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Why do Pakistani pacers lose their pace so quickly after a promising start to their careers?

Savak said:
It's funny how they aren't the legacy of the likes of Starc, Bolt, Rabadda etc when they have suffered against these players as well.
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Why compare him to modern greats? Rauf is not fit to lace their boots. These guys have done it across all teams and all batsmen multiple times across formats. What are Rauf's career achievements?

He ran away from Test cricket after one innings where he got carted around at 7 runs an over. Rauf is a nobody. He is no different than someone like Tymal Mills, a T20 specialist at best but the Pakistan hype machine has made him look like the second coming of Shoaib Akhtar and Jeff Thompson.

Don't disrespect greats Starc, Boult and Rabada by comparing them to Rauf. They have suffered against Kohli and Rohit but they also made them suffer. This is what happens when world class players compete.
 
hoshiarpurexpress said:
Yeah I have observed that. He was making wild gestures against Netherlands batters and Ishan Kishan, but never shows same aggression against Rohit/Kohli/Warner etc.
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Ishan Kishan is a tremendous ball striker. He is more than good enough to make mincemeat of Rauf the next time they face each other and I hope that happens because that send-off was unnecessary.

Ishan proved himself to be the bigger person by not reacting, but he has taken care of far better bowlers than Rauf.

Ishan the batsman >>>> Rauf the bowler.
 
Our pacers (some of them) courtesy deluded fans, social media and bogus journalists create their fake aura by glorifying their micky mouse league performances as if they are in a global tournament add to it lack of judgement regarding how to use your energy and playing all random like a hardworking animal just suckks the lift out of them as a result most these bowlers will have a short international career therefore no legacy
 
Bhaijaan said:
When did Shaheen ever clock 148 clicks or above? That’s in the territory of Zaheer , Nehra level extreme pace. Don’t think SSA was ever that quick.
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I have seen him hit 151 and even 152 multiple times.
 
CerebralPatriot said:
Even before injury I had always thought Shaheen was overrated. He only had one delivery which was the big in swinger and although it has been effective, in time big teams will have realised that is his main weapon and develop a plan to counter it

Post injury however he has seen his pace go down 5-10 km's and as a result he has been rendered ineffective. It's sad to see but was quite predictable seeing that he would try to play any league rather than focusing on staying fit for his country

This is why I had always believed Mir Hamza to be a better investment post Amir's retirement. Although not as pacey as Shaheen, he is a brilliant swing- seam bowler who has grinded in domestics for years and I think all that effort should have not gone in-vein.
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He’s been average in whatever chance he has got.
 
Mamoon said:
If Pakistan is smart, they should already plan for life post Haris Rauf. Maybe replace him with Ihsanullah because Rauf is a gone case.

Only good for "showing eyes" to smaller team with shareef batsmen but turns into a kitten when pitted against alpha batsmen like Kohli and Rohit.

Those two sixes against Kohli and three sixes against Rohit will forever be his legacy.
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Some nice Andrew Tate-esque vocabulary right there.
 
Bhaijaan said:
When did Shaheen ever clock 148 clicks or above? That’s in the territory of Zaheer , Nehra level extreme pace. Don’t think SSA was ever that quick.
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Zaheer Khan was a true trundler bowling at 132 kph and Nehra around max low 140s. But both were good swing bowlers though.
 
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It’s only with recent bowlers you see this.
I will not mention the 2-3 past greats, but if you look at Akhtar, Sami, Riaz and also Umar Gul, they all maintained good pace throughout their careers. I was very surprised by Gul who got faster and faster and at one stage he was bowling 148-150 for fun.
 
lack of first class cricket, they are used to bowling far less overs domestically, so there bodies dont develop the endurance for multiple seasons of multi format and test cricket.

most Pakistani cricketers tend not to be pretty educated so dont understand the biomechanics of their own body and fail to see signs of breaking down

they eventually break down and not having the full confidence to crank up the pace tend to lose pace as they get older, and also they lie about their ages so tend to peak in mid 20s rather than late 20s like most other countries.
 
ElRaja said:
lack of first class cricket, they are used to bowling far less overs domestically, so there bodies dont develop the endurance for multiple seasons of multi format and test cricket.

most Pakistani cricketers tend not to be pretty educated so dont understand the biomechanics of their own body and fail to see signs of breaking down

they eventually break down and not having the full confidence to crank up the pace tend to lose pace as they get older, and also they lie about their ages so tend to peak in mid 20s rather than late 20s like most other countries.
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Agree with this. I think first-class cricket would do a lot of these players a world of good.
 
IAJ said:
Oh jaan day yaar. Zaheer Khan was a true trundler bowling at 132 kph and Nehra around max low 140s. But both were good swing bowlers though.
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In their last years they were line length bowlers.

In the beginning they were among the fastest left armerw ever.
 
ArabKnight said:
Nah he’s not. He’s a Jatt. They are strong fit and have good hormones.

He can still bowl at 140 kmph. He relies on variations; in-swing, reverse swing. He attacks the stumps, he bowls full, and of course he has a nasty slow ball. He’s the only pacer with a high IQ, skill set, and fitness in our country.
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Don;t care what is Jat or Nat or something else, all I know this older looking , short guy looks very weak and can;t bowl past 130 and gives an impression of a 2nd class club level bowler.
 
