Why are UK Hindus against a caste law?

[TSA321]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38663143

India's caste system is thought to be among the world's oldest surviving forms of social stratification. However, some British Asians say they still experience discrimination due to their caste. So, why are so many Hindu bodies in the UK opposed to this being made illegal?

Sudesh Rani was shopping in the Home Counties two years ago when she experienced such discrimination first hand.

The 42-year-old from Bedford identifies herself as Ravidassia - a group regarded by some as at the lower end of the caste system. She says she was in a supermarket when two women began verbally abusing her.

"They started calling me a low caste chamar (a derogatory term used to describe an individual belonging to a low caste), a dirty *****.
"At that time, I got a bit frightened, I thought 'no, no this can't be happening.'"

She said the women, who had seen her at a wedding previously, followed her and her nine-year-old son to her car.
"There were two of them and one of them was going to hit me, I thought they were going to really rip me apart.

"My son kept asking - 'mummy - what is a dirty chamar? Is that a swear word?'"

Ms Rani says the police did not know how to handle her complaint, because they had no idea about caste. Campaigners say cases like this highlight why caste legislation is needed in the UK.

In 2010, conversations began in the House of Lords about making caste discrimination illegal. A clause proposed for the Equality Act is currently awaiting the result of a public consultation.
However, many Hindu organisations are against legislation. Why?

The caste system is thought to be an ancient Indian social hierarchy and a defining feature of Hinduism.

It is described as a hierarchy of four varnas - or caste categories - found in Hindu scriptures, with brahmins (priests and teachers) at the top, followed by kshatriyas (rulers and soldiers), vaishyas (merchants and traders) and the shudras (labourers and artisans).

Beneath them all are the dalits - so-called "untouchables" - who are completely excluded from society.
However, there is controversy over the extent to which caste is a feature of Hindu religion.

Some academics have claimed the caste system was introduced in its current guise during colonial rule in an attempt by the British authorities to classify and better understand the Indian society they were governing.
They assert that Indians have started behaving as if part of a caste hierarchy as a result of being taught to.

Legislating on caste is complex business, not least as many Hindus do not accept caste is an integral feature of the Hindu religion.
As a result, there are many who would prefer the issue remain under the radar.

Satish Sharma, chair of the National Council of Hindu Temples, is firmly against the proposed legislation.

While he believes there is no justification for caste-based discrimination, he believes the caste system has nothing to do with his religion and that any new law will present the issue as a Hindu problem.

He, along with a number of Hindus, maintains that the caste system as it exists now has more to do with the centuries of British colonial rule than ancient religion.

"This is not something that is part and parcel of our beliefs and ideologies," he says. "Our scriptures and our recent history up until a few hundred years ago didn't have this caste system in there. This is being directed at us, this has been put around our necks.

"Without even thinking about what it means, you automatically now gain the reaction 'dirty Hindus', that we're terrible and have savage ideals, that's what's automatically invoked whenever you mention caste. It's not part of our culture and we don't want it introduced."

Mr Sharma is concerned about what he says is a lack of evidence for caste discrimination in the UK. He believes there is a "Hinduphobic" agenda behind those pushing for caste legislation that is leading to Hindus being unfairly discriminated against.

"There has been this assumption that Hindus are casteist and I have recently heard what I think is an outrageously prejudicial term, where groups who are not dalits are now being referred to as 'caste supremacists'."

But groups that represent victims of caste discrimination say they are not interested in the origins of the caste system, but instead want a new law to protect people.

"The Hindus - they need to actually do some soul searching on this and be honest with themselves and try and confront this thing," says Satpal Muman, from CasteWatch UK.

Nevertheless, he believes Hindus that claim the caste system does not originate in their faith have to confront their past.

"I do not understand why the Hindus want to oppose this call for equality. The only thing I can surmise from it is that they don't believe in equality. They want to perpetuate inequality so I really don't understand their mindset on this.

"Why the Hindus feel so victimised is beyond my imagination. They have to see the truth for what it is, you have to call a spade a spade. If you are unable to face the historical truth then you will never be able to resolve this issue."

Campaigners calling for caste discrimination legislation estimate there are up to half a million dalits in the UK who could be at risk of caste prejudice.
However, caste is not included in the census and there are no precise figures available.

Another issue complicating attempts at legislation is the fact many British Indians are unable to identify exactly where they fit in the fourfold hierarchy.
The experience of Dina Bhudia, a 42-year-old British Hindu, is typical of many.

She recalls learning about the caste system in religious education classes at school but is unable to reconcile it with her personal experience of her religion.

