Will rishwat (bribery) continue in Pakistan now?

[KingKhanWC]

Every time I visit Pakistan I get stopped by a police officer for no reason who wants me to hand over some rupees to him.

Once I went for a ride on bike through a park in Rawalpindi. I was stopped, asked for my vehicle documents and licence which I showed. The police officer then told me he wasnt confident these documents were legitimate, even though my licence was British.

He then told me if I pay, he will let me go otherwise I will be taken to the police station until this is resolved. If refused to pay him saying I've never given money to a police officer in England and i wont here either, so please take me to the police station where I will call a lawyer.

He kept me waiting over an hour, eventually I got bored and called a relative who gave me a phone number of a high ranking police officer in Islamabad. I called him and asked what law I had broken and if he could ask the police officer to explain this to me, I would appreciate it. I passed the phone over and after a very short chat, the police officer passed me the phone back and told me I was free to go.

Now with Imran Khan in power, will police stop me when I visit in a few weeks for money or will they leave this policy of rishwat? If one does stop me, do I say this is 'Naya Pakistan' so I want your details to report you?

@Cpt Rishwat and all.

 

[TM Riddle]

Yar Kuch zyada nahin ho gaya ab?

 

[troodon]

So many expectations from Imran Khan.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Yar Kuch zyada nahin ho gaya ab?

I hope not bro. What's it like in India now? Im sure I read a few years ago there was a big drive to cut this out.

 

[mmkextreme_1]

It will eventually stop as the changes start to trickle down from the top. In saying that don't get your hopes up just yet. This will take years.

Another question is how is the Punjab Police going to function? For the last 10 years+ they have been used as a political tool. Now with the current government this won't be needed. Should be interesting.

 

[Yossarian]

Bribery isn't going to stop.

In your example, it was the policeman asking/demanding to be bribed.

However, reverse the situation where, say, someone was driving in such a manner that he/she was breaking the law and was stopped by a policeman. And the driver took out a few notes and tried to slip them into the policeman's hands to look the other way and let her/him off.

Now apply similar logic to, say, getting your child into the right school, paying a clerk to expedite your case (at the expense of others), .....

That will take decades to stop ... if at all.

 

[TM Riddle]

I hope not bro. What's it like in India now? Im sure I read a few years ago there was a big drive to cut this out.

Bhai it takes decades to improve in this regard. Corruption is deeply ingrained in the psyche of a common Desi so much so that we have come to accept it as a part of our daily life.
You can't expect one man to change this overnight. What Imran can do is to work for strengthening the Democratic institutions in Pakistan by stressing on making 'Right to know' a fundamental right(if it isn't already).
By working towards increasing the transparency and accountablity of state's institutions, he can make sure that the faith of citizens in the govt grows which in the long term will help in eradicating the menace of corruption which permeates all the levels of society right now.
Remember behavioral change is the most important aspect here. It's not just corrupt officials but even the general public which are as much to blame since they have sort of legitimized it by accepting it without any resistance.

It will take time. A lot of time in fact.

 

[venomousx]

Does this happen in kpk?

 

[pakistanisgreat]

i do not think so. But i am hopeful that it would be gone as the time passes. This is a whole mess which would take whole a lot of time to get rid of it. There are people in PTI who's past is not great either.

But i am positive change will happened.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Bhai it takes decades to improve in this regard. Corruption is deeply ingrained in the psyche of a common Desi so much so that we have come to accept it as a part of our daily life.
You can't expect one man to change this overnight. What Imran can do is to work for strengthening the Democratic institutions in Pakistan by stressing on making 'Right to know' a fundamental right(if it isn't already).
By working towards increasing the transparency and accountablity of state's institutions, he can make sure that the faith of citizens in the govt grows which in the long term will help in eradicating the menace of corruption which permeates all the levels of society right now.
Remember behavioral change is the most important aspect here. It's not just corrupt officials but even the general public which are as much to blame since they have sort of legitimized it by accepting it without any resistance.

It will take time. A lot of time in fact.

The thread was a bit of tongue and cheek tbh.

But yes you make a good point, the public are so ingrained with this way of life it will take a while. And it's not just police but all types of officials. It really annoys me as this often starts from the time you arrive at the airport lol

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Imran Khan is a human being not a magician.

