Will Ravichandran Ashwin overtake Anil Kumble to become India's best ever spin bowler?

[gani999]

Discuss.

Ashwin has to play in another 100 odd tests to equal Kumble and needs around 500 odd wickets to reach his mark.

Do you think he will? He does look promising.

 

[Varun]

He certainly has a very sensible head on his shoulders.

Only guy who holds his own in our bowling 'attack'.

 

[pakistanigoneaussie]

he's already 29 and cricketers are retiring earlier these days to make the most out of the leagues

I reckon he wont, but time will be the only reason

 

[SunTzu]

I don't think he has enough time to. Lately he has become a very clever bowler, I think he will be close to retirement at the 450 to 500 wicket mark.

 

[Adil_94]

Yes i think he will. Ashwin plays on the most spin friendly tracks in the world and he is a very good spinner. This last year he has been very good improved a lot. In ODIS he is superb at controlling the middle overs reminds me of Ajmal in that aspect but without the chucking. Overseas Kumble never pulled up any trees until the last half of his career when he had an ATG batting lineup that could keep him in the game and pile on big scores overseas. But Ashwin does need to.improve outside Asia.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

 

[Scrolln]

he's already 29 and cricketers are retiring earlier these days to make the most out of the leagues

I reckon he wont, but time will be the only reason

Spinners can play till 38/39.

I think he can surpass Kumble.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

If he doesn't fade away in skills or injuries, then yes.

If he bowls like he does these days (only time will tell though I do feel its possible), he will correct his record almost everywhere (Aus record has been tarnished too much though).

The big advantage for him is that his SR is ridiculous (even excluding Indian pitches - like for say recent Bang and SL series) which means more chances of wickets per game.

By the way, Kumble is our best spin bowler stats wise and combining 2 formats. However Chandra and Bedi are rated more than Kumble in tests. They had more balanced records too.

 

[Bilal7]

Most wickets =/= The best. Having said that, I don't see him taking 500 wickets. He can be their best if he keeps his performances in the subcon up and improves overseas.

 

[OS_89]

Chandra is India's greatest spinner ever in any case.

 

[IndianWillow]

Why is the number of wickets so important in settling this issue? Kumble was a lion at home, but did not replicate his home performances away. If Ashwin can outperform Kumble away for say, over five or six years he will automatically overtake Kumble. If Ashwin takes 400 wickets @ 28 with decent away performances, then he will be easily better than Kumble. Ashwin's strike rates have already marked him for superiority over Kumble, if Ashwin can hold on to his current levels.

 

[Buffet]

Next round of away series for India will decide it.

 

[Haz95]

He can become ATG if manages a 30> average away from the SC.

 

[#GreenRoars]

He will easily if there is no injury.

 

[Justcrazy]

He is good across all formats.

Very intelligent bowler and always learning.

 

[JaDed]

His impact in cricket for the Indian team is probably very high right now.

 

[Abhilash93]

I consider Chandra, Bedi, Prasanna, Gupte above or at par with Kumble.
Lets wait for a few years.

 

[Zak_Fan]

He could be India's GOAT Test Cricketer if he manages to bring the away average down. India will play a lot of matches abroad, so he has a chance.

 

[battler]

He could be India's GOAT Test Cricketer if he manages to bring the away average down. India will play a lot of matches abroad, so he has a chance.

And imagine if he starts contributing more with the bat as well!

 

[Haz95]

And imagine if he starts contributing more with the bat as well!

He could be India's GOAT Test Cricketer if he manages to bring the away average down. India will play a lot of matches abroad, so he has a chance.

Wouldn't he have to score 100 strike rate, well 150 strike rate 100s (relative to this era) against countries like England or Australia away?
Not to mention he'll need a 5fer or 2 while maintaining at least a sub 33 average.

 

[Zak_Fan]

And imagine if he starts contributing more with the bat as well!

That's the only way he can get there. Even if he averages 35 with bat and 28 with ball, it will be awesome!

 

[battler]

That's the only way he can get there. Even if he averages 35 with bat and 28 with ball, it will be awesome!

He still has to overtake kapil paaji

 

[Zak_Fan]

Wouldn't he have to score 100 strike rate, well 150 strike rate 100s (relative to this era) against countries like England or Australia away?
Not to mention he'll need a 5fer or 2 while maintaining at least a sub 33 average.

No.

 

[Haz95]

He still has to overtake kapil paaji

Ditto

No.

