Would New Zealand cricket be justified in ending cricket ties with Pakistan cricket?

[Rana]

Just read the comments on Instagram

Oh boy they are absolutely drilling the black caps! I didn’t know Pakistanis can be even more vengeful than the vele Indians on Twitter and Instagram!

Keep them coming I recon. These arrogant fools need to understand that this cowardly act will not be forgotten until the Pakistanis are recompensed for their loss of money and goodwill.

 

[Savak]

Just read the comments on Instagram

Oh boy they are absolutely drilling the black caps! I didn’t know Pakistanis can be even more vengeful than the vele Indians on Twitter and Instagram!

Good. Need to keep this volume up against the NZCB and the country of NZ

 

[Snatch]

Far, far too many emotional, knee-jerk reactions here. The fascinating part is that most responses still seem to fixate upon cricket when the issue at hand is far more pressing.

At the end of the no sport, musical / theatrical event or gathering of any kind trumps the value of human life. In any corner of the planet, if there is ever a credible threat to human life or safety there is only one course of action that makes sense. And that is to safeguard the human life(s) at all possible costs.

All else can continue later.

Well said.

 

[Rana]

Good. Need to keep this volume up against the NZCB and the country of NZ

Those who were saying Pakistan and their fans are irrelevant (including me to some point), well I can clearly see the backlash of the Pakistan fans has disturbed OP. Also the New Zealand social media pages are indeed on fire right now!

 

[Yk313]

Well said.

Thanks. Was there anything specific in the video clip? I quoted you above but doing so here in case I missed it. At a time like this clarity from any corner is welcome so would be good to know.

 

[kingusama92]

Far, far too many emotional, knee-jerk reactions here. The fascinating part is that most responses still seem to fixate upon cricket when the issue at hand is far more pressing.

At the end of the no sport, musical / theatrical event or gathering of any kind trumps the value of human life. In any corner of the planet, if there is ever a credible threat to human life or safety there is only one course of action that makes sense. And that is to safeguard the human life(s) at all possible costs.

All else can continue later.

No one is questioning that, but why hide the intelligence report?

Only NZ lives matter?

We could have been reading a much different news report if that threat was real and Pakistani cricketers/staff were left unaware because no one told them.

They kept that intelligence report in-house for 36 hours and had Pakistani officials running around asking what happened when they didn't get onto the bus. This is the first time I've seen "brown lives are worth less" in action.

I think Pakistani officials and players are being quite gentle with NZ to be fair. The players are likely taking this quite personal because they were about to be sacrificed by NZ officials.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Far, far too many emotional, knee-jerk reactions here. The fascinating part is that most responses still seem to fixate upon cricket when the issue at hand is far more pressing.

At the end of the no sport, musical / theatrical event or gathering of any kind trumps the value of human life. In any corner of the planet, if there is ever a credible threat to human life or safety there is only one course of action that makes sense. And that is to safeguard the human life(s) at all possible costs.

All else can continue later.

Lol.

Does a unilateral course of action make sense?

Does it make sense to protect only one set of people and to hell with any other potential targets?

Wouldn't it make sense to work together to identify the culprits together?

 

[Technics 1210]

It should be duly noted thus far not a single neutral has posted in this thread. On one side it's Pakistan fans, on the other side it's Pakistan haters.

 

[Titan24]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Many asking this question from Pakistan… My ‘gut feeling’ around all this… There’s bigger political issues at stake??!.. sadly!! ��…people & sport suffering once again!!! <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/sowrong?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#sowrong</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/sadmadworld?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#sadmadworld</a> <a href="https://t.co/5TOeNSQYRh">https://t.co/5TOeNSQYRh</a></p>— Danny Morrison (@SteelyDan66) <a href="https://twitter.com/SteelyDan66/status/1439192130807861250?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 18, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[DeadlyVenom]

The kiwis refused to share info with Pak security....yet still expected Pak security to escort them to the airport.

It's madness how people are trying to rationalise this behaviour.

 

[Yk313]

Too many soft, kiwi like fans on PP


Wait your turn to be soft and sensible. This isn’t the time!

Lol.

Does a unilateral course of action make sense?

Does it make sense to protect only one set of people and to hell with any other potential targets?

Wouldn't it make sense to work together to identify the culprits together?

Hardly. I think PAK are fixating on the wrong issue. The abandonment of a cricket series hardly calls for "dire consequences" or "repercussions".

What I and the rest of us need to ask is why NZ govt. risked the lives of NZCT, PAK security personnel and PAK civilians in what may be a very callous manner. One can only hope that a clearer message comes out to settle the dust on what is increasingly looking like an instance of not valuing two sets of lives equally (not sure how much you have followed the saga but more details are in some of other posts - let me know if you have any questions though).

Cricket can wait. It will be fine.

 

[Snatch]

No one is questioning that, but why hide the intelligence report?

Only NZ lives matter?

We could have been reading a much different news report if that threat was real and Pakistani cricketers/staff were left unaware because no one told them.

They kept that intelligence report in-house for 36 hours and had Pakistani officials running around asking what happened when they didn't get onto the bus. This is the first time I've seen "brown lives are worth less" in action.