The last Pakistan fast bowler to take 200 Test wickets was Waqar Younis. The last two Pakistan bowlers to take 200 ODI wickets were Razzak & Akthar who both finished in 2011. So this is not something new. Pakistan haven't had a bowler in the last 12-13 years who has been consistent in any format and played for a while. In Tests it has been longer. SSA is the major hope at the moment for Pakistan. If he falls off then I don't see anyone breaching any of the above mark for a while.
 
IAJ said:
Oh jaan day yaar. Zaheer Khan was a true trundler bowling at 132 kph and Nehra around max low 140s. But both were good swing bowlers though.
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I believe & somewhat remember Zaheer Nehra bowling 140+ at 03 wc & occasionally clocking 145, very rarely though. Obviously he is exaggerating a bit, but they were bowling with decent pace at that period but were never fast enough to touch 148-150. SSA until recently has always been comfortably faster than either of them.
 
Imran, Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib, Sami, Gul & Wahab were better athletes than any of the current generation fast bowlers. They were tougher & had better endurance. Also they were all fast class cricketers which meant they were used to bowling quick in longer spells. They knew how to take better care of their bodies & with the exception of Shoaib all led more or less disciplined lives.
 
VForVendetta said:
I believe & somewhat remember Zaheer Nehra bowling 140+ at 03 wc & occasionally clocking 145, very rarely though. Obviously he is exaggerating a bit, but they were bowling with decent pace at that period but were never fast enough to touch 148-150. SSA until recently has always been comfortably faster than either of them.
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Speed guns are not really that accurate. No way Zaheer Khan was bowling in 140s. He never bowled that quick. In the 2000s only Sreesanth & Ishant Sharma bowled consistently in the 140s. Ishant even touched 150 kph in his initial years. Munaf Patel also started off in the mid 140s but quickly went down to 130s after his knee injury. After that Umesh Yadav & Varun Aaron were genuinely quick - often touching 150 kph in their initial days

Also Shaheen Shah never bowled 150 kph. Its more likely the speed guns in PSL are faulty or rigged. I once saw ben Stokes bowling at 150 kph in IPL !

Also its down to reputation. If Shaheen was Indian right now he wud be getting trolled as trundler. Bcoz he is Pakistani he is still labelled as ' fast bowler" even though he currently bowls at the same pace as Bhuvi & Hardik Pandya !
 
NishanKonar said:
Speed guns are not really that accurate. No way Zaheer Khan was bowling in 140s. He never bowled that quick. In the 2000s only Sreesanth & Ishant Sharma bowled consistently in the 140s. Ishant even touched 150 kph in his initial years. Munaf Patel also started off in the mid 140s but quickly went down to 130s after his knee injury. After that Umesh Yadav & Varun Aaron were genuinely quick - often touching 150 kph in their initial days

Also Shaheen Shah never bowled 150 kph. Its more likely the speed guns in PSL are faulty or rigged. I once saw ben Stokes bowling at 150 kph in IPL !

Also its down to reputation. If Shaheen was Indian right now he wud be getting trolled as trundler. Bcoz he is Pakistani he is still labelled as ' fast bowler" even though he currently bowls at the same pace as Bhuvi & Hardik Pandya !
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You can revisit some of the matches from 03 world cup or 00 champions trophy to be confirmed whether Zaheer was bowling 140+ or not. Like I already mentioned, both he & Nehra were hitting those but inconsistently. They were never genuine fast but could bowl a quick effort ball. If speed guns are not really accurate then genuine pace demons like Akhtar, Lee, Bond, Tate also come under suspicion, don't they?
Not only Ishant, Sreesanth & Munaf ; for a brief period RP Singh & VRV Singh also were hitting 140+. None of these guys were ever consistent though & with every injury & break their pace would decrease dramatically. Munaf in particular within a year became 130 trundler from a genuine 140 merchant. Historically Srinath, Umesh, Shami & Bumrah are the only Indians who have maintained their pace for a longer period.
I remember Shaheen hitting 150+ in 21 t20 world cup, both against Ind & Aus. As for his current status, he is getting called out. In this very forum, many people including his countrymen are calling him trundlers. If he doesn't recover his pace he will be known as a trundler much like Hasan Ali.
 
VForVendetta said:
You can revisit some of the matches from 03 world cup or 00 champions trophy to be confirmed whether Zaheer was bowling 140+ or not. Like I already mentioned, both he & Nehra were hitting those but inconsistently. They were never genuine fast but could bowl a quick effort ball. If speed guns are not really accurate then genuine pace demons like Akhtar, Lee, Bond, Tate also come under suspicion, don't they?
Not only Ishant, Sreesanth & Munaf ; for a brief period RP Singh & VRV Singh also were hitting 140+. None of these guys were ever consistent though & with every injury & break their pace would decrease dramatically. Munaf in particular within a year became 130 trundler from a genuine 140 merchant. Historically Srinath, Umesh, Shami & Bumrah are the only Indians who have maintained their pace for a longer period.
I remember Shaheen hitting 150+ in 21 t20 world cup, both against Ind & Aus. As for his current status, he is getting called out. In this very forum, many people including his countrymen are calling him trundlers. If he doesn't recover his pace he will be known as a trundler much like Hasan Ali.
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like I said speed guns in 90s & early 2000s were never accurate. Check the speed gun readings from 1999 World Cup. Javagal Srinath was clocked at 150 kph. Geoff Allot the medium pacer was clocked at 145 kph. When Shoaib Akhtar clocked 100 mph in 2003 WC - the batter Nick Knight said that delivery did not feel anything special. Adam Gilchrist also said the same about Brett Lee when he supposedly bowled the fastest delivery in 2002.

