideological message. He was the mouthpiece of the nationalist masses at a decisive time of all-embracing national crisis.”

We see in the above the three factors coming together. Social norms had broken down in the midst of War; German society had been radicalised by the experience of war; Hitler’s ‘talent’ was to be able to channel the sense of anger and bitterness, to give it a shape, a story, to find scapegoats and to offer the promise of rebirth.
 
The second factor is a specific context which can give rise to feelings of resentment and activate dormant or latent sentiments. The third factor is the skill of the demagogue in channelling the disaffection and anger of a certain group of people towards an outlet. The skilled demagogue can give the sense of generalised resentment a narrative, a shape.
Unfortunately same is happening in subcontinent, where a demagogue continue to rule although with truncated majority now.
 
The unquestioning followers of leader definitely, that’s why religion is extremely dangerous, we need to question religion and religious leaders continuously.
 
I think there are three factors we need to consider.

First is the importance of social norms. This has been emphasised in a recent work by Vicente Valentim, The Normalisation of the Radical Right. He argues that in last decade or so, it is not so much an increase in a preference for radical right views but rather a breakdown of norms that kept these views subdued. As he says, “Humans are social beings, and their behaviour does not happen in isolation.”

The second factor is a specific context which can give rise to feelings of resentment and activate dormant or latent sentiments. The third factor is the skill of the demagogue in channelling the disaffection and anger of a certain group of people towards an outlet. The skilled demagogue can give the sense of generalised resentment a narrative, a shape.

As should be clear from the above, the demagogue does not act in a vacuum. The objectives, the motives, the ideas of the demagogue need to be set against the external conditions and circumstances that may encourage or neutralise those aims.

If this is all a bit abstract, then let’s look at a concrete example through the work of Ian Kershaw, the author of the magisterial two part biography of Hitler.

In the first part, Hubris, Kershaw emphasises the importance of context:

“The First World War made Hitler possible. Without the experience of war, the humiliation of defeat, and the upheaval of revolution the failed artist and social drop-out would not have discovered what to do with his life by entering politics and finding his métier as a propagandist and beerhall demagogue. And without the trauma of war, defeat and revolution, without the political radicalization of German society that this trauma brought about, the demagogue would have been without an audience for his raucous, hate-filled message. The legacy of the lost war provided the conditions in which the paths of Hitler and the German people began to cross. Without the war, a Hitler on the Chancellor’s seat that had been occupied by Bismarck would have been unthinkable.”

In the second part, Nemesis, Kershaw points to Hitler’s ability to channel grievances towards a particular direction:

“His success as a demagogue lay in his ability to say what the disaffected masses wanted to hear, to speak their language – to capture and exploit a psychology of despair and invest it with new hope for a phoenix-like resurgence of the nation. He was able as no one else to give voice to popular hatreds, resentments, hopes, and expectations. He spoke more stridently, more vehemently, more expressively and appealingly than any of those with a similar ideological message. He was the mouthpiece of the nationalist masses at a decisive time of all-embracing national crisis.”

We see in the above the three factors coming together. Social norms had broken down in the midst of War; German society had been radicalised by the experience of war; Hitler’s ‘talent’ was to be able to channel the sense of anger and bitterness, to give it a shape, a story, to find scapegoats and to offer the promise of rebirth.
This is the most roundabout and mind-numbing response.

Succinctly. look no further than the effect of unquestioning islamic demagoguery. Therein lies the danger.
 
If we define a demagogue as a political rabble-rouser who appeals to passions and prejudices of the people, then we should also reflect on the nature of political authority in the modern world.

Though demagogues have always been around, demagogues as political leaders take on particular salience in an age where it is often claimed that sovereignty resides with the people.

To understand this we need to appreciate the nature of political authority in the “pre-modern” period.

As the historian, Alan Strathern, puts it: “For the great majority of human history, we have been governed by sacred kings: individuals who claim that their right to rule depends not on their relationship with the people, but on their relationship with the divine.” (https://aeon.co/essays/the-sacred-monarchies-that-survive-into-the-postmodern-age).

