Younis Khan vs Virat Kohli in Tests

[VForVendetta]

Shewag was a brutal terrifying opener without question.

Having a closer look at his averages in SENA makes me question his position as a true goat opener. He is a great opener but I am not sure I can say he is definitely right at the very top.

He was always poor vs swing. He has a good average in Australia, however, his exploits in England, south africa and new Zealand have been rather subpar.

Who are goat test openers according to you? Let's hear it. Then we can dissect Sehwag's not so impressive outings in sena & compare his records with the ones you deem as better than him.

 

[VForVendetta]

@Farabi

I didn’t say Pakistan will never produce a better batsman than Kohli. The chances are slim because Pakistan’s batting culture and legacy are a bit of a joke, but you never know what happens in the future.

You can’t say that about any team. Who knows. Maybe in 2050, the greatest Asian batsman of all time is a Bangladeshi.

Then people will living in the past will say that batting in 2023 was much harder because of XYZ reasons.

Jokes apart, as of 2023, Kohli is clear of all Pakistani batsmen. Past and present.

Other than Kohli & Sachin is there any other Indian batsman you deem better than every Pakistani batsmen in the history? I am of course referring to both format experts. So let's keep Gavaskar, Dhoni, Laxman, Yuvraj etc out of this discussion.

 

[kron]

Who are goat test openers according to you? Let's hear it. Then we can dissect Sehwag's not so impressive outings in sena & compare his records with the ones you deem as better than him.

For Me it would be Alistair cook, sunil gavaskar, greenridge and Hayden. Then Shewag will be just below. You could argue that Hayden and Shewag were around the same level. Both had flaws vs the moving ball.


Ofocurse you can go further back and say Hobbs etc too but they played in a completely different era which can't be compared with the modern one.

These guys dint ha e as many holes as shewag did vs swing.

 

[Mamoon]

I don't mind the logic being applied to bowlers but it is more easy to apply it to batsmen.

However again the thing is, someone like Joel garner did rely on constantly bowling that bouncer to get wickets something he wouldn't be able to do today.

Just like wasim akram kept relying on reverse swing over and over at the back end of the innings, something that would be less lethal today.

Reason I believe wasim akram or Glenn mcgrath are still better is because just watching them bowl, wasim has swung the new ball in a way that's yet to be replicated by others, Kohli who struggles with that outswing a bit early on and rohit who struggles with that inswing would be playing a 100x more lethal version against wasim.

As for Glenn mcgrath his line and length is unmatched, but these 2 and other bowlers of the old era would still have their wicket counts dramatically reduced if they were bowling today then they were in the previous era.

One thing people don’t realize is that bowlers of the past got away with a lot in terms of tampering with the ball.

Shaheen, Naseem, Rauf etc. will wreak havoc with the types of balls Imran, Wasim and Waqar bowled with to batting lineups that ended with the number 6 batsman because the bowlers were all complete mugs with the bat and few teams had keepers who could be classified as batsmen.

Every era comes with different challenges. There is no such as thing as easier or harder, these are blanket statements that can be easily negated with a bit of critical thinking.

It’s just like people making convenient statements like Test cricket is harder than T20 cricket.

If that was true, every good Test cricketer would have found T20s easy, but you can ask Pujara, Azhar Ali, Cook, Younis etc. how easy T20s are and similarly, the reverse applies too.

You can ask Pollard and Russell how difficult Test cricket can be.

Your era doesn’t determine whether you are better or worse than someone. That is a very ignorant thing to say. What matters are your individual skills.

Cricket fans and sports fans in general live too much in the past and the more time passes, the more your legend grows because the stories and memories get exaggerated with the passage of time.

People talk too much about how the quality of cricket in 70s and 80s was better than today but you watch footage of that era and there is nothing special about that period that you won’t find today.

The game has evolved a lot and also improved in so many aspects. Sure, certain skills were lost but there are plenty of other skills that were gained too. It is the natural evolution of sport.

Great players are great players. It doesn’t matter if they are playing in 1973 or 2023 or 2053.

If only there can be a simulation where you could pit teams from today with teams from the past. So many myths will be destroyed.

For example, Clive’s West Indies, widely regarded as the GOAT Test team, would 100% get rinsed by Kohli’s India in India.

Similarly, there is no doubt that team would absolutely pummel so many teams of today especially at home (if not all).

McGrath would be almost impossible to dominate in any era because his line and length were impeccable and such line and length will always trouble batsmen.

 

[Mamoon]

Other than Kohli & Sachin is there any other Indian batsman you deem better than every Pakistani batsmen in the history? I am of course referring to both format experts. So let's keep Gavaskar, Dhoni, Laxman, Yuvraj etc out of this discussion.

Across formats? No.

Individual formats? Plenty especially in Limited Overs.

 

[mominsaigol]

One thing people don’t realize is that bowlers of the past got away with a lot in terms of tampering with the ball.

Shaheen, Naseem, Rauf etc. will wreak havoc with the types of balls Imran, Wasim and Waqar bowled with to batting lineups that ended with the number 6 batsman because the bowlers were all complete mugs with the bat and few teams had keepers who could be classified as batsmen.

Every era comes with different challenges. There is no such as thing as easier or harder, these are blanket statements that can be easily negated with a bit of critical thinking.

It’s just like people making convenient statements like Test cricket is harder than T20 cricket.

