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Why is Canada among the top liveable countries?

Justcrazy

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Hello Friends ,


I was going through a list of Top 10 countries to live in. I found that Canada was in all list in top five.

I do not understand why it is so ? The weather is very cold. Taxes are high .

I also heard from some immigrants that they do not recognize degrees or experience outside Canada.

Its tough to get a decent job .

Despite all this , why Canada is preferred immigration destination as well ranks high among top liveable countries?

Thoughts please . :)
 
Easier to get citizenship than other countries.

Free healthcare.

Employment opportunities.

Generous student loans and education opportunities.

For the most part, a very tolerant society.

plus many many more reasons.
 
Also weather depends on where in Canada you live.

British Columbia has a moderate climate, not cold at all.
 
Easier to get citizenship than other countries.

Free healthcare.

Employment opportunities.

Generous student loans and education opportunities.

For the most part, a very tolerant society.

plus many many more reasons.

Yes , there are many good positive points.

But I was talking about immigrants . They usually do not get good jobs , start with survival jobs. If they want to study and get license , it is difficult to do intensive course and work at the same time .
 
Yes , there are many good positive points.

But I was talking about immigrants . They usually do not get good jobs , start with survival jobs. If they want to study and get license , it is difficult to do intensive course and work at the same time .

Canada is a country of immigrants and we always need to imagine how a immigrants would face in other countries and make a comparison.
Canada accepts immigrants and lets them work there itself is a big thing considering the hate most countries give nowadays to immigrants.Also the degree scenario is valid as many certificates from Asia or Africa might not be of that much value compared to Canadian degree because the quality of education is higher in Canada compared to SC countries.
 
Because there is a minimum wage, so everyone who is working, is surviving at least. Free basic health care, free education for kids until gr 12, low crime compared to Asian countries, clean, decent infrastructure ....all those above things are a result of high taxes. But those above things give immigrants a much better situation than back home. And this is for those who aren't that qualified, once you obtaon Canadian certification in your field...then sky's the limit in terms of quality of life.
 
Canada is a country of immigrants and we always need to imagine how a immigrants would face in other countries and make a comparison.
Canada accepts immigrants and lets them work there itself is a big thing considering the hate most countries give nowadays to immigrants.Also the degree scenario is valid as many certificates from Asia or Africa might not be of that much value compared to Canadian degree because the quality of education is higher in Canada compared to SC countries.


That is fine, but even after the degrees are assessed by Canadian authorities they are not recognized as far as jobs are concerned.
Immigrants have to get there degrees assessed for applying. and claiming points
 
Because there is a minimum wage, so everyone who is working, is surviving at least. Free basic health care, free education for kids until gr 12, low crime compared to Asian countries, clean, decent infrastructure ....all those above things are a result of high taxes. But those above things give immigrants a much better situation than back home. And this is for those who aren't that qualified, once you obtaon Canadian certification in your field...then sky's the limit in terms of quality of life.

Yes , but the process of certification is tough.
 
3 or 4 cities of Canada are always ranked in the top 10 best cities in the world every year
 
In spite of that, it has yet to be recreated perfectly outside of Montreal.

I whole heartedly concur..

I once had chicken karahi poutine in a desi place in Montreal. The mix of east and west was kind of weird, it tasted good but was too salty.
 
Despite all this , why Canada is preferred immigration destination as well ranks high among top liveable countries?

Thoughts please . :)

Combination of American and British qualities:

- can-do spirit
- lots of space
- friendliness
- liberal tolerance
- national health service

Plus good schools, long life expectancy, low inequality, low crime rate.
 
That is fine, but even after the degrees are assessed by Canadian authorities they are not recognized as far as jobs are concerned.
Immigrants have to get there degrees assessed for applying. and claiming points

Yes they don't even recognize SC medical degree if i'm not wrong.To maintain the quality of their country and skills they do that.The points system are you talking about their express entry visa?
 
Canada is a country of immigrants and we always need to imagine how a immigrants would face in other countries and make a comparison.
Canada accepts immigrants and lets them work there itself is a big thing considering the hate most countries give nowadays to immigrants.Also the degree scenario is valid as many certificates from Asia or Africa might not be of that much value compared to Canadian degree because the quality of education is higher in Canada compared to SC countries.

Won't work even if you were educated in Europe. It is not about educational quality, it is more of protecting the Canadian value. It is a different scenario if a Canadian company invites you and offer you a working visa.
 
Won't work even if you were educated in Europe. It is not about educational quality, it is more of protecting the Canadian value. It is a different scenario if a Canadian company invites you and offer you a working visa.

Makes sense economically for the Canadian Unis who can use this an incentive for attracting students.
 
Blind fan following by the Desis towards him is cringe worthy considering he has only been there for 2 months.

He is actually very likable, more grounded, people friendly guy. People thought he was just a pretty boy using his dad's name as a PM. His dad was the one who declared Canada as a multicultural country, accepted gay marriage and so on. This guy was a former teacher, no bad name through out his life. He was the best candidate really.

Besides show me another country's leader that can box and bust his opponent's mouth wide open ?
 
Combination of American and British qualities:

- can-do spirit
- lots of space
- friendliness
- liberal tolerance
- national health service

Plus good schools, long life expectancy, low inequality, low crime rate.

Nothing to do with American or British BS lol.
 
He is actually very likable, more grounded, people friendly guy. People thought he was just a pretty boy using his dad's name as a PM. His dad was the one who declared Canada as a multicultural country, accepted gay marriage and so on. This guy was a former teacher, no bad name through out his life. He was the best candidate really.

Besides show me another country's leader that can box and bust his opponent's mouth wide open ?

Yes but somehow i support conservatives usually so it would be hypocritical of me not to do the same there also i find the desis having dual tone on this.May be NDP is better but they have crap candidates.
 
Yes , there are many good positive points.

But I was talking about immigrants . They usually do not get good jobs , start with survival jobs. If they want to study and get license , it is difficult to do intensive course and work at the same time .

You can't have people from different countries come with their qualification and get a job just like that. It doesn't do well for the local population who spends $40,000 on education. There is no law that says you can't hire people with degrees from elsewhere. But a traditional practice that you aren't getting hired unless you have a "Canadian experience" which equals to Canadian education + Canadian work experience unless you are new to a job. Majority of the immigrant population use point system, these people have good qualification, they have good degrees, masters with experience of working in reputable companies. The youths are already complaining about lack of jobs, imagine having more people arriving in Canada with very good experience and qualification ? England or Ethiopia, you need Canadian experience.
 
Yes but somehow i support conservatives usually so it would be hypocritical of me not to do the same there also i find the desis having dual tone on this.May be NDP is better but they have crap candidates.

The Conservatives were in power for the last ten years and they imposed regressive immigration policies and discriminated on the basis of color/religion.

I'm sure you would have NOT supported the Conservatives if you were in Canada.
 
Yes but somehow i support conservatives usually so it would be hypocritical of me not to do the same there also i find the desis having dual tone on this.May be NDP is better but they have crap candidates.

The meaning of conservatism has changed in the west in recent time. Conservatism = Racist. That is what it has become. Conservatism = "support USA at all cost, corporate before people(they provide jobs), economy before environment, no barbaric practices(mainly targeting Muslims), we need to defend our country so higher military weapons, lets monitor everyone and etc". Conservatism is no longer "lets protect the people, value, language and culture". You'll know when you get here. I don't think it was smart of the conservatives to run an attacking ad accusing his rival of being "just a teacher" or say "it is not our priority" when asked about 1200 missing/murdered aboriginal women. It is no longer the value of conservatism, during election campaigns they all sound far left beyond any left imaginable, sounding like Fidel Castro and you'd think they are bringing communism back to Canada. NDP had a good leader, poor guy died of cancer, if he was around NDP would have been the ruling party and guess what ? they are far more liberal than the liberals :akhtar.
 
Makes sense economically for the Canadian Unis who can use this an incentive for attracting students.

They make loads of money, they get subsidies from governments as well. The international students pay a lot, about $30,000 a year. But hey they got that much money and most of them are from very wealthy family.
 
Canada is top only because of its tolerant policies.
Some people pointed out education until grade 12 and health care.

YES, healthcare is free but it comes at an expense of extra long wait times.
Education is free until 12 but no emphasis on discipline. Those who want to study can go places though (I was one of them).

Jobs - What jobs? Canada's unemployment rate is among the highest right now among developed countries. There is hardly anything for new grad these days. Moreover, we're in a self imposed recession. So what jobs do we have. Even I have no idea if my job would be there by march. Companies specially in alberta are laying off like there is no tomorrow.
 
Canada is top only because of its tolerant policies.
Some people pointed out education until grade 12 and health care.

YES, healthcare is free but it comes at an expense of extra long wait times.
Education is free until 12 but no emphasis on discipline. Those who want to study can go places though (I was one of them).

Jobs - What jobs? Canada's unemployment rate is among the highest right now among developed countries. There is hardly anything for new grad these days. Moreover, we're in a self imposed recession. So what jobs do we have. Even I have no idea if my job would be there by march. Companies specially in alberta are laying off like there is no tomorrow.

That's because Alberta's economy is primarily oil sands based, and extracting oil from oil sands is only feasible if the oil price is around $70-80 per barrel or more. (I was in Fort McMurray for a year)

Ontario on the other hand is seeing significant upturn in the economic situation due to emphasis on manufacturing and production.. I've seen so many people move here to Toronto from places like Calgary in the recent past. Just 5 years ago the situation was reverse..
 