Paaji saab was scoring 100 strike rate 100s against the greatest team of all time, let alone the greatest of the era. Ashwins gotta manage it against England or Aus at least.

you should elaborate too rather than just saying 'no'

 

[Zak_Fan]

Read below



Paaji saab was scoring 100 strike rate 100s against the greatest team of all time, let alone the greatest of the era. Ashwins gotta manage it against England or Aus at least.

Really? I thought he was more of a tailend slogger who scored quick 30s and 40s at best. If true, I stand corrected.

 

[battler]

Read below



Paaji saab was scoring 100 strike rate 100s against the greatest team of all time, let alone the greatest of the era. Ashwins gotta manage it against England or Aus at least.

you should elaborate too rather than just saying 'no'

Tbh Ashwin will be better than kapil with the ball but I doubt he can match his batting prowess.
Ashwin is the better bowler and kapil the better batsman.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Have any of you guys checked his SR in Asia?

Min qualification - 50 wickets

All bowlers in Asia ever - http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...ualval1=wickets;template=results;type=bowling

All spinners in Asia ever - http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...ualval1=wickets;template=results;type=bowling

For me, it comes to a simple equation: Is this a permanent change or just a great 2-3 year peak?

If its permanent change, he is going to blow away a lot of opponents in Asia. Its also aided by the fact that spin playing ability has reduced world wide (in the past too you had a lot of lulloo spin playing teams to feast on but now even the top spin playing sides are declining).

Since his change in WC 2015, he averages 16 with 31 SR in tests.

This year averages 20 with 37 SR.

 

[battler]

Have any of you guys checked his SR in Asia?

Min qualification - 50 wickets

All bowlers in Asia ever - http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...ualval1=wickets;template=results;type=bowling

All spinners in Asia ever - http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...ualval1=wickets;template=results;type=bowling

For me, it comes to a simple equation: Is this a permanent change or just a great 2-3 year peak?

If its permanent change, he is going to blow away a lot of opponents in Asia. Its also aided by the fact that spin playing ability has reduced world wide (in the past too you had a lot of lulloo spin playing teams to feast on but now even the top spin playing sides are declining).

Since his change in WC 2015, he averages 16 with 31 SR in tests.

This year averages 20 with 37 SR.

look at his 5-fers, if he keeps up this rate he will become the best bowler in Asia ever.
13 5-fers in 21 tests in Asia. Murali has 52 in 97 tests. If he keeps it out then he will edge out Murali as well.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Paaji saab was scoring 100 strike rate 100s against the greatest team of all time, let alone the greatest of the era. Ashwins gotta manage it against England or Aus at least.'

Its beyond Ashwin's capability to match Kapil's prowess in supercharged batting. Not even in dreams can Ashwin match those feats of Kapil.

But he can play proper knocks in countries the normal way (he is pretty fast in tests with a 60+ SR).

Has 50s in England and Aus (2011, 2014 and 2015) - so he has the ability to bat.

But these days, he is a moron with the bat. Threw away his wicket so many times in SL due to idiotic shots before scoring a crucial match winning 50 in the decider. So his batting is unpredictable these days. Will have to work on it.

 

[dashing_man]

he can takeover bhaji but kumble, No

 

[Buffet]

Really? I thought he was more of a tailend slogger who scored quick 30s and 40s at best. If true, I stand corrected.

LOL, I will like to see some 'tail slogger' taking an equivalent of Marshall, Roberts, Garner and Holding in their den. Dev had ton with 100+ SR against that fearsome unit. Well, we are hardly going to find equivalent of that but you get the point.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63336.html

----

If that doesn't give you a picture then he had another 98 runs with 100+ SR against Roberts, Holding and Marshall in their den again.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63339.html

----

Donald and Schultz were all over you guys in St George Park and Kapil took them on for a ton. Those two going guns were sight to see due to being express. Unfortunately Schultz didn't play much for us.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63588.html

------------------

Ashwin has a long way to go here and I think many PPers are getting carried away. Dev is just beind SRT as the best cricketer produced by India. It's not an easy benchmark.

 

[hefaith]

LOL, I will like to see some 'tail slogger' taking an equivalent of Marshall, Roberts, Garner and Holding in their den. Dev had ton with 100+ SR against that fearsome unit. Well, we are hardly going to find equivalent of that but you get the point.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63336.html

----

If that doesn't give you a picture then he had another 98 runs with 100+ SR against Roberts, Holding and Marshall in their den again.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63339.html

----

Donald and Schultz were all over you guys in St George Park and Kapil took them on for a ton. Those two going guns were sight to see due to being express. Unfortunately Schultz didn't play much for us.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63588.html

------------------

Ashwin has a long way to go here and I think many PPers are getting carried away. Dev is just beind SRT as the best cricketer produced by India. It's not an easy benchmark.

