Algerian woman denied French citizenship over handshake

[MenInG]

A French appeals court has upheld a ruling denying an Algerian woman citizenship after she refused to shake the hand of a senior official.

The woman, who has not been named, said her "religious beliefs" prevented her from shaking the hand of the male official in the citizenship ceremony.

A government ruling said it showed she was "not assimilated into the French community" and denied her citizenship.

She appealed, but France's highest administrative court upheld the ruling.

The Algerian woman has been married to a French man since 2010.

At her 2016 citizenship ceremony in the south-eastern Isère region, around Grenoble, she refused to shake hands with the presiding senior official or a local politician.

In Islamic teaching, handshakes between unrelated men and women are usually prohibited.

The government then denied her naturalisation, saying she was "not assimilated" for avoiding the symbolic ritual.

This is one of the reasons the state can deny citizenship to the spouse of a national under the country's civil code.

The Algerian woman called the decision an "abuse of power", but the Council of State has upheld the ruling.

France's court of last appeal said the government has not "improperly applied" the law.

In 2016, a Swiss regional authority ruled that two Muslim pupils at a Swiss school had to shake hands with their female teacher, or face a fine.

Their previous exemption from the tradition had caused outrage in the country.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43839655

 

[Varun]

France is such an Islamophobic country that even the courts take the side of anti-Islam elements in society.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Got to respect her for her conviction to her beliefs, even if they are silly. In the end the decision seems to be the right one, she would probably be more suited to living in Algeria anyway.

 

[UP]

People should not migrate to other countries if they can’t obey or respect their culture/laws. It creates a lot of conflict/resentment among general public.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

If she cant shake a hand, why is she moving to a country which has finds handshaking the norm?

 

[Madplayer]

Lol why is shaking hands so important that even courts have upheld it? They should be more interested in seeing whether she is willing to pay taxes and stay away from committing crimes.
Isnt it the freedom of a woman who she allows to touch her anyway? I wonder how they reconcile their bias with these freedoms to allow such discrimination.

 

[AamchiMumbaikar]

Lol why is shaking hands so important that even courts have upheld it? They should be more interested in seeing whether she is willing to pay taxes and stay away from committing crimes.
Isnt it the freedom of a woman who she allows to touch her anyway? I wonder how they reconcile their bias with these freedoms to allow such discrimination.

More than taxes & behavior, west is bothered about granting citizenship to people who have strong religious affiliations (mostly from Islamic background) because of terrorist incidents in the past few years across Europe. I am sure if it was a Buddhist from Thailand who instead of shaking had done a 'namaskar' they wouldn't have bothered.

 

[Robert]

France is such an Islamophobic country that even the courts take the side of anti-Islam elements in society.

A French citizen must be French first, then religious. Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité above all.

 

[LegCutter]

Kudos to her for upholding her beliefs.

Still a shame though. It's a result of widespread resentment where the courts and communities are not even bothering to hide their lack of respect for Islamic traditions.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Lol why is shaking hands so important that even courts have upheld it? They should be more interested in seeing whether she is willing to pay taxes and stay away from committing crimes.
Isnt it the freedom of a woman who she allows to touch her anyway? I wonder how they reconcile their bias with these freedoms to allow such discrimination.

France is a country which is becoming more militant in it's attempt to stamp out religion so they want all their citizens to follow this belief. From our point of view this might seem a bit extreme, but it's their country at the end of the day. I don't know if they are as judicious against other religions, especially Christianity, but perhaps someone can enlighten us.

 

[Pakistanian]

A French citizen must be French first, then religious. Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité above all.

That wasn't the case when they colonized Algeria and slaughtered hundreds of thousands of them.

 

[Madplayer]

A French citizen must be French first, then religious. Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité above all.

Liberty is the first one you mentioned. Where is the liberty of this woman in choosing who she allows to touch her?

 

[Robert]

Liberty is the first one you mentioned. Where is the liberty of this woman in choosing who she allows to touch her?

As a liberal I value indiviual freedom over state power. But a local set of values must be agreed upon.

In this case I imagine that the official thought that the woman was accepting religious subjugation of liberty rather than treat him as an equal and a brother by shaking his hand.

 

[Madplayer]

As a liberal I value indiviual freedom over state power. But a local set of values must be agreed upon.