I think Pakistani officials and players are being quite gentle with NZ to be fair. The players are likely taking this quite personal because they were about to be sacrificed by NZ officials.

Why do you think alliances like the 5 eyes exist? Some counties trust one another more than others. Get over it, it has much more to do with geo politics than skin color. Stop race baiting, this is not a brown vs white issues.

 

[Buffet]

No one is questioning that, but why hide the intelligence report?

Only NZ lives matter?

We could have been reading a much different news report if that threat was real and Pakistani cricketers/staff were left unaware because no one told them.

They kept that intelligence report in-house for 36 hours and had Pakistani officials running around asking what happened when they didn't get onto the bus. This is the first time I've seen "brown lives are worth less" in action.

I think Pakistani officials and players are being quite gentle with NZ to be fair. The players are likely taking this quite personal because they were about to be sacrificed by NZ officials.

If the conversation about this started 12 hours before cancellation then it does look like the case where Pakistani officials did not know why the NZ team was not on the bus.

---------

According to overseas media, the intelligence came from Five Eyes, an intelligence alliance of New Zealand, Australia, Canada, the United States and United Kingdom. The threat was deemed credible before the match, and led to phone calls between NZC and their counterparts at the Pakistan Cricket Board, and Pakistan and New Zealand Prime Ministers Imran Khan and Jacinda Ardern.

Within 12 hours of those conversations, the tour was cancelled.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/cr...crickets-decision/TSWGBDKU2AHSQPPWDMA3FMVQE4/

 

[Titan24]

Far, far too many emotional, knee-jerk reactions here. The fascinating part is that most responses still seem to fixate upon cricket when the issue at hand is far more pressing.

At the end of the no sport, musical / theatrical event or gathering of any kind trumps the value of human life. In any corner of the planet, if there is ever a credible threat to human life or safety there is only one course of action that makes sense. And that is to safeguard the human life(s) at all possible costs.

All else can continue later.

Dont beat around the bush. Answer OP’s question, is NZ the victim here and they are the ones who are supposed to end the ties based upon hatred on Twitter?

Take a stance as per the thread.

Regarding threat, so any team can leave any tour at any time based upon intel which they are not even willing to share and cause losses of millions? Share a similar incident in any sport on earth where a team leaves based upon some intel which they dont even share. There are numerous examples where team continued their tours in some other countries despite terror attacks happening in those countries at the time of the tour.

Lets talk facts, not theories.

 

[Technics 1210]

No one is questioning that, but why hide the intelligence report?

Only NZ lives matter?

We could have been reading a much different news report if that threat was real and Pakistani cricketers/staff were left unaware because no one told them.

They kept that intelligence report in-house for 36 hours and had Pakistani officials running around asking what happened when they didn't get onto the bus. This is the first time I've seen "brown lives are worth less" in action.

I think Pakistani officials and players are being quite gentle with NZ to be fair. The players are likely taking this quite personal because they were about to be sacrificed by NZ officials.

Spot on. A racist endeavour, given 5-eyes is an alliance between Anglo-Saxon nations! They only share intel among themselves to protect their kind.

 

[Yk313]

No one is questioning that, but why hide the intelligence report?

Only NZ lives matter?

We could have been reading a much different news report if that threat was real and Pakistani cricketers/staff were left unaware because no one told them.

They kept that intelligence report in-house for 36 hours and had Pakistani officials running around asking what happened when they didn't get onto the bus. This is the first time I've seen "brown lives are worth less" in action.

I think Pakistani officials and players are being quite gentle with NZ to be fair. The players are likely taking this quite personal because they were about to be sacrificed by NZ officials.

Dont beat around the bush. Answer OP’s question, is NZ the victim here and they are the ones who are supposed to end the ties based upon hatred on Twitter?

Take a stance as per the thread.

Regarding threat, so any team can leave any tour at any time based upon intel which they are not even willing to share and cause losses of millions? Share a similar incident in any sport on earth where a team leaves based upon some intel which they dont even share. There are numerous examples where team continued their tours in some other countries despite terror attacks happening in those countries at the time of the tour.

Lets talk facts, not theories.

Thanks for the response. Posts #86, #89 and #92 on this thread may help: http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...kistan-Government-before-tour-abandoned/page2

Post #54 here: http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...-or-Pakistan-Government-before-tour-abandoned

And post #622 here: http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...rnment-security-alert&p=11297731#post11297731

I think we are aligned but let me know if there are still any questions. Happy to discuss.

 

[Snatch]

Dont beat around the bush. Answer OP’s question, is NZ the victim here and they are the ones who are supposed to end the ties based upon hatred on Twitter?

Take a stance as per the thread.

Regarding threat, so any team can leave any tour at any time based upon intel which they are not even willing to share and cause losses of millions? Share a similar incident in any sport on earth where a team leaves based upon some intel which they dont even share. There are numerous examples where team continued their tours in some other countries despite terror attacks happening in those countries at the time of the tour.

Lets talk facts, not theories.

Depends on the context, I couldn't imagine NZ woulkd leave Australia or England tours without sharing full intel, but that's different those countries have an alliance and trust one another's governments.

