Will India become an average team once their legends retire?

[kron]

Odi and t20. However even despite this, they have not managed to replace Dhoni.

Dhoni as a batsmen is a bit overrated as he's mostly an Asian bully and outside Asia he's just okay, however theirs no denying his ability to finish games worldwide and the mantra of taking it deep is unmatched.

To top it off he transformed the indian side in his era, he was a fantastic leader, a fantastic captain and a fantastic finisher and Pant just doesn't replace that.

As I said India were very very lucky that they found Rohit and kohli straight after sehwag and Sachin.

The rest of their batters are just okay, Their class and reliable batters but their not atg or any of that.

Being a top side and a country with resources doesn't automatically mean that you'll just find atg's out of your hat.

Even if the likes of Gill, Sheryas, Jaiswal, Abhisheik, Arshdeep, Rinku Singh become atg's 10 years from now, it'll be extremely extremely difficult to match rohit and kohli who are in the upper echelons of ATG's and not the lower.

As for my gilchrist comment, I think people misunderstood. Yes Warner and Travis head are suitable replacements for gilchrist as an opener, however since his retirement Australia has been forced to waste an extra wicketkeeper no 7 slot in the likes of wade, Carrey, inglis etc who don't match up, whereas previously the likes of Bevan could occupy that slot.

For me only test credentials matter. Don't care about LOi tbh. Kohli failed plenty in odi. The younsgta beauties I am sure will be even better.

T20 is hit or miss. We will be ok.

 

[NishanKonar]

No he's not, Cummins cannot dream of getting a 4-8 in odi against a side featuring Sachin, gamguly, Laxman, Dravid etc etc.

He ain't even getting that against nambia.

Like I said - ur mindset is everyone who played 20 years back is automatically much better than any current day player.

Sunil Joshi once took 5-6 against South Africa. Shane Warne never did so. So Sunil Joshi > Shane Warne !. Thats how u sound like

 

[kron]

There will be a brief slump in India's fortunes much like how they felt after retirement of Fab 4. (Sachin/Laxman/Dravid/Sourav). THey recovered well. India's batting culture is still the same. Now they have addition of fast bowling culture. They will only get better. It is not like Steve smith and Jo Root will be playing till 100.

I have been through 8 0 and actually it was 10-1

In tests. So nothing can faze me. We will be fine.

 

[mominsaigol]

Like I said - ur mindset is everyone who played 20 years back is automatically much better than any current day player.

Sunil Joshi once took 5-6 against South Africa. Shane Warne never did so. So Sunil Joshi > Shane Warne !. Thats how u sound like

No you're assuming my mindset. Indian posters need to chill out on their team, they got thrashed in their own backyard on their own curated pitches that they rigged by possibly the weakest aussie team to ever play a final in a cup, one which was carrying the likes of smith as a passenger.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

No you're assuming my mindset. Indian posters need to chill out on their team, they got thrashed in their own backyard on their own curated pitches that they rigged by possibly the weakest aussie team to ever play a final in a cup, one which was carrying the likes of smith as a passenger.

Apart from final which match do you think we won bcoz of curating pitches?

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Considering that OP is usually wrong about most of the things, I am now even more sure that India won’t regress.

Still remember before 2023 world cup how OP was saying Fakhar was a mediocre bat and changed his tunes once Fakhar won that match vs Nz.

 

[mominsaigol]

Apart from final which match do you think we won bcoz of curating pitches?

All of them lol.

India in 2023 wc played in their home den and curated every pitch to suit their liking.

2024 and even 2025 will show that their not that special. They should have lost pakistan, Australia and Sa, they got very very lucky that they had bumrah for sa, and starc bowled rubbish againat rohit and was rubbish through the tournament. Pakistan was a bottle job but what can you expect with rizwan at the helm.

Rohit and Kohli are burnt cases now, the rest of their batters are average. It's really bumrah or bust

 

[mominsaigol]

Considering that OP is usually wrong about most of the things, I am now even more sure that India won’t regress.

Still remember before 2023 world cup how OP was saying Fakhar was a mediocre bat and changed his tunes once Fakhar won that match vs Nz.

I'm never wrong, it's just that you can't see beyond the lens of India because I'm gonna assume you're an Indian poster lol so country bias.

Also when did I say anything about fakhar being a medicore bat?

 

[Mesozoic]

Don't know why Indian posters here feel the need to argue so much with people whose cricketing IQ is as much as of a doormat lol.

We all know India has comfortably the largest talent pipeline coupled with a robust domestic structure and the best 'A team' programmes. Only desperate fools or trolls would think that we would have a massive downfall once 2-3 players retire. Ofcourse Pakistanis and Bangladeshis who are Indophobic by nature will find ways to keep their hopes alive re our cricketing decline but that doesn't mean anything in the real world. Real world doesn't run on emotions and blind wishes.

Just laugh at em, maybe pity their desperation and move on.

 

[mominsaigol]

Don't know why Indian posters here feel the need to argue so much with people whose cricketing IQ is as much as of a doormat lol.

We all know India has comfortably the largest talent pipeline coupled with a robust domestic structure and the best 'A team' programmes. Only desperate fools or trolls would think that we would have a massive downfall once 2-3 players retire. Ofcourse Pakistanis and Bangladeshis who are Indophobic by nature will find ways to keep their hopes alive re our cricketing decline but that doesn't mean anything in the real world. Real world doesn't run on emotions and blind wishes.

Just laugh at em, maybe pity their desperation and move on.

