With just 4 universities in top 1,000, Pakistan falls in world rankings this year

[Abdullah719]

Four Pakistani universities have made it to the 14th annual edition of the Times Higher Education World University Rankings this year.

The rankings reflect a decline from last year's list, which included seven Pakistani institutes among the top 1,000 in the world.

Of the four, only Quaid-i-Azam University (QAU) is among the top 500 universities. The shift into the 401-500 cohort for QAU is an improvement from its position in the 601-800 band in last year's rankings.

Other Pakistani universities in the top 1,000 include COMSATS Institute of Information Technology, the National University of Sciences and Technology in the 601-800 band, and the University of Agriculture, Faisalabad in the 801+ group.

In this year's rankings, Pakistan fell far behind its neighbours; 60 institutions from China, 30 from India and 11 from Iran were on the list.

Times Higher Education Global Rankings Editorial Director Phil Baty said the lack of Pakistani institutions in the rankings is "disappointing". He attributed the low representation of local universities to a "lack of funding".

He expressed hope that the increased funding by China would "enable Pakistan to improve its performance in the table in future years".

"The China-Pakistan Economic Corridor unveiled by Chinese president Xi Jinping in 2013 and now in its first phase of implementation has been touted as a potential way for Pakistan to build the technological capacity of its universities," he said.

He lauded the improvement in the ranking of QAU saying that the "big rise is impressive given the global competition".

Evaluation and assessment expert Shagufta Shahzadi, however, wondered why Pakistan’s premier institutes like Aga Khan University, the Lahore University of Management Sciences, National University of Modern Languages, Beaconhouse National University, FAST, Lahore School of Economics, the Institute of Business Administration and the Ghulam Ishaq Khan Institute of Engineering Sciences and Technology never appeared in the world ranking despite having an excellent job market.

University of Oxford retained the top spot in the rankings, followed by the University of Cambridge, the California Institute of Technology and Stanford University, the last two jointly occupying the third spot.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1355788

 

[Napa]

This list is for the uneducated. It has only 30 univs from India. There are 23 IITs to begin with. Add to this the top medical colleges. Then there are the top science and liberal arts colleges. The top tier of Indian univs would also include the grad schools like the IIMs. These form the top tier of Indian universities and are at least 60 in number.

In the next tier of Indian univs are colleges like the Manipal Institute of Technology. Guess who is a graduate? No less than Microsoft's CEO Satya Nadella.

How many graduates from Oxford and Cambridge are CEOs of the world's ten largest firms? Likely zero.

IIT graduates far outnumber Oxbridge graduates in the top consulting firms like McKinsey and BCG.

This list has been produced by not very well informed Brits.

 

[Sidilicious]

This list is for the uneducated. It has only 30 univs from India. There are 23 IITs to begin with. Add to this the top medical colleges. Then there are the top science and liberal arts colleges. The top tier of Indian univs would also include the grad schools like the IIMs. These form the top tier of Indian universities and are at least 60 in number.

In the next tier of Indian univs are colleges like the Manipal Institute of Technology. Guess who is a graduate? No less than Microsoft's CEO Satya Nadella.

How many graduates from Oxford and Cambridge are CEOs of the world's ten largest firms? Likely zero.

IIT graduates far outnumber Oxbridge graduates in the top consulting firms like McKinsey and BCG.

This list has been produced by not very well informed Brits.

Firstly, thats **.

Secondly, you are comparing apples and oranges
Oxbridge has a total of 6500 undergraduate students start university every year in all disciplines in both universities combined.
IITs have 11000 start undergrad every year only in engineering.

Oxbridge students enter multiple disciplines and thus consulting is the goal of only a fraction of students. For IITs management consulting are a main source of employment after engineering.

Finally, having worked in Investment banking and now in an industry where I work closely with consultants from MBB (and having worked in the UK, France and Germany) I do not come across students from IIT as often as I come across those from Oxbridge. Even those who are from IITs, generally have gone on to obtain a masters in a British university before joining MBB or an IB.

I am not saying IITs are useless. They are really good, and the engineers can be compared to the engineers of Oxbridge, but IITs as a university is no where near Oxbridge or even other Russel group universities (Ivy League of UK). There is a serious lack of research in the IITs as compared to most European and American universities.

Also, just because Satya Nadela comes from Manipal, does not make Manipal one of the best. Look at this education post Manipal. I believe he has an MBA from Columbia or Booth.

 

[Napa]

Oxbridge has a total of 6500 undergraduate students start university every year in all disciplines in both universities combined.
IITs have 11000 start undergrad every year only in engineering.

The ranking should be based on the total number produced, not on the average. That makes your point invalid.

Oxbridge students enter multiple disciplines and thus consulting is the goal of only a fraction of students. For IITs management consulting are a main source of employment after engineering.

Management consulting main source of employment for IIT grads? You have no clue. Also in today's world, the two most sought after professions by top students everywhere after graduation are management consulting and finance.

Finally, having worked in Investment banking and now in an industry where I work closely with consultants from MBB (and having worked in the UK, France and Germany) I do not come across students from IIT as often as I come across those from Oxbridge. Even those who are from IITs, generally have gone on to obtain a masters in a British university before joining MBB or an IB.

IITians almost always head to the US rather than Europe. Last I knew, only one of my classmates was in Europe and 30 were in the US.

I am not saying IITs are useless. They are really good, and the engineers can be compared to the engineers of Oxbridge, but IITs as a university is no where near Oxbridge or even other Russel group universities (Ivy League of UK). There is a serious lack of research in the IITs as compared to most European and American universities.

Research is a different matter, IITians outperform Oxbridge graduates when it comes to career accomplishments.

Also, just because Satya Nadela comes from Manipal, does not make Manipal one of the best. Look at this education post Manipal. I believe he has an MBA from Columbia or Booth.

He got his MBA from Booth, at his time simply known as GSB. However, he is still a product of Manipal.

 

[PetroDollars]

What rubbish,

How does Quid-e-Azam Uni or COMSATS come ahead of LUMS, even FAST-NU is far better than both as is UET.