I remember in 2002 Zaheer was playing in West Indies & speed gun shopwed 135 kph. 2 months later he was bowling in England & the speed gun started showing 140 plus. Then he played in Colombo for ICC Champions Trophy and speed gun again showed 135 kph. Do u think his pace was varying so much or its just that speed guns in England were probably not good enough

Regarding RP Singh & VRV Singh - yes they did clock 140 plus in their initial years but faded quickly. Srinath was pretty quick and bowled in the late 140s before his back injury. Shami , Ishant, & Bumrah were mostly in low to mid 140s but only Umesh & Varun Aaron regularly clocked 150 kph

Speed guns are not exact science. U can say whether a bowler is clocking 150 kph from the zip & pace of the pitch & way the batsman reacts. Shaheen never gave that vibe. He was always a low 140s or late 130s type of bowler. Haris Rauf d look 150 kph when he cranks it up
 
Think we're getting sidetracked from OP's question about why our seamers struggle to maintain pace. Whether these guys are any good is another matter.

Lack of recovery time from injuries

We must stop rushing players back prematurely from injury. Shaheen should've taken no part in the 2022 T20 World Cup which aggravated his knee issue. There'll be a short-term hit in results and the media/fans will shout, but think about the next 10-15 years not 10-15 matches of these players.

If somebody has a long layoff - let them slowly build up their workload in domestic or PSL before they return to Pakistan team.

Mishandling of injuries

Time and again we hear PCB's medical panel mishandling injuries to the point where players are going overseas for treatment. I'm sure they're all qualified professionals but how many understand the unique physiology of cricketers, and the stresses and strains of fast bowling which's the most arduous task in cricket ?

Sports medicine has become a very sophisticated subprofession within medicine so PCB should consider recruiting doctors with sports backgrounds.

Lack of rest and rotation between matches

It's inexcusable to play Shaheen, Naseem and Rauf against Nepal in the 40°C heat of Multan so soon after LPL and the Afghanistan ODIs in hot and humid Sri Lanka, especially with Naseem already carrying a niggle. It's inexcusable why Naseem and Rauf played in the Netherlands series last summer (don't forget Shaheen travelled too !)

Whether the players are so insecure they refuse to relinquish their positions, or the management are so insecure about losing even meaningless bilaterals - PCB must show leadership and create a policy of resting our frontline pacers for these low-stakes matches.

Players must take responsibility

There's plenty of areas where PCB and management can improve. However ultimately our cricketers must take responsibility for their fitness. I understand the argument these boys are from humble backgrounds etc but you chose this profession. You chose to be a professional athlete so educate yourselves. Don't rely on inept PCB to spoonfeed you. Don't hide injuries from management. If you need a rest, say so. If you're given a rehab program then follow it.
 
CerebralPatriot said:
Even before injury I had always thought Shaheen was overrated. He only had one delivery which was the big in swinger and although it has been effective, in time big teams will have realised that is his main weapon and develop a plan to counter it

Post injury however he has seen his pace go down 5-10 km's and as a result he has been rendered ineffective. It's sad to see but was quite predictable seeing that he would try to play any league rather than focusing on staying fit for his country

This is why I had always believed Mir Hamza to be a better investment post Amir's retirement. Although not as pacey as Shaheen, he is a brilliant swing- seam bowler who has grinded in domestics for years and I think all that effort should have not gone in-vein.
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I always said naseem > Shaheen. Naseem is the only player BCCI would take over thakur from pcb. Everyone else like rizzu, Imam, Babar, Shaheen would all get discarded to IPL minnows lol
 
mominsaigol said:
I always said naseem > Shaheen. Naseem is the only player BCCI would take over thakur from pcb. Everyone else like rizzu, Imam, Babar, Shaheen would all get discarded to IPL minnows lol
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Naseem competition would be against Siraj, Shami, Bumrah, Peashidh etc. Thakur is bowling allrounder. They will not take Naseem over Thakur just like how they are not picking Shami over Thakur. Siraj Shami and Bumrah would comfortably picked over Naseem.
 
SportsWarrior said:
Naseem competition would be against Siraj, Shami, Bumrah, Peashidh etc. Thakur is bowling allrounder. They will not take Naseem over Thakur just like how they are not picking Shami over Thakur. Siraj Shami and Bumrah would comfortably picked over Naseem.
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Why though? Shami and bhuvi aren't better then naseem, even siraj isn't.

And I'm saying this from an unbiased perspective.

Naseem is underrated by everyone. He achives economy and has taken a wicket or multiple wickets in every game he's played minus the India game against Asia where he wasn't even fit and still got Gill out 2x if it wasn't for chacha being the worst slip fielder on the planet.

