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Why has India never had a Muslim Prime Minister or Army Chief?

Don't get me wrong, the upper castes were subjugated ruthlessly and arguably, deservedly for their inhumane treatment of the lower castes but you're being melodramatic again. There was an easy way to avoid all of that bloodshed, it is called not having a battle against a force clearly more powerful than your own.

Baghdad, a true jewel of a city, was similarly ransacked by an invading force. The difference however, was that the Mongols did nothing for the betterment of the conquered lands and eventually converted to Islam themselves, whereas the Mughals not only benefited India greatly but lived and died there.

Babur was bad. But then Humayun, Akbar etc had less prejudiced view of our subcontinental culture naturally because of being born here and living here. If you want to enumerate the major benefits of Mughal rule, then i here they are. Don't worry these are also straight from the brainwashed hindu nationalist playbook which is our NCERT history text book.

1) Unified subcontinent as a whole after the Mauryan empire.

2)No further invasion from external force for next 200 years during their reign

3)Akbar made peace with hindu rulers, United all the small kingdoms, fewer tensions and war. He established religious tolerance among hindus and muslims.He even abolished Jizya, a tax imposed on hindus by the muslim rulers.

4)Good road system, uniform currency, tax collection. Our economy was stable and really good. Akbar is one of the most efficient administrator we ever had.

5) Persian art and culture amalgamated with the Indian ones. Monuments like Taj Mahal, Red Fort etc

6)Mughlai cuisine ,Urdu language and literature.
 
Don't get me wrong, the upper castes were subjugated ruthlessly and arguably, deservedly for their inhumane treatment of the lower castes but you're being melodramatic again. There was an easy way to avoid all of that bloodshed, it is called not having a battle against a force clearly more powerful than your own.

Baghdad, a true jewel of a city, was similarly ransacked by an invading force. The difference however, was that the Mongols did nothing for the betterment of the conquered lands and eventually converted to Islam themselves, whereas the Mughals not only benefited India greatly but lived and died there.

wow, Mughals were so generous.
Sikh gurus were executed, tortured to protect lower castes, and "deserved" that.
5th guru, guru Arjan dev ji was tortured(hot sand poured on body) by Jahangir to save dalits.
two young kids(aged 7 & 9) of tenth guru were bricked alive to protect lower caste people from them. kids aged 7 & 9 were very cruel.
why don't you write some history books, will serve humanity with some comic relief.
 
This is an interesting thread. Pakistanis can't seem to understand the Indian bafflement for their oversimplified question. And Indians can't understand why Pakistanis are asking this question in the first place.

My own view is: after 70 years of being separated, the two societies are grown so apart that they simply can't understand each other at an intrinsic level. Mahatma Gandhi was careful about ensuring establishment of basic political framework before independence from the British was formalized. In chouri choura, he suspended the Non-Cooperation Movement after 20+ policemen were violently killed. He decided that India wasn't ready for independence in 1922. On the other hand, Pak was established by someone who threatened direct and violent civil war unless his demands were met.

The results are clear and there was certain inevitability about it.

India has gone on to become a secular democratic society. We take our elections for granted. We know that once the elections are conducted, there would be smooth transfer of power irrespective of who won. We know 100% that our armed forced will never try to seize political power and will remain in the barracks come what may. We know that when we select our cricket captain, we don't look at his religion (heck, Indian cricket selection used to be influenced by many other biases like which state / region, but never religion!). When we go to school, we make friends with whoever we want to, and don't divide people by religion. While there continues to be some communal violence from time to time, Indian society at large is secular. Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs and Christians get along just fine without thinking about religion in a conscious way.

Pakistanis simply can't understand this. Their nation was born out of a violent threat. From thereon it went downhill. Army has seized power at least four times by my count. No one trusts the political process, not even the Pakistanis themselves. Sunnis and shias can't get along, leave alone any hope for the Hindus and Christians. Not being exposed to the complex political process the Indians are so used to, they ask this oversimplified question -- "how come there hasn't been a Muslim PM or Army General?" In a society that doesn't bat an eyelid before making Azhar the captain, or where Azim Premji has as much chance of succeeding in technology industry as Narayan Murthy, there is inevitability about a Muslim PM too. It will happen when someone is ready. It's just that it's not an important question at all and Indians don't even think about it as a question to ask. Pakistanis, given your upbringing over the past 70 years, will never understand it.

The rather condescending attitude may give you a momentary satisfaction but it only shows us the farcical bubble that you are portraying which is in contrast to the widespread reality of cultural apartheid be it against Dalits or Muslims or other minorities .... it is there and it's a reality. If you are saying that you are secular, yes as an individual may well be, but majority despite what you say here, are not. I was at wedding recently, and seated on our table was a Goan Christian family. They are very worried about suppression of their cultural heritage ever since bjp has targeted that state..... you will be hard pressed to find more chilled out passive people than the goans and even they are now really worried.

My question is how come there is not even single person out of nearly 200 million people capable of being PM.... even law of averages dictates there should be one. Now let's say if there is one.... what is the path to the top role? And more crucially will the majority Hindu community vote for that person. The answer at this moment is no. You can sugarcoat it which ever way you want.
 
The rather condescending attitude may give you a momentary satisfaction but it only shows us the farcical bubble that you are portraying which is in contrast to the widespread reality of cultural apartheid be it against Dalits or Muslims or other minorities .... it is there and it's a reality. If you are saying that you are secular, yes as an individual may well be, but majority despite what you say here, are not. I was at wedding recently, and seated on our table was a Goan Christian family. They are very worried about suppression of their cultural heritage ever since bjp has targeted that state..... you will be hard pressed to find more chilled out passive people than the goans and even they are now really worried.

My question is how come there is not even single person out of nearly 200 million people capable of being PM.... even law of averages dictates there should be one. Now let's say if there is one.... what is the path to the top role? And more crucially will the majority Hindu community vote for that person. The answer at this moment is no. You can sugarcoat it which ever way you want.