LUMS is by far the best uni in the country.

 

[Stewie]

I do t get the hate LUMS gets either.. it's never in any top ranking when they are so coveted in Pakistan and considered a very prestigious institution

 

[JaDed]

IITians being hailed for working in Business firms,well that itself should show what a failure it has been,would be better if IIT or IIMs get some Business course where JEE is the entrance criteria.

 

[Slog]

This list is for the uneducated. It has only 30 univs from India. There are 23 IITs to begin with. Add to this the top medical colleges. Then there are the top science and liberal arts colleges. The top tier of Indian univs would also include the grad schools like the IIMs. These form the top tier of Indian universities and are at least 60 in number.

In the next tier of Indian univs are colleges like the Manipal Institute of Technology. Guess who is a graduate? No less than Microsoft's CEO Satya Nadella.

How many graduates from Oxford and Cambridge are CEOs of the world's ten largest firms? Likely zero.

IIT graduates far outnumber Oxbridge graduates in the top consulting firms like McKinsey and BCG.

This list has been produced by not very well informed Brits.

Since when is becoming a CEO of a large firm an indicator of academic success/

Your logic is pretty one dimensional and narrow but not unexpected

University graduates from Oxbridge are likely pursuing more intellectual endeavors which provide fulfilment rather than being monkeys churning out spreadsheets

Only instance where post-graduation salary numbers matter signficantly are business schools

 

[Slog]

I checked on Satya Nadella's credentials and the guy has a Masters from Univ of Wisconsin, then US experience and then an MBA from Booth

Its hilarious that youre seriously trying to make a case that Manipal school is responsible for his career trajectory rather than these illustrious schools.

 

[Slog]

I checked on Satya Nadella's credentials and the guy has a Masters from Univ of Wisconsin, then US experience and then an MBA from Booth

Its hilarious that youre seriously trying to make a case that Manipal school is responsible for his career trajectory rather than these illustrious schools.

To ADD TO THIS

This guy has ZERO years of work experience in India

He got a B.S. degree and then made a run for it

 

[maxamax]

Because in Pakistan, even in world up to some extent, there is a conflict of interest between universities and career of students.

Most of the Pakistanis are either in lower or middle class families. Their top priority is to earn for their families. Universities are not made for that. They are made to contribute in the field of knowledge, which may or may not bring huge money. Since Pakistan is a developing country, there is very little useful research happening in organizations. Even if university is able to make you a good researcher, it will be very little useful in Pakistan as most of the companies here ask for skills instead of research - something that a small street institute like NICON can hand you better than a university.

Now if you're among the top 2-3 universities of Pakistan, you're also forced to learn such skills in order to survive among the top-folks which can be helpful post-graduation. But in all the medium ranked universities, its nothing but a joke. Neither they're producing quality research nor they are handing skills like a small-college can (I am speaking for my tech background). Most of the graduates you'll see from such universities will only have C#/ASP/PHP/MYSQL on their CVs as their skill-set which is worthless these days. Parents do need to realize that they cant be wasting so much of their money over such degrees only for the sake of 'parhay likhay bachay'. They need to accept the fact that such universities are worthless. Either go for a proper quality research institute or couple of short courses from colleges are more than enough to turn one's development gears on.

What rubbish,

How does Quid-e-Azam Uni or COMSATS come ahead of LUMS, even FAST-NU is far better than both as is UET.

LUMS is by far the best uni in the country.

Agreed. I've been to QAU, Comsats, MAJU, FAST, GIKI. and I study in NUST. QAU sucks big time. I'd rather prefer CASE, UET or even Comsats over QAU. Their courses are as old as Pakistan. The ambiance is a typical corrupt one. Hardly saw any useful research coming from there. I guess they pad themselves with loads of *social-sciences* sort of research to gain such ranking.

LUMS on the other hand got the best learning mindset in Pakistan. Even for a technical degree it focuses on pure research unlike FAST, Comsats etc. who are still stuck with data structures, OS, databases sort of stuff. Only NUST's able to compete LUMS in terms of academic abilities and contributions (I can only talk about technical side). However, thanks to army's nepotism, NUST is also falling down with each year and instead of sharing good work, all they can talk about now is that they're in top-1000 of world.

PIEAS is another good place which is not even counted in the ranking.

But honestly speaking, there are only 2-3 universities in Pakistan worthy to be called university. I would not suggest parents to waste their huge money over **/MS if your children is not going to those 2-3 institutes.

 

[Napa]

Since when is becoming a CEO of a large firm an indicator of academic success/

Your logic is pretty one dimensional and narrow but not unexpected

<b>University graduates from Oxbridge are likely pursuing more intellectual endeavors which provide fulfilment rather than being monkeys churning out spreadsheets</b>

Only instance where post-graduation salary numbers matter signficantly are business schools

This has to be the most pretentious while also naive thing I have heard in a long long time.

Undergrads are the same the world over. Most of them just want the most prestigious jobs which coincidentally are also the highest paying jobs upon graduation.

Intellectual endeavors like postmodern theory of blah blah I suppose...

 

[Slog]

This has to be the most pretentious while also naive thing I have heard in a long long time.

Undergrads are the same the world over. Most of them just want the most prestigious jobs upon graduation.

Intellectual endeavors like postmodern theory of blah blah I suppose...

cant expect an indian grad to understand that

 

[Napa]

cant expect an indian grad to understand that

Apparently the later degrees from the Ivies didn't help me much either.

No one who lives in the real world values postmodern claptrap.

The current reputation of Oxford and Cambridge is mainly due to their undergrad degrees. And on that criteria the IITs beat them as their grads do better later. If grad education and research (especially in the sciences) was the criteria, then Oxbridge comes nowhere near Princeton, Harvard, Chicago, Stanford etc. They are probably also behind German and Swiss institutions.

 

[Napa]

To ADD TO THIS

This guy has ZERO years of work experience in India

He got a B.S. degree and then made a run for it

There is a pattern here that you are failing to see. Indian grads are the CEOs of MS, Google, Pepsi etc. An objective assessment must therefore give credit to Indian universities, no matter what education these grads received later. And this particular list has to be based on the undergrad degrees rather than the grad degrees.

