Arab racism against fellow Muslims

[rickroll]

Context: I have a good friend who is a muslim from Kerala and has been in the US for decades now. His community is the oldest muslim community of South Asia (please look up Mappila muslims for an interesting read -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mappila_Muslims). He is an incredibly smart and kind person, our children are all similar ages so our families spend time together during some weekend days. I recently watched a movie from Kerala in his place (I forgot the name of the movie) and it was about the exploitation of middle east immigrant workers through the Kafala system.

More on the issue: While it was just a movie (well made one I might add), it got me curious and started discussing more about this with my friend. He shared many harrowing racist incidents from his own circle of friends and family, racist incidents by Arab muslims on fellow South Asian muslims. Besides this anecdotal account, I have seen and faced flippant behavior from Arabs myself, and have heard vile behaviors towards Pakistani workers from my extended family. My best friend (also a Pakistani American) and I got into serious fights during my high school with Arab kids who openly called us "Pakistani dogs" and would get into detail of how they had Pakistanis as slaves. I could not grasp the origins of their visceral hatred then, but I started understanding later on. This got me curious (dare I say also agitated) enough to explore more articles and research papers to understand the extent of this hate perversion by the Arabs and man it is shocking. I'm attaching some of the papers I came across for anyone interested and in the spirit of creating a discussion of substance.

My questions/frustrations: Islam preaches equality and nobody can dispute that. How are these vile creatures making peace with their racism while also offering their daily prayers? So we can say humans can be flawed at individual level and the system as a whole should be closer to idealism. Many of the GCC countries are Islamic by constitution, then how do they have a state sanctioned slavery system (Kafala) that goes against the very tenets of equality and creates lawful slavery? How do they (Arabs and Arab nations) then posture towards other muslim nations that they are the arbiters of everything about Islam and expect us to bow down to them? I admit, I have looked down on Hindus due to their religion having a fabric of inequality (caste system) but it is painful and frustrating to see that contemporary Islam has the same malaise with the Arabs looking down on all of us here as "below them sub-humans". This is increasingly making me ask myself if I have any right to critique on the caste system of Hindus when Islam today has such serious fissures due to such corrupted practices.

Reference Links

1. Recruitment of migrant workers -- https://www.ilo.org/sites/default/f...-beirut/documents/publication/wcms_519913.pdf
2. Migration in the Middle East -- https://www.iom.int/sites/g/files/t.../mainsite/policy_and_research/gcim/rs/RS5.pdf
3. 2020 UN Report on Racism (touching on this Middle East racism) -- https://undocs.org/en/A/HRC/44/57/Add.1
4. Human smuggling in the Middle East -- https://agsiw.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Ubaydli_ONLINE_edits.pdf
5. Institutionalized Middle East slavery by withholding passports -- https://www.stopslaverynetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/032.-IHRB_Fees-and-IDs-Report1.pdf

 

[sweep_shot]

Not all Arabs are racists. I have had some cool Arab friends.

I think generalization is not good.

Racists are present in all countries. Many desis are racists too. Many blacks are racists. Many East Asians are racists. Many whites and Latinos are racists. It is not an Arab problem; it is a human problem.

 

[rickroll]

Not all Arabs are racists. I have had some cool Arab friends.

I think generalization is not good.

Racists are present in all countries. Many desis are racists too. Many blacks are racists. Many East Asians are racists. Many whites and Latinos are racists. It is not an Arab problem; it is a human problem.

Sorry this is not just a simplistic response but a cop out one. Maybe you do not want to speak against any muslim nation and are trying to justify or cover up atrocities? Your point is some anecdotal cop out ("there are good and bad people everywhere) while I have cited research papers from valid sources.

Different groups of people having racist and non-racist ones is an obvious fact that everyone is aware of. But some groups have a much higher percentage as a result of generational institutionalized racism. You have multi-generational exploitation of a group of people who are poorer, darker (add colorism to the equation), always look up at you for mercy, you (you or your forefathers) hold the power to make/break their lives, you have LEGAL protection for their modern day slavery, you also hold a (flawed) religious superiority over them ... your opinions are influenced by what you grow up with at this point and you will be more racist than others.

1. Have you been to the middle east and see how they treat you before they realize you are an American? I have and it is disgusting. My family has some Pathan mix but it is mostly Punjabi+Sindhi. I am clearly American once I start speaking. Until I speak or show my US passport for any requirements, their behavior towards me has been night and day. Not once or twice but EVERY time (I have traveled to the middle east 8-10 times during my consulting days).
2. Have you spoken with people who have directly suffered (suffering) either themselves or their family members by Arabs in the middle east? I have.
3. As a percentage of population, which part of the world has a higher percentage looking down on us South Asians - Americans, Latin Americans, Western Europeans, Eastern Europeans, Africans or Arabs? Just be honest without your religious lens in play in order to not offend the self-perceived "arbiters of Islam"?

Again - I do not want to add my anecdotal points and hence I have added as many valid research papers as possible here.

When it comes to study of groups of people, it is not all or nothing. Everyone knows not ALL people in a group are good or bad. That is not the point and we are not in kindergarten. It is about probabilistic percentages. Which population group has a higher percentage (and thus probability) or a certain action and then, the reason why.

If you can understand it better with simpler logic then think about this - If 8 out of 10 of your high school friends watch soccer and 8 out 10 of your undergrad friends watch cricket. You now want to watch a game of cricket and you cannot ask any individual but must only go with one group or another without knowing what they will do. You are better off going with your undergrad friends from a sheer probabilistic viewpoint, right? This is how it is when people's lives and interactions are affected by one population group or another.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Two questions

Who told you this - "How do they (Arabs and Arab nations) then posture towards other muslim nations that they are the arbiters of everything about Islam and expect us to bow down to them?"