For a specific example, we may take the Mughal Empire and the brilliant book by Azfar Moin (https://cup.columbia.edu/book/the-millennial-sovereign/9780231160360). As Moin shows, while of course the foundations of Mughal rule rested partly on its intricate bureaucracy as well as on its ability mobilise force, there was also a more ‘enchanted’ vision which legitimised the Mughal rulers’ claim to power. There was a widespread belief in the existence of unseen cosmic forces emerging from hidden realms that shaped life on earth and could be influenced through the miraculous powers and esoteric knowledge of Sufis and Kings. The Mughal king was, therefore, viewed not only as a “political leader” dealing with day to day worldly matters, but a “spiritual chief” sustaining cosmic order, the “king of kings and the saint of saints.”

In modern period the nature of political authority has changed profoundly. It now rests on the idea of popular and democratic will. To quote Strathern again: “Religion obviously plays a powerful political role today, but this can blind us to recognising how profoundly that role has been transformed. Successful political leaders must claim their legitimacy through the language of demotic will, national prowess and material progress, not from their innate capacities as rainmakers, embodied gods or millennial beings. This is a relatively recent development in human history. Our ideas about what political authority is for, where it comes from, and how it operates have been profoundly secularised.”

So in the modern period where authority is said to ultimately rest with the demos, there is a particular incentive and opportunity for the populist political demagogue to agitate and appeal to the emotion and power of the masses in particular contexts.
 
How duplicitous of some posters here to turn the course of debate towards other religions...ok then but not forget which political party and their followers topped the chart in separating hate in 2024 alone.

Go no further, BJP leaders vitriol is enough to open any unbiased person's eye.

Be it 'infiltrators' speech by Modi in Rajasthan...which borders Pakistan not Bangladesh. Specifically made to win our Hindu masses by purveying/ spreading hatred against Muslims and it's defense by BJP supporters.

Or Modi's comment about being some super being or prophet like figure and it's hilarious defense by his supporters as also exposed by @Bewal Express and @HalBass9 in the relevant thread.

Or be the mind boggling defense of threat to massacre 200000 individuals by flawed arguments...
 
How duplicitous of some posters here to turn the course of debate towards other religions...ok then but not forget which political party and their followers topped the chart in separating hate in 2024 alone.

Go no further, BJP leaders vitriol is enough to open any unbiased person's eye.

Be it 'infiltrators' speech by Modi in Rajasthan...which borders Pakistan not Bangladesh. Specifically made to win our Hindu masses by purveying/ spreading hatred against Muslims and it's defense by BJP supporters.

Or Modi's comment about being some super being or prophet like figure and it's hilarious defense by his supporters as also exposed by @Bewal Express in the relevant thread.

Or be the mind boggling defense of threat to massacre 200000 individuals by flawed arguments...
I remember that well. We never really got to the bottom of what they claimed the fascist to be.
 
In case anybody missed that iconic Modi biological wonder speech:

"Pehle jab tak maa zinda thi mujhe lagta tha shayad mujhe biologically janm diya gaya hai. Maa ke jaane ke baad, een saare anubhavon ko mai jod kar dekhta hoon toh mai convince ho chukka hoon ki parmatma ne mujhe bheja hai (Till my mother was alive, I had the impression that perhaps my birth was a biological one. After her demise when I view after assimilating all the experiences, I am convinced that God has sent me),” Modi is heard saying in an interview to News 18.

“Main kuch nahi hoon ek instrument hoon, jo ishwar ne mere roop me mujhse lena tai kiya hai aur isliye main jab bhi kuch karta hoon to manta hoon ishwar mujhse karwana chahta hai (I am nothing, only an instrument through which God has decided to achieve and so whenever I do something I believe that God wants to get it done),”
 
Lol... isn't this your intellectual dishonesty, we are talking about demagogue here...I guess you are not aware of this term
Are there bigger demagogues than those who claim to have a direct line to god? Are there people more dangerous than those gullible enough to believe that?
 
