Why has Pakistan's bowling declined in white-ball cricket?

[mominsaigol]

All attention is usually on Pakistan’s batting which is no suprise. Pakistan has always been considered an outdated batting side since 1996 and in recent times have failed to adjust to a modern era where even 400 in ODI's have become common place.

But one aspect that either gets ignored or isn't talked about much is the bowling.

Even during the prelude of the ICC T20 World Cup 2024, many Pakistani fans were noticing that Pakistan prefers to chase and bowl first because the side is no longer confident in defending totals.

What's weird is that, this wasn't the case even 2 years ago where despite pakistan showcasing an abysmal batting display, it was the bowling and outside external factors(SA losing to Nedtherlands) that got us into the finals.

So why has pakistan's bowling considerably declined in the last 2 years?

1) Shaheen Shah Afridi: At one point he was considered amongst the top 5 bowlers in the world, even frequently dismissing rohit sharma and the indian top order throughout their encounters from 2019-2022.

However his horrific wc 2023 form and overall medicore performance in wc 2024 is alarming.

2) Naseem Shah: To be fair to Naseem while hhe's improved since his injury, before the world cup he was getting tonked left and right. He still has not regained 100% of his form.

3) Haris Rauf: Just isnt consistent enough, is also a very poor odi bowler.

4) Hasan Ali: He was our best bowler in 2017, one of the key factors for winning ct 2017 but he fizzled out and can't even bowl 120kph.

5) Shadab Khan: Very very dissapointing if hes our priemere spinner when Pakistan use to have top class spinners in the 1990's all the way till 2016.

6) Mohammad Amir: Massive Massive decline from his prime 2009-2017 days.

Alot of people cite injury as an excuse, but why didnt injury effect Bumrah? Infact Bumrah seems to have become considerably better after injury.

 

[mominsaigol]

A few other factors that aren't really relevant to the OP but are relevant to the overall bowling dilemma

Newer bowlers like Abass Afridi haven't made a mark either.

 

[FearlessRoar]

Because we've stopped working on variations, our bowlers just bowl four overs randomly. They don't care which areas they need to target. They just come to the park, complete their four over quota and then return to their social media life.

 

[aboveandbeyond]

I believe constant changing to the coaching set up is doing no one any favours. It's like pass the parcel with PCB and it's set up.

With all this, clarity in performance is clearly being affected.

 

[adi_62941]

Our bowling is worst in ODI as compared to T20. The main reason is not playing enough ODI. We are playing on averagr 8-10 ODI on yearly basis

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

Short boundaries in Franchise cricket has scared the speed out of pacers.
The captains and the coaches in these Tier-2 leagues are not the smartest tools in the shed and hence causing confusion in the minds of the bowlers for short term gains in their leagues.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Lack of skill/talent. You still need to hit good areas consistently in ODI's. Not sling it in as fast as you can and hope for the best. That only works against BD/Nepal type minnows who can't play pace.

They, apart from maybe Naseem at his best, look hopeless when the ball doesn't swing/reverse

 

[Red-Indian]

All attention is usually on Pakistan’s batting which is no suprise. Pakistan has always been considered an outdated batting side since 1996 and in recent times have failed to adjust to a modern era where even 400 in ODI's have become common place.

But one aspect that either gets ignored or isn't talked about much is the bowling.

Even during the prelude of the ICC T20 World Cup 2024, many Pakistani fans were noticing that Pakistan prefers to chase and bowl first because the side is no longer confident in defending totals.

What's weird is that, this wasn't the case even 2 years ago where despite pakistan showcasing an abysmal batting display, it was the bowling and outside external factors(SA losing to Nedtherlands) that got us into the finals.

So why has pakistan's bowling considerably declined in the last 2 years?

1) Shaheen Shah Afridi: At one point he was considered amongst the top 5 bowlers in the world, even frequently dismissing rohit sharma and the indian top order throughout their encounters from 2019-2022.

However his horrific wc 2023 form and overall medicore performance in wc 2024 is alarming.

2) Naseem Shah: To be fair to Naseem while hhe's improved since his injury, before the world cup he was getting tonked left and right. He still has not regained 100% of his form.

3) Haris Rauf: Just isnt consistent enough, is also a very poor odi bowler.

4) Hasan Ali: He was our best bowler in 2017, one of the key factors for winning ct 2017 but he fizzled out and can't even bowl 120kph.

5) Shadab Khan: Very very dissapointing if hes our priemere spinner when Pakistan use to have top class spinners in the 1990's all the way till 2016.

6) Mohammad Amir: Massive Massive decline from his prime 2009-2017 days.

Alot of people cite injury as an excuse, but why didnt injury effect Bumrah? Infact Bumrah seems to have become considerably better after injury.

It's actually a pretty good question. Pakistani bowlers seem to take a lot longer after injuries to get back to their best and in some cases never do. I wonder if you need to look at who's minding Pakistan's injury recovery protocols, physiotherapy, good-to-go certifications etc. Do you need to upgrade the staff at your equivalent of the NCA?

I'm definitely no expert but from what I see, India seems to be doing a pretty good job on this. Bowlers seem to come back slower from injury than Pakistani bowlers but they're bowling at almost full tilt immediately on return.

 

[mominsaigol]

It's actually a pretty good question. Pakistani bowlers seem to take a lot longer after injuries to get back to their best and in some cases never do. I wonder if you need to look at who's minding Pakistan's injury recovery protocols, physiotherapy, good-to-go certifications etc. Do you need to upgrade the staff at your equivalent of the NCA?

I'm definitely no expert but from what I see, India seems to be doing a pretty good job on this. Bowlers seem to come back slower from injury than Pakistani bowlers but they're bowling at almost full tilt immediately on return.

Yeah I want this to be the focal point of the discussion.

Most of the responses are assuming the bowling is already crap and their issues in domestic levels,

But no one besides you pointed out that alot of these bowlers were gun but as soon as injury occurs, they never get back in form.

 

[Rana]

Maybe it hasn’t declined bro

Maybe it’s just the opposition batsmen are doing things to our bowlers that our batsmen are not doing to theirs

 

[kron]

All attention is usually on Pakistan’s batting which is no suprise. Pakistan has always been considered an outdated batting side since 1996 and in recent times have failed to adjust to a modern era where even 400 in ODI's have become common place.