It's the opposite. It's just normal discussions that you guys turn into a war zone whenever you ever something that doesn't portray India as no 1.

I understand that Australia has frequently bullied you in odi and test and has been doing so for 20 years. Please calm down and bow to your superior nation.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

All of them lol.

India in 2023 wc played in their home den and curated every pitch to suit their liking.

2024 and even 2025 will show that their not that special. They should have lost pakistan, Australia and Sa, they got very very lucky that they had bumrah for sa, and starc bowled rubbish againat rohit and was rubbish through the tournament. Pakistan was a bottle job but what can you expect with rizwan at the helm.

Rohit and Kohli are burnt cases now, the rest of their batters are average. It's really bumrah or bust

All of them?
All of them were flat pitches barring the one vs England. Ironically that pitch suited England more than us but they still lost.

We were constantly making 300 + and bundling out opposition cheaply, even the semifinal vs Nz was on a flat deck and we won fair and square , how was that pitch rigged?

You need to provide logic to prove all these rumours, the only pitch which we curated was the final one and we lost yhat match comfortably.

 

[Mesozoic]

"But but Australia bullied you guys.. ".

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

It's the opposite. It's just normal discussions that you guys turn into a war zone whenever you ever something that doesn't portray India as no 1.


I understand that Australia has frequently bullied you in odi and test and has been doing so for 20 years. Please calm down and bow to your superior nation.

Australia vs India Test record is pretty much in our favour in the past 20 years, eveb in t20s we have eclipsed them.

In Odis they have bested us, will give you that.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

@mominsaigol Australia hasn’t won a BG trophy in the last 10 years and somehow they have been bullying us in test in last 20 years?
You are simply lying, thats why I said that you are usually wrong.

 

[mominsaigol]

All of them?
All of them were flat pitches barring the one vs England. Ironically that pitch suited England more than us but they still lost.

We were constantly making 300 + and bundling out opposition cheaply, even the semifinal vs Nz was on a flat deck and we won fair and square , how was that pitch rigged?

You need to provide logic to prove all these rumours, the only pitch which we curated was the final one and we lost yhat match comfortably.

How about you prove what I said about fakhar?

 

[kron]

Nobody is doubting McGrath. I myself was defending him on the other thread. I kept saying McGrath was hands down the best bowler of the 90s - ahead of Wasim Akram or Ambrose

My problem is this level of hyperbole. That he was untouchable & nobody comes close to him. And Cummins on current form is not that far of the mark from peak McGrath

Also I want to mention bumrah is the second greatest pacer from Asia of all time already. Longevity to end up on losing sides don't mean much. How many games can you win me? That's what matters. 2 3 away test series draws or wins in England and SA plus a wtc would seal it.

 

[kron]

Don't know why Indian posters here feel the need to argue so much with people whose cricketing IQ is as much as of a doormat lol.

We all know India has comfortably the largest talent pipeline coupled with a robust domestic structure and the best 'A team' programmes. Only desperate fools or trolls would think that we would have a massive downfall once 2-3 players retire. Ofcourse Pakistanis and Bangladeshis who are Indophobic by nature will find ways to keep their hopes alive re our cricketing decline but that doesn't mean anything in the real world. Real world doesn't run on emotions and blind wishes.

Just laugh at em, maybe pity their desperation and move on.

Besides we have experienced 8 0 drubbings in tests under dhoni. That would never happen under current management. They will be fired instantly for such pathetic performances. I am not concerned one bit about the future given I have experienced the lows of 0 9 drubbings.

This happened while we were odi reigning champions too lol.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Good luck pinning your hopes on an Australian side filled with the likes of McGurk, Hardie, Tanveer Sangha and Todd Murphy to stop India from winning future tournaments.

They do have guys like Oliver Davies etc. coming up. Many thought we would beat Australia in 2023 World Cup and that didn't turn out well for us

I'll never underestimate the Aussies or their production line of cricketers.

Even the not so gifted types tend to step it up big time.

 

[Mamoon]

I dont believe in nostalgia arguments. I will still say Sachin, Lara & KP are better than any present day test batters. Adam Gilchrist is better than any present day keeper batter. Shane Warne & Murali mogs every spinner. Waqar Younis had the most lethal yorker in cricket. Also Graham Thorpe was better than any present day England test batter. Martin Crowe was better than Kane Williamson

But no Bumrah is not a run of the mill bowler in front of McGrath. That's a gross exaggeration

Thorpe is absolutely not a better Test batsman than Root. It is not even close.

Root out-scores Thorpe 8/10 if they play in the same team.

Agreed with most of the rest, although KP is a little overhyped. Great impact player but you would expect more consistently from a top tier batsman.

Waqar’s yorkers were an outcome of unrestrained ball-tampering which wouldn’t have been possible in this era. Those banana yorkers were not possible with an undoctored ball.

Waqar in this era would have been a better version of Haris Rauf but nowhere near the amongst the best fast bowlers.

Cummins, Starc, Boult, Archer, Rabada, Hazelwood, Bumrah, Shami - all these pacers are better than Waqar.

Gilchrist would be the best today, although the gap would be smaller because of guys like De Kock, Buttler, Pant etc., but he would still be the best especially in Test cricket.

Warne is miles better than any spinner today. No debate whatsoever. Muralitharan as well if his chucking would have been facilitated which seems unlikely.

Crowe is definitely better than Williamson who is by far the most overrated batsman of this generation.