US lists usually put Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT and Stanford as the top five, and that is a much more accurate assessment than the British list. Though all lists are parochial, there is a reason why IIT grads choose US universities over European ones, and why Silicon Valley is based in the US rather than Europe.

 

[Slog]

US lists usually put Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT and Stanford as the top five, and that is a much more accurate assessment than the British list. Though all lists are parochial, there is a reason why IIT grads choose US universities over European ones, and why Silicon Valley is based in the US rather than Europe.

thats because the size of the economy and the resultant employment opportunities available

generally yes US unis>UK ones obviously

 

[Slog]

There is a pattern here that you are failing to see. Indian grads are the CEOs of MS, Google, Pepsi etc. An objective assessment must therefore give credit to Indian universities, no matter what education these grads received later. And this particular list has to be based on the undergrad degrees rather than the grad degrees.
.

Then you should be able to come up with examples of Indians who did the same without a MS or MBA.

I am not doubting the capacity of these individuals. But the opportunities came because of these grad schools rather than undergrad.

You can say that these top grad schools do give weight to Indian unis over most other unis outside of western europe and UK

the quantum of indian applicants will always be higher

 

[GBK_Fan]

This list is for the uneducated. It has only 30 univs from India. There are 23 IITs to begin with. Add to this the top medical colleges. Then there are the top science and liberal arts colleges. The top tier of Indian univs would also include the grad schools like the IIMs. These form the top tier of Indian universities and are at least 60 in number.

In the next tier of Indian univs are colleges like the Manipal Institute of Technology. Guess who is a graduate? No less than Microsoft's CEO Satya Nadella.

How many graduates from Oxford and Cambridge are CEOs of the world's ten largest firms? Likely zero.

IIT graduates far outnumber Oxbridge graduates in the top consulting firms like McKinsey and BCG.

This list has been produced by not very well informed Brits.

Bhai have you been to any of the other IITs? We could not recruit one guy from Guwahati and the one in Rajasthan. We then gave up and stuck to the first 6.

 

[Sidilicious]

To ADD TO THIS

This guy has ZERO years of work experience in India

He got a B.S. degree and then made a run for it

I checked on Satya Nadella's credentials and the guy has a Masters from Univ of Wisconsin, then US experience and then an MBA from Booth

Its hilarious that youre seriously trying to make a case that Manipal school is responsible for his career trajectory rather than these illustrious schools.

Exactly, IITs might be good, but they do not compete with the Ivy League and Oxbridge.

 

[karthikc]

Pathetic that Indian universities cant make it to top 200.

Just compare with China where so many Universities are now getting noticed. Throw in Hong Kong Universities and you have an even better figure

 

[Slog]

Exactly, IITs might be good, but they do not compete with the Ivy League and Oxbridge.

just to add a disclaimer: obv no one is denying that they are great for india.

Btw werent the actual purpose of IITs to focus on research output and science?

 

[Syed1]

To ADD TO THIS

This guy has ZERO years of work experience in India

He got a B.S. degree and then made a run for it

I don't know why but I lost it on this statement )

 

[Syed1]

LUMS surely has to be in the top 1000 atleast. It is the best university in Pakistan. I'm also surprised IBA didn't make it to the top 1000. Both are pretty good universities and have resulted in quite a few illustrious Pakistanis. I know for a fact that the LUMS start-up incubator (forget the actual name) has resulted in several promising startups that have secured multi-million dollar funding from investors at home and abroad.


NUST being there is a good sign. It is undoubtedly the best engineering university in Pakistan. However, we need to significantly improve the capacity of the other top notch engineering universities such as NED, GIKI, UET etc..

 

[Syed1]

Pakistan was making tremendous strides in higher education under Mush and his HEC that was run by Dr. Atta-ur-Rehman (one of the best Pakistanis ever), but unfortunately democracy came back with a vengeance.


As they say, "democracy is the best revenge"

 

[Slog]

Pakistan was making tremendous strides in higher education under Mush and his HEC that was run by Dr. Atta-ur-Rehman (one of the best Pakistanis ever), but unfortunately democracy came back with a vengeance.


As they say, "democracy is the best revenge"

Yep

Ata ur Rehman was a great guy. I read about his initiatives recently and he really cared and sincerely wanted to do work

 

[Major]

But arnt lums and iba only known for their business program?

NUST has army nepotism. It is a good uni, but if you are paying cadet yoh could get into it with low marks compared to others

 

[JaDed]

IIT IS not great for India IIMs yeah maybe ,Indian institute of science defn,IIT runs on Central funding which is a disaster if they are to move abroad anyway.

 

[Napa]

To ADD TO THIS

This guy has ZERO years of work experience in India

He got a B.S. degree and then made a run for it

I don't know why but I lost it on this statement )

Very poor reasoning skills. The fact that Nadella left after his bachelors is indicative of the <b>disparity in opportunities in India and in the West after graduation.</b>

Manipal gets credit for educating Nadella. Whatever happens after graduation is external to Manipal.

 

[Donal Cozzie]

My university in top 250

That being said generally these university rankings tend to be fairly flawed.

End of the day its not the university that makes you, but rather the lecturers, the work you put in and your own effort.

 

[Napa]

Bhai have you been to any of the other IITs? We could not recruit one guy from Guwahati and the one in Rajasthan. We then gave up and stuck to the first 6.

There are many issues here. Firstly, your firm may not have been a top target for students looking for jobs and you only got to see the second rate students. Secondly, many top students probably left for grad school.

While the top 6 IITs may still be better than the rest, the fact is that all students got through the JEE. So the quality of grads would be pretty good at all IITs.

 

[Napa]

Then you should be able to come up with examples of Indians who did the same without a MS or MBA.

1. Due to their growing reputation, firms like Google, MS, McKinsey etc. now recruit undergrads directly from the top IITs. There are about 50 to 70 universities around the world for which this is true. That should immediately tell you about the employer's perception of the quality of IITians. Direct recruitment by such firms was not there 20 years ago, and it will take the current cohort a few more decades to move to the top positions, but it will happen.