"I've never learnt about the caste hierarchy from any priest or temple," she says.

"They are not sitting there saying, 'right, us brahmins are here and you kshatriyas are there.'

"Technically I'm at the bottom of the pyramid. My granddad was a farmer, my dad was a bus driver, I'm a financial adviser - where do I fit in?"

For Ms Rani though, facing abuse because of her caste is something she still finds difficult to come to terms with.

"I was shocked and upset [after being abused], my son didn't sleep for days, nor did I.

"I've grown up here, I'm well educated, why should we have to suffer? We are just the same as everybody else."

 

[junoon]

Jatt sikhs living in UK and Canada also have an excessive sense of pride and arrogance even though their religion is against the caste system and discrimination

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDeFoQ9jdxc

The songs they sing about their bravery and valor are hilarious

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7QaF-KZnjo

 

[srh]

caste system is part of Hinduism so I would expect majority of hindus to support it. Am I missing something here?

 

[JaDed]

Why is it specific to caste discrimination and not just discrimination based on any basis? Don't they have discrimination laws as such in UK?

 

[JaDed]

caste system is part of Hinduism so I would expect majority of hindus to support it. Am I missing something here?

"Discrimination" ,irrespective of it being part of whatever no one should be allowed to discriminate unless u r trolling.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I don't really understand the objection of the Hindu Council to any laws to prevent caste based discrimination. If as they claim, the caste based hierarchy was introduced by British Colonialism, why would they object to moves that would make it unlawful?

 

[SandyB]

Good that this is out in the open.. !

All those "proud desi's" out there, try to paint a rosy picture of India overseas.. Ooohh dancing, bollywood, food, history , yoga..!! It was all fine till the europeans came and sc###ed us over !!

A good number of those Indian's , like the ones who voted trump in US , feel they had to leave India because , Independent India was unfair to them :ie, The power and privilege they enjoyed in the India of the past (AKA the CASTE SYSTEM) was being neutralized by modern India..

So what do they do ?, The move abroad, away from the Un-justness (!) and go set up their own Mini-India's in their foreign neighbourhoods.. Where they only need to mingle with their OWN ! and not have to socialise or send their kids to school alongside the "OTHERS" (read lower castes )..

The problem happens when the India of one caste intersects with the India of another , that's when you get incidents like these..

An then we have the gall to lecture white people on treating people fairly !!

 

[enkidu_]

Ancient varna system was more fluid. You can see in some Upanishads beginnings of "democratization" talks, in the sense that a Brahmane is the one who knows Brahma (spiritual realization) and not the one who's born Brahman. The Buddha had the same message of course. What we call "the caste system" is a product of the end of the Gupta empire, called the Hindu Golden Age, in the 6th century : as it's usual, when a civilization desegregate, there are "conservative" spasms overtaking peoples' mind. Here it was the "solidification" of the varna system.

Hindus can return to such configuration without particularly falling under the spell of "Western modernity", which would kill Hinduism as a whole on the longer run (look at Christianity there nowadays).

It was all fine till the europeans came and sc###ed us over !!

Well it was. In pre modern period peoples had no problem with the caste because everything was in place. But the capitalist-liberal bourgeois mindset, which permeated India with the Anglo imperialism, brought a sense of "individualism", everyone has forgotten the sense of hierarchy, the Brahman acts like a Vaishya and the Shudra thinks he's a glorious Kshatriya. Now postmodernism is even worse : men act like women and vice versa. Do you see that in the natural order ? A chimpanzee is not a gorilla and so on.

Traditional Indian civilization was superior to Europe in every modern way, that's why Europe's brightest minds thought so, from Schopenhauer to TS Eliot and many others in-between.

Read books from Dharampal to have a truer picture.

 

[mani1]

Jatt sikhs living in UK and Canada also have an excessive sense of pride and arrogance even though their religion is against the caste system and discrimination

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDeFoQ9jdxc

The songs they sing about their bravery and valor are hilarious

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7QaF-KZnjo

I have heard this too from the Jats and the others, apparently they don't even let the "Low class" Sikhs in there temple's.

 

[Pollack]

Some quality nonsense here. The lady in the op is clearly overexagerrating. I don't believe going to hit part even a bit. Icing on the cake is Upper Castes moved to abroad because they could no longer Supress lower caste in India as claimed by a fellow poster below.. ) ) )

 

[Yossarian]

Jatt sikhs living in UK and Canada also have an excessive sense of pride and arrogance even though their religion is against the caste system and discrimination

A Sikh colleague (who was a devout Sikh, to the extent that he even tried to get the senior management to allow him to wear a real knife (kirpan) under his clothes as opposed to the plastic one that he was permitted to wear) used to tell us that Sikhs were re-born (reincarnated) after they died, and depending upon their deeds during their lifetime, they were re-born into a "higher" or "lower" caste after their deaths. ie There is a pecking order and you move up or down the ladder only after dying and being reborn again.