If that was true, every good Test cricketer would have found T20s easy, but you can ask Pujara, Azhar Ali, Cook, Younis etc. how easy T20s are and similarly, the reverse applies too.

You can ask Pollard and Russell how difficult Test cricket can be.

Your era doesn’t determine whether you are better or worse than someone. That is a very ignorant thing to say. What matters are your individual skills.

Cricket fans and sports fans in general live too much in the past and the more time passes, the more your legend grows because the stories and memories get exaggerated with the passage of time.

People talk too much about how the quality of cricket in 70s and 80s was better than today but you watch footage of that era and there is nothing special about that period that you won’t find today.

The game has evolved a lot and also improved in so many aspects. Sure, certain skills were lost but there are plenty of other skills that were gained too. It is the natural evolution of sport.

Great players are great players. It doesn’t matter if they are playing in 1973 or 2023 or 2053.

If only there can be a simulation where you could pit teams from today with teams from the past. So many myths will be destroyed.

For example, Clive’s West Indies, widely regarded as the GOAT Test team, would 100% get rinsed by Kohli’s India in India.

Similarly, there is no doubt that team would absolutely pummel so many teams of today especially at home (if not all).

McGrath would be almost impossible to dominate in any era because his line and length were impeccable and such line and length will always trouble batsmen.

I mean to be completly fair I wasn't born in the 1990's, so I don't exactly have experience of the old era, only the current era.

So for that reason I'll concede this argument, because you clearly know better in this aspect.

But awesome that you acknowledged mcgrath .

 

[VForVendetta]

For Me it would be Alistair cook, sunil gavaskar, greenridge and Hayden. Then Shewag will be just below. You could argue that Hayden and Shewag were around the same level. Both had flaws vs the moving ball.


Ofocurse you can go further back and say Hobbs etc too but they played in a completely different era which can't be compared with the modern one.

These guys dint ha e as many holes as shewag did vs swing.

I actually won't go further to Hobbs era simply because that was vastly different period.That was the amateur era. Any greatness before 60's we need to take with a pinch of salt.
Let's talk about the men you picked. Obviously Gavaskar is objectively the goat opener in test history. No one with a sane mind can dispute that. But what about his partner in an all time xi?
Greenidge was a force of nature, an absolute destructive run machine. But he was extremely poor in Aus despite having a reputation of a great player of fast bowling. His records in Pak are abysmal to put it lightly. He was objectively poor against the two best attacks of his era.
Cook has played some clutch knocks over the years & was the main architect behind their historical series triumphs in Aus & Ind.However that doesn't justify his mediocre outings in Nz & SA, two places he should have been able to perform, considering the similarities with his home conditions. After that 10/11 ashes he was extremely poor in next couple of Aus tours. His record also got an overall boost from some minnow bashing against Sri,BD & WI. Overall he was just not consistent enough. Never could sustain his supremacy after that superb India tour in 12/13. Was allowed to play a lot more matches than he actually deserved simply because Root was a fan & ECB couldn't find a decent replacement.
Hayden is actually one other guy who I consider goat other than Sehwag. But the problem is the accusations that you have against Sehwag also work against Hayden. He too struggled in SA,Eng & Nz. To his credit he was outstanding in Ind. His conversion rate was also better than Sehwag. But Sehwag's strike rate is truly astonishing & puts him ahead of anybody else. He possessed a strike rate that a lot of odi batsmen struggled to possess at that era. I Mean Imam has identical odi strike rate for gods sake!
I actually don't mind putting Hayden ahead of Sehwag. But rest of them I strongly disagree & I have pointed out the reasons for that.

 

[Mamoon]

I mean to be completly fair I wasn't born in the 1990's, so I don't exactly have experience of the old era, only the current era.

So for that reason I'll concede this argument, because you clearly know better in this aspect.

But awesome that you acknowledged mcgrath .

There is nothing to concede. It is a discussion forum, not a war. People have different views and we should all be capable of listening to each other and expressing our views.

Some discussions get dragged because everyone wants to prove others wrong and want the last word.

As far as McGrath is concerned, you have to be a total fool to not acknowledge him. He was probably the closest thing to a perfect seamer. His impeccable, almost flawless record in all formats and all conditions prove it.

 

[VForVendetta]

Across formats? No.

Individual formats? Plenty especially in Limited Overs.

So if I ask you to make a top 10 compiled odi list of Indo-Pak players what would that list look like? How many Pak batsmen will you put there or will you even put one? Let's look at that list if you would be kind enough.

 

[kron]

I actually won't go further to Hobbs era simply because that was vastly different period.That was the amateur era. Any greatness before 60's we need to take with a pinch of salt.
Let's talk about the men you picked. Obviously Gavaskar is objectively the goat opener in test history. No one with a sane mind can dispute that. But what about his partner in an all time xi?
Greenidge was a force of nature, an absolute destructive run machine. But he was extremely poor in Aus despite having a reputation of a great player of fast bowling. His records in Pak are abysmal to put it lightly. He was objectively poor against the two best attacks of his era.
Cook has played some clutch knocks over the years & was the main architect behind their historical series triumphs in Aus & Ind.However that doesn't justify his mediocre outings in Nz & SA, two places he should have been able to perform, considering the similarities with his home conditions. After that 10/11 ashes he was extremely poor in next couple of Aus tours. His record also got an overall boost from some minnow bashing against Sri,BD & WI. Overall he was just not consistent enough. Never could sustain his supremacy after that superb India tour in 12/13. Was allowed to play a lot more matches than he actually deserved simply because Root was a fan & ECB couldn't find a decent replacement.
Hayden is actually one other guy who I consider goat other than Sehwag. But the problem is the accusations that you have against Sehwag also work against Hayden. He too struggled in SA,Eng & Nz. To his credit he was outstanding in Ind. His conversion rate was also better than Sehwag. But Sehwag's strike rate is truly astonishing & puts him ahead of anybody else. He possessed a strike rate that a lot of odi batsmen struggled to possess at that era. I Mean Imam has identical odi strike rate for gods sake!
I actually don't mind putting Hayden ahead of Sehwag. But rest of them I strongly disagree & I have pointed out the reasons for that.

