4500-year-old DNA from Rakhigarhi reveals evidence that will unsettle Hindutva nationalists

[Vega]

Facts:

(1) Hindu Religion (along with it's caste system) was first created by the Aryans, who invaded India about 4000 years ago.

(2) From 40000 years to 2000 years ago, the Hindu religion underwent "evolution" till first sacred Hindu religion Text Book "Rigveda" was written.

(3) Aryans were very clever.
They saw that they were less in numbers and it would not be possible for them to keep control of the locals through power for long period of time
Therefore, they introduced the Hindu Religion (along with caste system), where Brahmins were given preference over all others. And the locals were made Shudars and untouchables.

Interesting fact is, Brahmins in today's India have got the most amount of Aryan DNA according to the scientific studies.


The Response of Hindutva Brigade against the science:

Hindutva brigade oppose the scientific findings completely, while according to them:

(1) It were the Hindu gods who created the earth, and then created the mankind.
Off course they deny the Human Evolution completely, as all other religions in this world.

(2) And Hindu religion and the Hindu culture is the most ancient and the greatest religion/culture on the earth.

(3) And high caste Hindus are of noble birth. While remaining all humans on the world were less in status than the high caste Hindus.


Therefore, the scientific findings were totally destroying the Ego and Pride of the Hindutva brigade that it were not the Hindu gods, but the Aryan invaders who created the Hind religion and the caste system.

This forced the Hindutva brigade with their own Scientific Theory, which claims that Aryan DNA didn't come from outside India, but Aryan DNA itself born in India and from there it spread to central Asia and then to whole Europe.

This also forced the Hindutva government of BJP to even harass the International scientists who were working on the DNA studies of the ancient people from all over the world.

Indian Hindutva government tried it best to stop/delay the results of the latest study of the DNA of a woman from Harappa (around 5000 years ago), while this study totally destroyed the Hindutva claim of "Out of India Theory".



Conclusion of latest Scientific Studies:

(1) The 2019 Study of DNA of Harappan Woman showed that Indus Valley Civilisation (which existed till 4000 years ago) got NO Aryan DNA.

(2) But present day Indians have all about 17.5% Aryan DNA.
How that became possible?
Science gives the answer that it was the time when the Aryans from the Russian Steppe invaded India and ended the Indus Valley Civilisation.

(3) DNA shows that it were only the males from the Russian Steppe who arrived in India (i.e. no Aryan women came to India).

(4) Aryan Males (as conquerors) got the first right to mate with the local women, while local men were prohibited on large scale to mate with their women. This aggressive approach resulted in 17.5% Aryan Males DNA in present day Indians


No Hindu gods were found in Harappa or Mohinjo-daro

(1) There were thousands of toys and seals and idols were found in Indus Valley Civilisation, but there was not a single statue of Hindu god found.

(2) And also there were thousands of houses present there, but not single Temple present in Harappa or whole Indus Valley Civilisation.

(3) In fact, Hindu gods are absent in whole India.
The first statue of Hindu god is only about 2500 years old.
Same is about first Hindu temple, which is also only about 2500 years old.

(4) And there are cave paintings in India, which are up to 31000 years old, but again no Hindu god or temple is present in those paintings.

In brief, there is no sign of Hindu religion or Hindu god or Hindu temples which are older than 2500 years in whole India.

All these scientific findings are breaking the Hindutva Pride of being the best of Human Race, and also destroying the claims by Hindutva brigade that Hindu religion is the oldest one in the world.

Please read all these scientific findings, and the harassment of the scientist from the BJP hindutva government and the hidutva Media here:

https://scroll.in/bulletins/250/thi...ll-of-festive-shopping-with-the-joy-of-giving

 

[Mesozoic]

Here comes the frustration venting thread.

Chalo thanda ho jao sab !

 

[pillionrider]

lol go look up Pashupati and Indus Valley Civilization.

That's why practicing Hindus in the South care mostly only about Lord Shiva.

 

[pillionrider]

lol go look up Pashupati and Indus Valley Civilization.

That's why practicing Hindus in the South care mostly only about Lord Shiva.

And not about other addition-subtractions. Especially those who killed Shudras because they dared to dream of absorbing the knowledge contained within scriptures

 

[cricketjoshila]

What is the source of the OP?

 

[Vega]

lol go look up Pashupati and Indus Valley Civilization.

That's why practicing Hindus in the South care mostly only about Lord Shiva.

Pashupati seal is in no way a solid proof of presence of Hindu Religion in the Indus Valley Civilisation.

Use your mind and question yourself, there were thousands of seals and statues who were found in the Indus Valley Civilisation. How come then ONLY ONE Seal has a figure which is some what similar to Shiva?

If Shiva were really a god of the Indus Valley Civilisation people, then there would have been hundreds (if not thousands) of seals with his figure?

Secondly, there is no proof that the figure on the seal was of lord Shiva. None of the statue of Shiva in India is similar to the one in the Pashupati seal. It is only a "Guess" that it is Shiva due to the presence of the animals in the seal.

 

[Akki malhotra]

What is the source of the OP?

Bhai google se dhoond dhaand ke ghanto baad.. Laaya hi kuch naya...

 

[Vega]

The Pashupati Seal Drama of the Hindtutva Brigade:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashupati_seal

Here is the seal:




(1) Es explained earlier, there was Only One Pashupati seal recovered from whole of Indus Valley Civilisation.
It lord Shiva was really worshipped by the Indus Valley people, then there should have been thousands of such seals and statues of Shiva should have been present there, along with temples.

(2) And nowhere it has been written that this person in the seal is lord Shiva. It is only a guess by the Hindutva supporters. Their argument is:

* Animals are present in this seal. And lord Shiva was the master of animals too. This this person is the seal should be lord Shiva

* Secondly, Shiva was master of Yoga. And this person is sitting in a Yoga position.

Both these conjectures provide no solid proof. Here is the original Shiva which is found in the Hindu temples from beginning till today.



You can see that Indian Lord Shiva has no "HORNS", and his Yoga style is also different.