Secondly would you be happy with Kafala system if it was not applied to Muslims?

 

[rickroll]

Two questions

Who told you this - "How do they (Arabs and Arab nations) then posture towards other muslim nations that they are the arbiters of everything about Islam and expect us to bow down to them?"

Secondly would you be happy with Kafala system if it was not applied to Muslims?

Arabs acting like arbiters of Islam, my observation and from what I hear (anecdotal I know) due to Mecca and Medina being in their lands and them being the original adherents of the faith.

Secondly would you be happy with Kafala system if it was not applied to Muslims?

No, I would not be happy with the Kafala system for anyone. It is modern day slavery.

 

[Varun]

For the Gulf Arabs, it's pan Gulf bonds first, pan Arab bonds second, and pan Muslim bonds last.

As it should be.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Arabs acting like arbiters of Islam, my observation and from what I hear (anecdotal I know) due to Mecca and Medina being in their lands and them being the original adherents of the faith.



No, I would not be happy with the Kafala system for anyone. It is modern day slavery.

They don't really behave like arbiters. Most of their governments are openly unislamic. There is no expectation from them for you to follow them on any religious matter.

In fact visit any of the mosques across Arabia and you will be welcomed with open arms and given hugs.

If your gripe with Kafala system is nothing to do with it being exerted on Muslims then you should ask your title in the OP to be altered to just a general "Arab racism" thread.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

I will just add a little thing. Generally when I have questioned some of my Muslim guys " Why was God's word was in Arabic?"
They quote about the eloquence of Arabic as being the perfect leanguage and all, even though they don't know any word of Arabic. If the idea of Arabic being superior to other languages is so embedded. Its not hard to believe that Arabs whose mother tongue is Arabic feel themselves superior to other Muslims.

also add the mandatory requirement of Hajj. Every Muslim has to visit Saudi for the holy pilgrimage. Saudis dont have to do anything with other places.
and finally ... simplest of all.. the OIL MONEY!

 

[Local.Dada]

Turkish, Iranians, Arabs seem to have ethnic/national pride that equals or maybe in some cases exceeds religion. On the flip side I have seen these utopian arguments of ummah and one Muslim nation from Muslims from poor counties with 0 prospects especially from Indian subcontinent, including Indian Muslims. You don’t need data or research for that, couple of eyes, having a minimum average IQ and not having any clinical brain issues and speaking to people is enough for that assessment. Exceptions exist obviously.

 

[Bhaijaan]

When I talked to my Pakistani cab driver in Jeddah who was a jolly good fellow by the way, he told me that Saudis marry beautiful women from Jordan, Egypt, Palestine etc. But it’s very unlikely for an Arab to marry Pakistani or Bangladeshi. Especially if it’s a woman.

But in Riyadh I have a Pakistani friend who has two wives and one of them is Saudi. He didn’t open up about it initially but then he said he has a Kuwaiti passport so it helped him bag this rishta.

 

[aboveandbeyond]

When I talked to my Pakistani cab driver in Jeddah who was a jolly good fellow by the way, he told me that Saudis marry beautiful women from Jordan, Egypt, Palestine etc. But it’s very unlikely for an Arab to marry Pakistani or Bangladeshi. Especially if it’s a woman.

But in Riyadh I have a Pakistani friend who has two wives and one of them is Saudi. He didn’t open up about it initially but then he said he has a Kuwaiti passport so it helped him bag this rishta.

I know a few of my fellow British Pakistani friends have married ladies who are ethnically Arabs, and have no issues at all.

In fact it's same with ethnically English girls, who are married with British Pakistani men.

 

[ElRaja]

its more about class than race, whether you are arab, desi, persian or turk, if you have similar income levels, there is far more commonality than differences, this is obvious in the UK, but if you expect millionaire arabs to have equitable relations with immigrants who are their workers, then that is not gonna happen.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I know a few of my fellow British Pakistani friends have married ladies who are ethnically Arabs, and have no issues at all.

In fact it's same with ethnically English girls, who are married with British Pakistani men.

I know of two Pakistani guys who married Arab women, and one Pakistani girl who married an Arab man. But since I am not close to any of these I can't really say how it went down with their families and social circles. My guess is that because we are all in a non-Muslim country as minorities the cross cultural gap is probably a lot easier to navigate.

I've never personally experienced racism from Arabs, but that's in this country where they are also a minority. I can imagine low skilled workers from Asia getting treated like crap in the UAE though...but then I suspect they probably get treated like crap at home as well by high caste desis with fair and lovely skin.

 

[aboveandbeyond]

I know of two Pakistani guys who married Arab women, and one Pakistani girl who married an Arab man. But since I am not close to any of these I can't really say how it went down with their families and social circles. My guess is that because we are all in a non-Muslim country as minorities the cross cultural gap is probably a lot easier to navigate.

I've never personally experienced racism from Arabs, but that's in this country where they are also a minority. I can imagine low skilled workers from Asia getting treated like crap in the UAE though...but then I suspect they probably get treated like crap at home as well by high caste desis with fair and lovely skin.

Yes. Fair points.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Turkish, Iranians, Arabs seem to have ethnic/national pride that equals or maybe in some cases exceeds religion. On the flip side I have seen these utopian arguments of ummah and one Muslim nation from Muslims from poor counties with 0 prospects especially from Indian subcontinent, including Indian Muslims. You don’t need data or research for that, couple of eyes, having a minimum average IQ and not having any clinical brain issues and speaking to people is enough for that assessment. Exceptions exist obviously.

Be honest. How much time have you spent in those countries amongst those people?