 

[mominsaigol]

True and those people are desi fan's who are not even supporting own teams because they are pathetic .so they chose Australia to undermine Indian team lol

I always supported Australia. This country pride thing is something only applicable to you.

If I cared about Pakistan, I wouldn't have left it. The country is dead and in a mess

 

[FearlessRoar]

Warning:

Please refrain from making personal attacks

 

[mominsaigol]

Thorpe is absolutely not a better Test batsman than Root. It is not even close.

Root out-scores Thorpe 8/10 if they play in the same team.

Agreed with most of the rest, although KP is a little overhyped. Great impact player but you would expect more consistently from a top tier batsman.

Waqar’s yorkers were an outcome of unrestrained ball-tampering which wouldn’t have been possible in this era. Those banana yorkers were not possible with an undoctored ball.

Waqar in this era would have been a better version of Haris Rauf but nowhere near the amongst the best fast bowlers.

Cummins, Starc, Boult, Archer, Rabada, Hazelwood, Bumrah, Shami - all these pacers are better than Waqar.

Gilchrist would be the best today, although the gap would be smaller because of guys like De Kock, Buttler, Pant etc., but he would still be the best especially in Test cricket.

Warne is miles better than any spinner today. No debate whatsoever. Muralitharan as well if his chucking would have been facilitated which seems unlikely.

Crowe is definitely better than Williamson who is by far the most overrated batsman of this generation.

Prime Starc or current?

Current is rubbish, 2015 starc is a different beast though, his bowling against nz was killer

 

[CrIc_Mystique]

Ind biggest leverage is their 1.5 billion population, although it is detrimental for other facets.

Aside from Kholi, Rohit, Bumrah, Jadeja and Ashwin is also their ATG players.

LOL every time India's population is mentioned as the 'leverage' or cause that india do well in cricket or other facets.
Why dont you apply the same logic to your own side and find out why you do not make the semi finals of each ICC tournament, be the 8th on the Olympics medals tally, win every bronze medal in every event in the Commonwealth games and be the 4th on the medals board of every Asian games. The same applies to 'certain other countries' fans as well who peddle this myth of us doing well just because - 'oh, they have a massive population and hence they win'

 

[mominsaigol]

LOL every time India's population is mentioned as the 'leverage' or cause that india do well in cricket or other facets.
Why dont you apply the same logic to your own side and find out why you do not make the semi finals of each ICC tournament, be the 8th on the Olympics medals tally, win every bronze medal in every event in the Commonwealth games and be the 4th on the medals board of every Asian games. The same applies to 'certain other countries' fans as well who peddle this myth of us doing well just because - 'oh, they have a massive population and hence they win'

Those countries don't have the 5th largest economy to back em

 

[FearlessRoar]

Warning:

Please refrain from making personal attacks

Please pay attention to it

 

[Rajdeep]

India will never be a poor team considering the strong domestic structure we have. If anything, the so called legends like Kohli and Rohit are almost a liability to the team and playing on pure reputation. There are plenty of young, hungry and able batters waiting in the pipeline to replace them. We had to drop players like Gill, Rinku and Jaiswal to accommodate Kohli/Rohit as opener in the latest T20 WC shows that we have problem of plenty and not the other way around. Players like KL & Shreyas don't get to play who will be a regular starters in most teams around the world. India will be mid tier team when likes of Kohli & Rohit retires is least of our worries.

 

[CrIc_Mystique]

Those countries don't have the 5th largest economy to back em

Then surely the matter between one's ear's, sheer hard work, determination, innovation, motivation, exporting ones brands by make such good products, risk taking ability, any such other factors others might wanna add is the cause of the 5th largest economy....are you saying the 'those countries' lack them in spades?

 

[mominsaigol]

Then surely the matter between one's ear's, sheer hard work, determination, innovation, motivation, exporting ones brands by make such good products, risk taking ability, any such other factors others might wanna add is the cause of the 5th largest economy....are you saying the 'those countries' lack them in spades?

They lack money and resources yes

 

[CrIc_Mystique]

Po

They lack money and resources yes

Point taken.

As an indian i'd go as far to say we hav'nt done justice vis-a vis wins in all formats, with the teams and facilities we have, should've done much better. Maybe its all turning now and will improve and result in more wins...lets see

 

[mominsaigol]

Po

Point taken.

As an indian i'd go as far to say we hav'nt done justice vis-a vis wins in all formats, with the teams and facilities we have, should've done much better. Maybe its all turning now and will improve and result in more wins...lets see

India has the world's 5th largest economy. They have the world's 3rd nost no of billionaires, world's 2nd most industries related to economic prosperity like reality tv, Bollywood etc etc and a bunch of other stuff.

Their quite literally Asian America at this point. Compared to Bangladesh it isn't fair lol. One system is clearly superior to the other.

Human beings are products of their genetics and enviroment at the end of the day with 90% being enviroment

 

[gazza619]

No matter what, there will never be another Bumrah & Hitman.

 

[CrIc_Mystique]

India has the world's 5th largest economy. They have the world's 3rd nost no of billionaires, world's 2nd most industries related to economic prosperity like reality tv, Bollywood etc etc and a bunch of other stuff.

Their quite literally Asian America at this point. Compared to Bangladesh it isn't fair lol. One system is clearly superior to the other.

Human beings are products of their genetics and enviroment at the end of the day with 90% being enviroment

All i will say is remove the turnover gained from Bollywood, reality TV, our economy will take a hit but only take a slight hit. Fact is Indian products in a lot of fields sell...world wide....it just ain't bollywood that is driving our econymy.