Are there bigger demagogues than those who claim to have a direct line to god? Are there people more dangerous than those gullible enough to believe that?
Aw...lol playing again the atheist card, first account for your atheist friend in germany
 
Are you talking about hitler? This will help you.

"Gott mit uns" scribed into the nazi uniform?

Anyway you are deflecting as usual
The ATHEIST guy who run down on people in a Christmas market. Although weren't Soviets atheist too? 🤔.

But without derailing, I will ask you to answer about the actions of Shri modi g
 
Religion is most dangerous aspect to Global Peace.
Less religion esp in the constitution of the countries help them grow .
US and China are good examples for large population.
 
The ATHEIST guy who run down on people in a Christmas market.
☪️ c guy avoiding charges is SA pretending to be atheist?
Although weren't Soviets atheist too? 🤔.
There are good and bad actors. It takes religion for good actors to carry out bad actions?
But without derailing, I will ask you to answer about the actions of Shri modi g
Why don’t list the actions that you are referring to?
 
Modi is heard saying in an interview to News 18.

“Main kuch nahi hoon ek instrument hoon, jo ishwar ne mere roop me mujhse lena tai kiya hai aur isliye main jab bhi kuch karta hoon to manta hoon ishwar mujhse karwana chahta hai (I am nothing, only an instrument through which God has decided to achieve and so whenever I do something I believe that God wants to get it done),”
Isn't this the premise of all prophets? islamic or otherwise.
 
Delusion people's who are living in own delusion World are most dangerous because they don't know about reality.

:kp
 
Why don’t list the actions that you are referring to?
Check the trailer 👇
====
Human Rights Watch analyzed all 173 campaign speeches by Modi after the election code of conduct took effect on March 16. The code forbids appealing to “communal feelings for securing votes.” In at least 110 speeches, Modi made Islamophobic remarks apparently intended to undermine the political opposition, which he said only promoted Muslim rights, and to foster fear among the majority Hindu community through disinformation.



 
Have you answered mine yet?

Apparently you are projecting own diversionary discourse onto others.

Let's hear your Yes or No first. Plz.
I know you won't answer, because you never can't. I dare.

And this thread is about demagogue, first thing. Secondly everybody knows that YES Prophets are sent by God. So what else answer was you expecting from me. Now answer mine question with Yes or No.
 
I know you won't answer, because you never can't. I dare.

And this thread is about demagogue, first thing. Secondly everybody knows that YES Prophets are sent by God. So what else answer was you expecting from me. Now answer mine question with Yes or No.
Know? how can anyone "know"? One can only be gullible enough to believe in a fairy tale

Any demagogue can claim to be sent by god of his choice and he will have cult following.

eg. joseph smith
and Mormonism is recognized as a religion

Ron hubbard and scientology

same applies to all religions and their prophets
 
I know you won't answer, because you never can't. I dare.

And this thread is about demagogue, first thing. Secondly everybody knows that YES Prophets are sent by God. So what else answer was you expecting from me. Now answer mine question with Yes or No.
everybody knows? Where do you get this ego from to default others as accepting your opinion. And...you dare? Calm down internet tough guy!

That said, pray tell the difference when an arab dweller proclaimed to be god-linked vs. modi's inflated assertion?

By accepting the former and outrightly rejecting latter, you are epitomizing demagoguery in muslim community. You are the danger.
 
What did you find wrong in my statement ?
Its is great advertisesement for the idiocy of religions

I was simply pointing out the hypocrisy of islamists. Modi advocating for hindus and hinduism = bigotry

while you think wiehing merry chritsmas is haram. wanted to get his opinion on the demagogue who taught you think that way
 
That said, pray tell the difference when an arab dweller proclaimed to be god-linked vs. modi's inflated assertion?

By accepting the former and outrightly rejecting latter, you are epitomizing demagoguery in muslim community. You are the danger.
Very simple, A Prophet is someone sent by God to convey his message to the masses who does this without any monetary or political quid pro quo while a demagogue literally exploit people's emotions for his political gains.

