Any converts here on PakPassion?

[TalentSpotterPk]

wow, you know quite alot about me.

Bro, if we follow religion properly, stick by its rules, we will obviously end up having regrets.

If i'm not doing something wrong(which is a good thing religiously) then why has God or Religion allowed me to go into depression? Why doesn't HE take me out of it.

Depression is really hard to deal with. Why doesn't religion intervene and stop it?
Doesn't religion say that Suicide is haram, and what is the cause of suicide? Depression obviously.

Yaar Saaray Clinic bund ker dein phir ?


Religion tells you that irrespective of your mental state. Those who have firm belief on God fight it out while other's cave into it.


It's the extreme state when one is Lost completely and isn't in his senses. In that state even if anyone will committ succidde He could say to Allah I was not in any sense at all to even consider making a choice.

You by no mean are are in that state. Alhamdoulillah.


So so some effort and get rid of it.


I don't agree that by praying my disease or all my worries will end or they should end.


Sometimes you suffer due to your deeds, sometimes you are being tested by God, sometimes your own wrong decisions make you suffer.


There are people who are farther away from God. They do whatever unki pakarh nai hoti. Allah is not botherered to jitter them, punish them or test them in this life. They live a happy worldly life too. But Allah will reward them later if He intends so.


You address your concerns rationally. A Good doctor and healthy life style.

 

[Major]

I thought it would be something like that honestly,i would like to tell you it's nothing that important and you will forget about that,that almost everyone go through that atleast one time in his life but reality is i can't feel or understand what it's was or mean to you nor can anyone else.

my problem is that i have been going through this for the last 5 years and really need it to stop.

 

[Major]

Yaar Saaray Clinic bund ker dein phir ?


Religion tells you that irrespective of your mental state. Those who have firm belief on God fight it out while other's cave into it.


It's the extreme state when one is Lost completely and isn't in his senses. In that state even if anyone will committ succidde He could say to Allah I was not in any sense at all to even consider making a choice.

You by no mean are are in that state. Alhamdoulillah.


So so some effort and get rid of it.


I don't agree that by praying my disease or all my worries will end or they should end.


Sometimes you suffer due to your deeds, sometimes you are being tested by God, sometimes your own wrong decisions make you suffer.


There are people who are farther away from God. They do whatever unki pakarh nai hoti. Allah is not botherered to jitter them, punish them or test them in this life. They live a happy worldly life too. But Allah will reward them later if He intends so.


You address your concerns rationally. A Good doctor and healthy life style.

But couldn't mental health be solved by religion? Because depression is a thing that doesn't exist physically.

i use to believe in the past i was being tested by GOd and all that. But i won't believe a test lasting more then 5 years, infact even a relapse can't mean its a test.

Also why should one suffer from its own decision when from a religious point of view its a good decision. This sentence itself makes me wana question religion.

 

[Black Zero]

So , you are trying to say that Muslims are not educated ?

Following is about western societies:

 

[Nostalgic]

But couldn't mental health be solved by religion? Because depression is a thing that doesn't exist physically.

Not quite. Clinical depression is very much a physical thing. The brain is a part of the body, as are all the myriad hormones that may influence the brain.

 

[itsme]

my problem is that i have been going through this for the last 5 years and really need it to stop.

You can't stop it like that,you are trying to escape from your problems using religion.5 years is a long time.
Either you accept your past's regrets and move on,find new hobbies,start going out with friends,who know you can be attract to a new person or you try to correct your past's acts recontact your crush(though maybe she isn't alone anymore?) try to do what you couldn't in the past.
Honestly i can't helped you much (never had a crush,never loved someone...) but refuging in religion isn't the answer nor blaming it,no one can change anything but yourself.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

But couldn't mental health be solved by religion? Because depression is a thing that doesn't exist physically.

i use to believe in the past i was being tested by GOd and all that. But i won't believe a test lasting more then 5 years, infact even a relapse can't mean its a test.

Also why should one suffer from its own decision when from a religious point of view its a good decision. This sentence itself makes me wana question religion.

You having a Crush on a girl and you not approaching her resulted in you getting depression ?

This is your assesment. Not Allah's nor your physician's.


If you did not approach her due to religious reasons than you will never get depression due to it. (My opinion + belief)


If you did not approach her for other reasons than I cannot say anything about them as I don't know.



The Concept of Disease is not like the Concept of GOD. Every disease exists in 3 dimemsional space and is physical. The world is spending billions of dollars on depression and you say it doesnt exist physically. It does my friend.


I wish & pray that your depressive state ends forever and you do not ever encounter a relapse but if you expect religion to do it than I am afraid religion is not good enough to do it. It only caters for diseases of soul, moral diseases.

So I am afraid you will be dissapointed. You will have to take physical steps to eradicate it.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Following is about western societies:
View attachment 74891

" Project Just crazy & Musakhel "

I am intrigued to know fate of this down the line in may be 2019.


God I have to wait so longgggggggggg



You're a dear friend I hope you don't mind.

 

[Black Zero]

" Project Just crazy & Musakhel "

I am intrigued to know fate of this down the line in may be 2019.


God I have to wait so longgggggggggg



You're a dear friend I hope you don't mind.

More like a project TSP to me.
Frankly I do not want anyone to leave religion. I do not even "preach" to my own childern cause they are small and I consider preaching young kids brain washing.

Consider yourself, someone brain washed you when you were small, and to date you are certain that you are on the right path.
Above is true for 99% people.

Hope you won't mind

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

More like a project TSP to me.
Frankly I do not want anyone to leave religion. I do not even "preach" to my own childern cause they are small and I consider preaching young kids brain washing.

Consider yourself, someone brain washed you when you were small, and to date you are certain that you are on the right path.
Above is true for 99% people.

Hope you won't mind

The Grass is always green on the other side


I don't mind.


Give my love to my nephew & neice from their Chacha

 

[super hitter]

It was nothing to do with being Hafiz.

It was simply the more I studied, the more I understood.

