Anil Kumble's 74/10 vs Yasir Shah's 41/8 - Whose spell was more epic?

[therealAB]

no one cares about amateur era greats.

actually, ignorant people like you do not care. Laker was a brilliant bowler. What do you define as amateur era

 

[tyron_woodley]

actually, ignorant people like you do not care. Laker was a brilliant bowler. What do you define as amateur era

people like laker are amateurs. laker would be a scrub in the modern era.

 

[Ab Fan]

Kumble.

 

[Ab Fan]

In tests, I rate Kumble very highly. He played for almost two decade and stayed as India's no.1 bowler till the retirement. Harbhajan and even Murali Karthik had some potential but they couldn't dethrone Kumble from being India's no.1 spinner in tests.

In ODIs though, post the turn of millennium, Harbhajan took over Kumble and started leading India's spin attack. Both were nothing special in ODIs though, just very good for India for a good period of their career.

 

[therealAB]

people like laker are amateurs. laker would be a scrub in the modern era.

Nice, coherent argument. Again, what do you define as amateur era?

 

[tyron_woodley]

Nice, coherent argument. Again, what do you define as amateur era?

nice coherent reply but my reply is the same. Pre 80s is an amateur era. Rules were different. Actually rules were different post 2000 too.

Most weren't professional enough to be called sportsmen/athletes back then.

Amateur era.

oh and laker etc are amateurs. don bradman? amateur. He just stood out amongst a bunch of amateurs.

Besides it wasn't even a proper global sport at the time.
It was purely an elitist white privileged sport.

 

[therealAB]

nice coherent reply but my reply is the same. Pre 80s is an amateur era. Rules were different. Actually rules were different post 2000 too.

Most weren't professional enough to be called sportsmen/athletes back then.

Amateur era.

oh and laker etc are amateurs. don bradman? amateur. He just stood out amongst a bunch of amateurs.

Besides it wasn't even a proper global sport at the time.
It was purely an elitist white privileged sport.

Your argument is that they suck, that is not coherent. Here is my argument

How do you rate Greg Chappell. He excelled during the 70's and excelled into the 80's. His average actually went up in the 80's. If there was such a big difference this wouldn't not have occurred. Sobers played from the mid 50's until the early 70's, and was very successful towards the end of his career. The fact that players have had long careers spanning multiple generations and had similar success throughout their career disproves your theory, as if there was a huge difference in era's they would not have had similar levels of success over their careers.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Your argument is that they suck, that is not coherent. Here is my argument

How do you rate Greg Chappell. He excelled during the 70's and excelled into the 80's. His average actually went up in the 80's. If there was such a big difference this wouldn't not have occurred. Sobers played from the mid 50's until the early 70's, and was very successful towards the end of his career. The fact that players have had long careers spanning multiple generations and had similar success throughout their career disproves your theory, as if there was a huge difference in era's they would not have had similar levels of success over their careers.

wasn't a global enough sport. White priviliged elitist sport and not all countries had the opportunity to compete especially the Asian ones.

That's what I am saying. In modern era it's difficult to be a top athlete for longer than 10 years. Your body will break down eventually. In the past they weren't real athletes particularly pre 80s.

You will always have a few exceptions but that's all it is. Most players pre 80s were amateurs in my opinion. infact I don't even believe players from 90s would survive in the modern era with rule changes.

 

[therealAB]

wasn't a global enough sport. White priviliged elitist sport and not all countries had the opportunity to compete especially the Asian ones.

That's what I am saying. In modern era it's difficult to be a top athlete for longer than 10 years. Your body will break down eventually. In the past they weren't real athletes particularly pre 80s.

You will always have a few exceptions but that's all it is. Most players pre 80s were amateurs in my opinion. infact I don't even believe players from 90s would survive in the modern era with rule changes.

So the players that were consistent for over a decade. What about them?

If anything many modern players would struggle in the 90's with the small bats and long boundaries. Rohit for example would be lucky to average 30 in ODI's. You actually had to middle the ball to hit a boundary

 

[NishanKonar]

So the players that were consistent for over a decade. What about them?

