Which nation has produced the most Test greats?

[Tusker]

VVS better than Miandad? Inzy? Yousuf? hahaha

Absolutely ... take a look at their performances against the best teams of their times. VVS was a gun player against the best bowlers ... especially when the chips were down. Nothing compares to 281. Only Inzi in that list is perhaps a better player than VVS.

 

[Tusker]

Feel this Atg talk usually goes out of order , Junaids has still not shown up with his bait posts.

Most of us know who are the Atgs, at max there wil be disagreement on one or two from each country,still we keep trying to discuss this.

Summed up well.

People setting their own criterias to justify their biases and throwing up random names makes this discussion meaningless.

Exactly !! And then there is the problem of rose tinted glasses and nostalgia covering up for actual performances.In reality the modern ERA players should never be compared to the older ERA.

 

[Slog]

Kapil was never a zabardasti ki entry. Dont go just by stats.He had to lead the bowling attack and his stats got screwed a bit because he was carried for a longer time in a weak attack. He has got hundreds with the bat vs Windies attack. Not to forget a great captain.He was surely an ATG and perhaps a bigger stature to Dravid among his own countrymen.

Dont agree. I know full well Kapil's abilities and why he was special but i have always put him a rung below the other 3.

Ofc he had a great record against arguably the best team ever and for that i give him a lot of credit but that is not enough to pip him to the league of the other 3.

its like when odd Pakistani fans say that since YK has a terrific record and has runs and performances in pretty much every country is in the league of sachin, lara and ponting. However he clearly isnt but you can manipulate stats and make a case that he is.

 

[Slog]

Absolutely ... take a look at their performances against the best teams of their times. VVS was a gun player against the best bowlers ... especially when the chips were down. Nothing compares to 281. Only Inzi in that list is perhaps a better player than VVS.

LMAO at VVS being even in same league as Miandad

but of course you would think that mate

 

[Ab Fan]

Think guys like Graeme Smith, KP, Younis khan and Amla are the ones who can be argued off too as far as tests are concerned. However, for some reasons or the other they miss out.

 

[Tusker]

LMAO at VVS being even in same league as Miandad

but of course you would think that mate

LMAO and ofc you would think otherwise .... see very easy to play this game

 

[Tusker]

Think guys like Graeme Smith, KP, Younis khan and Amla are the ones who can be argued off too as far as tests are concerned. However, for some reasons or the other they miss out.

Its called bias ... had they played cricket about 20-30 yrs earlier they would be automatic entries even when 90% of PP hadn't seen them play. Its unbelievable how older era players have such a high reputation amongst fans. Perhaps only in cricket.

 

[Slog]

LMAO and ofc you would think otherwise .... see very easy to play this game

unfortunately your reputation her precedes you....

 

[Bhaijaan]

We don't need to do that. Besides you're never gonna come to consensus on setting a fixed criteria for judging greatness.

 

[bleaf27]

he most definitely is

By Pakistani standards not internationally.
His antics are more remembered than his limited batting skills

 

[Slog]

By Pakistani standards not internationally.
His antics are more remembered than his limited batting skills

the term limited batting skills applies to sehwag mate

 

[Chrish]

dont get triggered

stats and legacy are there to decide his reputation as a rung below the other 3

Learn to read.. no one has said he is top tier all-rounder; just like miandad isn't top tier bat or waqar top-tier bowler; doesn't mean they don't belong to discussion

Writing sarcastic/ inflamed post and then expecting polite response isn't a way to go

 

[Slog]

Learn to read.. no one has said he is top tier all-rounder; just like miandad isn't top tier bat or waqar top-tier bowler; doesn't mean they don't belong to discussion

Writing sarcastic/ inflamed post and then expecting polite response isn't a way to go

Kapil is not in the same league.

What few indian posters think doesn't change the majority world view

 

[Chrish]

Kapil is not in the same league.

What few indian posters think doesn't change the majority world view

I can prove the "world majority" (lol) hogwash in a second but that would require me to post some links that mods won't approve.

So majority of view here would be accurate statement which isn't at all surprising

 

[Slog]

I can prove the "world majority" (lol) hogwash in a second but that would require me to post some links that mods won't approve.

So majority of view here would be accurate statement which isn't at all surprising

You can keep living under the hole. Enjoy!

Kapil is a not in the same league. Atleast you admit he is a rung below

 

[Chrish]

You can keep living under the hole. Enjoy!

Kapil is a not in the same league. Atleast you admit he is a rung below

lol if you don't have anything constructive to add to the discussion, then why bother replying? Kapil doesn't belong here fine but what are the reasons he doesn't?

Learn to make a solid argument.

"You can keep living in a hole" these responses are getting tiring and lowers the bar of the forum

 

[Slog]

lol if you don't have anything constructive to add to the discussion, then why bother replying? Kapil doesn't belong here fine but what are the reasons he doesn't?

Learn to make a solid argument.

"You can keep living in a hole" these responses are getting tiring and lowers the bar of the forum

There is no need to make a solid argument because this is not a point open for discussion and has been dealt with and decided

Its been discussed to death here and on other forums and the conclusion is generally the same ie Kapil's place as below the tier of Imran, Botham and Hadlee is well established

You can refer to multiple threads detailing why.

 

[Arham_PakFan]

1.West Indies
2.Australia
3.India
4/5.Pakistan
4/5.England

 

[Ab Fan]

Dont agree. I know full well Kapil's abilities and why he was special but i have always put him a rung below the other 3.

Ofc he had a great record against arguably the best team ever and for that i give him a lot of credit but that is not enough to pip him to the league of the other 3.

its like when odd Pakistani fans say that since YK has a terrific record and has runs and performances in pretty much every country is in the league of sachin, lara and ponting. However he clearly isnt but you can manipulate stats and make a case that he is.

Other three are also ATGs no one questions that. SO is Kapil. Not all ATGs are at same level.

Sanga isnt at same level to SRT/ Ponting/Lara but is still an ATG.

As far as Kapil is concerned, he is at par with Botham as a bowler and inferior to him as a batsmen. Overall, he is inferior in tests but not much to claim that he is a level below him.

Even older generation posters consider Kapil an ATG and the quartet is regarded as the golden four.

 

[Ab Fan]

Kapil is not in the same league.

What few indian posters think doesn't change the majority world view

And that is enough to call him non ATG?

 

[Sachin136]

Kapil is not in the same league.

What few indian posters think doesn't change the majority world view

There is more to the world than Pakistan and PakPassion. I advise you to take a look at polls on other forums. You will see actually how small your "majority" is.

 

[Mamoon]

Kapil was below Imran in Tests, but his status and legacy as one of the greats of the game cannot be questioned. Some embarrassing posts in this thread. Folks naming the likes of Asif as ATGs while objecting to Kapil and Botham getting mentioned. Utterly pathetic.

