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Will MS Dhoni and Kedar Jadhav cost India dearly at the 2019 World Cup?

Proactive_ said:
Jadhav will be given the boot sooner or later. Dhoni on the other hand can't be touched under any circumstances. He is a superstar in a country which values superstars over team performance, just hope that he doesn't deteriorate much between now and 2019 and at least can keep competently.
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He is a superstar but he is also the best wicketkeeper in the country and probably in the world cricket.. So he makes the team solely as a wicket keeper. India will need good wicket keeper as they have multiple wrist spinners in their ranks
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
I am not asking to wait for 6 months.

Just compile a pool of batsmen who have potential to blossom and rotate amongst them. It's ok if we lose with them but we are not doing it properly.

In our team, there should be NO place for Rahane, Dhoni and Karthik. Yet these 3 are there blocking out important spots which prevents us from trying out others.

Here are the potential bats for 2019 WC apart from top 3

Lokesh Rahul
Manish Pandey
Kedar Jadhav
Deepak Hooda
Mayank Agarwal
Suresh Raina
Robin Uthappa

There may be others too but I don't follow domestics and follow player developments.

Same way for bowling you can't have Bhuvi, Bumrah and Pandya as the pace attack. Doesn't matter how many games you win, they are not a complete attack and likely to screw up in a crucial game. Need to bring in other pacers into the mix.

For spinners, we have got the strategy right.

Possibles: Kuldeep, Chahal, Axar, Ashwin and Jaddu
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and who is that reliable wicketkeeper who will keep for all those spinners? Rahane and Jadhav i agree.. but wicketkeeping is a critical area with so many spinners in Indian ranks. There are two wrist spinners and reading their twenty overs and keeping safely to them is very important..
 
troodon said:
Since WC is in England I am okay with Rahane in the team. He struggle is when the ball turns. He usually comes into bat when spinners are on.

To me, below should be the batting line up in WC 2019.

Dhawan
Rohit
Kohli
KL Rahul/Rahane/ (Youngster)
Raina
Pandya
BK
MSD
Kuldeep
Chahal
Bumrah

Regarding the youngster slot, I am not sold on Iyer. He seems like a hack to me and tries too hard. Pandey is a mental midget. Seen enough of him. Don't know who else is good.
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Actually that is an excellent team. if the pitch is a road them we can drop Pandya and pick another full time bowler. Top six should be okay on a good road. BK can also chip in with some runs
 
Dhoni's place is secured for 2019 wc ..already confirmed by selectors, coach and captain

Raina/Deepak Hooda/ Nitish Rana/Vijay shanker can replace Jadhav

Need a batsmen who can bowl 3-4 overs ..Pandya might not give u 10 overs in everyday match
Raina selected for T20's against SA

Hooda was picked in T20's for Srilanka series .. as usual no chance in playing 11 ..lol dinesh karthik preferred
 
subbu said:
Dhoni's place is secured for 2019 wc ..already confirmed by selectors, coach and captain

Raina/Deepak Hooda/ Nitish Rana/Vijay shanker can replace Jadhav

Need a batsmen who can bowl 3-4 overs ..Pandya might not give u 10 overs in everyday match
Raina selected for T20's against SA

Hooda was picked in T20's for Srilanka series .. as usual no chance in playing 11 ..lol dinesh karthik preferred
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KP SHOULD replace jadhav....krunal pandya......jandy wicket taking spinner.....big hitter . Between them the pandya brothers van share 10 to 15 overs as foth bowler.....and both will be designated big hitters and should be given a target of scoring 38 to 40 runs of 20 balls.
 
mp812rediff said:
KP SHOULD replace jadhav....krunal pandya......jandy wicket taking spinner.....big hitter . Between them the pandya brothers van share 10 to 15 overs as foth bowler.....and both will be designated big hitters and should be given a target of scoring 38 to 40 runs of 20 balls.
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Krunal pandya played very few list A games also not a regular in India A matches and
1 first class match ( even Hardik pandya played nearly 20 first class matches before debut)

But has a very good record in IPL as allrounder
 
The Indian middle order is stuttering along again - going to fall short of a par score here.

