Why is a seaming wicket more palatable than a turning one?

[hoshiarpurexpress]

The usual murmurs are out again.
Why is a seaming wicket more palatable then a turning one ? Both require unique skills to survive.

 

[NishanKonar]

The issue here is green seaming pitch on Day 1 is difficult for team batting 1st but becomes good for batting on Day 2 & 3 and then starts to deteriorate on Day 4 & 5 making it difficult to bat 4th. So it evens out for both sides.IN a way such pitches are more balanced over 5 days

But a spinning pitch keeps getting worse - the team that bats 2nd is always at a disadvantage. So the toss becomes extremely critical

 

[Hyperion66]

Because SENA teams are more comfortable on seaming tracks and they still by and large control the narrative.

 

[RajBan]

This is what it is. Spinning tracks are fine if the bounce is not too inconsistent.

There is a saying which translates into something like this - If one does not know how to dance then it's a faulty floor.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The usual murmurs are out again.
Why is a seaming wicket more palatable then a turning one ? Both require unique skills to survive.

Who is complaining? I predicted before the series began that India would prepare rank turners to suit their strengths, and although there were lots of protests from Indians, it didn't take long for it to happen once India went 1-0.

But again, I should reiterate, there is absolutely nothing wrong in this, most nations prepare wickets which will give the home team an advantage.

 

[Slog]

A seaming wicket gets less dangerous as time goes on. Rank turners only get worse

 

[Ashmal]

Rank turners are a lottery and only get worse as game progresses.

While a seaming/green wicket supports pacers on 1st day and then becomes flat on 2nd & 3rd days and then even the spinners can come into the picture on final day.

Wickets like Lords, the Oval are best imo as there's something in the pitch for everyone.

 

[dildilpak]

A seaming wicket gets less dangerous as time goes on. Rank turners only get worse

Nothing dangerous about the pitch yesterday. Balls were turning, but the bounce was not low & batsmen were not getting hit. I would actually say variable bounce wickets are the worst of the lot, not turning tracks like these.

 

[CanadianG00se]

The issue here is green seaming pitch on Day 1 is difficult for team batting 1st but becomes good for batting on Day 2 & 3 and then starts to deteriorate on Day 4 & 5 making it difficult to bat 4th. So it evens out for both sides.IN a way such pitches are more balanced over 5 days

But a spinning pitch keeps getting worse - the team that bats 2nd is always at a disadvantage. So the toss becomes extremely critical

How does that makes it fair for team losing a toss? You’re contradicting yourself with it.
Team A wins toss and bowl out Team B cheaply and pile up runs on next two days, on a relatively easy batting conditions. Team B again bats on now what it seems like turning track.
Please explain me how this so called sporting track is fair for team losing a toss? You’re delusional if you think green pitch is sporting and turning isn’t it. Sporting pitch is a myth

 

[CanadianG00se]

Rank turners are a lottery and only get worse as game progresses.

While a seaming/green wicket supports pacers on 1st day and then becomes flat on 2nd & 3rd days and then even the spinners can come into the picture on final day.

Wickets like Lords, the Oval are best imo as there's something in the pitch for everyone.

So basically team winning toss gets ton of advantage, get to bowl on seaming conditions and then gets to bat on easy conditions. How is it fair?
Australian pitches are rather fair IMO, as it doesn’t changes it nature for first three days which gives both team equal chance to take lead after first innings. Green top and rank turners are two face of same coin.

 

[UzmanBeast]

It is a pathetic argument made by SENA nations that preparing raging turners is "unsportsmanlike".

In the subcontinent, our youth and our players aren't exposed to luscious green tracks where the ball swings and seams so nicely. They are more exposed to flatter wickets that break and spin, and their batting styles are engineered for those pitches. You can't expect an English player to feel at home on Indian tracks just like how you can't expect an Indian player to feel at home on English tracks.

This argument by SENA ex-players that square turners are an example of poor sporting is just absurd. Pakistan vs New Zealand test series earlier this year had a track where the wicket was greener than the outfield. There was no statement by our players that the pitch was poorly made and such, but the minute the sides get flipped, SENA teams make these comments that such behavior provides no contest between bat and ball.