And I am glad that you acknowledge that Modi is a politician with "inflated assertions" as it is a typical attribute of a demagogue.

And plz check Dawah thread too.
 
Lol we are approaching 2025 and there are still some people who claim 200000 Muslims to be slaughtered for a cow. Even when their own community member ask them to stop this erratic monopoly. But in the end, the savages are those who show them mirror.

No doubt now that extremist followers are more dangerous for the world then their political manipulators.
 
Lol we are approaching 2025 and there are still some people who claim 200000 Muslims to be slaughtered for a cow.

Why are the Cows being deliberately killed in the first place in India despite being well aware of how sacred it is for Hindus ( and has been happening for centuries ) ? You want to answer that first or the sequence of events transpire in the reverse order in your mind ?
 
Very simple, A Prophet is someone sent by God to convey his message to the masses who does this without any monetary or political quid pro quo while a demagogue literally exploit people's emotions for his political gains.

And I am glad that you acknowledge that Modi is a politician with "inflated assertions" as it is a typical attribute of a demagogue.

And plz check Dawah thread too.
These guys are hindus masquerading as muslims, they are here solely to troll and denigrate muslims. Surely it must be apparent now..
 
Its is great advertisesement for the idiocy of religions

I was simply pointing out the hypocrisy of islamists. Modi advocating for hindus and hinduism = bigotry

while you think wiehing merry chritsmas is haram. wanted to get his opinion on the demagogue who taught you think that way

Do you think Jesus was born on that particular day ? If I do not support falsehood I am bigot ! What kind of narrative is this?
 
Why are the Cows being deliberately killed in the first place in India despite being well aware of how sacred it is for Hindus ( and has been happening for centuries ) ? You want to answer that first or the sequence of events transpire in the reverse order in your mind ?

It is killed to eat . No Muslim is forcing hindus to eat , they have right to hold that sacred , but across the globe people eat that , its pointless to object to this.

But recently I noticed several hindu speakers also speaking against eating any kind of meat like goat , chicken , fish etc.
 
These guys are hindus masquerading as muslims, they are here solely to troll and denigrate muslims. Surely it must be apparent now..
You are correct , I have noticed that in other platforms as well. Also , many hindus hide behind mask of being atheist as well , so that you cannot question about their faith , and they can cleverly avoid being questioned , because they are not comfortable with that.
 
It is killed to eat . No Muslim is forcing hindus to eat , they have right to hold that sacred , but across the globe people eat that , its pointless to object to this.

So you are saying too bad if Hindus consider Cows as sacred. deal with it ... not our problem ... right ?
 
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Very simple, A Prophet is someone sent by God to convey his message to the masses who does this without any monetary or political quid pro quo while a demagogue literally exploit people's emotions for his political gains.
prophet did occupy political head of table, and indeed set rules matching his benefit.

He neither went to bed hungry nor he participated in any wars himself.

In worldly terms, his rise was phenomenal from an shepherd to the one in charge of a doctrine. Similar from chaiwala to pm modi.

I ask again, what is the difference for either purported "godsend"?
 
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So you are saying too bad if Hindus consider Cows as sacred. deal with it ... not our problem ... right ?

I am saying that people kill cow to eat that. If it is an issue there needs to be prohibition in all states about slaughtering cows in public places , where majority is hindu. There needs to be proper restriction in places where alteration can occur , but blanket stoppage is not solution. There are non - muslims , who also eat beef , in India.
 
@The Bald Eagle If you keep answering people who are hindu or Ex Muslim in disguise , there questions will never end. There are probably 50000 books written against Islam , now even if I get 1000 years of life , I will not be able to answer them all. How many hindus or christians have answered questions posed here ?

So , it is only that they will keep asking questions , once you answer one , they will jump to next. Why only a Muslim has to answer about their faith ?