 

[mominsaigol]

All i will say is remove the turnover gained from Bollywood, reality TV, our economy will take a hit but only take a slight hit. Fact is Indian products in a lot of fields sell...world wide....it just ain't bollywood that is driving our econymy.

I never said that. I even said India has the 2nd most of billionaires after the US.

Now think carefully, what do billionaires own?

 

[Nikhil_cric]

No matter what, there will never be another Bumrah & Hitman.

Agreed. I just hope we can at least produce Babar/Abdullah Shafique level batters so that we don't become complete minnows.

 

[CrIc_Mystique]

No matter what, there will never be another Bumrah & Hitman.

can't say 'never' ....in the history of cricket there always was improvement....all said never another sachin - but big chance Joe Root will break his records, Never was also said about McGrath -but Anderson went past...maybe some young kid out there is already born and swinging a bat or sending down some pearlers... might turn out so good that people forget these two....

 

[The Bald Eagle]

India will suffer badly the day Bumrah will retire

 

[captain.hansolo]

Well the thing is Rohit and Kohli changed the game and then the likes of Bumrah came along.

The thing is, even top teams like Australia have yet to find another keeper like giclhrist or another bowler like mcgrath.

The absence of Rohit and kohli will defo impact.

If you happen to have viewed the baseball movie ‘Moneyball’ you might gain insight into how India is evolving. Instead of finding a replacement for Sehwag and Tendulkar, they have been replaced in the aggregate. Between the top six batsmen then aggregate runs scored is comparable to the aggregate runs scored between the top six wickets when Tendulkar and Sehwag were operating, or Tendulkar and Dravid when examining tests. Add to that a superior bowling department and it has led to the team’s dominance.

There is no reason why the same recipe won’t continue to work.

 

[mominsaigol]

Agreed. I just hope we can at least produce Babar/Abdullah Shafique level batters so that we don't become complete minnows.

You're the only Indian poster who isn't insane when it comes to their team.

Before this turned into a crap show, the whole point of the argument was that Hitman, Kohli, Bumrah are extremely high tier even for Indian standards.

New Kohli's, And hitman's don't just drop from the sky.

But apparently anything below hero worship results in country level insults sigh.

Regardless, I don't think India will become a minnow, but I do think they'll undergo a transition phase like in 2012

 

[Nikhil_cric]

You're the only Indian poster who isn't insane when it comes to their team.

Before this turned into a crap show, the whole point of the argument was that Hitman, Kohli, Bumrah are extremely high tier even for Indian standards.

New Kohli's, And hitman's don't just drop from the sky.

But apparently anything below hero worship results in country level insults sigh.

Regardless, I don't think India will become a minnow, but I do think they'll undergo a transition phase like in 2012

I think there's a slight suggestion by some(not you) that we can never produce another Rohit or Bumrah.

Same things were said back in 2011 and we did alright.

If will be tough to replace these players, no doubt

But we will have to wait and see.

Look at brother @The Bald Eagle posting above. He is almost willing us to be mediocre after Bumrah and been at it for quite some time

 

[mominsaigol]

If you happen to have viewed the baseball movie ‘Moneyball’ you might gain insight into how India is evolving. Instead of finding a replacement for Sehwag and Tendulkar, they have been replaced in the aggregate. Between the top six batsmen then aggregate runs scored is comparable to the aggregate runs scored between the top six wickets when Tendulkar and Sehwag were operating, or Tendulkar and Dravid when examining tests. Add to that a superior bowling department and it has led to the team’s dominance.

There is no reason why the same recipe won’t continue to work.

That's fine, I don't mind this, my issue is the posters earlier who went full on frenzy mode because irrespective of posts they just wanna hear the words India no 1, Sachin God, etc etc.

 

[mominsaigol]

I think there's a slight suggestion by some(not you) that we can never produce another Rohit or Bumrah.

Same things were said back in 2011 and we did alright.

If will be tough to replace these players, no doubt

But we will have to wait and see.

Look at brother @The Bald Eagle posting above. He is almost willing us to be mediocre after Bumrah and been at it for quite some time

I don't think India is fading away. They'll dominate for a long time, However if a better player then kohli and rohit were to emerge, they'd have emerged as of now.

bcci isn't on a clock saying yup, rohit and kohli will retire and only them we'll find better or equivalent players to these 2 lol.

 

[RexRex]

We had to drop players like Gill, Rinku and Jaiswal to accommodate Kohli/Rohit as opener in the latest T20 WC shows that we have problem of plenty and not the other way around.

Kohli is jealous of Gill it seems. Check this out .. lol

 

[Katwalindian]

SL are not minnows. Kamindu Mendis is better than every batsman in Pakistan

Yeah kamindu mendis, kusal mendis, dinesh chandimal, de silva, their batting line up is solid

 

[Nikhil_cric]

I don't think India is fading away. They'll dominate for a long time, However if a better player then kohli and rohit were to emerge, they'd have emerged as of now.

bcci isn't on a clock saying yup, rohit and kohli will retire and only them we'll find better or equivalent players to these 2 lol.

Rohit became the Rohit of today after playing 6 years of international cricket. Even then, the current version really only emerged a couple of years ago.

 

[mominsaigol]

Rohit became the Rohit of today after playing 6 years of international cricket. Even then, the current version really only emerged a couple of years ago.

I'm aware of rohit, however he was genuinely a good player and was improving even during those days. Bcci missed a trick by never trying him as an opener for those years, but understandable as sehwag and Sachin were irreraplacable at the time.