 

[Slog]

There is more to the world than Pakistan and PakPassion. I advise you to take a look at polls on other forums. You will see actually how small your "majority" is.

yes i know that and the view is formed on the basis of that

im guessing your indian forum is your base of 'majority' opinion

 

[Ab Fan]

If I have to sum it upto top 50 greatest test cricketers of all time, then would most likely end up with this:

Australia(13):

Mcgrath, Warne, Lillie, O'Reilly,Lindwall
Trumper, Bradman, Chappell, Ponting, Border, S Waugh
Keith Miller
Adam Gilchrist

England(10):

W.C.Grace, Hobbs, Hutton, Hammond,Sutclife,Barrington
Trueman, Barnes
Botham
Alan Knott

India(4):

Kapil Dev
Sachin, Sunny, Dravid

NZ(1):

Hadlee

Pakistan(4):

Wasim, Waqar
Miandad
Imran

South Africa(5):

Graeme Pollock
Steyn, Pollock, Donald
Kallis

Sri Lanka(2):

Murali
Sanga

West Indies(11):

Viv, Sobers, Lara, Headley,Walcott,Weekes,Worrell
Marshall, Ambrose, Garner, Holding

Think all these are legitimate ATGs and not many would doubt.Was hard to ignore the likes of Walsh, Yk, Compton,Smith and others but then that's how it goes.

 

[Tusker]

unfortunately your reputation her precedes you....

yep reputation to call a spade as a spade ... I see why that doesnt sit well with you

 

[Chrish]

Anyways, all three Ws from Windies were pretty much HTBs..Not ATG material tbh.

 

[Balthazar]

These are the players I have seen them live and perform consistently barring occasional failures.

Aus: McGrath, Ponting
Eng: Cook
SA: Steyn, Kallis
Ind: Sachin, Dravid
Pak: Inzamam

 

[Bilal7]

So Asif deserves deserves to be mentioned as an ATG but not Kapil, Botham and Sehwag? You never fail to spring a surprise, have to give you credit for it.

Asif is no ATG. He does average under 25 so he meets the criteria of the OP. Your comprehension is impeccable as usual.

Says the man who has Asif in his list!!!!!!!!

He averages under 25. OP is asking for bowlers who average under 25.

Absolutely ... take a look at their performances against the best teams of their times. VVS was a gun player against the best bowlers ... especially when the chips were down. Nothing compares to 281. Only Inzi in that list is perhaps a better player than VVS.

Miandad was twice the batsman Laxman was. Inzamam was clearly superior too.

Kapil was below Imran in Tests, but his status and legacy as one of the greats of the game cannot be questioned. Some embarrassing posts in this thread. Folks naming the likes of Asif as ATGs while objecting to Kapil and Botham getting mentioned. Utterly pathetic.

Kapil was no ATG. His numbers are comparable to the likes of Afridi and Razzaq, not Imran and Sobers. He is a great player though but as far as OP's criteria goes, he doesn't meet it.

 

[Bilal7]

Imran, Miller, Sobers and Kallis are the ATG all-rounders.

Botham, Pollock, Kapil and Hadlee are a level lower and are the great all-rounders.

 

[Mamoon]

[MENTION=129948]Bilal7[/MENTION]

Don't worry about my comprehension skills. I know what you are doing, try tricking some newbie. Look at the reasoning you have provided for not considering Sehwag, Kapil and Botham all-time greats. You could have simply said that they don't qualify for the criteria instead of calling Sehwag a FTB (when Asif himself trundled hopeless on grassless wickets most of the time) and questioning the bowling and batting skills of Kapil and Botham. The fact that you are equating Kapil with Afridi and Razzaq sums it up really, it is right up there with some of your other outlandish views. It is okay to be a little biased, but when the bias reaches such grandeur levels, it becomes quite.....never mind.

 

[Ramez]

Aus
Eng
WI
PAK
INDIA
SA
SL
NZ
ZM
BAN

 

[dildildalwalla]

We don't need to do that. Besides you're never gonna come to consensus on setting a fixed criteria for judging greatness.

This isn't meant to be a fixed criteria, simply a look at the numbers that often go hand in hand with greatness (bat avg of 50 or more, fast bowl avg of 25 or less, spin avg of 30 or less). There are more great players that fall into that category than not and there are very, VERY few great players not in that category (KP comes to mind, Amla too, Qadir as a leggy).

Obviously, all of the upper tier greats for batting (Tendy, Lara, Ponting, Bradman, Viv) and bowling (Wasim, Waqar, McGrath, Murali, Warne) fall into the numerical boundaries.

Asif is no ATG. He does average under 25 so he meets the criteria of the OP. Your comprehension is impeccable as usual.



He averages under 25. OP is asking for bowlers who average under 25.



Miandad was twice the batsman Laxman was. Inzamam was clearly superior too.



Kapil was no ATG. His numbers are comparable to the likes of Afridi and Razzaq, not Imran and Sobers. He is a great player though but as far as OP's criteria goes, he doesn't meet it.

Exactly.

Imran, Miller, Sobers and Kallis are the ATG all-rounders.

Botham, Pollock, Kapil and Hadlee are a level lower and are the great all-rounders.

I'd make 4 categories of all rounders:

Top - Sobers and Khan

Upper middle - Botham, Kallis and Hadlee

Lower middle - Kapil and Miller

Bottom - Pollock, Afridi (in ODIs), Razzak (ODIs)

Obviously exclusing keepers like Gily and Dhoni.

That's how I see it anyway.

 

[dildildalwalla]

dont think imran khan is best bat of the lot

botham probably

I thikn Khan probably had the best period in the 80s with the bat out of the four. Botham however was probably the most destructive on his day but a lot of his bets innings came early in his career and from then on he just got worse and worse BUT his batting is the best to watch in highlights. What a striker against the Aussies!

 

[MMHS]

He averages under 25. OP is asking for bowlers who average under 25.

Then please add Jadeja, Ashwin & Vinod Kambli as well in the list............

 

[dildildalwalla]

Then please add Jadeja, Ashwin & Vinod Kambli as well in the list............

I added spinners averaging under 30, it boosted India's numbers but no matter how much you want, it won't ever overtake Pakistan so relax. Talk cricket, don't get offended.

 

[MMHS]

I added spinners averaging under 30, it boosted India's numbers but no matter how much you want, it won't ever overtake Pakistan so relax. Talk cricket, don't get offended.

I wonder, with 20 Test filter & average of 50, 25 & 30 for spinners how you came to the number of 5 for India!!!

I can count 10 (11) with your filter -

Gavasker, Tendulkar, Dravid, Pujara
Kumble, Bedi, Chandra, Ashwin, Jadeja, Nadkarni, Gupte

Pujara is a current player so his career end might not qualify your filter of GREATNESS, hence I counted 10. Few weeks back Kohli was in this list as well & Kambli missing it by 3 Test. While Ghulam Ahmed & Ojha missing for 0.17 & 0.26 average over 30.

I suggest, you better relax & do proper homework before Talking Cricket. It's not even difficult to run StatGuru to look smart.

 

[geraltofrivia]

I wonder, with 20 Test filter & average of 50, 25 & 30 for spinners how you came to the number of 5 for India!!!