 

[Abdul]

Imran Khan is a human being not a magician.

Imran Khan thinks otherwise himself.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Imran Khan is a human being not a magician.

Imran Khan thinks otherwise himself.

I obviously dont expect this to stop overnight and it may never fully die but when the legendary PM has been fighting against corruption, it must make some people think twice about taking bribes. You guys know dont mess with the Great Khan's vision.

 

[kingusama92]

I'd assume the first course of action is to start at the top and make examples of people. You put away higher ranking professionals and it will have a trickle-down effect.

 

[Vegitto1]

Yes and no. There are two types of parties where bribery is involved.

A - Where a criminal is bribing a corrupt official - these types will be difficult to catch out as both parties are willing participants - these exist all over the world and are unlikely to go away.

B - where an officer demands a bribe of an average person - these types of incidents will decrease severely. Furthermore, complaint cells will be introduced so a person can complain about the corrupt officer.

By introducing the NTS in Punjab, like the one in KPK, you will be hiring officers on merit. Honest young officers will likely refuse bribes and this would also go towards reducing corrupting which affects the common man.

Remember, in Punjab you have to pay to get any kind of government post. Therefore, if you are paying 5 to 10 Lacs to get a job, you will engage in corrupt practices to recover that money. The current system promotes corruption.

 

[hussain.r97]

We can't expect Imran Khan to wave a magic wand, and everything to change overnight. Corruption may be cut down on the higher level, but issues like these will take time. This one is not about simply changing a system, it is about changing an entire way of thinking, it will take at least a couple of decades.

 

[moghul]

I'm from Lahore and corruption and rishwat is a culture in Punjab, thanks to Sharifs. I have been to PK in the past and things were not too different there too in the past. But, I have been to KP twice during last 5 years and have been to court also for some property related issue. I can tell you the transparency in KP now is almost at the level of western countries. It was unbelievable. If this can be done in KP, why not all over Pakistan in coming five years of PTI.

 

[TheLastGreatMan]

There is no solution to end bottom level corruption.Many people join Govt job to purely earn bribe as salary will be far less anyway.

 

[PakLFC]

It will take time for things to improve, possibly a few years.

 

[TheLastGreatMan]

One option to reduce corruption is complete digitalisation of government process,this will avoid paying small bribes in most cases.

 

[TQ89]

As much as i hate to say it, bribery has become an integral part of our culture. One reason i think this is because in pakistan, people's salaries don't get incremented much.

Unless you have got a degree or connections, people stay on the same salary for decades (even in private sector) while their responsibility toward their family increases placing even more financial burden on them.

 

[TQ89]

My pathan friends speak highly about Police & court system in KPK which has improved a lot since 2013. I hope Khan gets to do the same in punjab

 

[TQ89]

The thread was a bit of tongue and cheek tbh.

But yes you make a good point, the public are so ingrained with this way of life it will take a while. And it's not just police but all types of officials. It really annoys me as this often starts from the time you arrive at the airport lol

I would never been to pindi airport but i have been to lahore airport many times. Their the CAA officials
& custom agents demand rishwat in front of the cctv cameras when you are going through the luggage counters. As an expat, it sours your mood the moment you land in pakistan.

 

[InziRules]

Even before IK, this has mostly stopped in Karachi

Now they almost always give you a ticket, instead of asking for bribes. Not that it's cheaper, since they always find something to give you a ticket on. Apparently, not having insurance can get you a ticket )

 

[Mamoon]

We need to realize that bribery at the lower/grassroots level can never be eradicated.

A lot of people who take bribery do it not because they are immoral and want to live like kings, but their salaries are not enough to fulfill their basic needs.

However, this corruption out of necessity is not a big problem. It happens in India as well, but it hasn’t stopped them from growing at a rapid rate.

We need to hope that this new government will put Pakistan on the right track, but we also need to be realistic as well.

 

[TheLastGreatMan]

We need to realize that bribery at the lower/grassroots level can never be eradicated.

A lot of people who take bribery do it not because they are immoral and want to live like kings, but their salaries are not enough to fulfill their basic needs.

However, this corruption out of necessity is not a big problem. It happens in India as well, but it hasn’t stopped them from growing at a rapid rate.

We need to hope that this new government will put Pakistan on the right track, but we also need to be realistic as well.