Why not Hindus and Christians here ? How many threads here are discussing Hindu and Christians beliefs and their Gods?
Why only discussion about quran and hadeeth , why not about Purans and srimadh bhagwatam , why life of muhammad only , who not adventures of Krishna ?
 
I am saying that people kill cow to eat that. If it is an issue there needs to be prohibition in all states about slaughtering cows in public places , where majority is hindu. There needs to be proper restriction in places where alteration can occur , but blanket stoppage is not solution. There are non - muslims , who also eat beef , in India.

yes it is a major issue In India for Hindus and EVERY single Muslim Knows it that cows are very sacred for Hindus( Much more than drawing the prophet if you want a comparison).

Yet it doesn't matter to the muslims at all and this has been going on for centuries.

So why are you expecting Hindus to not respond to this outrageous behavior by Muslims?
 
prophet did occupy political head of table, and indeed set rules matching his benefit.

He neither went to bed hungry nor he participated in any wars himself.

In worldly terms, his rise was phenomenal from an illiterate shepherd to the one in charge of a doctrine. Similar from chaiwala to pm modi.

I ask again, what is the difference for either purported "godsend"?
Or you dumb or acting like one, which Prophet are you talking about in case of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) he participated himself in 27 wars (Gazwas) and suffered serious wounds in battle of Uhad and faced severe attack in Battle of Hunain also

And on going to bed full, only a bigot with no knowledge of Islam could say this...he used to remain hungry for days in a week and that too regularly.

Check the following one Hadith among many
====
Ibn Abbas reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, would spend several nights in a row with an empty stomach, and his family would not find anything for dinner. Most of their bread was made from barley.

Source: Sunan al-Tirmidhī 2360

Grade: Sahih (authentic) according to Al-Albani

عَنْ ابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ قَالَ كَانَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ يَبِيتُ اللَّيَالِي الْمُتَتَابِعَةَ طَاوِيًا وَأَهْلُهُ لَا يَجِدُونَ عَشَاءً وَكَانَ أَكْثَرُ خُبْزِهِمْ خُبْزَ الشَّعِيرِ

2360 سنن الترمذي كتاب الزهد باب ما جاء في معيشة النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم وأهله

125 المحدث الألباني خلاصة حكم المحدث صحيح في مختصر الشمائل
 
Religious leaders who brainwash youth in the name of religions are more dangerous than any one else for the human existence.
 
Anyway did you see the YouTube video by an Indian Muslim scholars on WHY Prophet Muhammad PBUH married women known as Mothers of the Believers and what was the rationale behind it?

Plz have a look first before appearing prematurely to debate on said topic. @Farhan The Man.

Also the said video also mentions many restrictions which ONLY applied on Prophet Muhammad PBUH instead of all believers. Plz check
that too.

Videos on Post 555
Ok. You agree prophet applied a different yardstick. Benefitting from discretionary powers.

That is the premise of a demoguage ruler.
 
Ok. You agree prophet applied a different yardstick. Benefitting from discretionary powers.

That is the premise of a demoguage ruler.
Hahah... demagogue sets exceptions for himself while exclusive restrictions and permissions imposed by God is something entirely different.👍
 
@The Bald Eagle If you keep answering people who are hindu or Ex Muslim in disguise , there questions will never end. There are probably 50000 books written against Islam , now even if I get 1000 years of life , I will not be able to answer them all. How many hindus or christians have answered questions posed here ?

So , it is only that they will keep asking questions , once you answer one , they will jump to next. Why only a Muslim has to answer about their faith ?

Why not Hindus and Christians here ? How many threads here are discussing Hindu and Christians beliefs and their Gods?
Why only discussion about quran and hadeeth , why not about Purans and srimadh bhagwatam , why life of muhammad only , who not adventures of Krishna ?
You are right brother. I agree with your great piece of advice. I engage with people sincerely initially to spread them the message of Islam but when I realize that they are adamantly reluctant to it then I wish them luck and left on their own.
 
Hahahah....don't start this again man...we have already settled it before I guess. Brother Stewie was the protagonist
settled? so why don't tell your process?