Honestly you could make a case for each one. I am not going to argue over arbitrary rankings. I did forget to mention Graeme Smith. Personally I feel he was above shewag too. I would put the 4 to 5 players above shewag but that's a personal preference. I feel shewag's issues vs swing was more pronounced in comparison with the flaws of the other openers mentioned above in specific conditions.

Each to their own though. All truly great players but I don't feel shewag is number 1. Top 5/6 for me in all time rankings.

 

[sweep_shot]

Younis wins this one.

Kohli is more like an ODI ATG.

 

[mominsaigol]

There is nothing to concede. It is a discussion forum, not a war. People have different views and we should all be capable of listening to each other and expressing our views.

Some discussions get dragged because everyone wants to prove others wrong and want the last word.

As far as McGrath is concerned, you have to be a total fool to not acknowledge him. He was probably the closest thing to a perfect seamer. His impeccable, almost flawless record in all formats and all conditions prove it.

By concede I mean, I agree to your viewpoint, its the way I talk XD. Not that I treated this as war XD. But yh Glenn mcgrath is a Chad.

 

[VForVendetta]

Honestly you could make a case for each one. I am not going to argue over arbitrary rankings. I did forget to mention Graeme Smith. Personally I feel he was above shewag too. I would put the 4 to 5 players above shewag but that's a personal preference. I feel shewag's issues vs swing was more pronounced in comparison with the flaws of the other openers mentioned above in specific conditions.

Each to their own though. All truly great players but I don't feel shewag is number 1. Top 5/6 for me in all time rankings.

Yes Smith was terrific too & you must have noticed I mentioned him in one of my earlier posts. The thing with Sehwag is he was an absolute master of destruction. In my lifetime I have never seen another batsman to destroy legendary bowlers after bowlers with such ease, with the exception of KP. It's easy to term him home track bully or flat track bully but to conveniently forget that no one in the history bullied quality attacks quite like him. If it was so easy then his teammates would have also done it, players from other countries would have also done it. He pretty much ended Saqlain & treated Murali & Warne with utter contempt. It's due to him mainly a guy like Shoaib had little to no impact in those two home series of 04 & 06. No matter how hard I try his impact was just too much in asia to ignore. He was poor in sena, but at the same time purely judging on statistics one can claim him as the greatest batsmen ever in asian conditions.

 

[kron]

Yes Smith was terrific too & you must have noticed I mentioned him in one of my earlier posts. The thing with Sehwag is he was an absolute master of destruction. In my lifetime I have never seen another batsman to destroy legendary bowlers after bowlers with such ease, with the exception of KP. It's easy to term him home track bully or flat track bully but to conveniently forget that no one in the history bullied quality attacks quite like him. If it was so easy then his teammates would have also done it, players from other countries would have also done it. He pretty much ended Saqlain & treated Murali & Warne with utter contempt. It's due to him mainly a guy like Shoaib had little to no impact in those two home series of 04 & 06. No matter how hard I try his impact was just too much in asia to ignore. He was poor in sena, but at the same time purely judging on statistics one can claim him as the greatest batsmen ever in asian conditions.

He was good in Australia to be fair. Very good. Just not in SEN. Oh easily.

In Asia no contest. Most destructive batsman I have ever seen. Those test matches where he scored a triple 100 against us scarred me for a lifetime.

In Asia surely he is number 1 without doubt. Cook was great vs spin and did help them beat India in 2012 albeit a weakened Indian side that was over the hill.

 

[Mamoon]

So if I ask you to make a top 10 compiled odi list of Indo-Pak players what would that list look like? How many Pak batsmen will you put there or will you even put one? Let's look at that list if you would be kind enough.

I will only rank the players I saw live.

Best ODI batsmen (in order) from Pakistan/India:

1. Kohli
2. Tendulkar
3. Rohit
4. Dhoni
5. Inzamam
6. Babar
7. Yuvraj
8. Ganguly
9. Saeed Anwar
10. Dhawan

Honorable mentions: Yousuf, Sehwag, Gambhir, Raina

 

[Saanji]

I will only rank the players I saw live.

Best ODI batsmen (in order) from Pakistan/India:

1. Kohli
2. Tendulkar
3. Rohit
4. Dhoni
5. Inzamam
6. Babar
7. Yuvraj
8. Ganguly
9. Saeed Anwar
10. Dhawan

Honorable mentions: Yousuf, Sehwag, Gambhir, Raina

Anwar below ganguly?

 

[Mamoon]

Anwar below ganguly?

Yes. Anwar made merry against an average Indian attack and was terrible against Australia, South Africa, New Zealand.

