Why did Kapil Dev perform so poorly in England?

[Shandarchowka]

This is a fair statement. Kapil was definitely capable of having good days but so were many other all rounders like Freddie Flintoff! However, the greatest all rounders had consistently good days and don'tget whipped in 6 of the 9 countries that they played in. This is why I am questioning whether he is merely an Indian Great or someone who scrapes into the ATG All rounder debate. At the moment, I am more inclined to say he is not an ATG!

He may certainly be an Indian ATG. But that doesn't necessarily warrant him to be compared with greats of the game like Imran, Botham.

Hardik Pandya may have an odd good day with bat/ball but we all know where he stands when compared with Stokes. Not saying Stokes is a great but comparison gives a sense of the respective impacts...

 

[as-95]

He may certainly be an Indian ATG. But that doesn't necessarily warrant him to be compared with greats of the game like Imran, Botham.

Hardik Pandya may have an odd good day with bat/ball but we all know where he stands when compared with Stokes. Not saying Stokes is a great but comparison gives a sense of the respective impacts...

Absolutely correct. Kapil is undoubtedly a great all rounder but is in a tier below the true ATG's. Being comparable to the likes of Shakib and Flintoff is definitely a good achievement as all three of them were great all rounders.

He just needed more to be compared with the true ATG's...

 

[as-95]

[MENTION=134706]as-95[/MENTION], I would def consider Kapil an ATG All Rounder, well above cluless all rounder of today like Ashwin, Jadeja, and Co. I also consider him an ATG for India but bowling or batting wise, he does not have the stats to be an ATG on the world stage!

Having extremely poor bowling averages (which was his stronger attribute), clearly also shows how Indian fans are so fickle in picking on Pak players for being average/poor in Australia and SA (of all the places), yet are defending Kapil with all their might; real hypocrisy if you ask me.

Now what is ironic is that one hand several people say we should look beyond his stats (especially averages and SR etc.) to judge him yet quite a few Indian fans keep acting like parrots in saying oh since Imran does not have a video showing him bowling at 150 KPH, he cannot be anything more than the 139 KPH despite the fact that: he was recorded while being very new/raw and not established yet back then, having a completely different action, and obviously well before his peak years of 1981-86.

It can't be one rule for Kapil and another for Imran despite the fact that many have indicated that when he was in rhythm, he could bowl as fast as most if not all, something that was eveident in that competition as well!

I agree... Kapil Dev is certainly not an ATG on the world stage... Ishant Sharma has performed better in England than Kapil Dev

It's better to leave Imran Khan out of this thread though as he doesn't deserve to be compared with an all rounder a few tiers below him!

 

[Shandarchowka]

Absolutely correct. Kapil is undoubtedly a great all rounder but is in a tier below the true ATG's. Being comparable to the likes of Shakib and Flintoff is definitely a good achievement as all three of them were great all rounders.

He just needed more to be compared with the true ATG's...

Agred. Kapil Dev can be compared with Shakib actually. Both played for weak, yet passionate teams. They punched above their weight most of the times, but was never enough given their limited skill.

Actually scratch that. Shakib is way better. He's a much better batsman and much much better bowler too. He has literally transformed Bangladesh from a minnow to a solid team.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

I don't think he is a certified ATG All rounder. PakPassion doesn't represent views around the whole world, but it's certainly debatable whether Kapil Dev is an ATG or simply an Indian great of the game. His pathetic performances in 6 out of the 9 countries he has played in questions his status with respect to the true ATG All rounders.

The outside world considers 80s to be the era of Fab 4 AR.

All ATG ARs.

His performance is barely pathetic considering the bowlers he bowled with. Plus stats are not bad at all.

Plus his numbers against the greatest side of his era were GREAT both home and away....with bat and ball. He outperformed all his peers against the best.

He is widely regarded as ATG AR the way people talk about him.

 

[Proactive_]

Rankings prove nothing and are futile. Kapil Dev never reached the number 1 ranking in bowling and languished in the lower half of the top 10 rankings. There has been plenty of average players who have cracked the top 10 and being a top 10 bowler is no great accomplishment. He was a good bowler amongst the 'lower half of top 10' bowler's during his career. All this proves is that he was amongst the top 10 of bowlers during his playing career. Noone is disputing that he was a top 10 bowler amongst his peers. The question that people are asking is if he deserves to be compared to the ATG all rounders like Imran, Sobers, Hadlee, Kallis etc.

You do realize that he this isn't a matter of staying in the Top 10 for a month or two, right? He was in the Top 10 for almost 15 years. There was a time when even the bowlers of the caliber of Botham couldn't even be in the Top 20 in the bowling rankings and Kapil hardly went outside Top 10 throughout his career. That's an incredible feat for a fast bowler any which way you look at it.

Also, I don't see anyone in this thread calling him an ATG bowler. But as an all rounder it's blasphemous to suggest he's not right up there. In any other era than the one he played in, he would have unanimously been adjudged as at least being a Top 2 player of that era. Even in his own era, he had the second most Test centuries among his all rounder peers and took 23 five fors. These are not statistics of just a "good" cricketer.

Being a top 10 calibre bowler with a poor bowling average that was severely damaged when he went overseas, damages his claim for ATG status and it is arguable that he is merely an Indian great. This is a great achievement in itself as India have had many legends of the game. It's just arguable that Kapil Dev doesn't sit at the table with the All Time Greats!!!

James Anderson averages 30+ in 5 out of the 8 countries he has played in, even in countries like SA and NZ which suit fast bowlers, and yet he's the 2nd greatest fast bowler of this era, hell some would even claim him to be a borderline ATG. Kapil has a better away average and averaged 26 playing on the roads in India. Don't see how Kapil can't be rated as at least being a very good bowler?

Kapil IS an ATG, in the 150 year history of Test cricket, how many cricketers can claim to have most or all of the below statistics that Kapil commanded:

1) 400+ wickets at <30
2) 23+ five fors
3) 5000+ Test runs at 30+
4) 8+ Test centuries
5) <30 bowling average in Asian conditions (for 279 wickets no less)

As I said, I'm not even going into the cultural significance Kapil Dev and his method of play had on the team (something which is widely cited (and rightly so) to prop up players like Viv Richards whose stats don't match the aura that he commanded), nor am I talking about his lack of bowling support throughout his career.

Even statistically speaking, Kapil is a sure shot ATG and a well deserved hall of famer.

 

[Bilal7]

The outside world considers 80s to be the era of Fab 4 AR.

All ATG ARs.

His performance is barely pathetic considering the bowlers he bowled with. Plus stats are not bad at all.

Plus his numbers against the greatest side of his era were GREAT both home and away....with bat and ball. He outperformed all his peers against the best.

He is widely regarded as ATG AR the way people talk about him.

Fab 4, not ATG 4. Unless you also consider the Indian batting Fab 4 to all be ATGs and the modern Fab 4 to all be ATGs (already). It is just a title, it proves nothing. Sobers was definitely better than three and arguably better than all four of these guys. Kallis was better than at least a couple. Then you also have Miller.

Kapil averaged 26 away from home with the bat and 38 outside of India, Australia and West Indies. Those are not the numbers of an ATG all-rounder, irrespective of what he did against two teams or in India.

 

[Bilal7]

You do realize that he this isn't a matter of staying in the Top 10 for a month or two, right? He was in the Top 10 for almost 15 years. There was a time when even the bowlers of the caliber of Botham couldn't even be in the Top 20 in the bowling rankings and Kapil hardly went outside Top 10 throughout his career. That's an incredible feat for a fast bowler any which way you look at it.

Also, I don't see anyone in this thread calling him an ATG bowler. But as an all rounder it's blasphemous to suggest he's not right up there. In any other era than the one he played in, he would have unanimously been adjudged as at least being a Top 2 player of that era. Even in his own era, he had the second most Test centuries among his all rounder peers and took 23 five fors. These are not statistics of just a "good" cricketer.



James Anderson averages 30+ in 5 out of the 8 countries he has played in, even in countries like SA and NZ which suit fast bowlers, and yet he's the 2nd greatest fast bowler of this era, hell some would even claim him to be a borderline ATG. Kapil has a better away average and averaged 26 playing on the roads in India. Don't see how Kapil can't be rated as at least being a very good bowler?

Kapil IS an ATG, in the 150 year history of Test cricket, how many cricketers can claim to have most or all of the below statistics that Kapil commanded:

1) 400+ wickets at <30
2) 23+ five fors
3) 5000+ Test runs at 30+
4) 8+ Test centuries
5) <30 bowling average in Asian conditions (for 279 wickets no less)

As I said, I'm not even going into the cultural significance Kapil Dev and his method of play had on the team (something which is widely cited (and rightly so) to prop up players like Viv Richards whose stats don't match the aura that he commanded), nor am I talking about his lack of bowling support throughout his career.

Even statistically speaking, Kapil is a sure shot ATG and a well deserved hall of famer.

All of these statistics were because he played way more matches than he should have. Would you also say that Shahid Afridi is an ATG all-rounder?

I mean, 7000+ runs, nearly 400 wickets, most number of sixes, lots of MOTM awards, et cetera. If Kapil is, then Afridi certainly is as well, albeit in ODIs.

 

[Proactive_]

All of these statistics were because he played way more matches than he should have. Would you also say that Shahid Afridi is an ATG all-rounder?

I mean, 7000+ runs, nearly 400 wickets, most number of sixes, lots of MOTM awards, et cetera. If Kapil is, then Afridi certainly is as well, albeit in ODIs.

Well first of all, Shahid Afridi has a dreadful bowling record in ODIs once you take out the minnows:

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...rderby=default;template=results;type=allround

Average of 38+ against the Top 7 with less than 1 wicket a match.

In contrast, the worst average Kapil has against any team in ODIs is 31.25 against SA. This alone should end the discussion but ok let's look at the batting as well.

Shahid Afridi has a peak batting ranking of 24 in ODIs, in contrast Kapil Dev's highest batting ranking in ODIs is No.6. At various stages of his career, he was the highest ranked Indian ODI BATSMAN as well on top of being the highest ranked Indian ODI bowler. How many players in the history of cricket can claim to have had such a distinction? You're talking about an era where quite a few illustrious batsmen like Border, Gavaskar, Gower, Gooch, Vengsarkar, Amarnath etc etc averaged 30-35 in ODIs. Kapil was a far far better batsman under that yardstick as evidenced by his ICC rankings as an ODI batsman which was always around the Top 20 as compared to Afrdi who played well in to the 2000s and yet couldn't drag his batting average to even 25.

Please, don't compare a hack like Afridi to a legend like Kapil. Afridi is an embarrassment to the game to the cricket and I'm amazed that a country with a cricketing legacy like Pakistan kept him in the team for a decade and a half. If Pakistan really care about the future of their cricket, the first thing they should be doing is to completely shun Afridi from popular culture and destroy his (embarrassing) cricketing legacy from the cricketing land space altogether. He's an embarrassment to not just Pakistan cricket but world cricket at large.