If anything many modern players would struggle in the 90's with the small bats and long boundaries. Rohit for example would be lucky to average 30 in ODI's. You actually had to middle the ball to hit a boundary

Rohit Sharma actually middles the ball better than most in history of cricket. Pretty sure he could have hit big sixes in 80s with smaller bats

 

[Bhaijaan]

Jim Laker was a great spinner. His bowling footage is available on YouTube and he seems to be bowling very nice.

Without a doubt the competition level is superior, a lot of these champion cricketers however would easily adapt

Come on lads, don't need to put down past legends to support Anil bhai.

 

[therealAB]

Rohit Sharma actually middles the ball better than most in history of cricket. Pretty sure he could have hit big sixes in 80s with smaller bats

You can't be as aggressive because the moment u mishit one your are out, combined with the longer boundaries. He also couldn't do anything on pitches with movement, see WC semi

 

[Bhaijaan]

You can't be as aggressive because the moment u mishit one your are out, combined with the longer boundaries. He also couldn't do anything on pitches with movement, see WC semi

I think Rohit is one of those talents who get better with exposure and responsibility. The management took a bold decision with him a decade ago when they asked him to open. He reciprocated that gesture by arguably the best decade of output for an ODI opener statistically speaking.

Now they are taking a chance with him in tests, I am positive it will work.

The way people dismissed Sehwag early in his career no one would have thought of him as a test opener but he became one and changed modern day cricket forever.

Rohit could be next.

His minor improvements are visible. In his last few encounters with Amir, he's saved his leg quite well I like players who improve, every small improvement proves a point.

 

[tyron_woodley]

So the players that were consistent for over a decade. What about them?

If anything many modern players would struggle in the 90's with the small bats and long boundaries. Rohit for example would be lucky to average 30 in ODI's. You actually had to middle the ball to hit a boundary

uh no because bowlers are better now than before. bowlers of the past were mediocre athletes. poor athletes infact. Terrible fielders in general.

Game is designed to suit batsmen now which makes current bowlers better than the past greats as they still average close to 20.

SO feeling what lol? they have tapes to watch, data analytics to observe, better nutriton, training methods etc. Past greats would get pieced up in the modern era. All their flaws will be scrutinized in detail and a game plan will be perfectly executed to negate their threats.

You can only be a great of your era. The rules change so frequently to make a reasonable assessment.

rohit sharma isn't even a top player in my opinion. He is still an unknown quantity in tests. He is still a nobody in tests I mean.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Jim Laker was a great spinner. His bowling footage is available on YouTube and he seems to be bowling very nice.

Without a doubt the competition level is superior, a lot of these champion cricketers however would easily adapt

Come on lads, don't need to put down past legends to support Anil bhai.

Jim laker would be a yasir shah in the modern era.

 

[therealAB]

uh no because bowlers are better now than before. bowlers of the past were mediocre athletes. poor athletes infact. Terrible fielders in general.

Game is designed to suit batsmen now which makes current bowlers better than the past greats as they still average close to 20.

SO feeling what lol? they have tapes to watch, data analytics to observe, better nutriton, training methods etc. Past greats would get pieced up in the modern era. All their flaws will be scrutinized in detail and a game plan will be perfectly executed to negate their threats.

You can only be a great of your era. The rules change so frequently to make a reasonable assessment.

rohit sharma isn't even a top player in my opinion. He is still an unknown quantity in tests. He is still a nobody in tests I mean.

In the modern era, the previous players would also have access to the tech if they were transported, they would be able to analyse opponents as well. Only Pak, Ind players were poor athletes and fielders. For me Sobers one of the greatest fielders of all time, along with Ponting, Jonty, Bland, Randall, O'Neill and others. Many of these guys played during older era's

Ray Lindwall is one of the greatest fast bowlers of all time, and he played professional rugby. Top cricketers have been athletes for a while.