2. Most grads even from other top universities also do not rely on only their undergrad degrees but go for grad degrees.

I am not doubting the capacity of these individuals. But the opportunities came because of these grad schools rather than undergrad.

You can say that these top grad schools do give weight to Indian unis over most other unis outside of western europe and UK

the quantum of indian applicants will always be higher

It is the quality of the grads which gets them admission to start with. Just like the amount of Indian grads being accepted by top grad programs is higher, it logically follows that more Indian univs should be in the list of top undergrad schools.

 

[Syed1]

1. Due to their growing reputation, firms like Google, MS, McKinsey etc. now recruit undergrads directly from the top IITs. There are about 50 to 70 universities around the world for which this is true. That should immediately tell you about the employer's perception of the quality of IITians. Direct recruitment by such firms was not there 20 years ago, and it will take the current cohort a few more decades to move to the top positions, but it will happen.

LMAO... My cousins got hired from a little unknown university called FAST in Pakistan directly to Microsoft after their undergrad all the way back in mid 90s. If that is your criteria for supposedly the best IITs then please try again. FAST doesn't even feature in the top 1000 universities in the world and every year Microsoft hires from there. Recently I was told Google has also started showing up.

 

[Napa]

LMAO... My cousins got hired from a little unknown university called FAST in Pakistan directly to Microsoft after their undergrad all the way back in mid 90s. If that is your criteria for supposedly the best IITs then please try again. FAST doesn't even feature in the top 1000 universities in the world and every year Microsoft hires from there. Recently I was told Google has also started showing up.

Obviously you do not understand that a sprawling organization like MS recruits at many different levels and for many different functions.

 

[Napa]

LMAO... My cousins got hired from a little unknown university called FAST in Pakistan directly to Microsoft after their undergrad all the way back in mid 90s. If that is your criteria for supposedly the best IITs then please try again. FAST doesn't even feature in the top 1000 universities in the world and every year Microsoft hires from there. Recently I was told Google has also started showing up.

IITians are now recruited directly for the top tier jobs. And it is also a question of the number of such recruits, not possibly isolated instances like "my cousin".

For all I know FAST may be a great univ. I have no idea about the quality of Pakistani univs and therefore I have stayed away from making any judgement about them. My posts have been about something I know, that is the quality of the Indian univs.

I would say that the Pakistanis I have met professionally were about the same as Indian Punjabis and Sindhis, so I would expect many of them to be quite successful professionally.

 

[Kaptan]

There are various criteria on which these universities are ranked.
IITs score low because of high student-staff ratio, less number of international students and very high male-female ratio.
In other areas IITs scores good.

 

[Napa]

There are various criteria on which these universities are ranked.
IITs score low because of high student-staff ratio, less number of international students and very high male-female ratio.
In other areas IITs scores good.

Thanks for researching this, it shows the silliness of this ranking.

According to this stupid list, to be higher ranked IIT's need to abandon the objective criteria for admission (JEE) and add more affirmative action admissions (to the already existing ones for SC/STs) for women and international students. Thanks, but no thanks

Also the staff-student ratio in IITs is low, but the students don't care. IITians do not expect the kind of hand-holding you get in US liberal colleges like Amherst, which also ask for tuition that is 100X IIT's.

 

[GBK_Fan]

There are many issues here. Firstly, your firm may not have been a top target for students looking for jobs and you only got to see the second rate students. Secondly, many top students probably left for grad school.

While the top 6 IITs may still be better than the rest, the fact is that all students got through the JEE. So the quality of grads would be pretty good at all IITs.

We were hiring for the quant team of an American IB. Tell me what tier does it fall under?

Also you have got to be kidding me if you insist that every kid from IIT is good. Did you interact with the Mech or the masters students?

 

[ahsan17]

The universities that tend to do well in these rankings are those that do research in a broad range of subjects and offer degrees in a broad range of subjects, and then they consider the performance of the universities in those subjects. Universities that are slightly more specialized will not fare as well.

Perfect example - University of Waterloo. It's engineering and computer science program is considered among the top in North America, usually just behind Stanford and MIT. It has excellent research in those areas and produces the most number of graduates after Stanford that go on to work in Silicon Valley. Its graduates have created dozens of start ups, many of which have gone up to become companies that have had $1 billion or more in revenue. And yet it generally does not do well in these rankings. Major reason is because it does not have much of a liberal arts and business program. In a more fair ranking it should be in the top 100, but that's not the case.

 

[Napa]

We were hiring for the quant team of an American IB. Tell me what tier does it fall under?

Also you have got to be kidding me if you insist that every kid from IIT is good. Did you interact with the Mech or the masters students?

The quant team of an American IB sounds nice, but not quite as nice as a management consulting job. Basically anyone joining a quant team will at some point have to either do an MBA (and top MBA programs do not like applicants with quant job very much) or somehow find another job that lets them move to the front. Believe me, being stuck in the back office is not an IITian's dream.

Generally speaking, while IITians are good with numbers, they haven't struck me as being nerds. There is a phenomenal number of them who are marketing professors, and marketing is the intersection of numbers and the real world. Best suited for quant jobs are Physics PhDs rather than IITians.

 

[Slog]

The quant team of an American IB sounds nice, but not quite as nice as a management consulting job. Basically anyone joining a quant team will at some point have to either do an MBA (and top MBA programs do not like applicants with quant job very much) or somehow find another job that lets them move to the front. Believe me, being stuck in the back office is not an IITian's dream.

Generally speaking, while IITians are good with numbers, they haven't struck me as being nerds. There is a phenomenal number of them who are marketing professors, and marketing is the intersection of numbers and the real world. Best suited for quant jobs are Physics PhDs rather than IITians.

IITian 'do not strike you as nerds?'

Ive heard everything )

 

[Napa]

IITian 'do not strike you as nerds?'

Ive heard everything )

I will humbly submit that I have a little more experience with IITians than you do.