 

[Bilal7]

Well first of all, Shahid Afridi has a dreadful bowling record in ODIs once you take out the minnows:

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...rderby=default;template=results;type=allround

Average of 38+ against the Top 7 with less than 1 wicket a match.

In contrast, the worst average Kapil has against any team in ODIs is 31.25 against SA. This alone should end the discussion but ok let's look at the batting as well.

Shahid Afridi has a peak batting ranking of 24 in ODIs, in contrast Kapil Dev's highest batting ranking in ODIs is No.6. At various stages of his career, he was the highest ranked Indian ODI BATSMAN as well on top of being the highest ranked Indian ODI bowler. How many players in the history of cricket can claim to have had such a distinction? You're talking about an era where quite a few illustrious batsmen like Border, Gavaskar, Gower, Gooch, Vengsarkar, Amarnath etc etc averaged 30-35 in ODIs. Kapil was a far far better batsman under that yardstick as evidenced by his ICC rankings as an ODI batsman which was always around the Top 20 as compared to Afrdi who played well in to the 2000s and yet couldn't drag his batting average to even 25.

Please, don't compare a hack like Afridi to a legend like Kapil. Afridi is an embarrassment to the game to the cricket and I'm amazed that a country with a cricketing legacy like Pakistan kept him in the team for a decade and a half. If Pakistan really care about the future of their cricket, the first thing they should be doing is to completely shun Afridi from popular culture and destroy his (embarrassing) cricketing legacy from the cricketing land space altogether. He's an embarrassment to not just Pakistan cricket but world cricket at large.

Well, in test cricket, Kapil averages 26 with the bat away from home and 38+ with the ball outside of three countries. His test record, like Afridi's, looks good because they played a truckload of tests and ODIs, respectively.

Just like Afridi's ODI record does not stand up to Kapil's under closer examination, Kapil's test record does not stand anywhere in the same ballpark as Imran's or Sober's. The same argument you used to discredit Afridi's ODI record (rightfully so, in my opinion) can be used to discredit's Kapil's test record. Both are nothing more than good players who played a lot of games, mostly because their respective teams had no other options.

Afridi would have a very short ODI career for a team like 90s and 00s South Africa while Kapil would have a very short test career for 90s Pakistan or 00s Australia.

 

[Muhammad10]

The outside world considers 80s to be the era of Fab 4 AR.

All ATG ARs.

His performance is barely pathetic considering the bowlers he bowled with. Plus stats are not bad at all.

Plus his numbers against the greatest side of his era were GREAT both home and away....with bat and ball. He outperformed all his peers against the best.

He is widely regarded as ATG AR the way people talk about him.

Hadlee had the best all-round stats against the West Indies, while Imran also had superior stats to Kapil against them. In addition, Imran picked up 2 more five-wicket hauls than Kapil in 7 fewer matches and had the best bowling average and by far the best bowling strike rate against West Indies from among the quartet.

Having said that, all three of them were superb against West Indies, while Botham performed poorly against West Indies. That is a good reason for ranking Botham alongside Kapil despite his superior career stats.

 

[Proactive_]

Well, in test cricket, Kapil averages 26 with the bat away from home and 38+ with the ball outside of three countries. His test record, like Afridi's, looks good because they played a truckload of tests and ODIs, respectively.

Just like Afridi's ODI record does not stand up to Kapil's under closer examination, Kapil's test record does not stand anywhere in the same ballpark as Imran's or Sober's. The same argument you used to discredit Afridi's ODI record (rightfully so, in my opinion) can be used to discredit's Kapil's test record. Both are nothing more than good players who played a lot of games, mostly because their respective teams had no other options.

Afridi would have a very short ODI career for a team like 90s and 00s South Africa while Kapil would have a very short test career for 90s Pakistan or 00s Australia.

Alright, let's do some further "closer examination".

Kapil averaged 35+ with the bat in England, in a country where India's best batsman at that time, Sunil Gavaskar averaged 41. So Kapil was obviously a very handy batsman in England along with bowling some great spells including some match winning Test spells like Lords 1986. His stats in every tour have been posted in this thread and he was a vital contributor on every tour either with bat or ball.

Same with SA where he averaged 40 with the bat. The only countries in which he was ineffective with both bat and ball were NZ and arguably Pakistan (even though he has 3 five fors in Pakistan along with a batting average in the mid 20s).

So in essence, he was a great contributor with both bat and ball at home and was a good-very good contributor with either bat or ball (if not both) in most countries including being a very good contributor against the best team of his time in their own den. Seems like an ATG to me.

Shahid Afridi in contrast was always a hack who wouldn't find a place even in today's Bangladesh XI. Kapil would be the first name on the Team sheet in every international team in 2018. You got to understand that the ATG list doesn't end with Imran and Sobers. The number of players who brought the value that Kapil Dev brought to a cricket team as an all rounder in the 140 year history of world cricket can be counted on your fingers, and that's a pretty damn convincing argument for a cricketer to be in the class of an ATG.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Hadlee had the best all-round stats against the West Indies, while Imran also had superior stats to Kapil against them. In addition, Imran picked up 2 more five-wicket hauls than Kapil in 7 fewer matches and had the best bowling average and by far the best bowling strike rate against West Indies from among the quartet.

Having said that, all three of them were superb against West Indies, while Botham performed poorly against West Indies. That is a good reason for ranking Botham alongside Kapil despite his superior career stats.

OK fair enough.

Can you post the home and away stats for all the ARs against WI? For batting & bowling.

Fab 4, not ATG 4. Unless you also consider the Indian batting Fab 4 to all be ATGs and the modern Fab 4 to all be ATGs (already). It is just a title, it proves nothing. Sobers was definitely better than three and arguably better than all four of these guys. Kallis was better than at least a couple. Then you also have Miller.

Kapil averaged 26 away from home with the bat and 38 outside of India, Australia and West Indies. Those are not the numbers of an ATG all-rounder, irrespective of what he did against two teams or in India.

"Fab 4" represented the Indian batting lineup. They weren't considered the Fab 4 batsmen of the world.

"Fab 4 AR of 80s" represented the great ARs in the whole world. Those ARs are considered to be the benchmark for all ARs just like ATG batsmen/bowlers are the benchmark for batsmen/bowlers.

 

[Muhammad10]

OK fair enough.

Can you post the home and away stats for all the ARs against WI? For batting & bowling.

Richard Hadlee:




Imran Khan:




Kapil Dev:




Ian Botham:

 

[RainMan_]

Alright, let's do some further "closer examination".

Kapil averaged 35+ with the bat in England, in a country where India's best batsman at that time, Sunil Gavaskar averaged 41. So Kapil was obviously a very handy batsman in England along with bowling some great spells including some match winning Test spells like Lords 1986. His stats in every tour have been posted in this thread and he was a vital contributor on every tour either with bat or ball.

Same with SA where he averaged 40 with the bat. The only countries in which he was ineffective with both bat and ball were NZ and arguably Pakistan (even though he has 3 five fors in Pakistan along with a batting average in the mid 20s).

So in essence, he was a great contributor with both bat and ball at home and was a good-very good contributor with either bat or ball (if not both) in most countries including being a very good contributor against the best team of his time in their own den. Seems like an ATG to me.

Shahid Afridi in contrast was always a hack who wouldn't find a place even in today's Bangladesh XI. Kapil would be the first name on the Team sheet in every international team in 2018. You got to understand that the ATG list doesn't end with Imran and Sobers. The number of players who brought the value that Kapil Dev brought to a cricket team as an all rounder in the 140 year history of world cricket can be counted on your fingers, and that's a pretty damn convincing argument for a cricketer to be in the class of an ATG.

Lol. U r calling afridi a hack but Kapil a legend when their overall stats r more or less same. Wow.

First of all I don't think Balal7 is trying to portray afridi as some atgs in ODIs or anything like that. He has brought in Afridi to show where exactly Kapil belongs as an allrounder.

Secondly, if we look at Kapil's batting average outside Asia we'll see its not better than a tailender. Arkeat someone who averages 19 with the bat aways from home can be called anything but not a proper batsman.

Thirdly, Kapil averages 32 with the ball away from home in ODIs while afridi averages 35 (as a spinner). So, afridi's average difference between ball and bat is -11 while Kapil's is -12. If that is the case,

Then how Kapil is an ATG in ur book but Afridi is a hack when their overall career stats shows exactly the opposite.


Kapil's record in tests is even more mediocore and he certainly shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath of Kallis, Sobbers or Miller. Averaging 33 with the ball away from home after playing in the most bowling friendly era is absolutely criminal. If Kapil had to bowl on todays phattaas he would've averaged over 40 in both ODIs and tears.

 

[RainMan_]

There r three tires of allrounders

Top Tier
1. Imran
2. Sobbers
3. Miller

Mid tier
1. Kallis
2. Shakib
3. Botham
4. Hadlee

Bottom tier
1. Kapil Dev
2. Vettory
3. Abdul Razzak
4. Klusener

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Kapil has pretty mediocre stats to be an ATG tbh

 

[Proactive_]

Lol. U r calling afridi a hack but Kapil a legend when their overall stats r more or less same. Wow.

It's embarrassing that you're even writing this when an elaborate explanation debunking this nonsense is merely posts above you at Post 89.

First of all I don't think Balal7 is trying to portray afridi as some atgs in ODIs or anything like that. He has brought in Afridi to show where exactly Kapil belongs as an allrounder.

Once again, see #89 and try to refute any of it if you can. Afridi doesn't belong in the discussion.

Secondly, if we look at Kapil's batting average outside Asia we'll see its not better than a tailender. Arkeat someone who averages 19 with the bat aways from home can be called anything but not a proper batsman.

So Richard Hadlee isn't an ATG all rounder? Because he averaged 17 away from home in ODIs. Also, Ian Botham has a lower ODI batting average than Kapil.

Next.

Thirdly, Kapil averages 32 with the ball away from home in ODIs while afridi averages 35 (as a spinner). So, afridi's average difference between ball and bat is -11 while Kapil's is -12. If that is the case,

Afridi averages an atrocious 38 with less than 1 wicket per match when you take out the minnows. Kapil's worst average against any team in ODI is 31.25

Next.

Then how Kapil is an ATG in ur book but Afridi is a hack when their overall career stats shows exactly the opposite.

You obviously have no track of the discussion that's going on.

Kapil's record in tests is even more mediocore and he certainly shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath of Kallis, Sobbers or Miller. Averaging 33 with the ball away from home after playing in the most bowling friendly era is absolutely criminal. If Kapil had to bowl on todays phattaas he would've averaged over 40 in both ODIs and tears.