Michael Vaughan and Mark Waugh were making some comments on Twitter about this pitch being poor. Well chaps, it is what it is. The argument that "SENA conditions are supportive to all players" is used to cover up for their own players' cheap performances at home on certain occasions.

Any home team will make pitches to support its players, that's how the game works. England does it, South Africa does it, Australia does it, and so does New Zealand and every other team in the world. So what difference does it make that the track is spinning or seaming, just accept it and move on. Learn from your mistakes, stop hitting the ball with hard hands, and realize that not everything will be handed to you on a silver plate.

West Indies in Bangladesh, on spinning conditions, hammered the home team quite convincingly. They adapted to the pitches, and they figured out the methodical approach to playing on those wickets. England must do the same.

The beauty of test cricket is being able to overcome difficulties caused by the pitch, and apply yourself in those conditions.

 

[Ashmal]

So basically team winning toss gets ton of advantage, get to bowl on seaming conditions and then gets to bat on easy conditions. How is it fair?
Australian pitches are rather fair IMO, as it doesn’t changes it nature for first three days which gives both team equal chance to take lead after first innings. Green top and rank turners are two face of same coin.

There's some advantage obviously in winning the toss, but a seaming wicket keeps everyone involved rather than a turner where quicks are mostly spectators.

Also, if you can survive the 1st session on seaming wickets, conditions generally improve so it's not that you have no chance after losing toss.
And even when the pitch becomes flat there's still some bounce and carry which keeps the bowlers in the game.

But on a turner the pitch only gets worse and the team batting in 4th innings has almost next to no chance.

 

[Buffet]

It is a pathetic argument made by SENA nations that preparing raging turners is "unsportsmanlike".

In the subcontinent, our youth and our players aren't exposed to luscious green tracks where the ball swings and seams so nicely. They are more exposed to flatter wickets that break and spin, and their batting styles are engineered for those pitches. You can't expect an English player to feel at home on Indian tracks just like how you can't expect an Indian player to feel at home on English tracks.

This argument by SENA ex-players that square turners are an example of poor sporting is just absurd. Pakistan vs New Zealand test series earlier this year had a track where the wicket was greener than the outfield. There was no statement by our players that the pitch was poorly made and such, but the minute the sides get flipped, SENA teams make these comments that such behavior provides no contest between bat and ball.

Michael Vaughan and Mark Waugh were making some comments on Twitter about this pitch being poor. Well chaps, it is what it is. The argument that "SENA conditions are supportive to all players" is used to cover up for their own players' cheap performances at home on certain occasions.

Any home team will make pitches to support its players, that's how the game works. England does it, South Africa does it, Australia does it, and so does New Zealand and every other team in the world. So what difference does it make that the track is spinning or seaming, just accept it and move on. Learn from your mistakes, stop hitting the ball with hard hands, and realize that not everything will be handed to you on a silver plate.

West Indies in Bangladesh, on spinning conditions, hammered the home team quite convincingly. They adapted to the pitches, and they figured out the methodical approach to playing on those wickets. England must do the same.

The beauty of test cricket is being able to overcome difficulties caused by the pitch, and apply yourself in those conditions.

The only problem with pitch should be when it has uneven bounce from day 1. Batsmen can get injured and those are not safe. Otherwise, rank turners are not different than green mambas. Many matches in NZ and SA get done in 3 days.

Anyway, it's good that different conditions exist and we can watch players fighting in different conditions.

 

[Buffet]

I personally don't prefer rank turner or green mamba. The game often becomes a lottery based on the toss.

But no issue is pitch is rank turner or green mamba.


This was not a rank turner though. Rank turners are different.

 

[hitthestump]

So basically team winning toss gets ton of advantage, get to bowl on seaming conditions and then gets to bat on easy conditions. How is it fair?
Australian pitches are rather fair IMO, as it doesn’t changes it nature for first three days which gives both team equal chance to take lead after first innings. Green top and rank turners are two face of same coin.

Nope, because bowling first puts you at a natural disadvantage in test matches.

You have more outs too, because if you roll a team over in the first 2 sessions on a greentop then they can do the same to you before playing their 2nd innings in easier conditions.