I can count 10 (11) with your filter -

Gavasker, Tendulkar, Dravid, Pujara
Kumble, Bedi, Chandra, Ashwin, Jadeja, Nadkarni, Gupte

Pujara is a current player so his career end might not qualify your filter of GREATNESS, hence I counted 10. Few weeks back Kohli was in this list as well & Kambli missing it by 3 Test. While Ghulam Ahmed & Ojha missing for 0.17 & 0.26 average over 30.

I suggest, you better relax & do proper homework before Talking Cricket. It's not even difficult to run StatGuru to look smart.

Pakistanis seem to be taking solace in the fact that historically they have produced more greats.

Maybe it is to hide from the fact that post 2003 there hasn't even been a great player from Pakistan. The two that could have been - Ajmal and Asif met their ends in a bad way.

Apart from these two how many post 03 debuts from Pakistan average below 25 for a pacer, 30 for a spinner or above 50 for a batsman (of course decent sample size - say 100 wickets and 2000/3000 runs) and can go on to become a great? Zero. For India it is 3 - Ashwin, Jadeja, Pujara (with Kohli at 49)

Even if we relax the criteria a bit to allow for good but not great players - 30 for a pacer, 35 for a spinner, 45 for a batsman it is just two - Yasir Shah and Azhar Ali. From India - Kohli, Rahane and Ojha along with the other 3 names.

Now Ojha is retired so forget him.

Jadeja and Ashwin will always remain below 30 their whole lives since they have so many wickets at a such a low average. For them to get their averages above 30 will mean bowling badly for a long time in which case they will be dropped anyways. (Similar to how Steve Smith won't average below 50 in his life).

Also Rahane, Kohli, Pujara all average 46+ (With Kohli at 49 and Pujara at 50) and are at that age (~28) where a batsman's career takes off so there is a good chance they might finish above 50 (might not too). All three are showing the career trajectory of almost all great/good batsmen (Ponting, YK, Sanga, Amla etc) and are at that point where they are ready to go to the next level (they have already begun imo).

Mind you, Azhar is 32 and is already in that peak and he averages 47 during the peak so his similarity is with players like Gambhir, Trott and Bell who at their peaks averaged late 40s early 50s before declining into the early 40s.

So India have five potential ATGs (using the 25/30/50 criteria) out of which two are sure shot (Ash/Jad) and the batsmen will be good if not ATGs.

Pakistan have 0 potential ATGs and 2 who can be good.

Again there are players like Rahul/Azam etc but these guys don't have a good sample set as of now. (Babar anyways avgs 20 something in test cricket)

 

[MMHS]

Pakistanis seem to be taking solace in the fact that historically they have produced more greats.

Maybe it is to hide from the fact that post 2003 there hasn't even been a great player from Pakistan. The two that could have been - Ajmal and Asif met their ends in a bad way.

Apart from these two how many post 03 debuts from Pakistan average below 25 for a pacer, 30 for a spinner or above 50 for a batsman (of course decent sample size - say 100 wickets and 2000/3000 runs) and can go on to become a great? Zero. For India it is 3 - Ashwin, Jadeja, Pujara (with Kohli at 49)

Even if we relax the criteria a bit to allow for good but not great players - 30 for a pacer, 35 for a spinner, 45 for a batsman it is just two - Yasir Shah and Azhar Ali. From India - Kohli, Rahane and Ojha along with the other 3 names.

Now Ojha is retired so forget him.

Jadeja and Ashwin will always remain below 30 their whole lives since they have so many wickets at a such a low average. For them to get their averages above 30 will mean bowling badly for a long time in which case they will be dropped anyways. (Similar to how Steve Smith won't average below 50 in his life).

Also Rahane, Kohli, Pujara all average 46+ (With Kohli at 49 and Pujara at 50) and are at that age (~28) where a batsman's career takes off so there is a good chance they might finish above 50 (might not too). All three are showing the career trajectory of almost all great/good batsmen (Ponting, YK, Sanga, Amla etc) and are at that point where they are ready to go to the next level (they have already begun imo).

Mind you, Azhar is 32 and is already in that peak and he averages 47 during the peak so his similarity is with players like Gambhir, Trott and Bell who at their peaks averaged late 40s early 50s before declining into the early 40s.

So India have five potential ATGs (using the 25/30/50 criteria) out of which two are sure shot (Ash/Jad) and the batsmen will be good if not ATGs.

Pakistan have 0 potential ATGs and 2 who can be good.

Again there are players like Rahul/Azam etc but these guys don't have a good sample set as of now. (Babar anyways avgs 20 something in test cricket)

I never measure greatness by stats, which you can see in earlier posts. I lost interest in this thread until someone tried to become too smart. Getting under skin is easy, tougher is to remain there.

 

[dildildalwalla]

I wonder, with 20 Test filter & average of 50, 25 & 30 for spinners how you came to the number of 5 for India!!!

I can count 10 (11) with your filter -

Gavasker, Tendulkar, Dravid, Pujara
Kumble, Bedi, Chandra, Ashwin, Jadeja, Nadkarni, Gupte

Pujara is a current player so his career end might not qualify your filter of GREATNESS, hence I counted 10. Few weeks back Kohli was in this list as well & Kambli missing it by 3 Test. While Ghulam Ahmed & Ojha missing for 0.17 & 0.26 average over 30.

I suggest, you better relax & do proper homework before Talking Cricket. It's not even difficult to run StatGuru to look smart.

I suggest you read through this thread properly.

I updated my list like 2 days ago. India does indeed have 11 such players...as I've already posted. It still doesn't beat pak though lol

 

[dildildalwalla]

Now back to the cricket (I have banned a few more of the cry babies).
What really surprised and impressed me is the number of players SA have fielded who would meet the statistical criteria that I set out.

The reason I find it so imrpessive is that early in their history, they were nothing moret han minnows and just as they started to do well, they were banned. Their come back in international cricket has been about 25 years I think and in that time, they have produced some of the best and most watchable cricketers I have seen in my life time.

I think that say a lot about their sporting infrastructure, of course helped by very wealthy private schools and a very wealthy white community.

 

[Mamoon]

Now back to the cricket (I have banned a few more of the cry babies).
What really surprised and impressed me is the number of players SA have fielded who would meet the statistical criteria that I set out.

The reason I find it so imrpessive is that early in their history, they were nothing moret han minnows and just as they started to do well, they were banned. Their come back in international cricket has been about 25 years I think and in that time, they have produced some of the best and most watchable cricketers I have seen in my life time.

I think that say a lot about their sporting infrastructure, of course helped by very wealthy private schools and a very wealthy white community.

You don't seem to have the stomach to withstanding criticism and conflicting views, and take great pride in banning people. Pretty soon, you will be talking to yourself only.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

Now back to the cricket (I have banned a few more of the cry babies).
What really surprised and impressed me is the number of players SA have fielded who would meet the statistical criteria that I set out.

The reason I find it so imrpessive is that early in their history, they were nothing moret han minnows and just as they started to do well, they were banned. Their come back in international cricket has been about 25 years I think and in that time, they have produced some of the best and most watchable cricketers I have seen in my life time.

I think that say a lot about their sporting infrastructure, of course helped by very wealthy private schools and a very wealthy white community.

If you can't stand criticism why make a thread ?