 

[Mp812]

New Zealand is consistently voted amongst 'worlds most livable countries', and 'least corrupt' countries in the world. But wait the rest of the world, Rana from a Pakistan cricket from think's we're boring. That'll change the view of New Zealand world wide. It would be humorous if it wasn't so juvenile.

When NZ opens immigration we all are aware who will apply to get in desperately...

 

[Titan24]

Thanks for the response. Posts #86, #89 and #92 on this thread may help: http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...kistan-Government-before-tour-abandoned/page2

Post #54 here: http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...-or-Pakistan-Government-before-tour-abandoned

And post #622 here: http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...rnment-security-alert&p=11297731#post11297731

I think we are aligned but let me know if there are still any questions. Happy to discuss.

None of your posts have any facts. I have raised few questions, if you are willing answer those. I can write essays on human life but, that would be pointless in the context.

 

[Yk313]

If the conversation about this started 12 hours before cancellation then it does look like the case where Pakistani officials did not know why the NZ team was not on the bus.

---------

According to overseas media, the intelligence came from Five Eyes, an intelligence alliance of New Zealand, Australia, Canada, the United States and United Kingdom. The threat was deemed credible before the match, and led to phone calls between NZC and their counterparts at the Pakistan Cricket Board, and Pakistan and New Zealand Prime Ministers Imran Khan and Jacinda Ardern.

Within 12 hours of those conversations, the tour was cancelled.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/cr...crickets-decision/TSWGBDKU2AHSQPPWDMA3FMVQE4/

Unfortunately this further exacerbates the situation. Not to mention that no inkling of a potential threat was or has been communicated to the security personnel doggedly guarding the entourage (ironic in itself), for a duration that would be considered an eternity as far as such situations are concerned.

 

[Titan24]

Depends on the context, I couldn't imagine NZ woulkd leave Australia or England tours without sharing full intel, but that's different those countries have an alliance and trust one another's governments.

Fair enough but, are you telling me that none of these countries’ sportsmen ever had any sort of safety issue or threat in the 200 or so other countries in the world and thats why the 5 eyes never asked to pull out? If they have ever pulled out like this, based upon intel kindly share the example.

 

[Titan24]

Timely thread by Aman who if I am not wrong was previously advocating for facts to surface and now when NZC has nothing to say lets start blaming the victim. Below is the NZC’s CE’s statement.

Now all the ones that were asking to wait kindly produce some concrete facts out of it and if it’s enough for any team now to pull out of any tour and cause damages?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">New Zealand Cricket chief executive David White has reiterated that specific details of the threat could not and will not be disclosed – privately or publicly. "What I can say is that we were advised this was a specific and credible threat against the team" <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/PakvsNz?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#PakvsNz</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Cricket?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Cricket</a></p>— Saj Sadiq (@SajSadiqCricket) <a href="https://twitter.com/SajSadiqCricket/status/1439351803724943366?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 18, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Yk313]

None of your posts have any facts. I have raised few questions, if you are willing answer those. I can write essays on human life but, that would be pointless in the context.

Thanks but I think I have already answered it in an earlier post on this thread. To summarise no severance of any relations will occur and things will move on.

The posts I linked were meant to address a combination of what you were asking and what the other poster was asking (the worth of the life of a NZ citizen being more than that of their PAK counterpart). Think this element is pretty well covered by the posts I have cited.

Let me know if any other questions.

 

[Titan24]

Thanks but I think I have already answered it in an earlier post on this thread. To summarise no severance of any relations will occur and things will move on.

The posts I linked were meant to address a combination of what you were asking and what the other poster was asking (the worth of the life of a NZ citizen being more than that of their PAK counterpart). Think this element is pretty well covered by the posts I have cited.

Let me know if any other questions.

Did you even read my post before combining it with another which had completely different context? Pardon my comprehension skills but none of your posts have anything related to things which I have asked.

Below is my post again for your reference. Kindly answer the questions and point of view asked

Dont beat around the bush. Answer OP’s question, is NZ the victim here and they are the ones who are supposed to end the ties based upon hatred on Twitter?

Take a stance as per the thread.

Regarding threat, so any team can leave any tour at any time based upon intel which they are not even willing to share and cause losses of millions? Share a similar incident in any sport on earth where a team leaves based upon some intel which they dont even share. There are numerous examples where team continued their tours in some other countries despite terror attacks happening in those countries at the time of the tour.

Lets talk facts, not theories.

 

[Aman]

Timely thread by Aman who if I am not wrong was previously advocating for facts to surface and now when NZC has nothing to say lets start blaming the victim. Below is the NZC’s CE’s statement.

Now all the ones that were asking to wait kindly produce some concrete facts out of it and if it’s enough for any team now to pull out of any tour and cause damages?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">New Zealand Cricket chief executive David White has reiterated that specific details of the threat could not and will not be disclosed – privately or publicly. "What I can say is that we were advised this was a specific and credible threat against the team" <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/PakvsNz?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#PakvsNz</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Cricket?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Cricket</a></p>— Saj Sadiq (@SajSadiqCricket) <a href="https://twitter.com/SajSadiqCricket/status/1439351803724943366?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 18, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

All I know is I trust our government to do what's right for NZ citizens than I do Pakistan and their intelligence.