 

[jnaveen1980]

I am okay with any track other than super pattas where teams score 600/700 runs

 

[jnaveen1980]

I personally don't prefer rank turner or green mamba. The game often becomes a lottery based on the toss.

But no issue is pitch is rank turner or green mamba.


This was not a rank turner though. Rank turners are different.

Rank turners are fine. Atleast it is predictable. But there are pitches where even bowler won't know what will happen. You could say 90s India's pitches where Kumble would eat batsmen alive belong to that category. I remember guys like Gooch, Gatting, Robin Smith looking like tailenders against Kumble. Only Graeme Hicks looked somewhat assured.

 

[CanadianG00se]

Nope, because bowling first puts you at a natural disadvantage in test matches.

You have more outs too, because if you roll a team over in the first 2 sessions on a greentop then they can do the same to you before playing their 2nd innings in easier conditions.

Same argument goes for rank turners as if you survive hard ball, then scoring gets easy. Plus green tops are useless for spinners as it doesn’t even bring them to play until day 5. I’m open to every type of pitch. Indian team don’t cry over green top, they just play on whatever conditions it may be. It’s always SENA who cries.

 

[Hyperion66]

It is a pathetic argument made by SENA nations that preparing raging turners is "unsportsmanlike".

In the subcontinent, our youth and our players aren't exposed to luscious green tracks where the ball swings and seams so nicely. They are more exposed to flatter wickets that break and spin, and their batting styles are engineered for those pitches. You can't expect an English player to feel at home on Indian tracks just like how you can't expect an Indian player to feel at home on English tracks.

This argument by SENA ex-players that square turners are an example of poor sporting is just absurd. Pakistan vs New Zealand test series earlier this year had a track where the wicket was greener than the outfield. There was no statement by our players that the pitch was poorly made and such, but the minute the sides get flipped, SENA teams make these comments that such behavior provides no contest between bat and ball.

Michael Vaughan and Mark Waugh were making some comments on Twitter about this pitch being poor. Well chaps, it is what it is. The argument that "SENA conditions are supportive to all players" is used to cover up for their own players' cheap performances at home on certain occasions.

Any home team will make pitches to support its players, that's how the game works. England does it, South Africa does it, Australia does it, and so does New Zealand and every other team in the world. So what difference does it make that the track is spinning or seaming, just accept it and move on. Learn from your mistakes, stop hitting the ball with hard hands, and realize that not everything will be handed to you on a silver plate.

West Indies in Bangladesh, on spinning conditions, hammered the home team quite convincingly. They adapted to the pitches, and they figured out the methodical approach to playing on those wickets. England must do the same.

The beauty of test cricket is being able to overcome difficulties caused by the pitch, and apply yourself in those conditions.

Top post from a top class poster.

 

[UzmanBeast]

The only problem with pitch should be when it has uneven bounce from day 1. Batsmen can get injured and those are not safe. Otherwise, rank turners are not different than green mambas. Many matches in NZ and SA get done in 3 days.

Anyway, it's good that different conditions exist and we can watch players fighting in different conditions.

I can understand the uneven bounce part, it puts players at risk.

Every other criticism of spin-tracks is absurd though.

I agree with your point about different conditions, I don't want to watch fast-bowlers and batsmen dominate the game all the time, spin bowling is entertaining and challenging as well.

Of course, the English ex-cricketers will try to come up with any excuse to overshadow their losses in the subcontinent.

 

[UzmanBeast]

Top post from a top class poster.

Thanks.

It will be interesting to see what excuses England make after being humiliated by India in this series.

 

[sam_ahm]

I don't like rank turners, they are far worse than seaming tracks as they keep getting worse.

However, this pitch was not as bad as people are making it out to be, India have scored close to 600 runs on this pitch, Ashwin and Sharma have scored 100s, Ashwin in the 3rd innings... It is turning but there is not much variable bounce or not too many unplayable deliveries, it is just slow turn, ENG didn't apply themselves well here, and they lost it in their mind.