In this case I imagine that the official thought that the woman was accepting religious subjugation of liberty rather than treat him as an equal and a brother by shaking his hand.

The local set of values should be agreed upon only if they are absolutely necessary to maintain order and peace. I'm sure touching each other won't disrupt order? Being nice, talking politely, paying taxes, helping the community etc. these are the kind of values which must be emphasised upon rather than handshaking people. Just my opinion.

Secondly, So you are saying the officer "thought" it. Doesnt look like something which should hold liberty of a woman hostage now does it? He thought the woman was accepting religious subjugation. What if the woman thinks her freedom and right to practice her religion is being infringed upon and she isnt being treated like an equal? It goes both ways, right?

 

[WildSwing]

France is a country which is becoming more militant in it's attempt to stamp out religion so they want all their citizens to follow this belief. From our point of view this might seem a bit extreme, but it's their country at the end of the day. I don't know if they are as judicious against other religions, especially Christianity, but perhaps someone can enlighten us.

France is just living up to the "western" standards

 

[Robert]

The local set of values should be agreed upon only if they are absolutely necessary to maintain order and peace. I'm sure touching each other won't disrupt order? Being nice, talking politely, paying taxes, helping the community etc. these are the kind of values which must be emphasised upon rather than handshaking people. Just my opinion.

Secondly, So you are saying the officer "thought" it. Doesnt look like something which should hold liberty of a woman hostage now does it? He thought the woman was accepting religious subjugation. What if the woman thinks her freedom and right to practice her religion is being infringed upon and she isnt being treated like an equal? It goes both ways, right?

Then she goes to another country. Her choice.

 

[Pakistanian]

Then she goes to another country. Her choice.

They came to her country, the sense of entitlement Europeans have despite colonialism is absolutely appalling.

 

[IAJ]

If she cant shake a hand, why is she moving to a country which has finds handshaking the norm?

What? Are you even serious? These people talk about «western values» where religious freedom stands quite high so why not respect here religion in this case?

The World is a big global village now and these guys needs to respect other norms as well. In many countries they place their hand at the heart and bow their head. That is also respect, so if they go to a new country where handshakes are the norm they should be respected. You can’t force people to what they are not comfortable with.

Sick and tired og these so called western values. Many major wars today are led by these western countries today. They should be the last one to teach others these manners.

 

[CricketCartoons]

What? Are you even serious? These people talk about «western values» where religious freedom stands quite high so why not respect here religion in this case?

The World is a big global village now and these guys needs to respect other norms as well. In many countries they place their hand at the heart and bow their head. That is also respect, so if they go to a new country where handshakes are the norm they should be respected. You can’t force people to what they are not comfortable with.

Sick and tired og these so called western values. Many major wars today are led by these western countries today. They should be the last one to teach others these manners.

Shaking hands with the opposite gender is not recommended because it can lead to temptation, so the issue is temptation not shaking hands.

 

[Yossarian]

Would it have been permissable (both from her religious beliefs point of view, as well as the senior offcial / local politician) if she had worn a glove?

Handshakes have been an important part of human civilization for many centuries, the first thing we do as human beings, when we meet another human being is to. ... If you are a gentleman, you will remove your gloves, however ladies may keep the gloves on as etiquette dictates

https://www.theroyalbutler.co.uk/single-post/2016/02/.../The-Ritual-Of-A-Handshake

If so, then problem solved. Everyone goes away happy.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

What? Are you even serious? These people talk about «western values» where religious freedom stands quite high so why not respect here religion in this case?

The World is a big global village now and these guys needs to respect other norms as well. In many countries they place their hand at the heart and bow their head. That is also respect, so if they go to a new country where handshakes are the norm they should be respected. You can’t force people to what they are not comfortable with.

Sick and tired og these so called western values. Many major wars today are led by these western countries today. They should be the last one to teach others these manners.

If you want to move to Pakistan and insist on wearing skirts which is seen as immodest in our society, then stay where you are.

If people have religious issues, they should move to a place where they can practice their religious sentiments freely.

I find it laughable people want to move to Western countries yet insist on following their beliefs.

I am sorry but if u have issues with a handshake, you can inside your own hut for all I care.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

Shaking hands with the opposite gender is not recommended because it can lead to temptation, so the issue is temptation not shaking hands.

Not everyone is suffering from Kluver Bucy syndrome.

Its possible to consider a handshake as a ritual instead of sexual euphoria.

 

[Gilly]

The French might be a little jumpy after the slaughter of their countrymen for simply drawing a cartoon.

 

[IAJ]

If you want to move to Pakistan and insist on wearing skirts which is seen as immodest in our society, then stay where you are.

If people have religious issues, they should move to a place where they can practice their religious sentiments freely.

I find it laughable people want to move to Western countries yet insist on following their beliefs.

I am sorry but if u have issues with a handshake, you can inside your own hut for all I care.

I am a bit confused so let’s solve my confusion first, are you being sarcastic here or is this for real?

 

[Dr_Bassim]

I am a bit confused so let’s solve my confusion first, are you being sarcastic here or is this for real?

Let me spell it out for you.

I dont quite agree that a citizenship should be denied on the basis of a handshake, but i dont see why someone will still refuse to shake hands (if thats all it took to be offered one), still want to go to a place where it is denied on such flimsy grounds, (their country and rules )and then muster up support by playing the beliefs card (my beliefs are important).

If you feel the French are stupid for denying it on such grounds, the women is even more stupid for refusing to shake hands for 3 seconds and getting her reward.

And we have people who support her actions.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Every country has its customs and cultures. Countries are now being strict in granting citizenships to people who they think wont fit into that culture. Europe is specially being very careful about this. US was since 9/11. UK and Canada may be the only exceptions now.

At the end of the day its their country they have made it into what it is today. They have the right to decide the laws.

 

[IAJ]

Let me spell it out for you.

I dont quite agree that a citizenship should be denied on the basis of a handshake, but i dont see why someone will still refuse to shake hands (if thats all it took to be offered one), still want to go to a place where it is denied on such flimsy grounds, (their country and rules )and then muster up support by playing the beliefs card (my beliefs are important).

If you feel the French are stupid for denying it on such grounds, the women is even more stupid for refusing to shake hands for 3 seconds and getting her reward.

And we have people who support her actions.

This is stupidity. The lady should be saluted for following her religion. She has done absolutely nothing wrong, standing firmly on her principles. I am glad we still have people like her.

Yes these countries have their rules, but we are allowed to critisize their rules, and it’s quite apparant why they do that. But luckily we still have a few countries in Europe who respect people’s religion.

 

[CricketCartoons]

This is stupidity. The lady should be saluted for following her religion. She has done absolutely nothing wrong, standing firmly on her principles. I am glad we still have people like her.

Yes these countries have their rules, but we are allowed to critisize their rules, and it’s quite apparant why they do that. But luckily we still have a few countries in Europe who respect people’s religion.

If you salute the lady for standing for her principles, should you not salute France for standing up for its principles?

 

[Gilly]

This is stupidity. The lady should be saluted for following her religion. She has done absolutely nothing wrong, standing firmly on her principles. I am glad we still have people like her.

Yes these countries have their rules, but we are allowed to critisize their rules, and it’s quite apparant why they do that. But luckily we still have a few countries in Europe who respect people’s religion.

Religion have their rules and we are allowed to criticize those rules, I'm sure you feel that is right.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

If you want to move to Pakistan and insist on wearing skirts which is seen as immodest in our society, then stay where you are.

If people have religious issues, they should move to a place where they can practice their religious sentiments freely.

I find it laughable people want to move to Western countries yet insist on following their beliefs.

I am sorry but if u have issues with a handshake, you can inside your own hut for all I care.

While I broadly agree that this woman would be better staying in Algeria as I said in my first reply, the bolded text I have a question. Do you like me, also believe this should apply to Jews, Hindus and Sikhs who insist on changing local architecture to resemble Israel or Mumbai? You may have seen my previous threads on Southall and Wembley, but I don't recall you commenting there, but it basically deals with this same issue.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The French might be a little jumpy after the slaughter of their countrymen for simply drawing a cartoon.

The French can understandably be jumpy, but their judges should probably be making professional and sober decisions rather than being jumpy. Refusing to shake a hand shouldn't lead a judge to assume the woman might slaughter a cartoonist.

 

[Madplayer]

If you want to move to Pakistan and insist on wearing skirts which is seen as immodest in our society, then stay where you are.

If people have religious issues, they should move to a place where they can practice their religious sentiments freely.

I find it laughable people want to move to Western countries yet insist on following their beliefs.

I am sorry but if u have issues with a handshake, you can inside your own hut for all I care.

People mostly move to developed nations for better jobs and a comfortable life. Thats their reason. Not because they are impressed by their customs and all. The west has hardly anything to offer in terms of morality anyway. For them anything goes and you have complete freedom unless you are a muslim, then you have shake hands with the opposite gender. Drinking wine and alcohol is part of the western culture, i wonder when these champions of liberty and freedom will make it a criteria to drink a peg before granting citizenships because hey "it's local custom".

 

[Madplayer]

Then she goes to another country. Her choice.

Her husband is from France.
And do you agree that the French are being hypocritical here and probably biased against a muslim? Perhaps this decision is even caused by inherent anger towards muslims?

 

[Gilly]

The French can understandably be jumpy, but their judges should probably be making professional and sober decisions rather than being jumpy. Refusing to shake a hand shouldn't lead a judge to assume the woman might slaughter a cartoonist.

I think it was more about this woman wrongly reading the situation and chose to insult the officials by refusing to shake their hand. At no cost to her a simple hand shake would have avoided this whole incident.

We had a similar situation in Australia where a muslim woman refused to stand for a judge in court, she put her religion above the laws of the land.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Her husband is from France.
And do you agree that the French are being hypocritical here and probably biased against a muslim? Perhaps this decision is even caused by inherent anger towards muslims?

Very clever of the french. they could have denied citizenship right away, but instead held a citizenship ceremony for her and then found the excuse to deny citizenship.

 

[Madplayer]

Very clever of the french. they could have denied citizenship right away, but instead held a citizenship ceremony for her and then found the excuse to deny citizenship.

The matter reached a citizenship ceremony only because she must have complied with all the laws and regulations. Thats fine. I am talking about their intolerance towards a muslim woman choosing who she allows to touch her. It isnt far fetched to think that if it was a Buddhist monk or someone from another religion, the same decision would not have been taken i.e. to reject citizenship at the 11th hour.

 

[Gilly]

The matter reached a citizenship ceremony only because she must have complied with all the laws and regulations. Thats fine. I am talking about their intolerance towards a muslim woman choosing who she allows to touch her. It isnt far fetched to think that if it was a Buddhist monk or someone from another religion, the same decision would not have been taken i.e. to reject citizenship at the 11th hour.

Sounds about right, the only thing you missed was that it was Trump who ordered the French to do this.

 

[Varun]

The matter reached a citizenship ceremony only because she must have complied with all the laws and regulations. Thats fine. I am talking about their intolerance towards a muslim woman choosing who she allows to touch her. It isnt far fetched to think that if it was a Buddhist monk or someone from another religion, the same decision would not have been taken i.e. to reject citizenship at the 11th hour.

If your allegation is that France is an Islamophobic country, then you are completely correct.

However, it is also fair to say that the Algerian woman in question had more to gain by entering France, and France has nothing to lose by denying her immigration - so she should have grit her teeth...and....wait for it....done the dastardly act of shaking hands with another human being!

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I think it was more about this woman wrongly reading the situation and chose to insult the officials by refusing to shake their hand. At no cost to her a simple hand shake would have avoided this whole incident.

We had a similar situation in Australia where a muslim woman refused to stand for a judge in court, she put her religion above the laws of the land.

That's fine, and the courts in Australia will have rightly sanctioned with whatever the appropriate punishment was for not following court protocol. But I don't think the Algerian woman intended to insult the officials by not shaking hands, she was just following her religious belief. Neither should it be assumed she wanted to slaughter a cartoonist because of this, that was the part of your post I had issue with.

 

[CricketCartoons]

The matter reached a citizenship ceremony only because she must have complied with all the laws and regulations. Thats fine. I am talking about their intolerance towards a muslim woman choosing who she allows to touch her. It isnt far fetched to think that if it was a Buddhist monk or someone from another religion, the same decision would not have been taken i.e. to reject citizenship at the 11th hour.

Can you point to a similar incident where they allowed someone from another religion in despite refusing to shake hands?

I don't see any issue here. citizenship is a privilege, and many rights apply only for citizens not aliens. Good for her that she got saved from being a citizen of a country where she would be expected to compromise.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

People mostly move to developed nations for better jobs and a comfortable life. Thats their reason. Not because they are impressed by their customs and all. The west has hardly anything to offer in terms of morality anyway. For them anything goes and you have complete freedom unless you are a muslim, then you have shake hands with the opposite gender. Drinking wine and alcohol is part of the western culture, i wonder when these champions of liberty and freedom will make it a criteria to drink a peg before granting citizenships because hey "it's local custom".

As one of our most esteemed Indian posters always says: "their country, their laws". Who knows, drinking a peg could be a clever way to avoid immigration from certain countries, but being teetotal can be an advantage in a lot of professions so I don't think that will happen. I think KKWC mentioned that Muslim footballers are generally appreciated by British managers because their lifestyle works well in professional sport.

 

[Madplayer]

If your allegation is that France is an Islamophobic country, then you are completely correct.

However, it is also fair to say that the Algerian woman in question had more to gain by entering France, and France has nothing to lose by denying her immigration - so she should have grit her teeth...and....wait for it....done the dastardly act of shaking hands with another human being!

Sounds bad when you put it that way, isnt it? Perhaps thats why you are putting it that way.

Now lets get back to the real issue here. The issue of rights and freedoms and of choice of an individual which.....wait for it.... French republic claims to champion.

 

[Gilly]

That's fine, and the courts in Australia will have rightly sanctioned with whatever the appropriate punishment was for not following court protocol. But I don't think the Algerian woman intended to insult the officials by not shaking hands, she was just following her religious belief. Neither should it be assumed she wanted to slaughter a cartoonist because of this, that was the part of your post I had issue with.

She insulted their culture, they don't want people like that to be accepted as citizens. She demands respect for her religion and they demand respect for their culture.

We don't exactly know how far her extremism extends, she certainly has no regard for French culture.

 

[Madplayer]

Can you point to a similar incident where they allowed someone from another religion in despite refusing to shake hands?

I don't see any issue here. citizenship is a privilege, and many rights apply only for citizens not aliens. Good for her that she got saved from being a citizen of a country where she would be expected to compromise.

No i cannot point out such incidents.

The issue here is hardly of whether France has the right to do it. They certainly can reject anybody. But if they do it on these flimsy grounds, they simply prove that they are hypocrates.

 

[Madplayer]

As one of our most esteemed Indian posters always says: "their country, their laws". Who knows, drinking a peg could be a clever way to avoid immigration from certain countries, but being teetotal can be an advantage in a lot of professions so I don't think that will happen. I think KKWC mentioned that Muslim footballers are generally appreciated by British managers because their lifestyle works well in professional sport.

This is true. Its their country and their rules. Nobody can stop them. The question is whether they are upholding the values which they claim to champion. It certainly doesnt seem so.

 

[CricketCartoons]

No i cannot point out such incidents.

The issue here is hardly of whether France has the right to do it. They certainly can reject anybody. But if they do it on these flimsy grounds, they simply prove that they are hypocrates.

There is a point if rights are denied to french citizen. But she being an alien does not enjoy the same rights. Those who show commitment and respect to the french way of life deserve all the rights. Those who dont want to accept the french way, don't deserve these rights. There is no hypocrisy here.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

While I broadly agree that this woman would be better staying in Algeria as I said in my first reply, the bolded text I have a question. Do you like me, also believe this should apply to Jews, Hindus and Sikhs who insist on changing local architecture to resemble Israel or Mumbai? You may have seen my previous threads on Southall and Wembley, but I don't recall you commenting there, but it basically deals with this same issue.

It should apply to everywhere and i strongly condemn the establishment of Hindu Temples in Dubai because of Indian influence (rather i would if i had Emirati citizenship).

This is basically common sense.

Dont force your culture on anyone and respect other people’s cultures if you want to gain entrance to their country.

 

[cricketjoshila]

This is true. Its their country and their rules. Nobody can stop them. The question is whether they are upholding the values which they claim to champion. It certainly doesnt seem so.

If the majority of the french think its right then its right. You know numbers game and all.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

People mostly move to developed nations for better jobs and a comfortable life. Thats their reason. Not because they are impressed by their customs and all. The west has hardly anything to offer in terms of morality anyway. For them anything goes and you have complete freedom unless you are a muslim, then you have shake hands with the opposite gender. Drinking wine and alcohol is part of the western culture, i wonder when these champions of liberty and freedom will make it a criteria to drink a peg before granting citizenships because hey "it's local custom".

And if they say you have to take a swig before being granted citizenship, then thats their prerogative.

You cant refuse to take a swig and then wonder why you are denied.

I think you dont realize your own hypocrisy in the opening statement. You want to move to their country for better life and a better job but you want to follow your methods? How does that even begin to be a logical thought.

If you start living in my home tomorrow and I enforce a rule that you must take off your boots before entering and you see dust in my house, will you refuse to take off your shoes and still feel bruised that I refuse to entertain you inside?

 

[Madplayer]

There is a point if rights are denied to french citizen. But she being an alien does not enjoy the same rights. Those who show commitment and respect to the french way of life deserve all the rights. Those who dont want to accept the french way, don't deserve these rights. There is no hypocrisy here.

Okay if after shaking hands with this man and getting the citizenship, she decided to not shake hands anywhere anytime with any french man except her family members for the rest of her life, it would be okay and she would deserve that freedom because she earned it?
Secondly there are a lot of things which are considered "the French way of living". I am sure even the French people living in France would not be following them all. I think it is basic freedom to allow an individual to pick the things which he/she wants to do unless ots a matter of life and death. Can't expect people to follow every single way of what is considered traditional, it would be unfair.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

If your allegation is that France is an Islamophobic country, then you are completely correct.

However, it is also fair to say that the Algerian woman in question had more to gain by entering France, and France has nothing to lose by denying her immigration - so she should have grit her teeth...and....wait for it....done the dastardly act of shaking hands with another human being!

Well when you put it that way....

It does seem like she played to the crowd more than actually seriously wanting a citizenship.

If you offered me a swig to take Finnish citizenship, I probably wouldnt start pacing about indignantly and probably take whats on offer, but hey thats just me.

 

[Varun]

Sounds bad when you put it that way, isnt it? Perhaps thats why you are putting it that way.

Now lets get back to the real issue here. The issue of rights and freedoms and of choice of an individual which.....wait for it.... French republic claims to champion.

Lot of slip between the cup and the lip when a country claims to be something but does another. Be it France, India or Tuvalu.

 

[Varun]

Well when you put it that way....

It does seem like she played to the crowd more than actually seriously wanting a citizenship.

If you offered me a swig to take Finnish citizenship, I probably wouldnt start pacing about indignantly and probably take whats on offer, but hey thats just me.

Agreed, it's all naatak and wouldn't have happened in the pre-Internet age. In fact, I can completely understand dietary restrictions like alcohol and pork consumption, etc. But this...

 

[CricketCartoons]

Okay if after shaking hands with this man and getting the citizenship, she decided to not shake hands anywhere anytime with any french man except her family members for the rest of her life, it would be okay and she would deserve that freedom because she earned it?
Secondly there are a lot of things which are considered "the French way of living". I am sure even the French people living in France would not be following them all. I think it is basic freedom to allow an individual to pick the things which he/she wants to do unless ots a matter of life and death. Can't expect people to follow every single way of what is considered traditional, it would be unfair.

Her refusal to touch a person who is welcoming her at citizenship ceremony and extending his hand to her shows she doesnt have basic courtesy and respect for the country. True, she could have cheated her way inside, that remains another problem. She should be happy that now she can live in a country where she can preserve the purity of her hand.

 

[Madplayer]

And if they say you have to take a swig before being granted citizenship, then thats their prerogative.

You cant refuse to take a swig and then wonder why you are denied.

I think you dont realize your own hypocrisy in the opening statement. You want to move to their country for better life and a better job but you want to follow your methods? How does that even begin to be a logical thought.

It is logical because its a liberal country. I should be allowed to do whatever i want unless i am harming somebody or not paying taxes. Otherwise they are hypocrites.

If you start living in my home tomorrow and I enforce a rule that you must take off your boots before entering and you see dust in my house, will you refuse to take off your shoes and still feel bruised that I refuse to entertain you inside?

I dont think you understand the essence of what i am saying. Its not whether you can make that rule, its your house and you can make the rules. Its whether you should make it after writing on your door that there will be liberty for those who live in your house to live the way they want.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

Okay if after shaking hands with this man and getting the citizenship, she decided to not shake hands anywhere anytime with any french man except her family members for the rest of her life, it would be okay and she would deserve that freedom because she earned it?
Secondly there are a lot of things which are considered "the French way of living". I am sure even the French people living in France would not be following them all. I think it is basic freedom to allow an individual to pick the things which he/she wants to do unless ots a matter of life and death. Can't expect people to follow every single way of what is considered traditional, it would be unfair.