Botham averaged 32 with the ball in the 80s, and that too playing half his career in favorable conditions. Nice to know that you don't consider him an ATG as well.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Richard Hadlee:

View attachment 86641


Imran Khan:

View attachment 86642


Kapil Dev:

View attachment 86643


Ian Botham:

View attachment 86644

Thanks. You were right. I got the stats confused.

Kapil did great against the best team of his era with balanced home and away records even if he didn't outperform his peers.

 

[The Viper]

Think Kapil is certainly an ATG. Carrying the Indian attack did ruin his figures you would think.

 

[Robert]

Absolutely correct. Kapil is undoubtedly a great all rounder but is in a tier below the true ATG's. Being comparable to the likes of Shakib and Flintoff is definitely a good achievement as all three of them were great all rounders.

He just needed more to be compared with the true ATG's...

Flintoff was not a great all-rounder. Five test hundreds in an era without many great fast bowlers, average nearly 33 with the ball, just three fivefers. People think he was great because of a two or three year period. Among England all-rounders of my time he'd be my third choice, far behind Botham and a bit behind Stokes.

 

[Ab Fan]

Quartet of 80s were all ATGs, no doubt really.

As a cricketer, my rating for four will be: -

Imran
Hadlee
Botham
Kapil

After All four ATGs, Kallis is the next to join after them. Shaun Pollock is an ATG bowler as well but not an ATG all-rounder. Hadlee is also not an ATG all-rounder but an ATG bowler and a good no 8 batsmen like Shaun Pollock.

Imran, Botham, Kapil and Kallis are ATG all-rounders.

 

[Ab Fan]

Shakib is a great all-rounder but I dont think he has in him to take it to ATG level. It's not about stats but more to it.

 

[RainMan_]

It's embarrassing that you're even writing this when an elaborate explanation debunking this nonsense is merely posts above you at Post 89.



Once again, see #89 and try to refute any of it if you can. Afridi doesn't belong in the discussion.



So Richard Hadlee isn't an ATG all rounder? Because he averaged 17 away from home in ODIs. Also, Ian Botham has a lower ODI batting average than Kapil.

Next.



Afridi averages an atrocious 38 with less than 1 wicket per match when you take out the minnows. Kapil's worst average against any team in ODI is 31.25

Next.



You obviously have no track of the discussion that's going on.



Botham averaged 32 with the ball in the 80s, and that too playing half his career in favorable conditions. Nice to know that you don't consider him an ATG as well.

Why r u getting agitated my dear friend ? There's nothing wrong in accepting the fact that Kapil doesn't belong to the ATG category especially when loads of evidences have already been presented here which has clearly shown the actual quality of Kapil as an allrounder, not the nonsense that Indian media try to feed its gullible audiences.

Don't really know why r u suggesting to exclude the minnows when the concept of this minnow team is quite vague. It's difficult to measure what was the quality of teams like NZ, SL during Kapil's era. Even Kapil's most famous 175 knock in WC came against a team that didn't have a test status. As a matter of fact they got test status 9 years after that particular match.

To be honest Kapil's mediocre batting average of 10 and browling average of 42 in tests against NZ in NZ as well well as his batting average of 14 and bowling average of 35 in ODIs against SL in SL shows that even against lesser teams he failed miserably and performing against so called minnows isn't as easy as u r trying to suggest here. So, to keep things consistent I think we should look at their overall performance as an allrounder instead of trying to identify who's minnow and who's not.


As for Botham, he was a superb allrounder. In ODIs he averaged 26 with the bat and 28 with the ball away from home whereas Kapil had a tailender's batting average of 19 and mediocore bowling average of 31 away from home. There's a massive negative 12 difference between Kapil's batting and bowling average away from home in ODIs whereas the difference between batting and bowling average of Botham is less than negative 2 as far as his performance in ODIs away from home is concerned.


Pls don't mention Kapil's name in the same sentence where u r taking about Botham. Difference in their quality is just too much.

 

[Muhammad10]

Thanks. You were right. I got the stats confused.

Kapil did great against the best team of his era with balanced home and away records even if he didn't outperform his peers.

Yes, he had a good record in big games, which undoubtedly helps to compensate for some of the weak points in his record. As mentioned before, I feel he was a borderline ATG/world class cricketer at the same level as Botham, a tier below the other two all-rounders from the quartet, but to each his own...

 

[Monsee]

Richard Hadlee:

View attachment 86641


Imran Khan:

View attachment 86642


Kapil Dev:

View attachment 86643


Ian Botham:

View attachment 86644

What is funny is that OP (in the Kapil WI thread: LINK) made it sound as if Imran was horrible in WI and even used the word 'Tailender' for him...not sure an average of 21+ in WI is as bad as it sounds considering he carried most of the responsibility of our fast bowling in those tours as well. And it is not as if Kapil average 30 or 35 or 40, a rather 28+ in WI. We also have to consider Imran was a 'Phaast Bowler' not a just swing and seam line-n-length bowler who could run in all day and trundle around!

Yes, Kapil did better in WI but he had a more formidable batting line up around him through most of his career while Imran spent majority of his tests against WI rescuing Pak team from failures by forging partnerships with the tail enders. An example would be his last test series against WI in Pakistan where he and Tauseef (and couple of others) helped draw a test (in Karachi I think) that was all but lost earlier on.

Finally, if we look at the overall record against WI for both, the numbers are pretty even because if Kapil has a better average in batting, Imran has a better bowling average!

 

[Bilal7]

Alright, let's do some further "closer examination".

Kapil averaged 35+ with the bat in England, in a country where India's best batsman at that time, Sunil Gavaskar averaged 41. So Kapil was obviously a very handy batsman in England along with bowling some great spells including some match winning Test spells like Lords 1986. His stats in every tour have been posted in this thread and he was a vital contributor on every tour either with bat or ball.

Same with SA where he averaged 40 with the bat. The only countries in which he was ineffective with both bat and ball were NZ and arguably Pakistan (even though he has 3 five fors in Pakistan along with a batting average in the mid 20s).

So in essence, he was a great contributor with both bat and ball at home and was a good-very good contributor with either bat or ball (if not both) in most countries including being a very good contributor against the best team of his time in their own den. Seems like an ATG to me.

Shahid Afridi in contrast was always a hack who wouldn't find a place even in today's Bangladesh XI. Kapil would be the first name on the Team sheet in every international team in 2018. You got to understand that the ATG list doesn't end with Imran and Sobers. The number of players who brought the value that Kapil Dev brought to a cricket team as an all rounder in the 140 year history of world cricket can be counted on your fingers, and that's a pretty damn convincing argument for a cricketer to be in the class of an ATG.

Imran and Sobers are the bar. You need to come close to matching their brilliance to be known as an ATG. Kapil was far below those two and you know it as well.

What you have said about Kapil reminds me more of someone like Moeen Ali rather than an ATG all-rounder. If Kapil wasn't performing with both bat and ball, he wasn't being much of an all-rounder, was he? Also, cherry-picking stats from certain tours is not what one would need to do with an ATG player.

Shahid Afridi would certainly make quite a few ODI teams today, just like Kapil would make quite a few test teams. That does not mean much because nearly every team is either in transition or severely weakened.

I can confidently say that the number of cricketers who brought the same value as Afridi did in ODIs will be similar to the number of players that brought as much value as Kapil in test cricket. Afridi was simply unlucky to be playing in an era where stats were actually analyzed and people were not blinded by the number of sixes a guy hit (at least during the latter part of Afridi's career).

 

[Bilal7]

OK fair enough.

Can you post the home and away stats for all the ARs against WI? For batting & bowling.



"Fab 4" represented the Indian batting lineup. They weren't considered the Fab 4 batsmen of the world.

"Fab 4 AR of 80s" represented the great ARs in the whole world. Those ARs are considered to be the benchmark for all ARs just like ATG batsmen/bowlers are the benchmark for batsmen/bowlers.

No, they are not. Sobers, Kallis, Miller, Pollock and even Flintoff and Mushtaq Mohammad are all up there and definitely better than or in the same league as Botham and Kapil.

The all-rounder bar is set by Imran and Sobers and to some extent, by Miller. Kapil and his one-point difference in batting and bowling averages is nowhere near being the bar.

 

[Bilal7]

Quartet of 80s were all ATGs, no doubt really.

As a cricketer, my rating for four will be: -

Imran
Hadlee
Botham
Kapil

After All four ATGs, Kallis is the next to join after them. Shaun Pollock is an ATG bowler as well but not an ATG all-rounder. Hadlee is also not an ATG all-rounder but an ATG bowler and a good no 8 batsmen like Shaun Pollock.

Imran, Botham, Kapil and Kallis are ATG all-rounders.

Kallis was a clearly superior player to Kapil and Botham on his batting alone. As an all-rounder, he is a tier above. Please explain why Pollock is not a genuine all-rounder but Kapil and his away batting average of twenty-six is not only an all-rounder, but also an ATG.

 

[Proactive_]

Why r u getting agitated my dear friend ? There's nothing wrong in accepting the fact that Kapil doesn't belong to the ATG category especially when loads of evidences have already been presented here which has clearly shown the actual quality of Kapil as an allrounder, not the nonsense that Indian media try to feed its gullible audiences.

It's funny because if Kapil doesn't belong in that category then most of the other folk that you have named in your little list above also don't based on various statistics, which I will show further in this post.

Also, it's funny that you mention Indian media. My biggest gripe with Indian media is that they hardly promote Kapil Dev and are always busy massaging the likes of Kohli and Tendulkar. Kapil gets close to zero attention when talking about Indian cricketing greats even though he is the most significant cricketer to ever play for India.

Don't really know why r u suggesting to exclude the minnows when the concept of this minnow team is quite vague. It's difficult to measure what was the quality of teams like NZ, SL during Kapil's era. Even Kapil's most famous 175 knock in WC came against a team that didn't have a test status. As a matter of fact they got test status 9 years after that particular match.

To be honest Kapil's mediocre batting average of 10 and browling average of 42 in tests against NZ in NZ as well well as his batting average of 14 and bowling average of 35 in ODIs against SL in SL shows that even against lesser teams he failed miserably and performing against so called minnows isn't as easy as u r trying to suggest here. So, to keep things consistent I think we should look at their overall performance as an allrounder instead of trying to identify who's minnow and who's not.

The fact that you're even mentioning NZ here, a team which won away series against the likes of Eng and Australia along with being the only team to beat the Windies in a Test series in the 1980s goes to show that you don't have much knowledge about that era anyway.

Secondly, Kapil's 175 is significant because

A) India was 17/5 when Kapil came into bat
B) India wouldn't have progressed to further rounds in the WC had they lost the match.

Give me one similar performance Afridi had for Pakistan with the gravity of the situation half of what Kapil faced in that match.