I doubt how accurate the balls faced is, I mean why don't the other players show how many balls they faced?

 

[Buffet]

I doubt how accurate the balls faced is, I mean why don't the other players show how many balls they faced?

Looks strange for sure. I don't know the reason for all batsmen not having balls faced.

Some other reference of balls in article written by Gareth Bland,

-----

the Indian captain struck 13 fours and three sixes in a 95 ball

http://www.cricketweb.net/kapil-dev-versus-west-indies/

------

I have actually seen similar patterns in some other old test scorecards as well. I am not sure why these kind of cases exist where data is given for one but not for another.

 

[Amjid Javed]

Ashwin like Kumble is a home track bully bowler, in saying that he is a quality spinner and will trouble most batsmen around the world in conditions that help spin. Also Ashwin doesnt have the luxury of favourable and joke home umpiring that kumble use to live off and got so many extra bonus home wickets because of it.

Ashwin may not get as many wickets as kumble but hes just as good a bowler.

 

[aslaisnomasla]

Ashwin is currently the best spinner around, nobody likes to face him these days.

 

[Acricketfan]

Ashwin like Kumble is a home track bully bowler, in saying that he is a quality spinner and will trouble most batsmen around the world in conditions that help spin. Also Ashwin doesnt have the luxury of favourable and joke home umpiring that kumble use to live off and got so many extra bonus home wickets because of it.

Ashwin may not get as many wickets as kumble but hes just as good a bowler.

 

[IndianWillow]

Ashwin like Kumble is a home track bully bowler, in saying that he is a quality spinner and will trouble most batsmen around the world in conditions that help spin. Also Ashwin doesnt have the luxury of favourable and joke home umpiring that kumble use to live off and got so many extra bonus home wickets because of it.

Ashwin may not get as many wickets as kumble but hes just as good a bowler.

I thought we play in the era of neutral umpires? Matches with two home umpires have not been played since 1994, I think. Since 2002, both umpires are neutral, and Kumble's home performances didn't drop noticeably after 2002 inspite of Kumble going past his prime by then. If you want to talk about joke home umpiring you must rewind to the 80s or before, and this may apply to all home teams not just India.

 

[Slog]

Ashwin v Kumble in India. Can Ashwin become India's most successful home Tests bowler?

Who's been better?

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

There is already a thread about this naa?

Ashwin potentially can.

Averages 20.97 in India (SR 46) and 20.47 in Asia (SR 44) as of now.

Can someone who has watched both their careers post about the home/Asian pitches they played in. Ashwin has bowled in much easier bowling tracks than Kumble did post 2000. Dunno much about the 90s tracks that Kumble played in. It was spin friendly but dunno how much.

Direct average comparison may not be fair on Kumble but Ashwin does seem to be collecting MOS awards like mad.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Kumble by far.

Anyone who has seen both, please think a little and answer me honesty whom would you rather face in the conditions Ashwin's picked his wickets.

Kumble would be a batsman's biggest nightmare on a spinning pitch.

 

[IndianWillow]

I am wondering. Kumble had four MOS during his 18 year long career, and Ashwin has five MOS in his four year long career already. Ashwin with superior averages and strike rates is statistically superior to Kumble but Kumble had to bowl to better batsmen of spin.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Ashwin is not fit to even tie Kumble's laces. Very limited bowler, who sometimes doesnt deliver even on spin friendly pitches.

 

[Scrolln]

I think he will surpass Kumble's tally of 350 wickets at home.

But will he be able to show the heart Kumble showed in overseas tours like he did in Aus 2004? Even Murali continuously failed in Aus. Kumble, despite his poor numbers overseas, has a few significant performances there.

 

[IndianWillow]

I think he will surpass Kumble's tally of 350 wickets at home.

But will he be able to show the heart Kumble showed in overseas tours like he did in Aus 2004? Even Murali continuously failed in Aus. Kumble, despite his poor numbers overseas, has a few significant performances there.

Kumble needed a decade worth of experience to do well outside India. Ashwin may be able to do that or even better Kumble in this respect.

 

[BeautifulGame]

Yes mainly because the batting techniques of most Batsmen are joke compared to the Batsmen in the past .

 

[Thivagar]

Ashwin is not fit to even tie Kumble's laces. Very limited bowler, who sometimes doesnt deliver even on spin friendly pitches.

What's with all these Indians and Paksitanis obsession with shoe laces ? Doesn't Kumble know how to tie his own shoes ?

 

[Thivagar]

Ashwin is slowly becoming a nightmare for the batsmen. If he does this twice outside his comfort zone, people will start respect him more.