More about Yoga please the refutation here.


The Celtic god "Cernunnos" has more resemblance to the Pashupati Seal than the lord Shiva:

Here is the Celtic god Lord Cernunnos:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cernunnos

Contrary to the lord Shiva, this Celtic god Cenunnos has the Horns, and animals are also there and he is also sitting in position very much similar to the Pashupati seal.

Cernunnos is Lord of the Animals, and, in Celtic lore, is the master of the Wild Hunt. He has associations with prosperity and fertility. An important characteristic of Celtic myth and legend is zoomorphism, the transmogrification of humans to animals and animals to humans. Since zoomorphism is also linked to shamanism, it strengthens the connection between the central European origins of the Celts and the plains tribes of the Russian steppes, where shamanism first sprang up.

 

[Vega]

What is the source of the OP?

Here is the Source.

https://scroll.in/article/936872/tw...y-so-why-did-indian-media-report-the-opposite

 

[cricketjoshila]

Here is the Source.

https://scroll.in/article/936872/tw...y-so-why-did-indian-media-report-the-opposite

The article says nothing that you claim about hindu religion caste system etc.

In

 

[cricketjoshila]

Admins please check the link and see what the op is claiming.

 

[pillionrider]

Here is the original Shiva which is found in the Hindu temples from beginning till today.

View attachment 96943

Unfortunately you don't know much about what you're talking.

The Hoysaleswara temple Shiva for example is miles different in his depiction from the carvings in Mahabalipuram where Pashupati is shown with more beastly features. These are just two examples off the top of the head of a person who hasn't visited temples for religious purposes in a long long time now.

 

[Vega]

The article says nothing that you claim about hindu religion caste system etc.

In

Firstly, do you agree with all that has been written in the article? Or do you deny it?
For example, this has been claimed in the article:

(1) Harappa woman had not sign of Aryan DNA
(2) But today all Indian groups have about 17.5% Aryan DNA.
(3) It proves the Aryan Invasion Theory after the fall of the Indus Valley Civilisation about 4000 years ago.
(4) Indian Hidutva Government of BJP harassing the International Scientists and not allowing the free access to their studies.
(5) Indian Hindutva Media reporting exactly the opposite of the study and denying Aryan Invasion Theory in name of this latest study of 2019
(6) In fact, the Hindu Scientist who did this study of DNA of Harappan woman, he is himself a Bhagat and he is also denying the Aryan Invasion Theory on the bases that no trace of Aryan DNA was found in this woman. But this is plain stupidity from this scientist while Aryan Invasion happened only after the fall of the Indus Valley Civilisation, and thus off course Aryan DNA could not be found in the DNA of this woman.


There are other articles along with it which are proving the same thing about the religion. Let me quote them one by one here.

First: The Indus Valley People had nothing to do with the Hindu Religion:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilisation#Religion

Here is the first link which proves that nothing was found about Hindu Religion in the Indus Valley Civilisation excavations.

About Pashupati seal, I have made the things clear above. Please go ahead to deny them.

(wait for the further proofs).

 

[warcry]

in other words:
indians are non native to the subcontinent and go back to russia from where they came from. Also they should take their foreign gods with them and never return.

 

[Vega]

Unfortunately you don't know much about what you're talking.

The Hoysaleswara temple Shiva for example is miles different in his depiction from the carvings in Mahabalipuram where Pashupati is shown with more beastly features. These are just two examples off the top of the head of a person who hasn't visited temples for religious purposes in a long long time now.

Even if you come with thousands of different depictions of lord Shiva from India, but if they are not similar to the one in the Pashupati Seal, till then it could not be proved with certainty that it is lord Shiva on the seal, but it will remain a conjecture by the Hindutva brigade.

And you didn't touch the other proofs and arguments which I provided i.e.

(1) Only One Seal is present (or perhaps 2 with another such seal). Nevertheless, if Harappans really worshipped Shiva, then there should have been thousands of seals and statues of Shiva should be present in the excavations.
And there is no Mandir present in whole of IVC (indus valley civilisation).

(2) What about Celtic Lord Cernunnos, which has lot more resemblance to the Pashupati Seal than any of the depiction of Shiva that have been found in whole of India?

 

[Mesozoic]

in other words:
indians are non native to the subcontinent and go back to russia from where they came from. Also they should take their foreign gods with them and never return.

Well you do realise that you too come under the same group that you're calling "Indians". Right ?

 

[cricketjoshila]

Firstly, do you agree with all that has been written in the article? Or do you deny it?
For example, this has been claimed in the article:

(1) Harappa woman had not sign of Aryan DNA
(2) But today all Indian groups have about 17.5% Aryan DNA.
(3) It proves the Aryan Invasion Theory after the fall of the Indus Valley Civilisation about 4000 years ago.
(4) Indian Hidutva Government of BJP harassing the International Scientists and not allowing the free access to their studies.
(5) Indian Hindutva Media reporting exactly the opposite of the study and denying Aryan Invasion Theory in name of this latest study of 2019
(6) In fact, the Hindu Scientist who did this study of DNA of Harappan woman, he is himself a Bhagat and he is also denying the Aryan Invasion Theory on the bases that no trace of Aryan DNA was found in this woman. But this is plain stupidity from this scientist while Aryan Invasion happened only after the fall of the Indus Valley Civilisation, and thus off course Aryan DNA could not be found in the DNA of this woman.


There are other articles along with it which are proving the same thing about the religion. Let me quote them one by one here.

First: The Indus Valley People had nothing to do with the Hindu Religion:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilisation#Religion

Here is the first link which proves that nothing was found about Hindu Religion in the Indus Valley Civilisation excavations.

About Pashupati seal, I have made the things clear above. Please go ahead to deny them.

(wait for the further proofs).

No i dont agree with the article.Or anything that you say.

 

[Technics 1210]

It's a well known fact there is no religion known as Hinduism, it was always Brahmanism.

