KB-24
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No I don't know of anyone and just because it's not present somewhere doesn't mean that it's irrelevant & void.
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Why are men allowed four wives in Islam?
- Thread starter Saj
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No I don't know of anyone and just because it's not present somewhere doesn't mean that it's irrelevant & void.
KingKhanWC
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It's possible. If there is a third world war it is better for the solider to treat women prisoners of war with rights as in Islam instead of locking them up and raping them as most other armies have done and will do. Concubines aren't sexual slaves but on the contrary provide a big responsibility to Muslim men if in a war situation.
Eagle_Eye
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Is it because thinking has evolved from 1400 years ago on this issue and no one accepts its the right thing to do?
KB-24
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If your belief system is built on the wrong foundation, there's every reason for concern for a brother in faith. That's what believers are in Islam, a mirror for each other.
And show me where have I abused you? I simply said your views have nothing to do with Islam and if that offends you it's because you are not being sincere in seeking the truth. Plain & simple.
Anyhow, I'm done.
KB-24
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Thing is cocubinage is not obligatory but at the sametime it is permitted. So it will be allowed till the end of the world, the evolution in thought has no relevance.
KingKhanWC
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God has promised to protect his final revelation and it is protected. I'm not sure what proof you are refereeing to?
Disagree. If worship is the only way to find true peace, it's good for us and it's in our nature then It cannot be cruel. It's like saying giving food to hungry person is narcissism just because you can afford to give away food, it's not because you're only giving what the person is in need of.
No you chose to believe or not after contemplating, if you don't' then you're not doing yourself justice. Allah only closes the hearts of those who are already on the path of disbelief, it's their choice not God's.
Yossarian
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If it's a mirror then that mirror is surely shattered, since from where I'm standing, you don't appear to be normal,
KB-24
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^ Agree with you bro KingKhan ... Human beings throughout history have possessed the instinct to worship. Some have worshipped their own desires, some have performed worship through idolatory and others have worshipped the Creator without associating a partner with him. To deny this instinct is losing sight of reality and such people are the deluded ones.
You don't choose belief...you either believe or you don't...if I asked you to believe Kamran Akmal is the best keeper of all time you wouldn't believe me cos all the information you have up until now says that isn't true...it's not your choice to believe...
As for the 2nd part of that paragraph...closing or opening hearts is interference in the test...that isn't free will...
As for your 2nd paragraph...I don't see your point...there is no relation between your example and what I mentioned...it is narcissistic...a creator creates people for his own amusement with the sole purpose of stroking his ego in a game where he already knows the results because he is all seeing and all knowing...not only is it narcissistic but it makes little sense...
As for it being cruel...of course it is...he creates us to worship him...we didnt ask to be a pawn in his game yet the majority of people will burn for all eternity because they didn't play the game properly...
Proof of Quran...surely one has to believe it is actually the word of God first...making an argument that Allah makes an argument in the Quran about protection is somewhat irrelevant if one doesn't view the work as Godly in the first place...I have discussed previously the flaws with this literary miracle argument...
They are sexual slaves cos they haven't chosen to be in that position...having sex with a female prisoner is rape...there is no such thing as consent between a slave girl and her master/captor...
Rights of Islam unfortunately don't prevent a man from having the right to sexual relations with his slave...
Your answers are vague...
Your ablility to think and rationalise brought you to Islam...what exactly was it?...
KingKhanWC
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In times of war when such issues may come about women prisoners may not chose to be in that position but having rights including taking their masters to court is pretty much accepted as fair. Many were happy with intimate relations because their children would be free, a lot of them are set free themselves which is encouraged. Slavery was part of the economy so some would sell their slaves. It's a complex subject but to suggest that Islam allows rape of women is ignorance. Prisoners of war until this day are treated brutally, Islam many years ago gave a better solution.
No actually...in the current day you are not permitted to rape your POW...
A slave is what your right hand possesses...you are free to have sexual relations with her...whether she wants to or not...i'm sorry but that is rape...
Women were acquired by all sorts of means...whether it was through spoils of war...purchase or tribute...women didn't choose to be sold, nor part of tributes nor to become spoils of war...