All stewie said was that he believes from islamic teachings. basically circular reasoning.
 
Lol...it's just like saying how did you know you exist, may be you are in a dream or matrix....this way nothing can be established
I'm operating withing the space here and applying the rules of logic as known in this "existence"

Can you defend your approach? yes or no?
 
I'm operating withing the space here and applying the rules of logic as known in this "existence"

Can you defend your approach? yes or no?
Yes, and making the long story short for you.

Why whatever the Holy Quran says turns out to be true or can't be negated?

If you ponder over above question seriously then you have got your answer @rpant_gabba
 
Yes, and making the long story short for you.

Why whatever the Holy Quran says turns out to be true or can't be negated?

If you ponder over above question seriously then you have got your answer @rpant_gabba
example? there are other holy books which make the same claim. There are works from greeks and egyptians which are more accurate than any thing said in any holy books. does that make greek gods are egyptian gods superior to quranic god?
 
Yes, and making the long story short for you.

Why whatever the Holy Quran says turns out to be true or can't be negated?

If you ponder over above question seriously then you have got your answer @rpant_gabba

What do you mean cannot be negated ? The Quran says the Moon was split by the prophet. This is just not true at all. Never happened. Science tells you that.
 
Damn, Hindutva atheist and Hindutva bigots who wants to slaughter humans over a cow are trying to give lecture on humanity and religion to other.

Incredible.
 
What do you mean cannot be negated ? The Quran says the Moon was split by the prophet. This is just not true at all. Never happened. Science tells you that.

I’m almost certain that Science and conscious also says not to slaughter humans over a steak sandwich.
 
I’m almost certain that Science and conscious also says not to slaughter humans over a steak sandwich.

Correct. But that rule doesn't apply to animals. Ask me why and I will educate you for free ( Again ) lol
 
Last comment in this thread as there are too many Hindutvas who are in crusade to discredit Islam and call other humans as ‘animals’ while labeling everyone as insensitive to their beliefs.

It’s almost laughable how Hindutva atheists and Hindutva bigots supporters eagerly use science to attack Islam, driven purely by hatred for Muslims. Yet, the moment you call out Hindutva’s, not Hinduism’s, bigotry, they become deeply offended. Still waiting for the scientific method to justify why a grass eating, urine producing, bowel moving, and milk giving animal should be deemed divine by those who don’t share that belief.
 
You are right brother. I agree with your great piece of advice. I engage with people sincerely initially to spread them the message of Islam but when I realize that they are adamantly reluctant to it then I wish them luck and left on their own.

I appreciate your effort , but these people are not here to debate intellectually they are just here to troll , it is ingrained in their minds that by putting down Islam , it will make Hinduism or Christianity better.

The first question to discuss should always be existence of God , even if Muhammad SAW or any prophet were not there , it would not have mattered . Centre of Islam is existence of God.

All the other questions will be discussed after that.
 
yes it is a major issue In India for Hindus and EVERY single Muslim Knows it that cows are very sacred for Hindus( Much more than drawing the prophet if you want a comparison).

Yet it doesn't matter to the muslims at all and this has been going on for centuries.

So why are you expecting Hindus to not respond to this outrageous behavior by Muslims?

There is No picture of Muhammad , so what you are drawing is wrong portrayal.

No where I said it is a major issue , I recognise the cultural issue, that is why I said slaughter house in hindu areas should be closed or shifted.
 
Last comment in this thread as there are too many Hindutvas who are in crusade to discredit Islam and call other humans as ‘animals’ while labeling everyone as insensitive to their beliefs.

It’s almost laughable how Hindutva atheists and Hindutva bigots supporters eagerly use science to attack Islam, driven purely by hatred for Muslims. Yet, the moment you call out Hindutva’s, not Hinduism’s, bigotry, they become deeply offended. Still waiting for the scientific method to justify why a grass eating, urine producing, bowel moving, and milk giving animal should be deemed divine by those who don’t share that belief.

