Why has Pakistan's bowling declined in white-ball cricket?

[mominsaigol]

I don't think they are terrible at the moment. A few bad games do not make them a bad team. Every player goes through periods of poor form. I don't believe anything catastrophic has occurred. The main issue is the fragile batting line up that has been exposed.

They got bullied black and blue in Asia Cup and world cup, the spin department is non existent and babar's insistence to defend shadab by not playing abrar isn't helping.

Their USA game was mostly lost by bowling poorly. People forget that USA were cruising with 100-1, and had 8 overs to chase 60, the match should not have gone to a Super over. They choked cause their a minnow in the same way Nepal threw the game against SA.

And amir bowled a horrible Super over. Ik amir and imad have either been on everyone's good side or bad side and theirs no inbetween but the reality is while amir may have bowled Super well against India and Canada, he was poor in the Super over.

Shaheen was also extremly subpar and rauf is always the same, Very expensive but takes wickets however in t20 him getting wickets is no big deal as batsmen attack and rauf bowls the middle overs so obviously he'll get more as batsmen are not trying to stay till the end.

The reason why all eyes are on batting is because in t20, Babar and rizwan have to be the worst t20 openers of all time followed by a horribly bad middle order which wasn't the case in 2018 and finally Babar isn't doing himself any favours when he sent chacha and Fakhar the same pair that got 2 against Zimbabwe and expected them to win a so and showed his coward mentality of ducking behind others.

 

[shaz619]

Politics, ego, poor management, selfish motives, groupings hindering opportunity on merit and horrible work environment.

If you have to pay for your own medical expenses, it is hard to blame the players.

Being forced to return without a proper rehabilitation just cuts their career in half.

Being encouraged to play with injuries and not being taken seriously when you raise fitness issues are catastrophic for a bowler.


These are just a few reasons.

Having said that, somehow Amir bowled the best spell in the WT20 against the champions, Naseem hasn’t lost it and while Shaheen has lost a few yards he remains a vital cog. They also have a potentially world class spinner. But these are all nice things to say because none of these players will have the career they should due to reasons above, unless there is serious change, but if change comes it’s usually short lived.

I think a lot depends now on what Gillespie and Kirsten do, if they fail, there will be a massive repair job for many years.

 

[giri26]

To give an honest view in here. Our bowlers stop developing once they achieve any sort of stardom. Someone needs to instil the idea in these cricketers that development is an ongoing process that never stops.

One shocking stat is that we don't have a single spinner in test cricket history with over 300 test wickets. This is an insane stat considering the level of spinners Pakistan had in past and the type of wickets Pakistan pre-dominantly plays upon inherently supports spinners. We had Abdul Qadir, Saqlain, Mushtaq, Kaneria and Ajmal yet we don't have anyone to surpass this milestone is mind-boggling.

Apart from Wasim Akram who was kind of an anomaly as he continued to develop throughout his playing careers the rest of bowlers we had just had their prime years. For some these prime years lasted more than others but zero development in their bowling post prime years. Even a great like Waqar (who had an extended prime period) did not develop post late 90s as he was ageing his pace was dropping yet in his mind he was the same fearsome fast bowler which he was not and as a result his attacking line and length that yielded wickets with pace were being smothered around by batsmen.

For me the sole reason we cannot sustain our fast bowlers is because of their incapacity to develop their game further post their prime period.

Even more shocking stat is that Pakistan does not have a single fast bowler with 200 Test wickets since Wasim, Waqar and Imran. For a country known to produce great fast bowling talent, this is much worse than spinners not taking 300 Test wickets. Despite no one getting to 300 Test wickets, at least you had few spinners getting to 200+ Test wickets like Saqlain, Yasir, Kaneria etc in the last 2 decades.

 

[RahulBose]

To be fair bro, I've been hitting the gym for a good 6 months now, and I typically eat whatever I want. I just do strength training so even though I'm not a healthy eater, I haven't gained weight, I've lost it and am very fit.

Even someone like Azam Khan, even if he's eating 3000 cals a day, he should not have that composition if he's playing cricket and the videos he posted online about his gym routine are true.

It is extremely clear that these boys are not keeping fit and just aren't working out properly and the dad reality is fans defend this nonsense.

For example I remember after Kakul camp and the injuries that occurred and everyone was rushing to claim injustice. Oh bhai, the training that they were doing is very standard level gym training that your average Joe does every day.

It is dead clear these boys only eat and don't work out. Common examples include

- Babar going to a mall with his family one day before the all important India game. Like bhai, you're a millionaire, you can go to USA with your family in off season? You should he training with net practise and gym for muscle building?

- Usman khan's viral video with the team in a pizza shop a day before the USA game.

- Azam Khan being spotted bringing burgers to the Hotel room and not net practising etc etc.

You don't need to be a virat kohli vegetarian to keep fit. Even if these guys eat unhealthy, Being a cricketer + Gym workouts should ensure that they don't get unhealthy.

Unless you are in calorie deficit, you can never lose weight. No matter the amount of training you do.