A dalit is the present President and a backward caste is the present PM of India.

People like you have been predicting this so called farcical bubble in India since 1947.Just look where India has progressed to since then.We have a long way to go yet but we have covered more than most expected us to.

Goans have elected BJP numerous times since past few decades.Its a very pro bjp state since a long time.BTW its very convenient that all these distressed people meet PP posters who then post about them.

Only 1 prime minister from a non congress govt has ever completed a 5yr term in India.

Only 1 non nehru-gandhi family member has ever completed a 5 yr term as a congress nominated PM.

Leaders dont come out according to law of avgs.Why muslims have not had a leader has been discussed to death in the thread.Read the posts.

Its funny how a person sitting in UK will predict who Indians will vote for.
 
India has had some very popular Presidents, Vice Presidents, Speakers of Parliament, Chief Justices of Supreme Court, who were Muslim, but none of them were there because of them being Muslim. And this is the same if one were a Christian, Parsi or Sikh as well. One would think that the best person for a job is based on his ability and merit to do the job not his religion.

If this were the case the extremist evil Hindus as some point would have stopped this from happening a long time ago as well and only appointed Hindus for all top positions. They would have probably made it a law one would think.

Heck Bollywood is ruled by muslims, chief justices in India who have more power that you can imagine have been Muslims. Heck even political parties in India have Muslim members. It's inevitable in the future if there is a person of Muslim origin capable of taking on the pm job nothing can stop that from happening in Democratic India. Another Prime example is the Indian cricket team that has muslims like zaheer, varun aaron who is Christian, harbhajan who is Sikh...Azharudin was a former Indian cricket captain is Muslim.

India has so far had many Prime Ministers, but none of them were there because of their religion, community or caste.

It's hard to fathom for some but India is a constitutional Republic and functioning Democracy, where anyone can occupy any post, and indians elect or select people to high offices for their potential or performance, merit and talent, suitability and stature, but most certainly NOT for being a Hindu,Muslim,Sikh or Christian.

One would think the person behind the paranoid mindset behind the question is the reason why some countries have chosen to elect only people of a certain religion....rather than his ability or for simply just being the best candidate for the job....
 
if India is not secular in reality, then it favors which religion?

if your answer is Islam:
please tell this to few Pakistani Britishers here, because they accuse India of being anti Muslim.

if your answer is Hinduism: then whats your problem? you have problem with what's written "on paper"? you got Hindu homeland already.

British Pakistanis don't write the political columns in Indian newspapers, neither did they force the British or American governments to ban the current Indian PM for his part in the religious riots in Gujarat. Don't try to pass this off onto us, his reputation was created in India not the UK.
 
Why is India your concern in any way? Indians can elect anyone they want.Its upto us.

It's a discussion forum, so people will use it to discuss issues although that seems to be a constant surprise to you. Yes we know Indians can elect who they want. That's how elections usually work.
 
British Pakistanis don't write the political columns in Indian newspapers, neither did they force the British or American governments to ban the current Indian PM for his part in the religious riots in Gujarat. Don't try to pass this off onto us, his reputation was created in India not the UK.

Political columns are opinions of individuals.Its part of freedom of speech of a democratic secular republic.Now regarding the credibility of the writer, most people reading those columns are quite adept of filtering what to believe what not to.

Current Indian PM never applied for a UK visa, so the question of ban doesnt arise.But what is known is that group of UK MPs invited him to UK long before he became PM.

The US visa was rejected at a time when he was facing cases in the court.Since then he has been exonerated and has gone on to address the US house of representatives to thunderous applause.

Things British Pakistanis keep forgetting.
 
And my question is out of those 200 mill people name one person who is deserving and popular enough to be the PM?
 
It's a discussion forum, so people will use it to discuss issues although that seems to be a constant surprise to you. Yes we know Indians can elect who they want. That's how elections usually work.

Discussion is saying Non Indians have the right to be bothered about who India elects as its PM.

Thats not a discussion, its a assertion of a sense of entitlement.

Discussion is what is happening regarding the OP.
 
And my question is out of those 200 mill people name one person who is deserving and popular enough to be the PM?

Maybe Indian Muslims are just collectively untrustworthy or incompetent? That is the logical conclusion one must draw when answering your question.
 
Political columns are opinions of individuals.Its part of freedom of speech of a democratic secular republic.Now regarding the credibility of the writer, most people reading those columns are quite adept of filtering what to believe what not to.

Current Indian PM never applied for a UK visa, so the question of ban doesnt arise.But what is known is that group of UK MPs invited him to UK long before he became PM.

The US visa was rejected at a time when he was facing cases in the court.Since then he has been exonerated and has gone on to address the US house of representatives to thunderous applause.

Things British Pakistanis keep forgetting.

How do you know British Pakistanis have forgotten any of those things? Did you collect data on what British Pakistanis remembered or forgot with regard to the perception of Modi in British news columns? If you did, please present your findings, otherwise keep your speculative ramblings to yourself.
 
Everytime I log into this thread, I see my dear indians defending their secular credentials. O ye Hindus, Wake up! For secularism is only going to make you weak. The enemy wants this too. Nothing wrong in having pride in your religion and following a life based on your faith. O ye who have fallen in the trap of secularism. Your ancestors died to save your religion and you are giving it away to the enemy because secularism. The soul of our ancestors are crying seeing how we are destroying our religion because we have been taught to hate it. Be hindu first. Say with Pride that you are Hindu. To hell with secularism and to hell with anything that doesn't respect our religion.
 
And my question is out of those 200 mill people name one person who is deserving and popular enough to be the PM?

Who decides who is deserving? I suppose modi deserved his pm title after carrying out a pogram in Gujarat....

There is a bias/phobia that you are no willing to see just with that statement alone. Lets take Adam Premji for instance, if he decided to join politics... would he be a 'deserving' candidate? We both know, majority of the Hindus would never vote for him to win. Let alone PM he would not even win a mayoral post in Mumbai, city he was born in.
 