That's because Alberta's economy is primarily oil sands based, and extracting oil from oil sands is only feasible if the oil price is around $70-80 per barrel or more. (I was in Fort McMurray for a year)

Ontario on the other hand is seeing significant upturn in the economic situation due to emphasis on manufacturing and production.. I've seen so many people move here to Toronto from places like Calgary in the recent past. Just 5 years ago the situation was reverse..

Yaar Ontario is still where it was. Manufacturing has moved to Mexico mainly. Not that it is all gone, but it is still not picking up.
Mostly projects in AB are feasible at $45-55. Right now at $35 is is extremely poor. Not to mention Ontario is also feeling the brunt due to petrochemical plants there. One of my friend was in manufacturing there and got laid off as he was in petrochemical there.

I may come to Ontario again if I am laid off.
 
Yaar Ontario is still where it was. Manufacturing has moved to Mexico mainly. Not that it is all gone, but it is still not picking up.
Mostly projects in AB are feasible at $45-55. Right now at $35 is is extremely poor. Not to mention Ontario is also feeling the brunt due to petrochemical plants there. One of my friend was in manufacturing there and got laid off as he was in petrochemical there.

I may come to Ontario again if I am laid off.
Ontario is not a manufacturing renaissance story. Anyone seeking a career in manufacturing shouldn't actually be in North America - except maybe in medical devices. Oil and gas jobs in AB and SK were easy money - easy jobs, hire anyone off the street, train them yourself, give them enough perks to prevent them from running away to Texas, etc.

AB and SK have only themselves to blame for sleeping on the wheel for the last ten years. Canada under the conversatives the same. In reality, there are only two sectors in all of North America that are growing like oil and gas was five years ago, so if you are not in either one of them, you really need to knock someone else off their jobs through better skills + experience to gain yours.
 
Canada is a country of immigrants and we always need to imagine how a immigrants would face in other countries and make a comparison.
Canada accepts immigrants and lets them work there itself is a big thing considering the hate most countries give nowadays to immigrants.Also the degree scenario is valid as many certificates from Asia or Africa might not be of that much value compared to Canadian degree because the quality of education is higher in Canada compared to SC countries.

I immigrated to Canada in 2012, even though i have made it and have done well compared to many other unfortunate immigrants who lose all their life's work and identity by coming here. I am not going to adopt the attitude that most desi's especially Pakistani's adopt once they become successful, relatively settled over here i.e. acting more Canadians than Canadians with their fellow Pakistani's.

Racism and economic discrimination against immigrants especially from South Asian and Middle Eastern countries is a sad reality. The only difference unlike other countries it is less vocal, less in your face and much more economic in nature. And this Canadian experience discrimination is the classic example.

There is no vast gulf or significant difference between a Canadian degree or a sub-continent degree, especially not in curriculam or academic terms. The whole system in Canada of Canadian Experience is just designed to protect the locals from immigrants.

I know of many people who were extremely unsuccessful in Canada for 2-3 years in finding jobs in their fields but the moment they went to the US or the Middle East, within a couple of months were able to find jobs in their fields even when the US was facing a big recession.

My dad is doing extremely well in Canada earning close to $700,000 in the top most private hospital, inspite of struggling initially big time, even i managed to get into the system and am earning $40,000 as a start in my first real job in my field.

But i am not going to adopt the attitude that a lot of Pakistani's in Canada have adopted towards their less fortunate Pakistani counter parts i.e. "No one asked you to come to Canada, you don't know how to sell yourself, how to net work, you think you deserve a job just because you are qualified?" e.t.c. I am not going to turn a blind eye to the tough realities that immigrants face by coming over here.

My personal observation is that i would only recommend people to come to Canada for their University studies when they are 18-19 or for their graduate studies so that they don't actually end up losing any years in trying to get into the system. But anyone in his late 30's or 40's with a family to support, take care off. Sorry don't even bother.
 
You can't have people from different countries come with their qualification and get a job just like that. It doesn't do well for the local population who spends $40,000 on education. There is no law that says you can't hire people with degrees from elsewhere. But a traditional practice that you aren't getting hired unless you have a "Canadian experience" which equals to Canadian education + Canadian work experience unless you are new to a job. Majority of the immigrant population use point system, these people have good qualification, they have good degrees, masters with experience of working in reputable companies. The youths are already complaining about lack of jobs, imagine having more people arriving in Canada with very good experience and qualification ? England or Ethiopia, you need Canadian experience.

This is where the Canadian immigration system is a scam then, people pay big money to the govt for the privillege to come here, then these immigrants come here and invest further money into the economy, but if the Canadian govt declared them elligible to migrate here based on the point system then the excuse of you can't be allowed to get a job over our local population based on your foreign qualifications and experience is just riddiculous.

If they had issues with the qualifications and experiences of these immigrants then they should have been denied immigration from the very beginning.
 
Does the US discriminate against immigrants foreign education and work experiences and demand them to go back to school and then start from fresh in the work force as much compared to Canada?

If the US had the same scenario as Canada then how on earth could it be regarded as the land of opportunity? There used to be a period when getting a US Green Card was regarded as winning the lottery.
 
The Conservatives were in power for the last ten years and they imposed regressive immigration policies and discriminated on the basis of color/religion.

I'm sure you would have NOT supported the Conservatives if you were in Canada.

The conservatives in this part of the world would had done something similar.As an immigrant ofcourse no one would support Harper.
 
I immigrated to Canada in 2012, even though i have made it and have done well compared to many other unfortunate immigrants who lose all their life's work and identity by coming here. I am not going to adopt the attitude that most desi's especially Pakistani's adopt once they become successful, relatively settled over here i.e. acting more Canadians than Canadians with their fellow Pakistani's.

Racism and economic discrimination against immigrants especially from South Asian and Middle Eastern countries is a sad reality. The only difference unlike other countries it is less vocal, less in your face and much more economic in nature. And this Canadian experience discrimination is the classic example.

There is no vast gulf or significant difference between a Canadian degree or a sub-continent degree, especially not in curriculam or academic terms. The whole system in Canada of Canadian Experience is just designed to protect the locals from immigrants.

I know of many people who were extremely unsuccessful in Canada for 2-3 years in finding jobs in their fields but the moment they went to the US or the Middle East, within a couple of months were able to find jobs in their fields even when the US was facing a big recession.

My dad is doing extremely well in Canada earning close to $700,000 in the top most private hospital, inspite of struggling initially big time, even i managed to get into the system and am earning $40,000 as a start in my first real job in my field.

But i am not going to adopt the attitude that a lot of Pakistani's in Canada have adopted towards their less fortunate Pakistani counter parts i.e. "No one asked you to come to Canada, you don't know how to sell yourself, how to net work, you think you deserve a job just because you are qualified?" e.t.c. I am not going to turn a blind eye to the tough realities that immigrants face by coming over here.

My personal observation is that i would only recommend people to come to Canada for their University studies when they are 18-19 or for their graduate studies so that they don't actually end up losing any years in trying to get into the system. But anyone in his late 30's or 40's with a family to support, take care off. Sorry don't even bother.

Good post and i agree on certain things but here is the thing if by other means you enter Canada through relatives or marriage then even without a degree there are other well paying jobs in transportation,Stores esp which people from this part of the world can do without being that well educated and still be paid decently and allowed to make a living.
There is a lot of different between USA and Canada in terms of economy and i don't really think its the right comparison anyhow all in my view.
 
Good post and i agree on certain things but here is the thing if by other means you enter Canada through relatives or marriage then even without a degree there are other well paying jobs in transportation,Stores esp which people from this part of the world can do without being that well educated and still be paid decently and allowed to make a living.
There is a lot of different between USA and Canada in terms of economy and i don't really think its the right comparison anyhow all in my view.

I agree with a few things. The problem is that people who studied, worked really hard in professional fields which required you to get a top notch qualification i.e. MBA, PHD, CA e.t.c. and which require years and years of solid professional work experience, the problem is that once you come to a country where these things are automatically rendered useless and worthless, it results in a massive loss of identity, feelings of self worth e.t.c. People who worked in professional fields all their lives, for them to go into jobs like being security guards, bus drivers e.t.c. is just not easy at all.

However it is possible to earn a relatively decent standard of living if one decides to adopt to the harsh realities of the system and acts accordingly. For e.g. for late immigrants, it is a given that life as a professional in Canada will be very tough, in some cases you have to accept the fact that if you indeed want to live in Canada for the rest of your life then you need to accept the fact that your life as a professional in this country is over. However that doesn't mean all is lost, you can adapt to the economic system and look for other ways to earn a decent income for e.g. like you said, licensing yourself to become a long haul truck driver, driving taxi's, taking a risk by trying to open a convenience store, gas pump, resteraunt e.t.c.

While Canada is extremely bad for professionals who were well off in their own countries before moving here, it is actually a better place for people who were living extremely hand to mouth in Pakistan as even though they would be doing the same in Canada but the difference is they would be doing it in a country with much added benefits.

Anyways all my friends and contacts who always consult me before applying for immigration, i always make it my mission to tell them about the ground realities in Canada so that they know full well what they are getting into.
 