 

[Buffet]

I will humbly submit that I have a little more experience with IITians than you do.

By any chance are you from an IIT? Not many folks like to be called nerd


All jokes aside, I have interacted with many IITians. Based on what I know, IIT's don't do much. Students do normally well later and that's due to some national level exam taking top 1-2% of students in IIT. If you are going to select top 1-2% based on some test in any country then that group is guaranteed to do better than average by some margin.

 

[JaDed]

IITian 'do not strike you as nerds?'

Ive heard everything )

They aren't,they are some of the most brutal students not at the start but yes at end of year 4,I lived next to one and used to go their for getting tuitions,and there student politics ,booze, drugs, rock are a huge part of life, they are not nerds not scientific at least and that's why IIT has actually failed because most of the IIT grads at least the one near my home poked fun at the ones that did research and were into making money or getting powerful positions.

 

[karthikc]

There are various criteria on which these universities are ranked.
IITs score low because of high student-staff ratio, less number of international students and very high male-female ratio.
In other areas IITs scores good.

LOL..what about the quality of research output..Sir IIT's will not figure in any of the global rankings in top 200..It is a fact..They are good in the aspect of quality of undergraduate students..thats all

 

[Napa]

By any chance are you from an IIT? Not many folks like to be called nerd

I am from an IIT and I don't mind being called a nerd, though I do not think I am one

All jokes aside, I have interacted with many IITians. Based on what I know, IIT's don't do much. Students do normally well later and that's due to some national level exam taking top 1-2% of students in IIT. If you are going to select top 1-2% based on some test in any country then that group is guaranteed to do better than average by some margin.

I think your point is that the institutions of IITs themselves do not add much value, rather they get very good students. You are correct.

About 40% of the professors in the IITs were quite bad, about 40% were good and 20% were very good. Our textbooks (usually by American publishers) were very good and the exams were hard. So we read the textbooks and took the exams, the quality of the professor was not critical.

The same can be said about other top universities. Yale, Harvard and Princeton attract top students and it is not clear is there is a great deal of value added by these institutions as such. Especially when the students are taking courses in African-American History and Gender Studies. Mercifully the number of social science courses that we had to do in the IITs was about 5 out of 32.

 

[Napa]

LOL..what about the quality of research output..Sir IIT's will not figure in any of the global rankings in top 200..It is a fact..They are good in the aspect of quality of undergraduate students..thats all

The IITs have the reputation that they do because of their students, not their professors.

Research is a red herring, when you join an institution the thing that you care about is what job you will get after graduating or what grad school you will get admission to. Research benefits the society at large, not the undergrads in particular.

 

[Napa]

They aren't,they are some of the most brutal students not at the start but yes at end of year 4,I lived next to one and used to go their for getting tuitions,and there student politics ,booze, drugs, rock are a huge part of life, they are not nerds not scientific at least and that's why IIT has actually failed <b>because most of the IIT grads at least the one near my home poked fun at the ones that did research and were into making money or getting powerful positions</b>.

There is some truth in that. Some IITians (not the majority) I know achieved less than they could because of the feeling that they had already "made it" by getting into the IITs.

 

[Diffusion]

I reckon the average social intelligence of an Oxbridge graduate is higher than an IIT graduate - in fact, I'd argue it's above any school.

Perfect grades don't land you a place at Oxbridge (they're just a given, and a lot of students not at Oxbridge achieve similar), you have to be the complete package personality wise too. Confident, engaging, inquisitive, analytical with some social and global awareness. It's an all-round smartness which is pretty rare.

 

[MMHS]

I think, the rating system isn't fair to 3rd or 2nd world countries. One of the biggest factor used in such rating is the salary of Grads & the company profile of their job, which gives unfair advantages to western, particularly North American universities. In past, these ranks were dominated by US& to an extent Canadian universities, but after Euro, job market for European uni grads has expanded, and we can see European universities, business schools like INSEAD are rocking higher positions. One example I can give is that, at IMA, for an MBA program, it takes about 750 GMAT score, which actually can earn a full scholarship even at HBS, MBA program. Similarly, for foreign students (or A level local students), IBA, Dhaka University asks for 650, with the last score few years back to enter a full program was probably 690 - that score'll take anyone into MBA program at Rotman or Schulich.

Another factor here is that, these university rankings are done for the latest degree. Lot's of Asian students do undergrad, BSc engineering, MBBS in local universities, but they do Ms, MBA, PhD in US or European universities and it's listed as their institution. This has a logic though, because hardly anyone without such higher education won't have entered the job they are in now, but still the basic at under grad level is developed from his native institution - it's true that Sundar Pichai is an IIT, Kharagpur undergrad.

I can give one such example in my family - one of my maternal uncle is now a VP in R&D of Intel, based in Santa Clara, involved in their microprocessor designing. That gentleman, completed his Masters in applied physics, not even from Dhaka University (from a divisional town university), but he obtained almost unreal numbers & ended up at Stanford, where he had to re do his Masters to enter in PhD program. Sadly, last he came back home was 2002 & doesn't identify his previous Universities - invited in his University convocation, at University's cost - he declined. Now he is an US passport holder & didn't renew his BD passport upon expire.

Education quality in South Asia, particularly Indian top institutions are quite good, compared to anywhere in world. I have seen two similar aged/experienced grad working together, one reporting other - both engineer, MBA, major in finance - one from Rotman & one from IMA, Amedabad - sadly the Indian guy is a Manager & the Canadian guy in Sr. Director.

 

[sshakir411]

I don't know how LUMS does in Pakistan but they do have a few people every year who are placed at tier 1 firms in the Middle East...although these guys are second picks after these firms are done hiring Arabs from American University of Cairo and Beirut. The only Pakistani university I know for a fact places med school grads in to residency at Harvard is Aga Khan. A white Dr. from Boston told me Harvard will take kids from Aga Khan with no questions asked...(this was in 2009 though)

 

[Napa]

I reckon the average social intelligence of an Oxbridge graduate is higher than an IIT graduate - in fact, I'd argue it's above any school.