 

[leg-side-flick]

Rank Turners are poor for cricket,

The matches don't last 5 days;
Fast Bowlers become useless;
More importantly Watching dirt come off every ball makes poor TV viewing


In my opinion, India didn't need to make this rank Turner, a wicket offering decent spin was enough to beat England.

 

[Bilal7]

Fast bowlers are definitely more popular and fast bowling is more fun to watch than spinners and spin bowling, respectively. Spin bowling is also easier.

As far as I'm aware, cricket started off as a sport that was dominated by fast bowlers, with batsmen having their moments. Spinners were always relegated to being the boring, containing option, who came into the match only when the pitch broke down.

This is also why true cricket fans do not enjoy matches that are played on flat roads. The natural balance between bat and ball is ruined and it takes the game away from its essence. Cricket is meant to be a game between batsmen and bowlers, spinners and sloggers are not supposed to feature so prominently.

Obviously speaking solely about the original format of the game.

 

[azimiqbal]

If the pitch was that bad how did Ashwin and sharma make 100’s , stop moaning get on with it

 

[Extra_Cover]

To end all debates there is a simple solution. Toss is not contested and visiting team gets to choose either to bowl or bat.

If this practice comes to play you would immediately start seeing supporting wickets immediately.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Because SENA teams are more comfortable on seaming tracks and they still by and large control the narrative.

Pretty much this.

We Asians dont understand our unconscious bias at times.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

The issue here is green seaming pitch on Day 1 is difficult for team batting 1st but becomes good for batting on Day 2 & 3 and then starts to deteriorate on Day 4 & 5 making it difficult to bat 4th. So it evens out for both sides.IN a way such pitches are more balanced over 5 days

But a spinning pitch keeps getting worse - the team that bats 2nd is always at a disadvantage. So the toss becomes extremely critical

I can see where you are coming from but heres my take:

As long as bounce is consistent and shot making is allowed, it's all fair game.

The westerners fed us with this logic of how a pitch should behave and we fell for it hook, line and sinker.

Not blaming them but blaming us for our lack of questioning the narrative.

In fact, im seeing more and more westerners being supportive of such pitches recently.

Thats what makes test cricket magical.

Dhoni often got villified for stating the truth about turners.

How is a turner more unfair that a green pitch that turns brown in day 2/3?

Or a dead track that starts to turn on day 2/3?

It isnt.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

I personally don't prefer rank turner or green mamba. The game often becomes a lottery based on the toss.

But no issue is pitch is rank turner or green mamba.


This was not a rank turner though. Rank turners are different.

This was a rank turner with consistent bounce imho.

Chennai and mumbai produce the best turners in the world.

Players from this part of the world play bounce well.

There is turn but runs can be piled up too.

There is value for shots.

Its the slow and low rank turners which are hard to score runs on.

 

[Stewie]

Short answer, it’s conducive for all. If it seams but the ball is coming into the bat, batsmen can play shots and score runs. Also it’s a myth spinners don’t get anything out of seaming tracks. If it seams, it spins, Shane Warne always says and it’s true. So a “seaming” track is considered a sporting wicket because its got something for everyone.

A spinning track may not be conducive for batting or fast bowling. Generally spinning tracks are ones that are uneven with cracks so uneven bounce and cracks make overall stroke play much more difficult.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

It is a pathetic argument made by SENA nations that preparing raging turners is "unsportsmanlike".

In the subcontinent, our youth and our players aren't exposed to luscious green tracks where the ball swings and seams so nicely. They are more exposed to flatter wickets that break and spin, and their batting styles are engineered for those pitches. You can't expect an English player to feel at home on Indian tracks just like how you can't expect an Indian player to feel at home on English tracks.

This argument by SENA ex-players that square turners are an example of poor sporting is just absurd. Pakistan vs New Zealand test series earlier this year had a track where the wicket was greener than the outfield. There was no statement by our players that the pitch was poorly made and such, but the minute the sides get flipped, SENA teams make these comments that such behavior provides no contest between bat and ball.

Michael Vaughan and Mark Waugh were making some comments on Twitter about this pitch being poor. Well chaps, it is what it is. The argument that "SENA conditions are supportive to all players" is used to cover up for their own players' cheap performances at home on certain occasions.