The meaning of conservatism has changed in the west in recent time. Conservatism = Racist. That is what it has become. Conservatism = "support USA at all cost, corporate before people(they provide jobs), economy before environment, no barbaric practices(mainly targeting Muslims), we need to defend our country so higher military weapons, lets monitor everyone and etc". Conservatism is no longer "lets protect the people, value, language and culture". You'll know when you get here. I don't think it was smart of the conservatives to run an attacking ad accusing his rival of being "just a teacher" or say "it is not our priority" when asked about 1200 missing/murdered aboriginal women. It is no longer the value of conservatism, during election campaigns they all sound far left beyond any left imaginable, sounding like Fidel Castro and you'd think they are bringing communism back to Canada. NDP had a good leader, poor guy died of cancer, if he was around NDP would have been the ruling party and guess what ? they are far more liberal than the liberals :akhtar.

Lol then i wouldn't support them,tbh conservatives can save the existing culture and life of a country but that's just imo.
 
I agree with a few things. The problem is that people who studied, worked really hard in professional fields which required you to get a top notch qualification i.e. MBA, PHD, CA e.t.c. and which require years and years of solid professional work experience, the problem is that once you come to a country where these things are automatically rendered useless and worthless, it results in a massive loss of identity, feelings of self worth e.t.c. People who worked in professional fields all their lives, for them to go into jobs like being security guards, bus drivers e.t.c. is just not easy at all.

However it is possible to earn a relatively decent standard of living if one decides to adopt to the harsh realities of the system and acts accordingly. For e.g. for late immigrants, it is a given that life as a professional in Canada will be very tough, in some cases you have to accept the fact that if you indeed want to live in Canada for the rest of your life then you need to accept the fact that your life as a professional in this country is over. However that doesn't mean all is lost, you can adapt to the economic system and look for other ways to earn a decent income for e.g. like you said, licensing yourself to become a long haul truck driver, driving taxi's, taking a risk by trying to open a convenience store, gas pump, resteraunt e.t.c.

While Canada is extremely bad for professionals who were well off in their own countries before moving here, it is actually a better place for people who were living extremely hand to mouth in Pakistan as even though they would be doing the same in Canada but the difference is they would be doing it in a country with much added benefits.

Anyways all my friends and contacts who always consult me before applying for immigration, i always make it my mission to tell them about the ground realities in Canada so that they know full well what they are getting into.

Exactly, its also a good place for people seeking asylum(USA is obviously better) considering they would had lost all in their country already.
 
Yes they don't even recognize SC medical degree if i'm not wrong.To maintain the quality of their country and skills they do that.The points system are you talking about their express entry visa?

Yes , now it is express entry . Before that it was FSW.

Most of the occupations required license , and its really tough to get that working.
 
You can't have people from different countries come with their qualification and get a job just like that. It doesn't do well for the local population who spends $40,000 on education. There is no law that says you can't hire people with degrees from elsewhere. But a traditional practice that you aren't getting hired unless you have a "Canadian experience" which equals to Canadian education + Canadian work experience unless you are new to a job. Majority of the immigrant population use point system, these people have good qualification, they have good degrees, masters with experience of working in reputable companies. The youths are already complaining about lack of jobs, imagine having more people arriving in Canada with very good experience and qualification ? England or Ethiopia, you need Canadian experience.

You will get experience only when you get a job :)
 
This is where the Canadian immigration system is a scam then, people pay big money to the govt for the privillege to come here, then these immigrants come here and invest further money into the economy, but if the Canadian govt declared them elligible to migrate here based on the point system then the excuse of you can't be allowed to get a job over our local population based on your foreign qualifications and experience is just riddiculous.

If they had issues with the qualifications and experiences of these immigrants then they should have been denied immigration from the very beginning.

Very good point made . This is what I was trying to say.
 
I know a lot of immigrants into Canada start out feeling like it is them vs the system, but once they spend ten years (or so) in the country, they realize it is actually not. Yes, some professions don't let you practice based on your overseas quals, but that makes perfect sense. Why would you - when the process to qualify your locals is utterly different and you shut plenty of the locals out in the name of competition?

Take medicine, for instance. There is only a small portion of the locals that get through the system, so why should someone be able to sidestep the competitive process with their overseas quals and simply get to sail through?

For most industries, the immigrants get shut out by the employers - and NOT the government or some other conspiracy movement. As an employer, you are looking at two candidates:

- One has foreign quals and the other has local.
- One has foreign experience, the other has local experience.
- You as an employer have complete visibility into the process of the local quals and experience, while their foreign counterparts are as opaque as they can get.
- The locals provide references from local supervisors who you know or can know, while those from overseas are as good as a random letter typed up by God knows who.

Let's not even get to the language part, but if you were an employer being compensated to hire the best worker with lowest risk, who would you hire?

Expectations Gap

The problem with the new immigrants is, they all go after the same jobs in the same city in the same industry. Every third person wants to work for a bank in Toronto, for example. They have zero bent for doing any networking or finding a job through productive channels; but they will sit behind a computer terminal all day long and apply online to 100s of jobs hoping that the keyword parser glitches out for a second and throws up their CV in front of the recruiter.

Why is it easier in the US?

1. It is 10x the size and people pack up and leave all the time. They don't have an immigration system as Canada does, so all that movement has to be filled in from whichever source possible. The hiring standards - outside of a few industries - are lower because of these demand/supply reasons.

2. There are almost 30 US cities you cannot differentiate among as an immigrant, so you don't mind settling down in Omaha, or St Louis, or Phoenix (and, mind you, they are all fine cities - I vacation out to AZ and NV deserts every couple of years). But, in Canada, 80% of the immigrants moving in cannot even tell that the country's capital is not Toronto. They feel that if they move out out of the city, they will freeze to death in a local convenience store in -40 degrees celsius while wrapped in 7 layers of plush velvet.

The Flaws

That doesn't mean the system - or whatever you want to call it - is without its flaws.

I. The primary flaw is a lack of an effort on the part of the inviting government to retrain the newcomers or reconfigure their skills to meet those in demand. They are trying to do it, but like everything else needing governmental initiative, it is always too little too late.

II. The investment in the industries that are fledging in the US has also been too little too late. Canada is conservative. Very tolerant, but conservative. (And, did I mention, it is a small place.) It changes slowly because those in charge of changing it are far and few between - and they don't really want it to.

----------

Oh, BTW, the only asylum seeking that takes place in North America is for those who are extremely well off in their own countries, but need a North American passport as an insurance. For everyone else, the worldwide asylum is the Middle East. The number of people who couldn't find a job in their own countries but miraculously rose to become the director or VP of a Middle Eastern copycat/trade business is simply staggering.
 
I would echo ironcat's comments. I will say that I have see and know several professionals from Pakistan and other countries who have immigrated and found jobs with their foreign degrees. The difference between them and the ones that complain to no end is that they make the effort to network, polish their English skills and make an effort to appear professional and polished. sure you can immigrate here on the points system or whatever it is called today, but you can't be so naive to think that you will get a job because you are entitled to it without making the effort to assimilate to some extent.

Also, and this may be my own experience but I find many people coming to Canada just to get the passport and then bolting to the Middle East, making comments such as how they can't wait to leave once their sentence is over, etc. I have no sympathy for these types.

Immigrants coming to Canada today face tough conditions mainly due to the economy, the available labour pool is quite large so any employer is going to pick the locally qualified person with local experience. It costs less to train this person and he/she will be productive right away.
 
I know a lot of immigrants into Canada start out feeling like it is them vs the system, but once they spend ten years (or so) in the country, they realize it is actually not. Yes, some professions don't let you practice based on your overseas quals, but that makes perfect sense. Why would you - when the process to qualify your locals is utterly different and you shut plenty of the locals out in the name of competition?

Take medicine, for instance. There is only a small portion of the locals that get through the system, so why should someone be able to sidestep the competitive process with their overseas quals and simply get to sail through?

For most industries, the immigrants get shut out by the employers - and NOT the government or some other conspiracy movement. As an employer, you are looking at two candidates:

- One has foreign quals and the other has local.
- One has foreign experience, the other has local experience.
- You as an employer have complete visibility into the process of the local quals and experience, while their foreign counterparts are as opaque as they can get.
- The locals provide references from local supervisors who you know or can know, while those from overseas are as good as a random letter typed up by God knows who.

Let's not even get to the language part, but if you were an employer being compensated to hire the best worker with lowest risk, who would you hire?

Expectations Gap

The problem with the new immigrants is, they all go after the same jobs in the same city in the same industry. Every third person wants to work for a bank in Toronto, for example. They have zero bent for doing any networking or finding a job through productive channels; but they will sit behind a computer terminal all day long and apply online to 100s of jobs hoping that the keyword parser glitches out for a second and throws up their CV in front of the recruiter.

Why is it easier in the US?

1. It is 10x the size and people pack up and leave all the time. They don't have an immigration system as Canada does, so all that movement has to be filled in from whichever source possible. The hiring standards - outside of a few industries - are lower because of these demand/supply reasons.

2. There are almost 30 US cities you cannot differentiate among as an immigrant, so you don't mind settling down in Omaha, or St Louis, or Phoenix (and, mind you, they are all fine cities - I vacation out to AZ and NV deserts every couple of years). But, in Canada, 80% of the immigrants moving in cannot even tell that the country's capital is not Toronto. They feel that if they move out out of the city, they will freeze to death in a local convenience store in -40 degrees celsius while wrapped in 7 layers of plush velvet.

The Flaws

That doesn't mean the system - or whatever you want to call it - is without its flaws.

I. The primary flaw is a lack of an effort on the part of the inviting government to retrain the newcomers or reconfigure their skills to meet those in demand. They are trying to do it, but like everything else needing governmental initiative, it is always too little too late.