 

[ChachaCricket]

Meh, he's padded his stats a lot by facing mediocre, limited opponents in India. Until he performs outside SC or against England/Pakistan in the subcontinent, he won't enter that category.

 

[Junaids]

If he doesn't fade away in skills or injuries, then yes.

If he bowls like he does these days (only time will tell though I do feel its possible), he will correct his record almost everywhere (Aus record has been tarnished too much though).

The big advantage for him is that his SR is ridiculous (even excluding Indian pitches - like for say recent Bang and SL series) which means more chances of wickets per game.

By the way, Kumble is our best spin bowler stats wise and combining 2 formats. However Chandra and Bedi are rated more than Kumble in tests. They had more balanced records too.

It's a fascinating subject.

Firstly, I owe people like [MENTION=134809]sensible-indian-fan[/MENTION] and [MENTION=50394]IndianWillow[/MENTION] an apology. I have argued all along that Ashwin should play every Test, everywhere, but largely because he is a capable batsman and a good off-spinner. But I was slow to realise that he has made the leap from being a good off-spinner to an exceptional one. In fact, I'd rank him alongside Graeme Swann and behind only Jim Laker as the greatest post-war off-spinner. Even ahead of Lance Gibbs. And I won't consider Murali at all, for obvious reasons.

Secondly, Anil Kumble is nowhere near the greatest Indian spinner. He just played more matches and took more wickets than some of his superior predecessors did.

The best two Indian spinners that I have ever seen were Bishan Bedi and Bhagwat Chandrasekhar, with Erapalli Prasanna not far behind. I'm starting to think that Ashwin is currently drawing awfully close to Bedi and Chandrasekhar, but I don't think that he has the dip that they did, yet.

 

[Random Aussie]

Have any of you guys checked his SR in Asia?

Min qualification - 50 wickets

All bowlers in Asia ever - http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...ualval1=wickets;template=results;type=bowling

All spinners in Asia ever - http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...ualval1=wickets;template=results;type=bowling

For me, it comes to a simple equation: Is this a permanent change or just a great 2-3 year peak?

If its permanent change, he is going to blow away a lot of opponents in Asia. Its also aided by the fact that spin playing ability has reduced world wide (in the past too you had a lot of lulloo spin playing teams to feast on but now even the top spin playing sides are declining).

Since his change in WC 2015, he averages 16 with 31 SR in tests.

This year averages 20 with 37 SR.

It's neither, he is bowling on absolute minefields. Whichever competent spinner you had bowling 35% of the overs on these tracks would take a heap of wickets.

 

[Random Aussie]

It's a fascinating subject.

Firstly, I owe people like [MENTION=134809]sensible-indian-fan[/MENTION] and [MENTION=50394]IndianWillow[/MENTION] an apology. I have argued all along that Ashwin should play every Test, everywhere, but largely because he is a capable batsman and a good off-spinner. But I was slow to realise that he has made the leap from being a good off-spinner to an exceptional one. In fact, I'd rank him alongside Graeme Swann and behind only Jim Laker as the greatest post-war off-spinner. Even ahead of Lance Gibbs. And I won't consider Murali at all, for obvious reasons.

Secondly, Anil Kumble is nowhere near the greatest Indian spinner. He just played more matches and took more wickets than some of his superior predecessors did.

The best two Indian spinners that I have ever seen were Bishan Bedi and Bhagwat Chandrasekhar, with Erapalli Prasanna not far behind. I'm starting to think that Ashwin is currently drawing awfully close to Bedi and Chandrasekhar, but I don't think that he has the dip that they did, yet.

Don't be hasty doctor.

 

[90MPH]

He's a beast at home in India like Kumble was. He's bowling very well there as he does get plenty of assistance along with his accuracy and flight.

Now he has to do this more Consistently away from home when he gets less help.

If you look at Sir Ravendra Jadeja he looks so mediocre away from home because he's simply a darter who gets no turn but on Indian minefields he becomes very hard to score because he gets assisted turn at quick pace. It's very hard to score, let alone defend.

I will say though Ashwin is a much improved bowler now than compared to a few years ago.

It would have been a good contest had the Tests against Pak in the UAE been given the go ahead this year but oh well.

 

[Abdul]

There is certainly a possibilty that he can surpass Anil Kumble.

Also he can play for seven or eight more years as spinners don't get injured as often as the pacers - but again it depends on how much committedness he will show in the upcoming years.

 

[Cricket World]

Yeah he needs to take more than 80% of his wickets on home made doctored pirtches

 

[Zak_Fan]

It's neither, he is bowling on absolute minefields. Whichever competent spinner you had bowling 35% of the overs on these tracks would take a heap of wickets.