His line and length is 100x superior to siraj and people make way more mistakes against him whereas siraj is basically a superior version to Rauf, he'll be expensive on some occasions but will pick up those 3 to 4 wicket hauls.

Naseem on the other hand has been economical and wicket taking in every innings minus one match where he was unfit and he still outperformed everyone. Media just deluded themselves with shaheen hype, he was always a bang Average middle overs bowlers and he got more wicket hauls same with Rauf because bowlers attacked them more.

Even against nz on pindi wickets, naseem was the only one who's economy was less then 5 while every bowler even Henry were getting belted for 6+.

Put naseem with bumrah and pandya and India would be beyond class lol, mainly cause you'd have no bowlers to target.
 
mominsaigol said:
Why though? Shami and bhuvi aren't better then naseem, even siraj isn't.

And I'm saying this from an unbiased perspective.

Naseem is underrated by everyone. He achives economy and has taken a wicket or multiple wickets in every game he's played minus the India game against Asia where he wasn't even fit and still got Gill out 2x if it wasn't for chacha being the worst slip fielder on the planet.

His line and length is 100x superior to siraj and people make way more mistakes against him whereas siraj is basically a superior version to Rauf, he'll be expensive on some occasions but will pick up those 3 to 4 wicket hauls.

Naseem on the other hand has been economical and wicket taking in every innings minus one match where he was unfit and he still outperformed everyone. Media just deluded themselves with shaheen hype, he was always a bang Average middle overs bowlers and he got more wicket hauls same with Rauf because bowlers attacked them more.

Even against nz on pindi wickets, naseem was the only one who's economy was less then 5 while every bowler even Henry were getting belted for 6+.

Put naseem with bumrah and pandya and India would be beyond class lol, mainly cause you'd have no bowlers to target.
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You have poor understanding of cricket if you think Shami is not better than Naseem. Very little i can say that will change your mind if you think Naseem is better than him. Shami has played world cups and has done better. he has more wickets against top sides and has a steller test match record which is better than Naseem and anyone else pakistan has produced in last two decades. No, no one will prefer Naseem over SHami

Siraj has excellent experience playing in IPL and bowling well on batting tracks. We are seeing how Pak bowlers are struggling in batting tracks. For Pakistan every bowler who is not in the team is a world beater. Nothing that other Pakistani bowlers have shown on these pitches says they will consistently bowl better than Indians who have lots of IPL experience. So India won't take him. If Naseem were an India, he would still be in domestics, just like every other bowler of his age. India generally doesn't hand out India caps as easily as Pakistan does. Kishan and Gill are the youngest batters and they still have more experience than Saud, Salman Aga, etc. Siraj has toiled in domestics for 7 to 8 years before he is bowling at the higest level
 
SportsWarrior said:
You have poor understanding of cricket if you think Shami is not better than Naseem. Very little i can say that will change your mind if you think Naseem is better than him. Shami has played world cups and has done better. he has more wickets against top sides and has a steller test match record which is better than Naseem and anyone else pakistan has produced in last two decades. No, no one will prefer Naseem over SHami

Siraj has excellent experience playing in IPL and bowling well on batting tracks. We are seeing how Pak bowlers are struggling in batting tracks. For Pakistan every bowler who is not in the team is a world beater. Nothing that other Pakistani bowlers have shown on these pitches says they will consistently bowl better than Indians who have lots of IPL experience. So India won't take him. If Naseem were an India, he would still be in domestics, just like every other bowler of his age. India generally doesn't hand out India caps as easily as Pakistan does. Kishan and Gill are the youngest batters and they still have more experience than Saud, Salman Aga, etc. Siraj has toiled in domestics for 7 to 8 years before he is bowling at the higest level
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Fair enough you have your opinions I have mine, but cool it on claiming others have a very poor understanding if they have a different viewpoint then yours.

As the saying goes " One who is arrogant is the stupid one" 👨🏻‍🦯
 
IAJ said:
Zaheer Khan was a true trundler bowling at 132 kph and Nehra around max low 140s. But both were good swing bowlers though.
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They were not express, but they were capable of bowling consistently above 140s.
 
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India has made massive strides in Fitness, Nutrition in the last 10 years especially since the growth of IPL and Kohli's promotion of a ruthless Christiano Ronald fitness culture. The average speeds of Bhumra, Shami and Siraj have gone up. You will see these bowlers routinely bowl at 87-88 and even 90 mph in all spells in test cricket.

A little bit of money, fame and marriage responsibilities is enough to make Pakistani players soft.
 
Savak said:
India has made massive strides in Fitness, Nutrition in the last 10 years especially since the growth of IPL and Kohli's promotion of a ruthless Christiano Ronald fitness culture. The average speeds of Bhumra, Shami and Siraj have gone up. You will see these bowlers routinely bowl at 87-88 and even 90 mph in all spells in test cricket.

A little bit of money, fame and marriage responsibilities is enough to make Pakistani players soft.
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Kohli holds the Indian record for maximum runs via running in a ODI innings. 100 runs out of 160 in 159 balls at Capetown.