On what basis can it be considered anything other than rape?...no such thing as consent between a master and a slave...and this isn't a slant at Islam...all Abrahamic religions permit this behaviour...and it was prevalent 1400 years ago...so whilst there was the prohibition of things like pork which was deemed something immoral enough to forbid...as was alcohol and fornication...something like sex slavery was deemed unnecessary to address...
Although this post is not referred to me, I didn't see a post to quote, so just quoted this one
I don't disagree with eithier viewpoint in this thread, however what your claim is that religion should be followed from it's original context and you've quoted different interpretation to back up your claim, however as poster Javelin has stated and others as well (well partly)? using those sources as a basis to understand the context etc. what doesn't make sense about that, not saying your claims are wrong.
However surely that's like using statistics to measure how good a cricketer etc. is, don't you think? It works both ways. It seems what you are claiming which is fair is based on ignoring the context of events. What do you think?
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Although this post is not referred to me, I didn't see a post to quote, so just quoted this one
I don't disagree with eithier viewpoint in this thread, however what your claim is that religion should be followed from it's original context and you've quoted different interpretation to back up your claim, however as poster Javelin has stated and others as well (well partly)? using those sources as a basis to understand the context etc. what doesn't make sense about that, not saying your claims are wrong.
However surely that's like using statistics to measure how good a cricketer etc. is, don't you think? It works both ways. It seems what you are claiming which is fair is based on ignoring the context of events. What do you think?
I have no idea what you mean tbh...
My question was to Javelin...it was a general question as to why he believes in Islam...just curious as to whether its proof based, gut feeling, simple chance of birth...
To speak about ration as a reason for belief is leaving the question unanswered...cos one has to then explain the rationality behind the choice...not simply state that rationality influenced their choice...
Yossarian
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To you perhaps. But not to me. Read my earlier post re-'fuzzy logic' .
Here is an explanation from wiki - I'm just applying it in a religious context involving beliefs, scriptures, history, circumstances, human limitations and fallibility .....
It's not what 'brought me to Islam', that was done by my parents and grandparents. However, staying was was my choice, perhaps not in the manner prescribed.
As for the rest ..... I've made numerous posts on the topic. Besides, just as a religious belief only carries conviction to those who already believe, my views will only be fully understood by others, assuming there are others, who may hold similar views.
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Well I was just using his argument of context which I thought you disagreed with? I might have wrong.
What I was saying was the stuff you quoted Hadith etc were they not based on the context of society and that's a fair way to judge it, just like you use importance of a cricketer to the performance of the team rather than just look at the stats. Bad example, but just thought...
If that makes sense?
_oldMy question is referring to what are your beliefs based upon?...what convinces you to stay?...
What makes Islam more rational than other religions in your eyes?...or more rational than not following religion at all?...
KingKhanWC
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lol, of course it's my choice after seeing the evidence. If the evidence is otherwise I will chose to say he's the best keeper.
No it isn't.
http://www.islamicity.com/quransearch/shownote.asp?chap=2¬e=7
This is your view, considering you like to use scripture exactly which part suggests the Creator created simply for his own amusement?
If you look deep into the Islamic view the conclusion has done us a great favour by creating us and giving us as humans so many qualities. I don't know about you but I am happy that I am alive. It makes little sense to suggest an all powerful creator would create some humans for amusement, it goes against his definition.
Worship is part of the human blueprint, it brings peace and contentment according to Islam. Just like animals need food & water to live, it's not a physical requirement to sustain life but just as important if not more. Again you're not using Islamic sources which suggest otherwise, many verses clearly state God does not need human worship. The biggest reward is the pleasure of God and the biggest punishment is his displeasure. I wouldn't take the hellfire and punishment as cruel because again the verses clearly say God is just, unlike US prisons people get their justice, what they deserve.
I've not read it. Muslims believe it's the word of God, so far I haven't read any argument which is strong enough to suggest otherwise. There is no point discussing anything if you stop here.
Btw I've never understood why someone would spend so much time discussing something they don't believe in?
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Well I was just using his argument of context which I thought you disagreed with? I might have wrong.