 

[Vega]

2nd Proof: Hindu Religion is absent in whole Indian History, which is older than 3000 years

Cave Paintings:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_paintings_in_India

Almost all early painting in India survives in caves, as very few buildings from Ancient India survive, and though these were probably often painted, the work has been lost. The history of cave paintings in India or rock art range from drawings and paintings from prehistoric times, beginning around 30,000 BCE in the caves of Central India, typified by those at the Bhimbetka rock shelters





While the oldest Statues in the world are about 30,000 years old.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue


Now it has been claimed that the Vedic gods are the most ancient ones who actually created the world, the Vedic Civilizaiton is the most ancient one, and they possessed the best craftsmanship.

But then how could we answer this question that the paintings of Vedic gods are not even 4500 years old, despite thousands of other paintings and statues surviving which are much older than 4500 years old?

 

[Vega]

No i dont agree with the article.Or anything that you say.

In this case, you have to come up with your proofs and arguments and deny the facts provided in the article with reference to the scientific studies.

At moment, science is totally destroying the claims of the Hindu Religion and the Hindutva Pride. You cannot win against the science by merely coming up with your conjectures.

 

[Vega]

3rd Proof: It were the Aryans who created the Hindu Religion and the Caste System:

The Scientific Studies showed that these are the Hindu Brahmins, who have the most Aryan DNA as compared to the others.

Hindu religion was not formed on the first day when Aryans arrived in India. No, it took the religious evolution of next 2000 years to form the present Hindu Religion.

Proof is this that according to several scientific studies, Indians of all groups mated with each other freely between the window of 4000 years to 2000 years ago, and once the Rigveda (Hindu Sacred Book) was written and the religion established in advanced form and the caste system came into being, then these freely mixing of Hindu groups with each other stopped and India became "endogamous" and they did not marry any more across the caste lines.


Link to the Scientific Study:

Quote begins:
Once these Steppe people entered India, a great churning ensued. They mixed with the Indus Valley people to create what is now called the Ancestral North Indian grouping. However, a significant portion of the people of the Indus Valley Civilisation were pushed south when the Steppe people entered. They then mixed with the Ancient Ancestral South Indians to form a group known as the Ancestral South Indian population.

For the next 2,000 years, Indians mixed freely. As a result, most modern South Asians are some mix of Ancestral North Indian and Ancestral South Indian. However, this great churning stopped around 1,900 years ago when Indian society calcified into thousands of endogamous groups who do not intermarry across caste lines – a societal structure maintained till today.

Quote Ends.

 

[miandadrules]

No i dont agree with the article.Or anything that you say.

And why is that?

 

[miandadrules]

No i dont agree with the article.Or anything that you say.

Other than your right wing sensibilities being hurt.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Hinduism is a great religion. It's one of the best religions. They are great people. I love hindus.

 

[Napa]

Facts:

(1) Hindu Religion (along with it's caste system) was first created by the Aryans, who invaded India about 4000 years ago.

Why stop at 4,000 years? Go back far enough and we all came from East Africa.

While it is not clear where Indo-Europeans originated, it is quite clear that they are marked by Y-chromosome haplogroup R. The ancestor of R was P1, and it may even have originated east of India. So the ancestors of Aryans, started out from Africa, crossed India into Southeast Asia, and then crossed back over India to Central Asia and Persia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R_(Y-DNA)#Origins

As R2 exists mainly in India, there is a fair case to be made that R originated in South Asia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R2

If the Indo-Europeans came from the haplogroup population R rather than R1, then their origin is most certainly South Asia.

There major two strands of Indo-Europeans, R1a (India, Persia, Ukraine, Russia, Germany etc.) and R1b (Ireland, England, Italy, Spain etc.).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1

Indo-European ancestry is present in many different Indian communities, by no means is it exclusive to Brahmins. You can see the DNA Y-chromosome haplogroup distributions of South Asian communities in the article below.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_..._of_South_Asia

Interestingly, Chamars (a formerly "untouchable" caste) have 38.9% R1a ancestry, while Chaturvedis (Brahmins versed in all 4 Vedas) have only 23.9%.

If you go back a bit further, all the way to haplogroup F, most of the Chinese, Indo-Europeans, Semites, Dravidians etc. originated in South Asia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_F-M89

Here is a picture (from Wiki) to help understand the migrations of haplogroup F ancient Indians to most of the world outside of Africa.



The above picture misses the Americas, but they are also populated by haplogroup F (descendant haplogroups R1 and Q).

Read a bit about this subject before you post instead of relying on just one article. There is a lot of recent research and data on population genetics which gives us a reasonably accurate picture of migrations. Also, please don't use larger font, it is jarring.
[MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION]

 

[mgtow]

Make sense. I always emphasized that Bhagvad Gita promotes Monotheism practice as in ONENESS OF GOD - no parents nor children - None like unto GOD. Bhagvad Gita is pretty clear on that, and to the extent the description of GOD aka A CREATOR is described as IMAGELESS CREATOR - roughly meaning No one has seen GOD - not even Avatars from Bhagvad Gita and not even Prophet Ram (PBUH) who also never claimed to be GOD or son of GOD.

 

[hussain.r97]

Don't think this is anything new, these DNA findings only reaffirm what was already known.

 

[pillionrider]

Even if you come with thousands of different depictions of lord Shiva from India, but if they are not similar to the one in the Pashupati Seal, till then it could not be proved with certainty that it is lord Shiva on the seal, but it will remain a conjecture by the Hindutva brigade.

And you didn't touch the other proofs and arguments which I provided i.e.

(1) Only One Seal is present (or perhaps 2 with another such seal). Nevertheless, if Harappans really worshipped Shiva, then there should have been thousands of seals and statues of Shiva should be present in the excavations.
And there is no Mandir present in whole of IVC (indus valley civilisation).

(2) What about Celtic Lord Cernunnos, which has lot more resemblance to the Pashupati Seal than any of the depiction of Shiva that have been found in whole of India?

You're picking your fraud battle with someone who could care less about history.