On top of it have a username Dildilwala?

Where is your heart to appreciate things u don't agree with?

Anyways, its Pakpassion so I give most posters leeway.

But labeling others crybabies just because your opinion differs and walking off is practically not how to discuss constructively in forums.

 

[Ph_11]

It is not difficult to answers op's question. The country that the most has produced the most.

 

[Bilal7]

[MENTION=129948]Bilal7[/MENTION]

Don't worry about my comprehension skills. I know what you are doing, try tricking some newbie. Look at the reasoning you have provided for not considering Sehwag, Kapil and Botham all-time greats. You could have simply said that they don't qualify for the criteria instead of calling Sehwag a FTB (when Asif himself trundled hopeless on grassless wickets most of the time) and questioning the bowling and batting skills of Kapil and Botham. The fact that you are equating Kapil with Afridi and Razzaq sums it up really, it is right up there with some of your other outlandish views. It is okay to be a little biased, but when the bias reaches such grandeur levels, it becomes quite.....never mind.

My reasoning is quite clear. Sehwag, Kapil and Botham are not ATG because they simply have poor or mediocre records. Sehwag averages in the 20s in any country where the ball moved an inch, lol. The only one being biased here is you if your fawning over India does not allow you to see these cold, hard facts. Ditto for Kapil who, I repeat, has numbers equivalent to Afridi and Razzaq, rather than Imran, Kallis and Sobers. I don't rate Kapil as anything less than a great test player like Pollock and the aforementioned Botham but these three were below the ATG all-rounders of the game.

Mentioning Asif was simply a case of satisfying OP's criteria. Of course, Asif is not a great player but a wasted talent like Bond but he averages under 25 and Kapil does not. Outside of this thread, Kapil is the superior bowler but because of longevity rather than skill.

 

[big_gamer007]

Its called bias ... had they played cricket about 20-30 yrs earlier they would be automatic entries even when 90% of PP hadn't seen them play. Its unbelievable how older era players have such a high reputation amongst fans. Perhaps only in cricket.

Had they played cricket 30 years ago the way they played in current era of course they would have been ATG maybe GOAT.. Its not biased but these guys weren't the best in their own era so can't be ATG.. 50 years from now generations will remember Viv Richards, Sachin Tendulkar, Wasim Akram etc but would anyone remember Hashim Amla? I doubt that

 

[big_gamer007]

Australia and West Indies will probably have the most number of ATG..

India and Pakistan both have the same..

IMO people give ATG tags way too easily the ones from India are sunny, Sachin and dravid
The ones from pak are Imran, Wasim and Waqar..

Players like Ashwin, Akhtar, inzi, VVS, Sehwag etc are great players in their own right but not ATG..

 

[khurram39]

WI
Aus
Pakistan
SA
India

 

[big_gamer007]

My reasoning is quite clear. Sehwag, Kapil and Botham are not ATG because they simply have poor or mediocre records. Sehwag averages in the 20s in any country where the ball moved an inch, lol. The only one being biased here is you if your fawning over India does not allow you to see these cold, hard facts. Ditto for Kapil who, I repeat, has numbers equivalent to Afridi and Razzaq, rather than Imran, Kallis and Sobers. I don't rate Kapil as anything less than a great test player like Pollock and the aforementioned Botham but these three were below the ATG all-rounders of the game.

Mentioning Asif was simply a case of satisfying OP's criteria. Of course, Asif is not a great player but a wasted talent like Bond but he averages under 25 and Kapil does not. Outside of this thread, Kapil is the superior bowler but because of longevity rather than skill.

Kapil stretched his career too long for the record and whatever other reasons.. At his peak Kapil was an excellent swing bowler with decent pace.. His record doesn't show him justice since he played well past his peak, played on Indian wickets in his home matches and had crap support at the other end..

 

[RamLakhan]

Miandad is definitely not an ATG by international standards

Pakistan have their own standards!

 

[big_gamer007]

Pakistan have their own standards!

He's their best batsmen ever so you can understand why fans think he's an ATG..

 

[RamLakhan]

Kapil was no ATG. His numbers are comparable to the likes of Afridi and Razzaq, not Imran and Sobers. He is a great player though but as far as OP's criteria goes, he doesn't meet it.

Kapil is definitely comparable with Imran and Sobers (I mean "comparable" doesn't mean that he has surpassed them or better than them! You got to understand the meaning of "comparable") Kapil has achieved many things in his career, Afridi & Razzaq can't even dream of achieving 10% of that! (And you are comparing him with them!) Typical Pakistan bias existent only in PP!

 

[Mamoon]

My reasoning is quite clear. Sehwag, Kapil and Botham are not ATG because they simply have poor or mediocre records. Sehwag averages in the 20s in any country where the ball moved an inch, lol. The only one being biased here is you if your fawning over India does not allow you to see these cold, hard facts. Ditto for Kapil who, I repeat, has numbers equivalent to Afridi and Razzaq, rather than Imran, Kallis and Sobers. I don't rate Kapil as anything less than a great test player like Pollock and the aforementioned Botham but these three were below the ATG all-rounders of the game.

Mentioning Asif was simply a case of satisfying OP's criteria. Of course, Asif is not a great player but a wasted talent like Bond but he averages under 25 and Kapil does not. Outside of this thread, Kapil is the superior bowler but because of longevity rather than skill.

I don't think you have to take the pain to repeat yourself. You have made your ignorance extremely obvious already. It is evident that you do not have any idea about the illustrious careers of Botham and Kapil, what they achieved in their era, what they meant to their teams and the impact that they have had on the game. Absolutely no idea. To put them in the category of Afridi and Razzaq and not the other great all-rounders of their era says everything that needs to be said.

No all-rounder in history has made more contributions with both bat and ball at the same time as Botham did, who was a freak of nature in his peak years. Similarly, please check where the Indian bowling would have stood without Kapil and what his contributions for Indian cricket were. Only criticism that one can make is that both dragged their careers a bit too much. Should have retired 2-3 years before they actually did, and it diluted their stats quite a bit.

I can write thousands of words on these two champion cricketers, but I don't know where to start and where to end because you chronic bias is beyond cure. I shouldn't have bothered after you put Botham, Kapil, Razzaq & Afridi in the same sentence.

 

[Haz95]

Just because Botham/Kapil are not ATG in bowling or batting, does not mean they are not ATG all rounders.

And lol if Miandad is not ATG, then neither is Dravid or Sanga.

Delusional Pakistani and Indian posters in the same thread, who would've thought eh.

 

[Mamoon]

Just because Botham/Kapil are not ATG in bowling or batting, does not mean they are not ATG all rounders.

And lol if Miandad is not ATG, then neither is Dravid or Sanga.

Delusional Pakistani and Indian posters in the same thread, who would've thought eh.

This thread has been a disaster. The OP murdered context with his faulty criteria, allowing people to clamor for nobodies like Asif while grinding teeth at the likes of Miandad, Kapil & Botham.

 

[dildildalwalla]

If you can't stand criticism why make a thread ?

On top of it have a username Dildilwala?

Where is your heart to appreciate things u don't agree with?