What I was saying was the stuff you quoted Hadith etc were they not based on the context of society and that's a fair way to judge it, just like you use importance of a cricketer to the performance of the team rather than just look at the stats. Bad example, but just thought...
If that makes sense?
Hadith assessment is a science...its based on chains of narration...
KingKhanWC
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Islam makes it clear men aren't allowed to have sexual relations with any woman who is against it.
You really don't have a clue. Raping of slave girls was forbidden as rape of any woman is forbidden. Great scholars such as Iman Malik and Imam Al-Shaafi both believed not only should the perpetrator should be punished for raping a slave girl but should also pay a financial penalty. There is a famous hadith where one Muslim did abuse a slave girl to which Umar bin al-Khatab ordered a physical punishment.
Bro it's idiotic to suggest Islam allows rape.
I've not read it. Muslims believe it's the word of God, so far I haven't read any argument which is strong enough to suggest otherwise. There is no point discussing anything if you stop here.
Btw I've never understood why someone would spend so much time discussing something they don't believe in?[/QUOTE]
You are convinced by evidence...that is not a choice...I am not convinced by the 'evidence'...hence I can't believe...in a debate of any sort you are convinced of an idea...you don't choose which arguments to believe...the way your brain functions, your experiences, the type of person you are, your access to information will all determine how you process the information and judge it...these aren't choices...these are reactions...
As for purpose...there is no rational reason in my view...what favour has been done for me exactly?...animals have no afterlife...their actions are purposeless...why should I have to pass a test i have no interest in taking?...God is bored so he creates people...he gives them a vague message which the majority of the world reject...and that majority he will then leave to burn for eternity...yep that sounds rational and merciful and not the least bit narcissistic...
The idea of closing hearts...im not buying it tbf...it goes back to the notion of choice...the presumption that people willfully reject the message...its actually a lot easier to believe in something...it gives you comfort and purpose...the notion that it is easier to be in disbelief is nonsense...if people were convinced of ideas they would follow them...people just aren't convinced...and its a lot easier to speak of their arrogance and rejection of evidence when in fact for the most part they are not convinced...
Muslims believe it is the word of God because the Quran itself is deemed a literary miracle...read Hamza Tsortsis on this...he goes into quite a bit of detail on the subject but its flawed imho...because it is based on subjective criteria...eg - eloquence is deemed miraculous but eloquence is subjective...the idea of inimitability is a flawed idea cos essentially everything is inimitible...is Messi God because no one can imitate him...as a teacher I have students with their own inimitable style of writing...these are just a couple of examples...how also does the Non arab linguist even assess this claim?...its not accessible for the layman...how can you convince me it is inimitable or miraculous when you can't even analyse an Arabic text...one can't even assess the miracle itself without having to resort to others who claim it is indeed miraculous...when someone says the Quran is poorly written and uneloquent how does one assess that without being a linguist?...
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Simple question...are Muslims permitted to have sex with their slaves...yes or no?...
Any form of sexual relation between a master and slave is non consensual...
This isn't only Islam's issue...it wasn't that long ago in the UK where a man couldn't be judged to rape his wife...because the presumption was that the husband had a right to have sex with his wife...Islam states you have the right to have sex with your slave...if your slave you have purchased says yes does that mean yes?...
Its funny you mention Shafii...he permits forced marriage...now where is the notion of consent there?...
Yossarian
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Surely my various posts, both in this thread as well as others, are fairly clear on my views on Islam. And why they are what they are.
In your case, however, as you've stated, you don't believe in Islam (anymore) since you do not accept (anymore) that God was involved in its creation.
And yet, at every opportunity, you appear to push the claim that there is absolute uninimity on their interpretations and understandings, whilst conveniently ignoring the fact that if there was such a consensus and uninimity there would be no sects, no branches, no separate schools of thought ...., and there would be just the one understanding of Islam, with none, from Shias, to Sunni's, from 'extremists' to 'moderates', claiming themselves to be the only ones following the only 'true' path, and thus, by definition, all others to be incorrect, mistaken or completely wrong.