As for Botham, he was a superb allrounder. In ODIs he averaged 26 with the bat and 28 with the ball away from home whereas Kapil had a tailender's batting average of 19 and mediocore bowling average of 31 away from home. There's a massive negative 12 difference between Kapil's batting and bowling average away from home in ODIs whereas the difference between batting and bowling average of Botham is less than negative 2 as far as his performance in ODIs away from home is concerned.
Pls don't mention Kapil's name in the same sentence where u r taking about Botham. Difference in their quality is just too much.

Kapil Dev, when compared to Botham in ODIs had :

a) Better batting average
b) Better bowling average
c) Better batting strike rate
d) More 50+ scores
e) More 4 wicket+ performances

And yet somehow it's Kapil who doesn't belong in the same sentence? Some nerve you got there, pal. What about Kapil Dev's neutral venue average of 24.49 which includes quite a few matches in the UAE while Botham didn't play a single match in the UAE! As a matter of fact, I just checked that 93 out of Botham's 102 ODIs are in Eng, Aus, NZ and WI.

Like I said, you have ZERO clue of what you're talking about, and you're showing it in spades here.

 

[Proactive_]

Imran and Sobers are the bar. You need to come close to matching their brilliance to be known as an ATG. Kapil was far below those two and you know it as well.

What you have said about Kapil reminds me more of someone like Moeen Ali rather than an ATG all-rounder. If Kapil wasn't performing with both bat and ball, he wasn't being much of an all-rounder, was he? Also, cherry-picking stats from certain tours is not what one would need to do with an ATG player.

I'll give you an analogy. It's unanimously agreed that Bradman was a better batsman than let's say Lara for instance. Doesn't mean in the least that Lara was not an ATG. I'm pretty sure that if I dig in, I'll find quite a few holes in Imran and Sobers' records as well (either with bat or ball or both). I've already dug in and stated quite a few shortcomings in Botham's and Hadlee's careers already.

Shahid Afridi would certainly make quite a few ODI teams today, just like Kapil would make quite a few test teams. That does not mean much because nearly every team is either in transition or severely weakened.

I can confidently say that the number of cricketers who brought the same value as Afridi did in ODIs will be similar to the number of players that brought as much value as Kapil in test cricket. Afridi was simply unlucky to be playing in an era where stats were actually analyzed and people were not blinded by the number of sixes a guy hit (at least during the latter part of Afridi's career).

Wait, so you'll run down Kapil Dev based on them "statistics" but turn around to paint that Afridi actually brought as much value as Kapil even though his statistics in just about every metric are complete crap?

As I showed in the previous posts, even statistically speaking Kapil Dev is a far better cricketer than Afridi, in both formats. Afridi was a complete liability with the ball with an average close to 40 in ODIs against non minnows and the less said about Afridi the batsman, the better.

It boggles my mind about how and more importantly WHY do Pakistanis even defend this guy. It would be like Indians defending Stuart Binny for instance and Stuart Binny has an ODI bowling average of 22 .

 

[Ab Fan]

Kallis was a clearly superior player to Kapil and Botham on his batting alone. As an all-rounder, he is a tier above. Please explain why Pollock is not a genuine all-rounder but Kapil and his away batting average of twenty-six is not only an all-rounder, but also an ATG.

Shaun Pollock is an overall on par cricketer to Dev because he was an ATG bowler and a good no. 8 batsmen. However, him and Hadlee weren't that good with the bat to be classified as genuine all-rounder.

Kapil Dev was a great bowler and a very good no. 7 batsmen. He has got 8 hundreds compared to Shaun's 2. There is no point in looking at overall away averages of all-rounders. It is the impact which matters.

On Kallis, I agree, will put him ahead of Botham and Kapil as all-rounders although it is hard to compare batting all-rounders to bowling ones.

 

[RainMan_]

It's funny because if Kapil doesn't belong in that category then most of the other folk that you have named in your little list above also don't based on various statistics, which I will show further in this post.

Also, it's funny that you mention Indian media. My biggest gripe with Indian media is that they hardly promote Kapil Dev and are always busy massaging the likes of Kohli and Tendulkar. Kapil gets close to zero attention when talking about Indian cricketing greats even though he is the most significant cricketer to ever play for India.



The fact that you're even mentioning NZ here, a team which won away series against the likes of Eng and Australia along with being the only team to beat the Windies in a Test series in the 1980s goes to show that you don't have much knowledge about that era anyway.

Secondly, Kapil's 175 is significant because

A) India was 17/5 when Kapil came into bat
B) India wouldn't have progressed to further rounds in the WC had they lost the match.

Give me one similar performance Afridi had for Pakistan with the gravity of the situation half of what Kapil faced in that match.



Kapil Dev, when compared to Botham in ODIs had :

a) Better batting average
b) Better bowling average
c) Better batting strike rate
d) More 50+ scores
e) More 4 wicket+ performances

And yet somehow it's Kapil who doesn't belong in the same sentence? Some nerve you got there, pal. What about Kapil Dev's neutral venue average of 24.49 which includes quite a few matches in the UAE while Botham didn't play a single match in the UAE! As a matter of fact, I just checked that 93 out of Botham's 102 ODIs are in Eng, Aus, NZ and WI.

Like I said, you have ZERO clue of what you're talking about, and you're showing it in spades here.

First of all, I'd like to request to stop blowing ur own trumpet. It makes u look dumb and degrades the quality of the discussion. Sorry, had too say this.

Secondly, I don't even belive in the concept of discarding one player's performance against minnows. Was Zimbabwe during afridi's time who won a test series against Pak in pak and whitewashed India at home a minnow? Was Kenya that went to the semifinal of the world cup a minnow?


U were quick to to discard afridi's superior overal stats compared to Kapil away from home by bringing in the nonsensical minnow/non minnow argument. But when u were shown that Kapil's so called great innings came against a minnow u were quick to glorify that overrated innings by bringing in the no of wickets that India lost before Kapil came on to bat.

Ofcourse, there were many occasions when Pakistan was in similar position against so called minnow teams and afridi had to save his team with his batting/bowling. Hence, there's no point in discarding a players performance against any team. Performance against each and every single opposition is equally important.


Thirdly, I have little to know interest to know what's ur view regarding Indian media. All I can see in Indian media is their pathetic attempt to glorify Kapil by constantly mentioning him beside allrounders like Imran, Kallis, sobbers when in reality he belongs to the group of Abdul Razzak, Flintoff. Even afridi isn't that far from Kapil Dev, especially if we comare the away performances of these two particular players.

Now coming back to Kapil vs Botham comparison. Even a glimpse over their overall stats shows why Botham as an all rounder is a league above Kapil. But obviously blind Dev followers r incapable of seeing it. Hence, they need to be spoon fed.


Kapil shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence with someone like Botham because, diffeece bettwen bothsm's batting and bowling average in tests away from home is only - 2 runs whereas Kapil's average difference is pathetic -12. Do u even know what does a negative average difference between bat and ball means ?

In tests, Botham averages 34 with the bat and 29 with the ball with 14 centuries whereas Kapil averages 31 with the bat and 30 with the ball and couldnt manage to score more than 8 centuries in his entire career even though he played freakin 130 tests.

So obviously considering both of these players overall test and odi record, their performances away from home across all formats, its quite evident that Kapil doesn't belong in bothsm's league.

Players like Imran, kallis or sobbers is out of question.

 

[Adijazz1706]

Kapil is at least a tier below IK Hadlee, Sobers, Kallis and Botham and is closer to someone like Shakib than to these guys

 

[Ashraful_Rox]

Kapil is at least a tier below IK Hadlee, Sobers, Kallis and Botham and is closer to someone like Shakib than to these guys

I agree But Shakib >>>> Kapil

 

[happydavy]

So there have been plenty of threads recently comparing all rounders from different generations so I dug into their stats a bit. Although it is common consensus that Imran Khan and Sobers are the greatest all rounders of all time, the hierarchy below them is subject to debate. The general consensus is that Botham and Hadlee are ranked below Khan and Sobers followed by Kallis and then potentially Kapil Dev.

I like how some PPers want to sneak in their opinions as ground rules of a new thread. "Common consensus that imran and sobers are greatest all rounder ever" is as laughable as saying that Mohammad ameer is the greatest bowler along with Glenn McGrath. Imran was a great player but an out and out defensive player, who was too emotionally attached to stats. You won't him in many dream XIs because he never belonged there. To put him in league of Sobers and Kallis is hilarious stuff.

 

[Proactive_]

First of all, I'd like to request to stop blowing ur own trumpet. It makes u look dumb and degrades the quality of the discussion. Sorry, had too say this.

Can't handle the heat? Get out of the kitchen.

Seriously, you think I'd let slide the fact that you think that NZ was a minnow in the 1980s in a discussion concerning that era's all rounders? . Don't take it personally pal, but you don't have the requisite knowledge of that era to indulge in this discussion in the first place, and you keep showing it again and again.

Secondly, I don't even belive in the concept of discarding one player's performance against minnows. Was Zimbabwe during afridi's time who won a test series against Pak in pak and whitewashed India at home a minnow? Was Kenya that went to the semifinal of the world cup a minnow?

U were quick to to discard afridi's superior overal stats compared to Kapil away from home by bringing in the nonsensical minnow/non minnow argument. But when u were shown that Kapil's so called great innings came against a minnow u were quick to glorify that overrated innings by bringing in the no of wickets that India lost before Kapil came on to bat.

Ofcourse, there were many occasions when Pakistan was in similar position against so called minnow teams and afridi had to save his team with his batting/bowling. Hence, there's no point in discarding a players performance against any team. Performance against each and every single opposition is equally important.

Nobody cares about India's WC Semi 2003 win vs Kenya, nor to Ganguly's century in the same match. Nobody would have cared for Kapil's 175 either if the scorecard read -

India 325-4 (60)
Zim 189 (49.3)

It assumes significance because, as I mentioned:

A) India was 17/5 when Kapil came into bat
B) India wouldn't have progressed to further rounds in the WC had they lost the match.

Really, it isn't that hard to understand, is it?

Also,
Shahid Afridi has a peak batting ranking of 24 in ODIs, in contrast Kapil Dev's highest batting ranking in ODIs is No.6. At various stages of his career, he was the highest ranked Indian ODI BATSMAN as well on top of being the highest ranked Indian ODI bowler. How many players in the history of cricket can claim to have had such a distinction? You're talking about an era where quite a few illustrious batsmen like Border, Gavaskar, Gower, Gooch, Vengsarkar, Amarnath etc etc averaged 30-35 in ODIs. Kapil was a far far better batsman under that yardstick as evidenced by his ICC rankings as an ODI batsman which was always around the Top 20 as compared to Afrdi who played well in to the 2000s and yet couldn't drag his batting average to even 25.

Thirdly, I have little to know interest to know what's ur view regarding Indian media. All I can see in Indian media is their pathetic attempt to glorify Kapil by constantly mentioning him beside allrounders like Imran, Kallis, sobbers when in reality he belongs to the group of Abdul Razzak, Flintoff. Even afridi isn't that far from Kapil Dev, especially if we comare the away performances of these two particular players.