But one aspect that either gets ignored or isn't talked about much is the bowling.

Even during the prelude of the ICC T20 World Cup 2024, many Pakistani fans were noticing that Pakistan prefers to chase and bowl first because the side is no longer confident in defending totals.

What's weird is that, this wasn't the case even 2 years ago where despite pakistan showcasing an abysmal batting display, it was the bowling and outside external factors(SA losing to Nedtherlands) that got us into the finals.

So why has pakistan's bowling considerably declined in the last 2 years?

1) Shaheen Shah Afridi: At one point he was considered amongst the top 5 bowlers in the world, even frequently dismissing rohit sharma and the indian top order throughout their encounters from 2019-2022.

However his horrific wc 2023 form and overall medicore performance in wc 2024 is alarming.

2) Naseem Shah: To be fair to Naseem while hhe's improved since his injury, before the world cup he was getting tonked left and right. He still has not regained 100% of his form.

3) Haris Rauf: Just isnt consistent enough, is also a very poor odi bowler.

4) Hasan Ali: He was our best bowler in 2017, one of the key factors for winning ct 2017 but he fizzled out and can't even bowl 120kph.

5) Shadab Khan: Very very dissapointing if hes our priemere spinner when Pakistan use to have top class spinners in the 1990's all the way till 2016.

6) Mohammad Amir: Massive Massive decline from his prime 2009-2017 days.

Alot of people cite injury as an excuse, but why didnt injury effect Bumrah? Infact Bumrah seems to have become considerably better after injury.

Have said this before. Many times infact

Make every young player play 1 to 2 seasons of first class cricket before playing psl.

They need to play 4 day cricket. Develop the strength, endurance and the muscle memory needed to bowl long spells.

Make it mandatory. They can start off small. Like odi would be a good step. List A cricket then ensure they get first class cricket under their belt. Once they show some potential, select for A tours. Pick them and train such bowlers to be all format bowlers if required or play to their potential in whatever format suits them best.

A good test bowler will be good in any format generally speaking.

Also strength and conditioning. So important. Never let that be neglected. Instead of doing body building or heavy weights, do callisthenics, weighted callisthenics, plyomentrics, body weight exercises.
Sport specific training to develop fast twitch fibres if you are a bowler or focusing on hip hinge and weight transfer movements related to the core for batsmen.

This applies to all teams. Not just Pakistan

You can create a battery of pace bowlers with such moves.

 

[Red-Indian]

Yeah I want this to be the focal point of the discussion.

Most of the responses are assuming the bowling is already crap and their issues in domestic levels,

But no one besides you pointed out that alot of these bowlers were gun but as soon as injury occurs, they never get back in form.

I think it's a very difficult topic to discuss for uninformed folks (like me). Who knows what goes on in there and how can you judge their competence?

 

[mominsaigol]

Have said this before. Many times infact

Make every young player play 1 to 2 seasons of first class cricket before playing psl.

They need to play 4 day cricket. Develop the strength, endurance and the muscle memory needed to bowl long spells.

Make it mandatory. They can start off small. Like odi would be a good step. List A cricket then ensure they get first class cricket under their belt. Once they show some potential, select for A tours. Pick them and train such bowlers to be all format bowlers if required or play to their potential in whatever format suits them best.

A good test bowler will be good in any format generally speaking.

Also strength and conditioning. So important. Never let that be neglected. Instead of doing body building or heavy weights, do callisthenics, weighted callisthenics, plyomentrics, body weight exercises.
Sport specific training to develop fast twitch fibres if you are a bowler or focusing on hip hinge and weight transfer movements related to the core for batsmen.

This applies to all teams. Not just Pakistan

You can create a battery of pace bowlers with such moves.

POTW for me.

Very good recommendation.

 

[kron]

Also this is common with desi people. Not just Pakistan. Most of them.
Diet issues

Yes desi food is incredibly tasty. Not going to lie
But need to curb the urge sadly

Results will follow if you follow the strict diet focused on lean meats veggies etc.

It will suck yes. But you are an athlete. So no excuses.

I mean sure the occasional binge ofcourse that's fine.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Maybe it hasn’t declined bro

Maybe it’s just the opposition batsmen are doing things to our bowlers that our batsmen are not doing to theirs

I think this is a fair assessment actually...barring Shadab who has declined dramatically.

Most of our times our bowlers are faced defending targets that are too little or our batsmen make the opposition bowlers look like that are bowling on a day 5 test pitch and ours therefore look bad in comparison.

Our bowling is by no means perfect but they would look a lot better if they had an extra 20-30 runs to play with.

 

[kron]

And you are young man. What's wrong with playing first class cricket. Bowl more. Learn more. Even if you get injured as a quick, you will recover fast compared to older more matured players.

Get one or 2 seasons under the belt ans then play psl, odi, tests etc.

Look at what 80s cricketers used to do. Or even 90s. Lot of them focused on first class cricket ans they were paid peanuts at the time.

If it's an older player then yes it can be an issue however if they do the right sort of training for strength and conditioning plus fitness in general, anything is possible.

 

[mominsaigol]

Also this is common with desi people. Not just Pakistan. Most of them.
Diet issues

Yes desi food is incredibly tasty. Not going to lie
But need to curb the urge sadly

Results will follow if you follow the strict diet focused on lean meats veggies etc.

It will suck yes. But you are an athlete. So no excuses.

I mean sure the occasional binge ofcourse that's fine.

To be fair bro, I've been hitting the gym for a good 6 months now, and I typically eat whatever I want. I just do strength training so even though I'm not a healthy eater, I haven't gained weight, I've lost it and am very fit.

Even someone like Azam Khan, even if he's eating 3000 cals a day, he should not have that composition if he's playing cricket and the videos he posted online about his gym routine are true.

It is extremely clear that these boys are not keeping fit and just aren't working out properly and the dad reality is fans defend this nonsense.

For example I remember after Kakul camp and the injuries that occurred and everyone was rushing to claim injustice. Oh bhai, the training that they were doing is very standard level gym training that your average Joe does every day.