If the matter is too sensitive to disclose or we're obligated not to reveal it because of 5 eyes restrictions so be it. I'm not going to act like I know more or better than our government,. I trust them to do what's right for the country and citizen's bests interests. They've earnt that trust from Kiwis.

 

[Aman]

Spot on. A racist endeavour, given 5-eyes is an alliance between Anglo-Saxon nations! They only share intel among themselves to protect their kind.

In Saj's tweet, David White iterated the threat was specific to the team.

 

[Buffet]

Unfortunately this further exacerbates the situation. Not to mention that no inkling of a potential threat was or has been communicated to the security personnel doggedly guarding the entourage (ironic in itself), for a duration that would be considered an eternity as far as such situations are concerned.

Officials did not know the details, but they knew that there was a security threat 12 hours in advance. I don't think that official should have been wondering why the NZ team is not on the bus. Maybe ground staff did not know, but top-level officials were aware of this issue going in the background. Otherwise, PCB wouldn't have offered to play on the empty ground.

 

[Yk313]

Did you even read my post before combining it with another which had completely different context? Pardon my comprehension skills but none of your posts have anything related to things which I have asked.

Below is my post again for your reference. Kindly answer the questions and point of view asked

Thanks but to re-iterate I have already responded to the OPs question as you ask me to (I think I even quoted him in the post). Again to summarise, I expect the emotional fallout he is alluding to will blow over, no severing of any relations will take place and the primary thing to deliberate about will be the mortal risk NZ govt’s actions put NZCT, PAK security personnel and PAK civilians in.

I think the last portion of my answer also covers your question partly explicitly and partly implicitly (about abandoning tours etc.). Still, here’s a condensed version: I am all for abandoning tours if a credible threat is perceived but in a manner that does not put the more lives at risk.

 

[Technics 1210]

In Saj's tweet, David White iterated the threat was specific to the team.

David White (how ironic) also stated that the details of the threat will not be disclosed publically, or privately.

Why not share the intel in private with Pakistan ISI atleast? Only Kiwi lives matter?

 

[Technics 1210]

And for those of you who don't know, Pakistan shares intel and info with the 5-eyes on all citizens travelling from Pakistan to any 5-eye destination.

 

[Aman]

David White (how ironic) also stated that the details of the threat will not be disclosed publically, or privately.

Why not share the intel in private with Pakistan ISI atleast? Only Kiwi lives matter?

Intel is from 5 eyes, I doubt the Americans want to share their intel with Pakistani intelligence agencies.

 

[Yk313]

In Saj's tweet, David White iterated the threat was specific to the team.

Thank you. Unfortunately terrorism related attacks are seldom isolated to the intended target. More often than not, in fact almost always, they also yield heavy collateral damage. By not apprising PAK security personnel of the nature (not source) of the security threat, NZ govt. risked the lives of the security personnel guarding the NZCT, any civilians who may have been lining up to enter the ground / been travelling to the ground and also that of the NZCT because if the security personnel whose job is to safeguard the NZCT are caught unawares they are unlikely to be able do so in the most optimal manner.

Loose analogy but terrorism attacks are like cancer. Precaution / early detection (information sharing / intel to neutralise the situation before it escalates) is safer than cure (taking on the terrorists).

 

[Buffet]

David White (how ironic) also stated that the details of the threat will not be disclosed publically, or privately.

Why not share the intel in private with Pakistan ISI atleast? Only Kiwi lives matter?

The person who helped to identify bin Laden was put in jail by Pakistan for 30+ years.So there may be a lack of trust about what will happen if details get shared.

 

[Titan24]

I am all for abandoning tours if a credible threat is perceived but in a manner that does not put the more lives at risk.

Credible threat becomes a really subjective stance when no one is ready to share intel. Quite a few countries have intelligence agencies and upon basis of every intel a I dont think country should be able to pack its bag and pull out without uttering a concrete word.

I have asked a similar example of any sport in any country where a team leaves just based upon intel which they are not even willing to share and without actually happening on the ground. Yet to get an answer. Difficult to imagine that this is the first instance in the history of the world and out of 200 or so countries that a touring team has got serious threats, they dont share a thing and move out. If it is then this means its one hell of an odd instance.

 

[Aman]

The person who helped to identify bin Laden was put in jail by Pakistan for 30+ years.So there may be a lack of trust about what will happen if details get shared.

The relationship between Americans and Pakistan is bad, I can understand the Americans not wanting to disclose information. I don't think either country trusts the other and we all know about you know who hiding in Pakistan for 10 years undetected.

I'm just grateful a potential threat was picked up and no one was hurt.

 

[Technics 1210]

Intel is from 5 eyes, I doubt the Americans want to share their intel with Pakistani intelligence agencies.

You didn't answer the question. Amreekans were sharing intel with Pakistan ISI during the war on terror. What changed? Oh that's right, Amreeka bailed Afghanistan.

 

[Buffet]

You didn't answer the question. Amreekans were sharing intel with Pakistan ISI during the war on terror. What changed?

Sharing was selective from both sides.

 

[Aman]

You didn't answer the question. Amreekans were sharing intel with Pakistan ISI during the war on terror. What changed? Oh that's right, Amreeka bailed Afghanistan.