Really good in World Cups though but so was Ganguly.

I don’t think Anwar would have been as good against the 90’s Pakistan attack as Ganguly was.

Anwar gets overhyped as an ODI opener because of the iconic 194 and also because ODIs peaked in the 90’s and he flogged the living daylights out of India.

Anwar’s best format was Test cricket and he scored everywhere but unfortunately didn’t play enough Tests for multitude of reasons.

 

[VForVendetta]

I will only rank the players I saw live.

Best ODI batsmen (in order) from Pakistan/India:

1. Kohli
2. Tendulkar
3. Rohit
4. Dhoni
5. Inzamam
6. Babar
7. Yuvraj
8. Ganguly
9. Saeed Anwar
10. Dhawan

Honorable mentions: Yousuf, Sehwag, Gambhir, Raina

So you weren't old enough to watch Azhar & Malik live? I am not saying these two were goat level but always thought if they had their heads in right places instead of getting involved in all sorts of ugly slugfests maybe they would have become greater legends. Definitely had the talent & ability, played some outrageous knocks over the years, both of them. Don't get the recognition they deserve due to other controversies.
Regarding your list I mostly agree, just not the order. I would keep Yuvraj far ahead due to his breathtaking ability of winning & turning matches. IMO he is the greatest loi match winner from Asia so far. Just unlucky to get struck with cancer at the wrong time. Otherwise the guy certainly was a surefire member of 10k club.

 

[Mamoon]

So you weren't old enough to watch Azhar & Malik live? I am not saying these two were goat level but always thought if they had their heads in right places instead of getting involved in all sorts of ugly slugfests maybe they would have become greater legends. Definitely had the talent & ability, played some outrageous knocks over the years, both of them. Don't get the recognition they deserve due to other controversies.
Regarding your list I mostly agree, just not the order. I would keep Yuvraj far ahead due to his breathtaking ability of winning & turning matches. IMO he is the greatest loi match winner from Asia so far. Just unlucky to get struck with cancer at the wrong time. Otherwise the guy certainly was a surefire member of 10k club.

I started watching around 97-98, which was well past Azhar and Malik’s peak.

I would also add Dravid to the honorable mentions list. I knew i was missing someone and it was him.

He was an excellent number 3 between 1998 and 2005, I have seen people (who obviously didn’t watch him) compare his ODI performances to Younis and Misbah which is total nonsense.

He was no Kohli or Ponting at 3 but a highly accomplished ODI batsman in his own right.

 

[VForVendetta]

Yes. Anwar made merry against an average Indian attack and was terrible against Australia, South Africa, New Zealand.

Really good in World Cups though but so was Ganguly.

I don’t think Anwar would have been as good against the 90’s Pakistan attack as Ganguly was.

Anwar gets overhyped as an ODI opener because of the iconic 194 and also because ODIs peaked in the 90’s and he flogged the living daylights out of India.

Anwar’s best format was Test cricket and he scored everywhere but unfortunately didn’t play enough Tests for multitude of reasons.

He wasn't terrible against Newzealand though, far from it, he had four hundreds against them including two icc knocks. Now if you meant in Nz then true, but in other venues he was very successful.
Also this idea that he made a career out of bullying Indian trundlers is a bit of myth & at the best half truth. He was far more brutal against Sri, seven hundreds against them! That 194 definitely enhanced his legacy but funny thing is that was his first hundred against Ind, a lot of people probably don't remember that.

 

[Rana]

“Only Babar and Rizwan will get into all other sides”

Based on what?

 

[shamaan]

England is not the only country outside of Asia. There are others too...

Kohli averages 43 in Tests outside Asia.

Younis averages 42 in Tests outside Asia.

Kohli also has twice the number of centuries as YK outside Asia

And if we remove Zimbabwe for obvious reasons (Kohli never got to play Zim in Tests), Younis' average falls to 39...

43 vs 39 that too with the conditions being much more bowling friendly in SENA in the last 7-8 years (backed up by stats). How is this even a comparison at this point?


Kudos to Younis for padding his stats on the dead tracks of Pakistan and UAE which helped him end up with a 50+ average (commendable feat by the way) , but no-one with a sane unbiased mind would say YK is a better Test batter than Kohli. And if they do, it's just as absurd as saying Imam Ul Haq is a better ODI opener than Mathew Hayden and Adam Gilchrist...

Thier are others to such as New Zealand...

 

[Mamoon]

He wasn't terrible against Newzealand though, far from it, he had four hundreds against them including two icc knocks. Now if you meant in Nz then true, but in other venues he was very successful.
Also this idea that he made a career out of bullying Indian trundlers is a bit of myth & at the best half truth. He was far more brutal against Sri, seven hundreds against them! That 194 definitely enhanced his legacy but funny thing is that was his first hundred against Ind, a lot of people probably don't remember that.

With Anwar it was more of a case of attitude than ability.

At times he was too casual in his approach. He would frequently walk across his stumps and get his leg stump knocked off and would frequently nick one to the slip cordon.

Australia and South Africa had terrific pace attacks in his time and in those Australian and South African conditions he couldn’t dig in. Same goes for New Zealand conditions.

He was quite similar to Mark Waugh - exceptionally elegant and talented but almost equally frustrating with their casual and careless dismissals.

I don’t think Anwar would have been able to handle Wasim, Waqar and Shoaib the way Ganguly did, who was far less gifted but made much more of what he had.