It wasn't simply the study of religion but history, science, politics, anthropology, psychology to name a few. Once seen in that light it becomes obvious that religion was a device used to maintain centralised power over the masses.


If religion was what is practiced by my family and friends then I would be a Muslim today. But I can't ignore the facts.

Facts of science is one of the major aspects that can mislead you. Science is nothing but a medium made by the humans to understand the laws of nature. Hence, this is one of the reasons why laws of nature cannot be proved spiritually, something that Islam and the Quran can. And the biggest evidence to back my statement is the efficiency of Science; not even a single law of the subject can be specified as PERFECT. An example could be the Newton's Laws; his laws regarding the light being a particle or wave were totally wrong, followed by Young and Planck who carried out experiments on light being particle and wave, until Einstein thought and came to the conclusion that light was of dual nature (particle and wave) ,BUT the formula was refused BECAUSE he couldn't prove it mathematically, although he could imagine and relate the variables.

 

[super hitter]

Following is about western societies:
View attachment 74891

Wow, so I found something that backs my post [MENTION=1080]miandadrules[/MENTION]

 

[super hitter]

a russian writer wrote a book promoting atheism and prayed every night that the book would sell

cool post

 

[Black Zero]

Wow, so I found something that backs my post [MENTION=1080]miandadrules[/MENTION]

Let me take a wild guess, you come under general population.

 

[super hitter]

Let me take a wild guess, you come under general population.

you can easily expect that, going to be a BS soon Inshallah

 

[Badsha]

They'll find out on the Day of Judgement I guess. All I can say.

Its sad , because there are very few scholars who can answer people with patience . Under secular education people have been taken away from spirituaity , and pushed towards materialism.

They will find the moment the veil of unseen is lifted , they see angels of death. Unfortunately one cannot do anything at that time. It will be too late.

As a Muslim I don't like seeing this sort of tone towards others that are coming out in the open. We need to be open to listening to other people's viewpoints, present our own viewpoint and then leave it at that.

 

[miandadrules]

Facts of science is one of the major aspects that can mislead you. Science is nothing but a medium made by the humans to understand the laws of nature. Hence, this is one of the reasons why laws of nature cannot be proved spiritually, something that Islam and the Quran can. And the biggest evidence to back my statement is the efficiency of Science; not even a single law of the subject can be specified as PERFECT. An example could be the Newton's Laws; his laws regarding the light being a particle or wave were totally wrong, followed by Young and Planck who carried out experiments on light being particle and wave, until Einstein thought and came to the conclusion that light was of dual nature (particle and wave) ,BUT the formula was refused BECAUSE he couldn't prove it mathematically, although he could imagine and relate the variables.

Wow, so I found something that backs my post [MENTION=1080]miandadrules[/MENTION]

Are you aware in the slightest of the cognitive dissonance you have displayed?

 

[miandadrules]

but becoming a hafiz was your own decision or your parents?

It was mine. It felt like the next logical step at the time.

My family were supportive but they weren't concerned whether I did or not. But they were happy that I did.

 

[ExpressPacer]

[MENTION=135038]Major[/MENTION] I would advise you to approach her.

 

[Justcrazy]

Following is about western societies:
View attachment 74891

This is not answer.

 

[Justcrazy]

As a Muslim I don't like seeing this sort of tone towards others that are coming out in the open. We need to be open to listening to other people's viewpoints, present our own viewpoint and then leave it at that.

I have left it at that , where did I force someone to believe my point of view ?

I go to my grave , others to there own.

 

[Black Zero]

This is not answer.

Well, if you prefer straight answer, then, yes religious(muslims included) people are much less educated than non religious people.
Additionally, non religious people are smarter than religious people. (Believing is easy, thinking is tough)

Though on flip side, religious people are happier and live longer comparatively.

 

[Justcrazy]

Well, if you prefer straight answer, then, yes religious(muslims included) people are much less educated than non religious people.
Additionally, non religious people are smarter than religious people. (Believing is easy, thinking is tough)

Though on flip side, religious people are happier and live longer comparatively.

And what about educated Muslims ?

 

[Black Zero]

And what about educated Muslims ?

What about them?
In addition to the chart, I also spelled out that on average religious people are less educated.

And Muslims are worse with respect to other religions.

Do you understand the concept of "on average" ?

 

[pakistanisgreat]

Though im a muslim, but im very confused about my religion.

Thing is, i have lived a good part of my teenage life(now 22) in depression.I religiously followed every rule that should had protected me during my teenage years from ill morals, and yet today i'm still unhappy and have regrets. For the last 2 years i have been a regular prayer. I have prayed 4 of namaz very regularly(i skip Fajar), and yet even after that i have depression. I was told that religion will clear my depression, and here i'm.

People tell me that religion could do this, cure this and that, ask god and he will give it to you. Whatever i have received, whatever has happened hasn't bought any happiness to me.

In the past i atleast use to have a kind heart, now my heart is soo hard as a rock that recently my uncle died and i couldn't even shed a single tear.

Now what i'm slowly learning is that everything is in the hands of a person. Its a persons own actions that leads to his own happiness or unhappiness.

My group of my best friends have done drugs had sex and approached there crushes and all, and todays those guys arn't miserable, are happy and dont have any regrets.

I on the other hand did neither of those things, never even tried a cigarette, yet i'm the most depressed person in my group and have the most regrets.

Maybe in the next 10 years if i still feel miserable even after praying and fasting and following most of the religious rules, i would have to reconsider all that

Keep doing what you doing with passion. Insha Allah soon your depression will go away. You will be a happy and satisfy person. It is just some times you get tested by Allah. As Allah said in quran" Fa inna ma'al usri yusra .Inna ma'al 'usri yusra. Fa iza faragh ta fansab".
So verily, with the hardship, there is relief,
Verily, with the hardship, there is relief (i.e. there is one hardship with two reliefs, so one hardship cannot overcome two reliefs).
So when you have finished (from your occupation), then stand up for Allah's worship (i.e. stand up for prayer).

I have been to tough time of my life. However, sticking to religion made my life peaceful and happy.