75 singles 11 x 2s, 1 x 3. Impeccable fitness is why he is able to play long and hard.

www.deccanchronicle.com

75 singles, 11 doubles, 1 triple! Story of Virat Kohli's unique ton vs South Africa | 75 singles, 11 doubles, 1 triple! Story of Virat Kohli's unique ton vs South Africa

Kohli achieved the feat during his 160-run knock 3rd ODI match against South Africa at Newlands.
www.deccanchronicle.com www.deccanchronicle.com
 
jnaveen1980 said:
Kohli holds the Indian record for maximum runs via running in a ODI innings. 100 runs out of 160 in 159 balls at Capetown.

75 singles 11 x 2s, 1 x 3. Impeccable fitness is why he is able to play long and hard.

www.deccanchronicle.com

75 singles, 11 doubles, 1 triple! Story of Virat Kohli's unique ton vs South Africa | 75 singles, 11 doubles, 1 triple! Story of Virat Kohli's unique ton vs South Africa

Kohli achieved the feat during his 160-run knock 3rd ODI match against South Africa at Newlands.
www.deccanchronicle.com www.deccanchronicle.com
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Babar needs to take note. Babar's conversion rate has declined in the last year.
 
hoshiarpurexpress said:
Well its the same with Hassan/Shaheen. They sledge Zimbabwe players but go quiet against top teams like Australia/Ind/England they go quiet. Either sledge everyone or don't sledge at all.
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I think you don't understand the concept of seniority and respect. Good people treat people differently depending on the levels of respect they have for them. This is why you saw Haris sliding Ishan but not Kohli or VK.
 
what seniority.. they are playing at the same level. Some of Zimbabwe players are also senior to Hasan/Haris/Shaheen etc in terms of experience.

My point is, if you want to show aggression, show it against everyone consistently. Or don't pull such stunts at all.
ExpressPacer said:
I think you don't understand the concept of seniority and respect. Good people treat people differently depending on the levels of respect they have for them. This is why you saw Haris sliding Ishan but not Kohli or VK.
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Hard to believe this particular disorder than Indian bowlers suffered for so long has now passed on to Pakistani bowlers. Pakistan supporters used to taunt us Indians till some 10 years ago that Indian bowlers used to come with an early expiry date.
 
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cricviz.com

Shaheen Shah Afridi - New Ball Superstar - CricViz

Ben Jones analyses Shaheen's Powerplay excellence, and reflects on his potential role in the World Cup.
cricviz.com cricviz.com

SSA average powerplay speed in WT20 in 2021 = 137 kph

www.espncricinfo.com

Rockstar Afridi needs a new hit

His effectiveness with the new ball has reduced somewhat. Is he striving too hard for that magic ball?
www.espncricinfo.com www.espncricinfo.com

SSA average speed in Asia Cup 2023 = 135.3 kph

SSA average speed in 2023 World Cup so far = 133.1 kph


Definitely losing pace.
 
Nikhil_cric said:
cricviz.com

Shaheen Shah Afridi - New Ball Superstar - CricViz

Ben Jones analyses Shaheen's Powerplay excellence, and reflects on his potential role in the World Cup.
cricviz.com cricviz.com

SSA average powerplay speed in WT20 in 2021 = 137 kph

www.espncricinfo.com

Rockstar Afridi needs a new hit

His effectiveness with the new ball has reduced somewhat. Is he striving too hard for that magic ball?
www.espncricinfo.com www.espncricinfo.com

SSA average speed in Asia Cup 2023 = 135.3 kph

SSA average speed in 2023 World Cup so far = 133.1 kph


Definitely losing pace.
Click to expand...
Also the line is completely off in recent games. He has sprayed down the leg side way too often. Any swing with that line is useless
 
Nikhil_cric said:
cricviz.com

Shaheen Shah Afridi - New Ball Superstar - CricViz

Ben Jones analyses Shaheen's Powerplay excellence, and reflects on his potential role in the World Cup.
cricviz.com cricviz.com

SSA average powerplay speed in WT20 in 2021 = 137 kph

www.espncricinfo.com

Rockstar Afridi needs a new hit

His effectiveness with the new ball has reduced somewhat. Is he striving too hard for that magic ball?
www.espncricinfo.com www.espncricinfo.com

SSA average speed in Asia Cup 2023 = 135.3 kph

SSA average speed in 2023 World Cup so far = 133.1 kph


Definitely losing pace.
Click to expand...
Only 137 in t20? People were saying that he was 140 to 150 lol consistently. Guess not.

137 average is still good but yea dropping now 133 is just not good enough for odi or t20.

135-138 should be the average in tests and odi. T20average should be higher.

133 is simply not good enough at all. Not sure if injury or what but shaheen needs to step up.
 
ExpressPacer said:
I think you don't understand the concept of seniority and respect. Good people treat people differently depending on the levels of respect they have for them. This is why you saw Haris sliding Ishan but not Kohli or VK.
Click to expand...
Kohli should be disrespected. Need to be charged up. Instigate him. He is not invincible. He chokes a lot in pressure games too.
 
The sooner Shaheen realizing that international cricket is a lot more than just bowling that full inswinger to the right hander, the better. You cannot be one dimensional to quality batsmen
 
SportsWarrior said:
They were not express, but they were capable of bowling consistently above 140s.
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You can look up 2003 match vs Pak in world cup. You can see Nehra bowling in 140s consistently. he was hitting late 140s occasionally. Zahir also bowled in early 140s. You can also see the results of bowling at 150 by Shoaib in that match.. pace is not everything. Pace with movement is
 
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mominsaigol said:
Fair enough you have your opinions I have mine, but cool it on claiming others have a very poor understanding if they have a different viewpoint then yours.