Kapil hardly gets any coverage in Indian media. Don't know from where are you getting this non sense that the Indian media is 24x7 trying to paint Kapil as the greatest cricketer ever. It's all nauseating levels of Kohli and Tendulkar worshiping here.

Now coming back to Kapil vs Botham comparison. Even a glimpse over their overall stats shows why Botham as an all rounder is a league above Kapil. But obviously blind Dev followers r incapable of seeing it. Hence, they need to be spoon fed.

Exactly, like Botham and Kapil's ODI records where Kapil has:

a) Better batting average
b) Better bowling average
c) Better batting strike rate
d) More 50+ scores
e) More 4 wicket+ performances

Not to mention Botham hardly played ODIs in Asia. So, are you full already or do I need to spoon feed you more as far as the ODI comparison is concerned?

Kapil shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence with someone like Botham because, diffeece bettwen bothsm's batting and bowling average in tests away from home is only - 2 runs whereas Kapil's average difference is pathetic -12. Do u even know what does a negative average difference between bat and ball means ?

In tests, Botham averages 34 with the bat and 29 with the ball with 14 centuries whereas Kapil averages 31 with the bat and 30 with the ball and couldnt manage to score more than 8 centuries in his entire career even though he played freakin 130 tests.

So obviously considering both of these players overall test and odi record, their performances away from home across all formats, its quite evident that Kapil doesn't belong in bothsm's league.

Players like Imran, kallis or sobbers is out of question.

Botham averaged 32+ with the ball in the 1980s Tests, in spite of playing half his career in favorable conditions. And you talking about how Kapil could score "only" 8 Test centuries , tell me how many all rounders in your little list on Post 96 have more Test centuries than Kapil?

Yeah, right.. talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

 

[as-95]

Agred. Kapil Dev can be compared with Shakib actually. Both played for weak, yet passionate teams. They punched above their weight most of the times, but was never enough given their limited skill.

Actually scratch that. Shakib is way better. He's a much better batsman and much much better bowler too. He has literally transformed Bangladesh from a minnow to a solid team.

Shakin has indeed transformed his team and is undoubtedly a superior batsman to Kapil Dev. I would have to dig deeper into Shakibs stats before calling him a better bowler than Kapil Dev, but I would definitely classify them as all rounders of the same calibre in a few tiers below the ATG’s...

 

[as-95]

The outside world considers 80s to be the era of Fab 4 AR.

All ATG ARs.

His performance is barely pathetic considering the bowlers he bowled with. Plus stats are not bad at all.

Plus his numbers against the greatest side of his era were GREAT both home and away....with bat and ball. He outperformed all his peers against the best.

He is widely regarded as ATG AR the way people talk about him.

You are making claims without evidence. Which outside world are you talking about? Imran, Botham, Hadlee and Dev are indeed the Fab 4 but it doesn’t mean than all 4 of them are ATG status!

We have a fair representation of views from people of different backgrounds on this forum and I am seeing a trend where people are questioning Kapil dev’s status and many view him as a few tiers below the ATG’s.

Being an Indian great like Kapil Dev instead of an ATG is a big achievement as India has an illustrious cricketing history!!!

 

[happydavy]

Haha a couple of bdeshis posters trying to put shakib in the league or ATG all rounders. Good for them that on internet forums anonymity helps, else in real world they would be asked to see a doctor. Forget us fans, who could always be biased, if Shakib even finds a place in 3rd or 4th dream XI of any great cricketer, then that would be an achievement. What next now - Tamim in same class as Gavaskar?

Kapil paaji was a great all rounder and I don't think Indians need any external validation for the same. The ones who lack self esteem wants others to validate their opinions, not me for sure. He won a world cup at the age of 25 like a real lion, not like the one who lost to 4 teams and finally won one at the age of 41. Yes Kapil was inconsistent in later years, and was never too fussed about stats.

 

[as-95]

Fab 4, not ATG 4. Unless you also consider the Indian batting Fab 4 to all be ATGs and the modern Fab 4 to all be ATGs (already). It is just a title, it proves nothing. Sobers was definitely better than three and arguably better than all four of these guys. Kallis was better than at least a couple. Then you also have Miller.

Kapil averaged 26 away from home with the bat and 38 outside of India, Australia and West Indies. Those are not the numbers of an ATG all-rounder, irrespective of what he did against two teams or in India.

My point exactly! Being part of the Fab 4 doesn’t make you an ATG! Kapil was undoubtedly a great all rounder but pathetic performances in some of the most bowling friendly pitches in the world severely tarnish his legacy. Even disregarding his poor stats away from home, his stats are not worthy when compared to a genuine ATG all rounder!

 

[as-95]

There r three tires of allrounders

Top Tier
1. Imran
2. Sobbers
3. Miller

Mid tier
1. Kallis
2. Shakib
3. Botham
4. Hadlee

Bottom tier
1. Kapil Dev
2. Vettory
3. Abdul Razzak
4. Klusener

This is pretty fair. The only changes I would make is putting Miller in a tier below, adding Shaun Pollock to the mid tier and potentially removing Abdul Razzaq from the bottom tier. Kapil Dev(the subject of this entire thread) is probably fairly placed in the bottom tier. He is in good company with the likes of Daniel Vertori and Klusener who were great all rounders too!

 

[as-95]

Kapil has pretty mediocre stats to be an ATG tbh

True. Very poor stats which is why the general consensus in here seems to be that he is a tier or two below the true ATG's. Do you think he belongs in the ATG category or a few tiers below?

 

[Muhammad10]

I like how some PPers want to sneak in their opinions as ground rules of a new thread. "Common consensus that imran and sobers are greatest all rounder ever" is as laughable as saying that Mohammad ameer is the greatest bowler along with Glenn McGrath. Imran was a great player but an out and out defensive player, who was too emotionally attached to stats. You won't him in many dream XIs because he never belonged there. To put him in league of Sobers and Kallis is hilarious stuff.

Embarrassing comment. Imran was a top tier ATG as a bowler alone. The fact that he was also a handy lower order batsman and succeeded at captaincy unarguably makes him one of the most valuable cricketers in the history of the game.

 

[as-95]

Flintoff was not a great all-rounder. Five test hundreds in an era without many great fast bowlers, average nearly 33 with the ball, just three fivefers. People think he was great because of a two or three year period. Among England all-rounders of my time he'd be my third choice, far behind Botham and a bit behind Stokes.

Flintoff averaged almost 32 at an impressive strike rate of 62 with only 9 Not outs to inflate his average. His bowling figures aren't exceptional but he was indeed outstanding in his 3 year peak. It's a shame about his professionalism as this contributed to his peak being so short. I still think he classifies as a lower tier All Rounder Great of the game along with the likes of Vettori and potentially Kapil Dev

 

[Shandarchowka]

There r three tires of allrounders

Top Tier
1. Imran
2. Sobbers
3. Miller

Mid tier
1. Kallis
2. Shakib
3. Botham
4. Hadlee

Bottom tier
1. Kapil Dev
2. Vettory
3. Abdul Razzak
4. Klusener

Razzak and Klusener are surely above Kapil Dev and Vettori for sure. These two were the impactful and most feared players of their times. They could get in their national teams just as specialist batsman or specialist bowler.

Vettori and Kapil Dev look a perfect bottom tier set. Both of them were good captains for their teams, but not necessarily 'really good' compared to other allrounders across all eras. Apart from that, the list looks alright -

Top Tier
1. Imran
2. Sobbers
3. Miller

Mid tier
1. Kallis
3. Botham
4. Hadlee

Mid-bottom Tier
1. Shakib
2. Razzak
3. Klusener

Bottom tier
1. Kapil Dev
2. Vettory

 

[Canford Cliffs]

Razzak and Klusener are surely above Kapil Dev and Vettori for sure. These two were the impactful and most feared players of their times. They could get in their national teams just as specialist batsman or specialist bowler.

Vettori and Kapil Dev look a perfect bottom tier set. Both of them were good captains for their teams, but not necessarily 'really good' compared to other allrounders across all eras. Apart from that, the list looks alright -

Top Tier
1. Imran
2. Sobbers
3. Miller

Mid tier
1. Kallis
3. Botham
4. Hadlee

Mid-bottom Tier
1. Shakib
2. Razzak
3. Klusener

Bottom tier
1. Kapil Dev
2. Vettory

Sometimes I wonder what the motivation could be for posting of such nonsense? Lack of cricket knowledge, jingoism or just trying to feel good.

Razzaq is a better all rounder than Kapil Dev is a mazzaq (joke) that may sell well in PCB office and in the streets of Karachi where people still believes 'Pakistan me talent bolta hai'. But in real world Kapil wipes the floor with Razzaq.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

True. Very poor stats which is why the general consensus in here seems to be that he is a tier or two below the true ATG's. Do you think he belongs in the ATG category or a few tiers below?

Honestly I would call him a borderline ATG, just below ATGs. he won't be part of any ATG team I pick (tier 1, 2 or 3). He isn't good enough with either batting or bowling. He doesn't have impact like Botham either.

 

[Robert]

Flintoff averaged almost 32 at an impressive strike rate of 62 with only 9 Not outs to inflate his average. His bowling figures aren't exceptional but he was indeed outstanding in his 3 year peak. It's a shame about his professionalism as this contributed to his peak being so short. I still think he classifies as a lower tier All Rounder Great of the game along with the likes of Vettori and potentially Kapil Dev

I’d pick Kapil every time as he scored more centuries and took twenty-three fivefers to Flintoff’s three.

His peak being short had something to do with coaching as Nasser used him as a back-of-a-length FM stock bowler. He averaged about fifty with the ball in that role for years. But Vaughan encouraged him to bowl fast and that changed his career. He didn’t pitch it up enough though, could have had a hundred more test wickets if he had done that.

Injuries wore him down fast. He was a big man and his right ankle was put under too much pressure as he landed.

 

[Ashraful_Rox]

Razzak and Klusener are surely above Kapil Dev and Vettori for sure. These two were the impactful and most feared players of their times. They could get in their national teams just as specialist batsman or specialist bowler.

Vettori and Kapil Dev look a perfect bottom tier set. Both of them were good captains for their teams, but not necessarily 'really good' compared to other allrounders across all eras. Apart from that, the list looks alright -

Top Tier
1. Imran
2. Sobbers
3. Miller

Mid tier
1. Kallis
3. Botham
4. Hadlee

Mid-bottom Tier
1. Shakib
2. Razzak
3. Klusener

Bottom tier
1. Kapil Dev
2. Vettory

I think Kapil Dev is highly overrated, he only scored one century that too against Zimbabwe, he is comparable to James Franklin as an all rounder.

 

[Canford Cliffs]

Just when I thought it cant go worse than Kapil-Razzaq comparison, I just had a good read at the thread. Someone has put Shakib over Botham and Hadley as all rounder.