These are fake atheists , not real ones. They just claim to be atheist to hide and avoid answering.
 
These are fake atheists , not real ones. They just claim to be atheist to hide and avoid answering.
So what is your process for differentiating fake atheists from the real atheists?

any examples of real and fake atheists you can provide?
 
There is No picture of Muhammad , so what you are drawing is wrong portrayal.

No where I said it is a major issue , I recognise the cultural issue, that is why I said slaughter house in hindu areas should be closed or shifted.

You dont understand do you ?

Cows are sacred for Hindus and Every single Muslim in India knows it. Therefore the expectation is that they cant be harmed AT ALL. PERIOD.

So now tell me why Muslims have any business harming cows and then even well educated posters here expect nothing but civilized considerations for such rogue animals. And before you say anything ... be aware that this in-your-face belligerent bigotry has been going on for CENTURIES.

So whats your explanation ?
 
You dont understand do you ?

Cows are sacred for Hindus and Every single Muslim in India knows it. Therefore the expectation is that they cant be harmed AT ALL. PERIOD.

So now tell me why Muslims have any business harming cows and then even well educated posters here expect nothing but civilized considerations for such rogue animals. And before you say anything ... be aware that this in-your-face belligerent bigotry has been going on for CENTURIES.

So whats your explanation ?

Cow slaughter has been going on before 2014 , its not something new . If its a sacred animal , who is telling you to not keep that as sacred , but if you want everyone in India to stop eating it its not right , and then you are equating an animal with disrespecting a human.

If a person disrespects Hindu personalities , then that can be equated. Not an animal.

In Hinduism The animal with Shiv is Nandi , is a bull , so now that also becomes sacred , ganesh is associated with a mouse , so now that also is sacred. The issue is Hindus are worshiping almost everything , there is no limit to holy things !

If you say people should respect Hindu Gods , I accept that , there should be a law against people who disrespect them , not animals.
 
Cow slaughter has been going on before 2014 , its not something new . If its a sacred animal , who is telling you to not keep that as sacred , but if you want everyone in India to stop eating it its not right , and then you are equating an animal with disrespecting a human.

If a person disrespects Hindu personalities , then that can be equated. Not an animal.

In Hinduism The animal with Shiv is Nandi , is a bull , so now that also becomes sacred , ganesh is associated with a mouse , so now that also is sacred. The issue is Hindus are worshiping almost everything , there is no limit to holy things !

If you say people should respect Hindu Gods , I accept that , there should be a law against people who disrespect them , not animals.

The symbolism of a cow is India is because India is an agricultural society.

Traditionally people of Indian subcontinent primary profession was agriculture. So pretty much every house had cows/bulls/bufflaoes.

Based on regular human sensibilities if you have a pet in your house, it becomes kind of a family member and I would assume you wouldn’t cut it and eat it.

However not sure about this but I beleive for Bakrid you have to cut a goat after keeping it in the house for a few days. Have seen little innocent kids who get attached to cute baby goats absolutely bawling on the d-day .

Maybe it is just difference of cultural sensibilities. I mean cow is not literally divine or mother, just like some guy who is attached to a house pet cat/dog may consider it their kids etc. it’s more figurative. That’s the point.
 
The symbolism of a cow is India is because India is an agricultural society.

Traditionally people of Indian subcontinent primary profession was agriculture. So pretty much every house had cows/bulls/bufflaoes.

Based on regular human sensibilities if you have a pet in your house, it becomes kind of a family member and I would assume you wouldn’t cut it and eat it.

However not sure about this but I beleive for Bakrid you have to cut a goat after keeping it in the house for a few days. Have seen little innocent kids who get attached to cute baby goats absolutely bawling on the d-day .

Maybe it is just difference of cultural sensibilities. I mean cow is not literally divine or mother, just like some guy who is attached to a house pet cat/dog may consider it their kids etc. it’s more figurative. That’s the point.