 

[VForVendetta]

I started watching around 97-98, which was well past Azhar and Malik’s peak.

I would also add Dravid to the honorable mentions list. I knew i was missing someone and it was him.

He was an excellent number 3 between 1998 and 2005, I have seen people (who obviously didn’t watch him) compare his ODI performances to Younis and Misbah which is total nonsense.

He was no Kohli or Ponting at 3 but a highly accomplished ODI batsman in his own right.

Dravid I believe last played as genuine no 3 in 02,since then he was shoved down forcefully first to 4 & then to 5. But yes for about 4 years he was an excellent no 3 batsman. Wonderful player to have after usual good start provided by Sachin/Sourav.
You have raised an interesting topic.The thing is whether here on PP or in general online I have always found Indian fans disrespecting him far more than Pakistani fans. They are the ones normally adamant about his odi legacy & don't really recognize his greatness as an odi batsman. They till this day continue to blame him for the world cup debacle. Even though Sachin, Sourav, Sehwag, Yuvraj, Dhoni all legends are more or less responsible. There may have been some foolish comparisons with Younus /Misbah in odi's but generally it's his own countrymen who discredit him.

 

[VForVendetta]

With Anwar it was more of a case of attitude than ability.

At times he was too casual in his approach. He would frequently walk across his stumps and get his leg stump knocked off and would frequently nick one to the slip cordon.

Australia and South Africa had terrific pace attacks in his time and in those Australian and South African conditions he couldn’t dig in. Same goes for New Zealand conditions.

He was quite similar to Mark Waugh - exceptionally elegant and talented but almost equally frustrating with their casual and careless dismissals.

I don’t think Anwar would have been able to handle Wasim, Waqar and Shoaib the way Ganguly did, who was far less gifted but made much more of what he had.

You are quite right about that casual approach & comparison with Waugh. Two of my favorites but also two of the most frustrating players I have ever seen. Although I rate Waugh higher in odi's, he was more complete & could handle pace & spin with similar ease something Anwar wasn't capable of.
Did Ganguly really handle the fearsome Pak attack that well? Other than the Adelaide hundred he hasn't really done anything exceptional. The Independence cup knock which made him an overnight sensation came against an attack which had none of these guys. Saqlain, Aaqib & Mahmud were the main bowlers if I remember correctly. I honestly don't remember him being that much upfront against any of these guys. He also always failed against them in icc tournaments, asia cups or sharjah finals.

 

[Farabi]

Till 1997. Sachin scored 9 ODI centuries in 1998 alone.
@Hitman
If my memory serves me right, until 1999/2000, Saeed and Sachin had comparable centuries in ODIs. Both had around 15ish even though Sachin had started much earlier than Saeed.

Sachin was rated higher than Saeed dude to Sachin’s beastly record in test cricket. He averaged like 58 prior to 2000. Saeed also had a remarkable average of 45 as an opener but it wasn’t beastly.

Until the turn of the century, I don’t agree Sachin was that far ahead of Anwar’s impact in ODIs.

 

[Farabi]

@Farabi

I didn’t say Pakistan will never produce a better batsman than Kohli. The chances are slim because Pakistan’s batting culture and legacy are a bit of a joke, but you never know what happens in the future.

You can’t say that about any team. Who knows. Maybe in 2050, the greatest Asian batsman of all time is a Bangladeshi.

Then people will living in the past will say that batting in 2023 was much harder because of XYZ reasons.

Jokes apart, as of 2023, Kohli is clear of all Pakistani batsmen. Past and present.

I agree with you on that. As a complete package, I don’t think Pak has produced a batter at the level of Sachin and Kohli. These 2 are beasts.

 

[chinaman00]

Tendulkar is the most overhyped player in the history of cricket and he owes this notoriety to the fact that throughout the 90s, Tendulkar was the only good player in the Indian team. So, the Indians have marketed him like nobody’s business. To be fair, Tendulkar was a good player, but nothing of the sort being alleged. In tests, many players including Kallis, Sankarkara, Steve Smith etc are easily better than him. Kohli is on equal footing with him. But kohli is miles ahead in white ball cricket than Tendulkar. It’s not even a debate.

This debate of different players, different eras is a deceptive ploy to stop people from looking at the stats. Kohli is easily the most complete batsman out of India, and probably in world cricket given his phenomenal stats in various formats and venues. Numbers don’t lie.

As for the topic,

Yes Younis Khan is better but just marginally.

 

[mominsaigol]

Tendulkar is the most overhyped player in the history of cricket and he owes this notoriety to the fact that throughout the 90s, Tendulkar was the only good player in the Indian team. So, the Indians have marketed him like nobody’s business. To be fair, Tendulkar was a good player, but nothing of the sort being alleged. In tests, many players including Kallis, Sankarkara, Steve Smith etc are easily better than him. Kohli is on equal footing with him. But kohli is miles ahead in white ball cricket than Tendulkar. It’s not even a debate.

This debate of different players, different eras is a deceptive ploy to stop people from looking at the stats. Kohli is easily the most complete batsman out of India, and probably in world cricket given his phenomenal stats in various formats and venues. Numbers don’t lie.

As for the topic,

Yes Younis Khan is better but just marginally.

Tbf Tendulkar played way way better then Kohli during the 2011 to 2012 period when both played together.