In others words, someone who has decided to leave telling all others who remain that they can only do so if they accept the particular set of rules he previously prescribed to.
Cpt. Rishwat
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How is that a science?
James
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Essentially, it's pretty strange. What confuses me is that I don't even know why he cares. lol
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Yossarian
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I see it as follows:
Those who convert from another religion, or no religion at all, often do so because they have developed a disdain for the religion or culture they were brought up in, perhaps due to some negative experiences in their life leading them to look elsewhere to find comfort, meaning, purpose and value.
Prisons have proven fertile ground for conversions for men. Some worry that those who convert in jail are exposed to more radical strains of Islam, whilst others worry that converts in general are more vulnerable than others to radical kinds of Islam because they know little about the religion's different traditions.
A “confirmation bias” might then kick in, where the newly converted dig themselves deeper and deeper into their beliefs, and embark on intensive study of the scriptures.
There are a multitude of reasons why converts then leave. It is estimated that between 50% to 75% of converts leave the religion they joyfully converted to. In the case of Islam, more women converts than their male equivalents leave Islam, primarily due to the fact that many of them only converted as a prequisite to marrying a muslim and thus many leave if/when the marriage ends.
One thing though is very common amongst ex-converts. In a mirror image to when they converted, they now feel the need to justify their leaving.
Shaykh seems to be taking the route of damning with faint praise.
Eagle_Eye
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Shaykh - which religiious background you were brought up in?
KB-24
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Khilafah bros at their best. Allah's chosen envoys in judge and jury shocker
Seems you've pretty much got nothing else to say rather then the lame discrediting tactics.
Javelin's arguments aren't based on the Qur'an neither the Sunnah, so my statement was accurate. But then again you wouldn't know being clueless about it. I suggest staying out of it when you have no idea about the subject matter.
chacha kashmiri
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In the Quran it states specifically to not force oneself onto concubines and if you do so, to ask forgiveness from Allah.
There are three different ayahs in the Quran where it states specifically not to force oneself onto war captives
Moreover in Islam, war captives had the same rights as women in that they had the rights to be fed, clothed and to have houses over their head
and when they gave birth to children, they and both the child became free
Concubines was not something Islam introduced just as polygamy was not , but a practice which Islam made much apprehensible for women and women captives.
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How common is polygamy in Pakistan in this day and age?
Saw this article in Dawn and thought would ask of any people who know of friends/family who have had more than one wife at a time.
===
The Supreme Court has upheld a judgement of the Peshawar High Court (PHC) ordering a man to immediately pay mehr (dower) to his first wife for contracting a second marriage without her permission.
The order released on Wednesday was issued on a petition filed by Muhammad Jamil against a 2018 PHC judgement regarding a suit filed by his ex-wife Sajida Bibi seeking the recovery of mehr, dowry articles, gold ornaments and maintenance.
A two-judge bench, comprising Justice Umar Ata Bandial and Justice Sayyed Mazahar Ali Akbar Naqvi, observed in its judgement that Jamil had contracted a second marriage while being married to Bibi without her permission or that of the Arbitration Council.
Section 6 of the Muslim Family Laws Ordinance, 1961, prohibits contracting second marriage without prior permission in writing of the Arbitration Council, the court noted.
ARTICLE CONTINUES AFTER AD
It said by entering into the second marriage without the permission of his first wife and the Arbitration Council, Jamil was liable to pay her the dower immediately under Section 6(5)(a) of the Muslim Family Laws Ordinance, 1961.
The said section reads, "Any man who contracts another marriage without the permission of the Arbitration Council shall [...] pay immediate the entire amount of dower whether prompt or deferred, due to the existing wife or wives which amount, if not so paid shall be recoverable as arrears of land revenue."
"It is now abundantly clear that the entire amount of dower fixed at the time of marriage whether prompt or deferred is immediately payable on account of second marriage," the top court said in its judgement.
Noting that the provision of Section 6 of the Muslim Family Laws Ordinance is in consonance with the injunctions of Islam, the judgement noted that the law "has not placed any restriction to contract second marriage, rather it only relates to seeking permission before entering into second marriage in order to regulate the structure of society as a whole".