As the saying goes " One who is arrogant is the stupid one" 👨🏻‍🦯
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lol.. i never showed any arrogance. to claim bowlers who have bowled for a decade, have got more wickets than every single bowler in the last two decades, is somehow inferior to an youngster who has lot to prove on the world stage.
 
mominsaigol said:
I always doubt the ages like ihsanullah is really 22? like the bro is really just a year older then me? How? Ik what 22 year olds look like. Its like saying rashid khan is 25 😂😂.

Shaheen shpuld be 25-27 logically. Its when people tried to convince me shahid afridi was 16 on debut when he was 21 😂😂.

Like ik their cricketers and all but oh hell naw. Only people who are likely accurate about their real age is babar, Imam, rizzu, and a few others.

Pur fast bowlers are liars except naseem. Naseem should be 20
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Age fudging is not that easy nowadays. How difficult it is to accept that some people look older than they actually are and some look younger.

Shoaib malik looks younger than his age.
Iftikhar looks older than his age.

Everyone has different genes.

I think doubting players age also comes from the jealousy and insecurity that they have achieved so much at such a young age. So as a national hobby, we should pull them down.
 
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saqib.rai said:
Age fudging is not that easy nowadays. How difficult it is to accept that some people look older than they actually are and some look younger.

Shoaib malik looks younger than his age.
Iftikhar looks older than his age.

Everyone has different genes.

I think doubting players age also comes from the jealousy and insecurity that they have achieved so much at such a young age. So as a national hobby, we should pull them down.
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Look we can't discuss this topic here anymore but I only thing I would like to say is most of these players are age fudging by 3-4 years especially the ones coming from the far flung villages. It affects the pacers more because they start losing their pace and agility as they approach 30. When a 25 year is making is debut he is actually 29. Now tell me how far can a 29 a year fast bowler go after making his debut? He would be 32 before he has settled into international cricket. Age fudging is a huge problem in Pakistani cricket and its the number 1 cause of poor performance.
 
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saqib.rai said:
Age fudging is not that easy nowadays. How difficult it is to accept that some people look older than they actually are and some look younger.

Shoaib malik looks younger than his age.
Iftikhar looks older than his age.

Everyone has different genes.

I think doubting players age also comes from the jealousy and insecurity that they have achieved so much at such a young age. So as a national hobby, we should pull them down.
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Well ik rashid khan ain't 25, that's 100% conformation
 
The level of coaching is so poor in Pakistan where you have bowling coaches like Waqar who have nothing useful or insightful to say other than keep bowling & bowl phaast. Didn't he say at one point that Shaheen needs to keep bowling or his elbow will start acting up? Better to completely run him into the ground then I guess.

Every professional team has biomechanics, diet, nutrition, maximizing their run-up/release point etc. Our players come in with full horsepower roaring to go and fizzle out just as quick. It's shocking to look at the career of Junaid Khan who looked like an incredible superstar and should be one of your main bowlers in this WC but yet, he is nowhere to be heard or seen. Doesn't even play domestic and it's hard to fathom. Amir in his comeback from 2016 to mid 2018 was great, lost pace and has been a shadow of himself since then.

There's also a lack of education and players understanding their own body. They always just think they can keep bowling and for money, they will chase rubbish T20 leagues to make money short-term but lose out on it long-term. Unfortunately, PCB doesn't have enough financial incentive to offer either to prevent players from playing these leagues and tiring themselves out.

And if it's not that, its PCB themselves ruining their own players careers with mismanagement of their injuries. The Shaheen saga made it clear, the entire PCB is a complete clown show where the doctors have zero idea what they are doing and even from up top, there's no actual care shown by PCB themselves to protect their top assets. It's shocking too considering how few top assets they have in the first place.

Even with these lack of things for PCB, at minimum you can still sit down with your bowlers and work out a cohesive plan where they can be fit and healthy for big matches, get enough rest and still make money.
 
Major said:
These guys came from poor backgrounds, never had an AC to cool themselves. As they earn money they start enjoying life as they start to get what they never had. The training becomes less, especially after marriage.

Alot of people critisize the team for eating habits, but alot of people dont know, once upon a time thesse guys never had access to such foods till their 20s.
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Exactly same with BD players. Most of them came from humble backgrounds. after gaining early fame/success making some decent amount, building proper house, buying lands, etc, then they get married and feel life is sorted - satisfied, life accomplished and secured. Then they lose focus and desire which then results in poor cricketing results on the pitch and slowly fade away, like many have.
 
Nikhil_cric said:
cricviz.com

Shaheen Shah Afridi - New Ball Superstar - CricViz

Ben Jones analyses Shaheen's Powerplay excellence, and reflects on his potential role in the World Cup.
cricviz.com cricviz.com

SSA average powerplay speed in WT20 in 2021 = 137 kph

www.espncricinfo.com

Rockstar Afridi needs a new hit

His effectiveness with the new ball has reduced somewhat. Is he striving too hard for that magic ball?
www.espncricinfo.com www.espncricinfo.com

SSA average speed in Asia Cup 2023 = 135.3 kph

SSA average speed in 2023 World Cup so far = 133.1 kph


Definitely losing pace.
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You seem to have a viewpoint first and then you pull the data to support it. Instead of the other way round. Usually, all pacers ball slower in ODIs than T20s because of the longer spell. Requirement of format is also different.
To do a proper analysis, pull ODI stats.