I don't know the exact reason why, I don't work for American or Pakistani intelligence. I'm purely speculating based on the facts and information we do know and rationalizing each decision logically.

 

[Yk313]

Intel is from 5 eyes, I doubt the Americans want to share their intel with Pakistani intelligence agencies.

Information sharing re. AFG has in a controlled environment has been going since 80s. Both countries’ agencies have open channels of communication and if I am not confusing the month, I think Burns (CIA) met Hamid (ISI) last month.

I doubt the reason for the lack of information being shared is because the US doesn’t share intel with PAK or vice-versa. A better way to phrase it would be that both countries pick and choose what to share and when to share (I have no clue how old you are / what your background is / how well versed you are in the history of the region so here’s a quick summary: PAK and US have played a lot of double-games in AFG and both have a deep seated distrust of each other. Despite this they have worked together and against each other for the good part of 35 years re. AFG. Channels of communication are open. Whether or not this is marked as an opportunity to punish PAK for its antics is a different matter.)

 

[Aman]

Information sharing re. AFG has in a controlled environment has been going since 80s. Both countries’ agencies have open channels of communication and if I am not confusing the month, I think Burns (CIA) met Hamid (ISI) last month.

I doubt the reason for the lack of information being shared is because the US doesn’t share intel with PAK or vice-versa. A better way to phrase it would be that both countries pick and choose what to share and when to share (I have no clue how old you are / what your background is / how well versed you are in the history of the region so here’s a quick summary: PAK and US have played a lot of double-games in AFG and both have a deep seated distrust of each other. Despite this they have worked together and against each other for the good part of 35 years re. AFG. Channels of communication are open. Whether or not this is marked as an opportunity to punish PAK for its antics is a different matter.)

I don't know the politics of it. Purely speculating on the facts I know and rationalizing it logically. Selectively sharing information seems fair, the reason they might not want to disclose this piece of information may be to protect sources.

 

[Savak]

The only right that the NZCB has is to be legally tried for lying, fraud and damages by the PCB and for the govt of NZ to be expelled from Pakistan and for the nation of NZ to be subjected to a complete economic boycott by the country of Pakistan

 

[Yk313]

Credible threat becomes a really subjective stance when no one is ready to share intel. Quite a few countries have intelligence agencies and upon basis of every intel a I dont think country should be able to pack its bag and pull out without uttering a concrete word.

I have asked a similar example of any sport in any country where a team leaves just based upon intel which they are not even willing to share and without actually happening on the ground. Yet to get an answer. Difficult to imagine that this is the first instance in the history of the world and out of 200 or so countries that a touring team has got serious threats, they dont share a thing and move out. If it is then this means its one hell of an odd instance.

I don’t know about literal comprehension skills but inference can certainly be improved (just a joke). Part of the credibility of any threat will become obvious when the nature of the threat is shared to avoid the potential loss of innocent lives (not done in this case).

You won’t be getting any examples from me of tours being abandoned due to undisclosed security threats. I am not concerned about the abandonment of cricket right now. I am only concerned about the disdain with which innocent lives may have been risked here, assuming the threat was substantiated.

 

[Technics 1210]

I don't know the exact reason why, I don't work for American or Pakistani intelligence. I'm purely speculating based on the facts and information we do know and rationalizing each decision logically.

There you go, you said it, purely speculating, but a tweet is enough for you to decide rationally and logically.

Logically if there was a threat then NZ wouldn't have agreed to tour in the first place.

As I said NZSIS are incompetent, couldn't identify a threat and terror attack in Christchurch, but can smell something fishy 1000s of miles away.

 

[Yk313]

I don't know the politics of it. Purely speculating on the facts I know and rationalizing it logically. Selectively sharing information seems fair, the reason they might not want to disclose this piece of information may be to protect sources.

Unfortunately not apprising PAK govt of the nature of the threat (not source) could have led to a catastrophic loss of lives, including Kiwi lives. All of us should be thankful that this did not happen but the disdain with which these lives have been disregarded leaves a lot of questions for Ardern as the harbinger of peace, tolerance and equality.

 

[Titan24]

I'm just grateful a potential threat was picked up and no one was hurt.

If only the 5 eyes intelligence would have been good enough to prevent unfortunate Mosque incident in Christchurch or USA’s agency was responsible enough to not kill innocent civilians in Kabul. These are just couple of examples I can list numerous incidents of lack of intel or completely wrong intel by these intelligence agencies.

So if anyone is questioning the intel no one can blame them when its not even being shared. There occasions when teams dont even leave after blasts in some countries and here a team has left based upon just an intel (There are many issued every day) that is not shared.

I really want to empathetic and understand NZ’s side or the things but, no matter how hard I try its difficult to accept their stance of causing so much damage when there is nothing concrete shared and will not be as well. This opens doors for any team to leave any tour midway based upon any internal intel (Irrespective of how big, small, credible or incredible).

 

[Yk313]

Sharing was selective from both sides.

Sharing is always selective by definition of the job, no? I mean I may be missing something but I am not sure if US would share details of their domestic ongoings at the 5 eyes table, no?

 

[Technics 1210]

10 of the 34 Kiwi members that have landed in Dubai, are staying in Dubai. The reason? The World Cup.