However yes I agree, no one actually believed that rohit would end up becoming this good.

Kohli on the other hand was born a star ever since his 2008 under 19 days lol. He was destined to be an atg.

However just because this happened once doesn't mean it'll automatically happen again.

India has still yet to find an opener better or equivalent to Sachin btw. The likes of dhawan, Gill, Jaiswal don't compare

 

[Dhakar Pola]

India, like Australia, now has a system in place that is capable of producing quality cricketers decade after decade. This robust infrastructure ensures that India will not be an average team. However, if India were ever to reach the heights of the West Indies team of the 1970s and 1980s, or the Australian team of the 2000s, there is a possibility that, upon the retirement of such a golden generation, India might appear vulnerable. This is akin to how Australia sometimes seems less dominant compared to their 2000s team while despite this, Australia remains a top-tier team in cricket. Similarly, because of its solid system, India is will always be a great team(like the current australia) and unlikely to ever resemble the current state of Pakistan’s team, which is struggling.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

I think there's a slight suggestion by some(not you) that we can never produce another Rohit or Bumrah.

Same things were said back in 2011 and we did alright.

If will be tough to replace these players, no doubt

But we will have to wait and see.

Look at brother @The Bald Eagle posting above. He is almost willing us to be mediocre after Bumrah and been at it for quite some time

Let's see although the recent ICC T20 WC showed that whether it be win against Pak or SA. Bumrah was your main guy

 

[jeetu]

Its the fate of every team when top stars suddenly goes.
Some examples - Australia in mid 80's after Chappell , Lillee , Marsh etc were gone. It took Border some time to convert them back into fighting unit.

Replacement players can pull of surprise. Sometimes players came out of the blue to become great. There was a famous thread here ridiculing Steve Smith as one of the worst batman of all time when he started. "Sir" Jadeja thread was another such gem.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Let's see although the recent ICC T20 WC showed that whether it be win against Pak or SA. Bumrah was your main guy

1992 World Cup was won by Akram S your main bowler. So unless you find Akram 92 version , you'll never win another ODI World Cup?

 

[Ahmed216]

Yeah kamindu mendis, kusal mendis, dinesh chandimal, de silva, their batting line up is solid

The kind of innings Nissanka played today, I never expect to see a Pakistani batsman playing like this in England again

 

[Vikram1989]

Kohli on the other hand was born a star ever since his 2008 under 19 days lol. He was destined to be an atg.

India has still yet to find an opener better or equivalent to Sachin btw. The likes of dhawan, Gill, Jaiswal don't compare

Jaiswal scored 700 runs in eng series and more than 280 runs than the second leading scorer.He scored double centuries in first innings and second innings when things were tough.He missed a third as he's taken things for granted.He had sr ,average,centuries more than head in t20s .That guy is destined for greatness. Sai Sudharshan played against burger on spicy pitches in south Africa and scored brilliant half centuries where every one else struggled from both teams.He plays at different positions for each team (Tamilnadu, ind A, Surrey) and scored centuries in postions in test matches (in first class).He started playing 4 years ago. Aswin marked him to be a next great .Rohit avg was 28 after 84 odis and no one thought how good he will be

 

[kron]

I think there's a slight suggestion by some(not you) that we can never produce another Rohit or Bumrah.

Same things were said back in 2011 and we did alright.

If will be tough to replace these players, no doubt

But we will have to wait and see.

Look at brother @The Bald Eagle posting above. He is almost willing us to be mediocre after Bumrah and been at it for quite some time

bumrah only the beginning. bowlers coming through will be even better in the future. but yes bumrah is one of a kind.

 

[jnaveen1980]

People forget how much time it took Rohit to shine in world cricket. He failed in several batting positions for years before MSD promoted him as opener. Infact his World T20 record was abysmal until this year. Rishabh Pant already played crucial roles in historical wins and draws. India beat Australia 2-0 in Australia after Kohli left. ONly loss was when India had Kohli was with them. In the remaining 3 tests India won 2-0 without Kohli. Decider was won without Kohli, Bumrah, ashwin, Jadeja. Also most recently India won 4-1 against England without Kohli. In 2022 after Indian team left for world cup, India's B team beat full strength South African side.India's problem will always be balance which is provided by Hardik Pandya. When he goes missing India loses a batsman or bowler. That is what happened in 2023 final. India lost Hardik. ALso foolishly they backed SKY instead of Jaiswal. India always have batsmen. Bowlers are harder to replace. Bumrah in particular. India has replaced Ishant and Umesh gradually.

If India which entered 5 under-19 finals in a row winning 2 of them struggle to handle transition imagine the plight of other teams.

 

[ask_analyse_act]

Sri Lanka was once a jam packed team that was not to be trifled with. The country which had once produced the likes of Jaysuria, Kumar Sangakara, Aravindra, Malinga, Murli, Dilshan, Tharanga has recently faded away and more or less become a minnow, So much so that they won't even get to feature in this addition of the Champions Trophy.

In the case of India, we have seen how they've struggled to find a suitable replacement for Yuvi Singh, and while the likes of Pandya have stepped up, it's clear as day that India has yet to find a suitable replacement for one of their greatest allrounders of all time.

Currently India's star players Rohit and Kohli are on the edge of Retirement. And While Bumrah and Shami have a few years left in the tank(Bumrah more so, Shami less so),

Do you think India will lose its era of Dominance (Excluding final chokes) after their legends retire?