As far as modern Hinduism goes, I think it's under 2000 years old and was organized together by Adi Shankara. I don't care who my ancestors were. Have said it multiple times before - I consider it lucky I know who my Dad is. And so should you.

The rest of your fraud agenda is bunkum as proven by your internet knowledge of how Shiva has been depicted.

 

[Vega]

[MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION]
You should read the 2017 Study by Dr. Richards and his team, who has put the final nail in the coffin of "OUt of India Theory".

 

[Vega]

[MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION]

Here is the LATEST Study from 2017, which put final nail is the coffin of Out of India Theory.

The name of Study is: A genetic chronology for the Indian Subcontinent points to heavily sex-biased dispersals

It has been peer reviewed and published in journal ‘BMC Evolutionary Biology’.

Here is the direct link to this complete study: https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12862-017-0936-9

Here is the Conclusion why older Studies were wrong:

Quote begins:

Until recently, only data on mtDNA (or matrilineal DNA, transmitted only from mother to daughter) were available and that seemed to suggest there was little external infusion into the Indian gene pool over the last 12,500 years or so. New Y-DNA data has turned that conclusion upside down, with strong evidence of external infusion of genes into the Indian male lineage during the period in question.

The reason for the difference in mtDNA and Y-DNA data is obvious in hindsight: there was strong sex bias in Bronze Age migrations. In other words, those who migrated were predominantly male and, therefore, those gene flows do not really show up in the mtDNA data. On the other hand, they do show up in the Y-DNA data: specifically, about 17.5% of Indian male lineage has been found to belong to haplogroup R1a (haplogroups identify a single line of descent), which is today spread across Central Asia, Europe and South Asia. Pontic-Caspian Steppe is seen as the region from where R1a spread both west and east, splitting into different sub-branches along the way...

So in a nutshell: R1a is distributed all over Europe, Central Asia and South Asia; its sub-group Z282 is distributed only in Europe while another subgroup Z93 is distributed only in parts of Central Asia and South Asia; and three major subgroups of Z93 are distributed only in India, Pakistan, Afghanistan and the Himalayas. This clear picture of the distribution of R1a has finally put paid to an earlier hypothesis that this haplogroup perhaps originated in India and then spread outwards. This hypothesis was based on the erroneous assumption that R1a lineages in India had huge diversity compared to other regions, which could be indicative of its origin here. As Prof. Richards puts it, “the idea that R1a is very diverse in India, which was largely based on fuzzy microsatellite data, has been laid to rest” thanks to the arrival of large numbers of genomic Y-chromosome data.

Quote Ends.

You can read more about it here.

This 2017 Study is still the latest Study on this subject and no other Study has been published afterwards which contradicts this study.

 

[Napa]

[MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION]
You should read the 2017 Study by Dr. Richards and his team, who has put the final nail in the coffin of "OUt of India Theory".

The issue of which endogamous groups from history our modern populations derive from is much more complex than just looking at a possible migration 12,500 years ago. I know too much of this subject to waste time reading individual papers.

The evidence from the haplogroups is quite clear. About 50,000 years ago, there was a group/tribe in India where the mutation defining Y-ch haplogroup F originated. Today 90% of non-African males have this mutation, so their patrilineal ancestor was from India.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_F-M89

There was a group/tribe in Southeast or East Asia where the mutation defining haplogroup Y-ch P1 originated. P1 is a descendant of F and the ancestor of R.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_P1_(Y-DNA)

About 27,000 years ago, there was a group/tribe in India where the mutation defining haplogroup R originated. R's descendants were R1 and R2. Given that R2 is found overwhelmingly in India, it is reasonable to assume R came from a group/tribe based in India.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R_(Y-DNA)

If you wish to discuss this with me further you should first read a few articles to understand what Y-chromosome and mtDNA haplogroups mean and what their frequencies in different modern populations imply. Next read about the distributions of the F, P, R and H haplogroups. No more replies from me unless I see evidence in your posts that you have an understanding of the scientific evidence on this subject, something which I have not seen till now.

 

[Vega]

I know too much of this subject to waste time reading individual papers.

What?

Do you really know more than Dr. Richard and his team of 32 world known scientists?

This is the biggest team ever who is working on the biggest project ever in this subject up till now. I wonder how in your dreams you could imagine that you know more about this subject than Dr. Richard and his team.

If you still consider yourself to be better than Dr. Richard and his team, then you are welcome to refute their Study.

Actually Bhagats have gone mad after the publishing of 2017 Study of this team. Not only the Bhagat India Media is trying to run away from the results of this study, but the Hindutva government of BJP tried it's best to harass this team in order to get the results which suit their Hindutva Pride.


Read here what Dr. Richard and his team has to tell the world about the behaviour of the Hindutva government of BJP (link).

 

[IndianHero]

What?

Do you really know more than Dr. Richard and his team of 32 world known scientists?

This is the biggest team ever who is working on the biggest project ever in this subject up till now. I wonder how in your dreams you could imagine that you know more about this subject than Dr. Richard and his team.

If you still consider yourself to be better than Dr. Richard and his team, then you are welcome to refute their Study.

Actually Bhagats have gone mad after the publishing of 2017 Study of this team. Not only the Bhagat India Media is trying to run away from the results of this study, but the Hindutva government of BJP tried it's best to harass this team in order to get the results which suit their Hindutva Pride.


Read here what Dr. Richard and his team has to tell the world about the behaviour of the Hindutva government of BJP (link).

This is why ur argument in this thread is flawed Sir. You have based ur so called 'evidence' on someone's book which don't stand a chance in any court of law.

For ex: If I ask to prove that 'Earth is not flat & spherical in shape'... Now the most correct way to prove it in any court of law in this world is to either send a satellite or send humans to space to record the shape of earth. But ur argument is like that XYZ person said 'Earth is flat and that XYZ person is so famous we all have to believe him'

This is where ur argument has so many loop holes.

Now coming back to topic, I may not be aryan, I am south india & my ancestors were born & brought up in south India. So where does millions of south indians like me fit in ur category ? We are dravidians (may be) but may not be aryans as ur per theory...