It is dead clear these boys only eat and don't work out. Common examples include

- Babar going to a mall with his family one day before the all important India game. Like bhai, you're a millionaire, you can go to USA with your family in off season? You should he training with net practise and gym for muscle building?

- Usman khan's viral video with the team in a pizza shop a day before the USA game.

- Azam Khan being spotted bringing burgers to the Hotel room and not net practising etc etc.

You don't need to be a virat kohli vegetarian to keep fit. Even if these guys eat unhealthy, Being a cricketer + Gym workouts should ensure that they don't get unhealthy.

 

[mominsaigol]

Maybe it hasn’t declined bro

Maybe it’s just the opposition batsmen are doing things to our bowlers that our batsmen are not doing to theirs

It had declined.

Out batting in t20 is crap and in odi it's outdated. The whole odi mantra of play put your 30 overs and then chase 180 of the final 20 like a t20 game was never going to work for obvious reasons in odi. It's why the team kept scoring 250-280 whereas everyone else was spanking pakistan black and blue.

However the bowling has 100% declined. Bumrah showed in the world cup why great bowling can win you matches even after a klaseen masterclass.

Shaheen use to consistently get rohit sharma out with that killer inswing as well as many other top quality batsmen except for kohli and warner who can neutralise it with their forward feet movement that I haven't seen many do.

Hasan ali and Amir's bowling is a key metric for why Pakistan won CT from the bowling perspective.

The fact that hasan ali went from once being top ranked in icc rankings( whether it's flawed or not is irrelevant as you have to be competent if you're on their atleast) to not even being front runner in the squad and barely bowling at 110KPH paints the picture

 

[kron]

To be fair bro, I've been hitting the gym for a good 6 months now, and I typically eat whatever I want. I just do strength training so even though I'm not a healthy eater, I haven't gained weight, I've lost it and am very fit.

Even someone like Azam Khan, even if he's eating 3000 cals a day, he should not have that composition if he's playing cricket and the videos he posted online about his gym routine are true.

It is extremely clear that these boys are not keeping fit and just aren't working out properly and the dad reality is fans defend this nonsense.

For example I remember after Kakul camp and the injuries that occurred and everyone was rushing to claim injustice. Oh bhai, the training that they were doing is very standard level gym training that your average Joe does every day.

It is dead clear these boys only eat and don't work out. Common examples include

- Babar going to a mall with his family one day before the all important India game. Like bhai, you're a millionaire, you can go to USA with your family in off season? You should he training with net practise and gym for muscle building?

- Usman khan's viral video with the team in a pizza shop a day before the USA game.

- Azam Khan being spotted bringing burgers to the Hotel room and not net practising etc etc.

You don't need to be a virat kohli vegetarian to keep fit. Even if these guys eat unhealthy, Being a cricketer + Gym workouts should ensure that they don't get unhealthy.

Definitely no to being vegetarian. Dont care what evidence people find. They can say mayank is vegetarian and bowls 150 plus or kohli is vegan. I don't care. As a fast bowler in my opinion, you should consume meat. When I say meat, I mean lean meat. Not Fried stuff. Cause if it's Fried then you might as well be vegetarian.

I dont know what these guys like Azam khan are doing tbh.

They are not taking it seriously. What is the fitness coach doing exactly?

Yea babar doing shopping instead of training lol wth.

I did see hasan ali doing some heavy weight lifting for no reason at all.

It will make him slower. For absolute strength sure he can do it, but callisthenics and sport specific training or weighted callisthenics will be so much more useful.

And weight training needs to be done in off season. During season it should be about maintenance training. Not overload with heavy weights.

 

[RyanRyan10]

Maybe it hasn’t declined bro

Maybe it’s just the opposition batsmen are doing things to our bowlers that our batsmen are not doing to theirs

Good point. The Pakistan bowling attack guided them to the finals of the 2022 T20 World Cup and the semifinals of the 2021 T20 World Cup. Even in this year's T20 World Cup, their bowling was good. However, some fans defended their King's run-a-ball 40 odd against the USA.

 

[CerebralPatriot]

Captaincy

Under a competent captain we could easily see even our bench warmers i.e: Mir Hamza, Dahani, Mohammad Ali etc performing to a high standard and winning us games against quality opposition.

Unfortunately we are stuck with an incompetent leader and as such our bowlers have zero direction, zero plans and zero guidance.

 

[mominsaigol]

Captaincy

Under a competent captain we could easily see even our bench warmers i.e: Mir Hamza, Dahani, Mohammad Ali etc performing to a high standard and winning us games against quality opposition.

Unfortunately we are stuck with an incompetent leader and as such our bowlers have zero direction, zero plans and zero guidance.

That's true. Sarfi would go up to all his bowlers and guide them 24/7, A key ingredient missing in Babar's captaincy as all he says is Shabash Shabash

 

[mominsaigol]

Good point. The Pakistan bowling attack guided them to the finals of the 2022 T20 World Cup and the semifinals of the 2021 T20 World Cup. Even in this year's T20 World Cup, their bowling was good. However, some fans defended their King's run-a-ball 40 odd against the USA.

Their bowling was good this year because they either played against minnows or they played in NY which has to be the most bowling friendly pitch on the planet.

Imagine Waseem akram bowling here or Shane Warne lol

 

[Extra_Cover]

To give an honest view in here. Our bowlers stop developing once they achieve any sort of stardom. Someone needs to instil the idea in these cricketers that development is an ongoing process that never stops.

One shocking stat is that we don't have a single spinner in test cricket history with over 300 test wickets. This is an insane stat considering the level of spinners Pakistan had in past and the type of wickets Pakistan pre-dominantly plays upon inherently supports spinners. We had Abdul Qadir, Saqlain, Mushtaq, Kaneria and Ajmal yet we don't have anyone to surpass this milestone is mind-boggling.

Apart from Wasim Akram who was kind of an anomaly as he continued to develop throughout his playing careers the rest of bowlers we had just had their prime years. For some these prime years lasted more than others but zero development in their bowling post prime years. Even a great like Waqar (who had an extended prime period) did not develop post late 90s as he was ageing his pace was dropping yet in his mind he was the same fearsome fast bowler which he was not and as a result his attacking line and length that yielded wickets with pace were being smothered around by batsmen.