 

[miandadrules]

And what about educated Muslims ?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...eople-faith-instinct-cleverness-a7742766.html

 

[DW44]

This is not answer.

Off course it is. A few facts to put things into perspective:

(a) Bar Hindus, the vast majority of whom are concentrated in one extremely poor countryThere thereby making them a statistical anomaly, Muslims are by far the least educated of any major religious group on earth.
(b) There is a direct correlation between level of education and likelihood of being irreligious. In Pakistan for instance, where less than 2% of the population have a university education, the corresponding figure for atheists is north of 90%.
(c) There is a direct correlation between intelligence (quantified by IQ for convenience) and likelihood of being irreligious.

All of those factors aren't a coincidence. Religion, especially an all encompassing one like Islam, expects people to believe some truly mind boggling things and commit some utterly unconscionable acts, and it's no surprise that it's those who are significantly more intelligent and better educated than their peers who see through the lies and leave while those left behind drag the averages down even further. In Pakistan, you would see a huge exodus of well educated people from Islam if their safety was guaranteed. The only reason its kept so hush hush and numbers are so low is because Muslims here are in a majority and therefore free to engage in violence without fear of repercussions, much like the cow vigilantes of India.

 

[Justcrazy]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...eople-faith-instinct-cleverness-a7742766.html

All those stuff which Muslim people of early years developed , they were fools ?

 

[miandadrules]

All those stuff which Muslim people of early years developed , they were fools ?

The more pertinent question is why did the development stop?

 

[jusarrived]

Life is too short to worry about things which makes absolute no sense and I really dont need to read a Gita or any other holy book to tell whats wrong or right , I think I do more right than wrong and when I do I mistake am well aware of it . Makes me an agonist probably though I like the identity of being called a Hindu , which has little to do with Gods and more to do with Temples or festivals etc .

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Off course it is. A few facts to put things into perspective:

(a) Bar Hindus, the vast majority of whom are concentrated in one extremely poor countryThere thereby making them a statistical anomaly, Muslims are by far the least educated of any major religious group on earth.
(b) There is a direct correlation between level of education and likelihood of being irreligious. In Pakistan for instance, where less than 2% of the population have a university education, the corresponding figure for atheists is north of 90%.
(c) There is a direct correlation between intelligence (quantified by IQ for convenience) and likelihood of being irreligious.

All of those factors aren't a coincidence. Religion, especially an all encompassing one like Islam, expects people to believe some truly mind boggling things and commit some utterly unconscionable acts, and it's no surprise that it's those who are significantly more intelligent and better educated than their peers who see through the lies and leave while those left behind drag the averages down even further. In Pakistan, you would see a huge exodus of well educated people from Islam if their safety was guaranteed. The only reason its kept so hush hush and numbers are so low is because Muslims here are in a majority and therefore free to engage in violence without fear of repercussions, much like the cow vigilantes of India.

Seems to me the educated people who stay in Pakistan probably benefit themselves from the status quo. The class divide seems ingrained in the subcontinent and religion is probably as good a way as any to maintain it. So I'm not sure about the assertion that you'd see a huge exodus from Islam if the educated people's safety was guaranteed. The educated are usually the leaders in most countries, if they've somehow become outwitted by the religious bumpkins then I think they probably had some part to play in it.

 

[jusarrived]

Is that why most of them identity with hindutva now a days then?
What you said used to be the case around a decade ago.Things are changing pretty fast now and India is heading towards a disaster with right wing lunatics at the helm.What sucks is that the main opposition party Congress is even worse.

I dont think more Indians identify with Hindutva now than they did 10 years back , I always found people from the last generation a lot more religious than our generation . Barely 1 in 10 people i meet are strictly religious these days . Large majority of Hinuds voted BJP into power cos they are progressive and congress was not an option anymore . its just like the west , going by the trend you would think everyone is going nutter in US and some EU countries .

 

[Hornbill]

From hindu to an atheist, people, imo religious people don't have self confidence they are always dependent on external power.

 

[JoniInsafian]

Off course it is. A few facts to put things into perspective:

(a) Bar Hindus, the vast majority of whom are concentrated in one extremely poor countryThere thereby making them a statistical anomaly, Muslims are by far the least educated of any major religious group on earth.
(b) There is a direct correlation between level of education and likelihood of being irreligious. In Pakistan for instance, where less than 2% of the population have a university education, the corresponding figure for atheists is north of 90%.
(c) There is a direct correlation between intelligence (quantified by IQ for convenience) and likelihood of being irreligious.

All of those factors aren't a coincidence. Religion, especially an all encompassing one like Islam, expects people to believe some truly mind boggling things and commit some utterly unconscionable acts, and it's no surprise that it's those who are significantly more intelligent and better educated than their peers who see through the lies and leave while those left behind drag the averages down even further. In Pakistan, you would see a huge exodus of well educated people from Islam if their safety was guaranteed. The only reason its kept so hush hush and numbers are so low is because Muslims here are in a majority and therefore free to engage in violence without fear of repercussions, much like the cow vigilantes of India.

Sir what is the point of intelligence??? Religious people are more likely to be happy, healthy, less likely to be stressed, to suicide, to be depressed,..... Everyone here would choose happiness over intelligence.... The only reason you don't feel depressed over religion is because you spend your time debating against it.... The day you forget about Islam and try to understand life as an atheist then you will understand point of Islam.... Peace

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Sir what is the point of intelligence??? Religious people are more likely to be happy, healthy, less likely to be stressed, to suicide, to be depressed,..... Everyone here would choose happiness over intelligence.... The only reason you don't feel depressed over religion is because you spend your time debating against it.... The day you forget about Islam and try to understand life as an atheist then you will understand point of Islam.... Peace

Assalamoalaikum Joni.

Joni are you back to Islam or we need to take this Post as an example of Derision ?


Welcome back to PakPassion.