Most of the matches he played in India have been on flatter tracks, not minefields.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

It's neither, he is bowling on absolute minefields. Whichever competent spinner you had bowling 35% of the overs on these tracks would take a heap of wickets.

Yes Indian tracks help Ash definitely but why does he average sub 20 in Bangladesh and SL? Were those mine fields too?

You underrate Ash too much bro.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

It's a fascinating subject.

Firstly, I owe people like [MENTION=134809]sensible-indian-fan[/MENTION] and [MENTION=50394]IndianWillow[/MENTION] an apology. I have argued all along that Ashwin should play every Test, everywhere, but largely because he is a capable batsman and a good off-spinner. But I was slow to realise that he has made the leap from being a good off-spinner to an exceptional one. In fact, I'd rank him alongside Graeme Swann and behind only Jim Laker as the greatest post-war off-spinner. Even ahead of Lance Gibbs. And I won't consider Murali at all, for obvious reasons.

Secondly, Anil Kumble is nowhere near the greatest Indian spinner. He just played more matches and took more wickets than some of his superior predecessors did.

The best two Indian spinners that I have ever seen were Bishan Bedi and Bhagwat Chandrasekhar, with Erapalli Prasanna not far behind. I'm starting to think that Ashwin is currently drawing awfully close to Bedi and Chandrasekhar, but I don't think that he has the dip that they did, yet.

Those are big names bro.

Derek Underwood, Lance Gibbs and Swann have performances globally and Ash needs to perform overseas (hasn't played anywhere much except Aus though - 1 test in SA and 2 in England) so it will be interesting to see how he copes up.

Is he really awfully close to Bedi and Chandra? Coming close to them or anywhere near them is a huge achievement.

 

[Random Aussie]

Yes Indian tracks help Ash definitely but why does he average sub 20 in Bangladesh and SL? Were those mine fields too?

You underrate Ash too much bro.

Played all of 3 Tests in SL and one in the Desh. If you want to count that sort of sample, he averages 54 in Australia, 34 in England and literally didn't take a wicket in SA.

He's played 19 of 32 Tests at home (23 of 32 in Asia) and yes I underrate him, he isn't much chop without a helpful pitch. At this stage of his career. He may improve.

 

[Junaids]

Those are big names bro.

Derek Underwood, Lance Gibbs and Swann have performances globally and Ash needs to perform overseas (hasn't played anywhere much except Aus though - 1 test in SA and 2 in England) so it will be interesting to see how he copes up.

Is he really awfully close to Bedi and Chandra? Coming close to them or anywhere near them is a huge achievement.

It's hard to compare across the generations.

Ashwin has a much better Test strike rate than Bedi or Chandrasekhar or Gibbs. But even though India don't use DRS, it's in part because DRS means that umpires are much more likely to give LBWs as out because when the other 9 teams are playing any howlers can be overturned.

Gibbs and Bedi and Chandrasekhar all sometimes looked like they had stopped the flow of runs but were never going to take a wicket.

Graeme Swann is a funny case. I heard him on TMS recently on BBC Radio, pointing out that he averaged 24 against left-handers and 36 against right-handers. That's the risk for all off-spinners who don't have a doosra, and in my opinion it means that Swann wasn't quite as good as the likes of Jim Laker but also a slow-left-armer like Deadly Derek Underwood.

 

[Junaids]

Played all of 3 Tests in SL and one in the Desh. If you want to count that sort of sample, he averages 54 in Australia, 34 in England and literally didn't take a wicket in SA.

He's played 19 of 32 Tests at home (23 of 32 in Asia) and yes I underrate him, he isn't much chop without a helpful pitch. At this stage of his career. He may improve.

I would have agreed with you completely four months ago. But he has clearly improved a lot.

 

[Random Aussie]

Yeah he needs to take more than 80% of his wickets on home made doctored pirtches

Not quite correct, he has only taken 72% of his career wickets on home pitches

And 86% of his wickets in Asia.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Not quite correct, he has only taken 72% of his career wickets on home pitches

And 86% of his wickets in Asia.

Lillee took 90% of his wickets in Aus and Eng and 95% of wickets in Aus Eng and NZ.He is a ATG of the game.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Played all of 3 Tests in SL and one in the Desh. If you want to count that sort of sample, he averages 54 in Australia, 34 in England and literally didn't take a wicket in SA.

He's played 19 of 32 Tests at home (23 of 32 in Asia) and yes I underrate him, he isn't much chop without a helpful pitch. At this stage of his career. He may improve.