II. The investment in the industries that are fledging in the US has also been too little too late. Canada is conservative. Very tolerant, but conservative. (And, did I mention, it is a small place.) It changes slowly because those in charge of changing it are far and few between - and they don't really want it to.

----------

Oh, BTW, the only asylum seeking that takes place in North America is for those who are extremely well off in their own countries, but need a North American passport as an insurance. For everyone else, the worldwide asylum is the Middle East. The number of people who couldn't find a job in their own countries but miraculously rose to become the director or VP of a Middle Eastern copycat/trade business is simply staggering.

People do not immigrate to Canada for free, they come after paying a lot of money and even when they do come to live in the country they continue to invest their savings till they are depleted.

The reason why this whole immigration system is a scam is because the govt is giving you points based on your qualifications, professional experiences and giving you the impression that you are in high demand in the country. Ofcourse the realities when you land over here are completely different and you get shell shocked.

My point is that if the immigrants are not welcomed economically, professionally and the only easy jobs available to them are minimum wage jobs for which they are over qualified then why were they let into the country, for what?

Fine, yes these immigrants made a choice to come here but why did the govt allow them into the country knowing full well that they will not be accepted into the system so easily?

The employment and hiring culture between Canada and the rest of the world is totally different. When you have to constantly sell yourself like salesman for every entry level job out there, network for every entry level job out there, if everyone was an expert salesman in selling themselves then why would anyone do a job in the first place? If someone was an expert salesman who could sell himself, create an instant impression on anyone just like that, then why would such a person not go into business or go for a salesman job where he could put these skills to great use and get commissions knowing full well he has the talent and abilities?

Point being if immigrants are extremely worse of in Canada but not in the US or other western countries then the problem is not with these immigrants. These immigrants who were out of their fields for 4-5 years before successfully getting jobs in their fields in the US, UK or the Middle east are not loosers, they did not lack skills, the fact is the country of Canada discriminated against them and made them feel unnecessarily unwanted in favor of the locals.

If anything it is the Canadian govt which needs to take these organizations to task for these discrinatory policies. Heck i even saw a famous article where the author did an eye opening experiment. He applied for a 100 positions in Toronto, same resume, same work experience, same qualifications. Only difference was that one resume had a Muslim/Arabic name and the other resume had a local Canadian name. The Muslim resume got a maximum of 2-3 responses while the local named resume got 50-60 responses.

All the desi people who are well settled over here but choose to criticize their fellow struggling desi's for not being successful are the classic problem of the Muslim ummah and Pakistani's overall in general around the world. Indians look after Indians, Jews look after Jews, Agha Khani's look after Agha Khani's but fellow Pakistani's i am sorry to say will always look at another Pakistani with contempt and with a source of insecurity, competition.

I am not making these comments out of any frustration. I have been very lucky and successful in Canada so far since immigrating here 3 years ago along with other family members. But i am not going to adopt the attitude that most Pakistani's adopt with their fellow unsuccessful Pakistani's and act more Canadian than Canadian with them. I will call a spade a spade. This country is not all that rosy as everyone like's to bully others into believing, there are serious flaws with the immigration and economic system.
 
I would echo ironcat's comments. I will say that I have see and know several professionals from Pakistan and other countries who have immigrated and found jobs with their foreign degrees. The difference between them and the ones that complain to no end is that they make the effort to network, polish their English skills and make an effort to appear professional and polished. sure you can immigrate here on the points system or whatever it is called today, but you can't be so naive to think that you will get a job because you are entitled to it without making the effort to assimilate to some extent.

Where is the entitlement? Do you think people immigrate to Canada for free? People pay a lot of money to apply for visas, go through the process and wind up there affairs to come here. Then when they do come here, they invest their life savings before they deplete, the only real beneficiary is the govt and the country of Canada so far in this whole process. It was the Canadian govt which scammed these immigrants into granting them immigration on the points system leading them to believe that their skills, professional qualifications outside Canada were in high demand in Canada, if they were not then they should have refused them immigration in the first place, the fact they did not is what makes the whole immigration system a scam.

Also, and this may be my own experience but I find many people coming to Canada just to get the passport and then bolting to the Middle East, making comments such as how they can't wait to leave once their sentence is over, etc. I have no sympathy for these types.

Why do you not feel any sympathy for them? Would you rather that they struggle for eternity in low paying survival jobs and continue to face eternal rejection in a country discriminating against them economically for no justified reasons at all? Why do these immigrants who were out of their fields for 4-5 years successfully manage to land a job in their fields in the US and Middle east? Is the problem with these immigrants or the country of Canada?

Do these immigrants not have the right to make the best decision for themselves based on their precarious circumstances where they cannot afford to remain under employed forever?

Immigrants coming to Canada today face tough conditions mainly due to the economy, the available labour pool is quite large so any employer is going to pick the locally qualified person with local experience. It costs less to train this person and he/she will be productive right away. -

There you go my friend, that explains the Canadian Govt scam. Why is it allowing these immigrants into the country then taking money from them in the process based on their foreign qualifications and experience giving them the impression that their foreign skills and experiences are in high demand in the country?

Do you realize that some immigrants even go back to School in Canada and get local degrees, even local work experience but still struggle to get jobs in big organizations? That Muslim resume vs Local resume experiment is a classic example
 
I think the salesman comment is a bit oversimplified, everyone has to sell themselves that's the point of going into a job interview. Your skills and rcpetience on a resume don't matter much if you can't convince an employer you're the best candidate. I have seen this work the opposite to what you have described. Stellar desi candidate on paper, bring him in for an interview and he can't answer basic questions, unable to provide examples of his accomplishments, etc.

Qualified immigrants are let in but they should not be so naive to think they will get a job automatically without being able to perform in an interview or face to face meeting.
 
I think the salesman comment is a bit oversimplified, everyone has to sell themselves that's the point of going into a job interview. Your skills and rcpetience on a resume don't matter much if you can't convince an employer you're the best candidate. I have seen this work the opposite to what you have described. Stellar desi candidate on paper, bring him in for an interview and he can't answer basic questions, unable to provide examples of his accomplishments, etc.

Qualified immigrants are let in but they should not be so naive to think they will get a job automatically without being able to perform in an interview or face to face meeting.

Work Experience is Work Experience, Some people do well in jobs than interviews alone. Secondly a lot of immigrants dont even get interview calls to even explain themselves in the first place. There are so many people who performed and delivered once they got that first opportunity.

Point is Canada is perhaps the only country in the world where a job applicant even for the most basic entry level position is expected to sell himself like an expert salesman.

If these candidates face no problems in the US or Middle East but face so many unnecessarily hurdle in Canada, then explain what makes Canada so unique, so special that these perfectly fit candidates have to go out of their way to convince an employer for a basic entry level position?

It is no wonder that a lot of immigrants just surrender into waiting for the PP and trying to get what they truly deserve on merit in the US or Middle East. Try waiting for months and years being out of your primarily field, being under employed with responsibilities e.t.c.
 
As much as I'm loving the warm weather right now, you gotta feel for those whose livelihood depends on the winters being cold.

True.

TBH, I am kinda missing the snow. The first couple of times it snows looks beautiful. To add to that, there is always a glimmer of hope of school being cancelled. :))
 
It's hard to answer your question without knowing what "basic entry level job" you are referring to?

The economy in the US is multiple times bigger than Canada and far more diversified, that is probably one reason.

As far as selling yourself goes, different countries have different work cultures. In Canada as in many other places, you need to sell yourself in an interview, how else can you be assessed for suitability? You can't show up with your pants down and expect to get hired just because you have relevant work experience.
 
True.

TBH, I am kinda missing the snow. The first couple of times it snows looks beautiful. To add to that, there is always a glimmer of hope of school being cancelled. :))

Aha, trueee. The first couple of snowfalls makes everything more livelier and beautiful and the holidays aren't the holidays without snow.
 
The economy in the US is multiple times bigger than Canada and far more diversified, that is probably one reason.

Or maybe the US is less dicriminatory towards immigrants compared to Canada perhaps, more open to giving them a chance without hurdles?

As far as selling yourself goes, different countries have different work cultures. In Canada as in many other places, you need to sell yourself in an interview, how else can you be assessed for suitability? You can't show up with your pants down and expect to get hired just because you have relevant work experience.

That's what i am saying, Canada is perhaps the only country in the world with such a discriminatory work culture. Local candidates i.e. white name, white face, Canadian accent get hired very easily just on the basis of relevant local experience.

The basic purpose of a job is to avoid running your own business and constantly having to sell yourself likes a Salesman responsible for meeting monthly targets right? If immigrants are expected to sell themselves in this country for every minute thing, then why not just open a business?

I think the Muslim resume vs Local resume example explains the discrimination that exists in Canada towards immigrants.
 
People do not immigrate to Canada for free, they come after paying a lot of money ... This country is not all that rosy as everyone like's to bully others into believing, there are serious flaws with the immigration and economic system

1. What kind of money? Is it any more money than you would pay to apply to an MBA program or another overseas quals system? Canada doesn't profit from these fees; there are costs involved in administering the process. People line up to pay these fees and apply, so clearly they don't mind them. As for the savings, you would have used them to live anywhere else in the world too.

2. Who said you would be accepted into the system so easily? If someone thought so, they were either qualified enough or they were misinformed. As I already laid out in my post, why would anyone hire a foreign qualified and experiences individual over the like-for-like local? What's in it for the employer? The boasting of the 'hey, I helped out an immigrant' claim? But, the good news is, you can change all of it. Like you yourself said you did. People drop two years of their lives in a heartbeat to head to the MBA programs or to pursue a law degree. If you live long enough to reach the average Canadian life expectancy of 80 years, what are those two years worth to you in the long run?