Actually corruption in grass roots not only happen because people are greedy but they already paid money to get these jobs so they have recoup it by any means.

Even developed countries have corruption.

 

[Arham_PakFan]

He can not wave a magic wand and stop every bad thing from happening.

The mess we are in,it will take decades to get out of.But the people themselves also need to change.Proper education,depoliticisation of police and all other non-governmental departments is necessary.Salaries need to be enough for someone so they don’t seek extra cash elesewhere.

 

[Mamoon]

Actually corruption in grass roots not only happen because people are greedy but they already paid money to get these jobs so they have recoup it by any means.

Even developed countries have corruption.

Barring a few exceptions, your common police officer, peon, and other workers who are employed by different government departments didn’t necessarily pay bribes to get those jobs.

A lot of them are honest people who work very hard to get these jobs, but the salaries are not enough to meet their basic needs. These people have no option but engage in some basic corruption to better the lives of their families.

 

[TheLastGreatMan]

He can not wave a magic wand and stop every bad thing from happening.

The mess we are in,it will take decades to get out of.But the people themselves also need to change.Proper education,depoliticisation of police and all other non-governmental departments is necessary.Salaries need to be enough for someone so they don’t seek extra cash elesewhere.

But he need start laying foundation though..especially start digitizing government process as it will take some time to completely achieve this. In India currently they are trying to connect each Panchayat with broadband using fiber network.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...-with-broadband-govt/articleshow/57943455.cms

 

[Loralai]

We need to realize that bribery at the lower/grassroots level can never be eradicated.

A lot of people who take bribery do it not because they are immoral and want to live like kings, but their salaries are not enough to fulfill their basic needs.

However, this corruption out of necessity is not a big problem. It happens in India as well, but it hasn’t stopped them from growing at a rapid rate.

We need to hope that this new government will put Pakistan on the right track, but we also need to be realistic as well.

This is the key to understanding this issue.

A lot of people in Pakistan are in a constant state of financial struggle. Pay them a fair wage and they will have no need to resort to bribery.

 

[TheLastGreatMan]

Barring a few exceptions, your common police officer, peon, and other workers who are employed by different government departments didn’t necessarily pay bribes to get those jobs.

A lot of them are honest people who work very hard to get these jobs, but the salaries are not enough to meet their basic needs. These people have no option but engage in some basic corruption to better the lives of their families.

Salaries are obviously the main concern but many jobs are attained by paying bribe.If 2 equal candidates are there for a job if one guy gives money obviously he will get the job.Its not small percentage.

 

[Mamoon]

Salaries are obviously the main concern but many jobs are attained by paying bribe.If 2 equal candidates are there for a job if one guy gives money obviously he will get the job.Its not small percentage.

That again is a function of necessity. For those people, it is either this job or a life of destitution for them and their families.

 

[TheLastGreatMan]

That again is a function of necessity. For those people, it is either this job or a life of destitution for them and their families.

Agree.Not generalizing people here but just trying to explain some of the root causes.Corruption is not a simple thing as people assume.

 

[Couch Cricketer]

Currently in our system every policeman has to collect and give a set amount to his superior and this goes all the way up so even if person doesnt want to take a bribe he is forced to or loose his job or get posted to a far away place. A large part of this can be curtailed though won't die out completely. Similar corruption systems are in place almost all the government departments catching and cleaning out people from the top would make a huge difference but it will not be an easy task and will take many years.
As far as lower salaried people goes with the decrease in value of the Rupee and the massive inflation we have a fixed salary can never keep up with a person's need. A growing economy where a larger % isbased on exports rather than consumption that we have currently can only change that.

 

[TheLastGreatMan]

Currently in our system every policeman has to collect and give a set amount to his superior and this goes all the way up so even if person doesnt want to take a bribe he is forced to or loose his job or get posted to a far away place. A large part of this can be curtailed though won't die out completely. Similar corruption systems are in place almost all the government departments catching and cleaning out people from the top would make a huge difference but it will not be an easy task and will take many years.
As far as lower salaried people goes with the decrease in value of the Rupee and the massive inflation we have a fixed salary can never keep up with a person's need. A growing economy where a larger % isbased on exports rather than consumption that we have currently can only change that.

I guess Police corruption is very difficult to eradicate as there are not too many solutions.People has to careeful not to break any rules.