Atm I really can't see the likes of Abisheikh, Gill, Jaiswal, sheryas and many others ever match up to Rohit or Kohli. India is a talented nation however even for their high standards, they were extremely lucky to find someone like rohit and kohli after the likes of sehwag and Sachin retired.

By no means do I think that India will become a minnow, however i do think that Bumrah, Rohit and Kohli are next level even for their standards and finding a replacement will be next to impossible.

They would still beat Pak in ODI WC matches.. Pakistan will continue to dream to put a stop for this tussle...

Look at the quality of players coming through for India, they are not selected from IPL... The emphasize is on playing red ball cricket tournaments... Look how Ishan Kishan was disciplined to play red ball cricket to earn a spot in the side... His arrogance was put to bed completely when they won the world T2O without him , Gill and even Jaiswal (couldnt get a game), that is the message they wanna send across to the youngsters out there....

India will go through this phase easily not making that much of a fuss like Pak or Srl saying for decades that they are trying , its a new team , young team and learning from their mistakes, same old shxt..

 

[BDfanforever]

LOL every time India's population is mentioned as the 'leverage' or cause that india do well in cricket or other facets.
Why dont you apply the same logic to your own side and find out why you do not make the semi finals of each ICC tournament, be the 8th on the Olympics medals tally, win every bronze medal in every event in the Commonwealth games and be the 4th on the medals board of every Asian games. The same applies to 'certain other countries' fans as well who peddle this myth of us doing well just because - 'oh, they have a massive population and hence they win'

I am not sure why you are getting riled up. I never said whenever India wins its mainly due to large population base. I also have no idea what are Asian games, or did you meant to say Olympics?

 

[NishanKonar]

Thorpe is absolutely not a better Test batsman than Root. It is not even close.

Root out-scores Thorpe 8/10 if they play in the same team.

Agreed with most of the rest, although KP is a little overhyped. Great impact player but you would expect more consistently from a top tier batsman.

Waqar’s yorkers were an outcome of unrestrained ball-tampering which wouldn’t have been possible in this era. Those banana yorkers were not possible with an undoctored ball.

Waqar in this era would have been a better version of Haris Rauf but nowhere near the amongst the best fast bowlers.

Cummins, Starc, Boult, Archer, Rabada, Hazelwood, Bumrah, Shami - all these pacers are better than Waqar.

Gilchrist would be the best today, although the gap would be smaller because of guys like De Kock, Buttler, Pant etc., but he would still be the best especially in Test cricket.

Warne is miles better than any spinner today. No debate whatsoever. Muralitharan as well if his chucking would have been facilitated which seems unlikely.

Crowe is definitely better than Williamson who is by far the most overrated batsman of this generation.

Agree with most of the observations but graham Thorpe was very underrated. I generally check a batter's performance against the best of his era - Thorpe averaged 46 against Australia & 45 against South Africa - the 2 best bowling attacks of his era. Also 45 average in 90s is equivalent to 50 today

Waqar Younis did benefit from ball tampering but his Yorkers had both extreme pace & pinpoint accuracy. He bowled them at 150 kph right at the toes of batters with decent consistency. Like Bumrah / Malinga but with 5 kph of extra pace. So credit to him for that

U are right about Murali but given he was never caught chucking conclusively unlike say Ajmal / Sunil Narine - its difficult to judge

 

[NishanKonar]

People forget how much time it took Rohit to shine in world cricket. He failed in several batting positions for years before MSD promoted him as opener. Infact his World T20 record was abysmal until this year. Rishabh Pant already played crucial roles in historical wins and draws. India beat Australia 2-0 in Australia after Kohli left. ONly loss was when India had Kohli was with them. In the remaining 3 tests India won 2-0 without Kohli. Decider was won without Kohli, Bumrah, ashwin, Jadeja. Also most recently India won 4-1 against England without Kohli. In 2022 after Indian team left for world cup, India's B team beat full strength South African side.India's problem will always be balance which is provided by Hardik Pandya. When he goes missing India loses a batsman or bowler. That is what happened in 2023 final. India lost Hardik. ALso foolishly they backed SKY instead of Jaiswal. India always have batsmen. Bowlers are harder to replace. Bumrah in particular. India has replaced Ishant and Umesh gradually.

If India which entered 5 under-19 finals in a row winning 2 of them struggle to handle transition imagine the plight of other teams.

This is the thing. Its not just about talent but also aptitude & dedicatin

In 2013 Rohit Sharma was meme batter - more famous as " 2 minute noodle " batter. From 2018 onwards he was the No1 batter for India in white ball cricket - overtaking Kohli.

In 2017 Bumrah was funny action bowler who wud fade away after his novelty wore off. In 2019 he was India's ( & argulably the world's) premier bowler in all 3 formats

U never know how things turn out

ps : In 2022 Babar Azam was being hailed as Bradman 2.0 Now in 2024 we all know ..........

 

[jnaveen1980]

This is the thing. Its not just about talent but also aptitude & dedicatin

In 2013 Rohit Sharma was meme batter - more famous as " 2 minute noodle " batter. From 2018 onwards he was the No1 batter for India in white ball cricket - overtaking Kohli.

In 2017 Bumrah was funny action bowler who wud fade away after his novelty wore off. In 2019 he was India's ( & argulably the world's) premier bowler in all 3 formats

U never know how things turn out

ps : In 2022 Babar Azam was being hailed as Bradman 2.0 Now in 2024 we all know ..........