OK let's do the break up and see.

He played 6 tests in Aus. 2 tours.

3 tests in first tour when he was brand new and wasn't that good. Agreed.

The next 3, he bowled while at the other end, your batsmen ran riots by smashing our pacers at 6 rpo. That series, he averaged the same as Lyon in those 3 tests (he didn't play in Adelaide turner) bowling alongside absolute spray guns.

In England he played 2 tests but 2 innings only (India lost by innings defeat.)

His bowling figures in 2 innings were - 0/30 and 3/72

In SA, he played the Joberg test and went wicketless (0/24 and 0/84) which is why he was dropped and then he eventually improved.

So how does the average of 33 in England and wicketless in SA matter when sample is just 2 innings. In fact, I would say he was decent in England (even the old version).

----
And by the way, the 3rd test in SL was an absolute pacer's wicket. Was the max wicket taker for spinners (4). The rest of the spinners (Herath, Mishra) picked up 2 wickets there but there was a small problem. 100% of their wickets were tailenders while he picked a couple of top order bats.

----

Tally up everything and see. He has to perform outside (didn't get much of a chance to be honest) but he ain't just a spin track bully.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

It's hard to compare across the generations.

Ashwin has a much better Test strike rate than Bedi or Chandrasekhar or Gibbs. But even though India don't use DRS, it's in part because DRS means that umpires are much more likely to give LBWs as out because when the other 9 teams are playing any howlers can be overturned.

Gibbs and Bedi and Chandrasekhar all sometimes looked like they had stopped the flow of runs but were never going to take a wicket.

Graeme Swann is a funny case. I heard him on TMS recently on BBC Radio, pointing out that he averaged 24 against left-handers and 36 against right-handers. That's the risk for all off-spinners who don't have a doosra, and in my opinion it means that Swann wasn't quite as good as the likes of Jim Laker but also a slow-left-armer like Deadly Derek Underwood.

Those days umpires didn't give lbw easily so even good spinners had bad SRs compared to today's times. So feel SR can't be compared with this era.

But yeah....one of the good aspects about Ash is he strikes fast. Really fast. He ain't a line and length bowler who keeps it tight and when he gets wickets, the average looks great (not that its wrong too). He gives runs (relatively more) but gets wickets faster too.

 

[battler]

It's a fascinating subject.

Firstly, I owe people like [MENTION=134809]sensible-indian-fan[/MENTION] and [MENTION=50394]IndianWillow[/MENTION] an apology. I have argued all along that Ashwin should play every Test, everywhere, but largely because he is a capable batsman and a good off-spinner. But I was slow to realise that he has made the leap from being a good off-spinner to an exceptional one. In fact, I'd rank him alongside Graeme Swann and behind only Jim Laker as the greatest post-war off-spinner. Even ahead of Lance Gibbs. And I won't consider Murali at all, for obvious reasons.

Secondly, Anil Kumble is nowhere near the greatest Indian spinner. He just played more matches and took more wickets than some of his superior predecessors did.

The best two Indian spinners that I have ever seen were Bishan Bedi and Bhagwat Chandrasekhar, with Erapalli Prasanna not far behind. I'm starting to think that Ashwin is currently drawing awfully close to Bedi and Chandrasekhar, but I don't think that he has the dip that they did, yet.

He is getting there. See the wickets he got off Elgar and wan zyl in this series and you would see why.
I know elgar and wan zyl are not the ideal batsmen to show off your skills against but he definitely had got the ball to dip on them.
Right now for me, Swann is slightly better than Ashwin only because swann was a proven performer all over the world which Ashwin hasn't done yet.

Ashwin bowled alright against England last year in England had very good control and wasn't dominated, same goes in Australia where he did bowl well and generally kept a lid on the Aussie bats apart from the time when they were throwing their bats around looking for a declaration.

Ashwin hasn't produced those overseas performances as yet to be considered as one of the greatest off-spinners.
So until he does that I would reserve my judgement. But like as [MENTION=134809]sensible-indian-fan[/MENTION] said he has got all the ingredients to become a great spinner -flight, dip, drift and turn.
Just one thing I would like him to do more especially overseas is use his height to extract more bounce.
In overseas conditions where turn is readily available, bounce is your friend and Ashwin has a good height which should enable him to do that. If he does then there is no reason why he can't average 30 in places like Austraila and South Africa which would be world-class level for off-spinners.

 

[battler]

*turn is not readily available

 

[axl100mph]

OK let's do the break up and see.

He played 6 tests in Aus. 2 tours.