Maybe Indian Muslims are just collectively untrustworthy or incompetent? That is the logical conclusion one must draw when answering your question.

Unbelievably this is what can be concluded. And nearly 100 years on, Jinnah is proven to be right once again.
 
Maybe Indian Muslims are just collectively untrustworthy or incompetent? That is the logical conclusion one must draw when answering your question.


You think the people in power are competent? Is not about competency how competent is a Mayawati, Mulayam Singh, Lalu etc compared to your average Muslim leader? Indian electorate is extremely complex where issues rise from basic "whoever provides me food I will vote for him" to "whoever helps be country grow".. in between these two extremes there are 1000's of issues which include religion, caste, background, power, nativeness etc..

To become the PM as a Muslim you got to have a very good image (at least the perception of public should be that).. and you should be popular amongst the masses especially in Hindi heartland where there are majority seats.. The most popular Muslim leader here is Azam Khan who if becomes the PM will take India back to 14th century..

I don't think majority of Indians will have any problem with a Muslim leader as long as he is honest and works for the collective betterment of everyone but question is will we ever get such a leader?
 
Unbelievably this is what can be concluded. And nearly 100 years on, Jinnah is proven to be right once again.

He was right that hindus and muslims cannot live together as they are incompatible. But Indians , in an effort to prove him wrong, took on the label of secularism..as a result only detroyed hinduism. Everyone can see they have failed, but they are blinded by the glasses of secularism and cannot see how their own religion is moth eaten due to following the practice of bending over and over just to prove secularism. Wish we had someone like Q-e-A for us.
 
Who decides who is deserving? I suppose modi deserved his pm title after carrying out a pogram in Gujarat....

There is a bias/phobia that you are no willing to see just with that statement alone. Lets take Adam Premji for instance, if he decided to join politics... would he be a 'deserving' candidate? We both know, majority of the Hindus would never vote for him to win. Let alone PM he would not even win a mayoral post in Mumbai, city he was born in.



LOL Modi won because of how he was portrayed by India pre elections as the development king of Gujrat, BJP spent the highest ever amount of money on 2014 elections the world has ever seen to portray him as the champion of development and to let each and everyone of the 1.3bill people know about the corruption of congress..

Ofcourse if hypothetically it was let's say Some xyz khan then there might be some people who would not vote for him just because of his religion and vote for some other candidate who shares the same religion but is corrupt and will lead them to a worse life than the Saif xyz khan.. That is how it is but are such people in majority or minority? We would only get to know that once there is a capable Muslim leader who can challenge for position of the PM until then we can only speculate..
 
Who decides who is deserving? I suppose modi deserved his pm title after carrying out a pogram in Gujarat....

There is a bias/phobia that you are no willing to see just with that statement alone. Lets take Adam Premji for instance, if he decided to join politics... would he be a 'deserving' candidate? We both know, majority of the Hindus would never vote for him to win. Let alone PM he would not even win a mayoral post in Mumbai, city he was born in.

In a democracy the people decide who wins.Modi has been exonerated of any wrong doing by courts.

Azim Premji may not become a PM, because that requires a totally different level of popularity.But he is a very fit candidate to be a Rajya Sabha member and a cabinet minister.

Azim Premji is a very private person and extremely down to earth.I dont expect him to be able to address rallies,interact with people and media on a hourly basis or run a election campaign.But what he is capable of is running a commerce of finance or industries portfolio as a minister.
 
How do you know British Pakistanis have forgotten any of those things? Did you collect data on what British Pakistanis remembered or forgot with regard to the perception of Modi in British news columns? If you did, please present your findings, otherwise keep your speculative ramblings to yourself.

Because British Pakistanis like you keep repeating the same thing when they have already been debunked many times.
 
Don't know whether to laugh or cry. Hindus have lost everything they had..and yet they are being made to feel guilty. Muslims ruled us. Muslims got two independent homelands on eastern and western borders. Hindus still don't have a homeland. YET it is the hindu who is being held accountable and guilty for not electing a muslim ruler for themselves. You cannot make this up. The sadder part is that my hindu brothers have fallen for this and being apologetic that this is something they will do in near future, so that our ex masters can pat us on the back.
 
Don't know whether to laugh or cry. Hindus have lost everything they had..and yet they are being made to feel guilty. Muslims ruled us. Muslims got two independent homelands on eastern and western borders. Hindus still don't have a homeland. YET it is the hindu who is being held accountable and guilty for not electing a muslim ruler for themselves. You cannot make this up. The sadder part is that my hindu brothers have fallen for this and being apologetic that this is something they will do in near future, so that our ex masters can pat us on the back.

Well BJP can right all the wrongs if it wants. NDA commands almost 2/3rd of the MPs in the Lok Sabha and rules the entire Hindi belt where the largest chunk of India's population resides. However, it will still take till 2020 for them to become a majority in the Rajya Sabha as well. Regardless, it is safe to say that this is the peak, I already sense the right wing demographic getting impatient without whose support Modi can't even think of getting close to 282 seats in 2019. The development plank is wearing thin as well to compound the situation.

The problem is that in typical BJP style, it used religion to gather votes en masse in religiously sensitive spots and is now passing the buck on most of it's promises made in 2014. No hard line Hindu group/ party can mobilize enough support to win even a state election, let alone be a major player in national politics. Even Owaisi has more of a chance to become a national player than any Hindu group. It's a fact. Hindus are just not as religiously motivated as other religions, always has been that way and always will be. For good or for bad, depends on your perspective.
 
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Well BJP can right all the wrongs if it wants. NDA commands almost 2/3rd of the MPs in the Lok Sabha and rules the entire Hindi belt where the largest chunk of India's population resides. However, it will still take till 2020 for them to become a majority in the Rajya Sabha as well. Regardless, it is safe to say that this is the peak, I already sense the right wing demographic getting impatient without whose support Modi can't even think of getting close to 282 seats in 2019. The development plank is wearing thin as well to compound the situation.