Going by the Indian history you hype a player or two then you see a completely unknown player coming in and lighting up. Won't be any different in the coming years. Gelling factor is the only one that will not allow India to transition smoothly. once they identify a core group the gelling will take care of itself. India will start producing consistent results.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

You're the only Indian poster who isn't insane when it comes to their team.

Before this turned into a crap show, the whole point of the argument was that Hitman, Kohli, Bumrah are extremely high tier even for Indian standards.

New Kohli's, And hitman's don't just drop from the sky.

But apparently anything below hero worship results in country level insults sigh.

Regardless, I don't think India will become a minnow, but I do think they'll undergo a transition phase like in 2012

Just rest it dude.
Saying that Australia has bested us in tests in last 20 years has nothing to do with your opening post. It’s you who turned this into a show by stating lies and also accusing India of rigging each and every pitch.

Also Foolish statements like we won against Aus because Starc was horrible throughout the tournament, isn’t it obvious that some players will perform badly if a team is losing, didnt Kohli also fail throughout the tournament except the finals, what sort of an excuse was that?

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Agree with most of the observations but graham Thorpe was very underrated. I generally check a batter's performance against the best of his era - Thorpe averaged 46 against Australia & 45 against South Africa - the 2 best bowling attacks of his era. Also 45 average in 90s is equivalent to 50 today

Waqar Younis did benefit from ball tampering but his Yorkers had both extreme pace & pinpoint accuracy. He bowled them at 150 kph right at the toes of batters with decent consistency. Like Bumrah / Malinga but with 5 kph of extra pace. So credit to him for that

U are right about Murali but given he was never caught chucking conclusively unlike say Ajmal / Sunil Narine - its difficult to judge

If baating average of 45 in 90s is equivalent to 50 today , then bowling average of 23 in 90s would be comparable to 26-27 in this era, amirite? Or does this argument applies only on one side so that you can somehow prove your point?

 

[NishanKonar]

If baating average of 45 in 90s is equivalent to 50 today , then bowling average of 23 in 90s would be comparable to 26-27 in this era, amirite? Or does this argument applies only on one side so that you can somehow prove your point?

Yes u are correct. That's why Bumrah's test average of 20.7 is more insane - given higher scoring rates today than in the 90s. Its far superior to McGrath's 21.6 or Malcolm Marshall's 20.9 bcoz they played in an era when average of 40 was gold standard

For spinners however its become bit easier to take wickets - thanks to DRS. So in their case its evened out

 

[charlie007]

Kohli is jealous of Gill it seems. Check this out .. lol

I hope you know this was a deep fake video. Now, even I create videos in people’s voices and troll my friends, it has become very easy using AI to reproduce any voice and use a text to speech software to say whatever you want them to say. Don’t believe everything you read or hear on the internet these days.

 

[Mamoon]

Prime Starc or current?

Current is rubbish, 2015 starc is a different beast though, his bowling against nz was killer

Prime Starc and current who?

Starc is on his last legs right now, but prime Starc is the best ever lefty quick after Wasim Akram.

 

[JaDed]

India will suffer badly the day Bumrah will retire

Heard the same for Sachin, Sehwag, Yuvi, Msd, Kohli -Rohit and now Bumrah all on this forum itself.
MSD was mentioned many times after our 2021 loss.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Heard the same for Sachin, Sehwag, Yuvi, Msd, Kohli -Rohit and now Bumrah all on this forum itself.
MSD was mentioned many times after our 2021 loss.

Yep. Especially MSD. How we will never be even decent in ODIs without MSD when many of us wanted him dropped .

 

[kron]

Yes u are correct. That's why Bumrah's test average of 20.7 is more insane - given higher scoring rates today than in the 90s. Its far superior to McGrath's 21.6 or Malcolm Marshall's 20.9 bcoz they played in an era when average of 40 was gold standard

For spinners however its become bit easier to take wickets - thanks to DRS. So in their case its evened out

If bumrah retires with 23 to 24 average that's as good as 20 to 21 in 90s era.

 

[mominsaigol]

If bumrah retires with 23 to 24 average that's as good as 20 to 21 in 90s era.

No one denies bumrah isn't quality. It's just Indian obsession. First Sachin is the abu and now bumrah has to be shoved down people's throats.

Everyone has lost it of they think bumrah is > mcgrath

 

[viveks]

In ODI it's unlikely that they will struggle, they really haven't struggled in ODIs for a long time despite many changes.

In Tests, they are unlikely to have the same level of home dominance without Ashwin and Jadeja, but they are probably still going to dominate at home with other spinners/pacers. Away from home without Shami and Bumrah they will probably initially struggle but get through it. It's probable that they will still produce good pacers, but it's not a certainty as this is the first time in India's history that they will have to replace a quality pace attack

 

[Dr_Bassim]

Bumrah is good but nowhere close to Mcgrath who I rate as top 5 bowlers of all time.

Bumrah can get there, but not yet.

 

[mominsaigol]

Bumrah is good but nowhere close to Mcgrath who I rate as top 5 bowlers of all time.

Bumrah can get there, but not yet.

Bumrah won't get their. The likes of Garner, mcgrath etc are too high.

Bumrah can reach maybe wasim akram. It'll be difficult to surpass wasim in wickets but in impact he might get their.

Mcgrath is next level

 

[Buffet]

Bumrah won't get their. The likes of Garner, mcgrath etc are too high.

Bumrah can reach maybe wasim akram. It'll be difficult to surpass wasim in wickets but in impact he might get their.

Mcgrath is next level

No bowler will never take over McGrath or Wasim in number of wickets, but come on, McGrath was not some mythical figures that some bowlers can't overtake him in impact.