 

[DW44]

Seems to me the educated people who stay in Pakistan probably benefit themselves from the status quo. The class divide seems ingrained in the subcontinent and religion is probably as good a way as any to maintain it. So I'm not sure about the assertion that you'd see a huge exodus from Islam if the educated people's safety was guaranteed. The educated are usually the leaders in most countries, if they've somehow become outwitted by the religious bumpkins then I think they probably had some part to play in it.

Rich people, not educated ones. The rich make up a tiny subset of the educated population. The class divide has been perpetuated using religion but the classes guilty of that are mostly the rural feudals, who have traditionally supplied the bulk of our civilian politicians, and the military leadership not ordinary middle and lower class educated folk. That said, given the extent of religious brainwashing in Pakistan, those who'd leave would make up a small minority but even if they make up 1% of the population, a conservative estimate, that's two million people right there so in terms of raw numbers, it absolutely would qualify as an exodus.

 

[DW44]

Sir what is the point of intelligence??? Religious people are more likely to be happy, healthy, less likely to be stressed, to suicide, to be depressed,..... Everyone here would choose happiness over intelligence.... The only reason you don't feel depressed over religion is because you spend your time debating against it.... The day you forget about Islam and try to understand life as an atheist then you will understand point of Islam.... Peace

How do you argue with someone who, straight off the bat, starts with "what's the point of intelligence"? The world is an infinitely better place today than at any point in the past and that is the product of human intelligence. As far as your claims relating to stress, suicide and depression are concerned, there is zero empirical evidence to support them. Happiness and well being are extremely hard to quantify but whatever imperfect methodologies have been developed put the likes of Denmark and Norway, countries that have atheist majorities, near the top while Muslim states continue to be plagued with poverty, corruption, thousands of deaths every day to Islamic terrorism and appalling development indicators in general which, by the way, are the best (albeit still imperfect) way to quantify well being.

I want nothing to do with Islam but the reason I have to debate it is because I live in an Islamic society, surrounded by Muslims and governed by Islamic laws for the most part so Islam directly affects my life, thereby compelling me to speak up. The day I'm far enough away from such places, I will forget about it.

 

[miandadrules]

Sir what is the point of intelligence??? Religious people are more likely to be happy, healthy, less likely to be stressed, to suicide, to be depressed,..... Everyone here would choose happiness over intelligence.... The only reason you don't feel depressed over religion is because you spend your time debating against it.... The day you forget about Islam and try to understand life as an atheist then you will understand point of Islam.... Peace

It's not a choice between intelligence and religion. You don't choose intelligence, you acquire it.

What if the interpretation and application of that religion causes misery and persecution of others? Should we still chose religion for selfish reasons? Isn't that the anthessis of what religion purports to be?

As to the meaning of life? It's simple it's a life with meaning.

 

[miandadrules]

*not acquire, develop I meant

 

[JoniInsafian]

Assalamoalaikum Joni.

Joni are you back to Islam or we need to take this Post as an example of Derision ?


Welcome back to PakPassion.

Thank you [MENTION=138980]TalentSpotterPk[/MENTION]..... I do not make joke of religion.....

 

[JoniInsafian]

How do you argue with someone who, straight off the bat, starts with "what's the point of intelligence"? The world is an infinitely better place today than at any point in the past and that is the product of human intelligence. As far as your claims relating to stress, suicide and depression are concerned, there is zero empirical evidence to support them. Happiness and well being are extremely hard to quantify but whatever imperfect methodologies have been developed put the likes of Denmark and Norway, countries that have atheist majorities, near the top while Muslim states continue to be plagued with poverty, corruption, thousands of deaths every day to Islamic terrorism and appalling development indicators in general which, by the way, are the best (albeit still imperfect) way to quantify well being.

I want nothing to do with Islam but the reason I have to debate it is because I live in an Islamic society, surrounded by Muslims and governed by Islamic laws for the most part so Islam directly affects my life, thereby compelling me to speak up. The day I'm far enough away from such places, I will forget about it.

Denmark and Norway??? You mean countries with highest rate of suicide and depression??? )

 

[DW44]

Denmark and Norway??? You mean countries with highest rate of suicide and depression??? )

Highest recorded rates because they actually keep records and therefor can't be compared with third world Islamic states like Pakistan where, according to local mental health professionals, as many as 45% of the population may be suffering from from some forms of mental illness. These countries still offer an infinitely superior life to any Islamic society, are far more successful and there's a reason people go there and not to Pakistan.

 

[Hitman]

Born in a Hindu family. Accepted Lord Jesus Christ in 2004 at the age of 18, and became a Born-Again Christian. My parents have never been that religious, in fact my father now considers himself an atheist.

 

[yasir]

I'm an atheist.

I was raised in a very religious family, though religion was never forced upon me.

I was a Hafiz as a child, but ultimately the more I studied the more I realised the fallacy which had been imposed on people.

WOW, that's interesting, now I can quote my friends that Hafiz can be Atheist too, there is no magical power in the so call word of God

BTW: I am an Atheist as well, many here know that already. I was brought up in a Muslim family. More I learn about the world around us, more I come to the conclusion religion is not only completely false, its has evolve into a political ideology designed to keep your mind enslaved and prejudice like some of the other faith base ideologies (race, patriotism, ethnicity etc). If was not for Science we would not have been able to encounter religion as forcefully as we do know!!

Right now match up between Religion and Science is sort of similar to what we saw yesterday between Pakistan Vs India, its one side hammering

 

[yasir]

Sir what is the point of intelligence??? Religious people are more likely to be happy, healthy, less likely to be stressed, to suicide, to be depressed,..... Everyone here would choose happiness over intelligence.... The only reason you don't feel depressed over religion is because you spend your time debating against it.... The day you forget about Islam and try to understand life as an atheist then you will understand point of Islam.... Peace

What is the issue with life as an Atheist?? - What part of knowing the real world is not satisfying??

Also, I don't agree with this statement: "Religious people are more likely to be happy, healthy, less likely to be stressed, to suicide, to be depressed"

Religious people are lot more depress (if you go into percentage) and have unhappy life, mainly because of poverty and helplessness. Religion only is a pain killer (a drug) to num the nerve for time being, it does not cure anything. Religion thrive in illiteracy, poverty, it actually exploits helplessness, which is the worse thing to do...