If you still feel that u have lots of evidence to claim otherwise please handover them to some lawyers in India for fighting/reviewing the ayodhya case again lol...

#Mandirwaahibanega

 

[Captain caveman]

This is why ur argument in this thread is flawed Sir. You have based ur so called 'evidence' on someone's book which don't stand a chance in any court of law.

For ex: If I ask to prove that 'Earth is not flat & spherical in shape'... Now the most correct way to prove it in any court of law in this world is to either send a satellite or send humans to space to record the shape of earth. But ur argument is like that XYZ person said 'Earth is flat and that XYZ person is so famous we all have to believe him'

This is where ur argument has so many loop holes.

Now coming back to topic, I may not be aryan, I am south india & my ancestors were born & brought up in south India. So where does millions of south indians like me fit in ur category ? We are dravidians (may be) but may not be aryans as ur per theory...

If you still feel that u have lots of evidence to claim otherwise please handover them to some lawyers in India for fighting/reviewing the ayodhya case again lol...

#Mandirwaahibanega

I dont really care about this topic but just wanted to correct the rubbish you are posting,
every court in the world accepts professional expert testimony!
It is worth more than your silly laymans rabblings!

 

[IndianHero]

I dont really care about this topic but just wanted to correct the rubbish you are posting,
every court in the world accepts professional expert testimony!
It is worth more than your silly laymans rabblings!

Expert testimony based on facts or findings which can b verified at any point in time in the court of law not some pulp fiction

 

[Vega]

This is why ur argument in this thread is flawed Sir. You have based ur so called 'evidence' on someone's book which don't stand a chance in any court of law.

For ex: If I ask to prove that 'Earth is not flat & spherical in shape'... Now the most correct way to prove it in any court of law in this world is to either send a satellite or send humans to space to record the shape of earth. But ur argument is like that XYZ person said 'Earth is flat and that XYZ person is so famous we all have to believe him'

This is where ur argument has so many loop holes.

Expert testimony based on facts or findings which can b verified at any point in time in the court of law not some pulp fiction

I have absolutely no Idea of what you are talking about.

Do you think that study by this huge team of world's well known 32 Scientists will be rejected in the court, but your conjectures will be accepted?

It is simply a mad thing that you claiming here.

This is the latest study of 2017, which had the Data of all previous studies at it's hand. No other study has been done after that which could contradict it. This huge study was not only limited to India, but it was spread from India to Central Asia and up to whole Europe.

According to Dr. Richard, whole Europe and Central Asian countries and their scientists fully accepted the study. But the Hindutva BJP government of India started harassing this team. And then also BJP government delayed the study of DNA of Harappan woman, which again fully confirmed the findings of the Dr. Richard and his team.

 

[Akki malhotra]

Today I went to buy vegetables outside . I told sabji wala.... Bro you came from Russia here... Sahi sahi rate lgale..He was like... Arre bau ji.. Kya kehvat ho.. Hum samjha ni..... Hahaha

 

[Captain caveman]

Expert testimony based on facts or findings which can b verified at any point in time in the court of law not some pulp fiction

If the bloke has a doctrate in the field, he would be classed by courts as an expert witness.

 

[Captain caveman]

Today I went to buy vegetables outside . I told sabji wala.... Bro you came from Russia here... Sahi sahi rate lgale..He was like... Arre bau ji.. Kya kehvat ho.. Hum samjha ni..... Hahaha

On a side note, alot of russians like bollywood movies...makes you think

 

[Captain caveman]

On a side note, alot of russians like bollywood movies...makes you think

Also , if you shave vladmir putins head and give him a tan, some glasses and a white cloth to wear, he would look alot like gandhi!

 

[Vega]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_South_Asia

Interestingly, Chamars (a formerly "untouchable" caste) have 38.9% R1a ancestry, while Chaturvedis (Brahmins versed in all 4 Vedas) have only 23.9%.

Have you seen that at top of this Chart, it has been written: "Note: The converted frequencies from some old studies conducted in the first decade of the 21st century may lead to unsubstantial frequencies below. "

And both studies about Chamars and Chaturvedis are old one and carried out in this first decade.


Why the lower Castes have Aryan DNA?

The 2017 Study already answered it, and posted it above.

When Aryans (only Males) came 4000 years ago, then there was no Hindu Religion or the Caste System there. But the Aryan Males mated with all the local women, from North India to the South India. As conqueror, they got the first right to mating as compared to the local males. This explains how this huge number of 17.5% Aryan DNA came in the modern Indians.

And this continued for the next 2000 years till the Hindu Religion "evolved" and finally the ruling classed stopped this practice in name of Religon and the caste system in the Rigveda (the Hindu Religious Book).

Link to the Scientific Study:

Quote begins:
Once these Steppe people entered India, a great churning ensued. They mixed with the Indus Valley people to create what is now called the Ancestral North Indian grouping. However, a significant portion of the people of the Indus Valley Civilisation were pushed south when the Steppe people entered. They then mixed with the Ancient Ancestral South Indians to form a group known as the Ancestral South Indian population.

For the next 2,000 years, Indians mixed freely. As a result, most modern South Asians are some mix of Ancestral North Indian and Ancestral South Indian. However, this great churning stopped around 1,900 years ago when Indian society calcified into thousands of endogamous groups who do not intermarry across caste lines – a societal structure maintained till today.

Quote Ends.

 

[IndianHero]

I have absolutely no Idea of what you are talking about.

Do you think that study by this huge team of world's well known 32 Scientists will be rejected in the court, but your conjectures will be accepted?

It is simply a mad thing that you claiming here.

This is the latest study of 2017, which had the Data of all previous studies at it's hand. No other study has been done after that which could contradict it. This huge study was not only limited to India, but it was spread from India to Central Asia and up to whole Europe.

According to Dr. Richard, whole Europe and Central Asian countries and their scientists fully accepted the study. But the Hindutva BJP government of India started harassing this team. And then also BJP government delayed the study of DNA of Harappan woman, which again fully confirmed the findings of the Dr. Richard and his team.