It said any deviation from the provision of Section 6 might result in a "number of issues" which would "frustrate the fabric of relationship within society".
After hearing arguments from both sides, the SC ruled that the judgement by a single bench of the PHC ordering the immediate payment of dower of five tolas of gold is "quite in accordance with [the] law".
The petition was subsequently dismissed.
https://www.dawn.com/news/1576586/m...ing-second-marriage-without-her-permission-sc
Saw this article in Dawn and thought would ask of any people who know of friends/family who have had more than one wife at a time.
===
The Supreme Court has upheld a judgement of the Peshawar High Court (PHC) ordering a man to immediately pay mehr (dower) to his first wife for contracting a second marriage without her permission.
The order released on Wednesday was issued on a petition filed by Muhammad Jamil against a 2018 PHC judgement regarding a suit filed by his ex-wife Sajida Bibi seeking the recovery of mehr, dowry articles, gold ornaments and maintenance.
A two-judge bench, comprising Justice Umar Ata Bandial and Justice Sayyed Mazahar Ali Akbar Naqvi, observed in its judgement that Jamil had contracted a second marriage while being married to Bibi without her permission or that of the Arbitration Council.
Section 6 of the Muslim Family Laws Ordinance, 1961, prohibits contracting second marriage without prior permission in writing of the Arbitration Council, the court noted.
ARTICLE CONTINUES AFTER AD
It said by entering into the second marriage without the permission of his first wife and the Arbitration Council, Jamil was liable to pay her the dower immediately under Section 6(5)(a) of the Muslim Family Laws Ordinance, 1961.
The said section reads, "Any man who contracts another marriage without the permission of the Arbitration Council shall [...] pay immediate the entire amount of dower whether prompt or deferred, due to the existing wife or wives which amount, if not so paid shall be recoverable as arrears of land revenue."
"It is now abundantly clear that the entire amount of dower fixed at the time of marriage whether prompt or deferred is immediately payable on account of second marriage," the top court said in its judgement.
Noting that the provision of Section 6 of the Muslim Family Laws Ordinance is in consonance with the injunctions of Islam, the judgement noted that the law "has not placed any restriction to contract second marriage, rather it only relates to seeking permission before entering into second marriage in order to regulate the structure of society as a whole".
It said any deviation from the provision of Section 6 might result in a "number of issues" which would "frustrate the fabric of relationship within society".
After hearing arguments from both sides, the SC ruled that the judgement by a single bench of the PHC ordering the immediate payment of dower of five tolas of gold is "quite in accordance with [the] law".
The petition was subsequently dismissed.
https://www.dawn.com/news/1576586/m...ing-second-marriage-without-her-permission-sc
Kroll
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This may all sound great for a man, but how would a woman feel about it?
The other complication is the fact that man can actually get married again without notifying his first wife or other wives.
Of course, there is also the fact that in all or most western countries polygamy isn't allowed by law but it is allowed under sharia law, whereby in Muslim countries it would be permissible.
As a Muslim, I can't question the infinite wisdom of Allah swt but as a human with finite wisdom, does this not somehow lessen the value of a woman's status in marriage or status in general.
What are your thoughts?
The other complication is the fact that man can actually get married again without notifying his first wife or other wives.
Of course, there is also the fact that in all or most western countries polygamy isn't allowed by law but it is allowed under sharia law, whereby in Muslim countries it would be permissible.
As a Muslim, I can't question the infinite wisdom of Allah swt but as a human with finite wisdom, does this not somehow lessen the value of a woman's status in marriage or status in general.
What are your thoughts?
uberkoen
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A woman's status in Islam is anyway half of that as a man. Look at the rules around witness or inheritance
uberkoen
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Right. I'm sure everyone was asking permissions from their slave girls before bedding them. Or maybe they weren't or were just asking for forgiveness later.