Different era argument aside he clearly seemed more at ease playing at the back end of his career from 2007 to 2012 then early onto his career. Kohli outright stated Tendulkar was superior and I don't think he was saying that just to be humble.

Although I will agree kohli is better at chasing and winning you games.

Regardless it'll be really difficult to beat his 100 -100 record, mainly due to the fact that playing 464 odi games is kinda impossible at this point

 

[kron]

Younis wins this one.

Kohli is more like an ODI ATG.

i dont want to offend anyone but is he really an ODI goat ATG ? oh sorry i thought you meant GOAT. yes he is an odi atg sure.
not the best odi batsman however. if he does help india win the 2023 wc then things will change and he would definitely cement himself as one of the best ever.

 

[kron]

I will only rank the players I saw live.

Best ODI batsmen (in order) from Pakistan/India:

1. Kohli
2. Tendulkar
3. Rohit
4. Dhoni
5. Inzamam
6. Babar
7. Yuvraj
8. Ganguly
9. Saeed Anwar
10. Dhawan

Honorable mentions: Yousuf, Sehwag, Gambhir, Raina

can you do one for bowling now?
i would say
imran
wasim
bumrah ?
waqar
shami
shoaib akthar
zaheer khan
amir

 

[kron]

Yes. Anwar made merry against an average Indian attack and was terrible against Australia, South Africa, New Zealand.

Really good in World Cups though but so was Ganguly.

I don’t think Anwar would have been as good against the 90’s Pakistan attack as Ganguly was.

Anwar gets overhyped as an ODI opener because of the iconic 194 and also because ODIs peaked in the 90’s and he flogged the living daylights out of India.

Anwar’s best format was Test cricket and he scored everywhere but unfortunately didn’t play enough Tests for multitude of reasons.

anwar against this current, actually 90s batting of ours against current indian bowling attack would have been much more difficult without question. I cant confidently say we would be able to handle their attack.

 

[Hitman]

Till 1997. Sachin scored 9 ODI centuries in 1998 alone.
@Hitman
If my memory serves me right, until 1999/2000, Saeed and Sachin had comparable centuries in ODIs. Both had around 15ish even though Sachin had started much earlier than Saeed.

Sachin was rated higher than Saeed dude to Sachin’s beastly record in test cricket. He averaged like 58 prior to 2000. Saeed also had a remarkable average of 45 as an opener but it wasn’t beastly.

Until the turn of the century, I don’t agree Sachin was that far ahead of Anwar’s impact in ODIs.

No! By the end of 1999, Saeed Anwar had 17 centuries, while Sachin Tendulkar had 24 centuries in ODI cricket.

Saeed Anwar - https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...9;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

Sachin Tendulkar - https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...9;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

 

[chinaman00]

No! By the end of 1999, Saeed Anwar had 17 centuries, while Sachin Tendulkar had 24 centuries in ODI cricket.

Saeed Anwar - https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...9;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

Sachin Tendulkar - https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...9;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

Tendulkar has played 42 more ODIs by then than Saeed Anwar.

 

[kron]

Tendulkar is the most overhyped player in the history of cricket and he owes this notoriety to the fact that throughout the 90s, Tendulkar was the only good player in the Indian team. So, the Indians have marketed him like nobody’s business. To be fair, Tendulkar was a good player, but nothing of the sort being alleged. In tests, many players including Kallis, Sankarkara, Steve Smith etc are easily better than him. Kohli is on equal footing with him. But kohli is miles ahead in white ball cricket than Tendulkar. It’s not even a debate.

This debate of different players, different eras is a deceptive ploy to stop people from looking at the stats. Kohli is easily the most complete batsman out of India, and probably in world cricket given his phenomenal stats in various formats and venues. Numbers don’t lie.

As for the topic,

Yes Younis Khan is better but just marginally.

i agree whole heartedly but tendulkar is much better than kohli in tests in my opinion. not sure about sangakarra as he failed in aus, s.africa and india quite often.

 

[Hitman]

Tendulkar has played 42 more ODIs by then than Saeed Anwar.

Tendulkar played at #5 or below for the first 79 ODI matches of his career. Saeed Anwar mostly played as an opener.

 

[Hitman]

Tendulkar has played 42 more ODIs by then than Saeed Anwar.

Here are them as openers till 31 Dec 1999 -

Saeed Anwar - 168 (innings); Ave - 41.56; SR - 82.58; 100's - 17

Sachin Tendulkar - 139 (innings); Ave - 48.60; SR - 91.43; 100's - 23


Saeed Anwar - https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...9;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

Sachin Tendulkar - https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...9;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

 

[Farabi]

No! By the end of 1999, Saeed Anwar had 17 centuries, while Sachin Tendulkar had 24 centuries in ODI cricket.

Saeed Anwar - https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...9;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

Sachin Tendulkar - https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...9;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

Got it.

No! By the end of 1999, Saeed Anwar had 17 centuries, while Sachin Tendulkar had 24 centuries in ODI cricket.