If you are consuming more calories than you burn, no amount of training cab help you.
When you train, you build muscles, the muscles help increase your metabolism. But if you continue consuming calories without being in a deficit, you would never burn fat.

 

[Kianig89]

SRT faced quality bowlers in international since the age of 16 that's why.

Jaysuria wanted to represent his team and knew he had to play attacking and innovating cricket and was the most innovative cricketer of his era, His mindset was to attack, which is why future bowlers improved such as murli, malinga etc.

Its not only SRT , every batsman in international cricket has quality bowlers like Rizwan and Babar ha faced Cummins Starc Hazlewood Rabada Bumrah etc. Also if you look at players like Shoaib Malik he faced 2Ws Akhtar at national level and at international stage Lee, McGrath , Steyn etc yet he improved zilch.

Pakistan's decline in bowling is due to players ambition being linked with T20 leagues

 

[BouncerGuy]

Leagues and money in those leagues have blinded the players. They are not passionate enough to play for their country and try hard and hard.

The only guy I have seen who is passionate and serious is Naseem Shah. This guy likes to win games for his country. All other guys are looking like a bunch of guys who do not care.

 

[jnaveen1980]

They have become 4 over bowlers like Nathan Ellis. Any effort beyond that diminishes the output significantly. Also lack of spinners to complement them

 

[mominsaigol]

Unless you are in calorie deficit, you can never lose weight. No matter the amount of training you do.

If you are consuming more calories than you burn, no amount of training cab help you.
When you train, you build muscles, the muscles help increase your metabolism. But if you continue consuming calories without being in a deficit, you would never burn fat.

But the point is, if you build muscle and are doing strength training every day then your body is burning more and more calories every day and throughout the day since your muscles are under going frequent wear and tear, so your body not only is spending excess energy to repair your body but also even more energy to build counter measures and more muscle so that you can prepare yourself for the next ordeal.

Theirs a gym owner by the name of Alex Hormini who use to eat 6000 cals a day but he's extremly well built, has 6 packs etc etc.

This is why strength training is better then cardio and is recommended over Cardio because Cardio only burns during the specific gym period.

Yes the science is to be in a calorie deficit but logically if you're doing excess strength training and burning an extra 1000 to 3000 cals a week then how is it humanly possible to exceed that?

 

[RahulBose]

But the point is, if you build muscle and are doing strength training every day then your body is burning more and more calories every day and throughout the day since your muscles are under going frequent wear and tear, so your body not only is spending excess energy to repair your body but also even more energy to build counter measures and more muscle so that you can prepare yourself for the next ordeal.

Theirs a gym owner by the name of Alex Hormini who use to eat 6000 cals a day but he's extremly well built, has 6 packs etc etc.

This is why strength training is better then cardio and is recommended over Cardio because Cardio only burns during the specific gym period.

Yes the science is to be in a calorie deficit but logically if you're doing excess strength training and burning an extra 1000 to 3000 cals a week then how is it humanly possible to exceed that?

Agree with you on the overall approach for a person who is already in a decent shape.

But for people like Azam Khan, who already have surplus fat, they need to be in calorie deficit for a long time to burn the extra fat.

 

[BouncerGuy]

This thread is not about azam khan and his fitness. This thread is about bowlers and their decline.

Stay on topic now.

 

[mominsaigol]

Agree with you on the overall approach for a person who is already in a decent shape.

But for people like Azam Khan, who already have surplus fat, they need to be in calorie deficit for a long time to burn the extra fat.

I'm aware but wouldn't strength training help massively in that?

More obese and overweight people tend to lose weight much much more quickly then people who are in shape mainly due to excess water, Salt and Fat that their body is holding.

Typically it is easier for a 150KG person to reach 100KG in a year then it is for a 90KG person to reach 80KG and just burn 10KG etc.

Azam Khan was similar btw. Last year he ended up losing around 20KG and while he was obese you could tell he was getting slimmer. But the next time we saw him he was even more obese then his original shape.

It's clear that when he was making videos of training, it was to impress his father who had dropped him from psl team and said next time he won't be played. But after he got in he gave up and stopped training at all.

Genuinely speaking, I've never heard of a single person who strength trains with a personal trainer and consistently increases the workload day by day aka increasing gym time, lifting more heavy weights and increasing it's weight per week and not get slimmer regardless of what their eating.

It just doesn't happen, the only difference is that people who follow a diet will achieve results faster but otherwise it's the same.

Only in Cardio and HIT do you need to carefully watch your diet since those exercises only burn while you're in the gym and not throughout the day as all you're doing is increasing your heart rate for that specific time period and not causing any wear and tear to your body so the body has no need to burn excess energy for you.

 

[mominsaigol]

This thread is not about azam khan and his fitness. This thread is about bowlers and their decline.

Stay on topic now.

Okay

 

[FearlessRoar]

Shaheen Shah Afridi is the only Pakistan bowler to feature in the latest Top 10 ICC Men's Bowling Rankings (Test & ODI)

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Because now we have social media stars as pacers not pure bowlers.

 

[nish_mate]

Other countries have moved ahead with their talent management, whilst Pakistans talent has dried up a bit and management has gone in reverse.