For me the sole reason we cannot sustain our fast bowlers is because of their incapacity to develop their game further post their prime period.

 

[Hellion]

Because much tougher to tamper ball and chucking rules much tighter.

15 years back, Umar Gul used to achieve big reverse swing even T20 cricket with 16 over ball.

Ajmal would bend elbow to bowl magic delivery with speed 100 km/h

Now you need proper bowling and PAK don't have enough talent with proper accurate bowling - both pace and spin.

 

[mominsaigol]

Because much tougher to tamper ball and chucking rules much tighter.

15 years back, Umar Gul used to achieve big reverse swing even T20 cricket with 16 over ball.

Ajmal would bend elbow to bowl magic delivery with speed 100 km/h

Now you need proper bowling and PAK don't have enough talent with proper accurate bowling - both pace and spin.

Shaheen was bowling gun in 2019-2021. No need for ball tampering lol.

However he now looks like a club bowler

 

[Hellion]

Shaheen was bowling gun in 2019-2021. No need for ball tampering lol.

However he now looks like a club bowler

That was only new ball. Even at best in 2021, he was smashed by Matthew Wade at death because length is poor when ball stops swinging.

 

[mominsaigol]

That was only new ball. Even at best in 2021, he was smashed by Matthew Wade at death because length is poor when ball stops swinging.

Point is he sucks with the new ball now as well.

 

[Mohraheem]

Defensive mindset! Pcb needs to keep Pakistani players away from Azhar ali and Misbah up haq

 

[Local.Dada]

It’s not about white ball, you need to bowl a lot of overs like in red ball on unhelpful surfaces where you learn how to set up batsmen, learn how to exploit flaws in technique, learn something new etc.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Simple that can't bowl a tight line or don't bother to target weak areas of batsmen. They are just too obsessed with variations.

 

[mominsaigol]

Defensive mindset! Pcb needs to keep Pakistani players away from Azhar ali and Misbah up haq

Tbf to Misbah, he was an excellent onfield captain when it came to defending low totals.

He managed to defend a subpar Score againat an ATG SA team featuring ABD, Had dunpleassi, QDK, Hasim amla, JP duminy, Miller etc. And his options were the likes of wahab, Ehsan adil, Rahat Ali etc.

Misbah is a horrible whiteball captain but one of his strengths was utilising limited resources when it came to defending low totals.

 

[harshjoshi87]

As a padosi watching these guys, I feel they lack the jazba to perform for their country.

Except for Naseem Shah, others are bowling just for the sake of it.

Most bowlers want to play franchise cricket, probably save themselves going full tilt to avoid getting injured.

 

[Arzy8]

Lack of respect for first class cricket, fitness and poor instructions from the top (particularly the captain).

 

[sweep_shot]

Pakistan didn't develop good bench strength. So, once main pacers get injured or lose forms, they face issues.

 

[zacattakk]

Lack of a quality spinner is a big factor
Lack of a genuine quality allrounder has also hurt our teams balance

 

[LordJames]

Lack of 4-day cricket! You cannot learn to bowl by bowling 4 overs in T20, the art of how to setup Bastmen, vary your length and think can only come from bowling longer spells and being exposed to different conditions.

Our bowlers are brainless hacks and there are so many basic errors which shouldn't be down to your Bowling Coach and if you have longer spells and FC Cirkcet to rely on, you can actually think

But they are just brainless hacks who have been found out at Internation level by Coaching Teams and data analysts and they have to evolve their bowling and cannot happen without playing FC Cricket.

All other reasons are secondary in my opinion

 

[Kianig89]

Our bowling has declined mainly because spinners want to be darters only and pacers want to bowl phasst only. The major for this problem is lack of red ball cricket at top level which builds temperament and skill in a player

 

[Savak]

Too much focus on T-20 Cricket, not enough first class cricket or respect for the 4 day game, ODI cricket.

Indians only allow their players to play IPL and compensate them well for exclusitivity but otherwise require them to only play Domestic Cricket in India or at the most County Cricket in England but don't allow them to play T-20 leagues world wide.

Pakistan needs to devise the same policy for their bowlers but also look to increase their compensation, compensate them for missing out on T-20 leagues in exchange for playing domestic cricket and focus exclusively on playing for Pakistan.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Lack of 4-day cricket! You cannot learn to bowl by bowling 4 overs in T20, the art of how to setup Bastmen, vary your length and think can only come from bowling longer spells and being exposed to different conditions.

Our bowlers are brainless hacks and there are so many basic errors which shouldn't be down to your Bowling Coach and if you have longer spells and FC Cirkcet to rely on, you can actually think

But they are just brainless hacks who have been found out at Internation level by Coaching Teams and data analysts and they have to evolve their bowling and cannot happen without playing FC Cricket.

All other reasons are secondary in my opinion

Not many bowlers utilize slower balls, change of pace, wide Yorkers, use of crease, cutters, slow bouncers, quick adaptations as a result of batsman triggers etc in first class cricket.

Our players aren't going to develop these skills playing 4 day QEA in the heat. It's better they go abroad and play the 100 under innovative coaches and other players who are trying to shape their skillset.

 

[Cricket Warrior]

too much league cricket and lack of interest in maintaining a certain level of fitness letting them down.

 

[Deewana Mastana]

Pakistan's bowling has been on a steady decline in all formats for the past 2 years.

Bowlers aren't putting in the required effort, concentrating to play T20 instead of FC or 50 over cricket.

The fitness and stamina required just isn't there by the players and it's going to require a herculean effort by the likes of Kirsten and Gillespie to get them from the players.

 

[ads101]

Bowlers tend to get worked out these days. Particularly in LOI, where batsmen will constantly change their strategies and unsettle them. It’s quite rare for a bowler to remain amongst the top in LOI for a long time, though there are exceptions. People say fitness but contrary to the rest of the team, our fast bowlers have actually remained rather fit, I’m not sure that’s the main issue. Most teams have the advantage of scorecard pressure too unlike us, knowing they have the batsman to chase down totals, which also helps the bowlers. And of course more competent fielders.