 

[CricketCartoons]

I dont think more Indians identify with Hindutva now than they did 10 years back , I always found people from the last generation a lot more religious than our generation . Barely 1 in 10 people i meet are strictly religious these days . Large majority of Hinuds voted BJP into power cos they are progressive and congress was not an option anymore . its just like the west , going by the trend you would think everyone is going nutter in US and some EU countries .

More hindus are becoming less religious, but more are identifying themselves a political hindus. They rarely visit a temple, and don't know a single shloka, can hardly identify which veda contains what. But they stand for the hindu cause, whatever that may mean to them.

 

[troodon]

Born in a Hindu family. Accepted Lord Jesus Christ in 2004 at the age of 18, and became a Born-Again Christian. My parents have never been that religious, in fact my father now considers himself an atheist.

One of my best friends is also a huge believer in Jesus though he is not a Christian. He is more like a closet Christian.
What made you do so if I may ask? Any experiences or just reading Bible made you convert?

 

[Hitman]

One of my best friends is also a huge believer in Jesus though he is not a Christian. He is more like a closet Christian.
What made you do so if I may ask? Any experiences or just reading Bible made you convert?

Have been a depression patient since I was 15 years old. Used to be suicidal for a long time. Was looking for ways to end my life on the net. Came to a page where it said that ending one's life is not the end because you'll suffer unimaginable agony in hell for eternity if you die without accepting Lord Jesus in your life. It redirected me to a page about reaching to God by accepting Lord Jesus in my life. From there my journey started.

 

[miandadrules]

What is the issue with life as an Atheist?? - What part of knowing the real world is not satisfying??

Also, I don't agree with this statement: "Religious people are more likely to be happy, healthy, less likely to be stressed, to suicide, to be depressed"

Religious people are lot more depress (if you go into percentage) and have unhappy life, mainly because of poverty and helplessness. Religion only is a pain killer (a drug) to num the nerve for time being, it does not cure anything. Religion thrive in illiteracy, poverty, it actually exploits helplessness, which is the worse thing to do...

I think that "pain killer" has a role to play.

I see no benefit in telling a mother from a poor country who has a lost a child and believes the child is in heaven, that a religion is hoax. If she derives comfort from it then I see no point in disrupting that.

Likewise in other benign situations. However, by and large we know the role of religion is far from benign.

Like you said it's just another political ideaology.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

More hindus are becoming less religious, but more are identifying themselves a political hindus. They rarely visit a temple, and don't know a single shloka, can hardly identify which veda contains what. But they stand for the hindu cause, whatever that may mean to them.

A lot of countries are happy to pay lip service to a religious identity while adopting a secular irreligious stance on most political matters. Israel would come to mind here, Pakistan too if you listen to the fundamentalists. To a lesser extent many of the western countries fall into this bracket like the UK, USA, Canada etc.

Turkey was probably the only Islamic country which took a stand against religion to the extent even some elements of religious attire were banned for a long time.

 

[yasir]

I think that "pain killer" has a role to play.

I see no benefit in telling a mother from a poor country who has a lost a child and believes the child is in heaven, that a religion is hoax. If she derives comfort from it then I see no point in disrupting that.

Likewise in other benign situations. However, by and large we know the role of religion is far from benign.

Like you said it's just another political ideaology.

I don't disagree with that, education is a slow process, you cannot be discussing theory of relatively in primary school, not the right time and stage of kid's development. But as a society you want to allow more open and liberal culture to develop, the right kind of education to steer the culture of society. What Pakistan has done, out source the education of poor to Mulvis, with 40K Madasaras(from 5K in last 3 decades), that has completely opposite effect...What we have produce is Tablagis, who have rotten nook and corner of society. We have gone way backward.

It is now even harder to fight the dogma of religion. Education has always helped get rid of dogmas of all kind, by education I mean based on evidence/data. What I find in Pakistan that even the local scholars are skeptical of Science, they think of it as some thing evil west has developed to undermine our culture and heritage, we have not embrace Science. For us Science is a butler whose job is to make things for us to consume and shape our knowledge and philosophy. Science education is very weak in Pakistan, we are producing doctors and engineers but more like modern moosdaar or labor rather than thinker and innovators, because frankly openness is not there. You are Lyncing kids who challenge people out of all places in Universities, what else is expected of rest of society

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I don't disagree with that, education is a slow process, you cannot be discussing theory of relatively in primary school, not the right time and stage of kid's development. But as a society you want to allow more open and liberal culture to develop, the right kind of education to steer the culture of society. What Pakistan has done, out source the education of poor to Mulvis, with 40K Madasaras(from 5K in last 3 decades), that has completely opposite effect...What we have produce is Tablagis, who have rotten nook and corner of society. We have gone way backward.

It is now even harder to fight the dogma of religion. Education has always helped get rid of dogmas of all kind, by education I mean based on evidence/data. What I find in Pakistan that even the local scholars are skeptical of Science, they think of it as some thing evil west has developed to undermine our culture and heritage, we have not embrace Science. For us Science is a butler whose job is to make things for us to consume and shape our knowledge and philosophy. Science education is very weak in Pakistan, we are producing doctors and engineers but more like modern moosdaar or labor rather than thinker and innovators, because frankly openness is not there. You are Lyncing kids who challenge people out of all places in Universities, what else is expected of rest of society

Maybe we should look at how those societies you admire for their education and science advanced and look for the third world to use those as a role model. Any in particular you would like to follow?

 

[yasir]

Maybe we should look at how those societies you admire for their education and science advanced and look for the third world to use those as a role model. Any in particular you would like to follow?

Anything is better than Saudis and Iranians...