You say game is designed to suit batsmen. For test cricket now is similar to previously, but your statement is very true with ODI cricket. As such Starc is almost the GOAT ODI bowler, and Rohit, Roy, Bairstow, Warner etc would struggle with ODI cricket as it was previously played.

Thommo has been timed using quality equipment (please do not argue, as this has been concluded in previous thread by everyone, as equipment has been shown to still be reliable 40 years later) to be as quick as anyone nowadays. I do not know how you can denigrate greats so much

 

[tyron_woodley]

In the modern era, the previous players would also have access to the tech if they were transported, they would be able to analyse opponents as well. Only Pak, Ind players were poor athletes and fielders. For me Sobers one of the greatest fielders of all time, along with Ponting, Jonty, Bland, Randall, O'Neill and others. Many of these guys played during older era's

Ray Lindwall is one of the greatest fast bowlers of all time, and he played professional rugby. Top cricketers have been athletes for a while.

You say game is designed to suit batsmen. For test cricket now is similar to previously, but your statement is very true with ODI cricket. As such Starc is almost the GOAT ODI bowler, and Rohit, Roy, Bairstow, Warner etc would struggle with ODI cricket as it was previously played.

Thommo has been timed using quality equipment (please do not argue, as this has been concluded in previous thread by everyone, as equipment has been shown to still be reliable 40 years later) to be as quick as anyone nowadays. I do not know how you can denigrate greats so much

fair enough. competition wasn't as fierce back in the days though because Asian sides were clearly under developed and under privileged to even get opportunities to challenge themselves and improve their game. West Indies I agree stood our because their athleticism was superior to most other countries in the 80s.

 

[MenInG]

Former Indian leg-spinner Anil Kumble believes that he would have taken the 10-wicket haul in the Delhi Test against Pakistan much earlier, had DRS been available at the time.

Anil Kumble shared various experiences of his cricketing life including the 10-for against Pakistan while interacting with Ravichandran Ashwin on the latter's YouTube show 'DRS With Ash'.

Ashwin asked Anil Kumble how his feelings were while waiting on 9 wickets, with people trying to create the atmosphere for him to get the 10-for and Javagal Srinath even admonishing Sadagoppan Ramesh for attempting a catch off his bowling.

The wily leg-spinner responded that he never felt that he would get all the 10 wickets and was just looking at achieving his best figures.

"When I took six out of six, there was a tea break. So when I came back, I was a bit tired. Because I had bowled from lunch to tea, right throughout that spell. And at tea, I realised that there is a chance for me to get better than what I have done before. I never realised that I will get all 10."

Anil Kumble recalled that he had got his eighth and ninth scalps off the last couple of deliveries of the over.

"I don't think you go into a game thinking you are going to get all 10. Although you try and prepare that way, saying that, how do I bowl from No 1 to No 11 in the team? But you never realise that you will get all 10. So eight and nine happened with the fifth and sixth balls of that over."

Anil Kumble also thanked the crowd for their blessings that helped him achieve the milestone.

"And then when I completed that over and went to my third man position, people around that, in the stands, all of them asked me not to worry and that I will get all 10. So the blessings came from the stands."

The Karnataka leg-spinner acknowledged that it might have been a very difficult proposition for his statemate Javagal Srinath to bowl a full over of wide deliveries to present an opportunity for him to take the last wicket.

"And I didn't need to have a word with Sri at all. Everybody knew that they were all trying to create an atmosphere where I would pick up all 10. And Sri bowled that over, I think it must have been the most difficult over for Srinath.""As a bowler, it is very difficult to consistently tell your mind that you need to bowl wide. It's not easy. Because you are constantly trained to bowl at the stumps or get wickets. And here you are trying hard not to."

Anil Kumble admitted that he was probably lucky that the ball was slightly away from Ramesh else the latter might have held on to the catch, despite the other teammates shouting and asking him to drop it.

"And knowing Ramesh, I don't think he deliberately did that. He was not even aware. He was going all out for the catch. And I remember the fielders around him screaming and asking him to drop the catch. And I guess for me the ball was slightly further away from Ramesh. Otherwise he would have probably taken the catch."

Anil Kumble also revealed that he had planned to give Wasim Akram a single to get Waqar Younis on strike but the Pakistan captain had no intention of exposing the No. 11 batsman to the marauding leg-spinner.

"When I came back to bowl the next over, I realised that Wasim Akram was on strike. And he had been batting for a while. So I wanted Waqar on strike. Because I thought that was the easier wicket there, and give Wasim a single. So I pushed mid-on back, mid-off back, thinking that Wasim will take a single and get Waqar on strike. But I realised after two balls that Wasim is not going to take a single."
With the realisation that he had to dismiss Akram in that over itself, Anil Kumble managed to bamboozle the Pakistan left-hander with a spinning leg-break that he edged to VVS Laxman at short leg.

"So I got everyone up and I said, 'Look, if I have to take this 10, it has to be Wasim. And in this over'. Because you can't ask Sri to do another over again. It would be really embarrassing. It was one of those things where Wasim proudly didn't play for the spin. It spun and I got the inside edge and Laxman took a brilliant catch at short leg. So, yes, it was a team effort."

Ashwin reminded Anil Kumble that when he had taken the final wicket he had run backward, making the former believe that the leg-spinner was going to lift umpire Jayaprakash.

The India off-spinner even recollected that one day he had met umpire Jayaprakash at the clubhouse of KSCA, where the latter was giving his visiting cards that had all the photos of the 10 wickets that Anil Kumble had taken to people.

Anil Kumble acknowledged that he had seen that visiting card, while dismissing any suggestions of bias in his favour considering the two of them were from the same city.

"It's pretty strange. I guess everybody wanted to be a part of the event. And maybe Jay felt that it was something special for him. And I don't think you would want the umpire to celebrate your wickets. I know there has been a lot of talk about Jay being from Bangalore. But then umpires...I think it's rubbish when you start attributing wickets to the, or bias, to the umpire."

Ashwin concurred with Anil Kumble that there were no debatable decisions and had there been DRS, it would have proved that.

"If there was DRS, everything was out. It was clean out."

Anil Kumble opined that had the review system been available at that time, he would have achieved the 10-wicket haul much earlier in the match.

"If there was DRS, I would have probably gotten the 10 earlier. That's how I look at it."

In the 1999 Delhi Test, Pakistan had reached a score of 101 for no loss in pursuit of the victory target of 420 runs when Anil Kumble ran through their batting line-up. The leg-spinner returned figures of 10/74 as Pakistan was bowled out for 207 to lose the match by 212 runs.

https://www.sportskeeda.com/cricket/news-if-drs-there-i-got-10-for-earlier-anil-kumble

 

[Bhaijaan]

He was all over Pakistan in that inning. Just one of those days, all his deliveries were hitting pads or stumps like bullets. People cry about some of the decisions and all that, if there were more wickets on offer he probably would have kept taking wickets all day long. Was unstoppable and he never bowled like that again.

 

[Slog]

Afridi Wicket was questionable but everything else was plumb.... Either way I was happy not only because India won, but it paid back Moin Khan and the Pakistanis for cheating in broad daylight by taking the greatest bumped catch of all time in the previous test match...

I watched the video Hitman posted above. I didn't really notice any wrong decisions. Can anyone point out which ones were wrong?

Ijaz Ahmed is clearly going legside

even commentator says 'not too sure about that one' lol

for youhana the umpire is so eager to give out that he puts his finger up even before appeal lol

anyways i dont begrudge the 10 wickets and these things happen. certainly dont think there was any grand conspiracy

 

[majiz]

probably the yasir shah spell considering nearly half off the kumble wickets shouldn't have been given

 

[Ab Fan]

Home umpiring advantage.

Unexpected behaviour of ball due to bowl tampering.

A little before that in 80s, bowling to batsmen without helmets, no bouncers rule, no spirit of the game, non stop barrage of bouncers on tailenders .

This is such a huge disadvantage to modern era bowlers. I demand an increase in +2-3 avg of bowlers from 90s and before when comparing with modern era bowlers.