 

[aboveandbeyond]

Turkish, Iranians, Arabs seem to have ethnic/national pride that equals or maybe in some cases exceeds religion. On the flip side I have seen these utopian arguments of ummah and one Muslim nation from Muslims from poor counties with 0 prospects especially from Indian subcontinent, including Indian Muslims. You don’t need data or research for that, couple of eyes, having a minimum average IQ and not having any clinical brain issues and speaking to people is enough for that assessment. Exceptions exist obviously.

Nothing surprises me with hindutwa extremists.

 

[rickroll]

I know of two Pakistani guys who married Arab women, and one Pakistani girl who married an Arab man. But since I am not close to any of these I can't really say how it went down with their families and social circles. My guess is that because we are all in a non-Muslim country as minorities the cross cultural gap is probably a lot easier to navigate.

I've never personally experienced racism from Arabs, but that's in this country where they are also a minority. I can imagine low skilled workers from Asia getting treated like crap in the UAE though...but then I suspect they probably get treated like crap at home as well by high caste desis with fair and lovely skin.

Reality is that those of us South Asians from the west also get treated differently (read worse) by the Arabs unless we start speaking with our western accents or flash our passports in their view.

 

[rickroll]

They don't really behave like arbiters. Most of their governments are openly unislamic. There is no expectation from them for you to follow them on any religious matter.

In fact visit any of the mosques across Arabia and you will be welcomed with open arms and given hugs.

If your gripe with Kafala system is nothing to do with it being exerted on Muslims then you should ask your title in the OP to be altered to just a general "Arab racism" thread.

If your gripe with Kafala system is nothing to do with it being exerted on Muslims then you should ask your title in the OP to be altered to just a general "Arab racism" thread.

To clarify - my issue is general Arab racism even towards other muslims (to avoid any digressions along the lines of "it is not racism but their superiority about Islam being the true faith" etc). I mentioned things like Kafala because over many past decades (or generations dare I say) it has created an institutionalized sense of superiority in them over those with backgrounds upon whom they exert their Kafala system. Mind you, I'm saying this to clarify that their racism is not just on the poorer immigrants but anyone and everyone who is from that ethnic group. Governments of Pakistan or India or Bangladesh bending over backwards to accommodate wealthy Sheikhs does not help the cause either.

 

[Local.Dada]

Reality is that those of us South Asians from the west also get treated differently (read worse) by the Arabs unless we start speaking with our western accents or flash our passports in their view.

From personal experience Arabs, Turks at least in the USA consider themselves white. In fact unless you read their name or they explicitly mention, they pretty much act white.

While a Subcontinent person will blush and it will make his/her day if you call him Persian/Arab/Turk, the opposite side will feel insulted.

 

[rickroll]

From personal experience Arabs, Turks at least in the USA consider themselves white. In fact unless you read their name or they explicitly mention, they pretty much act white.

While a Subcontinent person will blush and it will make his/her day if you call him Persian/Arab/Turk, the opposite side will feel insulted.

I have seen this too. Disgusting wannabe behavior.

 

[sweep_shot]

I personally do not believe Arabs are generally racists. The racism OP is referring to is present in all countries probably.

Arabs are straightforward. If you do not behave like a fruitcake, you shouldn't have any issue. I have friends and family in gulf states. Most of them have positive things to say.

 

[rickroll]

I personally do not believe Arabs are generally racists. The racism OP is referring to is present in all countries probably.

Arabs are straightforward. If you do not behave like a fruitcake, you shouldn't have any issue. I have friends and family in gulf states. Most of them have positive things to say.

Arab racism is so prevalent that an entire Wikipedia article exists with so many source citations underneath.

Racism in the Arab world - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Reality is that those of us South Asians from the west also get treated differently (read worse) by the Arabs unless we start speaking with our western accents or flash our passports in their view.

I'm not arguing that might be your reality, I just said I didn't experience it when I was in the UAE. But then I think appearances has a big effect on this. If someone looks like Imran Khan he probably gets treated differently to someone who looks like Sarfaraz Nawaz. Eastern people in general tend to be more sniffy about this stuff than westerners where we are a lot less prejudiced.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

I'm not arguing that might be your reality, I just said I didn't experience it when I was in the UAE. But then I think appearances has a big effect on this. If someone looks like Imran Khan he probably gets treated differently to someone who looks like Sarfaraz Nawaz. Eastern people in general tend to be more sniffy about this stuff than westerners where we are a lot less prejudiced.

So your lighter skin tone saves you from racist treatment and hence racism is only the reality of others!!
Appearance having a role in different treatment of people is the major characteristic of racism, sir!!

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

So your lighter skin tone saves you from racist treatment and hence racism is only the reality of others!!
Appearance having a role in different treatment of people is the major characteristic of racism, sir!!

I didn't say I have a lighter skin tone, I specifically used Imran Khan as a neutral example to make this non-personal.

And yes, I know how racisms works, that is the point actually.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

I didn't say I have a lighter skin tone, I specifically used Imran Khan as a neutral example to make this non-personal.

And yes, I know how racisms works, that is the point actually.

Please refer to the post where you use the words "your reality" . That's a very poor choice of words.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Please refer to the post where you use the words "your reality" . That's a very poor choice of words.

That depends what inference you took from it. I have no idea what you might be imagining, but your reality quite simply means the OP's personal experience was not shared by me. But maybe you know better?

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

That depends what inference you took from it. I have no idea what you might be imagining, but your reality quite simply means the OP's personal experience was not shared by me. But maybe you know better?

I have seen mostly bigoted commentators use terms like " your reality" " i see no color" to demean and devalue the suffering or the discrimination topic at hand. It is the vocabulary of bigots sir, you might not have meant it but thats how it gets used in social discourse.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I have seen mostly bigoted commentators use terms like " your reality" " i see no color" to demean and devalue the suffering or the discrimination topic at hand. It is the vocabulary of bigots sir, you might not have meant it but thats how it gets used in social discourse.