Perfect grades don't land you a place at Oxbridge (they're just a given, and a lot of students not at Oxbridge achieve similar), you have to be the complete package personality wise too. Confident, engaging, inquisitive, analytical with some social and global awareness. It's an all-round smartness which is pretty rare.

I have no idea how Oxbridge selects their students, quite honestly I always thought they were rather irrelevant in the 21st century and did not pay a lot of attention to them. They have some nice old buildings and if you are faculty you can sit on the high table and drink sherry, but that seems to be as exciting as it gets.

I am however intimately aware of how the IITs select their students. It is through the JEE exam with fairly advanced Math/Physics/Chemistry questions. Bullshi***s (aka social intelligence) who may impress in interviews stand no chance with faced with this exam.

 

[Slog]

I can give one such example in my family - one of my maternal uncle is now a VP in R&D of Intel, based in Santa Clara, involved in their microprocessor designing. That gentleman, completed his Masters in applied physics, not even from Dhaka University (from a divisional town university), but he obtained almost unreal numbers & ended up at Stanford, where he had to re do his Masters to enter in PhD program. Sadly, last he came back home was 2002 & doesn't identify his previous Universities - invited in his University convocation, at University's cost - he declined. Now he is an US passport holder & didn't renew his BD passport upon expire.

This is precisely what I mean.

Im sure the IIT grads in top posts in MNCs give credit to their Masters and MBA alma maters than their Indian degrees

 

[Slog]

I don't know why but I lost it on this statement )

its clear the idea was to get a degree and go for Masters.

if you see he did his Masters from a mid tier US uni because thats prolly where he got in immmediately post Indian bachelors.

But his MBA was from a top place because by then he had a US uni and work experience in the US to back up his case

 

[Slog]

Very poor reasoning skills. The fact that Nadella left after his bachelors is indicative of the <b>disparity in opportunities in India and in the West after graduation.</b>

Manipal gets credit for educating Nadella. Whatever happens after graduation is external to Manipal.

You do know who makes these opportunities? The Indians themselves

So lack of opportunities mean that Indian unis arent producing enough entrepreneurs or people with good ideas to start great ventures. And as evident by your posts its evident that they churn out dime a dozen, the prototype of 9-5 desk job monkeys.

Even the recent startup culture India has seen is due to Indian expats in the US returning back and using the education and experience they gained in the West

 

[amax]

Not arguing with that we arent far behind when it comes to Higher Education, We are.

But these overall rankings dont give a complete picture of how things stand on particular subjects many good Pakistani universities are dedicated to say Engineering , Medical alone. IMO Engineering Programs of UET Lahore , Giki and Lums arent that behind Nust in standard but they will score low in this ranking since they specilize in particular domian

 

[Napa]

You do know who makes these opportunities? The Indians themselves

So lack of opportunities mean that Indian unis arent producing enough entrepreneurs or people with good ideas to start great ventures. And as evident by your posts its evident that they churn out dime a dozen, the prototype of 9-5 desk job monkeys.

Even the recent startup culture India has seen is due to Indian expats in the US returning back and using the education and experience they gained in the West

Your tortured reasoning in an attempt to salvage a past post does you little credit. You are essentially saying that things in a country can be judged by everything else in a country. By this fallacious reasoning we can draw other conclusions such as:

1) Indian science and technology must be superior to Japan's because India has been successful in sending an orbiter to Mars whereas Japan has failed.

2) All Indian managers must be superior to English managers because Jaguar-LandRover was failing before the Indians took it over.

Not only fallacious reasoning, but you also throw in wrong facts such as "recent startup culture India has seen is due to Indian expats".

 

[Napa]

I think, the rating system isn't fair to 3rd or 2nd world countries. One of the biggest factor used in such rating is the salary of Grads & the company profile of their job, which gives unfair advantages to western, particularly North American universities...

This really is quite an idiotic ranking from Times. Suppose I had admission to IIT Delhi (ranked in the 401-500 band) in Comp Sci, EE, Mech, or Chem.

1) Would I go to any of the univs ranked in the top ten by Times? Maybe to Harvard, Yale, Princeton and Stanford. Not to any one of the others.

2) Would after graduation I do better? Again, graduates from IIT Delhi are probably in the top 10 or top 20 of all univs around the world. Percentage-wise the number of partners in consulting firms like McKinsey or BGC exceed most other univs.

Times has been incredibly stupid in ranking 5 univs from Hong Kong above IIT Delhi.

 

[Slog]

This really is quite an idiotic ranking from Times. Suppose I had admission to IIT Delhi (ranked in the 401-500 band) in Comp Sci, EE, Mech, or Chem.

1) Would I go to any of the univs ranked in the top ten by Times? Maybe to Harvard, Yale, Princeton and Stanford. Not to any one of the others.

2) Would after graduation I do better? Again, graduates from IIT Delhi are probably in the top 10 or top 20 of all univs around the world. Percentage-wise the number of partners in consulting firms like McKinsey or BGC exceed most other univs.

Times has been incredibly stupid in ranking 5 univs from Hong Kong above IIT Delhi.

This actually is 'fallacious' reasoning and only shows your narrow minded approach. You are only approaching this as an Indian

You wouldnt go to the other top 10 unis (though you should if you get the chance), because as an Indian you are willing to go to IIT Delhi and give the location more weightage.

Any non Indian would go to any of those unis over IIT Delhi every day of the week. Dont use your reasoning for the rest of the world.

One thing is for sure by your posts. IITs clearly live up to the stereotype they have of producing 9-5 desk job monkeys.

And going by the aggressive and frankly frustrated nature of your posts, it seems to have gotten personal for you and you are just left with insults rather than content.

 

[Syed1]

This really is quite an idiotic ranking from Times. Suppose I had admission to IIT Delhi (ranked in the 401-500 band) in Comp Sci, EE, Mech, or Chem.

1) Would I go to any of the univs ranked in the top ten by Times? Maybe to Harvard, Yale, Princeton and Stanford. Not to any one of the others.