I would move Rohit to number 4 and play Rahul, Rahane or someone new as opener - it's worth a try as an experiment.
 
No need for Dhoni to go. His keeping skills are extraordinary. Who needs runs from him !!!
 
It's time India start giving chance to likes of deeepak hooda,sanju samson as lower order bat.both has power and ability to improvise in death overs.
 
Dhoni will Cost is the World Cup mark my words.. This team has potential to win the WC however we need to groom couple of youngsters but team management will not take risk and play Dhoni for WC.. Ultimatelh we all know we can’t win the WC without a player like 2011 WC Dhoni however in 2019 we won’t have such a player and we will lose..

Everyone knows this but rather than trying to groom someone (who may fail even worse than Dhoni) we are still banking on Dhoni who will make us lose 100%..
 
I don't understand why is Dhoni not batting at #4. Instead of wasting that spot on Rahane, Dhoni will be a much useful batsman in that position.
 
Sachin136 said:
Dhoni wasn't bad today. He did a lot better than the rest of the middle order.
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I know wickets were falling around him but when you come in to bat with 15 overs to go and lots of wickets in hand scoring a 40 odd slower than a run a ball is a bit meh imo and it won't win you a WC in England where scores are now getting higher and higher.
 
I dont understand why a player like Sanju Samson wont get a go when these useless flat track batsmen like Shreyas Iyers keep getting chances ? Unbelievable
 
Dhoni should do something about his strike rotation. He is becoming a Misbah.

Rahane is tripe. Needs to be replaced with Pant/Gill. What are the other options?
 
BreadPakoda said:
Dhoni should do something about his strike rotation. He is becoming a Misbah.

Rahane is tripe. Needs to be replaced with Pant/Gill. What are the other options?
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Samson,rana,k.pandya,deepak hooda all aggressive and better middle order batsman than rahane.
 
It's not Dhoni, but Pandya the hack, Rahane the misfit, and Rohit the disaster will cost the world Cup for India. This hack Pandya has done nothing noteworthy to even warrant a place in India A side, let alone national side. First should get rid of these duds before blaming Dhoni for his slow strike rate.
 
Tyler Durden said:
It's not Dhoni, but Pandya the hack, Rahane the misfit, and Rohit the disaster will cost the world Cup for India. This hack Pandya has done nothing noteworthy to even warrant a place in India A side, let alone national side. First should get rid of these duds before blaming Dhoni for his slow strike rate.
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Does India has anybody who can wack the seamers in last 10 overs? - Wacking spinners, there are many in both India and Pakistan. With five fielders, you need a modern day power hitter, we don't have any, does India has any?? - This is the main hole in Indian team, rest of their team is pretty well rounded, they are lacking couple of power hitters...
 
Curious as to if Dhoni was to be kicked out, who would be his replacement? Only good wicket-keeper batsman i know is Saha. Even then unsure if he is good in ODIs.
 
yasir said:
Does India has anybody who can wack the seamers in last 10 overs? - Wacking spinners, there are many in both India and Pakistan. With five fielders, you need a modern day power hitter, we don't have any, does India has any?? - This is the main hole in Indian team, rest of their team is pretty well rounded, they are lacking couple of power hitters...
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Yes they have if you watch sanju samson or deepak hoodas videos you will get the idea.both samson and hooda deserve longer run in indian team.
 
Jadhav and Shreyas definitely need to be shaken off as soon as possible.

Dhoni is in a 'who else' situation. Don't have much hopes from Pant despite his ridiculous figures in domestics.

Don't know what happened to Samson. He was stunning to watch a few years back.
 
AssassinatedDevil said:
Curious as to if Dhoni was to be kicked out, who would be his replacement? Only good wicket-keeper batsman i know is Saha. Even then unsure if he is good in ODIs.
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That’s the point India needed to groom Pant and Samson after CT where Dhoni should have retired.. So by 2019 we would have had a good replacement..
 
pillionrider said:
Jadhav and Shreyas definitely need to be shaken off as soon as possible.
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Jadhav should have been removed a long time ago.