I doubt it will have occurred to you, but it might be it may be I am widening the discussion, you just didn't realise it. Although I am sure your desire to discuss Arab racism is not tinged with bigotry at all.

 

[Red-Indian]

How do you guys manage to interact so much with Arabs? Every time I've been there both for business and pleasure (mainly in Dubai to be fair), I've interacted with Indians, Pakistanis, North Africans, Filipinos...even Brits, French etc. hardly any Arabs. In fact, the only time I've actually seen Arabs outside of Immigration, they seem to be browsing the expensive stores in the Malls. Do they actually do any work?

 

[Local.Dada]

How do you guys manage to interact so much with Arabs? Every time I've been there both for business and pleasure (mainly in Dubai to be fair), I've interacted with Indians, Pakistanis, North Africans, Filipinos...even Brits, French etc. hardly any Arabs. In fact, the only time I've actually seen Arabs outside of Immigration, they seem to be browsing the expensive stores in the Malls. Do they actually do any work?

I don’t know your line of work but if you work in a corporate for many years and live in a multi cultural country especially like USA you will run into a lot of different ethnicities over time. Many times some stereotypes are broken but many are also validated.

Obviously going to a touristy area will not give you the right take. So going to a mall will not teach you anything:

Plenty of things aid that- reading newspapers, interacting with people etc also play a part.

 

[sweep_shot]

How do you guys manage to interact so much with Arabs? Every time I've been there both for business and pleasure (mainly in Dubai to be fair), I've interacted with Indians, Pakistanis, North Africans, Filipinos...even Brits, French etc. hardly any Arabs. In fact, the only time I've actually seen Arabs outside of Immigration, they seem to be browsing the expensive stores in the Malls. Do they actually do any work?

Well, I don't just travel for work/pleasure purpose. Toronto is my home (living here for almost 20 years).

Also, those of us who are practicing Muslims go to mosques regularly. Over there, you get to meet Muslims from all over the world (including Arabs). Toronto also has a lot of Arabs. My local shawarma store is owned by a Palestinian guy.

Also, not all Arabs visit expensive stores. LOL. Not all are rich.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Islam started in Arabia and holy Prophet was an Arab and the holy book is in Arabic. So there will always be special affinity for Muslims from South Asia towards Arabs.
OTOH, South Asian Muslims were conquered people. They will never be equals to Arabs. Only on paper they are equal. Also, the Subcontinent Muslims look like fellow laborers from Hindus/Christians/Buddhists. Arabs cannot tell them apart. The respect will not be there. Just like anywhere in the world, low class and low level workers will be treated poorly.

 

[Champ_Pal]

How do you guys manage to interact so much with Arabs? Every time I've been there both for business and pleasure (mainly in Dubai to be fair), I've interacted with Indians, Pakistanis, North Africans, Filipinos...even Brits, French etc. hardly any Arabs. In fact, the only time I've actually seen Arabs outside of Immigration, they seem to be browsing the expensive stores in the Malls. Do they actually do any work?

In UAE, majority population are migrant workers from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Philippines. Only 10% of UAE population are actual Arabs. 90% of the population are expats. The chance of meeting an actual Arab are pretty slim unless you are well educated and have a high paying job.

I am sure the situation is not much different in countries like Qatar, Oman, Bahrain etc. The climate in Arabia could never support high population of locals.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Islam started in Arabia and holy Prophet was an Arab and the holy book is in Arabic. So there will always be special affinity for Muslims from South Asia towards Arabs.
OTOH, South Asian Muslims were conquered people. They will never be equals to Arabs. Only on paper they are equal. Also, the Subcontinent Muslims look like fellow laborers from Hindus/Christians/Buddhists. Arabs cannot tell them apart. The respect will not be there. Just like anywhere in the world, low class and low level workers will be treated poorly.

Just about all of South Asia was conquered as far as I know, and they would have been hindus at the time.

 

[Local.Dada]

Just about all of South Asia was conquered as far as I know, and they would have been hindus at the time.

Iran, Persian, Arabs have conquered lot of areas in Asia, Africa and Europe. There are stories of Hindu kings expanding too, Europe has the bragging right in the modern era . Fair play if you want to take pride in such things.

However subcontinent Muslims have not ruled anything. Since 1947 they were given 2-3 countries to run and they messed it up too.

So only glory is attaching themselves to actual achievers. I have seen brown immigrants take pride in British colonialism too. Funniest thing ever is some cobbler in Karachi or a fisherman in Bangladesh or some kabab shop owner in Bradford telling Hindus how their ancestors ruled over Hindus, some of them who can trace their lineage back to 2000+ years and have kept their culture, religion intact while adapting modern education etc.

That’s the issue, no one has issues with someone practicing spiritual aspects of Islam in their own privacy or designated places of worship.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Iran, Persian, Arabs have conquered lot of areas in Asia, Africa and Europe. There are stories of Hindu kings expanding too, Europe has the bragging right in the modern era . Fair play if you want to take pride in such things.

However subcontinent Muslims have not ruled anything. Since 1947 they were given 2-3 countries to run and they messed it up too.

So only glory is attaching themselves to actual achievers. I have seen brown immigrants take pride in British colonialism too. Funniest thing ever is some cobbler in Karachi or a fisherman in Bangladesh or some kabab shop owner in Bradford telling Hindus how their ancestors ruled over Hindus, some of them who can trace their lineage back to 2000+ years and have kept their culture, religion intact while adapting modern education etc.

That’s the issue, no one has issues with someone practicing spiritual aspects of Islam in their own privacy or designated places of worship.

I wasn't taking pride in anything, just making a small correction to the narrative your compatriot had made. But thanks for the essay, quite a lot to unpick there.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Just about all of South Asia was conquered as far as I know, and they would have been hindus at the time.