Basically, the point is if you invent a time machine, put Mohammad Shami in that and send him to 1980s or 90s, you will find that the cricinfo database will get updated where his bowling average will drop from 27 to 24 and similar behaviour is expected for Ishant, Rabada, Wagner, Barbie and other modern era bowlers as well.

 

[tyron_woodley]

lol imagine shami bowling to batsmen with no helmets haha. Dude has one of the deadliest bouncers in the game. So does bumrah. Shoaib bhai would be good in that era too.

Btw there were unlimited bouncers available at the time too....

 

[Bhaijaan]

probably the yasir shah spell considering nearly half off the kumble wickets shouldn't have been given

So it is ''half'' now

Going by the denial level of Pakistanis, it will be 8/10 in 2030

By 2050, Pakistani fans will claim Kumble doesn't exist. Get over it man. It was a freak spell.

 

[Bhaijaan]

lol imagine shami bowling to batsmen with no helmets haha. Dude has one of the deadliest bouncers in the game. So does bumrah. Shoaib bhai would be good in that era too.

Btw there were unlimited bouncers available at the time too....

Shami is next level to Wagner actually. I have mentioned many times, you put Shami and Bumrah next to Kapil in 1970s-1980s Indian team and they'd be tormenting major cricket nations on daily basis. Shami hits batsmen wherever he goes with his unreal pace off the wicket.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

It was tremendous bowling by yasir but I think Kumble edges it because it came against arch rivals in a must win match.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Shami is next level to Wagner actually. I have mentioned many times, you put Shami and Bumrah next to Kapil in 1970s-1980s Indian team and they'd be tormenting major cricket nations on daily basis. Shami hits batsmen wherever he goes with his unreal pace off the wicket.

that's what the quacks here on PP fail to understand. You put a couple of good to great bowlers next to an top tier legend like kapil and it changes the whole dynamic of the bowling attack. Imagine kapil having support from his partner and first change? india would have been a force in the 80s.

 

[Bhaijaan]

that's what the quacks here on PP fail to understand. You put a couple of good to great bowlers next to an top tier legend like kapil and it changes the whole dynamic of the bowling attack. Imagine kapil having support from his partner and first change? india would have been a force in the 80s.

Kapil's a proper 22-24 average level test fast bowler in any all round bowling attack.

The fact that he shouldered the entire load of Indian bowling across 134 test matches straight without a single miss is testament to him being among the greatest ever athletes, fast bowlers and ARs to ever grace the game.

Stuart Clarke averages 23 as part of a great bowling line up.

A well rounded bowling attack improves everyone's statistic significantly and its impact on W/L ratio is even greater.

There is a reason why Kapil is a greater fast bowler as well as the greater batsman than both Imran and Botham against the West Indies. He put everything on the line against the best of the best .

 

[tyron_woodley]

Kapil's a proper 22-24 average level test fast bowler in any all round bowling attack.

The fact that he shouldered the entire load of Indian bowling across 134 test matches straight without a single miss is testament to him being among the greatest ever athletes, fast bowlers and ARs to ever grace the game.

Stuart Clarke averages 23 as part of a great bowling line up.

A well rounded bowling attack improves everyone's statistic significantly and its impact on W/L ratio is even greater.

There is a reason why Kapil is a greater fast bowler as well as the greater batsman than both Imran and Botham against the West Indies. He put everything on the line against the best of the best .

I agree kapil is one of the best ever. He is greater than botham but I am not sure about imran. I would say imran is the best from that era.

kapil with shami and bumrah for instance would have been deadly. Would be very difficult to beat india if kapil had support.

You can't pick ATG Players based on stats alone.

 

[MenInG]

Another anniversary of this excellent performance.

 

[NishanKonar]

A great performance in probably the best Indo-Pak test series. Thats series was amazing - all 3 tests were a delight to watch. Afridi, Sachin, Kumble, Anwar, Srinath , SHoaib Akhtar produced memorable feats

Kumble's 10 wicket haul was the icing on the cake !