It's take 1 of said players to play in the IPL to falsify this wishy washy security threat excuse.

 

[UsmanhailsAfridi]

[MENTION=132954]Aman[/MENTION]

I always took you to be a level headed poster. But this is ludicrous. You say it’s about cricket, what do you think it is about for us? Duh it’s about cricket and what you guys just pulled off (and I can bet my bottom dollar its politically motivated after the west including NZ got its behind handed in Afghanistan) sets our cricket back at minimum 5 years.

After all our cricket has done for NZ and England, we have been bending over backwards and this is what we get. Your team was in a practice session outdoors 5 hours before this mysterious threat. And then you don’t even consult us? Have some shame and decency. At least make up a better excuse. Reeks of white privilege.

As for “intelligence” lol, yeah it’s the same intelligence that led to 10 civilian afghans being killed 2 weeks ago. Maybe get some better intelligence.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

The person who helped to identify bin Laden was put in jail by Pakistan for 30+ years.So there may be a lack of trust about what will happen if details get shared.

The man running the Taliban, you know the group that the whole world is now against, was in a Pakistani jail for 8 years, and the Americans petitioned for him to be freed.

There are millions of examples of this hypocrisy. The lack of trust goes both ways.

 

[Titan24]

You won’t be getting any examples from me of tours being abandoned due to undisclosed security threats. I am not concerned about the abandonment of cricket right now. I am only concerned about the disdain with which innocent lives may have been risked here, assuming the threat was substantiated.

Lets be honest because, there are none that you know of. This is one of a kind incident in any sport and it’s difficult to accept there was not a single intel in any other place of the world where there was even a bit of threat to the touring athletes or teams of the 5 eyes alliance countries. This just make this whole scenario absurd.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Facts/timeline

1. New Zealand agree to play.
2. Pakistan provides first class security.
3. Players tweet that security is amazing
4. New Zealand recieve a threat.
5 They don't inform those that are giving them security, the type or nature of the threat.
6. Still expect to be escorted to the airport, making Pakistani public/security sitting ducks.
7. Get home safely and still dont disclose the threat allowing alleged perpetrators to potentially put others at harm.

Im sorry, anybody that tries to convince us that the above narrative ( which is indisputably what happened), is remotely acceptable, is trying to pull q fast one.

 

[Yk313]

The man running the Taliban, you know the group that the whole world is now against, was in a Pakistani jail for 8 years, and the Americans petitioned for him to be freed.

There are millions of examples of this hypocrisy. The lack of trust goes both ways.

I think a lot of posters here may have been too young / not born when Reagan facilitated the original “freedom fighters” in the Oval office to know the roots of this thing.

From a cricket tour being abandoned to going down the rabbit hole of AFG. Not promising for the future of this sport regardless of the purview.

 

[Yk313]

Lets be honest because, there are none that you know of. This is one of a kind incident in any sport and it’s difficult to accept there was not a single intel in any other place of the world where there was even a bit of threat to the touring athletes or teams of the 5 eyes alliance countries. This just make this whole scenario absurd.

I have no clue if there are and I am not going to bother to look. Frankly it doesn’t concern me at all. I have tabled my concerns quite clearly: it looks like a lot of innocent lives were risked in this whole fiasco.

 

[Buffet]

Sharing is always selective by definition of the job, no? I mean I may be missing something but I am not sure if US would share details of their domestic ongoings at the 5 eyes table, no?

Both countries did not share everything related to security even if sharing would have saved a life in the past. The situation could be the same here as well.

I just emphasized the 'selective part'.

Having said that, as a cricket fan, I would like to know what was the threat because it came out of nowhere and security provided by Pakistan seemed tight to me. I am just going by details provided by fellow poster here.

 

[sweep_shot]

Facts/timeline

1. New Zealand agree to play.
2. Pakistan provides first class security.
3. Players tweet that security is amazing
4. New Zealand recieve a threat.
5 They don't inform those that are giving them security, the type or nature of the threat.
6. Still expect to be escorted to the airport, making Pakistani public/security sitting ducks.
7. Get home safely and still dont disclose the threat allowing alleged perpetrators to potentially put others at harm.

Im sorry, anybody that tries to convince us that the above narrative ( which is indisputably what happened), is remotely acceptable, is trying to pull q fast one.

Really unprofessional from Kiwis. I agree.

 

[Buffet]

The man running the Taliban, you know the group that the whole world is now against, was in a Pakistani jail for 8 years, and the Americans petitioned for him to be freed.

There are millions of examples of this hypocrisy. The lack of trust goes both ways.

The bold part is key and it may answer why some information is not getting shared.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

The bold part is key and it should end all questions about why some information is not getting shared.

Information that puts others at risk must always be shared.

Would you be happy if China knew about an imminent attack in India/America, tipped off their countrymen but let the others take the flack.

There is no way to rationalise this approach. New Zealand have acted cruelly and callousley...and still continue to do so.

Especially when they are being threatened yet still need escorted away from that threat by Pakistani troops.

 

[Technics 1210]

I have no clue if there are and I am not going to bother to look. Frankly it doesn’t concern me at all. I have tabled my concerns quite clearly: it looks like a lot of innocent lives were risked in this whole fiasco.