In any case, 2 kph drop doesn’t seem like a big drop at all for pacers.

Performance is the same in 2023 vs before. Average of 23 at same ER and SR
 

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kron said:
Only 137 in t20? People were saying that he was 140 to 150 lol consistently. Guess not.

137 average is still good but yea dropping now 133 is just not good enough for odi or t20.

135-138 should be the average in tests and odi. T20average should be higher.

133 is simply not good enough at all. Not sure if injury or what but shaheen needs to step up.
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Ignore people lol
Pak fans are panic mode.

While Padosis have been freaked out by Shaheen. A couple of ordinary games for Shaheen and they are out projecting insecurities.

With dodgy knee and finger, flue and anti biotic, the guy still played the india game and got 2 wickets.
 
kron said:
Only 137 in t20? People were saying that he was 140 to 150 lol consistently. Guess not.

137 average is still good but yea dropping now 133 is just not good enough for odi or t20.

135-138 should be the average in tests and odi. T20average should be higher.

133 is simply not good enough at all. Not sure if injury or what but shaheen needs to step up.
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140-150 he used to hit in most games albeit not consistently thought out the innings.
 
Farabi said:
You seem to have a viewpoint first and then you pull the data to support it. Instead of the other way round. Usually, all pacers ball slower in ODIs than T20s because of the longer spell. Requirement of format is also different.
To do a proper analysis, pull ODI stats.

In any case, 2 kph drop doesn’t seem like a big drop at all for pacers.

Performance is the same in 2023 vs before. Average of 23 at same ER and SR
Click to expand...
It's actually the other way around but let's not go there. A 2kph drop in average pace is a lot more than many people think. It's the difference between Mitchell Johnson in 2013/14 Ashes and Johnson in 2014/15 Australia tour of India.

It's especially an issue when a 135 kph averaging seamer drops to 133 kph and is reliant on pace. Anyway , Shaheen seems to be developing good cutters so he needs to employ them cleverly upfront and not pitch the ball full.

At his current pace, he cannot keep targeting the pads with inswing because good batsmen will pick him apart
 
Nikhil_cric said:
It's actually the other way around but let's not go there. A 2kph drop in average pace is a lot more than many people think. It's the difference between Mitchell Johnson in 2013/14 Ashes and Johnson in 2014/15 Australia tour of India.

It's especially an issue when a 135 kph averaging seamer drops to 133 kph and is reliant on pace. Anyway , Shaheen seems to be developing good cutters so he needs to employ them cleverly upfront and not pitch the ball full.

At his current pace, he cannot keep targeting the pads with inswing because good batsmen will pick him apart
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What? You’re saying fast bowlers bowl quicker in ODIs? That is not true.
I would honestly do a p-value statistical analysis but I can tell you that a drop of 2 kph, which is 1% drop.
The real reason Shaheen hasn’t done well is because he’s not getting the late swing in these conditions and he’s not controlling the new ball as well. Seems related to form and fitness, specially the finger.
 
Farabi said:
What? You’re saying fast bowlers bowl quicker in ODIs? That is not true.
I would honestly do a p-value statistical analysis but I can tell you that a drop of 2 kph, which is 1% drop.
The real reason Shaheen hasn’t done well is because he’s not getting the late swing in these conditions and he’s not controlling the new ball as well. Seems related to form and fitness, specially the finger.
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Its a technical issue with his bowling action . He won't get his pace up in this World Cup all of a sudden. You can do a p-value analysis but honestly you'll have to get access to ball speeds and Hawkeye data for that.

I'm not saying they bowl faster. You said I make assertions and then look for ways to prove it which is false. I saw the data and then came to my own conclusions.

Once he gets his action sorted , he will be able to put more force and revs on the ball which will allow greater ball speed and sharper late inswing. He cannot do either currently because he cant get his body behind the ball.
 
Farabi said:
What? You’re saying fast bowlers bowl quicker in ODIs? That is not true.
I would honestly do a p-value statistical analysis but I can tell you that a drop of 2 kph, which is 1% drop.
The real reason Shaheen hasn’t done well is because he’s not getting the late swing in these conditions and he’s not controlling the new ball as well. Seems related to form and fitness, specially the finger.
Click to expand...
Also weather. England is cooler and nicer. Australia can be hot but not as bad as india I think.

Weather plays a huge role in speeds. In India you can't be bowling 140 plus consistently in the burning heat of chennai. You will be in the hospital bed.
 
kron said:
Also weather. England is cooler and nicer. Australia can be hot but not as bad as india I think.

Weather plays a huge role in speeds. In India you can't be bowling 140 plus consistently in the burning heat of chennai. You will be in the hospital bed.
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Yup.
Ditto in SL. Not your ideal weather for fast bowling. They played a test series there where Shaheen was phenomenal and accurate like an arrow.
A Mathews, whose bring around the block, said he had never seen any fast bowler bowl as well as Shaheen did during that series in those grounds. His words not mine.
It’s after the finger issue, his wheels came off. I expect Shaheen’s radar to get better and better. Pace is a non issue here. 135 is more than enough to rattle battlers with right skills, which he has.
 