This is funny but worrysome at the same time.

 

[Romali_rotti]

You keep throwing this "more talented" label around as if he achieved something great by being more talented than players who ended up leaving him far behind. If anything, it reflects poorly on his desire, or lack thereof, to achieve greatness as a cricketer.

What is the use of talent when it fails to live up to its potential, particularly away from home where his team needed him the most? Is Kohli better or Rohit Sharma? I guess I am starting to understand why "bhaijaan" made that Rahul vs Kohli thread now...

Ok agreed... Dev never lived upto his ability...

 

[Romali_rotti]

Just when I thought it cant go worse than Kapil-Razzaq comparison, I just had a good read at the thread. Someone has put Shakib over Botham and Hadley as all rounder.

This is funny but worrysome at the same time.

Sakib al Hasan who ?.. one hair on Kapil Dev's head is worth more than Sakib's whole career when he has retired.. Hope that puts things into perspective..

 

[as-95]

Honestly I would call him a borderline ATG, just below ATGs. he won't be part of any ATG team I pick (tier 1, 2 or 3). He isn't good enough with either batting or bowling. He doesn't have impact like Botham either.

This is a fair opinion. Kapil is on the borderline. I’m happy for someone to include or exclude him in the ATG List. I’m inclined to say that he misses out from the ATG list and is simply an Indian great due to his shocking performances in 6 out of 9 countries that he played in...

 

[Robert]

Just when I thought it cant go worse than Kapil-Razzaq comparison, I just had a good read at the thread. Someone has put Shakib over Botham and Hadley as all rounder.

This is funny but worrysome at the same time.

Well, loads of youngsters believe the Earth is flat.

 

[as-95]

Sakib al Hasan who ?.. one hair on Kapil Dev's head is worth more than Sakib's whole career when he has retired.. Hope that puts things into perspective..

Although I would not compare Abdul Razzaq with Kapil Dev, I think Shakib is having an outstanding career so far. Superb batsman and great bowling figures too. Would definitely argue that his skill is on par or greater than Kapil Dev’s... Shakib is undoubtedly a superior batsman and we will have to wait and see how his bowling figures are when he retires!

 

[as-95]

I’d pick Kapil every time as he scored more centuries and took twenty-three fivefers to Flintoff’s three.

His peak being short had something to do with coaching as Nasser used him as a back-of-a-length FM stock bowler. He averaged about fifty with the ball in that role for years. But Vaughan encouraged him to bowl fast and that changed his career. He didn’t pitch it up enough though, could have had a hundred more test wickets if he had done that.

Injuries wore him down fast. He was a big man and his right ankle was put under too much pressure as he landed.

It’s a shame about the coaching but the lack of professionalism and over indulging in alcohol didn’t help either! One of the most talented all rounders I have watched but as they always say... “hard work beats talent when talent fails to work hard”!

Anyway, back to the thread. I would still call Flintoff an All round great of the game. Not an ATG, but an English great and I think it’s fair to rank Kapil a Dev slightly higher than him...

 

[as-95]

Just when I thought it cant go worse than Kapil-Razzaq comparison, I just had a good read at the thread. Someone has put Shakib over Botham and Hadley as all rounder.

This is funny but worrysome at the same time.

You’re correct. He had only 1 century against the lowly Zimbabwe in ODI’s. However he had 8 test centuries... I do agree with you on the fact that he is overrated though because his bowling record in 6 out of 9 countries he played in is simply pathetic... that too, in some of the most helpful bowling conditions in the world! Do you classify Kapil Dev as an ATG? Plenty of people are now realising that he is arguably only an Indian great of the game and doesn’t deserve ATG status...

 

[Canford Cliffs]

You’re correct. He had only 1 century against the lowly Zimbabwe in ODI’s. However he had 8 test centuries... I do agree with you on the fact that he is overrated though because his bowling record in 6 out of 9 countries he played in is simply pathetic... that too, in some of the most helpful bowling conditions in the world! Do you classify Kapil Dev as an ATG? Plenty of people are now realising that he is arguably only an Indian great of the game and doesn’t deserve ATG status...

Say what? Do I classify Kapil Dev as ATG? Everyone classifies Kapil Dev as a bonafide ATG. Who are the plenty of people who realizing he wasn't? Posters like you and me in Pakpassion?

 

[Ab Fan]

Kapil Dev is a bonafide all-time great in both the formats of the game he played. Anyone who disagrees with this has absolutely zero understanding of cricket.

 

[Monsee]

Indians phir ro rahaay hain because what they always said about many Pak batsmen i.e. oh he (insert a naem here) failed in 2 countries and hence he is not a bonafide great/ATG/Great/Pak Great etc.

Now, in Kapil's case, his averages in 6 of the 9 countries is rather 'Poor' and they are having a cow (ironic) that some Pakistanis are using the same standard (oh failed in a few countries) and saying 6 out of 9 is pretty bad and saying he is not an ATG...it is not as if one of us played around with the numbers and made him look bad, he was actually quite poor in those 6 countries, which is a fact.

And, if one of them wants tro debate that, go ahead and reply to my post # 106 and advise what was mentioned is incorrect/wrong/biased and why?

 

[RainMan_]

Can't handle the heat? Get out of the kitchen.

Seriously, you think I'd let slide the fact that you think that NZ was a minnow in the 1980s in a discussion concerning that era's all rounders? . Don't take it personally pal, but you don't have the requisite knowledge of that era to indulge in this discussion in the first place, and you keep showing it again and again.

Who Can't handle the heat? Where do u think u r kiddo? It's an online discussion forum in case u didn't know it already where even short oversized idiots act all tough and think they r winning the argument by hurling personal remarks at others.

In my previous post I respectfully told u to stop getting personal, not because I can't handle the heat. I told u to stop it because two enraged posters throwing mud at each is never a pretty side. Things like this just hampers the discussion as well as degrades the quality of the forum.


Now Coming back to the actual discussion, New Zealand or SL were not a minnow. They were a team with comparatively lesser strength. Same with Zimbabwe. A team that has won a 3 match series in Asia against the very same team than went on to become the runners up of the world cup in the very same year can be anything, but not a minnow.

I just had to bring in Kapil's miserable performance against teams like NZ in NZ and against SL in odis to show u that its idiotic to discard a players performance against few selective teams especially when we r comparing players who r from two different era.

When u were slapped with the reality and shown the fact that the only odi century that Kapil has scored in his entire career came against a nation that was similar to today's associate level cricket teams, u made a futile attempt to glorify that innings. But at the same time conveniently attempted to discard Afridi's performance against the very same lesser teams(so called minnows) to make him come across inferior to DEV

So when afridi performs against so called minnows, it doesn't count, but when tailender Kapil performs against the very same teams its one of the best innings this world has ever witnessed, huh?

Nobody cares about India's WC Semi 2003 win vs Kenya, nor to Ganguly's century in the same match. Nobody would have cared for Kapil's 175 either if the scorecard read -

India 325-4 (60)
Zim 189 (49.3)

It assumes significance because, as I mentioned:

A) India was 17/5 when Kapil came into bat
B) India wouldn't have progressed to further rounds in the WC had they lost the match.

Really, it isn't that hard to understand, is it?

Also,
Shahid Afridi has a peak batting ranking of 24 in ODIs, in contrast Kapil Dev's highest batting ranking in ODIs is No.6. At various stages of his career, he was the highest ranked Indian ODI BATSMAN as well on top of being the highest ranked Indian ODI bowler. How many players in the history of cricket can claim to have had such a distinction?

Who do u think is remotely interested to know what u care about and what u don't care about. Its quite clear that u have a selective memory. Hence, u only remember Kapil's overrated 175 against an associate level nation. But forget other players performance against very same oppositions.

Of course afridi and Kapil belongs in the almost same league in lois, at least their performance away from in home somewhat indicates that.

Here is Kapil's mediocore batting and bowling average in odis


Compared to that mediocrity here is afridis batting and bowling average away from home


Look at the average difference between their bat and ball. Then add the fact that overall afridi has 6 centuries among which one was in just 37 balls, a record that remained intact for almost 10/12 years compared to only one century kapil managed to score in his entire career. But here u have shown the audacity to call him a hack when in reality Kapil is abigger hack.

You're talking about an era where quite a few illustrious batsmen like Border, Gavaskar, Gower, Gooch, Vengsarkar, Amarnath etc etc averaged 30-35 in ODIs. Kapil was a far far better batsman under that yardstick as evidenced by his ICC rankings as an ODI batsman which was always around the Top 20 as compared to Afrdi who played well in to the 2000s and yet couldn't drag his batting average to even 25.

How many times will you shoot in your own foot, huh . So batting was quite difficult in that era. If that is the case then we have to automatically assume that bowling was comparatively much easier during that period. Then how come Kapil has pathetic bowling record in such a bowling friendly era in fast bowling friendly conditions of ENG, NZ, SA, ,

here's kapils mediocre bowling average in tests
overall average away from home in - 33
in ENG- 39, in NZ-42, in Pak-40, in SA- 37 and in SL- 34

So, Kapil was a nothing batsman which gets evident from the fact that he averaged 19 away from home in odis, he was a nothing bowler which gets evident from his mediocre bowling average in 6/7 countries in test. so what was he exactly? But hey, who needs to have actual performance when u have indian media blabbering the same nonsense to glorify this overrated hack, huh?

Exactly, like Botham and Kapil's ODI records where Kapil has:

a) Better batting average
b) Better bowling average
c) Better batting strike rate
d) More 50+ scores
e) More 4 wicket+ performances

Not to mention Botham hardly played ODIs in Asia. So, are you full already or do I need to spoon feed you more as far as the ODI comparison is concerned?

Botham averaged 32+ with the ball in the 1980s Tests, in spite of playing half his career in favorable conditions. And you talking about how Kapil could score "only" 8 Test centuries , tell me how many all rounders in your little list on Post 96 have more Test centuries than Kapil?

Yeah, right.. talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

Whats this nonsensical stats of 80s? Why only 80s when both Kapil and botham statrted and ended their career almost at the same time. Yet another futile attempt of urs to keep mediocre kapil relevant to a great all rounder like botham ?

Here is bothams batting and bowling average away from home in tests


Here is Kapils record



Botham averages 26 with the bat away from home in odis compared to kapils tailenderish average of 19 . Similarly, with the ball botham averages 28 in odis compared to kapils 32.

Botham was a genuine allrounder and belongs in ATG category, at least he has stats to back it up. Whereas Kapil has become famous because of shameless bragging of the Indian media who got thrashed as a bowler in almost every single country and as an allrounder belong to the category of Afridi, Razzak, Vettory etc.

 

[Proactive_]

Who Can't handle the heat? Where do u think u r kiddo? It's an online discussion forum in case u didn't know it already where even short oversized idiots act all tough and think they r winning the argument by hurling personal remarks at others.

