Are Indian bowlers faster than Pakistani bowlers?

[Stallion__]

Most debates on bowling in Pakpassion settle based on the nationality of the bowler, not performances.

Not at all.
People are just misled by the fact that Wahab bowled the fastest bowl of the tournament.
Yadav clearly is a different bowler since his last comeback.
Much more consistent, accurate and cleverer than before.
Same is the case for Shami. He was always good with older ball but now, can take wickets with new one as well.
Both can bowl consistently at 145k in their first spell atleast.

Still, they have a long way to go. Both are wicket-takers and can pick wickets at any time of the innings.
But against quality/agressive batting sides, they leak a lot of runs even in test matches.
They are promising though, India need to handle them well.

As far as comparison with Pak bowlers is concerned, none of Pakistani bowler has consistently been the part of national team in last couple of years (Maybe Yadav hasn't been consistent part of Indian team too). But whoever has Pakistan played, he has done the job for them in tests.
Before WC, Pakistan ODI bowling has been terrible in last year or so. Worst among top 8 (excluding WI maybe).
Its in this WC actually that Pak bowlers have found some venom.
So really, no need to compare the stats of last year or two since Indian counterparts have been clearly.
But that doesn't mean that quality of Indian pacers is greater than that of Pakistanis.
This just cant be judged whether which teams' quicks are better.
Last year has been best for Indian pacers and worst of Pakistanis so this really isnt the right way to judge them.

It's probably the performance in the next year, we will be able to determine which teams' quicks are better.

And for pace, maybe rightly so that Indian pacers average speed is greater than Pakistan's ones.
But all Pakistanis pacers have ability to bowl 140k+ at any stage of the match.(S Khan maybe in late 130's)

 

[Reverseswing97]

Not at all.
People are just misled by the fact that Wahab bowled the fastest bowl of the tournament.
Yadav clearly is a different bowler since his last comeback.
Much more consistent, accurate and cleverer than before.
Same is the case for Shami. He was always good with older ball but now, can take wickets with new one as well.
Both can bowl consistently at 145k in their first spell atleast.

Still, they have a long way to go. Both are wicket-takers and can pick wickets at any time of the innings.
But against quality/agressive batting sides, they leak a lot of runs even in test matches.
They are promising though, India need to handle them well.

As far as comparison with Pak bowlers is concerned, none of Pakistani bowler has consistently been the part of national team in last couple of years (Maybe Yadav hasn't been consistent part of Indian team too). But whoever has Pakistan played, he has done the job for them in tests.
Before WC, Pakistan ODI bowling has been terrible in last year or so. Worst among top 8 (excluding WI maybe).
Its in this WC actually that Pak bowlers have found some venom.
So really, no need to compare the stats of last year or two since Indian counterparts have been clearly.
But that doesn't mean that quality of Indian pacers is greater than that of Pakistanis.
This just cant be judged whether which teams' quicks are better.
Last year has been best for Indian pacers and worst of Pakistanis so this really isnt the right way to judge them.

It's probably the performance in the next year, we will be able to determine which teams' quicks are better.

And for pace, maybe rightly so that Indian pacers average speed is greater than Pakistan's ones.
But all Pakistanis pacers have ability to bowl 140k+ at any stage of the match.(S Khan maybe in late 130's)

Still its Shami > Wahab > umesh.

 

[aslaisnomasla]

Now you have become age expert as well?Male pattern baldness is a genetic thing.So go ahead and make a thread.

If Shami is decent and still has better ODI stats than any current Pak fast bowler,what does that make Pakistani bowlers?

aswell? lol i've never called myself an expert at anything on this forum...I m not an expert I just play this game of cricket with passion ... shami is an uncle and he looks like an uncle he doesn't look like a 25 year bloke at all. look man I don't have any agenda against indian bowlers if that's what you think but I do firmly believe that you guys jump quickly whenever someone takes few wickets and start comparing them with Pakistani bowlers. As soon as one of your bowlers does a great job next thing you know there is a comment about oh he looks better than junaid oh he is faster than wahab heck secretly you guys have a firm believe that kapil was the greatest bowler ever and was better than Imran khan ...anyways give your current pacers some time and stop with these stats...accept the fact that maybe you guys will never produce a bowler as good as a Pakistani bowler and same goes for us when it comes to batting....now a days cricket has become a joke and you hardly see good genuine well rounded fast bowlers... currently most of them are kaaam chalaaao bowlers bowling with t20 strategy... Yorkers are gone ...hardly see reverse swing...what are we comparing here? a bunch of mediocre bowlers?... Pakistan have not produced a single quality bowler after amir and asif maybe junaid when he's fully fit rest are just fillers although I really like rahat....I wont comment on irfan because to me hes a handicap and cant play for too long for me to decide.... so yeah shami uncle is a decent bowler so far and hasn't been consistent for too long, bursts here and there wont convince me same goes for wahab and rest of the current Pakistani bowlers ...stop with this hating and constant comparision with each other and start competing with others aswell.

 

[ahsaniqbalfutureofcricket]

Anybody could bowl fast if they wanted. Do they have control on their deliveries, I say NO!!! Varun Aaron has pace, but he has no control on his line and length. He has no natural movement. I have saw Junaid bowl over 145, and also around 148. He swings the ball, and has control which makes him a genuine fast bowler. Mohammad Shami is the only fast bowler in the Indian team who could bowl above 140, and have a it control. Whenever I have saw an Indian bowler cross 145 they have got hit for a four or six. It is all about a control. I have saw Sohail Khan bowl around 145, but he tends to bowl under 140 to keep his swing going. Also most of Shami's wickets have came from batsmen being hit out in the outfield. He hasn't really been able to penetrate. Junaid Khan's majority of wickets have came from LBW, and bowls, not catches. That's how you see the quality of the bowler. Being a bowler who is able to penetrate has much more quality then a bowler who tends to take wickets only when caught. I could prove this even further by talking about Shami's economy rate. He leaks run. His economy is 5.54 in ODI. That is quite expensive. Most of the times he has got 4-5 wickets in a match is when he got hit a lot. Junaid has a much lower economy of 5.14. Our bowlers don't tend to leak runs. I will admit Indian fast bowlers have improved, but to say there already better then Pakistan, South Africa, and Australia pacers is a huge misconception.

 

[sshakir411]

Indian phaaast bowlers have always been better than Pakistanis. I mean come on, who's ever heard about a quick Pakistani making news? It's always the Indian quicks who storm and surprise the world...few examples from history...Ajit Agarkar, Prasad, RP Singh, Irfan Pathan, Balaji, Ishant Sharma, it's a never ending list really.

 

[sshakir411]

oh add Ganguly and Robin Singh to that list as well ^^

 

[Pantani]

No man he's wrong since Wahab has only 4 tailender wickets out of 16.

True, but even if he were right, it's still important to finish the innings well. Especially for a team like Pakistan which really needs the attack to bowl out teams in order to win games.

 

[Reverseswing97]

True, but even if he were right, it's still important to finish the innings well. Especially for a team like Pakistan which really needs the attack to bowl out teams in order to win games.

True indian death bowling troubles are well documented and then there's Pakistani death bowling

 

[Pantani]

Tailend wickets in 50 over cricket are far more important than in tests. They can hit boundaries so easily these days and while a couple of quickfire 15s rarely change much in tests, in ODIs those few runs can be so vital. Would Dhoni have given up if India were chasing 300 rather than 329?

 

[emad1209]

Lol we Pakistanis are having trouble digesting the idea that a couple of Indian pacers might be extremely good. For me there are 2 discussions going on in this thread:

1. Skill
a. It’s a toss up whether you would want your new ball pair to be (Umesh Yadav + Muhammad Shami) or (Junaid Khan + M.Irfan). You can argue for either and have merit. (Give credit to the Indians where it's due please.) After that though, it’s Pakistani bowlers hands down. (Give credit to the Pakistanis where it's due please).
b. Shami + Yadav + M.Sharma + Bhuv Kumar
vs
M.Irfan + J.Khan + Umar Gul + Rahat Ali (M.Amir?)

The #3 and #4 pacers for Pakistan much better. (Umar Gul vs Mohit Sharma!??). Therefore, the Pakistan pace attack is better. Quite frankly, the Pakistan #5, #6, #7...#10 is also better than the Indian counterparts.
c. For the WC Pakistan was without M.Irfan, Ajmal, M.Amir, M.Asif, Junaid Khan, Hafeez, Umar Gul, and still had an outstanding bowling attack. What would happen if India were without just their top two, Shami and Yadav? An absolute meltdown.

2. Speed:
a. Generally Umesh Yadav bowls around the 145-148 kph mark for most of his spells. Wahab will bowl faster at 147-151 kph for a spell (usually his first) and then drop to 144-146 kph for the rest.
b. M.Irfan is a touch faster than Shami. This is a wonderful link which documents how fast each bowler bowled in each WC match. Just go down and click on “Bowl Speeds” http://cricket.heraldsun.com.au/match-home.html?tournamentName=cwc-2015&matchId=cwc-2015-04
c. Junaid Khan, Rahat Ali, Umar Gul, Mohammad Amir, Ehsan Adil, Mohammad Sami, Anwar Ali, Bilawal Bhatti are all faster (and more skillful) pace bowlers than all their Indian counterparts with the exception of Varun Aaron, who is faster. (but not more skillful.)

In conclusion, Indian new ball pair is as good as the Pakistani one. However, Pakistani pace attack is better overall. There have been times when Pakistan have had the better batting side over India. (Most of 1990s). There will indeed come a time when India fields the better bowling attack.

I'd like to think i've written enough here to offend both sides. I think that's a good sign

 

[Cricketfan no 1]

Lol we Pakistanis are having trouble digesting the idea that a couple of Indian pacers might be extremely good. For me there are 2 discussions going on in this thread:

1. Skill
a. It’s a toss up whether you would want your new ball pair to be (Umesh Yadav + Muhammad Shami) or (Junaid Khan + M.Irfan). You can argue for either and have merit. (Give credit to the Indians where it's due please.) After that though, it’s Pakistani bowlers hands down. (Give credit to the Pakistanis where it's due please).
b. Shami + Yadav + M.Sharma + Bhuv Kumar
vs
M.Irfan + J.Khan + Umar Gul + Rahat Ali (M.Amir?)

The #3 and #4 pacers for Pakistan much better. (Umar Gul vs Mohit Sharma!??). Therefore, the Pakistan pace attack is better. Quite frankly, the Pakistan #5, #6, #7...#10 is also better than the Indian counterparts.
c. For the WC Pakistan was without M.Irfan, Ajmal, M.Amir, M.Asif, Junaid Khan, Hafeez, Umar Gul, and still had an outstanding bowling attack. What would happen if India were without just their top two, Shami and Yadav? An absolute meltdown.

2. Speed:
a. Generally Umesh Yadav bowls around the 145-148 kph mark for most of his spells. Wahab will bowl faster at 147-151 kph for a spell (usually his first) and then drop to 144-146 kph for the rest.
b. M.Irfan is a touch faster than Shami. This is a wonderful link which documents how fast each bowler bowled in each WC match. Just go down and click on “Bowl Speeds” http://cricket.heraldsun.com.au/match-home.html?tournamentName=cwc-2015&matchId=cwc-2015-04
c. Junaid Khan, Rahat Ali, Umar Gul, Mohammad Amir, Ehsan Adil, Mohammad Sami, Anwar Ali, Bilawal Bhatti are all faster (and more skillful) pace bowlers than all their Indian counterparts with the exception of Varun Aaron, who is faster. (but not more skillful.)

In conclusion, Indian new ball pair is as good as the Pakistani one. However, Pakistani pace attack is better overall. There have been times when Pakistan have had the better batting side over India. (Most of 1990s). There will indeed come a time when India fields the better bowling attack.

I'd like to think i've written enough here to offend both sides. I think that's a good sign

Wahab's speed increases with time , he bowls with less pace in earlier overs and fires in death

 

[BreadPakoda]

Bump. Lots of comments on speed today. So who has faster bowlers? And how much is the gap between the two teams?