3. I feel it is incredibly easy to immigrate to Canada compared to, say, the US. You are being immigrated into one of the world's best-living-standards country, provided free healthcare, given free North-American-standard education, amidst an almost non-existent crime rate or social adversity. All for the cost of an MBA application? And then instead of accepting at least a bit of the responsibility to either study in the county or work harder to find a job, why would you find a way to complain?

4. I cannot relate to any 'salesperson-style' experience in the process of either hiring someone or getting hired - either myself or anyone else around me. The person hiring you is a human. You have to appeal to that human in the same way you would for getting accepted into a school, into someone's heart, or into a family. Neither does that person owe you a job, nor does he or she have you as the only applicant. So, do a good job.

5. Your comments about being a Muslim job applicant - and then the narrative about the identification of the 'classical problem with the Ummah' can be discussed in a separate thread. Pakistanis comprise ~4% of new immigrants compared to 13% Chinese, 12% Indians, and 10% filipinos - and they all face the same issues regardless of their religion.

6. Like I said already, there are problems with the immigration system - but not of the kind you seem to believe in.
 
1. What kind of money? Is it any more money than you would pay to apply to an MBA program or another overseas quals system? Canada doesn't profit from these fees; there are costs involved in administering the process. People line up to pay these fees and apply, so clearly they don't mind them. As for the savings, you would have used them to live anywhere else in the world too.

These fees generate many millions and millions of dollars to the Canadian govt from both applicants they accept and reject.

Ofcourse people will have to utilize their savings in any country of the world they go too but they get a much better return on their savings, investments in other countries of the world compared to Canada.

2. Who said you would be accepted into the system so easily? If someone thought so, they were either qualified enough or they were misinformed. As I already laid out in my post, why would anyone hire a foreign qualified and experiences individual over the like-for-like local? What's in it for the employer? The boasting of the 'hey, I helped out an immigrant' claim? But, the good news is, you can change all of it. Like you yourself said you did. People drop two years of their lives in a heartbeat to head to the MBA programs or to pursue a law degree. If you live long enough to reach the average Canadian life expectancy of 80 years, what are those two years worth to you in the long run?

That's the thing, the Canadian govt reflect reality of their policies. If there is no demand for foreign qualified doctors in Canada and if foreign qualified doctors cannot get jobs in Canada then they should shut down the quota for foreign qualified doctors.

The local employer who is guilty of discrimination needs to be punished by the govt via fines and penalties in cases where they blatantly discriminate against immigrants and their foreign qualifications, work experience.

What will it cost the country of Canada to completely let immigrants into their economy and system, maybe it might lead to a more diversified economy, more jobs, new opportunities, new ideas, ways of thinking. Has it hurt the US where they let immigrants into their systems in a heart beat?

Bottom line if the Canadian govt doesn't intervene and penalize these organizations, the situation for immigrants overall will not change.

I think it is very naive on your part to ask what is the real cost of re-educating one's self for 2-3 years to get into the system. Well guess what, this might be feasible for a young guy with no family, no responsibilities where he can afford to spend 2-3 years re-educating himself and then start off again in an entry level position to just get into the system, but for a guy with a family, with responsibilities and especially someone who immigrates here at a very late age, it is no easy task.

Also some fields like medicine or engineering require re-educating yourself and this can take 3-5 years which not anyone can afford certainly not the primary bread earner of the family i.e. the man. Some women are lucky to have well off husbands who pay their bills, basic needs, can afford to hire nanny's to look after the kids while the wife goes to school but some families can't afford these facilities, luxuries hence one person has to make the sacrifice and stay at home.

I feel it is incredibly easy to immigrate to Canada compared to, say, the US. You are being immigrated into one of the world's best-living-standards country, provided free healthcare, given free North-American-standard education, amidst an almost non-existent crime rate or social adversity. All for the cost of an MBA application? And then instead of accepting at least a bit of the responsibility to either study in the county or work harder to find a job, why would you find a way to complain? -

This again is a classic Desi or should i say Pakistani way of talking to a fellow struggling Pakistani (thankfully not me) and acting more Canadian than Canadian i.e. you didn't work hard enough to get a job, you didn't study in the country, you are getting all these benefits.

Excuse me, nothing in this country is for free. This free North American standard education comes in the form of OSAP which you have to repay to the govt, this free health care is the result of the 50% taxes Canadians have to pay. Yes it is good to a low crime rate but a struggling poor immigrant will not enjoy a high or decent standard of living compared to a guy with a good job.

I am calling a spade a spade here regarding the realities in Canada for immigrants, if you feel that is complaining then so be it.

I cannot relate to any 'salesperson-style' experience in the process of either hiring someone or getting hired - either myself or anyone else around me. The person hiring you is a human. You have to appeal to that human in the same way you would for getting accepted into a school, into someone's heart, or into a family. Neither does that person owe you a job, nor does he or she have you as the only applicant. So, do a good job -

Nope, nobody owes anyone anything but beeing down right discriminatory is just unacceptable and a basic violation of human rights. It is inhuman to dismiss someone's education, work experiences even if they are superior or more relevant to a local candidate who in some cases is fresh out of high school or college with no relevant experience, only on the basis they were acquired outside Canada.

That person is guilty of down right discrimination and only strong legal punitive fines, penalties against that individual, organization will go a long way towards fixing the attitude of these people.

The horrible demand and supply situation in Canada is the fault of the govt of Canada for letting so many immigrants into the Country if there are not enough jobs for them or in some cases no jobs for them.

I am glad so many immigrants were able to re-establish their dignity, pride and self respect when they easily found jobs in their fields in the US and Middle East and found the sacrifice of waiting it out for the Canadian PP worth it in the end.

5. Your comments about being a Muslim job applicant - and then the narrative about the identification of the 'classical problem with the Ummah' can be discussed in a separate thread. Pakistanis comprise ~4% of new immigrants compared to 13% Chinese, 12% Indians, and 10% filipinos - and they all face the same issues regardless of their religion.

I think the article i talked about spoke in general about the problems being faced by all immigrants to Canada.
 
These fees generate many millions and millions of dollars to the Canadian govt from both applicants they accept and reject.
Yes because there are millions and millions of dollars of costs to bear to process these applications.

AlphaFighter said:
Ofcourse people will have to utilize their savings in any country of the world they go too but they get a much better return on their savings, investments in other countries of the world compared to Canada.
What returns? You mean, in the savings accounts? When they get frozen due to FC issues? Or when the currency depreciates? You can invest your money anywhere in the world while sitting in Canada. That being said, Canadian real estate has been one of the best investment classes in the world in the last 15 years given the global risk/reward.

AlphaFighter said:
That's the thing, the Canadian govt reflect reality of their policies. If there is no demand for foreign qualified doctors in Canada and if foreign qualified doctors cannot get jobs in Canada then they should shut down the quota for foreign qualified doctors.
There is no quota for foreign qualified doctors. There is no quota for foreign qualified bankers. Or lawyers. Or administrative assistants. There are specific preferential quotas for trades-based skills due to severe lack of such skills in Canada. Everyone else comes in based on the same rules. Read them here:
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/apply-who.asp

If you are a foreign-qualified doctor, you need to do your own research on where the opportunities are for your skills. Well before you decide whether to immigrate. Canada is not holding signs in Pakistan enchanting 'Doctors needed, this way please'.

AlphaFighter said:
The local employer who is guilty of discrimination needs to be punished by the govt via fines and penalties in cases where they blatantly discriminate against immigrants and their foreign qu ... Bottom line if the Canadian govt doesn't intervene and penalize these organizations, the situation for immigrants overall will not change.
Most of you what you state above is factually incorrect:

1. Canada is a democracy like the US. Employers can do whatever they want to hire the skills they need. Canadian oil and gas employers, for example, have recruited heavily in the past from the Middle East due to a lack of such skill base in Canada. They won't hire the locals for that reason. US is exactly the same. It does not allow or prevent anyone anywhere from hiring - other than discrimination based on age, religion, etc. - as in Canada.

2. Canada is much more diversified in immigrants than the US. Canada accepts ~300K new immigrants annually - about 1% of its population. US as whole issues 1 million green cards a year: ~0.3% of its population. Only 15% of the US green cards are issued for economic reasons, while ~60% of the Canadian immigrants are admitted due to the economic needs. See more at:
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/in-immigration-us-loses-out-to-canada-2013-10-18

AlphaFighter said:
I think it is very naive on your part to ask what is the real cost of re-educating one's self for 2-3 years to get into the system. Well guess what, this might be feasible for a young guy with no family, no responsibilities where he can afford to spend 2-3 years re-educating himself and then start off again in an entry level position to just get into the system, but for a guy with a family, with responsibilities and especially someone who immigrates here at a very late age, it is no easy task.
Well, such a guy should ask himself that question BEFORE immigrating. He is, after all, immigrating into a country with a highly skilled labour force. He should expect competition. In fact, he should be glad that not everyone is able to hack this process resulting in a lower overall quality.

Yet, if people are lining up to immigrate, it means that they accept the risks and view the benefits of doing so much greater than the costs. More importantly, they understand the hard work needed to build a career in a new country.