Hmm first of all you have conveniently skipped the second half of my post as it seems u don't have any answers for that lol.. haha

I am from south india and my ancestors have lived thousands of years in south india. So millions of south indians or Dravidians like me lived in southern part practiced sanatana dharma or hinduism for thousands of years. No aryan came to elsewhere to convert us or taught us this practice.


https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.co...862-017-0936-9

"R1a-M17 (R1a-M198 or R1a1a) accounts for 17.5% of male lineages in Indian data overall, and it displays significantly higher frequencies in Indo-European than in Dravidian speakers"

The quote is from above link and the above link which u gave agrees that south india had more dravidian influence than aryan one..


So where does we fit in when we have been practicing our great religion since ages ?


So basically ur so called links or ur theory doesn't explain on how come hinduism/shaivism was practiced amongst dravidians if aryans actually brought hinduism to south india lol... ur theory has lot of flaws. Infact looking on skin color one can easily differentiate between typical north indian & south indian as we tend to have little bit darker skin (not all though). So basically our genes are different.

 

[Vega]

Hmm first of all you have conveniently skipped the second half of my post as it seems u don't have any answers for that lol.. haha

I am from south india and my ancestors have lived thousands of years in south india. So millions of south indians or Dravidians like me lived in southern part practiced sanatana dharma or hinduism for thousands of years. No aryan came to elsewhere to convert us or taught us this practice.


https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.co...862-017-0936-9

"R1a-M17 (R1a-M198 or R1a1a) accounts for 17.5% of male lineages in Indian data overall, and it displays significantly higher frequencies in Indo-European than in Dravidian speakers"

The quote is from above link and the above link which u gave agrees that south india had more dravidian influence than aryan one..


So where does we fit in when we have been practicing our great religion since ages ?


So basically ur so called links or ur theory doesn't explain on how come hinduism/shaivism was practiced amongst dravidians if aryans actually brought hinduism to south india lol... ur theory has lot of flaws. Infact looking on skin color one can easily differentiate between typical north indian & south indian as we tend to have little bit darker skin (not all though). So basically our genes are different.

It seems you agree that first part of your post was illogical where you were denying the scholarship of the world 32 well known Scientists.

As far as 2nd part of your post is concerned, then the answer was already there in the article that I posted above.

(1) Firstly, Hindu religion was not created on the first day of the arrival of Aryans. No, but it took next 2000 years to evolve.

(2) And for the next 2000 years, also all Indian groups were marrying each other. Thus the Aryan DNA also transferred to the South.

(3) There is no Proof that the Hindu Religion was practised in the South India before the arrival of the Aryans i.e. before 4000 years ago.

Hindu religion evolved after the arrival of Aryans, and then Rigveda was written during the era of the Aryans in India.

 

[IndianHero]

It seems you agree that first part of your post was illogical where you were denying the scholarship of the world 32 well known Scientists.

As far as 2nd part of your post is concerned, then the answer was already there in the article that I posted above.

(1) Firstly, Hindu religion was not created on the first day of the arrival of Aryans. No, but it took next 2000 years to evolve.

(2) And for the next 2000 years, also all Indian groups were marrying each other. Thus the Aryan DNA also transferred to the South.

(3) There is no Proof that the Hindu Religion was practised in the South India before the arrival of the Aryans i.e. before 4000 years ago.

Hindu religion evolved after the arrival of Aryans, and then Rigveda was written during the era of the Aryans in India.

lol.. hahaha Now I am enjoying this ...

who is talking illogical.. from the link u gave.. it says like this..


"R1a-M17 (R1a-M198 or R1a1a) accounts for 17.5% of male lineages in Indian data overall, and it displays significantly higher frequencies in Indo-European than in Dravidian speakers"


It clearly differentiates between aryans and dravidians. If all indian groups were marrying each other and if we have aryan DNA why the research says north indians have significantly more resemblence of aryan DNA than dravidian speakers ?


Forget all this research, simple common sense is needed.. a typical south Indian looks darker, wear dhoti , eats different cuisine, speaks different language etc.,

Similarly ppl from north east indian states have smaller eyes & wide noses,, different skin tone, different cuisine than south indians/north indians as they have different DNA than us. So if some researcher says north east indians have aryan DNA will u believe it ? lol... hahaha...

If north east indians have aryan DNA then y do those 7 sister states ppl have smaller eyes , wider noses like chinese & r different from northies ?

If we south indians or dravidians have aryan DNA then y we had darker skin colors (even in cooler places of south india) , different culture etc., than northies ??


hahaha now who is talking illogical ?

Sir, ur not believing in the link u copy pasted which says dravidians have very less aryan DNA.. Read this again.. https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.co...862-017-0936-9

 

[Vega]

lol.. hahaha Now I am enjoying this ...

who is talking illogical.. from the link u gave.. it says like this..


"R1a-M17 (R1a-M198 or R1a1a) accounts for 17.5% of male lineages in Indian data overall, and it displays significantly higher frequencies in Indo-European than in Dravidian speakers"


It clearly differentiates between aryans and dravidians.

Unfortunately, your attitude is morally corrupt. You know the truth, but still you put words in my mouth to deny the truth.

Where did we talk about Dravidian?

You denied that Aryans brought Hindu religion to South India. Upon that I had to show you that Aryans indeed reached South India, along with their newly created Hindu Religion, and thus the Aryan DNA is also present in the present South Indians.

Challenges for You:

1. Take out the Aryan DNA from the South Indians. Only then you could prove your statement that Aryans could not have brought the Hindu Religion to the South India.

2. Show us the presence of Hindu Religion before 4000 years ago in South India (or whole of India, including the Harappa and Mohinjo-daro and whole Indus Valley Civilisation).

 

[troodon]

From what I know, the dna of a woman found there was of a South Indian. Goes to show that the entire Indus Valley civilization was completely South Indian. It has nothing to do with the modern Pakistanis and some North Indians. They are all outsiders who came and mixed with us southies. It is correctly shown in your dna today.