BJP has always let hindus down. I don't care about their political excuses that they have to operate within the constitutional framework. The rights of hindus is not tied to a single party.. They can't even give us back one temple to us.. Hindus are today in the sorry state because they were taught through nehruvian propaganda that no persecution ever happened to them, and they should be ashamed of their own religion. But few people are waking up..just a matter of time when it becomes a full fledged revolution for Justice for Hindus.
 
You think the people in power are competent? Is not about competency how competent is a Mayawati, Mulayam Singh, Lalu etc compared to your average Muslim leader? Indian electorate is extremely complex where issues rise from basic "whoever provides me food I will vote for him" to "whoever helps be country grow".. in between these two extremes there are 1000's of issues which include religion, caste, background, power, nativeness etc..

To become the PM as a Muslim you got to have a very good image (at least the perception of public should be that).. and you should be popular amongst the masses especially in Hindi heartland where there are majority seats.. The most popular Muslim leader here is Azam Khan who if becomes the PM will take India back to 14th century..

I don't think majority of Indians will have any problem with a Muslim leader as long as he is honest and works for the collective betterment of everyone but question is will we ever get such a leader?

There is Salman Khurshid, Ghulam Nabi Azad, Ahmed Patel who are much better than the buffoon that you have mentioned. But being in the congress party and not having any impressive record like MMS, one know they are not going to be a PM at any cost. Neither i don't find them charismatic enough to be an Indian PM tbh.
 
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BJP has always let hindus down. I don't care about their political excuses that they have to operate within the constitutional framework. The rights of hindus is not tied to a single party.. They can't even give us back one temple to us.. Hindus are today in the sorry state because they were taught through nehruvian propaganda that no persecution ever happened to them, and they should be ashamed of their own religion. But few people are waking up..just a matter of time when it becomes a full fledged revolution for Justice for Hindus.

That's fine, but you're seriously overestimating the number of Hindus who are actually proud of their Hindu identity. You'll find many many more Hindus who are prouder of their caste identity than their religion identity, and it has been thoroughly evidenced by the sheer number of state elections that have been won or lost in the name of caste. UP being the biggest example, where Mulayam utilized the Yadav-Muslim vote bank to great effect; two entities which have nothing in common as far as religion or caste goes. Even BJP over the years has had the stigma of being a Brahman-Baniya party rather than being an proper encompassing Saffrom political outfit.

No party fighting in the name of solely Hindu identity can muster enough votes to even be a credible opposition in the state, let alone a national player. If you want the Hindus' issues to be addressed, you should first hope that a majority oft them start seeing themselves as Hindus first and then by their caste or better - don't look at each other in the prism of caste altogether, which is obviously.. near impossible.
 
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British Pakistanis don't write the political columns in Indian newspapers, neither did they force the British or American governments to ban the current Indian PM for his part in the religious riots in Gujarat. Don't try to pass this off onto us, his reputation was created in India not the UK.
amazing analogy, just because modi is PM, India is not secular country.
it's Indian citizen who decide whom to make PM, even though i am one of his critics, modi is an elected pm, elected by Indians, who cares what Britishers or Americans or Pakistanis think?
maybe you are not aware of political situations in India, because modi was selected for his "gujrat development model" not because of 2002. but I know this information is meaningless to you, as you would like to stay in that bubble.

here is some more information for you:

1) Assam - Syeda Anwara Taimur (6th Dec 1980 - 30th June 1981)

2) Bihar - Abdul Gafoor (2nd July 1973 - 11th April 1975)

3) Kerala - C. H. Mohammad Koya (12th Nov 1979 - Dec 1st 1979)

4) Maharashtra - Abdul Rahman Antulay (9th June 1980 - 12th Jan 1982)

5) Pondicherry - M. Farooq (April 9th 1967 - March 6th 1968)

these are Muslim CMs of Hindu majority States. if Muslims can be CM in Hindu States, they can definitely become PM. 2024 will be start of "gold opportunity" for every Muslim in Congress, as Rahul Gandhi will fail, and priyanka Gandhi's kids will be minors by then. so if a strong Muslim leader emerges in Congress, there is a good chance.
and most importantly Indian Constitution do not have any rule to stop Muslims to become PM, unlike few countries.
 
Because British Pakistanis like you keep repeating the same thing when they have already been debunked many times.

Do you think British Pakistanis are writing the news stories on India for the national media when they have portrayed Modi as being the leader of a Hindu nationalist party? Every broadsheet in the UK has linked your PM with the riots in Gujarat, and it's a fair bet that most other respected nations have done the same prior to his election as India's PM. Are you saying that British Pakistanis are influencing the British media?
 
amazing analogy, just because modi is PM, India is not secular country.
it's Indian citizen who decide whom to make PM, even though i am one of his critics, modi is an elected pm, elected by Indians, who cares what Britishers or Americans or Pakistanis think?
maybe you are not aware of political situations in India, because modi was selected for his "gujrat development model" not because of 2002. but I know this information is meaningless to you, as you would like to stay in that bubble.

here is some more information for you:

1) Assam - Syeda Anwara Taimur (6th Dec 1980 - 30th June 1981)

2) Bihar - Abdul Gafoor (2nd July 1973 - 11th April 1975)

3) Kerala - C. H. Mohammad Koya (12th Nov 1979 - Dec 1st 1979)

4) Maharashtra - Abdul Rahman Antulay (9th June 1980 - 12th Jan 1982)

5) Pondicherry - M. Farooq (April 9th 1967 - March 6th 1968)

these are Muslim CMs of Hindu majority States. if Muslims can be CM in Hindu States, they can definitely become PM. 2024 will be start of "gold opportunity" for every Muslim in Congress, as Rahul Gandhi will fail, and priyanka Gandhi's kids will be minors by then. so if a strong Muslim leader emerges in Congress, there is a good chance.
and most importantly Indian Constitution do not have any rule to stop Muslims to become PM, unlike few countries.