3 tests in first tour when he was brand new and wasn't that good. Agreed.

The next 3, he bowled while at the other end, your batsmen ran riots by smashing our pacers at 6 rpo. That series, he averaged the same as Lyon in those 3 tests (he didn't play in Adelaide turner) bowling alongside absolute spray guns.

In England he played 2 tests but 2 innings only (India lost by innings defeat.)

His bowling figures in 2 innings were - 0/30 and 3/72

In SA, he played the Joberg test and went wicketless (0/24 and 0/84) which is why he was dropped and then he eventually improved.

So how does the average of 33 in England and wicketless in SA matter when sample is just 2 innings. In fact, I would say he was decent in England (even the old version).

----
And by the way, the 3rd test in SL was an absolute pacer's wicket. Was the max wicket taker for spinners (4). The rest of the spinners (Herath, Mishra) picked up 2 wickets there but there was a small problem. 100% of their wickets were tailenders while he picked a couple of top order bats.

----

Tally up everything and see. He has to perform outside (didn't get much of a chance to be honest) but he ain't just a spin track bully.

Ashwin since the world cup is a different bowler altogether.
Some people have still not realized that and are judging him from how he was before that

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

He is getting there. See the wickets he got off Elgar and wan zyl in this series and you would see why.
I know elgar and wan zyl are not the ideal batsmen to show off your skills against but he definitely had got the ball to dip on them.
Right now for me, Swann is slightly better than Ashwin only because swann was a proven performer all over the world which Ashwin hasn't done yet.

Ashwin bowled alright against England last year in England had very good control and wasn't dominated, same goes in Australia where he did bowl well and generally kept a lid on the Aussie bats apart from the time when they were throwing their bats around looking for a declaration.

Ashwin hasn't produced those overseas performances as yet to be considered as one of the greatest off-spinners.
So until he does that I would reserve my judgement. But like as [MENTION=134809]sensible-indian-fan[/MENTION] said he has got all the ingredients to become a great spinner -flight, dip, drift and turn.
Just one thing I would like him to do more especially overseas is use his height to extract more bounce.
In overseas conditions where turn is readily available, bounce is your friend and Ashwin has a good height which should enable him to do that. If he does then there is no reason why he can't average 30 in places like Austraila and South Africa which would be world-class level for off-spinners.

Junaids is talking from a comparative level.

Better dip examples would be Amla (1st test) and Faf dismissals (2nd test).

Don't think he would average 30 in Australia ever. That ship has sailed. Dude averages 56 there playing 6 tests there. At best he can try to make it 30s (mid or late 30s).

And there is a good chance he will continue to be carted around in Aussie pitches if pacers don't step up. Maybe he can come into play in those Adelaide, Sydney or any track with some bit of life but that's it. It was ridiculous to watch him bowl at 2 rpo while at the other end we were leaking at 5-6 rpo. Soon bowlers get tired and they too start getting smashed.

Swann was a performer in Aus and he averaged 39 there. Its a brutal place. At best an offie can hope for is match defining performances. Averages go for a toss there (bowling to Aussies in those pitches is damn hard). Lyon is respected for his performances in those Aussie tracks (I am a bit of Lyon fan too - beautiful action and tosses up the ball). I just wish he was better in Asia (dunno why he doesn't get results in Asia).

 

[Random Aussie]

Lillee took 90% of his wickets in Aus and Eng and 95% of wickets in Aus Eng and NZ.He is a ATG of the game.

Different era. Subcontinent tours were uncommon.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Different era. Subcontinent tours were uncommon.

No.The WI bowlers of that era tour the SC so did English bowlers.Lillee hardly even played in WI.

 

[Random Aussie]

Swann was a performer in Aus and he averaged 39 there. Its a brutal place. At best an offie can hope for is match defining performances. Averages go for a toss there (bowling to Aussies in those pitches is damn hard). Lyon is respected for his performances in those Aussie tracks (I am a bit of Lyon fan too - beautiful action and tosses up the ball). I just wish he was better in Asia (dunno why he doesn't get results in Asia).

Lyon relies much more on bounce than turn, which hurts him outside Oz.

 

[Random Aussie]

No.The WI bowlers of that era tour the SC so did English bowlers.Lillee hardly even played in WI.

So? Whenever he is discussed on here, this gets brought up. What is the point of raising it, other than he is an Australian and I am Australian so apparently I am going to get upset if you bag him.

 

[battler]

Junaids is talking from a comparative level.

Better dip examples would be Amla (1st test) and Faf dismissals (2nd test).

Don't think he would average 30 in Australia ever. That ship has sailed. Dude averages 56 there playing 6 tests there. At best he can try to make it 30s (mid or late 30s).