It was not Arabs that actually conquered Subcontinent. They only had their presence for a few decades in Sindh. Majority of people of modern day Afghanistan, Pakistan, India and Bangladesh remained Hindus, Buddhists and Jains after the initial Arab conquest of Sindh. It was not until Turkic conquests starting around 11th century AD that there were mass conversions to Islam.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

It was not Arabs that actually conquered Subcontinent. They only had their presence for a few decades in Sindh. Majority of people of modern day Afghanistan, Pakistan, India and Bangladesh remained Hindus, Buddhists and Jains after the initial Arab conquest of Sindh. It was not until Turkic conquests starting around 11th century AD that there were mass conversions to Islam.

I am not arguing who conquered, this was your assertion that South Asian Muslims were conquered, I just pointed out just about all of South Asia was conquered, and most were hindus at the time, not Muslims.

 

[rickroll]

It was not Arabs that actually conquered Subcontinent. They only had their presence for a few decades in Sindh. Majority of people of modern day Afghanistan, Pakistan, India and Bangladesh remained Hindus, Buddhists and Jains after the initial Arab conquest of Sindh. It was not until Turkic conquests starting around 11th century AD that there were mass conversions to Islam.

Interesting. I wonder why the Arabs never tried to convert the South Asian Hindus but the Turkic conquerors did so.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Just like anywhere in the world, low class and low level workers will be treated poorly.

This thing has nothing to do with Islam. There is no racism in Islam based on gender, race, color, class, level, Whatever.

If Arabs are classifying people based on their level then it is racism and it not appreciated.

 

[Red-Indian]

I don’t know your line of work but if you work in a corporate for many years and live in a multi cultural country especially like USA you will run into a lot of different ethnicities over time. Many times some stereotypes are broken but many are also validated.

Obviously going to a touristy area will not give you the right take. So going to a mall will not teach you anything:

Plenty of things aid that- reading newspapers, interacting with people etc also play a part.

I exaggerate. I spent a fair bit of time in M&A in my 30s and we supported quite a few deals in the Middle East...again mainly Dubai. Most of time the working with employees in organisations over there even at a fairly senior level was with expats - Indians, Europeans etc. We did meet with a few local Arabs owners and top executives from across the Gulf but to be fair, I didn't sense any overt racism and I'm no Shah Rukh Khan I assure you. They seemed more like rubber stamps...a little lost in the environment we were in

 

[IndoorCricket]

This thing has nothing to do with Islam. There is no racism in Islam based on gender, race, color, class, level, Whatever.

If Arabs are classifying people based on their level then it is racism and it not appreciated.

Isn't there a concept of Kaffir?

 

[BouncerGuy]

Isn't there a concept of Kaffir?

There is a concept of Kaafir but this thread is about arabs and their racist thinking.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Interesting. I wonder why the Arabs never tried to convert the South Asian Hindus but the Turkic conquerors did so.

Arabs never ventured into the heartland of India. They conquered Sindh, converted a few and then went back to their homeland. There was a period of lull for 200 years. Later it was the Turks who ventured deep into the Indian subcontinent and stayed there.

Turks were expansionists on steroids. They also occupied and ruled Persia, Afghanistan and Arabia.

Umayyads tried hard to depose Hindu/Buddhist kingdoms of Afghanistan and North West Pakistan. They had limited success. But the Turk Shahi and Hindu Shahi's came back to power once again once the Arabs left. It was under the leadership of the Turks(newly converted to Islam) Ghaznavi that destroyed and conquered Hindu Shahi's of Afg and NW Pakistan. He firmly established the Ghanavid empire. Under his rule, Most of the people of NW Pakistan and Afghanistan converted to Islam. His success and plunder encouraged further conquests by people from central asia and persia.

 

[rickroll]

I exaggerate. I spent a fair bit of time in M&A in my 30s and we supported quite a few deals in the Middle East...again mainly Dubai. Most of time the working with employees in organisations over there even at a fairly senior level was with expats - Indians, Europeans etc. We did meet with a few local Arabs owners and top executives from across the Gulf but to be fair, I didn't sense any overt racism and I'm no Shah Rukh Khan I assure you. They seemed more like rubber stamps...a little lost in the environment we were in

Same here. I was with an MBB with M&A and post merger integrations, then transitioned to a mid-market private equity shop that initially had deals in the middle east and pulled back later on. I had quite a few trips to the middle east back then thanks to this line of work. I can attest that I witnessed multiple racist comments or jibes from local Arabs until they heard me speak or interacted with me at work place.

 

[sweep_shot]

Isn't there a concept of Kaffir?

Kafir means disbeliever. It has nothing to do with race.

In Islam, all races are equal.

 

[rickroll]

Kafir means disbeliever. It has nothing to do with race.

In Islam, all races are equal.

Arabs certainly don't think so and they consider themselves true "muslims".

 

[sweep_shot]

Arabs certainly don't think so and they consider themselves true "muslims".

I guess that's your interpretation regarding Arabs.

But, Islamic position is all races are equal.

Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said, “O people, verily your Lord is One and your father is one. Verily there is no superiority of an Arab over a non-Arab or of a non-Arab over an Arab, or of a red man over a black man, or of a black man over a red man, except in terms of taqwa. Have I conveyed the message?”

Taqwa means piety.

 

[sweep_shot]

Arabs certainly don't think so and they consider themselves true "muslims".

Most Muslims in the world are non-Arabs. Islam doesn't say Islam belongs to Arabs only. Islam is for whole of humanity.

A good Muslim is someone who follows Quran and Sunnah. Not what Arabs (or any other group) do.

 

[rickroll]

Most Muslims in the world are non-Arabs. Islam doesn't say Islam belongs to Arabs only. Islam is for whole of humanity.