Fall of Gandhis is very much required for a talented Muslim to be PM.
 
You think the people in power are competent? Is not about competency how competent is a Mayawati, Mulayam Singh, Lalu etc compared to your average Muslim leader? Indian electorate is extremely complex where issues rise from basic "whoever provides me food I will vote for him" to "whoever helps be country grow".. in between these two extremes there are 1000's of issues which include religion, caste, background, power, nativeness etc..

To become the PM as a Muslim you got to have a very good image (at least the perception of public should be that).. and you should be popular amongst the masses especially in Hindi heartland where there are majority seats.. The most popular Muslim leader here is Azam Khan who if becomes the PM will take India back to 14th century..

I don't think majority of Indians will have any problem with a Muslim leader as long as he is honest and works for the collective betterment of everyone but question is will we ever get such a leader?

Unlikely, because as you have already alluded, India's Muslims seem to be collectively incompetent and untrustworthy and thus the majority Indians would never vote for them.
 
wow, Mughals were so generous.
Sikh gurus were executed, tortured to protect lower castes, and "deserved" that.
5th guru, guru Arjan dev ji was tortured(hot sand poured on body) by Jahangir to save dalits.
two young kids(aged 7 & 9) of tenth guru were bricked alive to protect lower caste people from them. kids aged 7 & 9 were very cruel.
why don't you write some history books, will serve humanity with some comic relief.

Isolated incidents. Were all the Sikh spiritual leaders tortured and killed in this way or did these fellows do something to offend the ruling government? The Mughals were definitely not perfect, and some of the things they did were cruel but on the whole, they benefited the Indian subcontinent quite a lot.
 
Don't know whether to laugh or cry. Hindus have lost everything they had..and yet they are being made to feel guilty. Muslims ruled us. Muslims got two independent homelands on eastern and western borders. Hindus still don't have a homeland. YET it is the hindu who is being held accountable and guilty for not electing a muslim ruler for themselves. You cannot make this up. The sadder part is that my hindu brothers have fallen for this and being apologetic that this is something they will do in near future, so that our ex masters can pat us on the back.

Your country is 15% Muslim so I don't know why you find it unfair if a Muslim was ever elected as your PM.
 
Do you think British Pakistanis are writing the news stories on India for the national media when they have portrayed Modi as being the leader of a Hindu nationalist party? Every broadsheet in the UK has linked your PM with the riots in Gujarat, and it's a fair bet that most other respected nations have done the same prior to his election as India's PM. Are you saying that British Pakistanis are influencing the British media?

1.Being Hindu and being a nationalist isnt a crime anywhere in the world.Its not illegal.So dont know why you are talking about it.

2.Every book in the world talks about the heinous crimes committed by the british during their rule in India.Churchill has been held responsible for death of millions in Bengal, has that stopped the same broadsheets from calling him
a hero?

The same media railed againist BREXIT, guess what the British voted for.

The media kept railing againist Trump and kept predicting his defeat, he won.



I can give many instances from media around the world praising Modi.

So media writes what it wants to write.If there is a person, people will write about him.It doesnt make the petson guilty of any crime


Please name these respected countries.No use speculating.
 
Isolated incidents. Were all the Sikh spiritual leaders tortured and killed in this way or did these fellows do something to offend the ruling government? The Mughals were definitely not perfect, and some of the things they did were cruel but on the whole, they benefited the Indian subcontinent quite a lot.

So you unless there is systematic elimination of an entire religion its fine.Good.
 
1.Being Hindu and being a nationalist isnt a crime anywhere in the world.Its not illegal.So dont know why you are talking about it.

2.Every book in the world talks about the heinous crimes committed by the british during their rule in India.Churchill has been held responsible for death of millions in Bengal, has that stopped the same broadsheets from calling him
a hero?

The same media railed againist BREXIT, guess what the British voted for.

The media kept railing againist Trump and kept predicting his defeat, he won.



I can give many instances from media around the world praising Modi.

So media writes what it wants to write.If there is a person, people will write about him.It doesnt make the petson guilty of any crime


Please name these respected countries.No use speculating.

So first you were complaining about British Pakistanis, when you were challenged, you now switch to Churchill as India's nemesis. You even have the nerve to steal my own example of Brexit from the other thread to make a point. By all means if you want to believe there is a worldwide conspiracy to defame Modi, you are welcome to that opinion, but no need in future posts to make specific references to BRITISH PAKISTANIS. I urge you and your fellow Indian posters + [MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION] to refrain from this deflection. Unless you truly believe that British Pakistanis in fact influence world media. If that is your belief please clarify.
 
Isolated incidents. Were all the Sikh spiritual leaders tortured and killed in this way or did these fellows do something to offend the ruling government? The Mughals were definitely not perfect, and some of the things they did were cruel but on the whole, they benefited the Indian subcontinent quite a lot.

I can go on and add many many more, these are not isolated incidents, you seem quite unaware of mughal atrocities.
kids of age 7 and 9 offend ruling government.
9th Sikh guru who wanted Kashmiri pandits not to be converted forcefully also offended Aurangzeb, he along with his companions were executed.
kill religious leaders and them name it isolated incidents.
 
Your country is 15% Muslim so I don't know why you find it unfair if a Muslim was ever elected as your PM.

because he believes in 2 nation theory, he believes Hindus and Muslims cannot live together and are natural enemies, and after 1000 years of Muslim rule(by native Muslims) it's hindu's turn, and they should have a proper Hindu homeland.
sound quite similar to founding principals of certain countries. isn't it?
 
So first you were complaining about British Pakistanis, when you were challenged, you now switch to Churchill as India's nemesis. You even have the nerve to steal my own example of Brexit from the other thread to make a point. By all means if you want to believe there is a worldwide conspiracy to defame Modi, you are welcome to that opinion, but no need in future posts to make specific references to BRITISH PAKISTANIS. I urge you and your fellow Indian posters + [MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION] to refrain from this deflection. Unless you truly believe that British Pakistanis in fact influence world media. If that is your belief please clarify.