LOI is a batsman’s game. Things have changed since 2009. The batsmen are the main force of the team, and the bowlers are the icing on the cake. You can see that especially with England who have conceded large totals, and no one really makes a fuss as they have the batsmen to chase it down. You don’t see the reverse anymore where a top side mainly wins through bowling.

When we get 4 or 5 strong, consistent batsmen things will change. Pretty much every top team has this. Even our best batsmen in our teams are flawed, and they are put under more pressure/isolated by the lack of quality batsmen around them.

 

[TabishNator]

Bowlers tend to get worked out these days. Particularly in LOI, where batsmen will constantly change their strategies and unsettle them. It’s quite rare for a bowler to remain amongst the top in LOI for a long time, though there are exceptions. People say fitness but contrary to the rest of the team, our fast bowlers have actually remained rather fit, I’m not sure that’s the main issue. Most teams have the advantage of scorecard pressure too unlike us, knowing they have the batsman to chase down totals, which also helps the bowlers. And of course more competent fielders.

LOI is a batsman’s game. Things have changed since 2009. The batsmen are the main force of the team, and the bowlers are the icing on the cake. You can see that especially with England who have conceded large totals, and no one really makes a fuss as they have the batsmen to chase it down. You don’t see the reverse anymore where a top side mainly wins through bowling.

When we get 4 or 5 strong, consistent batsmen things will change. Pretty much every top team has this. Even our best batsmen in our teams are flawed, and they are put under more pressure/isolated by the lack of quality batsmen around them.

You can't "work out" a good pace bowler who bowls at a decent speed and gets some lateral movement.

Issue with our bowlers is definitely regression, whether in skill or fitness. Go back and watch 2017 Hasan Ali bowl 140kph in-dippers that were almost unplayable and compare him to the trundler who can't bowl above 125 kph now.

Same thing happened with Shaheen who hasn't been the same after his knee injury. Sill not as bad as Hasan Ali though.

 

[Mariner1981]

I think of following reasons
- improper diet and fitness
- poor standard of coaches in the first class structure, where they don’t learn anything
- Cricket has become a professional sport , once the novelty factor wears off and opposition figures you out, they don’t learn new skills to improve.
- More interested in leagues rather than red ball cricket, so they don’t develop any skills.
- Because of tape ball cricket culture fast bowling in Pakisthan means only one thing speed.
- Poor injury management and support system.

Some of the points may have been discussed in above posts, so excuse me if I have repeated stuff.
I am an Indian, I really hate it when India loses to Pakisthan, but I hope Pakisthan are back to their best so matches can be fun again.

 

[chinaman00]

Pakistan bowling has declined, in a major way, both in white ball and red ball cricket. Not just white ball.

 

[usman.sandhu]

The title of thread is incorrect... Pakistan bowling is a disaster in all formats - T20s, ODIs and Tests

Pathetic bunch of incompetent players...

 

[Mariner1981]

Not many bowlers utilize slower balls, change of pace, wide Yorkers, use of crease, cutters, slow bouncers, quick adaptations as a result of batsman triggers etc in first class cricket.

Our players aren't going to develop these skills playing 4 day QEA in the heat. It's better they go abroad and play the 100 under innovative coaches and other players who are trying to shape their skillset.

But they will learn to pitch 6 balls of an over on same place by playing longer format. You need to basic skills first then you can add additional variations.
Otherwise you will become faulkner or udana type bowler with only variations but no stock ball.

 

[Mariner1981]

Bumrah , Cummins , Rabada have great first class stats . You have to have a strong base first. Just my personal opinion you are welcome to differ

 

[BouncerGuy]

These bowlers are very weak. No stamina. No fitness. they get injured quite often. Cannot face any hardships. Weak bodies. lack of passion. They are playing more and more cricket which is unnecessary but money has taken over their brain and blinded them.

 

[kron]

These bowlers are very weak. No stamina. No fitness. they get injured quite often. Cannot face any hardships. Weak bodies. lack of passion. They are playing more and more cricket which is unnecessary but money has taken over their brain and blinded them.

Not weak. They are strong but poor stamina yes. Lack of passion. 100%.

Nobody wants to play first class cricket.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Not weak. They are strong but poor stamina yes. Lack of passion. 100%.

Nobody wants to play first class cricket.

They are weak if they are getting injured after bowling 1 long spell in a red ball format. Mentally weak as well.

 

[kron]

They are weak if they are getting injured after bowling 1 long spell in a red ball format. Mentally weak as well.

That's due to lack of fitness/stamina. Exhaustion.

Physically rauf shaheen are all strong.

I have met rauf in person. He is a strong lad.just no brains when he bowls lol.

 

[Rana]

let’s give it a practice scenario…

How can you improve as a bowling unit when in practice or in your domestic set ups you are only bowling to batters who as a majority (above 95%) are playing an outdated style of cricket?

You become accustomed to think you are bowling well/OK when not being challenged the way the SENA and Indian batters put bowlers to the sword.

Give Pakistani batters the FLATTEST wickets in the world against their own bowlers in domestic cricket/PSL or T20 cup etc..they still will not push themselves to bat the way someone like Travis Head, Finn Allen, Guptil, Warner, McGurk, Klaasen, DeQock, Pooran etc would.

They are all content with the bare minimum. The bare minimum is celebrated in Pakistan cricket.

 

[kron]

let’s give it a practice scenario…

How can you improve as a bowling unit when in practice or in your domestic set ups you are only bowling to batters who as a majority (above 95%) are playing an outdated style of cricket?

You become accustomed to think you are bowling well/OK when not being challenged the way the SENA and Indian batters put bowlers to the sword.

Give Pakistani batters the FLATTEST wickets in the world against their own bowlers in domestic cricket/PSL or T20 cup etc..they still will not push themselves to bat the way someone like Travis Head, Finn Allen, Guptil, Warner, McGurk, Klaasen, DeQock, Pooran etc would.

They are all content with the bare minimum. The bare minimum is celebrated in Pakistan cricket.