I would make Shreyas a regular in the ODI team and give him a decent run. He is definitely a better player than the other options we have.
 
introvert said:
Yes they have if you watch sanju samson or deepak hoodas videos you will get the idea.both samson and hooda deserve longer run in indian team.
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Samson yes! He's a decent bat! But this Hooda guy is a bigger hack than Pandya. And totally a mental midget! I have seen enough of him in SRH and boy! He's way more inconsistant than Rahul.
 
gani999 said:
Jadhav should have been removed a long time ago.

I would make Shreyas a regular in the ODI team and give him a decent run. He is definitely a better player than the other options we have.
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Shreyas showed some glimpses here and there against the poor Lanka attack! But totaly looked like a tailender against this SA attack. Should wait and watch how he performs in the next matches. But he's such a poor fielder. I truly miss the fielders like Raina and Jadeja in the current indian set up. Gone are the days of Indian Gun fielders.
 
Why only bash Dhoni and Jadhav? Pandya is ineffective against pacers. Bhuvmeshwar Kumar is LOL. Your top three won't let them bat majority of the time anyway. Might aswell play bowlers starting from no.4.
 
introvert said:
Yes they have if you watch sanju samson or deepak hoodas videos you will get the idea.both samson and hooda deserve longer run in indian team.
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They don't play IPL? - Good talent should bubble up in IPL/PSL, specially power hitters, because there are so few of them in Asia ATM... Power hitting is out source to WI/ENG/AUS/SA in IPL from what I have seen, reflection of lack of local talent.
 
Unless a player is real Super Star .... one can knock down any other player in the Team !!!!!
 
I think the entire Indian middle order is poor. The more I see of Pandya, the more I am not convinced that he can be a good bowling all-rounder for India. Except for that innings in the first test, he has been a total flop with both bat and ball this series. His bowling has been poor and whenever he has gotten a chance to bat, he hasn't done anything of note. India cannot play Pandya because the captain likes the idea of having a pace bowling all-rounder, he actually needs to be good enough to play at this level. If Virat has to bowl a 6th bowler to complete Pandya's overs, he should not bowl him in ODI's at all.

Pandya has bowled 25 overs in 4 games at an average of 147 and a economy rate of 5.88. That's practically useless performance with the ball when you cannot score runs as well. Pandya has scored 26 runs in 3 innings at an average of 13 and a SR of 76.

India needs to do something to replace the 4-5-6-7 positions in the batting order if they want to stay relevant in ODI's. In spite of being 170/1 in 30 overs, India only ended up with 289 in 50 overs. Indian batting is top 3 or bust.
 
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Dhoni is probably still one of the better players in India, no. 5 is perfect for him at this stage of his career as he is not able to win matches like he used to. Raina can be a perfect no.6. It's just no.4 that India need to fix.
 
BunnyRabbit said:
Dhoni is probably still one of the better players in India, no. 5 is perfect for him at this stage of his career as he is not able to win matches like he used to. Raina can be a perfect no.6. It's just no.4 that India need to fix.
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You can probably bat Dhoni at #4. That becomes a very solid top four for India then and Raina and Pandya can provide the late impetus.
 
Bilal7 said:
You can probably bat Dhoni at #4. That becomes a very solid top four for India then and Raina and Pandya can provide the late impetus.
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Considering if their second wicket falls before 20th over, I would not have Dhoni in before 20th over. He is best utilized if he comes in around 25th over, maybe Uthappa can be no. 4. No. 4 is pretty situational for me interms of Indian middle order.
 
Dhoni has played for the senior Indian team almost 500 times and also kept wicket for most of those matches. He’s also 37 in a few months time so it’s only natural that his skills have declined but for the selectors to just ignore this is pathetic. It’s not as if it’s been a sudden decline, we’ve seen it happen over 2+ years.
 
Dhoni overstayed as test captain for at least 3 years and still left teary eyed.
In the meantime, he made sure that the likes of Sehwag, Gambhir, Mishra had their test and ODI careers ended. He gave age as the reason to exclude them from future plans, but when it has come to himself....
 