AlphaFighter said:
Also some fields like medicine or engineering require re-educating yourself and this can take 3-5 years which not anyone can afford certainly not the primary bread earner of the family i.e. the man. Some women are lucky to have well off husbands who pay their bills, basic needs, can afford to hire nanny's to look after the kids while the wife goes to school but some families can't afford these facilities, luxuries hence one person has to make the sacrifice and stay at home.
That same thing is true for any local as well. That is the reality of today's economy; and if someone can't figure this out yet, they don't belong in today's workplace. You need to train, retrain, and retrain. MBA programs are perfect examples, but even at workplace, you need to relocate, get reassigned, and make sacrifices. If you feel 3-5 years is too long, then don't do it - do something else. Or, move to a country that accepts lower standards.

I, for one, am glad that the Canadian system doesn't allow anyone with any degree or any experience to operate on me if I get a heartstroke. I want that person to be trained in a system that doesn't compromise on standards.

AlphaFighter said:
This again is a classic Desi or should i say Pakistani way of talking to a fellow struggling Pakistani (thankfully not me) and acting more Canadian than Canadian i.e. you didn't work hard enough to get a job, you didn't study in the country, you are getting all these benefits.

Excuse me, nothing in this country is for free. This free North American standard education comes in the form of OSAP which you have to repay to the govt, this free health care is the result of the 50% taxes Canadians have to pay. Yes it is good to a low crime rate but a struggling poor immigrant will not enjoy a high or decent standard of living compared to a guy with a good job.

I am calling a spade a spade here regarding the realities in Canada for immigrants, if you feel that is complaining then so be it.
If I am giving such advice to a struggling immigrant, I think I am being very helpful. Rather than showing them the unscrupulous shortcuts to life, I am giving them the real life's lesson. One that is much more likely to help them succeed.

Like I said, if you don't want to do the hard work and want to have everything offered to you on a plate, then either win a lottery or don't immigrate. This country is giving you benefits that you aren't paying a cent for. Someone else is. Someone who has (A) worked hard, (B) made money, and (C) paid taxes pays for your free schooling, OSAP interest, and free healthcare. As a new immigrant, if you don't have a job, you pay nothing. So, get off your lazy back, study some or work hard and then be successful like everyone else had to. Regardless of immigration or not.

A struggling new immigrant will struggle to buy a new iphone without doing the hard work needed for finding a job, sure. That new immigrant can still walk into any clinic to receive North-American standard healthcare for free, can still apply for social welfare, and can still attend some sort of school for free. In fact, for some types of professions where there are skill shortages, the taxes of the rest of the population are used to provide a second-career stipend - to pay for your living expenses too.

AlphaFighter said:
Nope, nobody owes anyone anything but beeing down right discriminatory is just unacceptable and a basic violation of human rights. It is inhuman to dismiss someone's education, work experiences even if they are superior or more relevant to a local candidate who in some ... ... dignity, pride and self respect when they easily found jobs in their fields in the US and Middle East and found the sacrifice of waiting it out for the Canadian PP worth it in the end.
Calling a spade a spade in an anonymous online forum is an 'honorable' achievement. If you feel so strongly about it, why don't you raise this issue with the UN or another Human Rights organization? I mean, if this "discrimination based on skills and experience" is really a true issue, then I'm sure:
(A) No one will be lining up to apply for Canadian immigration;
(B) Your arguments will be getting propagated by all human rights activists around the globe; and
(C) Every immigrant will be rushing to get out of this country as seen through a dramatic decline in its population ranks.

AlphaFighter said:
I think the article i talked about spoke in general about the problems being faced by all immigrants to Canada.
Then, next time quote one where it shows the use of an "immigrant" name vs a Muslim name.
 
I would echo ironcat's comments. I will say that I have see and know several professionals from Pakistan and other countries who have immigrated and found jobs with their foreign degrees. The difference between them and the ones that complain to no end is that they make the effort to network, polish their English skills and make an effort to appear professional and polished. sure you can immigrate here on the points system or whatever it is called today, but you can't be so naive to think that you will get a job because you are entitled to it without making the effort to assimilate to some extent.

Also, and this may be my own experience but I find many people coming to Canada just to get the passport and then bolting to the Middle East, making comments such as how they can't wait to leave once their sentence is over, etc. I have no sympathy for these types.

Immigrants coming to Canada today face tough conditions mainly due to the economy, the available labour pool is quite large so any employer is going to pick the locally qualified person with local experience. It costs less to train this person and he/she will be productive right away.

Are you immigrant ? what kind of job are you doing ?
 
People do not immigrate to Canada for free, they come after paying a lot of money and even when they do come to live in the country they continue to invest their savings till they are depleted.

The reason why this whole immigration system is a scam is because the govt is giving you points based on your qualifications, professional experiences and giving you the impression that you are in high demand in the country. Ofcourse the realities when you land over here are completely different and you get shell shocked.

My point is that if the immigrants are not welcomed economically, professionally and the only easy jobs available to them are minimum wage jobs for which they are over qualified then why were they let into the country, for what?

Fine, yes these immigrants made a choice to come here but why did the govt allow them into the country knowing full well that they will not be accepted into the system so easily?

The employment and hiring culture between Canada and the rest of the world is totally different. When you have to constantly sell yourself like salesman for every entry level job out there, network for every entry level job out there, if everyone was an expert salesman in selling themselves then why would anyone do a job in the first place? If someone was an expert salesman who could sell himself, create an instant impression on anyone just like that, then why would such a person not go into business or go for a salesman job where he could put these skills to great use and get commissions knowing full well he has the talent and abilities?

Point being if immigrants are extremely worse of in Canada but not in the US or other western countries then the problem is not with these immigrants. These immigrants who were out of their fields for 4-5 years before successfully getting jobs in their fields in the US, UK or the Middle east are not loosers, they did not lack skills, the fact is the country of Canada discriminated against them and made them feel unnecessarily unwanted in favor of the locals.

If anything it is the Canadian govt which needs to take these organizations to task for these discrinatory policies. Heck i even saw a famous article where the author did an eye opening experiment. He applied for a 100 positions in Toronto, same resume, same work experience, same qualifications. Only difference was that one resume had a Muslim/Arabic name and the other resume had a local Canadian name. The Muslim resume got a maximum of 2-3 responses while the local named resume got 50-60 responses.

All the desi people who are well settled over here but choose to criticize their fellow struggling desi's for not being successful are the classic problem of the Muslim ummah and Pakistani's overall in general around the world. Indians look after Indians, Jews look after Jews, Agha Khani's look after Agha Khani's but fellow Pakistani's i am sorry to say will always look at another Pakistani with contempt and with a source of insecurity, competition.

I am not making these comments out of any frustration. I have been very lucky and successful in Canada so far since immigrating here 3 years ago along with other family members. But i am not going to adopt the attitude that most Pakistani's adopt with their fellow unsuccessful Pakistani's and act more Canadian than Canadian with them. I will call a spade a spade. This country is not all that rosy as everyone like's to bully others into believing, there are serious flaws with the immigration and economic system.

Great Post , POW .

worth reading .
 
Ontario is not a manufacturing renaissance story. Anyone seeking a career in manufacturing shouldn't actually be in North America - except maybe in medical devices. Oil and gas jobs in AB and SK were easy money - easy jobs, hire anyone off the street, train them yourself, give them enough perks to prevent them from running away to Texas, etc.

AB and SK have only themselves to blame for sleeping on the wheel for the last ten years. Canada under the conversatives the same. In reality, there are only two sectors in all of North America that are growing like oil and gas was five years ago, so if you are not in either one of them, you really need to knock someone else off their jobs through better skills + experience to gain yours.

Completely agree!
What are the two sectors you are talking about. One is definitely Real Estate. Second is Health care?
 
Yes because there are millions and millions of dollars of costs to bear to process these applications. -

Regardless, all immigrants are making an investment which total up to $millions which means the govt of Canada is generating revenue based on these fees even if it means letting in immigrants into the country on the basis of their foreign qualifications, foreign work experiences making them feel and marketing that they will be highly respected in Canada when ofcourse the reality on the ground is totally different.

What returns? You mean, in the savings accounts? When they get frozen due to FC issues? Or when the currency depreciates? You can invest your money anywhere in the world while sitting in Canada. That being said, Canadian real estate has been one of the best investment classes in the world in the last 15 years given the global risk/reward.

Yes, return my friend. If i am paying down a ton of money in terms of immigration fees, fees of acquiring help from immigration consultants, fees regarding medical tests, examinations and other associated costs, costs of travelling to Canada, bringing my life savings into the country, costs of settling down i.e. either buying a house or renting an apartment, costs of putting children in schools, costs associated with day to day living

If i am incurring all these costs on a daily basis but not getting a single interview call and there are no jobs for me even if my foreign qualifications, foreign work experiences are perfectly relevant, then what exactly am i getting in return for all these costs and expenditures?

Zero, zilch, nada. Compared to countries like Australia, US and even UK, immigrants get better returns for all their investments, costs, sacrifices compared to Canada.

Most of you what you state above is factually incorrect:

1. Canada is a democracy like the US. Employers can do whatever they want to hire the skills they need. Canadian oil and gas employers, for example, have recruited heavily in the past from the Middle East due to a lack of such skill base in Canada. They won't hire the locals for that reason. US is exactly the same. It does not allow or prevent anyone anywhere from hiring - other than discrimination based on age, religion, etc. - as in Canada.