 

[Yossarian]

caste system is part of Hinduism so I would expect majority of hindus to support it. Am I missing something here?

I couldn't find the original source of this (it was written decades ago, but it does appear to give quite an accurate description of the caste system).

A status segregation grown into caste differs in its structure from a mere `ethnic’ segregation; the caste structure transforms the horizontal and unconnected coexistences of ethnically segregated groups into a vertical social system of superordination and subordination …․ethnic coexistences condition a mutual repulsion and disdain but allow each ethnic community to consider its own honor as the highest one; the caste structure brings out a social subordination and an acknowledgement of ‘more honor’ in favour of privileged castes and status groups

 

[JaDed]

Ancient varna system was more fluid. You can see in some Upanishads beginnings of "democratization" talks, in the sense that a Brahmane is the one who knows Brahma (spiritual realization) and not the one who's born Brahman. The Buddha had the same message of course. What we call "the caste system" is a product of the end of the Gupta empire, called the Hindu Golden Age, in the 6th century : as it's usual, when a civilization desegregate, there are "conservative" spasms overtaking peoples' mind. Here it was the "solidification" of the varna system.

Hindus can return to such configuration without particularly falling under the spell of "Western modernity", which would kill Hinduism as a whole on the longer run (look at Christianity there nowadays).



Well it was. In pre modern period peoples had no problem with the caste because everything was in place. But the capitalist-liberal bourgeois mindset, which permeated India with the Anglo imperialism, brought a sense of "individualism", everyone has forgotten the sense of hierarchy, the Brahman acts like a Vaishya and the Shudra thinks he's a glorious Kshatriya. Now postmodernism is even worse : men act like women and vice versa. Do you see that in the natural order ? A chimpanzee is not a gorilla and so on.

Traditional Indian civilization was superior to Europe in every modern way, that's why Europe's brightest minds thought so, from Schopenhauer to TS Eliot and many others in-between.

Read books from Dharampal to have a truer picture.

Everyone knows this,there have been enough debates on this,but this is a curse there is a reason the say is
"People don't caste their vote, they vote their caste".

The caste situation has gotten so complicated that is not even funny,even traditionally "jats" "rajputs" that weren't part of castes are now part of the same.
Similar to Vaaniyars in the south who have a mix of something like Vaaniyar-kshtariya,etc etc.

Its a disaster to say the least and western progressive ideas sadly have to be laid upon here.

 

[JaDed]

A Sikh colleague (who was a devout Sikh, to the extent that he even tried to get the senior management to allow him to wear a real knife (kirpan) under his clothes as opposed to the plastic one that he was permitted to wear) used to tell us that Sikhs were re-born (reincarnated) after they died, and depending upon their deeds during their lifetime, they were re-born into a "higher" or "lower" caste after their deaths. ie There is a pecking order and you move up or down the ladder only after dying and being reborn again.

There is nothing like that in any book on caste,at max this is what the saying is according to wiki that too

The doctrines of Sikhism teach that the soul exists, and is passed from one body to another in endless cycles of Saṃsāra, until liberation. Each birth begins karma (karam), these actions leave a karni (karmic signature) on one's soul which influences rebirth states Sikhism, but it is God whose grace that liberates.[195] The way out of the reincarnation cycle, asserts Sikhism, is to live an ethical life, devote oneself to God and constantly remember God's name.[195]

 

[JaDed]

Some quality nonsense here. The lady in the op is clearly overexagerrating. I don't believe going to hit part even a bit. Icing on the cake is Upper Castes moved to abroad because they could no longer Supress lower caste in India as claimed by a fellow poster below.. ) ) )

The lady in the op might be exaggerating but its not an exaggeration of the situation in many parts of India.

 

[big_gamer007]

People are so insecure in who they are that they try and feel superior by using such systems.. Ultimately you are a human try and do something worthwhile for which people look up to you rather than hiding behind such systems to hide your insecurities..

The caste system is very much prevalent in India even in top urban cities.. You might not see people abuse lower caste people in cities but you will see people marry into same caste, people voting for same caste, bonding with others on basis of caste.. pretty sad really but that's how mentality of Indians is cant help it..

 

[CricketCartoons]

The lady in the op might be exaggerating but its not an exaggeration of the situation in many parts of India.