And there is a good chance he will continue to be carted around in Aussie pitches if pacers don't step up. Maybe he can come into play in those Adelaide, Sydney or any track with some bit of life but that's it. It was ridiculous to watch him bowl at 2 rpo while at the other end we were leaking at 5-6 rpo. Soon bowlers get tired and they too start getting smashed.

Swann was a performer in Aus and he averaged 39 there. Its a brutal place. At best an offie can hope for is match defining performances. Averages go for a toss there (bowling to Aussies in those pitches is damn hard). Lyon is respected for his performances in those Aussie tracks (I am a bit of Lyon fan too - beautiful action and tosses up the ball). I just wish he was better in Asia (dunno why he doesn't get results in Asia).

What I meant is Average about 30 there in the future and not overall. Two overseas tours and his average has taken a beating beyond repair.
The reason why lyon does well in Aus and not Asia is he bowls the same way in Asia as he does in Australia.
In places like Australia flight and bounce are paramount to your success whereas in Asia turn and accuracy will do the trick.
I think for Asia he flights the ball too much and gets carted around as a result. Also he doesn't have a carrom ball or a ball that goes the other way. In Asia variations are important. Case in point Ashwin's dismissal of devilliers in the 2nd innings at Nagpur.
Also Aussie pacers are ineffective in Asia which adds to the pressure. In Australia he plays the role of a support bowler whereas in Asia he has to play the role of their main bowler, it involves a complete change of mindset.

 

[Random Aussie]

What I meant is Average about 30 there in the future and not overall. Two overseas tours and his average has taken a beating beyond repair.
The reason why lyon does well in Aus and not Asia is he bowls the same way in Asia as he does in Australia.
In places like Australia flight and bounce are paramount to your success whereas in Asia turn and accuracy will do the trick.
I think for Asia he flights the ball too much and gets carted around as a result. Also he doesn't have a carrom ball or a ball that goes the other way. In Asia variations are important. Case in point Ashwin's dismissal of devilliers in the 2nd innings at Nagpur.
Also Aussie pacers are ineffective in Asia which adds to the pressure. In Australia he plays the role of a support bowler whereas in Asia he has to play the role of their main bowler, it involves a complete change of mindset.

Good analysis. Lyon has developed a way of bowling in order to survive on Australian wickets but he as yet hasn't shown the ability to adapt to other conditions.

 

[battler]

Good analysis. Lyon has developed a way of bowling in order to survive on Australian wickets but he as yet hasn't shown the ability to adapt to other conditions.

It really isn't easy. I expect him to do better in India next time if he tours.
He would have to change his bowling style in Asia and draw his experiences from the previous tours.

 

[Junaids]

It really isn't easy. I expect him to do better in India next time if he tours.
He would have to change his bowling style in Asia and draw his experiences from the previous tours.

I personally don't rate Lyon at all, because he's a bit like Jadeja - capable of performing only in familiar conditions.

If you think he was bad in India, you should see what he was like in the UAE v Pakistan. To be honest, in Asia I'd go with O'Keefe and Maxwell.

 

[battler]

I personally don't rate Lyon at all, because he's a bit like Jadeja - capable of performing only in familiar conditions.

If you think he was bad in India, you should see what he was like in the UAE v Pakistan. To be honest, in Asia I'd go with O'Keefe and Maxwell.

I think lyon will improve tbh, let see.
Maxwell will be effective on rank-turners but so is anyone who can roll their arm over. Will be cannon fodder on a slow turner though.
Haven't seen much of O'keefe hence not in a position to comment.

 

[Suleiman]

Anil Cookie Crumble played a lot of games you have to remember, as someone said above Ashwin is already 29, but I think he is more dominating than Crumble and will thrash Aussies next time he goes to Australia.

 

[cricketjoshila]

So? Whenever he is discussed on here, this gets brought up. What is the point of raising it, other than he is an Australian and I am Australian so apparently I am going to get upset if you bag him.

Why should you get upset?Lillee is universally regarded as an ATG despite getting 95% of his wickets in Eng Aus NZ.So if Ashwin does the same it shouldnt be an issue.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Good analysis. Lyon has developed a way of bowling in order to survive on Australian wickets but he as yet hasn't shown the ability to adapt to other conditions.

You will always find a way to adapt in your home conditions.

 

[Random Aussie]

Why should you get upset?Lillee is universally regarded as an ATG despite getting 95% of his wickets in Eng Aus NZ.So if Ashwin does the same it shouldnt be an issue.

Ah but it will be......it will be......:yoda: