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Ahmadi Caliph tells his granddaughter to bring 4 male witnesses to prove she was raped or shut up

Giannis

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Nida-ul-Nasser, the grand-daughter of 4th <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Ahmadi?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Ahmadi</a> Caliph Mirza Tahir Ahmad, was allegedly raped by Mahmood Shah, brother-in-law of the incumbent Ahmadi Caliph Mirza Masroor Ahmad. Masroor tells her to bring 4 male witnesses or shut up. <a href="https://t.co/USIfwgBHIh">pic.twitter.com/USIfwgBHIh</a></p>— SAMRI (@SAMRIReports) <a href="https://twitter.com/SAMRIReports/status/1471037319184629760?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 15, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Should he step down? I wonder if this will lead to many young Ahmadis leaving the religion?
 
A genuine question. Isn't that the law in Pakistan? To bring 4 male eye witnesses?
 
No idea why, but I thought for some reason that the religious leader of the Ahmadi community lived in India, and so I thought the incident happened in India.

Got confused with the Bohra community, whose religious head lives in India I think.
 
No idea why, but I thought for some reason that the religious leader of the Ahmadi community lived in India, and so I thought the incident happened in India.

Got confused with the Bohra community, whose religious head lives in India I think.

Their movement started in Qadian, India... which is why they are referred to as Qadianis (the sect considers this a crude and derogatory term). They refer to themselves as Ahmedis. Mostly people of SUBCONTINENTAL origin are their adherents, you would be hard pressed to find any arabs/persians/non subcontinental folks who believe their ideology.
 
Their movement started in Qadian, India... which is why they are referred to as Qadianis (the sect considers this a crude and derogatory term). They refer to themselves as Ahmedis. Mostly people of SUBCONTINENTAL origin are their adherents, you would be hard pressed to find any arabs/persians/non subcontinental folks who believe their ideology.

It was founded in Punjab, 95% of their adherents are Punjabis with a few Africans and maybe the odd Kashmiri
 
Their old Caliph was a real sharp guy and a good speaker.

This caliph is a dud and now it looks like he is someone who is failing to tackle sexual violence.
 
Their movement started in Qadian, India... which is why they are referred to as Qadianis (the sect considers this a crude and derogatory term). They refer to themselves as Ahmedis. Mostly people of SUBCONTINENTAL origin are their adherents, you would be hard pressed to find any arabs/persians/non subcontinental folks who believe their ideology.

Yeah I knew about the movement starting from a place in India, which probably made me think that way. Come to think of it, sunni muslims are obviously the majority among Indian muslims, I have seen plenty of shias in India as well (shia posters like "Who is Hussain" quite popular in Indian railway stations on water dispensers), have seen many Dawoodi Bohra muslims as well (distinctly identifiable by their distinct topi or the type of dress used by women) but I have never come across Ahmadi muslims in India. Don't know if they have a specific attire like the Dawoodi Bohras or how to identify by their names, whereas you can somewhat (to my limited knowledge) differentiate between shia and sunni muslims using their names.
 
Why the need for 4 male witnesses then? Does the young girl not have any family who could take it to the police? I think UK courts would take a pretty dim view of the 4 witnesses angle.

I dont know much about the case, I am trying to read up on it but it sounds to me like it all happened in the UK and therefore, should be handled according to the laws of the UK.
 
Yeah I knew about the movement starting from a place in India, which probably made me think that way. Come to think of it, sunni muslims are obviously the majority among Indian muslims, I have seen plenty of shias in India as well (shia posters like "Who is Hussain" quite popular in Indian railway stations on water dispensers), have seen many Dawoodi Bohra muslims as well (distinctly identifiable by their distinct topi or the type of dress used by women) but I have never come across Ahmadi muslims in India. Don't know if they have a specific attire like the Dawoodi Bohras or how to identify by their names, whereas you can somewhat (to my limited knowledge) differentiate between shia and sunni muslims using their names.

They are mostly Punjabis and dont have a traditional dress/getup although I have seen quite a few of them wear Kashmiri style topis, which is probably due to most of htem being the UK in close contact with other expat Kashmiris there. There other connection to Kashmir is that they believe Jesus migrated to Kashmir and died there and they even have a mausoleum for him there.
 
I dont know much about the case, I am trying to read up on it but it sounds to me like it all happened in the UK and therefore, should be handled according to the laws of the UK.

Well this is the first I'm hearing about it, but to think that a man could try to fudge justice for his own granddaughter by dodging behind some archaic law is truly despicable. And yet this man is supposed to be some sort of caliph? :facepalm:
 
Well this is the first I'm hearing about it, but to think that a man could try to fudge justice for his own granddaughter by dodging behind some archaic law is truly despicable. And yet this man is supposed to be some sort of caliph? :facepalm:

It sounds more sinister than that since it implicates multiple close male family members of their caliph.
 
Well this is the first I'm hearing about it, but to think that a man could try to fudge justice for his own granddaughter by dodging behind some archaic law is truly despicable. And yet this man is supposed to be some sort of caliph? :facepalm:

The caliph is not just a man but they believe him to be divinely ordained. When he dies its quite likely that one of those men that are implicated could be the next 'divinely ordained'.

Taking action could bring this whole house of cards down.
 
Well this is the first I'm hearing about it, but to think that a man could try to fudge justice for his own granddaughter by dodging behind some archaic law is truly despicable. And yet this man is supposed to be some sort of caliph? :facepalm:

that isnt his grand daughter.

Her Grand father was Mirza Tahir Ahmad.

This head is Mirza Masroor Ahmad
 
If you’re listening to someone with the title “Caliph” you are living in the wrong century.
 
Ahmadi “caliph” what is this 1500 AD?
well their "prophet" as they claim died in early 1900 and they have a line of succession and caliphate established for his followers. Right now the caliph is his great grandson, I think. He is holy blood for them.
 
then again the Catholics still have their Pope, dont they? So this is not entirely unprecedented or out of the ordinary.

Sunnis in general, though, do not believe they need a spiritual leader because our philosophy is we have everything we need in terms of faith based direction. A caliph historically was a governor of a Muslim state. Ahmedis do not have a state, so their caliph is more of a spiritual leader ala the Pope.
 
Ahmadi “caliph” what is this 1500 AD?

Why are you mocking their religion? I thought Indians weren't bigoted towards Ahmadis like they claimed to be.

Caliph is just a title like how Hindus have Yogis and Swamis. Btw the last Muslim Caliphate existed in the 1920s and the Ottoman caliphate was far more modern than India at the same time.
 
This thread is not to discuss the Ahmediya faith.

Keep discussion focussed on the actual issue.
 
Why are you mocking their religion? I thought Indians weren't bigoted towards Ahmadis like they claimed to be.

Caliph is just a title like how Hindus have Yogis and Swamis. Btw the last Muslim Caliphate existed in the 1920s and the Ottoman caliphate was far more modern than India at the same time.

Huh? Where did I make fun of their religion?

I just found calling someone caliph ridiculous. There was no religious context. If I find addressing someone as “sarkar” or “jahapanah” ridiculous, am I mocking their religion?

Anyways I didn’t know caliph equated to just a title like yogi, Swami, moulvi, pir, baba etc.

Looks like everything begins and ends with religion for you lol. I didn’t even think in that angle.
 
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There´s being done a lot of propaganda on social media about this leaked audio and a lot of willful mis-translations too have been provided on social media platforms to paint a false picture about the whole affair. Firstly, before I proceed, I must state two things....

1. As per the instructions above, and the general rules of the forum, I shall refrain from engaging in the rights and wrongs of the Ahmadiyya beliefs themselves and will solely focus on the case itself.

2. Ahmadis have in general been issued instructions from the centre to refrain from commenting too much about the case itself, since it´s being investigated by the UK police, and also from making allegations against the character of Ms. Nida or about her mental health, and I too shall refrain from that. If indeed she has been wronged, then I pray that she´s provided justice through one way or the other: by the Almighty, if not by the worldly authorities. However, it must be told here that she hasn´t accused one single individual of raping her but around three to four - differently, in different places, on different occasions, over different time phases, and neither in a gang-rape type of situation - and amongst the people accused by her is her own father who is supposed to have sexually abused her from the age of under 10, I believe. Now, the divorce between her parents took place around in 2005, she must be around 20 at that time. Interestingly, someone who claims to be knowing Ms. Nida very closely, but has refused to disclose her identity, has written on a social media platform that she herself chose to stay with her father after the divorce, even refusing to listen to the current Caliph that she should rather stay with her mother. Now, this does NOT establish anyone´s innocence, and neither do I want to claim anything based on this, but I just thought of adding this to the picture whilst we look at it from different angles.

However, let me still make one thing clear first. The Caliph did NOT tell her to "Shut up", as is being alleged. As one can listen in the leaked audio, the Caliph, based on the lack of evidences provided, only "advises" her against pursuing the case because she won´t be able to establish anything, and this will only lead to rumours, mud-slinging, and "commentary" in the public about it - again, due to the lack of sufficient evidences. Still though, he tells her that there´s a forum to raise this issue and that social media isn´t that forum. Now, what is that "forum"? Interestingly, this audio has been leaked as recently as last month, and the case lies with the UK police since August, four months prior to that, and the issue is thus under investigation. Also, there´s not a single instance of the Caliph telling her not to approach the police. Besides all this, the leaked audio itself easily leads to the conclusion that the Caliph did indeed believe and trust her initially, as one can gather from Ms. Nida´s own words, but probably developed trust issues when the list of allegations kept getting longer or when the inconsistencies began to become apparent in her allegations with time. This, however, is my own personal take on the issue.

As for the bit about four witnesses, that too needs to be understood properly. According to the Ahmadiyya view, four witnesses are NOT required when a rape has happened as recently when a medical check-up or circumstantial evidence(s) can establish the crime of the culprit. However, if a woman claims about having been raped somewhere in the past, where a medical check-up or other circumstantial evidences cannot be provided anymore, then four witnesses are required to prove that she was raped and that the sexual intercourse was not a consensual one. Here´re two parts of a video in which the fourth Caliph, the previous one, explains exactly the same points (and it´s in light of these principles that the current Caliph asking for four witnesses is to be seen in).....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT2ZBTYJXTU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y60iCLLaaV4

However, witnesses less than four can lead to the judge handing out a punishment to the culprit other than the maximum punishment as prescribed in Islamic holy writings. This is what I'm adding here personally, though, based on what I've read in a couple of articles as written by a few people from the Ahmadiyya Community, and isn't being discussed in the videos above, as they only discuss the aspect of the establishing of the crime of rape. However, above all, the Ahmadiyya Community does not run the government of any country of the world and is neither in power anywhere. We fully believe in and practice the upholding of the law of the land. At the internal level, though, the most that the Community can do is to punish people by expelling them from it - if it be the need. Ms. Nida has made allegations of a very serious nature that she hasn't been able to prove, recorded a phone call of the Head of the Community, leaked the audio and made the Community a target of its opponents, taken the matter to social media to further damage the Community. Besides this, as is clear from the audio itself, Ms. Nida insults and bullies the Caliph massively during the phone call and, despite all this, his answer to her throughout seems to be alongside the lines of, "Okay, alright", and behaves in a very calm manner. Despite all that she has done, the Caliph has been most lenient on her and she has NOT been expelled from the community.

Furthermore, only yesterday, Ms. Nida´s own brother, Mirza Usman Ahmad, has issued a statement in which, by carefully not opposing his sister or saying anything against her, has outlined the same point, which being how supportive the Caliph had been of her and how he provided her with every possible support whilst she shared with him the trauma of the alleged sexual abuse that she had been through, even trying to sort out the internal differences between her and her brother so that she could be provided with the support that she required. According to him, the Ahmadiyya Community has been most cooperative of the UK police and even informed the police straight away as "Ms. Nida´s allegations escalated and grew more grave." If it is as is being alleged by the opponents, should the Caliph have not expelled her right away for even bringing the matter to the attention of the police, if this was something which he didn´t approve of and asked her to refrain from? Why did the Community inform the police of the latest developments with regards to her allegations escalating?

Lastly, I must add that, although I´m an Ahmadi, I do not represent the Community in any official capacity, and my post should be seen in the same light. I just thought of bumping the thread to present the other side of the picture because, as I see, no Ahmadi had so far commented in the thread, and there must be very few present on the forum anyway. It´s up to people to make their call on this. I repeat that I pray that Ms. Nida gets justice, from the One above us all, if not from the worldly authorities, if indeed she has been on the receiving end of any kind of sexual abuse or rape.
 
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Islamic suggestive laws:

If a woman accuses a man of rape, they needs to bear witness in the name of Allah 4 times that they are truthful

then the man is asked the same. If both the man and the woman bear witness in the name of Allah 4 times that they are truthful

then the woman needs to produce undeniable evidence of rape occurring and/or 4 witnesses. If the woman cannot bring 4 witnesses then she has no bear in Islamic law.

Reading up on this case the Ahmadi Caliph followed the Islamic suggestive laws to the letter.

The above post mentions her brother's letter. I found the letter on social media. The Brother says the Ahmadi Caliph asked that the decision on going to the police is up to the woman herself .

Under the british law, I think another group or individual cannot go to the police , only the claimant can. The Claimant went to police in July 2021, according to her brother with no pushback from anyone .

Also I found out something interesting. She has only filed the case against her father , she has not filed a case against the other 2 she has accused in Pakistan.
 
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