Shaheen looks like he has found his rhythm a bit and his pace is also looking good ATM. That dropped catch would have dented his confidence but he should be more focused now. Can't give any freebies.
 
Pacer is not working here for Rauf. Just pace is not the way to go. You gotta be more intelligent with your variations.
 
[Host:]

"Bolt, Shami, Starc have the same pace, swing and fitness even after 8 or 10 years of International Cricket, while our bowlers seem to be struggling, with loose pace after a little time in international cricket. Why?"



[Wasim Akram:]

"As you know, Shaheen got injured".

"Bolt, Shami and Starc get looked after properly".

"They can keep care of their bowlers where to give them a chance to play, where they must be rested, and if a player gets rested, so they make sure that he will get his pay, which keeps them motivated".

"If you remember, in his early 1.5 to 2 years, Pat Cummins used to get injured a lot, a doctor told him to take a rest for a year or so but Australian cricket paid him his contract money for 2 years and managed him, looked after him".

"and here you see Ihsanullah got injured and we don't know where exactly he is now, I have heard that he has already had 2 elbow operations and as you know the operation is the last resort".

"and again, longer cricket. This is an answer to everything. There are no short cuts".
 
T20 Cricket is to blame. Pakistan only played like 12 ODIs going into the ODI WC. In this WC every team will be playing 9 ODI's before the Semi Final. No wonder the pacers have run out of gas and couple that with the poor discipline, fitness and eating habits of our players then its no surprise. Look at India, all of their pacers are fit and bowling at 138-140 km/hr plus and they don't even cramp inspite of playing in very hot conditions.
 
Because we are trying to imitate india where the likes of bhuvaneshwar kumar, arahdeep Singh are lauded as swing greats.
 
If only there is a proper support system, SSA Naseem Rauf Hasnain WasimJr. this group should be groomed
 
Injuries, running them into the ground by never developing any bench strength so we could implement a rotation policy, and age fraud. Combination of the 3.

Those blaming it on marriage are idiots. You want them to be virgins for their entire playing career?
 
We are blessed to have bowlers who can bowl 140+. But they don't have control over their line and length. After Wasim and Waqar, have we produced any fast bowler to take 300 Test wickets?
 
FearlessRoar said:
We are blessed to have bowlers who can bowl 140+. But they don't have control over their line and length. After Wasim and Waqar, have we produced any fast bowler to take 300 Test wickets?
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300? I don't think pacers took even 200 wickets. Some one can correct me if I am wrong.

If I am correct then the last Pakistani pacers to take 200 plus wickets debuted in 80s. 30-40 year ago. I think Afridi should get it unless he takes T20 route.
 
most cricketers are participating in numerous leagues these days around the world and their bodies are wearing out rapidly.

I think most of them overburden themselves to earn money so quick but end up losing their strength even more quickly.
 
Faheem Ashraf used to average in the mid-130s and occasionally bowl around or over 140. Now it's wayward 128 KPH.

What is this?
 
BouncerGuy said:
Lack of focus, interest, practice and thinking that they are an automatic choice.
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It definitely has to be that. I also think there's also a lack of hunger to be better.

Once they've played for Pakistan, they think they've made it. That's the be all, end all of their careers.
 
ExpressPacer said:
Faheem Ashraf used to average in the mid-130s and occasionally bowl around or over 140. Now it's wayward 128 KPH.

What is this?
Click to expand...

The guy was busy with his wedding prep, he didn't even take part in the training camp. He looked unfit, he should not have been selected. Faheem's bowling has regressed for a long time.
 
Former Pakistan all-rounder Mohammad Hafeez shared his opinion about the lack of pace in Shaheen Shah Afridi's Test cricket performance during a show on a local sports channel:

"In Test cricket, there are very few bowlers worldwide who consistently maintain speeds of 140+, 145 kph because it's a longer format, and fatigue sets in as you have to field throughout the day. Normally, Shaheen was bowling around 136-137 kph in such situations, which is okay. If he could consistently bowl around 140 kph, even averaging 138-139 kph, it would be acceptable. As a bowler, regaining your rhythm is crucial. We've seen that whenever Shaheen bowls in One Day and T20 cricket, he consistently reaches speeds around 140 kph, but in Tests, his pace tends to be 4-5 kph slower. So, I think in white-ball cricket, where there are fewer overs, we perceive his pace as 140+ kph."
 
PCB/NCA should do their research on this

Search "shaheen first over vs australia in semi final" on YouTube. It is sad to see the present version of Shaheen, it is a similar story for Naseem Shah as well. Hasan Ali and Junaid Khan are other examples as well, decent pace when they started but turned into trundlers after injuries

The only exception is Wahab Riaz who maintenance his bowling speed till twilight of his career.

Is it physical condition or biomechanics or not proper rehabilitation of bowlers injury.

Mark wood and Jofra Archer had multiple injuries yet they don't seem to lose pace
 
Unfit bottom heavy bowlers not having the fitness to bowl at 100% throttle. Tbh of all the pacers Hasnain looked the most fit during this series
 
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