 

[yasir]

Lot of day to day intereaction of public servants and public is not necessary. There should not be that many govt jobs, govt does not produce anything, it’s private sector which should be main engine of economy.

In service economy, concept of bribe does not exists, customers are client, you compete to win there business not the other way around.

When you build economy on modern platform, clerks, hawalfar, patwari etc all these jobs are not needed. Govt records are electronic. Traffic is via cameras, govt schools are locality basis, utilities are via private companies...In most cases you don’t even need people forget about govt employees...Govt are generally never good at running business.

If govt tries to create jobs to keep voters happy, that is conflict of interest, because you will create job weather there is need or not. PIA got screwed because of over employment, PTCL had same problem. That’s why in many developed countries 80/20 rule exits, means 80% jobs are in private sector and 20% by govt. in developing world this ratio is reversed. You cannot develop when govt is main employer, govt is not design to focus on innovation and customer excellence, because well they don’t have competition, without competition it’s hard to improve

 

[TheLastGreatMan]

Lot of day to day intereaction of public servants and public is not necessary. There should not be that many govt jobs, govt does not produce anything, it’s private sector which should be main engine of economy.

In service economy, concept of bribe does not exists, customers are client, you compete to win there business not the other way around.

When you build economy on modern platform, clerks, hawalfar, patwari etc all these jobs are not needed. Govt records are electronic. Traffic is via cameras, govt schools are locality basis, utilities are via private companies...In most cases you don’t even need people forget about govt employees...Govt are generally never good at running business.

If govt tries to create jobs to keep voters happy, that is conflict of interest, because you will create job weather there is need or not. PIA got screwed because of over employment, PTCL had same problem. That’s why in many developed countries 80/20 rule exits, means 80% jobs are in private sector and 20% by govt. in developing world this ratio is reversed. You cannot develop when govt is main employer, govt is not design to focus on innovation and customer excellence, because well they don’t have competition, without competition it’s hard to improve ��

Theoretically you are right but if you move all these Govt jobs to private sector at least 70% will lose jobs.

At least in India Govt is one of the biggest employer.

Indian railways alone employs 1.5 Million people (ranked 8th Biggest employer in world..9th is Indian Army),i guess even if we remove 25-30% of these people there will be no effect on day to day operation of Trains

 

[Couch Cricketer]

Lot of day to day intereaction of public servants and public is not necessary. There should not be that many govt jobs, govt does not produce anything, it’s private sector which should be main engine of economy.

In service economy, concept of bribe does not exists, customers are client, you compete to win there business not the other way around.

When you build economy on modern platform, clerks, hawalfar, patwari etc all these jobs are not needed. Govt records are electronic. Traffic is via cameras, govt schools are locality basis, utilities are via private companies...In most cases you don’t even need people forget about govt employees...Govt are generally never good at running business.

If govt tries to create jobs to keep voters happy, that is conflict of interest, because you will create job weather there is need or not. PIA got screwed because of over employment, PTCL had same problem. That’s why in many developed countries 80/20 rule exits, means 80% jobs are in private sector and 20% by govt. in developing world this ratio is reversed. You cannot develop when govt is main employer, govt is not design to focus on innovation and customer excellence, because well they don’t have competition, without competition it’s hard to improve ��

Yeah we need to privatise a lot of stuff but that means losing votes bhutto is considered the bastion of democracy by many but he destroyed a large part of our economic growth by nationalising industries to give people jobs.

 

[Bewal Express]

Every time I visit Pakistan I get stopped by a police officer for no reason who wants me to hand over some rupees to him.

Once I went for a ride on bike through a park in Rawalpindi. I was stopped, asked for my vehicle documents and licence which I showed. The police officer then told me he wasnt confident these documents were legitimate, even though my licence was British.

He then told me if I pay, he will let me go otherwise I will be taken to the police station until this is resolved. If refused to pay him saying I've never given money to a police officer in England and i wont here either, so please take me to the police station where I will call a lawyer.

He kept me waiting over an hour, eventually I got bored and called a relative who gave me a phone number of a high ranking police officer in Islamabad. I called him and asked what law I had broken and if he could ask the police officer to explain this to me, I would appreciate it. I passed the phone over and after a very short chat, the police officer passed me the phone back and told me I was free to go.