Especially the grand old state of Madras. The fortress of institutionalised casteism.

 

[Zak_Fan]

Many of the posters here too aren't comfortable marrying outside their caste, so I can understand where this is coming from. I can't speak for India as discrimination is a reality in a lot of places, but for the educated ones atleast, it is more of the case where they are culturally bound to caste system and it doesn't have to be discriminatory in nature.

 

[SandyB]

I don't mean that the higher castes consciously are all trying to subjugate the lower castes. !

Think about the race situation in the USA.. Many white people , especially in southern states , who have been conditioned to see & treat Black people as slaves for almost 300-400 years, still have difficulty accepting Blacks as equal citizens..

Think about the vitriol that Obama had to face simply by virtue of being a Black president. Many say that Trump was a kind of backlash to a white presidency..

Now think about India, a social system that was so strong and prevalent here for a better part of 1500 years, would have left FAR STRONGER IMPRINTS on peoples minds and psyches. !

To many these discriminatory thoughts come by second nature, almost unconsciously in many cases. Our minds are already conditioned to see and judge people in a certain way upon identifying the caste hierarchy.. If you think that education /employment has removed such mindsets from ALL PEOPLE you haven't traveled enough through India or are far too ignorant of various incidents that happen throughout the length and breadth of this country !

Once you are in a foreign land, especially for Indians who prefer to live in close knit communities , they have the opportunity to aggregate and socialize with only the kind of people they want .. This unfortunately also perpetuates the prejudices that had plagued India from far back. These feelings are wilted away better in Indian cities because people interact far better and mix better (mostly out of necessity ), to such an extend that it breaks down those existing prejudices and MAY help build new opinions ..

 

[Thivagar]

Jatt sikhs living in UK and Canada also have an excessive sense of pride and arrogance even though their religion is against the caste system and discrimination

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDeFoQ9jdxc

The songs they sing about their bravery and valor are hilarious

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7QaF-KZnjo

Why is it specific to caste discrimination and not just discrimination based on any basis? Don't they have discrimination laws as such in UK?

There are Paindos in Brampton that drive around with their number plates customized as "Jatt" "Jatt4lyf" "jatt win" and "jatt (pin code of their city)". It is hilarious and I see it often.

 

[Pollack]

The lady in the op might be exaggerating but its not an exaggeration of the situation in many parts of India.

In India Yes ofcourse.

 

[Yossarian]

There is nothing like that in any book on caste,at max this is what the saying is according to wiki that too

You are welcome to go by wiki. I'm just stating what my Sikh colleague was telling us. Incidentally, he said his religion forbade him to drink alcohol or eat meat, and the prohibition even extended to eating eggs. It was a real problem for him foodwise when he attended meetings and seminars in other European countries because the organisers didn't usually cater for his needs without having special arrangements made in advance.

 

[Yossarian]

The caste system is very much prevalent in India even in top urban cities.. You might not see people abuse lower caste people in cities but you will see people marry into same caste, people voting for same caste, bonding with others on basis of caste.. pretty sad really but that's how mentality of Indians is cant help it..

There was a documentary on tv a couple of years or so ago. It followed the fortunes of a dalit who had managed to start a business and become wealthy, to the extent that he built a small garment manufacturing plant a few miles outside his village that employed around a 100 workers from his and surrounding villages.

The vast majority of the villagers/families had lived there for generations, and over the course of time the village had been segregated into sections between the various castes, with the highest caste occupying the best area of the village, far away from the village pond used for watering cows and water buffalo.

Being a dalit, he built his mansion with his new found wealth in the dalits section of the village. But it was by far the most impressive house in the whole village.

As a dalit, he had grown up 'knowing' that his caste was at the bottom of the pecking order, to the extent that he dared not even let his shadow fall onto any member of a higher caste.

The funny thing was that his factory employed many higher caste members from his and surrounding villages! And he was their boss. But when back in the village, he was still not allowed to enter the houses of the higher castes (some of whom were his employees!), and he still had to be careful of letting his shadow fall on higher caste members (but only when back in the village, and not when at the factory) otherwise he risked creating tensions in the village!

 

[troodon]

Sad situation in India is that its not the upper caste that discriminate against Dalits and tribals.

Its the backward castes that discriminate Dalits. Fights are extremely common among them. They see each other as competitors for reserved seats.

But as usual the blame goes on Brahmins who are a minority with no number strength to effect any election result.

Political parties have no guts to mention the Backward and Other Backward Castes that dehumanize and even kill Dalits.

IMO, India belongs to Dalits and Tribals. They are the true Indians.