Dhoni :)))

As soon as he came into bat, it was certain India wont top 280.

He was a great limited overs player but was never really good against fast bowling, now his eyes have totally gone. Kohli needs to stand up and tell him to move on to commentary now. India wont win the World Cup because Pakistan will but he could be the won to make them lose some world cup matches for sure.
 
Many sides use their T20I team to blood youngsters for the odi side but India hasn’t even done that with wicketkeepers. Despite the fact that MS will be 39 by the time the next world T20 comes around in Australia he still hasn’t retired from that format nor been dropped.
 
troodon said:
Since WC is in England I am okay with Rahane in the team. He struggle is when the ball turns. He usually comes into bat when spinners are on.

To me, below should be the batting line up in WC 2019.

Dhawan
Rohit
Kohli
KL Rahul/Rahane/ (Youngster)
Raina
Pandya
BK
MSD
Kuldeep
Chahal
Bumrah

Regarding the youngster slot, I am not sold on Iyer. He seems like a hack to me and tries too hard. Pandey is a mental midget. Seen enough of him. Don't know who else is good.
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I think Pandey deserves his chance in place of Jadhav. He has done well in the chances he has gotten - also, his failures are much lesser than Jadhav given the type of situations he came to bat in where he had to just throw his bat around for the last 2-3 overs. Jadhav on the other hand has not been performing no matter when he comes out to bat. A fair case for replacement.
And Pandey is a gun fielder to boot - far better than butter-fingers Jadhav.
 
charlie007 said:
I think Pandey deserves his chance in place of Jadhav. He has done well in the chances he has gotten - also, his failures are much lesser than Jadhav given the type of situations he came to bat in where he had to just throw his bat around for the last 2-3 overs. Jadhav on the other hand has not been performing no matter when he comes out to bat. A fair case for replacement.
And Pandey is a gun fielder to boot - far better than butter-fingers Jadhav.
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This.And Pandey was main reason behind our only successful 300 plus chase in Australia So I dont think so he is mental midget.Iyer has problems with his catching technique and we just cant have such bad fielding batsmen in this current era in LOIs.
 
Gabbar Singh said:
Finally a decent innings by Dhoni.
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Ably helped by total tripe from SA bowlers. No Rabada or Morkel.

The likes of Morris and Paterson are cannon fodder.

Now Shastri will say, this is why we need MSD in the team. We all will watch MSD suck the momentum out of the innings in the coming matches.
 
troodon said:
Ably helped by total tripe from SA bowlers. No Rabada or Morkel.

The likes of Morris and Paterson are cannon fodder.

Now Shastri will say, this is why we need MSD in the team. We all will watch MSD suck the momentum out of the innings in the coming matches.
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But the fact is Youngsta beauties Pants and Samsons wouldn;t have lasted more than an over even against these cannon fodders! Dhoni is here to stay till WC 2019. Live with it!
 
Tyler Durden said:
But the fact is Youngsta beauties Pants and Samsons wouldn;t have lasted more than an over even against these cannon fodders! Dhoni is here to stay till WC 2019. Live with it!
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You are confusing formats here.

I have no problem with MSD playing ODI's. He is still useful there. But MSD playing T20's and refusing to retire is a joke.

This is the time when Pant or Samson or Kishan should have been tried. What if MSD is injured for 2019 WC? Who will be his replacement if you do not give any chance to the young talent?

MSD kicked out seniors when he was captain. But he refuses to follow his own rules when its turn.
 
Dhoni's occasional innings like this is not going to fool anyone. He is not realiable. Not even 5% as reliable as he was at his very best.
 