Can't believe there are people on here defending slavery.
uberkoen
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“Your wives are a place of sowing of seed for you, so come to your place of cultivation however you wish and make an introduction for yourselves. And fear Allah and know that you will meet Him. And give good tidings to the believers." 2:223
This is why marital rape isn't a crime in most Muslim countries as your wives are termed as your possession in Islam and you can do whatever you want with your possession and if they don't listen to you, you can beat them (but lightly
)“Your wives are a place of sowing of seed for you, so come to your place of cultivation however you wish and make an introduction for yourselves. And fear Allah and know that you will meet Him. And give good tidings to the believers." 2:223
This is why marital rape isn't a crime in most Muslim countries as your wives are termed as your possession in Islam and you can do whatever you want with your possession and if they don't listen to you, you can beat them (but lightly
Oh good you got in the”lightly” part.
Madplayer
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I'm not expert on laws of inheritence but I think you're a bit unfair here. As an accepted norm in Islamic societies, the woman is also a wife and has a share in her husband's wealth apart from the share of inheritence from her parents. It kind of evens out in the end. Yes you could argue that what if a woman doesn't marry? Then she obviously is in a disadvantageous position in terms of what she gets. However, an unmarried woman is not a norm in an Islamic society and laws are always bent towards the norm.
Bigboii
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If women get half the inheritance and half a witnesses (that too in only a minority, specific kind of cases there are tons of cases where women are counted as normal witnesses)
Does that mean women status is half that of a man? I don't think so
Madplayer
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In the western countries, one man dates muliple women at the same time without anybody raising a finger. But the problem is when the more than 1 women are married to one man and given status of wives. Well, to each their own.
Ofcourse i wouldn't want to promote polygamy. I believe in this day and age 1 man cannot even handle one woman properly and be just to her. There is no way he will be just to more than 1 wives.
More than one marriage could be stopped by putting it in the marriage contract anyway. This right isnt exercised due to social taboos but that's not the religion's problem. There are so many other criteria which need to be met for a second marriage but are too technical and i only have superfical knowledge of it.
Kroll
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I agree, and it could probably seem quite weird to see man with more than one wife if it's something you're not used to seeing.
There's probably the case that a lot of young would be unaware of putting something like banning her husband from taking another wife in the marriage contract or that the elders wouldn't discuss it pre-hand.
I think the criteria you're referring to is a bit like the EULA for software where you don't really read it before ticking the box and moving on.
Hence, the second marriage could be for reasons that are not in line with the Islamic principles that the permission was originally intended for back in the old world middle ages.
Madplayer
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Yes and there is another, a bit vague criteria that you have to be fair to all wives otherwise you will be accountable infront of Allah. Now, a God fearing person would be scared to take another wife due to this. But it is laughable to think that people will actually think of such qualitiative aspects of the subject these days.
And sociologically speaking, it depends on the society too. In older times when there were more wars and more men in the tribes were killed, the widows/daughters of widows needed support and hence this option was kept open in order to limit them turning to evils like prostitution etc.
ElRaja
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the strongest males tend to have the most females, whether in animals or humans. i don't agree with polygamy in practical terms, but I don't think it is something fundamentally wrong either. it is a natural biological leaning in animals.
also given the choice between sharing a man who can provide security for her and her children, and stay out of her hair 75% of the time, or having a man who needs to be provided for 100% of the time (i know, extreme example), i'm pretty sure a not insignificant amount of women would choose the first option. or maybe i'm wrong, maybe some female members can comment.
the system is only really a problem when women are married into such arrangements in deals between the men who control them, but that would an issue of any marriage, not just polygamous marriages.
also given the choice between sharing a man who can provide security for her and her children, and stay out of her hair 75% of the time, or having a man who needs to be provided for 100% of the time (i know, extreme example), i'm pretty sure a not insignificant amount of women would choose the first option. or maybe i'm wrong, maybe some female members can comment.
the system is only really a problem when women are married into such arrangements in deals between the men who control them, but that would an issue of any marriage, not just polygamous marriages.
This what happens when you get information from anti Islam sites.
Lurker_Ind
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[MENTION=107753]uberkoen[/MENTION] is correct.
A women's witness in court is only half of that of man's witness. it takes 2 women to equal a man's witness in Islam. Women are deficient in their brain and hence majority of them will be in hell.
Kroll
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Nope.
You're referring to a specific legal issue which there is some dispute as there are in various interpretations of religious texts.