For example if you take away wins against good sides and McGrath's contrbution. Example is not to prove that Bumrah is better than Mcgrath. He has a long way to go there because longevity counts for a lot.

The top 4 opposition team during McGrath's career were India, SA, Pak and WI. Yah WI declined but they were still the strongest 4 in his over all career.


McGrath contributions in Away wins with ATG team behind him against top 4 sides: 4 5-fers and 68 wickets in a very long career.






Bumrah's contributions in win agaisnt top 4 oppositions ( Aus, SA, Eng, NZ ) : 4 5-fers and 55 wickets.




As far as having an imapct in strong opposition's den, Bumrah may take over McGrath because he will need few more of match changing spells. Now it's not easy to have those spells because even best of the best like McGrath has just 4 5-fers and 68 wickets in wins despite having such a long career and despite having backing of ATG team. So , no guaranty that Bumrah will be able to produce more spells like what he has done so far.

It does not prove that Bumrah is better bowler than McGrath or become a better bowler. But overtaking McGrath when it comes to impact in test? Sure. It's a possibility.

This was just an example and McGrath impact was not limited to just winning matches agasint 4 strongest oppositons in their den in the test format. But that's the ultimate test of champion bowlers. Bowl match changing spells in strong oposition's den in test format. Tons of bowlers have done at home and tons of bowlers bully weak oppositions.

I personaly don't think that Mcgrath will be overtaken as a bowler because he was so good for so long in both formats. Longevity counts for a lot.

 

[Buffet]

If anyone thinks that current teams are not strong then just to point it out, McGrath has 4 5-fers in wins againt top 4 oppositions in their den. 3 out of 4 came agaisnt weak WI batting line up. WI batting unit after mid 90s was not that strong and that's why Lara has so few tons in win despite having ATG bowlers with him.

It simply shows how hard it is to bowl a match changing spells against a strong batting line up in their den. That's why I rate Steyn very high and that's why I rate Bumrah high despite having such a short career. Extremely high impact bowlers in test format. Does not mean that I rate Bumrah higher than the likes of Steyn, McGrath or Wasim right now.

 

[Buffet]

Imagine if an Asian pacer takes grand total of 1 5-fer outside Asia in the test format and all of us go gaga over him. It will be shocking, right?

That's what McGrath did in Asia. He had 30 tries and he took just 1 5-fer and that 5-fer was not in win. All that when he had ATG Aus side backing him.

So yaah, McGrath was the best bowler for me in the last 35 years and I saw him bowl, but let's not make him some mythical bowler with skills to do equally well in all conditions with the same outsized impact. This is test and in ODI, he lacked yorkers and that was problem at times. Still the best all format bowler for me in history.

 

[kron]

No one denies bumrah isn't quality. It's just Indian obsession. First Sachin is the abu and now bumrah has to be shoved down people's throats.

Everyone has lost it of they think bumrah is > mcgrath

I still think mcgrath is the best ever.

 

[mominsaigol]

I still think mcgrath is the best ever.

Their a few that I think are greater and are underrated.

For example Joel Garner could consistency bowl a similar line and length however his line and length was far far more lethal then mchrath considering the height that it was bowled at and the extremly awkward center of the chest angle that It was covered 24/7.

But mcgrath is top 5. As I said Indians have completly lost it, but then again I'm not suprised. Their advocating a 2024 India with kohli and rohit on their last legs followed by the likes of dead weight like dube and jadeja to go March onto battle field against 2003 Australia

 

[Buffet]

Their a few that I think are greater and are underrated.

For example Joel Garner could consistency bowl a similar line and length however his line and length was far far more lethal then mchrath considering the height that it was bowled at and the extremly awkward center of the chest angle that It was covered 24/7.

Garner potentially better than McGrath?

Nah, he played just 3 tests in Asia. Can't rate a bowler that high unless they have played in different conditions with enough sample size.

Now if you say Marshall in test then sure, but he is already rated high by most fans in test format. In ODI, he does not have a good record so won't compete for a top spot as a all format bowler, but he is in most fan's list as top test bowler.

 

[mominsaigol]

Garner potentially better than McGrath?

Nah, he played just 3 tests in Asia. Can't rate a bowler that high unless they have played in different conditions with enough sample size.

Now if you say Marshall in test then sure, but he is already rated high by most fans in test format. In ODI, he does not have a good record so won't compete for a top spot as a all format bowler, but he is in most fan's list as top test bowler.

Agree to disagree. I don't go by stats like others.

 

[Buffet]

Agree to disagree. I don't go by stats like others.

But you got to have actual performance specially if contention for being better than McGrath.

You don't have to go by raw stats and simply say that some one with 22 avg is superior to some one with 24. That will be ridiculous. You will always see how those averages were achieved and where they were achieved. How many match changing spells and where etc... Now all that is not needed if you have seen entire career of players. I did not see Garner playing live. I only saw footage and I can only see stats.

Now without actual performances, it becomes very hard to justify an opinion. Garner was very good, that's for sure.

As you said, agree to disagree.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Why is Mcgrath all over the place lol

 

[BouncerGuy]

It depends on who you guys are calling the legends. KOHLI+ROHIT absence will be a huge set back and we have already witnessed that thing in sri lanka series.

Bumrah is a key asset as well. Saying that India will go all the way from 100 to 30 or 40 or 50% is a big statement. I think they will struggle but not as bad as we have seen in the case of Pakistan.