Anyways, its Pakpassion so I give most posters leeway.

But labeling others crybabies just because your opinion differs and walking off is practically not how to discuss constructively in forums.

You might want to read before you comment. I didn't block anyone who disagreed with me.

My reasoning is quite clear. Sehwag, Kapil and Botham are not ATG because they simply have poor or mediocre records. Sehwag averages in the 20s in any country where the ball moved an inch, lol. The only one being biased here is you if your fawning over India does not allow you to see these cold, hard facts. Ditto for Kapil who, I repeat, has numbers equivalent to Afridi and Razzaq, rather than Imran, Kallis and Sobers. I don't rate Kapil as anything less than a great test player like Pollock and the aforementioned Botham but these three were below the ATG all-rounders of the game.

Mentioning Asif was simply a case of satisfying OP's criteria. Of course, Asif is not a great player but a wasted talent like Bond but he averages under 25 and Kapil does not. Outside of this thread, Kapil is the superior bowler but because of longevity rather than skill.

Botham has got to be a great, surely.

Australia and West Indies will probably have the most number of ATG..

India and Pakistan both have the same..

IMO people give ATG tags way too easily the ones from India are sunny, Sachin and dravid
The ones from pak are Imran, Wasim and Waqar..

Players like Ashwin, Akhtar, inzi, VVS, Sehwag etc are great players in their own right but not ATG..

For Pak I'd add in Inzy, Yousuf and YK, noway thsoe guys fall outside of test greatness. For India Kapil might get a shout. obviously Ashwin Kohli and so on don't but who knows 5 years down the line.

However, based on this criteria, Aus are far ahead with Eng, WI, Pak and SA in similar categories

 

[Bilal7]

Kapil is definitely comparable with Imran and Sobers (I mean "comparable" doesn't mean that he has surpassed them or better than them! You got to understand the meaning of "comparable") Kapil has achieved many things in his career, Afridi & Razzaq can't even dream of achieving 10% of that! (And you are comparing him with them!) Typical Pakistan bias existent only in PP!

Please learn how to comprehend the statements of others before anything else. Afridi was nowhere near as good as Kapil but the fact thay both of them have comparable stats shows that Kapil's performances were highly inconsistent. Yes, Afridi and Razzaq haven't done the things that Botham and Kapil had done but they in turn, did not achieve the level of excellence that Imran, Sobers, Kallis and Miller operated at.

Kapil stretched his career too long for the record and whatever other reasons.. At his peak Kapil was an excellent swing bowler with decent pace.. His record doesn't show him justice since he played well past his peak, played on Indian wickets in his home matches and had crap support at the other end..

That is no one's fault but Kapil's. Knowing when to hang up your boots is part of being a legendary cricketer. This just proves that he was being selfish and putting his personal glory over the good of the team. He was no doubt spectacular during his pomp, which is why I rate him and Botham as great all-rounders. They are just not in the league of Imran, Sobers, Miller and Kallis.

I don't think you have to take the pain to repeat yourself. You have made your ignorance extremely obvious already. It is evident that you do not have any idea about the illustrious careers of Botham and Kapil, what they achieved in their era, what they meant to their teams and the impact that they have had on the game. Absolutely no idea. To put them in the category of Afridi and Razzaq and not the other great all-rounders of their era says everything that needs to be said.

No all-rounder in history has made more contributions with both bat and ball at the same time as Botham did, who was a freak of nature in his peak years. Similarly, please check where the Indian bowling would have stood without Kapil and what his contributions for Indian cricket were. Only criticism that one can make is that both dragged their careers a bit too much. Should have retired 2-3 years before they actually did, and it diluted their stats quite a bit.

I can write thousands of words on these two champion cricketers, but I don't know where to start and where to end because you chronic bias is beyond cure. I shouldn't have bothered after you put Botham, Kapil, Razzaq & Afridi in the same sentence.

You are being utterly thick right now and it makes me wonder why I waste my time explaining things to you. Kapil and Botham are obviously superior test players to Afridi and Razzaq but their stats are similar. This tells me that despite both of them doing really well during their peaks, as time passed by, they deteriorated to the point where placing them in the category of Imran, Sobers, Kallis and Miller is categorically wrong. No one would pick Kapil and Botham as their premier all-rounder over these four champions and therefore they simply do not belong in the same tier. They are a level lower, along with Shaun Pollock.

Just because they were immense for their countries does not automatically place them in the category of ATGs. Shakib Al-Hasan has had a huge impact on Bangladeshi cricket but one would not place him among the elites of the game due to this.

P.S. It is Imran, not Botham, who has been the closest thing to a perfect all-rounder due to a 10 year period where he averages 50 with the bat, 19 with the ball, captained the Pakistani team so well that they went toe-to-toe with the greatest team of all time, gained rhe reputation of a safe fielder and culminated in him coming back from retirement and winning the World Cup for his country.

 

[Bilal7]

Australia and West Indies will probably have the most number of ATG..

India and Pakistan both have the same..

IMO people give ATG tags way too easily the ones from India are sunny, Sachin and dravid
The ones from pak are Imran, Wasim and Waqar..

Players like Ashwin, Akhtar, inzi, VVS, Sehwag etc are great players in their own right but not ATG..

Miandad waa superior to any Indian batsman barring Sachin and arguably Gavasker so if India has three batsmen in the ATG club, Miandad definitely deserves to be there. Pakistan has had more great cricketers than India which is nothing to be ashamed of since Pakistan has always been the better test team, barring a few years after the turn of the millennium.

 

[dildildalwalla]

Miandad waa superior to any Indian batsman barring Sachin and arguably Gavasker so if India has three batsmen in the ATG club, Miandad definitely deserves to be there. Pakistan has had more great cricketers than India which is nothing to be ashamed of since Pakistan has always been the better test team, barring a few years after the turn of the millennium.

exactly! some of these indian fans think cricket started in 2002 lol

Please learn how to comprehend the statements of others before anything else. Afridi was nowhere near as good as Kapil but the fact thay both of them have comparable stats shows that Kapil's performances were highly inconsistent. Yes, Afridi and Razzaq haven't done the things that Botham and Kapil had done but they in turn, did not achieve the level of excellence that Imran, Sobers, Kallis and Miller operated at.



That is no one's fault but Kapil's. Knowing when to hang up your boots is part of being a legendary cricketer. This just proves that he was being selfish and putting his personal glory over the good of the team. He was no doubt spectacular during his pomp, which is why I rate him and Botham as great all-rounders. They are just not in the league of Imran, Sobers, Miller and Kallis.



You are being utterly thick right now and it makes me wonder why I waste my time explaining things to you. Kapil and Botham are obviously superior test players to Afridi and Razzaq but their stats are similar. This tells me that despite both of them doing really well during their peaks, as time passed by, they deteriorated to the point where placing them in the category of Imran, Sobers, Kallis and Miller is categorically wrong. No one would pick Kapil and Botham as their premier all-rounder over these four champions and therefore they simply do not belong in the same tier. They are a level lower, along with Shaun Pollock.