Correction, only Kiwi lives were at risk if the threat is to believed. If other lives were at risk (Pakistanis) then the intel would've been shared at least with Pakistan ISI for the sake of saving lives, regardless of race, colour, or creed. Welcome to the Anglo-Saxon 5-eyes.

 

[Yk313]

Correction, only Kiwi lives were at risk if the threat is to believed. If other lives were at risk (Pakistanis) then the intel would've been shared at least with Pakistan ISI for the sake of saving lives, regardless of race, colour, or creed. Welcome to the Anglo-Saxon 5-eyes.

Terrorism threats do not work like that. Collateral damage is almost always on thr cards. By not sharing thr information with security personnel, NZCT’s own security may have been compromised not to mention the risk to lives of security personnel and PAK civilians.

 

[Titan24]

it looks like a lot of innocent lives were risked in this whole fiasco.

Yeah well “looks like” “probably” “internal intel” are not enough to justify causing losses and damages to your host nation, whichever way one looks at it. Host nation deserves more concrete facts then this and even now they are not sharing anything. No way in the world this whole handling and stance can be justified.

 

[Buffet]

Information that puts others at risk must always be shared.

+1 Agree with this.

I was just explaining why something would have happened. I am not rationalizing it. I am a cricket fan and come to PP to interact with fellow cricket fans. I would personally want to know what exactly happened, but I am sure that I won't know too many details. Hopefully, we know a bit more.

 

[Technics 1210]

Terrorism threats do not work like that. Collateral damage is almost always on thr cards. By not sharing thr information with security personnel, NZCT’s own security may have been compromised not to mention the risk to lives of security personnel and PAK civilians.

Only proving the point the 5-eyes care about their own, and to hell with collateral damage.

 

[Aman]

Wow!!! That really changes things!!!

New Zealand recieved a bomb threat to the hotel.....so decided to not leave it ?!?!

Yes guys thats the correct course of action when receiving a threat. Stay in the place thats threatened for even longer, infact refuse to leave it, don't tell anyone that its at risk of being bombed, and put more lives at risk.

Truly sickening.

Credible and serious enough for independent agencies in Pakistan to tell them to not continue.

 

[Bilal Ahmad15]

Boring country

Boring people


Boring overseas diaspora

Just merge with Australia and become an extra state! Deep down they are equally as racist from within

Why are you criticising New Zealand Citizens and New Zealand as a country? New Zealand Citizens had nothing to do with this, and Blackcaps pulling out from this tour doesn't all of a sudden make all New Zeland Citizens rasict. Jacinda made the decision for the NZ players to leave Pakistan as she cares more about the lives of the New Zealand players over the cricket series, as much as this frustrates Pakistan Cricket Players, fans etc. and NZC and Blackcaps players cant go against their own Prime Minister...

It's this New Zealand Security 'Intelligence' that is to be blamed and questioned, as they still haven't mentioned what the threat is and they didn't even mention it to PCB and have damaged Pakistan cricket.

 

[offstump]

Guys, who cares about NZ and NZC? They aren’t our allies, not in cricketing terms and definitely not politically. They’re entirely reliant on the intelligence of others so no surprise they went running for the hills when they received this intel. If this was always the case, i.e. they would abandon the tour if an intelligence tip was received, then they should never have toured in the first place. If you can’t trust your hosts then don’t come period. If someone says well how can they trust Pakistan after 2003 or 2009, then again don’t tour at all. If you have an issue with Pakistani cricketers tweeting out then ignore them, but I can guarantee that you we would have self hating posters (we all know who) saying how spineless the PCB and our cricketers are if they remained silent. Pakistan needs to go on the full offensive and not get pushed around any longer. Laughable attitude from the kiwis considering Muslims were slaughtered under their noses, the Bangladesh team barely escaped with their lives and our own cricketers were treated like garbage when we last toured. I wish we got up and left during that tour.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Credible and serious enough for independent agencies in Pakistan to tell them to not continue.

Is the correct course of action to refuse to leave a building that you believe is at risk of being bombed?

That's a strategy i would expect from someone working at 5 Guys, not 5 eyes.

 

[Technics 1210]

You heard it here folks - 5 eyes refuse to share intel with other security services, but will share intel with a publication, called Stuff.

You couldn't make this up.

 

[Yk313]

Yeah well “looks like” “probably” “internal intel” are not enough to justify causing losses and damages to your host nation, whichever way one looks at it. Host nation deserves more concrete facts then this and even now they are not sharing anything. No way in the world this whole handling and stance can be justified.

Will be my last post on this particular exchange bhai / baita (sorry not sure how old you are). I would say relax, take a deep breath - life goes on. In a few years hopefully this saga will be a constructive reminder in security, diplomacy and event management going forward. Not to mention if this can spur PAK into action and get PAK to monetise its large fan base to become the host of the second largest league then why not but all of that is quite far distant now.

On topic: I am not concerned about “deserves” in the sense of owing a favour. The host nation *needed* the facts in order to get its own house in order, protect its citizens as well as the lives of the visitors.

 

[Buffet]

This is one article which we dont know how credible. NZC CE has said they are not making it public and here its coming in publication? and PCB and interior ministry has said multiple times they havent been provided any information. Not sure if the general info means they just provided info that there is a threat.