Well we all should accept Dhoni is going to play 2019 WC so should just hope and pray his form gets better and he can win it.. No point cribbing about it now
 
Even if dhoni will end up winning next world cup for India few people will find some reason to mock and degrade him
Rise above the hate
 
I think Indian supporters are going overboard with their criticism of Dhoni. Yes, India has amazing backup options for the keeping slot in the form of Rahul, Samson, Pant, Kishan and Kartik but I still believe Dhoni is the best option for the WC. Despite some of his late innings bloopers in the recent past, he is still the best finisher in the game. I for one completely agree with his philosophy of chasing which revolves around taking the innings as deep as possible without losing key wickets. As a Pakistan supporter I have seen so many matches where Pakistan could've chased down totals only for middle order bats like Malik and Akmal to throw away the match by going on the offense prematurely. These days, the ubiquity of flat tracks coupled with batting innovation make any target chaseable as long as the batsmen keep their head and take the innings as deep as possible. Batting deep generally transfers the pressure to the bowling side as even with the best bowling attacks there are bound to be 1 or 2 bad balls every over or two. And Dhoni is the undisputed master of this art. His presence in the lower middle order is a huge bonus to the Indian team and gives them an edge over the other teams.
 
Dhoni has always been great in the IPL and hopefully he plays in the WC. A middle order of Jadav Pandey Dhoni and Pandya would be a dream come true for other teams
 
Great as the innings was, leaving 14 runs for last over is very risky - as we have seen far too many times with Dhoni.

No blame on Dhoni this time at all - he did wonderfully at very high strike rate.

But the fact that they had a great last over in IPL will mean it will solidify 'leave it to the last over' approach in Dhoni's mind.
 
Dhoni is incredibly clutch and a gun in IPL.

But using Dhoni's exploits in IPL (targeting a few ladoo bowlers) to conclude he will do the same in international cricket is naive.
 
Dhoni will play till 2019 WC. Indian fans should accept it. But after seeing this year's IPL, there are better options than Jahdav. He shouldn't be playing at 2019 WC.
 
MS Dhoni will cost India the World Cup

Here are the top 10 batsmen by strike rate in the middle order (4-7) (qualification - 500 runs) since 18 May 2016 (last 2 years)

1. Hardik Pandya - 117.30

2. Jos Buttler - 116.74

3. Moeen Ali - 115.88

4. AB De Villiers - 111.03

5. Kedar Jadav - 109.57

6. David Miller - 104.68

7. Ben Stoke - 99.19

8. MS Wade - 95.54

9. Jason Holder - 95.10

10. James Neesham - 94.27

As you see, top 5 all strike at well over 100. Dhoni's ranks 23, and his Strike Rate is 81.63. That's lower than even Mohammad Hafeez (83.07).

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...6;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

In 31 innings, Dhoni has scored 1049 runs, with run per innings of 33.83.
Which means he wastes around 41 balls to score those 34 runs. As he usually comes to bat after 30th over, his innings completely kills all momentum created by the top 3. Rest of the middle order also collapse trying to compensate for MSD's tuk tuk during the powerplay.

Not sure if his wicket keeping skills are worth the batting slot. By the way, it might not be good idea to judge middle order batsmen in ODIs by their average nowadays, so Dhoni should not be compared to the likes Kohli or ABD in anyway (Kohli doesn't use not outs to pad average and actually scores his runs every innings, while ABD is ABD).

Thoughts?
 
Yes and all of us know it as well.The middle order is a big issue.
I admire Dhoni he has done wonderful things for Indian cricket and Ranchi but he defn is over.
 
Only blind MSD fans think he is still a superstar.

We know MSD has been a dud with the bat for a while now. He is still living off of his past glory. His inability to accelerate at the death is well known. He relies on the likes of Manish Pandey, Jadhav and Pandya to score while he strokes his way to a masterful 25 runs at 80 s/r and remains not out :msd

India should have groomed a backup keeper after CT debacle. I trust Karthik more than Dhoni now.
 
Its not the SR which is not bad.

His stats are good since 2016 but impact ain't there.

Break down his knocks situation wise and you will see how he is a massive burden to the team.

This IPL he has been great (impact wise) but i expect him to be back to his impactless self very soon.

In modern LOI, its easy to fool people with your stats.
 