Just because they were immense for their countries does not automatically place them in the category of ATGs. Shakib Al-Hasan has had a huge impact on Bangladeshi cricket but one would not place him among the elites of the game due to this.

P.S. It is Imran, not Botham, who has been the closest thing to a perfect all-rounder due to a 10 year period where he averages 50 with the bat, 19 with the ball, captained the Pakistani team so well that they went toe-to-toe with the greatest team of all time, gained rhe reputation of a safe fielder and culminated in him coming back from retirement and winning the World Cup for his country.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying (no point in explaining to mamoon he just trolls) but how do you rank Kallis alongside Khan and Sobers? I don't think his bowling supports the upper tier of all rounders. Especially towards the end of his career (the last 6or 7 years) where he was basically used for the odd spell to rest the main bowlers and maybe break a partnership.

Certainly a great batsman (gets in based on the criteria) but not on the same level as a bolwer. I'd probs have him in tier 2.

 

[big_gamer007]

Please learn how to comprehend the statements of others before anything else. Afridi was nowhere near as good as Kapil but the fact thay both of them have comparable stats shows that Kapil's performances were highly inconsistent. Yes, Afridi and Razzaq haven't done the things that Botham and Kapil had done but they in turn, did not achieve the level of excellence that Imran, Sobers, Kallis and Miller operated at.



That is no one's fault but Kapil's. Knowing when to hang up your boots is part of being a legendary cricketer. This just proves that he was being selfish and putting his personal glory over the good of the team. He was no doubt spectacular during his pomp, which is why I rate him and Botham as great all-rounders. They are just not in the league of Imran, Sobers, Miller and Kallis.



You are being utterly thick right now and it makes me wonder why I waste my time explaining things to you. Kapil and Botham are obviously superior test players to Afridi and Razzaq but their stats are similar. This tells me that despite both of them doing really well during their peaks, as time passed by, they deteriorated to the point where placing them in the category of Imran, Sobers, Kallis and Miller is categorically wrong. No one would pick Kapil and Botham as their premier all-rounder over these four champions and therefore they simply do not belong in the same tier. They are a level lower, along with Shaun Pollock.

Just because they were immense for their countries does not automatically place them in the category of ATGs. Shakib Al-Hasan has had a huge impact on Bangladeshi cricket but one would not place him among the elites of the game due to this.

P.S. It is Imran, not Botham, who has been the closest thing to a perfect all-rounder due to a 10 year period where he averages 50 with the bat, 19 with the ball, captained the Pakistani team so well that they went toe-to-toe with the greatest team of all time, gained rhe reputation of a safe fielder and culminated in him coming back from retirement and winning the World Cup for his country.

Of course the 4 you mentioned were better all rounders than Kapil no one would deny that apart from miller whose case can be argued as he did not play in the professional era but still..

Miandad waa superior to any Indian batsman barring Sachin and arguably Gavasker so if India has three batsmen in the ATG club, Miandad definitely deserves to be there. Pakistan has had more great cricketers than India which is nothing to be ashamed of since Pakistan has always been the better test team, barring a few years after the turn of the millennium.

Miandad was your best batsman no doubt, his record against the two best teams of his era away is not really good.. India was sort of a minnow during him time and he feasted on our bowling.. I would not consider him an ATG but that's my opinion..

I don't understand why you people think we would be ashamed if Pakistan has more ATG's? Would you have been ashamed if India had more ATG? If yes then you need to change your mindset mate.. Not everyone gives a crap about India-Pakistan rivalry enough to have their judgement revolve around it

 

[dildildalwalla]

Of course the 4 you mentioned were better all rounders than Kapil no one would deny that apart from miller whose case can be argued as he did not play in the professional era but still..



Miandad was your best batsman no doubt, his record against the two best teams of his era away is not really good.. India was sort of a minnow during him time and he feasted on our bowling.. I would not consider him an ATG but that's my opinion..

I don't understand why you people think we would be ashamed if Pakistan has more ATG's? Would you have been ashamed if India had more ATG? If yes then you need to change your mindset mate.. Not everyone gives a crap about India-Pakistan rivalry enough to have their judgement revolve around it

you are ashamed which is why Indians were the ones who first started commenting on this thread avout Pak v Ind rather than discussing the 8 other countries on the list

Maybe not you personally but most Indians are too sensitive on here, which is weird because I feel sad they don't have their own forum.

 

[Hitman]

you are ashamed which is why Indians were the ones who first started commenting on this thread avout Pak v Ind rather than discussing the 8 other countries on the list

Maybe not you personally but most Indians are too sensitive on here, which is weird because I feel sad they don't have their own forum.

Why put an Indian flag beside your avatar? Most of us know you are a phoney, why publicly state it? Most of us know from your past posts that you are a Pakistani

 

[dildildalwalla]

Probably go with

Oz
Windies
Eng although most are from the amateur era
SA
Pak
Ind
SL
NZ
Zim

I forgot to say, this wast he closest to the actual ranking anyone came to without cricinfo or google

good stuff to whoever this is !

 

[SL_Fan]

Hard to argue with that bud. I am the greatest. Should be on that list myself surely.

 

[Tusker]

Miandad waa superior to any Indian batsman barring Sachin and arguably Gavasker so if India has three batsmen in the ATG club, Miandad definitely deserves to be there. Pakistan has had more great cricketers than India which is nothing to be ashamed of since Pakistan has always been the better test team, barring a few years after the turn of the millennium.

Hmmm ... lets check some facts and stats shall we ?

Here is Miandad vs WI which was the best team of his times as compared to other Indians:

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...n;team=6;team=7;template=results;type=batting

Even Kapil who batted much lower in the batting order has made more runs and hundreds than Javed. And here is the kicker : Javed never faced the top 4 WI fast bowlers in any match ( Roberts, Marshall, Holding, Garner ). Kapil played atleast 3 or 4 tests against that bowling attack.

And just for kicks sake Kapil even took a small matter of 89 Wkts against WI (that includes a career best of 9/83 on a dead track) but thats just icing on the cake


[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] [MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION]

 

[Bilal7]

Hmmm ... lets check some facts and stats shall we ?

Here is Miandad vs WI which was the best team of his times as compared to other Indians:

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...n;team=6;team=7;template=results;type=batting

Even Kapil who batted much lower in the batting order has made more runs and hundreds than Javed. And here is the kicker : Javed never faced the top 4 WI fast bowlers in any match ( Roberts, Marshall, Holding, Garner ). Kapil played atleast 3 or 4 tests against that bowling attack.

And just for kicks sake Kapil even took a small matter of 89 Wkts against WI (that includes a career best of 9/83 on a dead track) but thats just icing on the cake


[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] [MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION]

These facts are well known, chacha. Miandad failed in the West Indies, like Ponting failed in India and Dravid failed in South Africa. Taufeeq Umar has a better average that Dravid in SA, doesn't make him a better batsman. Kapil was good against the Windies which is why he is a great all-rounder despite having mediocre stats overall. He isn't an ATG though because you can't earn that tag by simply doing well against a single team.

Of course the 4 you mentioned were better all rounders than Kapil no one would deny that apart from miller whose case can be argued as he did not play in the professional era but still..