2. Canada is much more diversified in immigrants than the US. Canada accepts ~300K new immigrants annually - about 1% of its population. US as whole issues 1 million green cards a year: ~0.3% of its population. Only 15% of the US green cards are issued for economic reasons, while ~60% of the Canadian immigrants are admitted due to the economic needs.

Diversity means squat if the diversified people are not being treated fairly and with economic respect. Diversity means squat if foreign qualified doctors, engineers, accountants, lawyers end up working as security guards, janitors, bus drivers, taxi drivers.

The US has a population of 300 million people plus, inspite of 9/11 and many other unfortunate incidents it still accepts immigrants from all over the world, even from muslim countries that are on their hit list. Canada in comparison has a meager population of 30 million. I am pretty sure that the total number of immigrants in the US will total up to more than the total number of immigrants in Canada even if the fraction of populations is different.

Just because a country is a democracy does not mean that there is no element of Govt control involved or the need for govt control to be involved. In the US this is not needed because the employers have the decency and ethical courtesy to actually embrace diversity in true spirit and accept foreign work experiences, foreign qualifications of immigrants while maintaining high standards as well at the same time.

Sadly Canada in comparison needs some sort of govt intervention to curtail the abusive practices of local employers for e.g. fines/penalties for rejecting qualified foreign immigrants, tax breaks, credits for hiring qualified foreign immigrants, breaks for meeting annual quotas of hiring qualified foreign immigrants, giving proper feedback to foreign immigrants. All these sort of things will go a long way towards helping improve the dramatic under employment situation most qualified foreign immigrants find themselves in.

Well, such a guy should ask himself that question BEFORE immigrating. He is, after all, immigrating into a country with a highly skilled labour force. He should expect competition. In fact, he should be glad that not everyone is able to hack this process resulting in a lower overall quality.

Yet, if people are lining up to immigrate, it means that they accept the risks and view the benefits of doing so much greater than the costs. More importantly, they understand the hard work needed to build a career in a new country.

This again is the classic Canadian biased mentality where the impression is given that if foreigners and immigrants are easily accepted into the system economically and socially it will result in lower standards. What exactly is so special about Canadian education and Canadian Work Experience that makes it more high quality compared to lets say American or European education and work experience?

I think some people do decide to immigrate and move here for the next generation and embrace the under employment and career sacrifices that they end up having to make in Canada. But does that change the fact it is biased and unfair and a basic violation of human rights?

That same thing is true for any local as well. That is the reality of today's economy; and if someone can't figure this out yet, they don't belong in today's workplace. You need to train, retrain, and retrain. MBA programs are perfect examples, but even at workplace, you need to relocate, get reassigned, and make sacrifices. If you feel 3-5 years is too long, then don't do it - do something else. Or, move to a country that accepts lower standards.

I, for one, am glad that the Canadian system doesn't allow anyone with any degree or any experience to operate on me if I get a heartstroke. I want that person to be trained in a system that doesn't compromise on standards.

It is not a reality in the American, European or Middle Eastern Economy. People can easily re-train while being embraced and given respect for their foreign qualifications, work experiences.

People all over the world relocate, make sacrifices without being told to go back to school and start all over again and that everything they have done in their life is utterly useless.

Again i ask you, what is so special about Canada's education, work experiences, systems that makes it of superior quality compared to the American system, European system, Middle eastern system? Why is that those lucky immigrants who without any Canadian education, work experience, the moment they break into the system end up comfortably outperforming their Canadian counter parts?

So Pakistani qualified doctors who move to Canada now don't have the experience, specialty and skill set to operate on you?

This is what i mentioned, it is one thing for a Canadian to have this attitude but for a Desi to behave more Canadian than Canadian with a fellow Desi is the more serious issue and a classic example of everything that has gone wrong with our Muslim Ummah.

If I am giving such advice to a struggling immigrant, I think I am being very helpful. Rather than showing them the unscrupulous shortcuts to life, I am giving them the real life's lesson. One that is much more likely to help them succeed.

Like I said, if you don't want to do the hard work and want to have everything offered to you on a plate, then either win a lottery or don't immigrate. This country is giving you benefits that you aren't paying a cent for. Someone else is. Someone who has (A) worked hard, (B) made money, and (C) paid taxes pays for your free schooling, OSAP interest, and free healthcare. As a new immigrant, if you don't have a job, you pay nothing. So, get off your lazy back, study some or work hard and then be successful like everyone else had to. Regardless of immigration or not.

A struggling new immigrant will struggle to buy a new iphone without doing the hard work needed for finding a job, sure. That new immigrant can still walk into any clinic to receive North-American standard healthcare for free, can still apply for social welfare, and can still attend some sort of school for free. In fact, for some types of professions where there are skill shortages, the taxes of the rest of the population are used to provide a second-career stipend - to pay for your living expenses too.

Explain to me what is so special about Canadian education, standards, work experiences that even someone like the famous Indian Google Engineers wife who went to the top Business school in Singapore and worked at the top investment banking firm in Singapore struggled to get a job in her field in Canada?

http://www.macleans.ca/economy/business/land-of-misfortune/

What is so special about the Canadian system that North American doctors and UK qualified PHD's are driving taxi's in Toronto?

Who are you and the country of Canada to tell these foreign qualified immigrants that there rightful just demands to be respected for their high quality foreign qualifications and work experiences acquired world wide is like demanding a short cut?

Calling a spade a spade in an anonymous online forum is an 'honorable' achievement. If you feel so strongly about it, why don't you raise this issue with the UN or another Human Rights organization? I mean, if this "discrimination based on skills and experience" is really a true issue, then I'm sure:
(A) No one will be lining up to apply for Canadian immigration;
(B) Your arguments will be getting propagated by all human rights activists around the globe; and
(C) Every immigrant will be rushing to get out of this country as seen through a dramatic decline in its population ranks.

Actually people have filed several petitions in courts, human rights organizations and there is some work being done about this

http://www.ohrc.on.ca/en/policy-removing-“canadian-experience”-barrier

http://www.thestar.com/news/queensp...rs_may_breach_ontarios_human_rights_code.html
 
Lol then i wouldn't support them,tbh conservatives can save the existing culture and life of a country but that's just imo.

But it is no longer that. That is the view in the east. This is the west. No care for aboriginals who were kicked of their lands, forced to accept whiteness and european practices. Still hasn't apologized. Till this day many aboriginals live in reserves where hot water doesn't come through their pipe and live in large crammed place. Nothing conservatism about conservatives, it is just "White people and friends of White people". White people = English/Scottish/Wales. Italians, Greek, Ukranians, Russians are not part of their clan. They are "lesser".
 
Exactly, its also a good place for people seeking asylum(USA is obviously better) considering they would had lost all in their country already.

USA is lame, immigrants and refugees get more care, more assistance here. There are programs that will help you with language, writing, reading and writing. In USA you don't get that unless it was ngo that provides these assistance to the newly arrived people. If you get sick in US, you are going to have to pay a lot more, where here it is free. USA is the worst place to compare. Like you said it is better for those who have lost or had nothing much back home. It is better for the younger generation and multiculturalism has been recognized nearly 40 years ago, many people don't recognize race much as older generation does.
 
Don't see why people migrating from countries with sub-par education systems like Pakistan and India should have their qualifications recognized in Canada. In fact, canadian employers don't even have the guarantee that these are legitimate qualifications and not fake degrees or ones obtained through favoritism. For an employer, it doesn't matter what the points system says, most third world qualifications are as good as trash. Of course, it's different for countries like Singapore and USA as [MENTION=5942]AlphaFighter[/MENTION] mentionned.
 
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was in toronto and quebec last year and i loooved quebec although i struggled communicating. luckily one of the people in our group could speak french.

didn't think much of the food though. lots of franchise food and coffee places just like in america.
 
Don't see why people migrating from countries with sub-par education systems like Pakistan and India should have their qualifications recognized in Canada. In fact, canadian employers don't even have the guarantee that these are legitimate qualifications and not fake degrees or ones obtained through favoritism. For an employer, it doesn't matter what the points system says, most third world qualifications are as good as trash. Of course, it's different for countries like Singapore and USA as [MENTION=5942]AlphaFighter[/MENTION] mentionned.

More rubbish.

Not all institutions, degrees from third world countries are trash.

Who says there is no guarantee, favoritism in Canada?

The point system should be very clear from the beginning, if the Canadian govt, Canadian employers and Canadian society in large feels that degrees in Pakistan and India are trash then the Canadian govt should not give any points.

How come these degrees are trash in Canada but not in Canada, UK or Australia?

I have met people from Harvard and Oxford in Canada who has faced Canadian experience barriers and have not received interview calls for months. Are their degrees trash as well?

I really hope that one day all these companies get taken to task by the govt and be instructed to get their act straight.
 
Where is the entitlement? Do you think people immigrate to Canada for free? People pay a lot of money to apply for visas, go through the process and wind up there affairs to come here. Then when they do come here, they invest their life savings before they deplete, the only real beneficiary is the govt and the country of Canada so far in this whole process. It was the Canadian govt which scammed these immigrants into granting them immigration on the points system leading them to believe that their skills, professional qualifications outside Canada were in high demand in Canada, if they were not then they should have refused them immigration in the first place, the fact they did not is what makes the whole immigration system a scam.



Why do you not feel any sympathy for them? Would you rather that they struggle for eternity in low paying survival jobs and continue to face eternal rejection in a country discriminating against them economically for no justified reasons at all? Why do these immigrants who were out of their fields for 4-5 years successfully manage to land a job in their fields in the US and Middle east? Is the problem with these immigrants or the country of Canada?