A good Muslim is someone who follows Quran and Sunnah. Not what Arabs (or any other group) do.

Dude, this thread is not about Islam and why would I say anything against Islam? That would be akin to insulting myself or m family. Most of us here know what true Islam is and do not need the regurgitation of the obvious.

This is about Arabs who claim themselves to be muslims but are acting against the tenets of Islam.

 

[sweep_shot]

Dude, this thread is not about Islam and why would I say anything against Islam? That would be akin to insulting myself or m family. Most of us here know what true Islam is and do not need the regurgitation of the obvious.

This is about Arabs who claim themselves to be muslims but are acting against the tenets of Islam.

OK.

Racist Arabs are obviously not following Islam correctly. It doesn't really matter what they call themselves.

 

[Varun]

Most Muslims in the world are non-Arabs. Islam doesn't say Islam belongs to Arabs only. Islam is for whole of humanity.

A good Muslim is someone who follows Quran and Sunnah. Not what Arabs (or any other group) do.

Arab culture dominates Islam. Muslims have to follow a book called the Quran, which is written in Arabic, an Arab language.
Muslims have to pray 4 times a day pointing towards Mecca, an Arab city. Muslims with means have to visit Mecca/Medina once in their lives, which are cities in Arabia. Muslim women are encouraged to cover their faces with things like the Niqab, which are Arab items of clothing.

 

[sweep_shot]

Arab culture dominates Islam. Muslims have to follow a book called the Quran, which is written in Arabic, an Arab language.
Muslims have to pray 4 times a day pointing towards Mecca, an Arab city. Muslims with means have to visit Mecca/Medina once in their lives, which are cities in Arabia. Muslim women are encouraged to cover their faces with things like the Niqab, which are Arab items of clothing.

You completely missed the point of my post.

BTW, Muslims have to pray 5 times. Not 4.

Also, I am definitely attracted to Arab culture (more so than my Bangladeshi culture). As a matter of fact, I don't celebrate any Bangladeshi event but I celebrate the two Eids. I try to follow prophet Muhammad (PBUH) to the best of my ability.

 

[HalBass9]

Arab culture dominates Islam. Muslims have to follow a book called the Quran, which is written in Arabic, an Arab language.
Muslims have to pray 4 times a day pointing towards Mecca, an Arab city. Muslims with means have to visit Mecca/Medina once in their lives, which are cities in Arabia. Muslim women are encouraged to cover their faces with things like the Niqab, which are Arab items of clothing.

You are confusing culture and religion.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Dude, this thread is not about Islam and why would I say anything against Islam? That would be akin to insulting myself or m family. Most of us here know what true Islam is and do not need the regurgitation of the obvious.

This is about Arabs who claim themselves to be muslims but are acting against the tenets of Islam.

Do you think Arabs are more racist than other nations? Are they more racist than Pakistanis for example?

 

[HalBass9]

Arab culture dominates Islam. Muslims have to follow a book called the Quran, which is written in Arabic, an Arab language.
Muslims have to pray 4 times a day pointing towards Mecca, an Arab city. Muslims with means have to visit Mecca/Medina once in their lives, which are cities in Arabia. Muslim women are encouraged to cover their faces with things like the Niqab, which are Arab items of clothing.

As a Muslim, I do not necessarily celebrate Arab culture. I do not speak Arabic, dress in traditional Arab attire, or adopt Arab customs. I practice my faith as a Muslim, just like billions of other Muslims around the world. As a Pakistani, I celebrate Pakistani culture, which closely resembles Indian culture, as evidenced by the similarities between Pakistani and Indian weddings.

 

[Varun]

BTW, Muslims have to pray 5 times. Not 4.

I stand corrected.

Also, I am definitely attracted to Arab culture (more so than my Bangladeshi culture). As a matter of fact, I don't celebrate any Bangladeshi event but I celebrate the two Eids. I try to follow prophet Muhammad (PBUH) to the best of my ability.

That's all very well and proves my point that Islam is all one way traffic to Arabia.

You are confusing culture and religion.

No I'm not. I have spoken about the Quran, Mecca and Medina, and praying multiple times a day - all religion.

 

[sweep_shot]

That's all very well and proves my point that Islam is all one way traffic to Arabia.

Yes. But, I was talking about something different.

There are more non-Arab followers of Islam than there are Arabs.

You confused Arab culture with religion of Islam.

 

[HalBass9]

No I'm not. I have spoken about the Quran, Mecca and Medina, and praying multiple times a day - all religion.

Praying multiple times a day is not 'Arab', it is Islam.

Most Abrahamic religion are from that part of the world.

Other than praying in Arabic nothing is required to resemble Arab culture in Islam.

For example, Islam dress code is, 'How' to dress, not 'what' to dress.

 

[Varun]

Praying multiple times a day is not 'Arab', it is Islam.

Please re-read my post: "Muslims have to pray 5 times a day pointing towards Mecca, an Arab city".

 

[HalBass9]

Please re-read my post: "Muslims have to pray 5 times a day pointing towards Mecca, an Arab city".

I have read your post, but I am still trying to understand how it suggests that I resemble or have adopted Arab culture as a Muslim?

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Arab culture dominates Islam. Muslims have to follow a book called the Quran, which is written in Arabic, an Arab language.
Muslims have to pray 4 times a day pointing towards Mecca, an Arab city. Muslims with means have to visit Mecca/Medina once in their lives, which are cities in Arabia. Muslim women are encouraged to cover their faces with things like the Niqab, which are Arab items of clothing.

so what if arabia is heavily involved in shaping Islam? I doubt any of the muslims dislike going to the pilgrimage to Makkah and Medina or praying towards our Kaaba. That doesn't make Arabs superior or give them license to discriminate against the others.
Jerusalem is very dear to not just Jews but Christians too. In fact, Assyriac region is dear to all three abrahamic faiths. A lot of Jews in Israel are also known to bear contempt towards Jews who do not ascribe to their Zionistic views.