 

[srh]

OP's arguments are compelling and nobody has debunked them yet in this thread; laughing at him or belittling him would not work; disapprove it with solid counter arguments

 

[Vega]

From what I know, the dna of a woman found there was of a South Indian. Goes to show that the entire Indus Valley civilization was completely South Indian. It has nothing to do with the modern Pakistanis and some North Indians. They are all outsiders who came and mixed with us southies. It is correctly shown in your dna today.

Brother, I don't want to divert the original discussion about creation of Hindu Religion after the arrival of Aryans.

But briefly, please also consider that Harappan Woman also had Iranian DNA.

And then Aryans reached till South India, and there were free intermarriages between South Indians and the North Indians for the next 2000 years.

We are very much mixed today. Some have more Aryan, some have less Aryan. Some have more Dravidian, some have less Dravidian .... i.e. North Indians are also only 17.5% Aryans, and rest they are also Dravidians.

And very important thing, it is not our ancestors or our DNA or our religion which make us great, but it is the humanity in us which makes us great.

 

[Napa]

Brother, I don't want to divert the original discussion about creation of Hindu Religion after the arrival of Aryans.

But briefly, please also consider that Harappan Woman also had Iranian DNA.

And then Aryans reached till South India, and there were free intermarriages between South Indians and the North Indians for the next 2000 years.

We are very much mixed today. Some have more Aryan, some have less Aryan. Some have more Dravidian, some have less Dravidian .... i.e. North Indians are also only 17.5% Aryans, and rest they are also Dravidians.

And very important thing, it is not our ancestors or our DNA or our religion which make us great, but it is the humanity in us which makes us great.

I agree with your sentiments, well said!

 

[CricFan2012]

This thread doesn't surprise me one bit, all religions are a fabrication, and if you rationally think about it, there's no way it should exist.

Too bad most people are afraid of not knowing and happy to be ignorant, so believe in fairytales that were forced into them from such a young age, not to mention it's incredibly hard to get rid of dogma from parents.

 

[IndianHero]

Unfortunately, your attitude is morally corrupt. You know the truth, but still you put words in my mouth to deny the truth.

Where did we talk about Dravidian?

You denied that Aryans brought Hindu religion to South India. Upon that I had to show you that Aryans indeed reached South India, along with their newly created Hindu Religion, and thus the Aryan DNA is also present in the present South Indians.

Challenges for You:

1. Take out the Aryan DNA from the South Indians. Only then you could prove your statement that Aryans could not have brought the Hindu Religion to the South India.

2. Show us the presence of Hindu Religion before 4000 years ago in South India (or whole of India, including the Harappa and Mohinjo-daro and whole Indus Valley Civilisation).

Brother, I don't want to divert the original discussion about creation of Hindu Religion after the arrival of Aryans.

But briefly, please also consider that Harappan Woman also had Iranian DNA.

And then Aryans reached till South India, and there were free intermarriages between South Indians and the North Indians for the next 2000 years.

We are very much mixed today. Some have more Aryan, some have less Aryan. Some have more Dravidian, some have less Dravidian .... i.e. North Indians are also only 17.5% Aryans, and rest they are also Dravidians.

And very important thing, it is not our ancestors or our DNA or our religion which make us great, but it is the humanity in us which makes us great.

Red : Isn't that the same thing which I was talking above in my posts that we are less aryan & more dravidians as we are from south india. In fact the link u shared says the same about south indias & finally u agreed with this point. So, topic is over on this.


With regards to ur so called challenges about age of hinduism, well at this moment archaeologists are doing some carbon dating C-14 research with excavations and they have found cities like dwaraka (underwater) which dates beyond 8000 years.

Hindu religious scriptures talk about ancient city of dwaraka (ruled by lord krishna) and its characteristics.

Archaeologists have found city called dwaraka mentioned similarly like in hindu texts and they estimate it to be 8000 old. Archaeologists have found two cities of size of Manhattan which dates beyond indus valley civilization. More info at below neutral sources :

https://www.gounesco.com/where-mythology-meets-reality-sunken-city-of-dwarka/

Please do watch the below video of comprising documentary of foreign scientists & archaelogists :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQZFS9Hij0M

 

[Vega]

Red :

With regards to ur so called challenges about age of hinduism, well at this moment archaeologists are doing some carbon dating C-14 research with excavations and they have found cities like dwaraka (underwater) which dates beyond 8000 years.

Hindu religious scriptures talk about ancient city of dwaraka (ruled by lord krishna) and its characteristics.

Archaeologists have found city called dwaraka mentioned similarly like in hindu texts and they estimate it to be 8000 old. Archaeologists have found two cities of size of Manhattan which dates beyond indus valley civilization. More info at below neutral sources :

https://www.gounesco.com/where-mythology-meets-reality-sunken-city-of-dwarka/

Please do watch the below video of comprising documentary of foreign scientists & archaelogists :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQZFS9Hij0M

There have been ZERO proofs of Hindu religion in the sunken city of Dwarka up till now.

Not a single Hindu god or temple or any other thing has been found in Dwarka which shows Hinduism.

Let us see what Hindu sacred book is claiming about Dwarka.

Taken from Link that you posted yourself above:


https://www.gounesco.com/where-mythology-meets-reality-sunken-city-of-dwarka/

//
Mahabharat says that Dwarka had 900,000 royal palaces, all constructed with crystal and silver and decorated with emeralds. The city was connected by an elaborate system of boulevards, roads, market places, assembly houses and temples.
//

While up till now no crystal, silver or emeralds have been found. What scientists found was this:

 

[PakLFC]

Hindu God's created nothing! Throughout history their have been many forms of idolatry like the ancient Arab's, the forefathers of our Prophet(SAW) worshipped idol's as well. This is why many Hindu's stupidly say ancient Arabia was Hindu! Harappa civilisation was not Hindu at all in any way, it had it's own belief system following no mainstream religion as we see it today. They worshipped anything and everything in such places where as Hinduism comes with a philosophy like karma and reincarnation.