Yes, thats for people who already are born there and dont need the privilege of applying for citizenship.

But if I enter as an immigrant, surely they are certain protocols (no matter how petty and stupid and non applicable to already existing citizens) that might be asked by authorities.

Remember, you are not asking for a right, its a privilege and you must respect whatever is going on.

If I enter Seattle airport tomorrow, and the visa officer tells me to strip naked even though i have a valid visa because he is doubting me, I cant tell the visa official that it interferes with my beliefs of non nudity and he has to grant me exception.

Utter nonsense.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

It is logical because its a liberal country. I should be allowed to do whatever i want unless i am harming somebody or not paying taxes. Otherwise they are hypocrites.



I dont think you understand the essence of what i am saying. Its not whether you can make that rule, its your house and you can make the rules. Its whether you should make it after writing on your door that there will be liberty for those who live in your house to live the way they want.

All liberty comes with terms and conditions.

If i write there is liberty to do as they please inside my house, it doesnt mean i cant throw you out if you insist on playing loud music at 2 am.

Per se it wasnt in the rules and you had the liberty to do what you wanted, but if interfered with my house rules, I can still keep you out.

At the end of the day, she stuck to the choice of not shaking the hand. Now what is her peeve? She upheld Islam and great for her. There is no rule the French have to clap for her as well.

 

[Madplayer]

Her refusal to touch a person who is welcoming her at citizenship ceremony and extending his hand to her shows she doesnt have basic courtesy and respect for the country.

Or its the country's officials who had no problems with granting her a citizenship (they were giving it to her) but act like hypocrites opposing their own values at the 11th hour just because she decided to exercise her right to freedom.

True, she could have cheated her way inside, that remains another problem. She should be happy that now she can live in a country where she can preserve the purity of her hand.

Why should she be happy? Her husband is from France. She has been parted from him.

 

[cricketjoshila]

It is logical because its a liberal country. I should be allowed to do whatever i want unless i am harming somebody or not paying taxes. Otherwise they are hypocrites.



I dont think you understand the essence of what i am saying. Its not whether you can make that rule, its your house and you can make the rules. Its whether you should make it after writing on your door that there will be liberty for those who live in your house to live the way they want.

They have the liberty to right whatsoever on their door. Its their door and its their interpretation.

How many muslim countries allow liberty to foreigners in their country?

 

[Sidilicious]

What? Are you even serious? These people talk about «western values» where religious freedom stands quite high so why not respect here religion in this case?

The World is a big global village now and these guys needs to respect other norms as well. In many countries they place their hand at the heart and bow their head. That is also respect, so if they go to a new country where handshakes are the norm they should be respected. You can’t force people to what they are not comfortable with.

Sick and tired og these so called western values. Many major wars today are led by these western countries today. They should be the last one to teach others these manners.

Then why do conservative and religious countries not allow liberals to act and do as they like. Since we have to respect others cultures, why can I need to not eat outside during the day during Ramadan in Saudi?

 

[Gilly]

Why should she be happy? Her husband is from France. She has been parted from him.

In other words she put her religion before her husband and citizenship of France. That was her choice.

 

[Madplayer]

All liberty comes with terms and conditions.

If i write there is liberty to do as they please inside my house, it doesnt mean i cant throw you out if you insist on playing loud music at 2 am.

Per se it wasnt in the rules and you had the liberty to do what you wanted, but if interfered with my house rules, I can still keep you out.

At the end of the day, she stuck to the choice of not shaking the hand. Now what is her peeve? She upheld Islam and great for her. There is no rule the French have to clap for her as well.

Not shaking of hand is not same as playing loud music at night (which affects others. Noise pollution is a crime in many countries). Lets not equate the two because the former isnt causing troubles to others like the latter.

Yes she had upheld her beliefs and we are discussinh whether she should have been parted from her husband for excercising her freedom.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Then why do conservative and religious countries not allow liberals to act and do as they like. Since we have to respect others cultures, why can I need to not eat outside during the day during Ramadan in Saudi?

Only Saudi? Its in most muslim countries. Even UAE.

 

[Madplayer]

In other words she put her religion before her husband and citizenship of France. That was her choice.