I am sure India would be very dear to Hindus as well. Nankana sahib is dear to Sikhs as well.

What's the point here?

Let followers of every religion bear closeness to whichever place their religion drives them to or do you get extra points for holding them in contempt for that?

 

[sweep_shot]

Indians have this weird fetish with nationalism. They try to understand the entire world through the lense of nationalism.

What they don't understand is Islam doesn't work like that. There is nothing called Arab Islam, Pakistani Islam, or Indonesian Islam. There is only one Islam and that is followed by Muslims worldwide.

Practicing Islam doesn't mean following Arabs (which @Varun was insinuating). Islam is a religion. Arabs are an ethnic group.

 

[rickroll]

Do you think Arabs are more racist than other nations? Are they more racist than Pakistanis for example?

Towards South Asians? Yes Arabs are much more racist because it is not just cultural but systemic (legal and political). When racism is systemic it is more deep seated and takes much longer to get cleared.

No, Pakistanis are definitely not as racist as Arabs are. Most Pakistanis get aggressive or offended towards other people only when there is a perceived insult to Islam. Otherwise Pakistanis are welcoming warm people.

 

[topspin]

Some of my best friends happen to be Kuwaitis and in Sha Allah we’ll be going on holiday together very soon.

I don’t even speak Arabic, yet they’ve never made me feel an outsider.

As @sweep_shot mentioned, this is a broad generalisation based on a few bad personal experiences from the OP. At the same time I respect that we can only go by what we’ve experienced, so these limited experiences can seem “enough to go by” to shape up our perceptions.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Towards South Asians? Yes Arabs are much more racist because it is not just cultural but systemic (legal and political). When racism is systemic it is more deep seated and takes much longer to get cleared.

No, Pakistanis are definitely not as racist as Arabs are. Most Pakistanis get aggressive or offended towards other people only when there is a perceived insult to Islam. Otherwise Pakistanis are welcoming warm people.

Racism can be directed towards different races, south asians aren't the only victims. Black people have suffered, East Asians quite visibly suffer it, and if you ask Bangladeshis, Pakistanis were racist towards them and that was a big part of the reason the East/West Pakistan idea failed.

So I'm sure Arabs are just as capable of racism as anyone else, but we probably should look at the specific reasons why they are particularly racist according to some South Asians.

 

[Bhaijaan]

How do you guys manage to interact so much with Arabs? Every time I've been there both for business and pleasure (mainly in Dubai to be fair), I've interacted with Indians, Pakistanis, North Africans, Filipinos...even Brits, French etc. hardly any Arabs. In fact, the only time I've actually seen Arabs outside of Immigration, they seem to be browsing the expensive stores in the Malls. Do they actually do any work?

Or be chilling at a cafe sipping coffee at 10 pm in the night. Yalla habibi

 

[Red-Indian]

Towards South Asians? Yes Arabs are much more racist because it is not just cultural but systemic (legal and political). When racism is systemic it is more deep seated and takes much longer to get cleared.

No, Pakistanis are definitely not as racist as Arabs are. Most Pakistanis get aggressive or offended towards other people only when there is a perceived insult to Islam. Otherwise Pakistanis are welcoming warm people.

Honestly, I don't see Arab attitudes as racism but more as nouveau riche snobbery.

I don't think there's a lot of history of this behaviour. From what I know, for most of their medium-term history, Arabs were ruled by the Turks, Brits etc. Movies in the 60s, 70s show them either as fawning - effendi, effendi types or noble savages. Sudden oil money and being served by a range of nationalities and everyone begging for their money has probably turned them a bit arrogant like any arrivistes or lottery winners.

Perhaps Muslims expect some special consideration given the common religion and perceive an extra racism when they don't get it. As far as most others are concerned, I don't think Arabs are seen as particularly racist - more as vulgar, tasteless and perhaps exploitative and uncaring.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Honestly, I don't see Arab attitudes as racism but more as nouveau riche snobbery.

I don't think there's a lot of history of this behaviour. From what I know, for most of their medium-term history, Arabs were ruled by the Turks, Brits etc. Movies in the 60s, 70s show them either as fawning - effendi, effendi types or noble savages. Sudden oil money and being served by a range of nationalities and everyone begging for their money has probably turned them a bit arrogant like any arrivistes or lottery winners.

Perhaps Muslims expect some special consideration given the common religion and perceive an extra racism when they don't get it. As far as most others are concerned, I don't think Arabs are seen as particularly racist - more as vulgar, tasteless and perhaps exploitative and uncaring.

Pretty much where I was going with this. I think we tend to quickly overlook how racist our own folk can be given half the chance. The caste system didn't spring up out of nowhere.

 

[sweep_shot]

I don't think there's a lot of history of this behaviour. From what I know, for most of their medium-term history, Arabs were ruled by the Turks, Brits etc. Movies in the 60s, 70s show them either as fawning - effendi, effendi types or noble savages. Sudden oil money and being served by a range of nationalities and everyone begging for their money has probably turned them a bit arrogant like any arrivistes or lottery winners.

This is applicable to many modern day Indians too. Recent successes/riches got to their heads and made them arrogant.

I guess this is human nature.

 

[Red-Indian]

Pretty much where I was going with this. I think we tend to quickly overlook how racist our own folk can be given half the chance. The caste system didn't spring up out of nowhere.

Yep most folks will be racist where they can get away with it towards some perceived lower class. Maybe there's some dude in some hellhole in the Central African Republic who has no-one to be racist towards and therefore isn't but I wouldn't count on it. I'm sure he'll find someone in Chad to be racist towards.