The British Media didnt call Modi a bigot nor did they say he is ineligible to hold office.The British Media hasnt questioned Indias secularism or democracy.Some British Pakistanis on PP have been doing that.Twisting media coverage to suit their narrative.




I couldnt care less about some world consipracy to defame Modi or anyone.Its a free world.But if any foreigner be it media or govt or individual tries to poke their noses in internal matters of India for eg who is elected Indian PM then they would be getting a disdainful response from the appropriate entity dealing with that.
 
Of course. The Mughals were not out to destroy Hinduism or Sikhism. They were there to rule the Hindus and Sikhs.

Mughals tried to destroy hinduism or sikhism just that most of the followers didnot give in.Some did and got converted.Many were killed.But those who stood, their descendants are the hindus and sikhs of the SC today.
 
Your country is 15% Muslim so I don't know why you find it unfair if a Muslim was ever elected as your PM.

Because subcontinental muslims have two homelands, and at any particular moment, there 2 out of 3 PMs are muslims. You want it to be 3/3? Then what was the need of partition?
 
because he believes in 2 nation theory, he believes Hindus and Muslims cannot live together and are natural enemies, and after 1000 years of Muslim rule(by native Muslims) it's hindu's turn, and they should have a proper Hindu homeland.
sound quite similar to founding principals of certain countries. isn't it?

1000 years of native muslim rule?
 
There should be all muslim PMs (or dictators) in Pakistan, Bangladesh and India. Some people's greed has no bounds.

One hindu PM, and all hell breaks loose and Hindus are shamed and ridiculed.
 
anyway, in Pakistan, it's unconstitutional to have non-muslim PM.

Obviously.

Its called the Islamic Republic of Pakistan for a reason and Pakistan was made in the name of Islam. I have no idea why you'd mention something THAT obvious in your post. Or do you have some ulterior motives??
 
There should be all muslim PMs (or dictators) in Pakistan, Bangladesh and India. Some people's greed has no bounds.

One hindu PM, and all hell breaks loose and Hindus are shamed and ridiculed.

Greed for??

And when did Hindus get shamed and ridiculed??
 
Greed for??

And when did Hindus get shamed and ridiculed??

Greed that after having 2 muslim head of state in the subcontinent (Pakistan and Bangladesh), some want the third(India) to be a muslim as well? A clean sweep of muslim head of states. Muslims 3, Hindus 0. If that is not greed what else will do you call it?
 
Greed that after having 2 muslim head of state in the subcontinent (Pakistan and Bangladesh), some want the third(India) to be a muslim as well? A clean sweep of muslim head of states. Muslims 3, Hindus 0. If that is not greed what else will do you call it?

And what privileges/advantages will that greed get for me??
 
And what privileges/advantages will that greed get for me??

You tell me. Why do some want 3-0 for muslims? And if you dont want that then please excuse, as I am talking about those greedy ones who want all 3 SC countries to be ruled by muslims despite having their own homeland.
 
Obviously.

Its called the Islamic Republic of Pakistan for a reason and Pakistan was made in the name of Islam. I have no idea why you'd mention something THAT obvious in your post. Or do you have some ulterior motives??

I wanted to point out the obvious non existing moral ground for pakistani posters on the subject.
 
Muslims have a hard time buying fancy apartments in Mumbai..you seriously expect them to land on the top of the food chain? It's going to take a while, long while.
 
amazing analogy, just because modi is PM, India is not secular country.
it's Indian citizen who decide whom to make PM, even though i am one of his critics, modi is an elected pm, elected by Indians, who cares what Britishers or Americans or Pakistanis think?
maybe you are not aware of political situations in India, because modi was selected for his "gujrat development model" not because of 2002. but I know this information is meaningless to you, as you would like to stay in that bubble.

here is some more information for you:

1) Assam - Syeda Anwara Taimur (6th Dec 1980 - 30th June 1981)

2) Bihar - Abdul Gafoor (2nd July 1973 - 11th April 1975)

3) Kerala - C. H. Mohammad Koya (12th Nov 1979 - Dec 1st 1979)

4) Maharashtra - Abdul Rahman Antulay (9th June 1980 - 12th Jan 1982)

5) Pondicherry - M. Farooq (April 9th 1967 - March 6th 1968)

these are Muslim CMs of Hindu majority States. if Muslims can be CM in Hindu States, they can definitely become PM. 2024 will be start of "gold opportunity" for every Muslim in Congress, as Rahul Gandhi will fail, and priyanka Gandhi's kids will be minors by then. so if a strong Muslim leader emerges in Congress, there is a good chance.
and most importantly Indian Constitution do not have any rule to stop Muslims to become PM, unlike few countries.

Why is there conflating going on.... the op is pretty clear about PM and army chief.

In any case, the example are from 35 years or more. Even so, interestingly the longest tenure is 1.6 years and the shortest 3 weeks! Why such a short tenure? Were they found to be incompetent and unreliable? and is it because of them that this incompetent and unreliable impression now exists?
 
Why is there conflating going on.... the op is pretty clear about PM and army chief.

In any case, the example are from 35 years or more. Even so, interestingly the longest tenure is 1.6 years and the shortest 3 weeks! Why such a short tenure? Were they found to be incompetent and unreliable? and is it because of them that this incompetent and unreliable impression now exists?

It is a shame that there were muslim CMs in the first place itself. The world is not only for muslims. Hindus are humans too, no matter how much one dehumanizes them. As Pakistani who has got his rightful homeland, you must be sympathetic towards the hindus who still dont have a hindu rashtra...This is only the ethical viewpoint to have. Instead you are questioning why hindus are not bending backward more often and electing muslim rulers more frequently?