Pakistan still uses British political system at face value only, same goes for education system, but in letter and spirit we sold the society to Mullas of 7th Centuries, who want to live in state of war forever, kind of like their forefather, this happens when Army run the show...We forget its 21st century not 7th

 

[troodon]

Have been a depression patient since I was 15 years old. Used to be suicidal for a long time. Was looking for ways to end my life on the net. Came to a page where it said that ending one's life is not the end because you'll suffer unimaginable agony in hell for eternity if you die without accepting Lord Jesus in your life. It redirected me to a page about reaching to God by accepting Lord Jesus in my life. From there my journey started.

Good for you man.

Life > Death

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Anything is better than Saudis and Iranians...

Pakistan still uses British political system at face value only, same goes for education system, but in letter and spirit we sold the society to Mullas of 7th Centuries, who want to live in state of war forever, kind of like their forefather, this happens when Army run the show...We forget its 21st century not 7th

But even 21st century nations went through their 7th century phases, I was wondering what the developing world could learn or emulate in their example.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Anything is better than Saudis and Iranians...

Pakistan still uses British political system at face value only, same goes for education system, but in letter and spirit we sold the society to Mullas of 7th Centuries, who want to live in state of war forever, kind of like their forefather, this happens when Army run the show...We forget its 21st century not 7th

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">In 610 Islam gave women right to choose marriage, divorce, own property, inherit, education, & vote—West gave women these rights ~1960ish <a href="https://t.co/U5fpNDPT1A">https://t.co/U5fpNDPT1A</a></p>— Qasim Rashid, Esq. (@MuslimIQ) <a href="https://twitter.com/MuslimIQ/status/876986390290083841">June 20, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[yasir]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">In 610 Islam gave women right to choose marriage, divorce, own property, inherit, education, & vote—West gave women these rights ~1960ish <a href="https://t.co/U5fpNDPT1A">https://t.co/U5fpNDPT1A</a></p>— Qasim Rashid, Esq. (@MuslimIQ) <a href="https://twitter.com/MuslimIQ/status/876986390290083841">June 20, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Don't get me started on Islam and Women rights, they still don't have them, forget about 610 AD... Honor Killing, Vanni (Just Watch Drama Sammi, if you need more info), 2-1 status of Women in judicial system etc, all these values are still held by Conservative Muslim Societies in letter and Spirit...

 

[yasir]

But even 21st century nations went through their 7th century phases, I was wondering what the developing world could learn or emulate in their example.

Well like what we say in Cricket Culture, we were all talking about not playing modern day Cricket, holding on to batting culture of 1980s, change in approach helped us a lot in matter of days...

Its not strategic and tactical issues that needs course correction, its the vision of society that needs to be mould. 7/10 Pakistani I know and meet, they are in love to two things about Pakistan, one is Army and Second is Islam, to me those two are the biggest problem. Unless you know what is the problem, you will never able to fix the real issue. Until Army (which also promotes Religion as source of inspiration) drives the vision of society, nothing will change and we will not make progress.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Don't get me started on Islam and Women rights, they still don't have them, forget about 610 AD... Honor Killing, Vanni (Just Watch Drama Sammi, if you need more info), 2-1 status of Women in judicial system etc, all these values are still held by Conservative Muslim Societies in letter and Spirit...

You can open Honour Killing or Vanni related separate thread. These things have got nothing to do with Islam. They are adulterations.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Well like what we say in Cricket Culture, we were all talking about not playing modern day Cricket, holding on to batting culture of 1980s, change in approach helped us a lot in matter of days...

Its not strategic and tactical issues that needs course correction, its the vision of society that needs to be mould. 7/10 Pakistani I know and meet, they are in love to two things about Pakistan, one is Army and Second is Islam, to me those two are the biggest problem. Unless you know what is the problem, you will never able to fix the real issue. Until Army (which also promotes Religion as source of inspiration) drives the vision of society, nothing will change and we will not make progress.

The problem is, that the army becomes more relevant in times of war rather than peace. The war in Afghanistan has put Pakistanis on the defensive regarding their faith. Even the cricketers these days are all wearing beards and thanking Allah before every answer to a question about the game. It wasn't like this back in the days before 9/11.

Personally I think militant atheism doesn't have much chance of making a dent in religion in Pakistan, if anything it will create an opposite force which will feed off it. Change has to come from within like it did in the countries you admire today. This perception of hostile threat needs to be removed for the army to be neutered. Difficult when we are engaged in a war on terror where the world's biggest powers are stakeholders.

 

[Braveheart]

A good Sikh friend of mine from uni days 20 odd years ago, married his Hindu girlfriend and they have both since converted to Islam and brought their kids up as Muslims, which I thought was pretty unusual.

 

[Ikball]

I dont call it convert but my story goes like I was just normal muslim, even did know about different sects.
Then in my college days due to one friend I was under Ahle-Hadith influence for sometime But I found them very rigid Muslims, not using common sense and issuing Shirk, Biddat fatwas to everyone. Due to their extremism I left them, after I found some good friends practicing Islam the way I thought It should be after reading alot. That makes my interest in religion even more powerfull.

There was phase in my life like bit of Major saab. But with my will power I have pulled out myself from depression.

Now I am not listening to what Shirk/Biddat mulla says, Just trying to act upon Islam avoiding everyone doing controversial stuff. Just trying to make myself a good person. Trying not to do anything bad to anyone and helping others. Thats making my life good for me.

 

[Square Drive]

I dont call it convert but my story goes like I was just normal muslim, even did know about different sects.
Then in my college days due to one friend I was under Ahle-Hadith influence for sometime But I found them very rigid Muslims, not using common sense and issuing Shirk, Biddat fatwas to everyone. Due to their extremism I left them, after I found some good friends practicing Islam the way I thought It should be after reading alot. That makes my interest in religion even more powerfull.

There was phase in my life like bit of Major saab. But with my will power I have pulled out myself from depression.

Now I am not listening to what Shirk/Biddat mulla says, Just trying to act upon Islam avoiding everyone doing controversial stuff. Just trying to make myself a good person. Trying not to do anything bad to anyone and helping others. Thats making my life good for me.