 

[Deewana]

Bump. Lots of comments on speed today. So who has faster bowlers? And how much is the gap between the two teams?

who cares about pace? wahab is faster than amir and hasan would u play him over those two?

 

[ataullah]

Indian bowlers barely touching 85mph. Would be interesting to compare Pak and Indian bowlers speed based on England series of this year

 

[cricketjoshila]

Indian bowlers barely touching 85mph. Would be interesting to compare Pak and Indian bowlers speed based on England series of this year

Shami bowling 90mph.

 

[ataullah]

Shami bowling 90mph.

Not seen that. Highest i seen is 88mph. 87/88 mostly. He's the quickest today.

 

[kuskash]

who cares about pace? wahab is faster than amir and hasan would u play him over those two?

Exactly. I would rather have a bowler trundling at 130 but picking up wickets than a bowler spraying gun at 145-150.

 

[Dingolfy]

Indian bowlers barely touching 85mph. Would be interesting to compare Pak and Indian bowlers speed based on England series of this year

All the three had crossed over 140 kph and Shami bowled the fastest at 144.6 kph.Indians have already bowled faster than Pakistanis against England.

 

[BlackShadow]

What a desperate bump, that too in a session where Indian pacers are focusing on swinging the ball (yet already comfortably faster than the trundle brigade in green).

 

[ethan hunt]

Wahab Riaz is miles faster than any one India has produced tbh .

He hit 156 kph at the Oval the last times he played tests in England .

More importantly Pakistani seam bowlers as a group and including the backup are comfortably better in limited overs and also test cricket i suspect.

 

[BlackShadow]

Wahab Riaz is miles faster than any one India has produced tbh .

He hit 156 kph at the Oval the last times he played tests in England .

More importantly Pakistani seam bowlers as a group and including the backup are comfortably better in limited overs and also test cricket i suspect.

One of the worst as far as Tests go. This decade, Pakistan Cricket has been all about Ajmal, Yasir and a bunch of trundlers. I can even support my claim with facts if you desire. Pakistani pacers have been ridiculously poor, and it shows in your ranking.

 

[ethan hunt]

One of the worst as far as Tests go. This decade, Pakistan Cricket has been all about Ajmal, Yasir and a bunch of trundlers. I can even support my claim with facts if you desire. Pakistani pacers have been ridiculously poor, and it shows in your ranking.

I am talking about the current attack . which i think is pretty good with the addition of Hassan and Abbas .

All three have bowled well together . Even Faheem compliments them well .

 

[Dingolfy]

I am talking about the current attack . which i think is pretty good with the addition of Hassan and Abbas .

All three have bowled well together . Even Faheem compliments them well .

Hassan has been poor in Tests.There is reason why you even lose to SriLanka at home which is your bowling attack.India's test bowling is much better than Pakistan's at the moment.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

I am talking about the current attack . which i think is pretty good with the addition of Hassan and Abbas .

All three have bowled well together . Even Faheem compliments them well .

Eh, Pakistan bowling is great in ODIs. None of the pacers have proved themselves in tests. Amir's been completely average since return.

 

[ethan hunt]

Eh, Pakistan bowling is great in ODIs. None of the pacers have proved themselves in tests. Amir's been completely average since return.

They did well in England as a group which was the last series they played , there is reason to be optimistic.

 

[ethan hunt]

Hassan has been poor in Tests.There is reason why you even lose to SriLanka at home which is your bowling attack.India's test bowling is much better than Pakistan's at the moment.

Hasan has not been poor in tests he was instrumental in Pakistan winning at Lords .

 

[Dingolfy]

Hasan has not been poor in tests he was instrumental in Pakistan winning at Lords .

And what happened in the next Test? Was trundling, had an economy of 4 and took two wickets at an average of 41.Clearly dont have stamina to bowl longer spells which is the bane of most of your current fast bowlers.

 

[Abdullah719]

One of the worst as far as Tests go.