Saeed Anwar - https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...9;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

Sachin Tendulkar - https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...9;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

Thanks for pulling this.
Sachin had 35 more games by that point though because he debuted earlier than Saeed and got more cricket.
Also, you have to contextualize numbers. Saeed Anwar was wasted by Imran Khan in his early career. IK hated batters who played lofted shots and kept sending Saeed back to the domestic to learn how to play along the ground. It was not until after IK’s retirement in 1992 that Saeed got regular chances and got to play his natural brand of cricket under Wasim Akram. IK was a superb captain but he saw the openers role to “see off the new ball”. In fact, if my memory serves me right, Saeed A was pigeonholed into a middle order role and he averaged like 25-30 types. His career took off from 1993 and he never looked back.
I think he could have become an ATG if he hadn’t had the family tragedy that completely killed his morale.
Overall though, having watched both Sachin and Saeed in the late 90s, and numbers aside, very hard to say one was comfortably better than the other.

 

[Hitman]

Got it.

Thanks for pulling this.
Sachin had 35 more games by that point though because he debuted earlier than Saeed and got more cricket.
Also, you have to contextualize numbers. Saeed Anwar was wasted by Imran Khan in his early career. IK hated batters who played lofted shots and kept sending Saeed back to the domestic to learn how to play along the ground. It was not until after IK’s retirement in 1992 that Saeed got regular chances and got to play his natural brand of cricket under Wasim Akram. IK was a superb captain but he saw the openers role to “see off the new ball”. In fact, if my memory serves me right, Saeed A was pigeonholed into a middle order role and he averaged like 25-30 types. His career took off from 1993 and he never looked back.
I think he could have become an ATG if he hadn’t had the family tragedy that completely killed his morale.
Overall though, having watched both Sachin and Saeed in the late 90s, and numbers aside, very hard to say one was comfortably better than the other.

Tendulkar played at #5 or below for the first 79 ODI matches of his career. Saeed Anwar mostly played as an opener.

Here are them as openers till 31 Dec 1999 -

Saeed Anwar - 168 (innings); Ave - 41.56; SR - 82.58; 100's - 17

Sachin Tendulkar - 139 (innings); Ave - 48.60; SR - 91.43; 100's - 23

Saeed Anwar - https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...9;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

Sachin Tendulkar - https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...9;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

 

[Farabi]

With Anwar it was more of a case of attitude than ability.

At times he was too casual in his approach. He would frequently walk across his stumps and get his leg stump knocked off and would frequently nick one to the slip cordon.

Australia and South Africa had terrific pace attacks in his time and in those Australian and South African conditions he couldn’t dig in. Same goes for New Zealand conditions.

He was quite similar to Mark Waugh - exceptionally elegant and talented but almost equally frustrating with their casual and careless dismissals.

I don’t think Anwar would have been able to handle Wasim, Waqar and Shoaib the way Ganguly did, who was far less gifted but made much more of what he had.

Real test of technique and ability to play quality fast bowling is in test cricket. Saeed Anwar averaged 45 as a Test opener that too in the 90s. He handled Aussie attack comfortably on test tours there, so harsh to say that Gangully was the more compact opener. Gangully was a top notch ODI opener during 98-2003 but he struggled as a test opener and eventually dropped himself down the order in test cricket, so no I don’t agree with the statement there.

Also, can you name one Indian middle order batter who was better than Inzi across formats?
Dravid didn’t have the success in ODIs and Dhoni didn’t see that much success in tests.
Personally, I rate Inzi as the GOAT middle order batter of all time from India and Pakistan.

 

[Farabi]

Tendulkar played at #5 or below for the first 79 ODI matches of his career. Saeed Anwar mostly played as an opener.

Here are them as openers till 31 Dec 1999 -

Saeed Anwar - 168 (innings); Ave - 41.56; SR - 82.58; 100's - 17

Sachin Tendulkar - 139 (innings); Ave - 48.60; SR - 91.43; 100's - 23

Saeed Anwar - https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...9;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

Sachin Tendulkar - https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...9;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

Thanks for pulling this cut. Looking at this data, I have to agree with you that Sachin was a notch above. This is very compelling

 

[kron]

Real test of technique and ability to play quality fast bowling is in test cricket. Saeed Anwar averaged 45 as a Test opener that too in the 90s. He handled Aussie attack comfortably on test tours there, so harsh to say that Gangully was the more compact opener. Gangully was a top notch ODI opener during 98-2003 but he struggled as a test opener and eventually dropped himself down the order in test cricket, so no I don’t agree with the statement there.

Also, can you name one Indian middle order batter who was better than Inzi across formats?
Dravid didn’t have the success in ODIs and Dhoni didn’t see that much success in tests.
Personally, I rate Inzi as the GOAT middle order batter of all time from India and Pakistan.

cant disagree with that. in tests though would say dravid is slightly ahead.

 

[Hitman]

Real test of technique and ability to play quality fast bowling is in test cricket. Saeed Anwar averaged 45 as a Test opener that too in the 90s. He handled Aussie attack comfortably on test tours there, so harsh to say that Gangully was the more compact opener. Gangully was a top notch ODI opener during 98-2003 but he struggled as a test opener and eventually dropped himself down the order in test cricket, so no I don’t agree with the statement there.

Also, can you name one Indian middle order batter who was better than Inzi across formats?
Dravid didn’t have the success in ODIs and Dhoni didn’t see that much success in tests.
Personally, I rate Inzi as the GOAT middle order batter of all time from India and Pakistan.

Really? They both scored over 10,000 ODI runs, both averages a shade below 40, Dravid has 12 centuries, Inzamam has 10 centuries. The only advantage Inzamam has over Dravid is his SR of 74 compared to Dravid's SR of 71.