Respect.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

I dont call it convert but my story goes like I was just normal muslim, even did know about different sects.
Then in my college days due to one friend I was under Ahle-Hadith influence for sometime But I found them very rigid Muslims, not using common sense and issuing Shirk, Biddat fatwas to everyone. Due to their extremism I left them, after I found some good friends practicing Islam the way I thought It should be after reading alot. That makes my interest in religion even more powerfull.

There was phase in my life like bit of Major saab. But with my will power I have pulled out myself from depression.

Now I am not listening to what Shirk/Biddat mulla says, Just trying to act upon Islam avoiding everyone doing controversial stuff. Just trying to make myself a good person. Trying not to do anything bad to anyone and helping others. Thats making my life good for me.

So which Sect you opted for finally and nI which sect you were born ? (out of no choice) Since this is conversion thread.

 

[LordEddardStark]

My childhood was slightly different than others as I was exposed to both Sunni and Shia sects from the outset. My father is a devout Sunni whereas my mother comes from a Shia dominant family. My birthplace was notorious in terms of Sunni-Shia clashes and 90s were a pretty violent era in terms of Shia killings and general persecution. Gladly our family had a reading culture and eventually I moved on to study about faith and religious history. Quite frankly, it opened my eyes. The earlier Islamic history has many dark chapters which are hard to justify through any of traditional Scriptures. Now I understand that history is primarily about people and actions of people cannot be accounted to judge principles of religion they conform to yet what I've gathered through my study is that our faith includes many facts relating to personalities and makes those facts an integral part of religion. Our Scriptures are based upon the narrations of the same personalities whose actions do not necessarily paint a positive picture about them and that era. For the same reason I am of the opinion that the entire judicial system that has been based upon such narrations and incidents is heavily flawed and can never be termed as an eternally perfect system.

I accept God as Almighty and consider prophet to be his true messenger as well. I just don't consider the many dogmas attached with the faith to be reflection of true religion. And by dogmas I do not mean the present day Peeri, Mureedi but the ancient ones that are considered part and parcel of religion now.

 

[JimmyGetsBuckets]

So many interesting stories and perspectives. I was born and raised into a Muslim family. I am still Muslim but I think I have slightly different beliefs than conservative Muslims.

 

[Sam18696]

It's hard to share your beliefs here when it feels like you'll be the next target of the blasphemy law.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

My childhood was slightly different than others as I was exposed to both Sunni and Shia sects from the outset. My father is a devout Sunni whereas my mother comes from a Shia dominant family. My birthplace was notorious in terms of Sunni-Shia clashes and 90s were a pretty violent era in terms of Shia killings and general persecution. Gladly our family had a reading culture and eventually I moved on to study about faith and religious history. Quite frankly, it opened my eyes. The earlier Islamic history has many dark chapters which are hard to justify through any of traditional Scriptures. Now I understand that history is primarily about people and actions of people cannot be accounted to judge principles of religion they conform to yet what I've gathered through my study is that our faith includes many facts relating to personalities and makes those facts an integral part of religion. Our Scriptures are based upon the narrations of the same personalities whose actions do not necessarily paint a positive picture about them and that era. For the same reason I am of the opinion that the entire judicial system that has been based upon such narrations and incidents is heavily flawed and can never be termed as an eternally perfect system.

I accept God as Almighty and consider prophet to be his true messenger as well. I just don't consider the many dogmas attached with the faith to be reflection of true religion. And by dogmas I do not mean the present day Peeri, Mureedi but the ancient ones that are considered part and parcel of religion now.

So Sunni History of Events or Shia history of events where do you stand ?

What is your take on Caliphs ? Muttah ? Moharram ? etc.


Did you convert ? What is your religious identity ?


Shouls there be ShiaSunni marriages ? How it goes for next generations (off springs) ? Identity crisis ?

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

It's hard to share your beliefs here when it feels like you'll be the next target of the blasphemy law.

You live in Pakistan ?

 

[Sam18696]

You live in Pakistan ?

Yeah.

 

[Adil_94]

Islam to agnosticism/atheism. Reject all forms of organised religion. But dont rule out the possibility of a higher power but not in the abrahamic sense at all.

 

[Adil_94]

interestingly my mum is a convert to Islam.

 

[yasir]

The problem is, that the army becomes more relevant in times of war rather than peace. The war in Afghanistan has put Pakistanis on the defensive regarding their faith. Even the cricketers these days are all wearing beards and thanking Allah before every answer to a question about the game. It wasn't like this back in the days before 9/11.

Personally I think militant atheism doesn't have much chance of making a dent in religion in Pakistan, if anything it will create an opposite force which will feed off it. Change has to come from within like it did in the countries you admire today. This perception of hostile threat needs to be removed for the army to be neutered. Difficult when we are engaged in a war on terror where the world's biggest powers are stakeholders.

I don't want to distract this thread with going after Pak Amry and their vision. Maybe I need to open a thread dedicated to Amry and what they have been doing in last 30/40 years. One thing is sure their vision is not shaped by 9/11, it goes long before that and lot it is their own ventures and has little to do with external forces.

Atheists are most unorganized people, frankly they care less about Atheists as a group, since there are no common goals as such. You see them online lot more because one thing we all like to do is debate with dogmas of all kinds, this is not completely useless exercise, it does effect people even if they don't felt it right away.

What they care about is more liberal and open cultural development and for that there are many other platforms of art, science, literature and policy front. They are active in those in many shapes and forms. There is a reason 90% of elite scientist are Atheists, similar % of philosophers fall in that category, modern writes/thinkers/scholars have to understand the context and importance of Science as the tool of learning and progress. All those developments are win for Atheists, it's not a cult, who get high on rituals or gather on a particular day and praise supernatural or lack of it. They get satisfied by acceptance of Science, liberalization of society and culture

In Muslim world those ideas are hard to penetrate, which is big loss for those culture and societies, they are missing out of modernizing their thought process, social and intellectual culture, which result in progress and growth of society. Holding on to backward culture is not helping Muslims.