Don't you think the two nation theory will be complete when india becomes a hindu rashtra, with only hindus eligible for PM/CM posts?
 
Why is there conflating going on.... the op is pretty clear about PM and army chief.

In any case, the example are from 35 years or more. Even so, interestingly the longest tenure is 1.6 years and the shortest 3 weeks! Why such a short tenure? Were they found to be incompetent and unreliable? and is it because of them that this incompetent and unreliable impression now exists?

you didn't read this line:
"if Muslims can be CM in Hindu States, they can definitely become PM."

once a Muslim becomes PM, people will say he didn't complete his tenure, or is not loved by Indians.
I don't think India will ever be able to satisfy some.
president. done
vice president. done
CJI. done
head of air force done

now you want Muslim PM.


in 70 year of independent Indian history, 60 years was Congress rule, and just like most subcontinent countries, we had dynasty of nehru-gandhi ruling us most of the time. only non Dynasty Congress PM we had were only there to fulfill the time until a Gandhi kid is old enough to take over. Muslim leaders might not have been as obedient to dynasty as someone like manmohan Singh.
 
Why is there conflating going on.... the op is pretty clear about PM and army chief.

In any case, the example are from 35 years or more. Even so, interestingly the longest tenure is 1.6 years and the shortest 3 weeks! Why such a short tenure? Were they found to be incompetent and unreliable? and is it because of them that this incompetent and unreliable impression now exists?

you didn't read this line:
"if Muslims can be CM in Hindu States, they can definitely become PM."

once a Muslim becomes PM, people will say he didn't complete his tenure, or is not loved by Indians.
I don't think India will ever be able to satisfy some.
president. done
vice president. done
CJI. done
head of air force done

now you want Muslim PM.


in 70 year of independent Indian history, 60 years was Congress rule, and just like most subcontinent countries, we had dynasty of nehru-gandhi ruling us most of the time. only non Dynasty Congress PM we had were only there to fulfill the time until a Gandhi kid is old enough to take over. Muslim leaders might not have been as obedient to dynasty as someone like manmohan Singh.
 
Muslims have a hard time buying fancy apartments in Mumbai..you seriously expect them to land on the top of the food chain? It's going to take a while, long while.

I cannot buy an apartment in most jain or gujarati society in Mumbai as i eat non veg.

Your point?
 
you didn't read this line:
"if Muslims can be CM in Hindu States, they can definitely become PM."

once a Muslim becomes PM, people will say he didn't complete his tenure, or is not loved by Indians.
I don't think India will ever be able to satisfy some.
president. done
vice president. done
CJI. done
head of air force done

now you want Muslim PM.

Bhai mere..why don't you realize that such people will never be satisfied till every chair in india is occupied by muslims. See through the game plan. Till that end is not achieved, the hindu will always be castigated as communal and intolerant...and hindus will keep falling in the trap and conceding ground yet again because they want to look secular before their ex masters.
 
I cannot buy an apartment in most jain or gujarati society in Mumbai as i eat non veg.

Your point?

I wasn't talking about a specific society. This is what my Indian Muslim friend has told me. My point is if Muslims are looked at differently (which they currently are in India) then it will take a while before there can be a Muslim candidate for the highest position. Isn't that common sense?
 
I wanted to point out the obvious non existing moral ground for pakistani posters on the subject.

Excuse me...............we're not the ones who claim to be a "secular" nation so I don't understand this lecture on morals. Are you saying that we don't have morals because we have set our constitution according to our religion?
 
Bhai mere..why don't you realize that such people will never be satisfied till every chair in india is occupied by muslims. See through the game plan. Till that end is not achieved, the hindu will always be castigated as communal and intolerant...and hindus will keep falling in the trap and conceding ground yet again because they want to look secular before their ex masters.

We aren't forcing anyone to be "secular". Just be original that's all :)
 
you didn't read this line:
"if Muslims can be CM in Hindu States, they can definitely become PM."

once a Muslim becomes PM, people will say he didn't complete his tenure, or is not loved by Indians.
I don't think India will ever be able to satisfy some.
president. done
vice president. done
CJI. done
head of air force done

now you want Muslim PM.


in 70 year of independent Indian history, 60 years was Congress rule, and just like most subcontinent countries, we had dynasty of nehru-gandhi ruling us most of the time. only non Dynasty Congress PM we had were only there to fulfill the time until a Gandhi kid is old enough to take over. Muslim leaders might not have been as obedient to dynasty as someone like manmohan Singh.

The point is to bash India and some how prove Indian Muslims are worse off.

Imagine this, two countries X and Y

X country is formed on basis of one uniform religion.It splits after less than 3 decades.Is facing problems of rising extremism in the society and a struggling economy.Democracy has had a tough time in the country and Army supercedes it.

Now another country from Y from which X was split.It has the largest number of minorities in the world.Numerous languages castes, Religions, practices, provinces etc.It has managed to be the 5th biggest economy and is seen among the emerging economies of the world.Extremist violence around the world isnt linked with it.Democracy and secularism is flourishing.Followers of religion X have similar or better demographic indicators in country Y than country X, despite the majority of rich,capable,educated,affluent,elite of religion X migrating to X country.

So citizens of Country X keep trying to bash country Y for some reason or the other.Its a defensive mechanism to keep justifying to oneself that X is better than Y.
 
Excuse me...............we're not the ones who claim to be a "secular" nation so I don't understand this lecture on morals. Are you saying that we don't have morals because we have set our constitution according to our religion?

So a religious republic has the moral grounds to question another country about secularism?Isnt that hypocrisy?
 
We aren't forcing anyone to be "secular". Just be original that's all :)

Agree whole heartedly. India should be a Hindu Nation (Partition 2.0 so that Indian Muslims don't have to live like second class citizens..should have been done in 1947, but that time has gone).

The questions ethical Pakistanis like you should be raising is why India calls itself secular when it should be rightfully a Hindu Rashtra. This is what I have been telling my hindu brothers all the time.
 