See utility of cow is not question here , only a fool will deny that. But if you look into broader picture , there are many cows in India who roam around and do not have proper shelter , and is a mess for everyone. I am sure you have experienced that as well. They die on rods is pathetic conditions. This is also a reality. Not only cows , but other animals are used in agriculture.

No one is asking the person who has cow as pet or agriculture to cut and eat that . Muslims are not supposed to have alcohol , but that does not mean I will go around breaking all shops that sell alcohol. Maximum you can say is that do not have alcohol shops in muslim Majority areas.

That is why I said that in Hindu majority areas and temples , there should not be cow selling shops or maybe no non veg shops near temples as well , if temples are strict in that regard.
 
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No one is asking the person who has cow as pet or agriculture to cut and eat that . Muslims are not supposed to have alcohol , but that does not mean I will go around breaking all shops that sell alcohol. Maximum you can say is that do not have alcohol shops in muslim Majority areas.

Similarly many Indian states have beef legal and at least when I was growing up it wasn’t a big deal as a lot of Muslim areas had hotels that served beef or shops that sold beef. They still exist in Mumbai, Delhi, Bangalore and Hyderabad. I personally know a lot of Hindu friends who used to eat.

On top of that 5star hotels also serve beef.

The consumption of beef was never a big deal.

However you can’t point one side of the spectrum of some lunatic who might lynch someone over eating beef but at the same time you can’t be in denial that there are some Muslims who do go hurt and kill cows just to hurt Hindu sentiments. You are saying that doesn’t happen?

Read history, every invader be it Islamic or even European they used to hang carcasses of cows etc on temples to desecrate as a symbol of superiority.

It is not as simple or juvenile as one side loving/worshipoing cows and one side desperate to eat them.
 
@Justcrazy I do agree about your point on cows roaming on streets without proper nutrition or care. It is animal abuse. Same goes for street dogs etc too.
 
Cow slaughter has been going on before 2014 , its not something new .
If its a sacred animal , who is telling you to not keep that as sacred , but if you want everyone in India to stop eating it its not right , and then you are equating an animal with disrespecting a human.

These are religious beliefs that go back 1000s of years and you cannot interpret them based on Modern norms just like how Hindus do not question and ridicule the concept of no idol worship in Islam which is just absolutely unthinkable for Hindus and has been so for literally thousands of years and is infact not an issue for many popular world religions including Christianity, Buddhism, Jainism and ofcourse Hinduism. This does not mean that anyone should ridicule, question or worse spit on your beliefs which is what most Muslims do even in 2024.​

Another good example is the belief that Mohammad ascended to heaven on a winged horse.


If a person disrespects Hindu personalities , then that can be equated. Not an animal.

In Hinduism The animal with Shiv is Nandi , is a bull , so now that also becomes sacred , ganesh is associated with a mouse , so now that also is sacred. The issue is Hindus are worshiping almost everything , there is no limit to holy things !

If you say people should respect Hindu Gods , I accept that , there should be a law against people who disrespect them , not animals.

The answer is that the Cow is considered the abode of all Hindu gods per our beliefs. Hence the reverence. So what is stopping Muslims from respecting the beliefs of Hindus ?
 
Similarly many Indian states have beef legal and at least when I was growing up it wasn’t a big deal as a lot of Muslim areas had hotels that served beef or shops that sold beef. They still exist in Mumbai, Delhi, Bangalore and Hyderabad. I personally know a lot of Hindu friends who used to eat.

On top of that 5star hotels also serve beef.

The consumption of beef was never a big deal.

However you can’t point one side of the spectrum of some lunatic who might lynch someone over eating beef but at the same time you can’t be in denial that there are some Muslims who do go hurt and kill cows just to hurt Hindu sentiments. You are saying that doesn’t happen?

Read history, every invader be it Islamic or even European they used to hang carcasses of cows etc on temples to desecrate as a symbol of superiority.

It is not as simple or juvenile as one side loving/worshipoing cows and one side desperate to eat them.

If someone is caught hurting cow or for the matter any other animal catch the person and punish him the same way .
 
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