The french put their hypocricy before the ideology of liberty which they claim to champion.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

And to think...

All she had to do was to shake a small piece of flesh, moved on with her life for next 40 years as a French citizen and not worry about anything ever again.

The things religion makes a person do...

Sigh.

 

[Madplayer]

They have the liberty to right whatsoever on their door. Its their door and its their interpretation.

How many muslim countries allow liberty to foreigners in their country?

Muslim nations dont claim to be liberal. The burden falls on the ones who claim to follow it.

 

[Sidilicious]

Only Saudi? Its in most muslim countries. Even UAE.

Yeah, was just an example. There are certain rules and culture of the land you need to accept when you move there.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Or its the country's officials who had no problems with granting her a citizenship (they were giving it to her) but act like hypocrites opposing their own values at the 11th hour just because she decided to exercise her right to freedom.



Why should she be happy? Her husband is from France. She has been parted from him.

Obviously the sanctity of her palm was more important for her than staying with her husband in france. She has got her priorities right. She couldnt be a good french citizen, at least she could be a good wife.

 

[Gilly]

Muslim nations dont claim to be liberal. The burden falls on the ones who claim to follow it.

She is not a French citizen.

 

[Sidilicious]

Muslim nations dont claim to be liberal. The burden falls on the ones who claim to follow it.

There is no definition of liberal. France does not need to justify whether it is liberal or not to anyone. It seems to be more interested in preserving its culture.

 

[Madplayer]

Yes, thats for people who already are born there and dont need the privilege of applying for citizenship.

But if I enter as an immigrant, surely they are certain protocols (no matter how petty and stupid and non applicable to already existing citizens) that might be asked by authorities.

Remember, you are not asking for a right, its a privilege and you must respect whatever is going on.

If I enter Seattle airport tomorrow, and the visa officer tells me to strip naked even though i have a valid visa because he is doubting me, I cant tell the visa official that it interferes with my beliefs of non nudity and he has to grant me exception.

Utter nonsense.

Again equating one extreme with another. We are talking about shaking hands here if you missed that part. They were granting her the citizenship. They had no problems at all except. . . .the handshake.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

The french put their hypocricy before the ideology of liberty which they claim to champion.

Did the French suffer?

Common sense demands that you analyze your actions and its consequence before behaving like a spoiled fool.

She is lucky that she had no son or daughter, or her stubborness would have even created more chaos for her loved ones.

 

[Madplayer]

She is not a French citizen.

Already addressed above.

 

[Madplayer]

There is no definition of liberal. France does not need to justify whether it is liberal or not to anyone. It seems to be more interested in preserving its culture.

There is no definition of liberal? Thats a new for me.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Muslim nations dont claim to be liberal. The burden falls on the ones who claim to follow it.

Those who do not follow liberalism has no right to judge liberal values of others.

 

[Varun]

Muslim nations dont claim to be liberal. The burden falls on the ones who claim to follow it.

No it doesn't. Who does the policing on this front anyway?

France will live to see another day. Algerians will look longingly at the Mediterranean towards it.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

Again equating one extreme with another. We are talking about shaking hands here if you missed that part. They were granting her the citizenship. They had no problems at all except. . . .the handshake.

It doesnt matter if what action was required. You can ( Insert your favorite action here ) . If the visa officer wants me to dance before he grants me entry I have to abide by his request if I harbor thoughts of entering. No matter what action a country demands, you have to follow it to get a privilege.

This thought of civil liberties is really an illusion. We mostly follow rules no mtter how stupid they are.

 

[Madplayer]

Did the French suffer?

Common sense demands that you analyze your actions and its consequence before behaving like a spoiled fool.

She is lucky that she had no son or daughter, or her stubborness would have even created more chaos for her loved ones.

Obviously the French didnt suffer.

What are we talking about here again? Whether the decision was justified or not given the ideologies France follows. Not about if they CAN but about if they SHOULD. Is this too hard to understand?

 

[Madplayer]

Those who do not follow liberalism has no right to judge liberal values of others.

Is this rule written in the joshila bible?

 

[Madplayer]

No it doesn't. Who does the policing on this front anyway?

France will live to see another day. Algerians will look longingly at the Mediterranean towards it.

Mate, its an ethical issue we are discussing. Not a legal one. if you claim to be liberal,you have to act liberal. Otherwise you are hypocritical.