 

[troodon]

Hindu God's created nothing! Throughout history their have been many forms of idolatry like the ancient Arab's, the forefathers of our Prophet(SAW) worshipped idol's as well. This is why many Hindu's stupidly say ancient Arabia was Hindu! Harappa civilisation was not Hindu at all in any way, it had it's own belief system following no mainstream religion as we see it today. They worshipped anything and everything in such places where as Hinduism comes with a philosophy like karma and reincarnation.

No God ever created anything. Humans created God and have been selling this snake oil for the gullible for thousands of years,

 

[PakLFC]

No God ever created anything. Humans created God and have been selling this snake oil for the gullible for thousands of years,

For Muslim's Allah created everything including you as well.

 

[Vega]

Hindu God's created nothing! ...

Islam is also facing severe Challenge from the Modern Scientific Archaeology

According to Islamic history:

1. Prophet Abraham was the first one who came to Mecca along with Prophet Ismael. They laid the foundation of Mecca (about 2000 years BC) and it became the most famous city of Arab while thousands of Arabs came here every year for Hajj and Mecca was situated at the Trade Route.

2. All Arabs are the descendent of Prophet Ismael and the follower of Deen-e-Ibrahimi.

3. 300 years before Prophet Muhammad, there came a person named "'Amr ibn Luḥay al-Khuzai". He was the first one who put the seeds of Polytheism in Arbas. At that time All Arabs (100% Arabs) turned polytheists, and All 100% of them forgot that they were from the progeny of Ismael and monotheists. They kept on doing pilgrimage of Kaba every year, but didn't know anymore about Ibrahim or Ismael or about their monotheistic religion.


But these claims of Islamic History have been challenged by Bible, Archaeology of Arabia and ancient history of Arabs.


Bible:

According to bible, Abraham ordered Hajar/Ismael to leave the city and they came to the desert of Beer Saba (present Israel). There appeared the well of water. Both Hajar/Ismael stayed there. Later Ismael married an Egyptian girl.
The descendants of Ismael lived in South Levant/North Arabia till Iraq. All of them were Jews. Later they mixed with the progeny of Ishaaq.
Moreover, according to bible it was Ishaaq who was chosen for the Sacrifice by God, but then the sheep appeared.

Along with bible, there are hundreds of other history books of Jews/Christians, but none of them ever mentioned of any Mecca, any Jews/Christians from Levant or other areas ever visiting Mecca for Hajj.

In fact Bible and all the history books of Jews/Christians are unaware of any Mecca, or any Deen e Ibrahimi in whole Arab.



Modern Archaeological Records of Arabia:

Arabia is one of the most richest places in the world where the Archaeological records have been found in form of inscriptions on stones and rocks and on walls of the temples. Due to the dry temperature and very low rain, most of these archaeological records were safe from any damage.

These archaeological records are unbelievably rich. There are tens of ancient cities which are north, eash and south of Mecca with thousands of inscriptions and tombs. The inscriptions are so detailed that we today know the names of almost all the Kings who ruled those cities and the names of the idols they worshipped and the wars that were fought with other cities etc.

But strangely, in all this archaeological recrods:

1. There is no mention of any Abrahamic God or Deen e Ibrahimi, or presence of Ibrahim/Ismael, or other stories of Adam/Eve/Noah etc.

2. And also there is no mention of any city named Mecca.
According to the archaeological findings, the city of Mecca was founded only about 300 years before Prophet Muhammad (while according to Muslims, Mecca was founded 2000 year BC i.e. before Christ).



History of Ancient Arabia:

Romans and Greeks sent expeditions to Arabia as they wanted to do Trade with Yemen through the trade Route along with Red Sea.

The Roman and Greek Historian wrote in details about all the cities of Arabia at that time. They mentioned all the tribes that were living in all those areas. They mentioned the temples, and the idols that were worshipped.

Strangely, not a single Historian ever mentioned the presence of any monolithic Allah, or Ibrahim, or Ismael, or Adam/Eve/Noah in whole Arab.

Also they were completely unaware of presence of any city with the name of Mecca, and completely unaware of Arabs visiting this city every year for Hajj (while according to Muslims Mecca was the most famous city due to Hajj by thousands of Arabs every year, and while it was present on the famous trade route)



Arabs at time of advent of Islam:

Strange that:

1. Arabs at time of Islam have absolutely no idea that they were the descendants of prophet Ismael. Quraish have no idea who Abraham was.


2. Arabs were also totally unaware that well of Zamzam was formed due to prophet Ismael.
According to Arabs, it was Abdul Muttalib (grandfather of Prophet Muhammad) who dug out the well of Zamzam for the first time few years before the birth of Prophet Muhammad.
All Muslim historians also accept that well of Zamzam was dug by Abdul Muttalib, but their story says that some time after Prophet Ismael, the well of Zamzam was covered with mud and hidden from the people till Abdul Muttalib rediscovered it.


=====

There are many Greek/Roman historians who were from 300 years BC to 300 years AC, who came to Arabia and recorded Arab History in their books, but none of them know about any Mecca or any deen e Ibrahimi in Arab.

Please read the detailed study here:

http://web.archive.org/web/20180105...not-have-been-built-before-the-4th-century-ad

 

[Realromeo]

lol go look up Pashupati and Indus Valley Civilization.

That's why practicing Hindus in the South care mostly only about Lord Shiva.

And Murugan.

 

[PakLFC]

[MENTION=149796]Vega[/MENTION]

Your mail has nothing to do with what I said. In Islam Allah is the creator and destroyer.

 

[Captain caveman]

In the west, hindusm is refered to as hindu mythology, just like greek mythology.

Islam is refered to as a religion, just like christianity or judaism.

Reason being the religions are based on human beings, regardless of whether they existed or not and the mythologies are based on fantastical creatures, which science knows never existed!

Obviously, science does not accept god exists, but the premise is in religion is faith not fact!