For last 10 years, there hasn't been a Pakistani bowler who has been consistently excellent. They perform well for a couple of seasons at the most, get injured due to overexposure and then return as mediocre bowlers.

Only bright light and genuinely a fearsome opponent is Naseem, but even he's been injured due to being used as a workhorse.

SSA's a shadow of what he was, Hasnain,Dhani came and went away, Rauf was only good enough for 4 overs.

Amir wasted his re entry into cricket.

Hassan Ali injured and never the same bowler again.

Abbas could have been the Mcgrath but not backed consistently.

 

[riddu]

remove all cheaters and fixers.. egoistic players ... remove fraud selectors.... team will rise on its own

 

[Mitin77]

Pakistan's bowling has faced challenges in white-ball cricket due to a mix of factors. There’s been a lack of consistent performance from key bowlers, issues with fitness and injury management, and evolving batting techniques from opponents. Additionally, the balance between pace and spin options hasn’t been optimal, affecting their effectiveness. Addressing these areas could help restore their competitive edge.

 

[AMSS]

remove all cheaters and fixers.. egoistic players ... remove fraud selectors.... team will rise on its own

Removing cheaters/chucker like Ajmal and Hafeez did not make pakistan's fortune rise.

 

[RahulBose]

remove all cheaters and fixers.. egoistic players ... remove fraud selectors.... team will rise on its own

This kind of magical thinking is the reason why Pakistan suffers.
You need incremental improvement rather than a single shot easy

 

[BouncerGuy]

Pakistan's bowling has faced challenges in white-ball cricket due to a mix of factors. There’s been a lack of consistent performance from key bowlers, issues with fitness and injury management, and evolving batting techniques from opponents. Additionally, the balance between pace and spin options hasn’t been optimal, affecting their effectiveness. Addressing these areas could help restore their competitive edge.

The thing is Pakistan bowlers are still paying 90s cricket. They have not evolved while the whole batting thing has taken a different approach, out bowlers are still living in some dream and are satisfied with some mediocre stats in comparison to other teams.

They do not wanna evolve their game and work hard.

 

[Asad T]

Discipline, ego, tactical awareness/brains, and lack of four-day cricket.

Discipline & ego: Shaheen in the nets getting into alleged fights with coaches because they point out that he's bowling no-balls. Practice makes permanent, and some of our bowlers don't seem to be practicing in a professional manner.

Match awareness & brains: We don't; seem to know how to bowl to a field. I wonder if Babar is to blame for this. So many times, we have seen bowlers pitch up the ball with mid-on / mid-off in the ring (eg Rauf during the super over against the USA)

Lack of 4 day cricket: This is important for our spinners especially who are not capable of bowing a consistent line and length. They need to bowl longer spells to sort this out

 

[RahulBose]

Pakistan has a systems problem - which means that various cogs in the wheel which should be working in tandem are broken. And there is no easy fix and definitely no magical fix.

The only solution can be - focus on domestic and continue to play the best domestic perfomers. Once that system start becoming default, you would see incremental progress in the quality of players as everyone would - this is the only platform we need to prepare for.

And mind you - initially, the output would be bad, as every new system usually is.

PS: I will blame Imran Khan for this debacle - he was the one who decided to break the existing system and pick people at will.

 

[riddu]

Removing cheaters/chucker like Ajmal and Hafeez did not make pakistan's fortune rise.

they werent chuckers ... always frauds escape ... masoom get caught ...

 

[usman.sandhu]

Shaheen Shah Afridi is the only Pakistan bowler to feature in the latest Top 10 ICC Men's Bowling Rankings (Test & ODI)

The rankings are flawed, he does not deserve to be in the top 50 bowlers (Test, ODI and T20).. egoistic power hungry toxic bowler with no match-winning performances in the past 2 years..

 

[BouncerGuy]

Because these guys know that money is easy to get if they play leagues and international cricket is just their side hobby now. The country is not the priority anymore for them. Only Naseem Shah is a guy you can say is serious.

 

[Cricket Warrior]

Only Naseem Shah is a guy you can say is serious.

let him play for few more years, he will follow the same footprints of his seniors.

 

[pratiktc]

First PCT should identify roles and give long runs to younger bowlers in T20Is instead of always trying to bowl Shaheen/Naseem/Rauf into ground across formats.

Let Wasim Jr and Zaman carry the T20I pace attack for next 8-10 games with Haris/Shaheen/Naseem being rotated in as the third quick

In spin department install Abrar as lead spinner and identify a spinning or seam bowling allrounder as the 5th bowler and give them same 8-10 match run. Meanwhile let Shadab try to rediscover his bowling action and form outside of intl setup.

 

[RizwanT20Champ]

We have discussed the batting at length but the bowling bar Shaheen seems to underperform a lot. Rauf always seems to go missing, Naseem flatters to deceive. Bowling has been Shaheen or bust for a long time now. 207 was made to look far too easy by SA and they did not even have their first choice batting line up. Are we overlooking the bowling?

 

[Bhaijaan]

It’s a bit shocking given PSL remains the #1 league in cricket world in terms of fast bowling quality.