Now with Imran Khan in power, will police stop me when I visit in a few weeks for money or will they leave this policy of rishwat? If one does stop me, do I say this is 'Naya Pakistan' so I want your details to report you?

@Cpt Rishwat and all.

That is not going to change quickly. As a young in the fruit
Farms of Evesham , I was ear wigging a conversation between a visitor from PK and one of our older workers about his son joining the Police and a sum of 6 lakh was mentioned, me in my naivety thought that it was the pay, they both laughed when i asked if that was what you got paid, no our visitor said, its what you have to pay to join the Police.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Eventually yes, perhaps when the kids lock me up in an old people's home and the hands become too arthritic to type quickly. But for now the fight for truth and justice must go on.

 

[Prince of Pakistan]

You can't change the culture in 100 days. It's been going on for more than 70 years. People in Pak take or give rishwat with a big smile as if it's a big prize. It's normal for most of them.

They will tackle big corruption first and then with time people will be afraid of doing or accepting anything unlawful. Just like the NAB now who is targeting the biggest goons in the country in order to send a message.

 

[saeedhk]

This will take years if not decades to stop. I do, however, expect corruption to decrease significantly in government departments such as NADRA, FIA and FBR.

 

[Adijazz1706]

A top down approach is better than a bottom up one in this case

 

[KingKhanWC]

We need to realize that bribery at the lower/grassroots level can never be eradicated.

A lot of people who take bribery do it not because they are immoral and want to live like kings, but their salaries are not enough to fulfill their basic needs.

However, this corruption out of necessity is not a big problem. It happens in India as well, but it hasn’t stopped them from growing at a rapid rate.

We need to hope that this new government will put Pakistan on the right track, but we also need to be realistic as well.

Fair point but they are then taking money off people who are also on low wages. I think it is a big problem for an ordinary family who need every rupee but have to give some away in the form of bribery.

 

[PakWarrior]

If Imran strengthens all institutions with accountability of this highest order, then I believe we can see a huge reduction in bribery within the next one to two years.

If anyone can, Imran Khan.

 

[yasir]

Theoretically you are right but if you move all these Govt jobs to private sector at least 70% will lose jobs.

At least in India Govt is one of the biggest employer.

Indian railways alone employs 1.5 Million people (ranked 8th Biggest employer in world..9th is Indian Army),i guess even if we remove 25-30% of these people there will be no effect on day to day operation of Trains

Yeah we need to privatise a lot of stuff but that means losing votes bhutto is considered the bastion of democracy by many but he destroyed a large part of our economic growth by nationalising industries to give people jobs.

This is a challenge not by asian countries but by all future human civilizations. Those two are opposite goals, improving and scaling the quality of service Or employing people??

Technology solves 'quality of service' far better than people. If you focus on employing people, that is basically a form of welfare benefit and will hinder Quality of Service you intend to improve.
Ou
As we evolve and get civilized, our problems get more complex, we drift away from natural world. Our dependency on Tech increases, we will invest more on it not less. Actually when you are educating people, that itself is investment in Technology not necessarily in people.

Take an example of Election system quality improvement: You can hire 100 thousand people and try to everything manually Or use Tech to make system smarter and reliable. Later would require far less people, and also improve the quality by and order of magnitude more than the earlier model. Earlier model would be geared towards welfare of people(giving them job and what not)...This is just one example, true for most cases, people and govt will be force to invest in Tech centric solution, because they yield results. There may be different welfare models that will evolve rather than polluting quality...

 

[KingKhanWC]

Driving back from GIGA mall in the evening was stopped by the police. After being asked to step out of the car the officer asked if he could search us to which we replied sure. He then looked at my watch & said what work do you do? I told him im from england on holiday to see Naya Pakistan. He smiled at me, said 'you can see now', shook my hand & said you are free to go now

 

[cric_man]

This is the key to understanding this issue.

A lot of people in Pakistan are in a constant state of financial struggle. Pay them a fair wage and they will have no need to resort to bribery.

Motorway Police is the best example. For over 25 years they have been able to keep a high standard. Just because you have decently paid officers who have been selected on merit and trained properly. I have been told, they have issued speeding tickets to sitting MNAs and calmly handed over their cards to contact their superiors if they wished to do so.