Also don't forget boundary size. In psl and domestics. Both are brought in

 

[Rana]

Also don't forget boundary size. In psl and domestics. Both are brought in

Yet they still don’t want to push themselves!

I felt embarrassed when Shahid Afridi gave a minimum 130 sr in PSL for batters to be considered for selection…just so a couple of questionable players can somehow be justified the next time they announce a T20 squad.

On tracks where your ‘star’ players are achieving a sr of 130-140…the World elite T20 players will target 180-210! That’s the difference in quality of who the bowlers are accustomed to bowling at!

 

[Flat_Track_Bully]

We never really fully recovered after Asif and Amir got banned.

 

[Local.Dada]

Yet they still don’t want to push themselves!

I felt embarrassed when Shahid Afridi gave a minimum 130 sr in PSL for batters to be considered for selection…just so a couple of questionable players can somehow be justified the next time they announce a T20 squad.

On tracks where your ‘star’ players are achieving a sr of 130-140…the World elite T20 players will target 180-210! That’s the difference in quality of who the bowlers are accustomed to bowling at!

Pakistan problem is not a 100-120 sr batsmen or a 200+ sr batsmen, their problem is to find a batsmen with an ability to play at both 100 sr or 200 sr depending on the situation. Thats my observation.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I think our pace attack is pretty good. Nothing special, but it is good. The spin attack could be much better with the addition of Abrar. In general I think our bowlers would perform much better under a better captain.

 

[Rana]

We never really fully recovered after Asif and Amir got banned.

Pakistan bowling was ok until 2016 ish. They were very impressive during the 2015 World Cup when white ball batting was really exploding. They kind of lost the plot around 2018-19

 

[Rana]

Pakistan problem is not a 100-120 sr batsmen or a 200+ sr batsmen, their problem is to find a batsmen with an ability to play at both 100 sr or 200 sr depending on the situation. Thats my observation.

Your observation is quite far off most of the times if I’m honest.

 

[Unbiased-Fan]

I don't think there is problem with Pakistan's pace bowling unit. The main problem with Pakistan is that they lack a world class spinner.

India have Kuldeep, Bishnoi, Chahal, Sundar and Axar.
Srilanka have Hasaranga and Theekshana.
Afghanistan have Rashid, Mujeeb, Noor and Nabi.
Bangladesh have Rishad, Sakib, Taijul and Mehedy.
Even Nepal has Lammichane.

What does PPakistan have??
Shadab, Nawaz,?????

 

[zarak]

We lack bowling IQ and discipline and have an inability to read pitches. We make novice mistakes like bowl legside half volleys or half trackers.

Shaheen will keep hammering full pitch because he thinks he is a swing king.
Haris will call fine leg up and ball one short on the hips
Shadab will bowl two half trackers and a full toss

Naseem is the only bowler who has some accuracy and intelligence.

 

[mominsaigol]

let’s give it a practice scenario…

How can you improve as a bowling unit when in practice or in your domestic set ups you are only bowling to batters who as a majority (above 95%) are playing an outdated style of cricket?

You become accustomed to think you are bowling well/OK when not being challenged the way the SENA and Indian batters put bowlers to the sword.

Give Pakistani batters the FLATTEST wickets in the world against their own bowlers in domestic cricket/PSL or T20 cup etc..they still will not push themselves to bat the way someone like Travis Head, Finn Allen, Guptil, Warner, McGurk, Klaasen, DeQock, Pooran etc would.

They are all content with the bare minimum. The bare minimum is celebrated in Pakistan cricket.

That's because the culture of selection is to look at averages and not potential.

If someone like Haris sohail, sajd shakeel or fakhar is averaging low but are striking it big and have shown glimpses of greatness the focus is never on how to get those glimpses out into thr open in every game.

The focus is either on averages or scorecards so 90% of the setup has no motivation to attack and only soft score.

And even if they follow the mantra of averages and soft scoring, they are still in danger of getting dropped due to a higher up not liking them, like babar, rizwan, wahab riaz disliking Muhammad haris and all that drama.

 

[Local.Dada]

That's because the culture of selection is to look at averages and not potential.

If someone like Haris sohail, sajd shakeel or fakhar is averaging low but are striking it big and have shown glimpses of greatness the focus is never on how to get those glimpses out into thr open in every game.

The focus is either on averages or scorecards so 90% of the setup has no motivation to attack and only soft score.

And even if they follow the mantra of averages and soft scoring, they are still in danger of getting dropped due to a higher up not liking them, like babar, rizwan, wahab riaz disliking Muhammad haris and all that drama.

I have to disagree. Usually Pakistan picks bowlers on pace, reputation and potential.

There is 0 reason why Haris gets continued chances except for his raw pace.

The fascination with Amir who is a fine talent and somewhat proven performer despite the career gap is also for the same reason. Unless the gulf in talent between Amir and some domestic performer is extremely massive or there is no alternatives, there is again 0 reasons to almost pander to him.

A guy like Musa got test debut because he is young and bowls fast.

Shaheen and Naseem performed well but they were also rushed into the senior team. To put in context Gill, Shaw, Parag, Mavi, Abhishek etc from the same batch from India had to grind in domestics for 2 yrs and perform to be in the mix. Jaiswal from the next batch had to work his way up too. No one even remembers Arshdeep played U-19 worldcup.

 

[mominsaigol]

I have to disagree. Usually Pakistan picks bowlers on pace, reputation and potential.

There is 0 reason why Haris gets continued chances except for his raw pace.

The fascination with Amir who is a fine talent and somewhat proven performer despite the career gap is also for the same reason. Unless the gulf in talent between Amir and some domestic performer is extremely massive or there is no alternatives, there is again 0 reasons to almost pander to him.

A guy like Musa got test debut because he is young and bowls fast.

Shaheen and Naseem performed well but they were also rushed into the senior team. To put in context Gill, Shaw, Parag, Mavi, Abhishek etc from the same batch from India had to grind in domestics for 2 yrs and perform to be in the mix. Jaiswal from the next batch had to work his way up too. No one even remembers Arshdeep played U-19 worldcup.

I was talking about Muhammad haris, not haris rauf.