Do these immigrants not have the right to make the best decision for themselves based on their precarious circumstances where they cannot afford to remain under employed forever?



There you go my friend, that explains the Canadian Govt scam. Why is it allowing these immigrants into the country then taking money from them in the process based on their foreign qualifications and experience giving them the impression that their foreign skills and experiences are in high demand in the country?

Do you realize that some immigrants even go back to School in Canada and get local degrees, even local work experience but still struggle to get jobs in big organizations? That Muslim resume vs Local resume experiment is a classic example

You seek to enter Canada to start a new life and Canada provides you just that. They don't promise you a high paying job, because you studied your ass off back home. Canada wants well educated people who will be an asset to Canada. I don't want to sound like an a-hole but if you are moving to Canada you should have done research about your new country that you are going to spend rest of your life in, it makes sense doesn't it ? You might be asking "why the point system ?". It is a good question, the point system was established to welcome people based on their qualification and not based on race, religion, gender or sexuality. So if you are "qualified" you get into Canada, because you are "qualified" you aren't promised a life that you lived back home.
 
yes because there are millions and millions of dollars of costs to bear to process these applications.


What returns? You mean, in the savings accounts? When they get frozen due to fc issues? Or when the currency depreciates? You can invest your money anywhere in the world while sitting in canada. That being said, canadian real estate has been one of the best investment classes in the world in the last 15 years given the global risk/reward.


There is no quota for foreign qualified doctors. There is no quota for foreign qualified bankers. Or lawyers. Or administrative assistants. There are specific preferential quotas for trades-based skills due to severe lack of such skills in canada. Everyone else comes in based on the same rules. Read them here:
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/apply-who.asp

if you are a foreign-qualified doctor, you need to do your own research on where the opportunities are for your skills. Well before you decide whether to immigrate. Canada is not holding signs in pakistan enchanting 'doctors needed, this way please'.


Most of you what you state above is factually incorrect:

1. Canada is a democracy like the us. Employers can do whatever they want to hire the skills they need. Canadian oil and gas employers, for example, have recruited heavily in the past from the middle east due to a lack of such skill base in canada. They won't hire the locals for that reason. Us is exactly the same. It does not allow or prevent anyone anywhere from hiring - other than discrimination based on age, religion, etc. - as in canada.

2. Canada is much more diversified in immigrants than the us. Canada accepts ~300k new immigrants annually - about 1% of its population. Us as whole issues 1 million green cards a year: ~0.3% of its population. Only 15% of the us green cards are issued for economic reasons, while ~60% of the canadian immigrants are admitted due to the economic needs. See more at:
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/in-immigration-us-loses-out-to-canada-2013-10-18


well, such a guy should ask himself that question before immigrating. He is, after all, immigrating into a country with a highly skilled labour force. He should expect competition. In fact, he should be glad that not everyone is able to hack this process resulting in a lower overall quality.

Yet, if people are lining up to immigrate, it means that they accept the risks and view the benefits of doing so much greater than the costs. More importantly, they understand the hard work needed to build a career in a new country.


That same thing is true for any local as well. That is the reality of today's economy; and if someone can't figure this out yet, they don't belong in today's workplace. You need to train, retrain, and retrain. Mba programs are perfect examples, but even at workplace, you need to relocate, get reassigned, and make sacrifices. If you feel 3-5 years is too long, then don't do it - do something else. Or, move to a country that accepts lower standards.

I, for one, am glad that the canadian system doesn't allow anyone with any degree or any experience to operate on me if i get a heartstroke. I want that person to be trained in a system that doesn't compromise on standards.


If i am giving such advice to a struggling immigrant, i think i am being very helpful. Rather than showing them the unscrupulous shortcuts to life, i am giving them the real life's lesson. One that is much more likely to help them succeed.

Like i said, if you don't want to do the hard work and want to have everything offered to you on a plate, then either win a lottery or don't immigrate. This country is giving you benefits that you aren't paying a cent for. someone else is. Someone who has (a) worked hard, (b) made money, and (c) paid taxes pays for your free schooling, osap interest, and free healthcare. As a new immigrant, if you don't have a job, you pay nothing. So, get off your lazy back, study some or work hard and then be successful like everyone else had to. Regardless of immigration or not.

A struggling new immigrant will struggle to buy a new iphone without doing the hard work needed for finding a job, sure. That new immigrant can still walk into any clinic to receive north-american standard healthcare for free, can still apply for social welfare, and can still attend some sort of school for free. In fact, for some types of professions where there are skill shortages, the taxes of the rest of the population are used to provide a second-career stipend - to pay for your living expenses too.


Calling a spade a spade in an anonymous online forum is an 'honorable' achievement. If you feel so strongly about it, why don't you raise this issue with the un or another human rights organization? I mean, if this "discrimination based on skills and experience" is really a true issue, then i'm sure:
(a) no one will be lining up to apply for canadian immigration;
(b) your arguments will be getting propagated by all human rights activists around the globe; and
(c) every immigrant will be rushing to get out of this country as seen through a dramatic decline in its population ranks.


Then, next time quote one where it shows the use of an "immigrant" name vs a muslim name.

potw
 
Why would hospitals hire a doctor from Pakistan for whom it took 5 years to be a doctor when in Canada it takes 12 years and only the top and best students could ever get into medical schools ? I've seen couple of people from my own highschool who decided to go become a doctor in Paksitan because it is only 5 years(didn't believe that story initially) because they couldn't get into a good university here. Now even out of that good university only the best and most qualified students get into med school. You can't become a doctor because your parents told you to be, or you thought being a doctor would be a good career. You must be wanting to be a doctor since childhood and it should be the only aim. It is just like wanting to be a professional athlete without the natural talent but with sheer hard work. Don't think I want to be operated by a doctor who had spent 5 years after high school.
 
You seek to enter Canada to start a new life and Canada provides you just that. They don't promise you a high paying job, because you studied your ass off back home. Canada wants well educated people who will be an asset to Canada. I don't want to sound like an a-hole but if you are moving to Canada you should have done research about your new country that you are going to spend rest of your life in, it makes sense doesn't it ? You might be asking "why the point system ?". It is a good question, the point system was established to welcome people based on their qualification and not based on race, religion, gender or sexuality. So if you are "qualified" you get into Canada, because you are "qualified" you aren't promised a life that you lived back home.

The new life should be an even better life than the one you enjoyed in your previous home country.

Some immigrants man up and even return back to their home countries within a few months after seeing the ground realities of the new country. I think its also human nature because someone who is extremely highly qualified, someone who is extremely experienced and accomplished professionally and socially, even when he or she does his research about the Canadian experience barrier for immigrants in Canada, they tend to adopt the attitude, surely i can crack this as i speak very good fluent english, i have the education, experience, surely it can't be that bad. The sad part is that it indeed is that bad, it is always much worse than you initially envisioned.

This points system is where exactly the scam is my dear friend. Sure, i accept the argument that every country in the world has the right to have their own policies, systems, culture and even the right to protect their own indiginous population from foreign immigrants but then they should have the guts to be extremely transparent about it. Make the points system reflective of the ground realities in Canada. If foreign medical degrees, qualifications, experiences are not valued, in high demand in Canada then there should be no points for it. But if the govt is giving you a lot of points for medical degrees, foreign medical experiences to allow you to come into Canada but upon landing you are made to feel extremely unwanted by the society as a whole, then that is just a scam.

Mark my words this grotesque exploitation of foreign immigrants in Canada will bite the country really badly one day. As it is a lot of immigrants view Canada as a stepping stone for the passport to go to countries like the US, Australia, Middle East for better options and why shouldn't they? Everyone has the right to make the best decision for themselves at the end of the day depending on their circumstances, if the country of Canada is not accepting these immigrants economically then these Immigrants and future Canadian Citizens have the right to make use of their sacrifice of waiting it out for 4-5 years for the Passport and get what they truly deserve on merit in the US, UK, Australia or the Middle East.
 
[MENTION=5942]AlphaFighter[/MENTION] if you had been educated in Canada you would know that advantage you have over living in US. Canada does more to new comers than US, because you spent money coming here that doesn't mean you deserve all the flower garlands. It is like saying " I paid so much money for my college but the teacher didn't give me an A+". You knew what you were getting into. You wanted a better life, and you got yourself one of the best country in the world to live. If you aren't happy about being in this position, you can always go back (not to sound rude) but then you aren't because you found this life much better than where you lived, so you stayed here. Same goes to many others.
 
Why would hospitals hire a doctor from Pakistan for whom it took 5 years to be a doctor when in Canada it takes 12 years and only the top and best students could ever get into medical schools ? I've seen couple of people from my own highschool who decided to go become a doctor in Paksitan because it is only 5 years(didn't believe that story initially) because they couldn't get into a good university here. Now even out of that good university only the best and most qualified students get into med school. You can't become a doctor because your parents told you to be, or you thought being a doctor would be a good career. You must be wanting to be a doctor since childhood and it should be the only aim. It is just like wanting to be a professional athlete without the natural talent but with sheer hard work. Don't think I want to be operated by a doctor who had spent 5 years after high school.

From what I know 5 years is just M.B.B.S.. then you have another 5-7 years for specialisation. So the standard is pretty much the same.

A cousin of mine did MBBS in Islamabad and then moved to California, did his specialization from there and now earns $300/hr.. Granted he works as a lead surgeon in ER in a big hospital and the things he sees day in and day out most people won't be able to handle.
 
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