I think this is very obvious and the even worse thing is that he will not retire for a very long time after the world cup.
 
good to see this thread. Hopefully our dumb captain and cheerleader coach somehow realize this before the WC and ask for Pant in the WC squad.
 
Send1983 said:
good to see this thread. Hopefully our dumb captain and cheerleader coach somehow realize this before the WC and ask for Pant in the WC squad.
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Not like Pant has set the international stage on fire yet. I think people sometimes forget how difficult it is for someone to step up effortlessly from just league cricket. If I were Indian, I'd much rather have Kartik instead who's an experienced bat. Either ways, while India will have an excellent top 3, their batting is nowhere as intimidating as 2011 or even 2015 for that matter where you still had a functioning Raina who is clutch.
 
Rishta Aunty said:
Not like Pant has set the international stage on fire yet. I think people sometimes forget how difficult it is for someone to step up effortlessly from just league cricket. If I were Indian, I'd much rather have Kartik instead who's an experienced bat. Either ways, while India will have an excellent top 3, their batting is nowhere as intimidating as 2011 or even 2015 for that matter where you still had a functioning Raina who is clutch.
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I want Pant in the squad as a back up WK. I want Karthik to be a starting WK. both Karthik and Pant can get into the side just as a batsman. If MO doesnt click, Pant can very much take one of the slots in the middle of the tournament.
 
Send1983 said:
I want Pant in the squad as a back up WK. I want Karthik to be a starting WK. both Karthik and Pant can get into the side just as a batsman. If MO doesnt click, Pant can very much take one of the slots in the middle of the tournament.
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Well can't help but think it's probably too early for Pant to make it. He literally has to play every tournament and do well to get there from this point on. Point is that Dhoni should not be doing finisher duties anymore. He can be a competent Number 4 in the Mohammad Yousuf/Michael Clarke mode. Will keep an end up and collect runs at a lower than average strike rate with very little risk, but he's not going to win you matches is my gut feel.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
I am not asking to wait for 6 months.

Just compile a pool of batsmen who have potential to blossom and rotate amongst them. It's ok if we lose with them but we are not doing it properly.

In our team, there should be NO place for Rahane, Dhoni and Karthik. Yet these 3 are there blocking out important spots which prevents us from trying out others.

Here are the potential bats for 2019 WC apart from top 3

Lokesh Rahul
Manish Pandey
Kedar Jadhav
Deepak Hooda
Mayank Agarwal
Suresh Raina
Robin Uthappa

There may be others too but I don't follow domestics and follow player developments.

Same way for bowling you can't have Bhuvi, Bumrah and Pandya as the pace attack. Doesn't matter how many games you win, they are not a complete attack and likely to screw up in a crucial game. Need to bring in other pacers into the mix.

For spinners, we have got the strategy right.

Possibles: Kuldeep, Chahal, Axar, Ashwin and Jaddu
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No Pant. He has set ablaze the current edition of your T20 league
 
silent ischemia said:
No Pant. He has set ablaze the current edition of your T20 league
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He is a hack and struggled to put bat on ball against international sides in every opportunity he got, including A team tours. Don't read too much to the runs made in IPL where pitches are super-pattas tailor-made for big runs.Even an over-the hill Dhoni was smoking bowlers there.
 
Dhoni is there because Kohli wants him. Otherwise, he would have been shown the door. Kohli needs Dhoni for strategizing or tips. Kohli can't captain at all.
 
Lol Pant is a WK.. so he need to be safe behind the wicket which he's not yet.. nor Karthik.. over the hill Dhoni is still best available WK Batsman India have.. But he's not the finisher anymore but it's better if he's bat at 4..
 
Did anyone just see what Dhoni did? There was a run out chance, he received the ball, tried to be cute and throw the ball from high above onto the stumps, except he totally missed it :facepalm:

Don't know why he could have just done what any other keeper would have done and removed the stumps normally but he tried to be too clever and it left him with egg on his face.
 
Even as a Pak fan seeing Dhoni carry on when he's over the hill is sad to see. Not only because he was a great player but because Asian teams let themselves down by carrying legends until they decide to call it a day. This is poor mentality which must change.
 
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