Miandad was your best batsman no doubt, his record against the two best teams of his era away is not really good.. India was sort of a minnow during him time and he feasted on our bowling.. I would not consider him an ATG but that's my opinion..

I don't understand why you people think we would be ashamed if Pakistan has more ATG's? Would you have been ashamed if India had more ATG? If yes then you need to change your mindset mate.. Not everyone gives a crap about India-Pakistan rivalry enough to have their judgement revolve around it

Well, Dravid was a failure vs South Africa and Australia away as well, apart from feasting on some Aussie trundlers in one specific series but he's still hailed as a better batsman than Tendulker by some Indians. Every batsman has weaknesses and not every ATG performs against the best team of his time. The best team of their time became the best team because they managed to keep these guys quiet.

I was saying that you shouldn't be ashamed that Pakistan has more ATGs and has been the better cricket team. You horribly misunderstood my point.

 

[msb314]

Great list. I think, you missed few players including all-rounders, who should be in your list -

AUS: V Trumper, Keith Miller, Richie Benaud, W O'Railey
ENG: Compton, Botham, Laker
WIN: Roberts, George Headley, Everton Weeks, Rohan Kanhai
IND: Kapil
PAK: Sohaib (He is recorded the fastest ever bowler, deserves an unique spot), Fazal Mahmood
SAF: Greeme Pollock, Shaun Pollock

I think, more or less top 3 spots are unanimous - AUS, WIN, ENG

Fast or not fast - Akhtar never had the consistency or longevity to become an ATG and his stats reflect that.

Still I admire him when he was at his peak - incredible bowling in some spells e.g. 1st Test vs England at Multan 2005 and did his best to maintain his fitness despite dodgy knees but not an ATG for me.

 

[Bilal7]

exactly! some of these indian fans think cricket started in 2002 lol



I agree with a lot of what you're saying (no point in explaining to mamoon he just trolls) but how do you rank Kallis alongside Khan and Sobers? I don't think his bowling supports the upper tier of all rounders. Especially towards the end of his career (the last 6or 7 years) where he was basically used for the odd spell to rest the main bowlers and maybe break a partnership.

Certainly a great batsman (gets in based on the criteria) but not on the same level as a bolwer. I'd probs have him in tier 2.

Well, Kallis wasn't really inferior to Sobers as a bowler. Towards the end of his career he was used as a part-timer because age had caught up to him but in his prime he was a decent pace bowler. He has better bowling stats than Sobers which does tell me that they were both on the same level as bowlers. Of course, nowhere close to Imran in this department.

You're a great addition to this forum, by the way.

 

[Tusker]

These facts are well known, chacha. Miandad failed in the West Indies, like Ponting failed in India and Dravid failed in South Africa. Taufeeq Umar has a better average that Dravid in SA, doesn't make him a better batsman.

That his stats are worse than even Kapil's batting stats vs the best teams of All time and that Kapil is at #3 ? I highly doubt it.

Kapil was good against the Windies which is why he is a great all-rounder despite having mediocre stats overall. He isn't an ATG though because you can't earn that tag by simply doing well against a single team.

Not when the team in question is the Top team of your times. If you don't perform against the Top team of your times you simply don't qualify for the tag of ATG.

BTW Miandad never faced South Africa and with SL being minnows (Still struggled against them not even a 50 in SL ) and a poor record in AUS ( Avg 38.07 ) and a overall Away avg of under 50 (only in N he avgs over 50 lol ) ... Heck he has a very poor record against even Zim !! Suffice to say that he has too many holes in his record to qualify as an ATG.

 

[Bilal7]

Fast or not fast - Akhtar never had the consistency or longevity to become an ATG and his stats reflect that.

Still I admire him when he was at his peak - incredible bowling in some spells e.g. 1st Test vs England at Multan 2005 and did his best to maintain his fitness despite dodgy knees but not an ATG for me.

Akhtar and Asif definitely had the skill level of ATGs. All they lacked was a good number of matches. Shane Bond is another bowler who was as skilled as any to have played the game.

 

[Bilal7]

That his stats are worse than even Kapil's batting stats vs the best teams of All time and that Kapil is at #3 ? I highly doubt it.



Not when the team in question is the Top team of your times. If you don't perform against the Top team of your times you simply don't qualify for the tag of ATG.

BTW Miandad never faced South Africa and with SL being minnows (Still struggled against them not even a 50 in SL ) and a poor record in AUS ( Avg 38.07 ) and a overall Away avg of under 50 (only in N he avgs over 50 lol ) ... Heck he has a very poor record against even Zim !! Suffice to say that he has too many holes in his record to qualify as an ATG.

No, Miandad is a bonafide ATG. His numbers are great for his time and influenced by biased home umpires. His home average should be lower and his away average should be higher. I really don't need to waste my time with a troll like you on the credentials of Javed. You're probably still bum-hurt about that six and the fact that he played a match-winning knock in a World Cup final whereas Sachin choked in both of his.

 

[PakLFC]

Is there a set number of runs to be scored or wickets to be taken to qualify for being called a "great player"?
To me the West Indies have produced the most influential players so are the winners in this contest. Below are the West Indian players I call "great". I do not consider the likes of Clive Lloyd, Joel Garner, Courtney Walsh, Richie Richardson or Andy Roberts to be great but effective players.

Gordon Greenidge
Desmond Haynes
Brian Lara
Viv Richards
Curtley Ambrose
Malcolm Marshall
Michael Holding
Rohan Kanhai
Gary Sobers

 

[Tusker]

No, Miandad is a bonafide ATG. His numbers are great for his time and influenced by biased home umpires. His home average should be lower and his away average should be higher.

So the umpiring was fair when Indian batsmen toured these countries I suppose ? just look at the extent of your victim mentality. But hey lets look at the bright side you atleast acknowledge that his home avg is helped by Umpiring ... there is hope yet for you

I really don't need to waste my time with a troll like you on the credentials of Javed. You're probably still bum-hurt about that six and the fact that he played a match-winning knock in a World Cup final whereas Sachin choked in both of his.

I see you have quietly moved on to ODI's when the topic is about Test Greats ? ) Anyhow it never gets tiring to beat you at your own game. Let me know if you really want to talk about ODI's.

 

[Tusker]

Hmmm ... lets check some facts and stats shall we ?

Here is Miandad vs WI which was the best team of his times as compared to other Indians:

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...n;team=6;team=7;template=results;type=batting

Even Kapil who batted much lower in the batting order has made more runs and hundreds than Javed. And here is the kicker : Javed never faced the top 4 WI fast bowlers in any match ( Roberts, Marshall, Holding, Garner ). Kapil played atleast 3 or 4 tests against that bowling attack.

And just for kicks sake Kapil even took a small matter of 89 Wkts against WI (that includes a career best of 9/83 on a dead track) but thats just icing on the cake


[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] [MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION]

And just for giggles ... here is the stat sorted by Strike rate ... Miandad has a S/R that is nt even half as Kapil's fantastic s/r of 91 (and this is Test Matches )

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...n;team=6;team=7;template=results;type=batting

 

[msb314]

Akhtar and Asif definitely had the skill level of ATGs. All they lacked was a good number of matches. Shane Bond is another bowler who was as skilled as any to have played the game.