I think where @rickroll is coming from is that he would expect an exception to be made towards fellow Muslims. Arabs can be contemptuous towards and exploit Hindus and other religion folks all they want but they should be treating Muslims even from other countries like Pakistan, India and Bangladesh with a little more respect and consideration. Unfortunately, I don't think the Arabs think in that manner. For them, all third world folks coming to manual and service labour in their countries get treated the same irrespective of their religion, caste or social status back home.

 

[sweep_shot]

I think where @rickroll is coming from is that he would expect an exception to be made towards fellow Muslims. Arabs can be contemptuous towards and exploit Hindus and other religion folks all they want but they should be treating Muslims even from other countries like Pakistan, India and Bangladesh with a little more respect and consideration. Unfortunately, I don't think the Arabs think in that manner. For them, all third world folks coming to manual and service labour in their countries get treated the same irrespective of their religion, caste or social status back home.

Way too much generalization.

Not all Arabs behave the same just like not all desis behave the same (many racist desis also).

 

[Red-Indian]

Way too much generalization.

Not all Arabs behave the same just like not all desis behave the same (many racist desis also).

Weird. You basically deleted the first half of my post that made that exact point and said it in your own words as if you were disagreeing with me.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Most Muslims in the world are non-Arabs. Islam doesn't say Islam belongs to Arabs only. Islam is for whole of humanity.

A good Muslim is someone who follows Quran and Sunnah. Not what Arabs (or any other group) do.

Quran clearly says that it is revealed in Arabic language you understand.

This means it is revealed for Arabs.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Pretty much where I was going with this. I think we tend to quickly overlook how racist our own folk can be given half the chance. The caste system didn't spring up out of nowhere.

Caste system is not about race. It is a profession based division and strict labor segregation.

The word Caste is alien to Indian subcontinent until about 100 years ago. It is a name given by Portuguese. The actual name is Varnashrama Dharma.
I will split the word for you ----
Varna(Division) + Shrama(Labor) + Dharma (Duty). It has no racial connotations to it. Abrahamic followers added racial aspect to it to corrupt the real meaning of VarnaShrama Dharma. A ploy added to convert the downtrodden.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Indians have this weird fetish with nationalism. They try to understand the entire world through the lense of nationalism.

What they don't understand is Islam doesn't work like that. There is nothing called Arab Islam, Pakistani Islam, or Indonesian Islam. There is only one Islam and that is followed by Muslims worldwide.

Practicing Islam doesn't mean following Arabs (which @Varun was insinuating). Islam is a religion. Arabs are an ethnic group.

Nationalism may be alien to Islam followers. But in most countries, Nationalism is the way.

All of Islamic practices are Arab practices. Your names are Arabic. The holy book is in Arabic and you read Arabic everyday. Hajj is Arabic.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Yep most folks will be racist where they can get away with it towards some perceived lower class. Maybe there's some dude in some hellhole in the Central African Republic who has no-one to be racist towards and therefore isn't but I wouldn't count on it. I'm sure he'll find someone in Chad to be racist towards.

I think where @rickroll is coming from is that he would expect an exception to be made towards fellow Muslims. Arabs can be contemptuous towards and exploit Hindus and other religion folks all they want but they should be treating Muslims even from other countries like Pakistan, India and Bangladesh with a little more respect and consideration. Unfortunately, I don't think the Arabs think in that manner. For them, all third world folks coming to manual and service labour in their countries get treated the same irrespective of their religion, caste or social status back home.

I think the reasons for that are summed up pretty well in your previous post. UAE Arabs were basically living in tents and riding camels a couple of generations ago, then basically everyone became a millionaire overnight. The combination of sudden riches and a pretty primitive lifestyle previously has gone to their heads. I just don't think other nationalities would be much different in the same circumstances.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Caste system is not about race. It is a profession based division and strict labor segregation.

The word Caste is alien to Indian subcontinent until about 100 years ago. It is a name given by Portuguese. The actual name is Varnashrama Dharma.
I will split the word for you ----
Varna(Division) + Shrama(Labor) + Dharma (Duty). It has no racial connotations to it. Abrahamic followers added racial aspect to it to corrupt the real meaning of VarnaShrama Dharma. A ploy added to convert the downtrodden.

It might not be racism in the technical sense, but it works in more or less the same fashion. You mention dharma there, but before the RSS pioneers decided hinduism was too religion based, dharma meant a person ended up a low caste by birth as part of his or her dharma, and they couldn't escape that dharma during their lifetime.

Hence they were treated as lesser beings in the same way a racist would grade some races as lesser.

 

[rickroll]

Yep most folks will be racist where they can get away with it towards some perceived lower class. Maybe there's some dude in some hellhole in the Central African Republic who has no-one to be racist towards and therefore isn't but I wouldn't count on it. I'm sure he'll find someone in Chad to be racist towards.

I think where @rickroll is coming from is that he would expect an exception to be made towards fellow Muslims. Arabs can be contemptuous towards and exploit Hindus and other religion folks all they want but they should be treating Muslims even from other countries like Pakistan, India and Bangladesh with a little more respect and consideration. Unfortunately, I don't think the Arabs think in that manner. For them, all third world folks coming to manual and service labour in their countries get treated the same irrespective of their religion, caste or social status back home.

Some good points here and in post #69. Somehow multi-quote reply is not working so I can only quote this one message.

To clarify - I do not expect Arabs to give special treatment to muslims. The only reason I brought up Islam and muslims in the topic and my initial post is the irony of Arabs considering themselves the original muslims but acting against the basic tenets of Islam. The reason I also mentioned their racism even against fellow muslims was to highlight that their prejudiced behavior is not stemmed from religious superiority ("we are believers and look down on the non-believers") but more of true racism.