I wasn't talking about a specific society. This is what my Indian Muslim friend has told me. My point is if Muslims are looked at differently (which they currently are in India) then it will take a while before there can be a Muslim candidate for the highest position. Isn't that common sense?

Societies have their rules.Some have rules like no bachelor tenants.Some no non veg cooking allowed and so on.

Many non muslims wont rent or sell their houses to muslims because they fear beef will be cooked there.Many societies will also enforce such rules.


Its so convenient that PPers always have that Indian friend who is complaining.
 
Agree whole heartedly. India should be a Hindu Nation (Partition 2.0 so that Indian Muslims don't have to live like second class citizens..should have been done in 1947, but that time has gone).

The questions ethical Pakistanis like you should be raising is why India calls itself secular when it should be rightfully a Hindu Rashtra. This is what I have been telling my hindu brothers all the time.

Well apparently the "becharay Hindus" get irked when we question the degree of secularism in their country; case in point [MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION].
 
The point is to bash India and some how prove Indian Muslims are worse off.

Imagine this, two countries X and Y

X country is formed on basis of one uniform religion.It splits after less than 3 decades.Is facing problems of rising extremism in the society and a struggling economy.Democracy has had a tough time in the country and Army supercedes it.

Now another country from Y from which X was split.It has the largest number of minorities in the world.Numerous languages castes, Religions, practices, provinces etc.It has managed to be the 5th biggest economy and is seen among the emerging economies of the world.Extremist violence around the world isnt linked with it.Democracy and secularism is flourishing.Followers of religion X have similar or better demographic indicators in country Y than country X, despite the majority of rich,capable,educated,affluent,elite of religion X migrating to X country.

So citizens of Country X keep trying to bash country Y for some reason or the other.Its a defensive mechanism to keep justifying to oneself that X is better than Y.

Now I've read everything :)
 
Well apparently the "becharay Hindus" get irked when we question the degree of secularism in their country; case in point [MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION].

You ask the wrong question. You ask why India is not secular, when you should be asking why India is not a Hindu Rashtra..which is what it should be.
 
Why is there conflating going on.... the op is pretty clear about PM and army chief.

In any case, the example are from 35 years or more. Even so, interestingly the longest tenure is 1.6 years and the shortest 3 weeks! Why such a short tenure? Were they found to be incompetent and unreliable? and is it because of them that this incompetent and unreliable impression now exists?

Caste and regional favoritism exist in Indian politics, how do you expect a Muslin leader to become a PM ? Muslim politicians generally stand in the name of "for Muslims" and don't try to get into the main stream and join alliance with more minority friendly party. Like I said, we already had a Muslim President. Attention is only on Gujarat, Maharashtra and Delhi where people in these states like to think everything revolves around them, as media covers them the most. Gujarat and Maharastra is where minorities are truly divided and don't like each other. With all due to respect, people in these areas very hard to get along with. They don't represent rest of India. In fact these states are embarrassment to rest of the country.
 
Can you tell me which extremist incident outside India is linked to India? [1]

How is democracy not working in India? [2]

[1] APS Peshawar was linked with India and that's just one high profile example which obviously no Indian will accept. Even if you don't believe it then how exactly is that even an achievement? I thought it was routine for any country to have no links with any extremist incident.

[2] There's a difference between flourishing and "working".
Also I'm surprised you didn't repeat the same question about secularism :P
 
Carry on my indian brothers..keep on defending your (hollow) secularism and keep getting owned by Pakistanis. The day you stand up for your religion and demand a Hindu Rashta will be the day you will get respect..even from Pakistanis.
 
[1] APS Peshawar was linked with India and that's just one high profile example which obviously no Indian will accept. Even if you don't believe it then how exactly is that even an achievement? I thought it was routine for any country to have no links with any extremist incident.

[2] There's a difference between flourishing and "working".
Also I'm surprised you didn't repeat the same question about secularism :P

1.APS was linked to TTP in Afghanistan.Not a single Indian was named in it.No amount of whining will link India to such an attack.

You tell me, you didnot believe that no extremist violence outside India was linked to India.

2.India has a flourishing democracy and secularism.Go read what Imran Khan has to say about democracy in India.Its on another thread here.
 
Carry on my indian brothers..keep on defending your (hollow) secularism and keep getting owned by Pakistanis. The day you stand up for your religion and demand a Hindu Rashta will be the day you will get respect..even from Pakistanis.

agreed, the day india becomes Hindu rashtra and throw out minorities(until it's 99% Hindu) and make a Constitution which prevents minorities from achieving highest position, Pakistan will start respecting India.
but problem is most Indians don't care what they think
 
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1.APS was linked to TTP in Afghanistan.Not a single Indian was named in it.No amount of whining will link India to such an attack.

You tell me, you didnot believe that no extremist violence outside India was linked to India.

2.India has a flourishing democracy and secularism.Go read what Imran Khan has to say about democracy in India.Its on another thread here.

Imran Khan also believes in the "Good Taliban, Bad Taliban" non-sense. I'm his avid supporter but I'm not his blind supporter.
 
agreed, the day india becomes Hindu rashtra and throw out minorities(until it's 99% Hindu) and make a Constitution which prevents minorities from achieving highest position, Pakistan will start respecting India.[1]
but problem is most Indians don't care what they think [2]

[1] I see what you did there but we never "threw out" minorities, so get your facts straight.

[2] Which is exactly why you've written this statement :)
 
agreed, the day india becomes Hindu rashtra and throw out minorities(until it's 99% Hindu) and make a Constitution which prevents minorities from achieving highest position, Pakistan will start respecting India.
but problem is most Indians don't care what they think

Sorry, Just because a homeland was denied to my people, I am not going to support that for others..Minorities, especially muslims, should get their homeland.. no fault of theirs that they decided to stay back in india instead of the promised land. That is why Partition 2.0. Fair deal..
 
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