 

[Yossarian]

Sad situation in India is that its not the upper caste that discriminate against Dalits and tribals.

Its the backward castes that discriminate Dalits. Fights are extremely common among them. They see each other as competitors for reserved seats.

It says a lot about a society when supposedly educated individuals refer to vast sections, and the least privileged, of their country's population as being "backward".

But as usual the blame goes on Brahmins who are a minority with no number strength to effect any election result.

When it comes to the privileged and those who are at the top of the pyramid of society, sheer numbers is not a factor when it comes to running the country and controlling the masses, considering that it's them, with their wealth, influence and power that creates and forms the opinions of the masses in the first place. This doesn't just apply in countries like India and Pakistan, but applies everywhere, including in the likes of Europe and the USA. Brexit and Trumps election are proof of that.

However, when their position at the top of the pyramid is also enshrined in the religion followed by the vast majority of the population, they become truly "untouchable". (Yes, I know, "untouchables" normally refers to those at the bottom, and not those at the top, of Hindu society. Funny how words can sometimes represent the exact opposite of what they appear to mean, eg Private, fee paying schools referred to as 'public' schools)

Political parties have no guts to mention the Backward and Other Backward Castes that dehumanize and even kill Dalits.

IMO, India belongs to Dalits and Tribals. They are the true Indians.

'Backward' again.

 

[Hail-Akram]

A law against the caste system in Hindus? Probably that's the best "favor" someone could do to Hinduism. In fact I see no reason why Hindu groups in UK shouldn't thank the UK government for taking such a progressive step.

The caste system that is followed today is anyways nowhere near what the ancient religious texts prescribed. The current system is a grossly manipulated version system where a few influential people created to ensure their families and generations continue to hold influence and power while the backward majority continues to remain backward by denying them basic rights and access to resources. I can see why some people still want this system to thrive.

I know this step is impossible in India. But if UK is doing that, by all means it's a welcome step !

 

[Yossarian]

I don't really understand the objection of the Hindu Council to any laws to prevent caste based discrimination. If as they claim, the caste based hierarchy was introduced by British Colonialism, why would they object to moves that would make it unlawful?

For many desis, anything and everything brought in by the Raj was good, not bad. Surely you've heard many of the older generations saying "It was much better when the British were in charge ..."?

 

[the Great Khan]

Caste is still a major issue here in the Uk. i had a friend who wanted to get remarried and found it extremely difficult because he could only choose a girl from his caste, baradri and what not..he ended up going to India and using an agency that helped him find a girl...lots of young Hindu men and women are unmarried in the UK because finding the right partner is becoming harder and harder..many are marrying or co habiting out of their religion..or just playing the field..to the point where their numbers in the Uk are either static or declining!!

 

[daytrader]

Seattle Becomes First US City To Ban Caste Discrimination
The results of the vote could have far-reaching implications on the issue of caste discrimination in the US.
Seattle has become the first US city to outlaw caste discrimination after its local council passed a resolution, moved by an Indian-American politician and economist, to add caste to its non-discrimination policy.
The resolution moved by Kshama Sawant, an upper-caste Hindu, was approved by the Seattle City Council by six to one vote. The results of the vote could have far-reaching implications on the issue of caste discrimination in the US.

“It's official: our movement has won a historic, first-in-the-nation ban on caste discrimination in Seattle! Now we need to build a movement to spread this victory around the country,” Mr Sawant, a city council member, said soon after the resolution was voted.

Hours ahead of the vote, Indian-American Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal lent her support to the move.

"Caste discrimination has no place in society anywhere in the world, including here in America. That is why some colleges and universities have banned it on campuses, and workers are fighting for their rights and their dignity in cases involving caste discrimination,” she said.

Equality Labs, the brain behind the anti-caste discrimination resolution in Seattle and which has been spearheading a nationwide campaign said: “Love has won over hate as Seattle has become the first in the nation to ban caste discrimination. We have braved rape threats, death threats, disinformation, and bigotry.”

It has created a coalition of some 200 organisations in support of its efforts over the issue.

“Central to this coalition is a network of more than 30 anti-caste Ambedkarite organisations,” Equality Labs said. Among them are the Ambedkar King Study Circle, Ambedkar International Center, Ambedkarite Buddhist Association of Texas and Boston Study Group.

The Hindu American Foundation, which had campaigned against the resolution, said singling out South Asians and the addition of ‘caste' to the non-discrimination policy violates the very policies it now amends.

...
https://www.ndtv.com/indians-abroad...rimination-3803182#pfrom=home-ndtv_topstories