So you can't just turn up and say woman's status is half of man by some ill conceived judgement/prejudice or ignorance.
Itachi
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Which interpretation is correct?
topspin
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I appreciate this was raised by you 7 years ago but I have to commend you for coming up with these questions. Sad to see hardly anyone was able to address these.
KingKhanWC
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“Your wives are a place of sowing of seed for you, so come to your place of cultivation however you wish and make an introduction for yourselves. And fear Allah and know that you will meet Him. And give good tidings to the believers." 2:223
This is why marital rape isn't a crime in most Muslim countries as your wives are termed as your possession in Islam and you can do whatever you want with your possession and if they don't listen to you, you can beat them (but lightly
lol it doesnt mean you can rape them by force.
There are many other texts which show you must be gentle towards the wife.
Your understanding of Islam is childish and idiotic.
Kroll
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The one you want it to be.
Lurker_Ind
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can you post any reference or link regarding specific legal issue?
Lurker_Ind
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What does it mean when the verse says that Wife can be cultivated as you wish? So women are just a field to be cultivated?
Cpt. Rishwat
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What's wrong with a field getting cultivated? It is this sort of cherishing and nurture which leads to the wholesome food being produced which you and I both rely on.
KingKhanWC
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It means, do no only approach your wives ONLY for pleasure but remember they will be mothers of your children, they will give you offspring , so approach them with care.
A lot of cultures treat women very badly today, Islam was far ahead of its time. Do you know how women were treated 1400 years ago in India or England? Like pieces of flesh to use as pleasure.
Lurker_Ind
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How did you get that from the verse? It says Women are field and you can cultivate them as you wish. It did not say be careful with your cultivation or respect your wife when you have sex.
Why bring India or England into this? Stick to the topic.
KingKhanWC
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Your an Indian athiest, Im a Muslim. This is what it means, sorry it doesnt fit your anti-Islamic narrative.
Islam treated women better 1400 years than Indians and many English do today.
Lurker_Ind
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Plow them at will means give them respect? lol
Another one getting his information from anti Islam websites.
Lol that's what happens when you get information from anti Islam website. No background or context copy and paste. They ignore what it don't suit them definetly childish and idiotic.
Lurker_Ind
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Can you post what it means from a pro-islamic website?
I guess burying them alive does which is common in India.
Lurker_Ind
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Following is from Sunnah.com site. Does it satisfy for being pro-islamic?
Narrated Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri:
The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said, "Yes." He said, "This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind."
حَدَّثَنَا ابْنُ أَبِي مَرْيَمَ، أَخْبَرَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ جَعْفَرٍ، قَالَ أَخْبَرَنِي زَيْدٌ، عَنْ عِيَاضِ بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ، عَنْ أَبِي سَعِيدٍ الْخُدْرِيِّ ـ رضى الله عنه ـ عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ " أَلَيْسَ شَهَادَةُ الْمَرْأَةِ مِثْلَ نِصْفِ شَهَادَةِ الرَّجُلِ ". قُلْنَا بَلَى. قَالَ " فَذَلِكَ مِنْ نُقْصَانِ عَقْلِهَا ".
Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 2658
In-book reference : Book 52, Hadith 22
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 3, Book 48, Hadith 826
(deprecated numbering scheme)
Narrated Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri:
The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said, "Yes." He said, "This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind."
حَدَّثَنَا ابْنُ أَبِي مَرْيَمَ، أَخْبَرَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ جَعْفَرٍ، قَالَ أَخْبَرَنِي زَيْدٌ، عَنْ عِيَاضِ بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ، عَنْ أَبِي سَعِيدٍ الْخُدْرِيِّ ـ رضى الله عنه ـ عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ " أَلَيْسَ شَهَادَةُ الْمَرْأَةِ مِثْلَ نِصْفِ شَهَادَةِ الرَّجُلِ ". قُلْنَا بَلَى. قَالَ " فَذَلِكَ مِنْ نُقْصَانِ عَقْلِهَا ".
Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 2658
In-book reference : Book 52, Hadith 22
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 3, Book 48, Hadith 826
(deprecated numbering scheme)
You can use the same search engine for which you use anti Islam sites. It's not hard belive me just need to take your hatred and find it from an Islam's perpespective.
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Lurker_Ind
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Not sure where burying women alive in India is practiced. If it is, it should be condemned for sure. Why do you bring India into the picture?
Lurker_Ind
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Look at post #543 please.
Why are you using information which only suits you and ignore the rest without context or background? You were talking about rights to women Islam have given them to women's 1400 years ago. Before pointing fingers at Islam look at your country first. The rape Centre of the world.
Just like how if found this with a bit more effort you can find the context and background too.
Itachi
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And until and unless it isn't from Islam's perspective, it isn't the "correct" one. Right?
That’s some mental gymnastics right there
You just have to look at GEI. Gender equality index To see where pakistan stands and where muslim countries in general rank.
KingKhanWC
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ITs embarrasing to debate with.
Esp if you look the almost non-existant of morals towards women in India and secular nations where they are seen as sexual beings rather than humans. Allhamdulliah Islam was far civilised 1400 years ago, than modern western or extremist societies such as India.
Lurker_Ind
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Stop bringing India into this discussion. This is not about India or US or Europe.
In any context, a woman’s testimony should be no less than a man’s testimony. Don’t use the 1400 years old logic on me. This is the final message of almighty for all times. So time period is irrelevant.
India has no leg to stand on when it comes to treatment of women. That’s the truth. Islam brought something new 1400 years ago. Something that europe was far behind in. However muslim countries are still living in the 7tj century where as Europe has moved further with women rights. Just look at the GEI. Pakistan is in bottom 3 I think.
Lurker_Ind
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Till now the comebacks from apologists is
1) You don’t know context
2) India is rape capital
3) Islam is better even at 1400 years ago
4) You are atheist.
How about post the context from an Islamic Tafsir? We can all learn something we don’t know.
By the way here is the link that counters your argument.
Pakistan ranked 151 out of 153 countries on the Global Gender Gap Index Report 2020 index, published by the World Economic Forum (WEF) on Tuesday, only managing to surpass Iraq and Yemen.Dec 17, 2019
https://www.dawn.com/news/1522778#:~:text=Pakistan ranked 151 out of,to surpass Iraq and Yemen.
Pakistan ranked 151 out of 153 countries on the Global Gender Gap Index Report 2020 index, published by the World Economic Forum (WEF) on Tuesday, only managing to surpass Iraq and Yemen.Dec 17, 2019
https://www.dawn.com/news/1522778#:~:text=Pakistan ranked 151 out of,to surpass Iraq and Yemen.
Cpt. Rishwat
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Only for those who think there is something wrong in a field getting cultivated.
I think other than you and king, rest of the muslim population has interpreted it in a different way. Hence the abysmal condition of women in muslim countries. Do look up at the link above.
Cpt. Rishwat
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Not interested in your links, I was answering the question put by the hindu about cultivating fields. Now you want to dive off into another direction because that answer was not to your liking, but I cannot apologise for answering it sincerely.
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Bigboii
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My philosophy is constitution and Quran are the most perfect documents to have ever existed and they transcend times and just like justices interoperate constitution its the job of Muftis to interoperate Quran and you can have different views on what it means but the fundamental rules are there for a reason and how I dare I question the fundamentals of these documents if it says it goes I don't give it a second thought on why its there ( sure interpretation can be something that you can question but not question the law never!)
Cause once you start going that route you can destroy the religion cause its not something that you can pick, choose or add if you start doing that this Beautiful building will collapse
I have a strict rule for myself to never question Quran since its far beyond my understanding as a person only think that can be questioned is the interpretation
(of course as a Muslim I hold Quran in a way higher regard than constitution because its the word of Allah)
Cause once you start going that route you can destroy the religion cause its not something that you can pick, choose or add if you start doing that this Beautiful building will collapse
I have a strict rule for myself to never question Quran since its far beyond my understanding as a person only think that can be questioned is the interpretation
(of course as a Muslim I hold Quran in a way higher regard than constitution because its the word of Allah)
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