2) Would after graduation I do better? Again, graduates from IIT Delhi are probably in the top 10 or top 20 of all univs around the world. Percentage-wise the number of partners in consulting firms like McKinsey or BGC exceed most other univs.

Times has been incredibly stupid in ranking 5 univs from Hong Kong above IIT Delhi.

Yes there are only two companies in the world McKinsey and Boston Consulting Group (it is BCG btw). And any source to back your claim that IIT graduates make up most of the partners in those companies? Last that I checked the campuses of both companies in North America were predominantly frequented by people of non-Indian origin. Perhaps you are suggesting that folks from North America are flying to IIT Delhi to get a higher education?

 

[Syed1]

IIT Delhi is so good, makes sense why India has mastered the art of the jet engine, is making their own fifth gen fighter plane, Indian designed and built automated cars are seen on every street and every new cellphone innovation is coming out of India

 

[MMHS]

This really is quite an idiotic ranking from Times. Suppose I had admission to IIT Delhi (ranked in the 401-500 band) in Comp Sci, EE, Mech, or Chem.

1) Would I go to any of the univs ranked in the top ten by Times? Maybe to Harvard, Yale, Princeton and Stanford. Not to any one of the others.

2) Would after graduation I do better? Again, graduates from IIT Delhi are probably in the top 10 or top 20 of all univs around the world. Percentage-wise the number of partners in consulting firms like McKinsey or BGC exceed most other univs.

Times has been incredibly stupid in ranking 5 univs from Hong Kong above IIT Delhi.

I think, Engineering studies is a bit different from Business Graduation & IT - because it needs lots of infrastructure for an Engineer to succeed.

I can again give 2 classic examples from my family - Uncle & Cousin. One passed electrical engineering from BUET (& he was among top 5 in his 12th grade National Final, ended with 3.98 from BUET in late 1980s) - after that, he joined in Civil Service, Telecommunication board and spent rest of his life working with contractors ... those turnkey devices & analog phones.

Other one, studied A levels in middle east, ended up at Colombia, did PhD in Nano Technology ..... and now working at NASA ...... Even in his late 40s, out of studies for 2 decades, I have seen my uncle solving 2nd order Differential equations for his son at random sitting - his 0.02 CGA loss was for a B+ for a humanitarian paper & rest are A+, some with absolute scores & exam papers re-scrutinized at Cambridge, but his contribution in Engineering career is that, he might retire as Secretary Telecommunication Ministry, or Chairman BTRC ..... didn't even complete his MSc.

On theoretical studies, I can tell that the curriculum at IIT or BUET covers more than most western universities & theoretically top students in South Asia are as knowledgeable as anyone - but most of them ends in Govt. services, which is basically Yak........ Best Civil Engineers in BD, dream about joining Roads & Highways, or Water Development Board ...... and their kids use Apple in their teens, at Govt. contractors' credit

 

[amax]

This really is quite an idiotic ranking from Times. Suppose I had admission to IIT Delhi (ranked in the 401-500 band) in Comp Sci, EE, Mech, or Chem.

1) Would I go to any of the univs ranked in the top ten by Times? Maybe to Harvard, Yale, Princeton and Stanford. Not to any one of the others.

2) Would after graduation I do better? Again, graduates from IIT Delhi are probably in the top 10 or top 20 of all univs around the world. Percentage-wise the number of partners in consulting firms like McKinsey or BGC exceed most other univs.

Times has been incredibly stupid in ranking 5 univs from Hong Kong above IIT Delhi.

IIT are no match to top universities of USA and Europe only universities that could be mentioned in same sentence as them from Asia are Tokyo University and some universities of Japan when it comes to original research, even chinese universities are lagging far behind. E.g Many people know very little about Ecoles of France but they are some of elitest schools when it comes to Engineering and difference is for every one to see where France stands in high tech engineering output and where India stands.

 

[Syed1]

Funny how nobody pointed out that [MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION] shahab is claiming the so-called prowess of IIT-Delhi by how well her graduates do in MANAGEMENT CONSULTING jobs. Shouldn't the primary goal of a tech university be the production of engineers for engineering roles?

 

[Syed1]

Funny you mention McKinsey or BCG, I'd even add Accenture and Delloitte to that list. All of my batch mates who graduated in engineering but never really liked engineering (or weren't that good at it) joined these companies. Meanwhile the more technically inclined secured actual engineering jobs.

 

[sshakir411]

Funny you mention McKinsey or BCG, I'd even add Accenture and Delloitte to that list. All of my batch mates who graduated in engineering but never really liked engineering (or weren't that good at it) joined these companies. Meanwhile the more technically inclined secured actual engineering jobs.

All consultants do is data gathering and research anyways. Yeah working at McKinsey and BCG or Bain is very prestigious but out of all the smart people they hire every year...few stay on with the company after the first 2 years. They re-hire from grad schools and even those people barley build a long-term career with the company...Also the consulting lifestyle is one that will burn you out...Monday to Thursday you travel to the client location. Friday you're in your regional office doing admin work. You mainly work at McKinsey, Bain, or BCG to get a great job elsewhere after a few years.

 

[Napa]

Funny how nobody pointed out that [MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION] shahab is claiming the so-called prowess of IIT-Delhi by how well her graduates do in MANAGEMENT CONSULTING jobs. Shouldn't the primary goal of a tech university be the production of engineers for engineering roles?

Yes, they shouldn't. But this isn't something particular to IITs. It happens in all top universities worldwide. Here's an excerpt from an article about Harvard.

Many of the best students are not going to research cancer, teach and inspire the next generation, or embark on careers in public service. Instead, large numbers are becoming traders, brokers and bankers. At Harvard in 2014, nearly one in five students who took a job went to finance. For economics majors, the number was closer to one in two.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/12/...lings-when-students-take-jobs-in-finance.html

 

[Napa]

IIT are no match to top universities of USA and Europe only universities that could be mentioned in same sentence as them from Asia are Tokyo University and some universities of Japan when it comes to original research, even chinese universities are lagging far behind. E.g Many people know very little about Ecoles of France but they are some of elitest schools when it comes to Engineering and difference is for every one to see where France stands in high tech engineering output and where India stands.