U mad bro?

In my previous post I respectfully told u to stop getting personal, not because I can't handle the heat. I told u to stop it because two enraged posters throwing mud at each is never a pretty side. Things like this just hampers the discussion as well as degrades the quality of the forum.

I didn't get personal. I only said that you have no clue of what you're talking about, which is true. Anybody who thinks NZ was a minnow or even a weak team in the 80s while concurrently making big statements about cricketers' of the 1980s needs to be called out for for their sheer lack of knowledge. NZ won away series against Aus and Eng in the 1980s and were the ONLY team to win a test series against WI throughout that decade.

Now Coming back to the actual discussion, New Zealand or SL were not a minnow. They were a team with comparatively lesser strength. Same with Zimbabwe. A team that has won a 3 match series in Asia against the very same team than went on to become the runners up of the world cup in the very same year can be anything, but not a minnow.

Even removing Zimbabwe, Afridi bashed the likes of Kenya, HK and Netherlands for a bowling average of 16. His averages against Top teams is close to 40. Kapil Dev on the other hand has a bowling average better than 31 against every team he played against. It's embarrassing that you even brought up that comparison .

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...rderby=default;template=results;type=allround

I just had to bring in Kapil's miserable performance against teams like NZ in NZ and against SL in odis to show u that its idiotic to discard a players performance against few selective teams especially when we r comparing players who r from two different era.

Except that fact that Kapil actually performed against all oppositions unlike Afridi whose average falls to near 40 with the ball in ODIs against non minnows.

When u were slapped with the reality and shown the fact that the only odi century that Kapil has scored in his entire career came against a nation that was similar to today's associate level cricket teams, u made a futile attempt to glorify that innings. But at the same time conveniently attempted to discard Afridi's performance against the very same lesser teams(so called minnows) to make him come across inferior to DEV

You do realize that Imran, Botham and Hadlee have a combined 1 ODI century, right? You're talking as if all the other all rounders were bashing 10s of centuries while Kapil had only one. And the significance of that innings has been explained to you before, but seeing you don't get things quickly.. I'll tell you again:

It assumes significance because, as I mentioned:

A) India was 17/5 when Kapil came into bat
B) India wouldn't have progressed to further rounds in the WC had they lost the match.

Really, it isn't that hard to understand, is it?

So when afridi performs against so called minnows, it doesn't count, but when tailender Kapil performs against the very same teams its one of the best innings this world has ever witnessed, huh?



Who do u think is remotely interested to know what u care about and what u don't care about. Its quite clear that u have a selective memory. Hence, u only remember Kapil's overrated 175 against an associate level nation. But forget other players performance against very same oppositions.

Of course afridi and Kapil belongs in the almost same league in lois, at least their performance away from in home somewhat indicates that.

Here is Kapil's mediocore batting and bowling average in odis
View attachment 86702

Compared to that mediocrity here is afridis batting and bowling average away from home
View attachment 86703

Look at the average difference between their bat and ball. Then add the fact that overall afridi has 6 centuries among which one was in just 37 balls, a record that remained intact for almost 10/12 years compared to only one century kapil managed to score in his entire career. But here u have shown the audacity to call him a hack when in reality Kapil is abigger hack.




How many times will you shoot in your own foot, huh . So batting was quite difficult in that era. If that is the case then we have to automatically assume that bowling was comparatively much easier during that period. Then how come Kapil has pathetic bowling record in such a bowling friendly era in fast bowling friendly conditions of ENG, NZ, SA, ,

here's kapils mediocre bowling average in tests
overall average away from home in - 33
in ENG- 39, in NZ-42, in Pak-40, in SA- 37 and in SL- 34

So, Kapil was a nothing batsman which gets evident from the fact that he averaged 19 away from home in odis, he was a nothing bowler which gets evident from his mediocre bowling average in 6/7 countries in test. so what was he exactly? But hey, who needs to have actual performance when u have indian media blabbering the same nonsense to glorify this overrated hack, huh?






Whats this nonsensical stats of 80s? Why only 80s when both Kapil and botham statrted and ended their career almost at the same time. Yet another futile attempt of urs to keep mediocre kapil relevant to a great all rounder like botham ?

Here is bothams batting and bowling average away from home in tests
View attachment 86700

Here is Kapils record
View attachment 86701


Botham averages 26 with the bat away from home in odis compared to kapils tailenderish average of 19 . Similarly, with the ball botham averages 28 in odis compared to kapils 32.

Botham was a genuine allrounder and belongs in ATG category, at least he has stats to back it up. Whereas Kapil has become famous because of shameless bragging of the Indian media who got thrashed as a bowler in almost every single country and as an allrounder belong to the category of Afridi, Razzak, Vettory etc.

See, this is where you show your lack of knowledge once again.

Shahid Afridi has a peak batting ranking of 24 in ODIs, in contrast Kapil Dev's highest batting ranking in ODIs is No.6. At various stages of his career, he was the highest ranked Indian ODI BATSMAN as well on top of being the highest ranked Indian ODI bowler. How many players in the history of cricket can claim to have had such a distinction? You're talking about an era where quite a few illustrious batsmen like Border, Gavaskar, Gower, Gooch, Vengsarkar, Amarnath etc etc averaged 30-35 in ODIs. Kapil was a far far better batsman under that yardstick as evidenced by his ICC rankings as an ODI batsman which was always around the Top 20 as compared to Afrdi who played well in to the 2000s and yet couldn't drag his batting average to even 25.

As a bowler in Tests he was a consistently Top 10 ranked bowler for almost a decade and a half. His rankings at the start of every year from 1980 onwards:

1980 - 2
1981 - 3
1982 - 8
1983 - 11
1984 - 3
1985 - 7
1986- 6
1987 - 6
1988 - 6
1989 - 10
1990- 5
1991 - 11
1992- 9
1993- 8
1994 - 8

Also, since you'll ignore the Botham comparison, I'll once again point out that Kapil with respect to Botham in ODIs has:

a) Better batting average
b) Better bowling average
c) Better batting strike rate
d) More 50+ scores
e) More 4 wicket+ performances

Not to mention Botham hardly played ODIs in Asia and played majority of his ODIs in NZ, Aus, WI and Eng.

As I said, don't take it personally, but you're embarrassing yourself here. You already made sure to let everyone know of your sheer lack of knowledge by calling NZ a weak team in the 1980s, then you compared Kapil to Afridi of all people , then you said Kapil doesn't belong in the same sentence as Botham when statistics prove otherwise. I suggest you to get better material in your next post because debunking all the nonsense that you've been posting until now is as easy as taking candy from a baby.

 

[Swashbuckler]

[MENTION=81]Monsee[/MENTION] You take FC's hyperbolic statements too seriously. He does that very often to generate more views and comments, kinda like clickbait. There is a reason why most of his threads go on for multiple pages and attract heated discussions . No sane person will deny Imran's status as tier 1 ATG and no one will deny that Kapil < Imran. Of course by statistical analysis every career (except Bradman's) will have some faults but overall picture shows who's who. Statistical nitpicking can work when 2 players have identical stats but the gap between Imran and Kapil is quite high especially in the ultimate format, so nitpicking is of no use. Those who use such tools to change the conclusion are either trolling or only fooling themselves for winning internet debates, a meaningless exercise !!!

And the showboating and downplaying works both ways. Some Indians do downplay Pakistanis and some Pakistanis downplay Indian players (including some ATGs both ways), even on this forum. There is a section of fans in both sides who use clever filtering of stats and unreasonable conditions to make certain players look bad. I can give enough examples of both cases but what's the purpose? I would rather try to be objective in my analysis and won't bother about these trivial things unless someone is blatantly lying and even there I won't waste too much of my time. And generalization serves no purpose, not all Indians are on the same page.

 

[Adijazz1706]

Who Can't handle the heat? Where do u think u r kiddo? It's an online discussion forum in case u didn't know it already where even short oversized idiots act all tough and think they r winning the argument by hurling personal remarks at others.

In my previous post I respectfully told u to stop getting personal, not because I can't handle the heat. I told u to stop it because two enraged posters throwing mud at each is never a pretty side. Things like this just hampers the discussion as well as degrades the quality of the forum.


Now Coming back to the actual discussion, New Zealand or SL were not a minnow. They were a team with comparatively lesser strength. Same with Zimbabwe. A team that has won a 3 match series in Asia against the very same team than went on to become the runners up of the world cup in the very same year can be anything, but not a minnow.

I just had to bring in Kapil's miserable performance against teams like NZ in NZ and against SL in odis to show u that its idiotic to discard a players performance against few selective teams especially when we r comparing players who r from two different era.

When u were slapped with the reality and shown the fact that the only odi century that Kapil has scored in his entire career came against a nation that was similar to today's associate level cricket teams, u made a futile attempt to glorify that innings. But at the same time conveniently attempted to discard Afridi's performance against the very same lesser teams(so called minnows) to make him come across inferior to DEV

So when afridi performs against so called minnows, it doesn't count, but when tailender Kapil performs against the very same teams its one of the best innings this world has ever witnessed, huh?



Who do u think is remotely interested to know what u care about and what u don't care about. Its quite clear that u have a selective memory. Hence, u only remember Kapil's overrated 175 against an associate level nation. But forget other players performance against very same oppositions.

Of course afridi and Kapil belongs in the almost same league in lois, at least their performance away from in home somewhat indicates that.

Here is Kapil's mediocore batting and bowling average in odis
View attachment 86702

Compared to that mediocrity here is afridis batting and bowling average away from home
View attachment 86703

Look at the average difference between their bat and ball. Then add the fact that overall afridi has 6 centuries among which one was in just 37 balls, a record that remained intact for almost 10/12 years compared to only one century kapil managed to score in his entire career. But here u have shown the audacity to call him a hack when in reality Kapil is abigger hack.




How many times will you shoot in your own foot, huh . So batting was quite difficult in that era. If that is the case then we have to automatically assume that bowling was comparatively much easier during that period. Then how come Kapil has pathetic bowling record in such a bowling friendly era in fast bowling friendly conditions of ENG, NZ, SA, ,

here's kapils mediocre bowling average in tests
overall average away from home in - 33
in ENG- 39, in NZ-42, in Pak-40, in SA- 37 and in SL- 34

So, Kapil was a nothing batsman which gets evident from the fact that he averaged 19 away from home in odis, he was a nothing bowler which gets evident from his mediocre bowling average in 6/7 countries in test. so what was he exactly? But hey, who needs to have actual performance when u have indian media blabbering the same nonsense to glorify this overrated hack, huh?






Whats this nonsensical stats of 80s? Why only 80s when both Kapil and botham statrted and ended their career almost at the same time. Yet another futile attempt of urs to keep mediocre kapil relevant to a great all rounder like botham ?