 

[Hamza_]

I don't want to distract this thread with going after Pak Amry and their vision. Maybe I need to open a thread dedicated to Amry and what they have been doing in last 30/40 years. One thing is sure their vision is not shaped by 9/11, it goes long before that and lot it is their own ventures and has little to do with external forces.

Atheists are most unorganized people, frankly they care less about Atheists as a group, since there are no common goals as such. You see them online lot more because one thing we all like to do is debate with dogmas of all kinds, this is not completely useless exercise, it does effect people even if they don't felt it right away.

What they care about is more liberal and open cultural development and for that there are many other platforms of art, science, literature and policy front. They are active in those in many shapes and forms. There is a reason 90% of elite scientist are Atheists, similar % of philosophers fall in that category, modern writes/thinkers/scholars have to understand the context and importance of Science as the tool of learning and progress. All those developments are win for Atheists, it's not a cult, who get high on rituals or gather on a particular day and praise supernatural or lack of it. They get satisfied by acceptance of Science, liberalization of society and culture

In Muslim world those ideas are hard to penetrate, which is big loss for those culture and societies, they are missing out of modernizing their thought process, social and intellectual culture, which result in progress and growth of society. Holding on to backward culture is not helping Muslims.

Yasir Bhai Islam bhi bas naam ka hai Pakistan jessay country main. Corruption, rishwat, jhoot and every such thing is common, Namaz parhne jao masjid khaali milti hai.

Islam shayad blasphemy, zina ya uss cheez tak mehdood hai jispe attention aur tamasha banaya jaa sakay.

 

[yasir]

Yasir Bhai Islam bhi bas naam ka hai Pakistan jessay country main. Corruption, rishwat, jhoot and every such thing is common, Namaz parhne jao masjid khaali milti hai.

Islam shayad blasphemy, zina ya uss cheez tak mehdood hai jispe attention aur tamasha banaya jaa sakay.

This is a very wrong consoling assumption, Islam is thriving in Pakistan as a culture. 7/10 Pakistani I have ever met, anywhere in the world(that includes various places in US, UK, Dubai,Pakistan, Canada etc), they love two things about Pakistan, one is Army and other is Islam. We are running out of ideas as what else to do to make our culture more islamic, maybe next step is ISIS/Taliban style, we are there in many parts of the country anyway...

Many people don't understand the impact of cultural priorities, its sort of lot like difference between climate and weather, one is long term trend other is short term view...You don't study weather as hard as you do climate, that gives you better picture...Similarly, you don't fix corruption(day to day issues) as hard as you fix culture(long term vision of society)...Similar to what Mickey says, building process and culture is important rather than focus on needs of next match and series...

Culturally we are heavily invested in conservative idols of religion and patriotism (aka Army), both of them does not produce anything...Conservatives here in USA and most places in world are also struggling a lot, saving grace here is vibrant and strong liberal community and dominating culture that drives country forward. If you look at any development matrix(education, economy, development etc), difference is glaring between red and blue. There is major cultural war going on between liberals and conservatives in west for 400-500 hundred years, lucky for them, liberals are mostly winning. In our part there are no liberals, iron wall of conservatives is so strong that others cannot penetrate, if you are liberal in muslim culture, you are pretty much out of community, I know this first hand and know many like me. Liberals in general are agent of change, you need that in the team to keep moving forward. Muslims pride in themselves in kicking liberals out of their team, but that is fatal mistake, still paying for it and will do in future as well!!

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I don't want to distract this thread with going after Pak Amry and their vision. Maybe I need to open a thread dedicated to Amry and what they have been doing in last 30/40 years. One thing is sure their vision is not shaped by 9/11, it goes long before that and lot it is their own ventures and has little to do with external forces.

Atheists are most unorganized people, frankly they care less about Atheists as a group, since there are no common goals as such. You see them online lot more because one thing we all like to do is debate with dogmas of all kinds, this is not completely useless exercise, it does effect people even if they don't felt it right away.

What they care about is more liberal and open cultural development and for that there are many other platforms of art, science, literature and policy front. They are active in those in many shapes and forms. There is a reason 90% of elite scientist are Atheists, similar % of philosophers fall in that category, modern writes/thinkers/scholars have to understand the context and importance of Science as the tool of learning and progress. All those developments are win for Atheists, it's not a cult, who get high on rituals or gather on a particular day and praise supernatural or lack of it. They get satisfied by acceptance of Science, liberalization of society and culture

In Muslim world those ideas are hard to penetrate, which is big loss for those culture and societies, they are missing out of modernizing their thought process, social and intellectual culture, which result in progress and growth of society. Holding on to backward culture is not helping Muslims.

My view is that there is nothing like progress in your immediate surroundings which will make people want it for themselves. I always thought that India becoming a superpower would be beneficial to Pakistan as the people would eventually want the same for themselves. But for that you would need to see two things:

1. The wealth spreading throughout the classes in India so that the grinding poverty which everyone still associates with it would be removed.

2. A progressive and liberal govt which encouraged free speech and ideas which would inevitably filter down to the masses.

I'm not really sure either of those two ideals are evident at the moment which means the message of secular progress isn't as impactful as it could be.

 

[Shutdown Corner]

If religion was what is practiced by my family and friends then I would be a Muslim today. But I can't ignore the facts.

Why not apply the same standards to "atheism" as well? There are "bad" atheists out there as well. Maybe its because they dont believe in God...?

 

[Black Zero]

Why not apply the same standards to "atheism" as well? There are "bad" atheists out there as well. Maybe its because they dont believe in God...?

Yes, the holy scripture of atheism taught athiest to do bad things.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Yes, the holy scripture of atheism taught athiest to do bad things.

You don't need holy scriptures to do bad things. Wars are often fought over resources, there's nothing religious about that. Robberies, rapes and murders are also often committed with complete lack of religious motive.

 

[Black Zero]

You don't need holy scriptures to do bad things. Wars are often fought over resources, there's nothing religious about that. Robberies, rapes and murders are also often committed with complete lack of religious motive.

But religion makes such things kosher.