Oh yes for sure.

Even during his playing days - Akhtar missed quite few matches due to drug issues, indiscipline, hitting other players so his behaviour really let him down at times.

Aqib Javed and Waqar Younis also come to mind - Waqar is arguably a borderline ATG anyway but had it not been for his back injuries - he could have been a bonafide ATG for sure.

 

[big_gamer007]

These facts are well known, chacha. Miandad failed in the West Indies, like Ponting failed in India and Dravid failed in South Africa. Taufeeq Umar has a better average that Dravid in SA, doesn't make him a better batsman. Kapil was good against the Windies which is why he is a great all-rounder despite having mediocre stats overall. He isn't an ATG though because you can't earn that tag by simply doing well against a single team.



Well, Dravid was a failure vs South Africa and Australia away as well, apart from feasting on some Aussie trundlers in one specific series but he's still hailed as a better batsman than Tendulker by some Indians. Every batsman has weaknesses and not every ATG performs against the best team of his time. The best team of their time became the best team because they managed to keep these guys quiet.

I was saying that you shouldn't be ashamed that Pakistan has more ATGs and has been the better cricket team. You horribly misunderstood my point.

If you don't consider dravid and ATG that's fine it's your opinion and I would respect it.. To me Miandad doesn't cut the curve slightly he is probably the one of the best amongst people who don't make the ATG list...

I didn't miss your point at all why would you think anyone would be ashamed if Pakistan has more ATG is beyond me.. Pakistan has had a great peak better than India and has produced some exciting players no doubt..

 

[big_gamer007]

Akhtar and Asif definitely had the skill level of ATGs. All they lacked was a good number of matches. Shane Bond is another bowler who was as skilled as any to have played the game.

Vinod Kambli, Narender hirwani, Rohit Sharma all had skills to be ATG.. it's not about having skills it's about putting in the hard work and converting those skills into performances over a long period of time consistently..

 

[RamLakhan]

Probably go with

Oz
Windies
Eng although most are from the amateur era
SA
Pak
Ind
SL
NZ
Zim

Fair enough list, but this will change drastically in at least next 5 years, I am sure of that! It will look something like this: (If the scope of this thread is Test Cricket)

Australia
England
West Indies
South Africa
India
Pakistan
NZ
Srilanka
Bangladesh

Especially Pakistani players, ex-players, media and even fans remain in the past, keep praising their old players, doesn't get to understand modern style of cricket, administration, professionalism, still stick to age old internal politics, I am afraid the situation goes even worse and even No.6 spot (overall history) will be under threat!

India is actually doing better in test cricket than LOIs these days (and the future trend) if anyone noticed!

 

[QalandarFan]

This what I'd say

1 - Australia
2 - England
3 - West Indies
4 - Pakistan
5 - South Africa
6 - India
7 - New Zealand
8 - Sri Lanka
9 - Zimbabwe
10 - Bangladesh

I am purely guessing but I feel Aus Eng and WI have to be in the top 3.

 

[Bilal7]

Vinod Kambli, Narender hirwani, Rohit Sharma all had skills to be ATG.. it's not about having skills it's about putting in the hard work and converting those skills into performances over a long period of time consistently..

Heard good things about the other two but Rohit Sharma doesn't really have the skills of an ATG player. He has always looked like a fish out of water against the moving ball. What he does have, however, is an ability to hit boundaries at will on flat pitches.

Akhtar, Bond and Asif were hampered by injuries and personal demons. They did not lack anything from a cricketing perspective.

If you don't consider dravid and ATG that's fine it's your opinion and I would respect it.. To me Miandad doesn't cut the curve slightly he is probably the one of the best amongst people who don't make the ATG list...

I didn't miss your point at all why would you think anyone would be ashamed if Pakistan has more ATG is beyond me.. Pakistan has had a great peak better than India and has produced some exciting players no doubt..

I do consider Dravid an ATG and consider Miandad an ATG too, and a slightly better batsman. There is no question about their status. Well, the way some Indians are posting in this thread, you would definitely assume that. You don't and that's good.

Oh yes for sure.

Even during his playing days - Akhtar missed quite few matches due to drug issues, indiscipline, hitting other players so his behaviour really let him down at times.

Aqib Javed and Waqar Younis also come to mind - Waqar is arguably a borderline ATG anyway but had it not been for his back injuries - he could have been a bonafide ATG for sure.

Aaqib, I don't think so. His ceiling was that of a good bowler and not much higher than that. Waqar Younis is an ATG so his injury did not hamper his status as much as Akhtar's and Bond's did.

 

[RamLakhan]

I don't agree that Pakistan have produced more ATGs than India in Test Cricket. Also the quality of ATGs is same or perhaps slightly better in favor of India, but certainly not more than India!

As someone pointed out rightly:

India:
1) Sachin
2) Gavaskar
3) Dravid
4) Kapil

Pakistan:
1) Imran
2) Wasim
3) Waqar
4) Miandad

This is a perfect list. But what I have done here is I have sorted this list in the order of strength/impact!

Now it comes down to:

Sachin vs Imran! I am sure respective countrymen will argue on this and will have their own bias and analysis. But neutrals will say who is the better ATG (not necessarily in this forum)! The impact and precision!

Gavaskar vs Akram - Probably Akram may win over just slightly, maybe slightly (in my personal opinion). Gavaskar was a monster on his own in Test Cricket! I am sure he will get lots of vote in his favor in this contest, and may probably win it! Akram actually did even better in ODIs (was lethal). There (ODI where he is No.1) he may have to compete with Sachin (our No.1)

Dravid vs Waqar - You have to look at the number of test matches these two played. Dravid has played twice more (160+ vs 80+)! I agree that a bowler (fast bowler) can't play that many test matches. But here the problem is he has to compete with a man like Dravid who maintained his greatness for such a long time. If this was something like Waqar vs Kumble, I am sure he would have won comfortably!

Kapil vs Miandad - Now you have to observe that this is not Kapil vs. Imran contest anymore! In the previous example shall we say that Waqar's stats would have got diluted if he had played as many matches as Kapil! Similarly Dravid's & Kapil's stats would have improved like anything if they had played lesser matches! Let's not make assumptions based on our convenience!

We can also go on to tell that somebody like Kumble is more near to this ATG list compared to Pakistani potential like Inzi. (Similarly Younis vs Laxman or Ganguly!) And for future India is more bright with Kohli, Ashwin (if he can resurrect his career!) while Pak has no such hopes (at least for the moment)!

So overall India beats Pakistan at least by 3-1 in ATGs or quality of ATGs produced! I keep repeating that the reason why Pakistan did better than India in Test Cricket (in the past) is because their ATGs were stacked in the same team and they also had good support players (while India had an average/poor team most times - in the past) When there are good support players, a team performs much better and even their ATGs can improve their stats by applying relentless pressure! (But this thread is all about the number of ATGs produced and not necessarily about team strength!)

Pakistanis should see this analysis with more open heart rather than making analysis based on their conveniences!