 

[Savak]

With Anwar it was more of a case of attitude than ability.

At times he was too casual in his approach. He would frequently walk across his stumps and get his leg stump knocked off and would frequently nick one to the slip cordon.

Australia and South Africa had terrific pace attacks in his time and in those Australian and South African conditions he couldn’t dig in. Same goes for New Zealand conditions.

He was quite similar to Mark Waugh - exceptionally elegant and talented but almost equally frustrating with their casual and careless dismissals.

I don’t think Anwar would have been able to handle Wasim, Waqar and Shoaib the way Ganguly did, who was far less gifted but made much more of what he had.

Imran Khan picked Saeed Anwar after Anwar impressed him in the nets and also trashed Wasim, Waqar in domestic cricket when they were probably at their fastest in 1988-89. Rashid Latif confirmed this.

 

[Savak]

Saeed Anwar was already in decline by 2000-2001 even before he suffered the tragedy.

The tragedy ofcourse affected his morale and training habits. He should not have been picked for the 2003 ODI WC, his form did not justify it, he was selected purely on reputation

 

[Farabi]

Really? They both scored over 10,000 ODI runs, both averages a shade below 40, Dravid has 12 centuries, Inzamam has 10 centuries. The only advantage Inzamam has over Dravid is his SR of 74 compared to Dravid's SR of 71.

Dravid played 1 down and classifies as a top order batter. Inzi played 2/3 down as a middle order batter. I don’t think those stats are comparable in ODIs.
Inzi averaged 50+ at no4/no5 positions, which is extremely rare to see.
The only REAL middle order batter India has produced to date in ODIs is Dhoni. Yuvi was more dynamic but he was never as reliable.
However, Dhoni couldn’t get GOAT batting status in tests.

 

[Hitman]

Dravid played 1 down and classifies as a top order batter. Inzi played 2/3 down as a middle order batter. I don’t think those stats are comparable in ODIs.
Inzi averaged 50+ at no4/no5 positions, which is extremely rare to see.
The only REAL middle order batter India has produced to date in ODIs is Dhoni. Yuvi was more dynamic but he was never as reliable.
However, Dhoni couldn’t get GOAT batting status in tests.

So how exactly did you come to the conclusion that Dravid couldn't get success in ODI cricket?

 

[Farabi]

So how exactly did you come to the conclusion that Dravid couldn't get success in ODI cricket?

He was extremely successful but we are talking about GOAT bar here. I guess I meant that Dravid didn’t have the kind of impact you would have liked to see. 10k is a LOT of runs and he was a fantastic batter nevertheless. That said, he had to wear the gloves post-2003 to make a place in the Indian side, which says a lot about how his own side rated him.
After the arrival of Sehwag, Sachin and Ganguly in the top order, Dravid was completely overshadowed. It’s test cricket where Dravid was a beast and a GOAT.

 

[Farabi]

Saeed Anwar was already in decline by 2000-2001 even before he suffered the tragedy.

The tragedy ofcourse affected his morale and training habits. He should not have been picked for the 2003 ODI WC, his form did not justify it, he was selected purely on reputation

I am not sure how you come to this conclusion.
First, Saeed averaged 40+ in 2000 and 2001 and he and was at his absolute peak. His personal Tragedy happened in 2021 and had a lean 2002. In 2003 he averaged 50+ before he was dropped unfairly.

Imran Khan picked Saeed Anwar after Anwar impressed him in the nets and also trashed Wasim, Waqar in domestic cricket when they were probably at their fastest in 1988-89. Rashid Latif confirmed this.

he may have picked him but he didn’t use him well that’s for sure. IK is on record complaining Saeed needs to improve his batting along the ground

 

[chinaman00]

Saeed Anwar was already in decline by 2000-2001 even before he suffered the tragedy.

The tragedy ofcourse affected his morale and training habits. He should not have been picked for the 2003 ODI WC, his form did not justify it, he was selected purely on reputation

What?

Saeed Anwar was the best batsman for Pakistan during the 2003 cricket World Cup. He averaged 54 in 5 games from 5 games during the 2003 World Cup. In fact, Saeed Anwar was the highest run scorer for Pakistan in each of the World Cup he played. Not to mention his superb century against India in the 2003 World Cup.

@Hitman if possible, can you please share Saeed Anwar’s stats from 2000-2003?

 

[Hitman]

What?

Saeed Anwar was the best batsman for Pakistan during the 2003 cricket World Cup. He averaged 54 in 5 games from 5 games during the 2003 World Cup. In fact, Saeed Anwar was the highest run scorer for Pakistan in each of the World Cup he played. Not to mention his superb century against India in the 2003 World Cup.

@Hitman if possible, can you please share Saeed Anwar’s stats from 2000-2003?

Saeed Anwar from 01 Jan, 2000 till his retirement -


Tests - 16 (innings); Ave - 42.87; SR - 49.89; 100's - 2; 50's - 4
Link:

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

ODI's - 60 (innings); Ave - 36.78; SR - 73.96; 100's - 3; 50's - 10

Link:

Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

 

[chinaman00]

Saeed Anwar from 01 Jan, 2000 till his retirement -


Tests - 16 (innings); Ave - 42.87; SR - 49.89; 100's - 2; 50's - 4
Link:

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

ODI's - 60 (innings); Ave - 36.78; SR - 73.96; 100's - 3; 50's - 10

Link:

Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Thank you very much!