Here is bothams batting and bowling average away from home in tests
View attachment 86700

Here is Kapils record
View attachment 86701


Botham averages 26 with the bat away from home in odis compared to kapils tailenderish average of 19 . Similarly, with the ball botham averages 28 in odis compared to kapils 32.

Botham was a genuine allrounder and belongs in ATG category, at least he has stats to back it up. Whereas Kapil has become famous because of shameless bragging of the Indian media who got thrashed as a bowler in almost every single country and as an allrounder belong to the category of Afridi, Razzak, Vettory etc.

Whattay post bro, so you can be reasonable if Bangladesh aren't involved

 

[Bilal7]

Kapil Dev is a bonafide all-time great in both the formats of the game he played. Anyone who disagrees with this has absolutely zero understanding of cricket.

Anyone who says this has no idea of his stats outside of India, Australia and West Indies.

 

[Ab Fan]

Anyone who says this has no idea of his stats outside of India, Australia and West Indies.

Well, what are Waqar's ODI stats in Australia, West Indies, India and Sri Lanka? But he is an ATG bowler, right?

Kapil Dev was atleast an all-rounder,not a bowler and no one is calling him an ATG bowler. West Indies and Australia were two major teams we are talking about and he did it with literally no support from other end. He also had longevity on his side.

A great great bowler and a good batsmen who will walk into most teams at no. 7. Brilliant captain and a brilliant fielder. An ATG player all in all for me.

 

[Monsee]

[MENTION=81]Monsee[/MENTION] You take FC's hyperbolic statements too seriously. He does that very often to generate more views and comments, kinda like clickbait. There is a reason why most of his threads go on for multiple pages and attract heated discussions . No sane person will deny Imran's status as tier 1 ATG and no one will deny that Kapil < Imran. Of course by statistical analysis every career (except Bradman's) will have some faults but overall picture shows who's who. Statistical nitpicking can work when 2 players have identical stats but the gap between Imran and Kapil is quite high especially in the ultimate format, so nitpicking is of no use. Those who use such tools to change the conclusion are either trolling or only fooling themselves for winning internet debates, a meaningless exercise !!!

And the showboating and downplaying works both ways. Some Indians do downplay Pakistanis and some Pakistanis downplay Indian players (including some ATGs both ways), even on this forum. There is a section of fans in both sides who use clever filtering of stats and unreasonable conditions to make certain players look bad. I can give enough examples of both cases but what's the purpose? I would rather try to be objective in my analysis and won't bother about these trivial things unless someone is blatantly lying and even there I won't waste too much of my time. And generalization serves no purpose, not all Indians are on the same page.

I appreciate the direct and honest message and agree with most of it. The bold part, I don't completely agree with, IMO and a high majority of Pak posters here will agree as well, that a huge majority of Indian posters on PP will down play most/all Pak players and will end up lighting fires in expressing their disdain for the records of any Pak player (XYZ) being appreciated or celebrated in a thread, most times not at the expense of an Indian player!

It is as if it hurts them that we celebrate a player and think highly of him and that they forget after all this is a message board and started and maintained primarily by Pak fans as well.

 

[Tusker]

I appreciate the direct and honest message and agree with most of it. The bold part, I don't completely agree with, IMO and a high majority of Pak posters here will agree as well, that a huge majority of Indian posters on PP will down play most/all Pak players and will end up lighting fires in expressing their disdain for the records of any Pak player (XYZ) being appreciated or celebrated in a thread, most times not at the expense of an Indian player!

It is as if it hurts them that we celebrate a player and think highly of him and that they forget after all this is a message board and started and maintained primarily by Pak fans as well.

Have you ever seen an Indian Poster ridiculing say Wasim Akram ? He is very well respected and liked in India. Same is true for Waqar too. Dont let posts of few trolls dictate things about Indians.

 

[Romali_rotti]

I appreciate the direct and honest message and agree with most of it. The bold part, I don't completely agree with, IMO and a high majority of Pak posters here will agree as well, that a huge majority of Indian posters on PP will down play most/all Pak players and will end up lighting fires in expressing their disdain for the records of any Pak player (XYZ) being appreciated or celebrated in a thread, most times not at the expense of an Indian player!

It is as if it hurts them that we celebrate a player and think highly of him and that they forget after all this is a message board and started and maintained primarily by Pak fans as well.

Bro,

The highlighted bit is your problem, you show me one Indian poster on here who said Dev is the better overall complete player than Imran ? I would be awfully surprised if you can find one, if you do, that poster should be like a collectable's item on here.. Now I do get what you are trying to say here, you are obviously irritated by Indians on here don't rate INZI. I myself do not rate Inzi, sorry the guy never showed up against the best teams of his ERA, I am a person that totally believes; you only earn your stripes once you performed against the BEST. I do not care how much of a hero you were vs lesser nations however if you cant hang with the best, you are not good enough in my opinion...

 

[Romali_rotti]

@ Monsee,

You accused Indians of trying to put down Pakistani players, of the 13 odd years of knowing you here, barring Kapil Dev, you have actively always put Indian players down at every chance you got and have not said good things about any of the Indians from my recollection... So maybe you need to look yourself in the mirror also ?

 

[Romali_rotti]

Sakib al Hasan lol... how the heck did this nobody come into this thread ? )..

I repeat again:

1 Hair on Kapil's head, worth more than Sakib's whole career after he has retired

 

[Adijazz1706]

Sakib al Hasan lol... how the heck did this nobody come into this thread ? )..

I repeat again:

1 Hair on Kapil's head, worth more than Sakib's whole career after he has retired

Shakib has better stats so not sure about the '1 hair on his head' hyperbole

 

[Romali_rotti]

Shakib has better stats so not sure about the '1 hair on his head' hyperbole

Dev would have Bradman lik stats had he faced the mediocre competition which Sakib al Hasan has played most of his career...........

I look at Sakib al Hasan as irrelevant, he is what he is; a star minnow who has played poor opponents most of his life, chickened out of the South Africa tour...


Ermmm

Yeah he is a nobody,

 

[RainMan_]

u mad bro?



I didn't get personal. I only said that you have no clue of what you're talking about, which is true. Anybody who thinks nz was a minnow or even a weak team in the 80s while concurrently making big statements about cricketers' of the 1980s needs to be called out for for their sheer lack of knowledge. Nz won away series against aus and eng in the 1980s and were the only team to win a test series against wi throughout that decade.




Even removing zimbabwe, afridi bashed the likes of kenya, hk and netherlands for a bowling average of 16. His averages against top teams is close to 40. Kapil dev on the other hand has a bowling average better than 31 against every team he played against. It's embarrassing that you even brought up that comparison .

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...rderby=default;template=results;type=allround





except that fact that kapil actually performed against all oppositions unlike afridi whose average falls to near 40 with the ball in odis against non minnows.



You do realize that imran, botham and hadlee have a combined 1 odi century, right? You're talking as if all the other all rounders were bashing 10s of centuries while kapil had only one. And the significance of that innings has been explained to you before, but seeing you don't get things quickly.. I'll tell you again:

It assumes significance because, as i mentioned:

A) india was 17/5 when kapil came into bat
b) india wouldn't have progressed to further rounds in the wc had they lost the match.

Really, it isn't that hard to understand, is it?



See, this is where you show your lack of knowledge once again.

Shahid afridi has a peak batting ranking of 24 in odis, in contrast kapil dev's highest batting ranking in odis is no.6. At various stages of his career, he was the highest ranked indian odi batsman as well on top of being the highest ranked indian odi bowler. How many players in the history of cricket can claim to have had such a distinction? You're talking about an era where quite a few illustrious batsmen like border, gavaskar, gower, gooch, vengsarkar, amarnath etc etc averaged 30-35 in odis. Kapil was a far far better batsman under that yardstick as evidenced by his icc rankings as an odi batsman which was always around the top 20 as compared to afrdi who played well in to the 2000s and yet couldn't drag his batting average to even 25.

As a bowler in tests he was a consistently top 10 ranked bowler for almost a decade and a half. His rankings at the start of every year from 1980 onwards:

1980 - 2
1981 - 3
1982 - 8
1983 - 11
1984 - 3
1985 - 7
1986- 6
1987 - 6
1988 - 6
1989 - 10
1990- 5
1991 - 11
1992- 9
1993- 8
1994 - 8

also, since you'll ignore the botham comparison, i'll once again point out that kapil with respect to botham in odis has:

A) better batting average
b) better bowling average
c) better batting strike rate
d) more 50+ scores
e) more 4 wicket+ performances

not to mention botham hardly played odis in asia and played majority of his odis in nz, aus, wi and eng.

As i said, don't take it personally, but you're embarrassing yourself here. You already made sure to let everyone know of your sheer lack of knowledge by calling nz a weak team in the 1980s, then you compared kapil to afridi of all people , then you said kapil doesn't belong in the same sentence as botham when statistics prove otherwise. I suggest you to get better material in your next post because debunking all the nonsense that you've been posting until now is as easy as taking candy from a baby.

U just repeated the post I quoted in my previous post. I've already got a pretty good idea about ur actual capabilities aside from hurling personal remarks

No point in continuing the discussion further.

 

[RainMan_]

Whattay post bro, so you can be reasonable if Bangladesh aren't involved

Thank u.

 

[RainMan_]

Sakib al Hasan lol... how the heck did this nobody come into this thread ? )..

I repeat again:

1 Hair on Kapil's head, worth more than Sakib's whole career after he has retired

Ur frustration is quite visible. Sorry to burst all the bubbles involving Kapil.

Shakib is the Second best allrounder to ever come out of Asia. Never forget that my friend.

 

[Proactive_]

U just repeated the post I quoted in my previous post. I've already got a pretty good idea about ur actual capabilities aside from hurling personal remarks

No point in continuing the discussion further.

Because you didn't address my points, of course I'll keep shoving it back to you. BTW, I realized your capabilities the moment you called NZ a minnow in the 1980s. That was hilarious.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Ur frustration is quite visible. Sorry to burst all the bubbles involving Kapil.

Shakib is the Second best allrounder to ever come out of Asia. Never forget that my friend.

Ohh just saw your posts, sorry I barely even look at your posts.. However stop pretending to be a Bangla fan, you are not one as per other Bangla posters on here

 

[Ab Fan]

Well, what are Waqar's ODI stats in Australia, West Indies, India and Sri Lanka? But he is an ATG bowler, right?

Kapil Dev was atleast an all-rounder,not a bowler and no one is calling him an ATG bowler. West Indies and Australia were two major teams we are talking about and he did it with literally no support from other end. He also had longevity on his side.

A great great bowler and a good batsmen who will walk into most teams at no. 7. Brilliant captain and a brilliant fielder. An ATG player all in all for me.

[MENTION=129948]Bilal7[/MENTION], or for that matter, what are James Anderson's stats outside England, UAE and West Indies?

And those two weren't even top tier teams during Anderson era like WI and Australia are in Kapil's era.