Like I said, based on expected future prospects students would prefer admission to the IITs to most other universities. And their expectations would be justified based on the results that we see in the real world.

 

[Napa]

All consultants do is data gathering and research anyways. Yeah working at McKinsey and BCG or Bain is very prestigious but out of all the smart people they hire every year...few stay on with the company after the first 2 years. They re-hire from grad schools and even those people barley build a long-term career with the company...Also the consulting lifestyle is one that will burn you out...Monday to Thursday you travel to the client location. Friday you're in your regional office doing admin work. You mainly work at McKinsey, Bain, or BCG to get a great job elsewhere after a few years.

The lifestyle gets better as you get more senior. And those who leave in the first couple of years mostly do so because they are asked to leave.

 

[Napa]

Funny you mention McKinsey or BCG, I'd even add Accenture and Deloitte to that list.

There are a couple of orders of magnitude of difference between McKinsey/BCG on one hand and Accenture/Deloitte on the other.

 

[Syed1]

Yes, they shouldn't. But this isn't something particular to IITs. It happens in all top universities worldwide. Here's an excerpt from an article about Harvard.



https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/12/...lings-when-students-take-jobs-in-finance.html

No where in that excerpt it said engineers. Remember Harvard produces all kinds of graduates and not just engineers.

 

[Napa]

I think, Engineering studies is a bit different from Business Graduation & IT - because it needs lots of infrastructure for an Engineer to succeed.

I can again give 2 classic examples from my family - Uncle & Cousin. One passed electrical engineering from BUET (& he was among top 5 in his 12th grade National Final, ended with 3.98 from BUET in late 1980s) - after that, he joined in Civil Service, Telecommunication board and spent rest of his life working with contractors ... those turnkey devices & analog phones.

Other one, studied A levels in middle east, ended up at Colombia, did PhD in Nano Technology ..... and now working at NASA ...... Even in his late 40s, out of studies for 2 decades, I have seen my uncle solving 2nd order Differential equations for his son at random sitting - his 0.02 CGA loss was for a B+ for a humanitarian paper & rest are A+, some with absolute scores & exam papers re-scrutinized at Cambridge, but his contribution in Engineering career is that, he might retire as Secretary Telecommunication Ministry, or Chairman BTRC ..... didn't even complete his MSc.

On theoretical studies, I can tell that the curriculum at IIT or BUET covers more than most western universities & theoretically top students in South Asia are as knowledgeable as anyone - but most of them ends in Govt. services, which is basically Yak........ Best Civil Engineers in BD, dream about joining Roads & Highways, or Water Development Board ...... and their kids use Apple in their teens, at Govt. contractors' credit

It appears that the BUET is rather similar to the IITs, which would especially make sense if the entrance criteria to the BUET was also a competitive exam with advanced (relative to high school) science questions like they are for the IITs.

 

[Napa]

No where in that excerpt it said engineers. Remember Harvard produces all kinds of graduates and not just engineers.

What is the phrase... "same difference"?

The article was about science ("research cancer") and other students. You can find similar articles about MIT and Stanford which will come to the same conclusion for engineering grads. Of course, an even more lucrative path for some of these grads is to join Silicon Valley startups where they write apps for teenagers exchanging pics.

 

[Napa]

Last that I checked the campuses of both companies in North America were predominantly frequented by people of non-Indian origin.

Your anecdotal evidence is misleading. Also, if you actually do not work for one of these firms, you will not be visiting their campuses on a regular basis. My information is based on observations by numerous classmates who work for these firms.

Perhaps you are suggesting that folks from North America are flying to IIT Delhi to get a higher education?

Don't be silly.

 

[JoniInsafian]

What research output or contribution to the world IITs have that they deserve a high ranking??

Yes their grads are good... But the only reason for that is they select the cream of a population of 1 billion people...

If US companies selected the top scorers of IIT admission tests straight out of high school, you would still have the same glorious alumni leading Google and co...


Real great universities are universities like Singapore NTU, EZT Zurich, Karolinska institute Stockholm...

These are universities with small population... Obviously India has more geniuses than Sweden or Singapore... Yet Karolinska has a far greater output than all medical institutions in India combined...
This is the kind of university that makes geniuses out of normal students...

People like [MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION] should learn humility by looking at the mediocre output of all Indian universities compared to west...

 

[JoniInsafian]

If you look at a university like Erasmus Rotterdam... Anyone in the Netherlands with a high school diploma can get in... And yet it has more nobels better research output than elite institutes like IITs... Indians on here should be ashamed of that instead of being proud of their failed elitism where the cream of the cream in a country of a billion people can't beat a university that admits anyone with a high school diploma in a country of 16 millions

 

[JoniInsafian]

This is why India can never reach level of USA... Where everyone thinks they can achieve anything... Instead of worshipping other people for their achievements and their life like Indians... Even if all that comes at the achievement of their own lives... That the small achievements of IITs come from simply vampirizing students from all India...

 

[Napa]

What research output or contribution to the world IITs have that they deserve a high ranking??

Yes their grads are good... But the only reason for that is they select the cream of a population of 1 billion people...

If US companies selected the top scorers of IIT admission tests straight out of high school, you would still have the same glorious alumni leading Google and co...


Real great universities are universities like Singapore NTU, EZT Zurich, Karolinska institute Stockholm...

These are universities with small population... Obviously India has more geniuses than Sweden or Singapore... Yet Karolinska has a far greater output than all medical institutions in India combined...
This is the kind of university that makes geniuses out of normal students...

People like [MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION] should learn humility by looking at the mediocre output of all Indian universities compared to west...

I have already posted my opinion of the relationship between lists and research output.

 

[Napa]

Dont use your reasoning for the rest of the world.

I am actually pretty familiar with the top US universities, with two grad degrees from top 5 US univs. And I can also tell you that the professional careers of my IIT classmates is about the same as my US classmates, which is the reason I said I would not choose most of the other univs over the IITs.