The focal point of what @Rana was saying was that 90% of the batters in domestic do not play attacking cricket even if provided the world's flattest pitches and this is because the selection criteria values averages over potential. The idea of forwarding someone like rizwan over fakhar because rizwan is more consistent is something that would never apply in Australia or England or India.

No one in their right mind would look at Kl Rahul averaging 50 and think he should replace rohit sharma lol.

Cricket is a batsmen vs bowlers games, the better the batters, the better the bowlers will get because the bowlers will have to adjust and improve to keep up.

If the batters don't attack you in domestic, then bowlers will never learn to adjust and their bowling careers are over once they meet someone like Travis head or Butler in international.

If you want my perspective, I agree with Rana but I don't think it's the only factor on why the bowling has declined because some bowlers like shaheen were very very good before his 2022 wc t20 final injury. But his point is still valid.

 

[mominsaigol]

Pakistan problem is not a 100-120 sr batsmen or a 200+ sr batsmen, their problem is to find a batsmen with an ability to play at both 100 sr or 200 sr depending on the situation. Thats my observation.

This applies to odi and not t20.

In t20 very rarely will you see such a situation like pakistan vs india 2022 wc where kohli had to play in such a manner.

But it rarely happens. In odi you need to play according to the situation. In test you need to formulate the ultimate strategies game by game

But in t20 you go bang bang that's it.

 

[Local.Dada]

This applies to odi and not t20.

In t20 very rarely will you see such a situation like pakistan vs india 2022 wc where kohli had to play in such a manner.

But it rarely happens. In odi you need to play according to the situation. In test you need to formulate the ultimate strategies game by game

But in t20 you go bang bang that's it.

As an Indian fan in the NYC game, I was concerned when Rizwan was playing not any bang bang player. I rate Fakhar very highly but in a T20 slam bang scenario where you have to attack from ball 1 he looks like a tailender many times and you feel he will be out any moment. I am not saying fill the team with tuk tuks but Rizwan and to a smaller extent Babar are extremely critical for Pakistan X1. Without them Pak would have been bowled out for less than 80 on that NY pitch. I can bet on that.

 

[Local.Dada]

The point I am making is from numbers 5-8 you can have one dimensional players who can play only one way in T20 but your 1-4 have to be proper batsmen with technique + ability to hit or innovate even in T20. Is it easier for a hack to learn technique at the highest level or for a proper bat to improve power hitting/360 game, you guys be the judge: that’s the point I am trying to make.

I have had enough fun at expense of guys like Azam Khan etc but I am appalled to see that this is what is accounted for as “modern day kirkut”.

 

[mominsaigol]

As an Indian fan in the NYC game, I was concerned when Rizwan was playing not any bang bang player. I rate Fakhar very highly but in a T20 slam bang scenario where you have to attack from ball 1 he looks like a tailender many times and you feel he will be out any moment. I am not saying fill the team with tuk tuks but Rizwan and to a smaller extent Babar are extremely critical for Pakistan X1. Without them Pak would have been bowled out for less than 80 on that NY pitch. I can bet on that.

Fakhar Zaman lack of form has n0thing to do with him not being the right player.

Fakhar zaman in terms of pure talent and potential is superior to any pakistan's white ball batsmen besides saeed Anwar. Inzi, YK, Misbah, Babar, Rizwan, Aamer sohail, or anyone else isn't even close to him.

His problem is that he's beyond inconsistent, he's more inconsistent then afridi but when he's on song it's game over for the opposition unless you pull a QDK an orchestrate a run out.

The fault lies in PCB amd Misbah being useless and prejudice as usual. Rather then ensuring an inconsistent batsmen becomes more consistent, they instead publicly hunilate him by telling him he is not good enough, Shove him in a position that's alien to him and remove his confidence even further all so Rizwan who's Misbah's SNGPL love child can succeed.

And granted rizwan is more consistent then Fakhar but the reality is, just like KL rahul at his peak will never surpass rohit sharma at his peak, Rizwan at his peak won't even come in boot licking distance to fakhar at his peak.

I guarantee you, India in ct final had their hearts in their mouth during that no ball as well as when falhar was hitting sixes against India during this wc game.

I highly highly doubt they'd be worried if the no ball happened to rizwan or When rizzu was playing in the match. Lmao at rizwan scoring a 114 against bumrah in the final.

 

[Local.Dada]

Fakhar Zaman lack of form has n0thing to do with him not being the right player.

Fakhar zaman in terms of pure talent and potential is superior to any pakistan's white ball batsmen besides saeed Anwar. Inzi, YK, Misbah, Babar, Rizwan, Aamer sohail, or anyone else isn't even close to him.

His problem is that he's beyond inconsistent, he's more inconsistent then afridi but when he's on song it's game over for the opposition unless you pull a QDK an orchestrate a run out.

The fault lies in PCB amd Misbah being useless and prejudice as usual. Rather then ensuring an inconsistent batsmen becomes more consistent, they instead publicly hunilate him by telling him he is not good enough, Shove him in a position that's alien to him and remove his confidence even further all so Rizwan who's Misbah's SNGPL love child can succeed.

And granted rizwan is more consistent then Fakhar but the reality is, just like KL rahul at his peak will never surpass rohit sharma at his peak, Rizwan at his peak won't even come in boot licking distance to fakhar at his peak.

I guarantee you, India in ct final had their hearts in their mouth during that no ball as well as when falhar was hitting sixes against India during this wc game.

I highly highly doubt they'd be worried if the no ball happened to rizwan or When rizzu was playing in the match. Lmao at rizwan scoring a 114 against bumrah in the final.

It’s not Fakhar vs Rizwan. I agreed many times, Fakhar is the best white ball bat in Pak. Both Fakhar and Rizwan have different roles. A set Fakhar will take game away against odds but a set Rizwan will 9/10 times finish the game with a calm temperament. One moment of madness against Bumrah can be overlooked

 

[Local.Dada]

@momingsaigol bhai, Rahul cannot replace Rohit obviously but are you telling me Rahul cannot walk into most top sides as an all format player and to the fact he is a decent keeper? We are lucky to have other options like Pant, Samson, Kishen or other middle order bats like SKY, Iyer etc so he looks like a fringe player.