Any home team will make pitches to support its players, that's how the game works. England does it, South Africa does it, Australia does it, and so does New Zealand and every other team in the world. So what difference does it make that the track is spinning or seaming, just accept it and move on. Learn from your mistakes, stop hitting the ball with hard hands, and realize that not everything will be handed to you on a silver plate.

West Indies in Bangladesh, on spinning conditions, hammered the home team quite convincingly. They adapted to the pitches, and they figured out the methodical approach to playing on those wickets. England must do the same.

The beauty of test cricket is being able to overcome difficulties caused by the pitch, and apply yourself in those conditions.

Pretty much this.

We Asians are judged by how well we play in their conditions but shouldn't the reverse be true too?

When we dish out flat tracks that turn later, the narrative shifts to home track bullies score on "flat" tracks and fail overseas.

Back in 90s and 2000s...this was a very popular narrative.

Heck its true even now.

I don't know how many posters here are old enough to remember but back in the day, runs in Asia used to get heavily discounted.

Heck i have seen our own fab 5 accused of scoring mountain runs on flat home tracks, with the argument being that innings 1 and 2 were too easy for them in these conditions.

Its just the narrative.

But glad to see people waking up from it.

If all Asian pitches were rank turners, not only would it be boring but it will hurt our development.

But if every pitch is dead flat that turns later on... Whats the fun in it... And moreover, you will end up with modern day bats who cant play spin to save their lives.

The best example is the Indian team itself.

 

[Stewie]

By the way spin friendly tracks are also very very different by nature. There are so many types. A lot of tracks in India in the 90s, and 2000s, were made for kumble. He was not a huge turner of the ball but still got wickets, mostly because of the uneven bounce. Now they might be different, I haven’t too many tests being played in India.

 

[Chrish]

Turning wicket breaks apart so it isn’t easy on the eye in comparison to seaming wickets.

 

[MP2011]

Because SENA teams are more comfortable on seaming tracks and they still by and large control the narrative.

This. Hypocrisy of some is simply unbelievable. Some even say that spinners are not supposed to be even the major part of test cricket. Lol, which cricket manual is this written on?

Just because you enjoy fast bowling more, spinners are an inferior species as compared to pacers? Lol, hypocrisy couldn't be more astounding!

 

[UzmanBeast]

Pretty much this.

We Asians are judged by how well we play in their conditions but shouldn't the reverse be true too?

When we dish out flat tracks that turn later, the narrative shifts to home track bullies score on "flat" tracks and fail overseas.

Back in 90s and 2000s...this was a very popular narrative.

Heck its true even now.

I don't know how many posters here are old enough to remember but back in the day, runs in Asia used to get heavily discounted.

Heck i have seen our own fab 5 accused of scoring mountain runs on flat home tracks, with the argument being that innings 1 and 2 were too easy for them in these conditions.

Its just the narrative.

But glad to see people waking up from it.

If all Asian pitches were rank turners, not only would it be boring but it will hurt our development.

But if every pitch is dead flat that turns later on... Whats the fun in it... And moreover, you will end up with modern day bats who cant play spin to save their lives.

The best example is the Indian team itself.

Yep.

Rather than complaining about the pitches, these teams should work on how they play spin.

They make the most basic mistakes (going at the ball with hard hands, not reading the ball from the hand, etc.), and can compete in these conditions if they take the time and energy to do so.

SENA wickets seam madly, whereas subcontinent wickets don't do it after maybe about 4 overs or so. I don't hear arguments talking about seaming tracks being a sign of poor sportsmanship.

England know that they stand no chance if the other pitches behave as such, and that's why they are mad. They will lose this series if India can replicate this track two more times.

 

[OMB]

It is the former players who are complaining. The current players know they are supposed to perform in every circumstance. They also know what happens when they are in their home ground.
Ex players, who were in same situation in their playing days don't have this responsibility of performing regardless of pitches and are now free to temper their statements. Probably just a case of which side of the bed they got off.
Didn't see them tweeting about Ashwin's batting on 2nd innings on un-sportsmen like pitches.

and frankly I don't understand what is the definition of this un-sportsman like pitch? I didn't see any injury.