Yeah, we may know more in the coming days.

I would assume the NZ team would have provided info at least about hotels under threat because they were completely dependent on security provided by Pakistan. It would have been foolish to not share that much.

 

[Titan24]

Just read the article. Like always some posters are jumping to conclusions before even reading it correctly. Highlighted the important parts. This bomb threat was weeks ago and was declared a hoax by NZ own security personnel.

Stuff understands the New Zealand cricket team had received a bomb threat to their hotel and flights. However, New Zealand Cricket Chief executive David White said on Sunday afternoon that he had not “heard that information’’.

Asked by Stuff if threats had been made to Black Caps players before the team left for Pakistan, White said: "A few weeks ago there was some email threats that went to some players that we forwarded to our security provider, which I'm informed is not unsual but they were proved to be hoax and not credible

 

[Yk313]

So NZC did not leave them in the lurch, they informed PCB immediately about the threats. Once it was determined there was no chance of the series continuing the team left.

Where is the backstabbing in this? PCB and the government were aware of the situation. They have no leg to stand on here.

I said NZC backstabbed? What does that even mean by the way? How does one not abandon a tour when such a credible threat or actual event transpires (I would have vociferously advocated for the same had the situation been reverse i.e. PAK in NZD)?

My only concern is that not sharing the nature of the threat risked many lives which could have been lost had the threat materialised, including those of NZCT.

 

[Aman]

Just read the article. Like always some posters are jumping to conclusions before even reading it correctly. Highlighted the important parts. This bomb threat was weeks ago and was declared a hoax by NZ own security personnel.

Stuff understands the New Zealand cricket team had received a bomb threat to their hotel and flights. However, New Zealand Cricket Chief executive David White said on Sunday afternoon that he had not “heard that information’’.

Asked by Stuff if threats had been made to Black Caps players before the team left for Pakistan, White said: "A few weeks ago there was some email threats that went to some players that we forwarded to our security provider, which I'm informed is not unsual but they were proved to be hoax and not credible

Ok, my bad. Retract that lol. I was in a hurry and just skimmed through while in the middle of something. Get pulled up by the headline.

 

[ahsan17]

Read the next paragraph of the article. It says NZ has not heard of this threat to the hotel.

 

[Snatch]

The only right that the NZCB has is to be legally tried for lying, fraud and damages by the PCB and for the govt of NZ to be expelled from Pakistan and for the nation of NZ to be subjected to a complete economic boycott by the country of Pakistan

Not if it's privileged 5 eyes alliance intel. Which legal court are you referring to exactly who would prosecute NZ if they couldn't share anymore of the intel if it would breach their obligations under the alliance? Laughable suggestion.

You're not talking rationally.

 

[Aman]

It's a bit confusing at the moment with PCB authorities and minister reporting that they never got told the threat by NZ but Stuff news reports about the bomb threat and claims NZC security immediately told PCB about the bomb threat

Nah, forget it. Apparently the bomb headline was bogus. Stuff NZ lol

My bad for not reading it, but I was in the middle of something and just wanted to get what I thought was breaking news out quickly and told others to post it because I was unable to.

Stuff understands the New Zealand cricket team had received a bomb threat to their hotel and flights after the decision had been made to abort the tour. However, New Zealand Cricket Chief executive David White said on Sunday afternoon that he had not “heard that information’’.

 

[UsmanhailsAfridi]

I truly hope Pakistan does become safe and the top teams return to playing cricket there.

As is teams targeted by these groups should not be rolling the dice by sending their teams over otherwise if something does happen Pakistan will not see these teams back in their lifetimes and innocent lives will have been lost for the sake of a sport.

I can assure your team will go no where if the same happened in India, heck your guys will stick around thru a covid outbreak. This is a new trend in cricket, make up nonsense and pack your bags to runaway

 

[Titan24]

Guys atleast read before forming non factual opinions.

“While the general tenor of the threat was immediately shared with the PCB, White reiterated that specific details could not, and will not, be disclosed – privately or publicly.

General tenor is “we have got threats” as they didn’t go into specifics

 

[Titan24]

Ok, my bad. Retract that lol. I was in a hurry and just skimmed through while in the middle of something. Get pulled up by the headline.

No problem.

 

[wajid]

Intel is from 5 eyes, I doubt the Americans want to share their intel with Pakistani intelligence agencies.

That’s a joke considering intelligence sharing is the cornerstone of Pak-US relationship. Were all those Intelligence and DOS officials lying in all seminar talks they have been giving non-stop post US exit? They seem to be under the illusion that there are robust mechanisms in place for intelligence sharing between ISI and US agencies.

 

[Yk313]

I can assure your team will go no where if the same happened in India, heck your guys will stick around thru a covid outbreak. This is a new trend in cricket, make up nonsense and pack your bags to runaway

I don’t think so. I think each of SENA countries will likely leave at the first sign of credible threat or actual event transpiring in PAK/IND/BAN/SRL/WIN.

I would say that all teams should actually do so instead of taking any half-baked precautions. Goes without saying that endangering further lives is not part of the remit and should be iterated on all available fora.