 

[mominsaigol]

@momingsaigol bhai, Rahul cannot replace Rohit obviously but are you telling me Rahul cannot walk into most top sides as an all format player and to the fact he is a decent keeper? We are lucky to have other options like Pant, Samson, Kishen or other middle order bats like SKY, Iyer etc so he looks like a fringe player.

I never said that. No one cares about other sides.

Rizwan would easily walk into the uganada team lol.

This is a flawed logic

 

[mominsaigol]

It’s not Fakhar vs Rizwan. I agreed many times, Fakhar is the best white ball bat in Pak. Both Fakhar and Rizwan have different roles. A set Fakhar will take game away against odds but a set Rizwan will 9/10 times finish the game with a calm temperament. One moment of madness against Bumrah can be overlooked

With the exception of the sri lanka game in the wc, and the India gane in 2021

Rizwan hasnt finished anything. He has more records of bottling games then finishing them.

He bottled sri lanka asia cup final 2x in 2022 and 2023, after the sri lanka game, he proceeded to bottle every other game in the tournament. I won't blame him for Australia game as the target was atrociously high, and I'm also willing to bypass the game against India.

Afghanistan and SA collapse were triggered because of him. Since 90% of the time either he or saud would be batting, or he and chacha and he would give his wicket away forcing someone like shadab or nawaz who were walking wickets to come on.

This game against India in the world cup, he bottled it again. He's the senior batsmen, it's his job to take the side through. That shot was beyond irresponsible.

 

[LordJames]

Lack of 4-day cricket! You cannot learn to bowl by bowling 4 overs in T20, the art of how to setup Bastmen, vary your length and think can only come from bowling longer spells and being exposed to different conditions.

Our bowlers are brainless hacks and there are so many basic errors which shouldn't be down to your Bowling Coach and if you have longer spells and FC Cirkcet to rely on, you can actually think

But they are just brainless hacks who have been found out at Internation level by Coaching Teams and data analysts and they have to evolve their bowling and cannot happen without playing FC Cricket.

All other reasons are secondary in my opinion

Forgot to add...

Before you can bowl variations, you need control and be able to pitch the ball in the same area and you need fitness to be able to bowl.

All of the above comes from FC cricket, no other solution exists. Expose even Hasnain to 2 Full seasons of good competitive County Cricket and see improvements for yourself

 

[RyanRyan10]

Their bowling was good this year because they either played against minnows or they played in NY which has to be the most bowling friendly pitch on the planet.

Imagine Waseem akram bowling here or Shane Warne lol

The point I'm making is that Pakistan's bowling is their stronger attribute.

The bowlers in question were never as exceptional as they were made out to be. They were good, but not exceptional. However, some posters, who are now missing, had begun claiming these bowlers were the finest after they delivered a handful of impressive performances and followed it up with some minnow bashing.

 

[mominsaigol]

The point I'm making is that Pakistan's bowling is their stronger attribute.

The bowlers in question were never as exceptional as they were made out to be. They were good, but not exceptional. However, some posters, who are now missing, had begun claiming these bowlers were the finest after they delivered a handful of impressive performances and followed it up with some minnow bashing.

Yes and no,

They were generally bowling world class during this time period.

2021 and 2022 was solely carried by bowling for the most part.

Having a team like England struggle tooth and nail and require another stokes master class is no easy feat.

The biggest issue was that the bowling was crap under pressure. Kohli's innings may have been an atg innings but their was no rhyme or reason to bowl that poor to him. They bowled tight lines to pandya but to kohli they were bowling pies.

Similarly they did the same to Mattew wade, ik hasan ali dropped a catch but theirs no reason for shaheen to bowl half trackers to wade and get tonked for 3 sixes.

The bowling had massively massively declined plain and simple. Were they overrated prior? Yes 100%, but they were not a poor bowling side(Excluding Shadab, Nawaz and Usma mir aka the spin deoartment was trash). Rn they are poor in every metric.

 

[Kianig89]

Another thesis being floated lack of quality bowlers is due to lack of quality batsmen, if that is the case then why the hell SRT became a legend of the game knowing bar Srinath there was not one notable pacer in Indian domestic

Jayasuriya, Aravinda which Dennis Lillee or Donald was bowling to them in SL domestics , bar Vaas SL pacers were never world beaters.

In a nutshell, Babar Azam and Muhammad Rizwan are responsible for decline in our bowling astonishing

 

[mominsaigol]

Another thesis being floated lack of quality bowlers is due to lack of quality batsmen, if that is the case then why the hell SRT became a legend of the game knowing bar Srinath there was not one notable pacer in Indian domestic

Jayasuriya, Aravinda which Dennis Lillee or Donald was bowling to them in SL domestics , bar Vaas SL pacers were never world beaters.

In a nutshell, Babar Azam and Muhammad Rizwan are responsible for decline in our bowling astonishing

SRT faced quality bowlers in international since the age of 16 that's why.

Jaysuria wanted to represent his team and knew he had to play attacking and innovating cricket and was the most innovative cricketer of his era, His mindset was to attack, which is why future bowlers improved such as murli, malinga etc.

 

[RyanRyan10]

Yes and no,

They were generally bowling world class during this time period.

2021 and 2022 was solely carried by bowling for the most part.

Having a team like England struggle tooth and nail and require another stokes master class is no easy feat.

The biggest issue was that the bowling was crap under pressure. Kohli's innings may have been an atg innings but their was no rhyme or reason to bowl that poor to him. They bowled tight lines to pandya but to kohli they were bowling pies.

Similarly they did the same to Mattew wade, ik hasan ali dropped a catch but theirs no reason for shaheen to bowl half trackers to wade and get tonked for 3 sixes.

The bowling had massively massively declined plain and simple. Were they overrated prior? Yes 100%, but they were not a poor bowling side(Excluding Shadab, Nawaz and Usma mir aka the spin deoartment was trash). Rn they are poor in every metric.

I don't think they are terrible at the moment. A few bad games do not make them a bad team. Every player goes through periods of poor form. I don't believe anything catastrophic has occurred. The main issue is the fragile batting line up that has been exposed.