But the thread is about faster bowlers

 

[Abdullah719]

1st inns of 1st Test - ENGvPAK




1st inns of 1st Test - ENGvIND

 

[dauntless]

nope not these Indian trundlers. Wahab riaz is the fastest bowler in Asia and probably the fastest in world. He has been bowling 150ks even some at 152ks and 154ks.These Indian trundlers can hardly bowl 140ks.

 

[Dingolfy]

1st inns of 1st Test - ENGvPAK

View attachment 83136


1st inns of 1st Test - ENGvIND

View attachment 83137

So Shami has already bowled the fastest in the first session itself!

 

[Dingolfy]

But the thread is about faster bowlers

We are faster too.All our three crossed 140 and Shami has already bowled fastest delivery in the first session itself.

 

[Dingolfy]

nope not these Indian trundlers. Wahab riaz is the fastest bowler in Asia and probably the fastest in world. He has been bowling 150ks even some at 152ks and 154ks.These Indian trundlers can hardly bowl 140ks.

Lol.Evidence is just above your post, my friend.

 

[dauntless]

Lol.Evidence is just above your post, my friend.

Wahab didn't play those tests. He has been bowling fast like he always did. No Indian bowler is faster than him.

 

[Abdullah719]

We are faster too.All our three crossed 140 and Shami has already bowled fastest delivery in the first session itself.

Yeah but you were deflecting...

Anyway, from the above graphs - Shami fastest of the lot, Amir and Hasan faster on average than the others.

Of the regular pacers for both sides, Bumrah is probably the fastest while Amir and Shami bowl at a similar pace. Hasan can also bowl at 90MPH but needs to sustain his pace for longer periods. Don't know much about Yadav or Ishant.

Wahab is (was) faster than Bumrah but isn't a regular.

None of the regulars can hit 150kph besides a few flukes here and there, which is disappointing.

 

[Dingolfy]

Yeah but you were deflecting...

Anyway, from the above graphs - Shami fastest of the lot, Amir and Hasan faster on average than the others.

Of the regular pacers for both sides, Bumrah is probably the fastest while Amir and Shami bowl at a similar pace. Hasan can also bowl at 90MPH but needs to sustain his pace for longer periods. Don't know much about Yadav or Ishant.

Wahab is (was) faster than Bumrah but isn't a regular.

None of the regulars can hit 150kph besides a few flukes here and there, which is disappointing.

Both Amir and Hassan tapered off considerably by the second test whereas Shami was still bowling 90 mph in the third test vs SA.You current bowlers lack test match fitness and stamina to bowl fast.

 

[Dingolfy]

Lol, Indians talking about pace when their bowlers are unable to even bowl straight

Proof is above, dear friend.No need to get all jelly about it.

 

[Abdullah719]

Both Amir and Hassan tapered off considerably by the second test whereas Shami was still bowling 90 mph in the third test vs SA.You current bowlers lack test match fitness and stamina to bowl fast.

Amir and Hasan have been playing in all formats and in various T20 leagues. That's not the case with Shami.

 

[BlackShadow]

Yeah but you were deflecting...

Anyway, from the above graphs - Shami fastest of the lot, Amir and Hasan faster on average than the others.

Of the regular pacers for both sides, Bumrah is probably the fastest while Amir and Shami bowl at a similar pace. Hasan can also bowl at 90MPH but needs to sustain his pace for longer periods. Don't know much about Yadav or Ishant.

Wahab is (was) faster than Bumrah but isn't a regular.

None of the regulars can hit 150kph besides a few flukes here and there, which is disappointing.

Umesh has bowled last many seasons at 90mph, and it is only in England that he cuts down on pace, something he admitted in several interviews. Shami too is comfortably quicker than Amir in Test Cricket.

In all formats,
Bumrah >Umesh > Shami > Amir=Ishant > Bhuvi > Hasan

 

[Dingolfy]

Amir and Hasan have been playing in all formats and in various T20 leagues. That's not the case with Shami.

Bumrah too played all the formats and was also bowling 90 mph in SA. And Both Hassan and Amir had ample rest before the test matches.So that argument doesnt stick.

 

[BlackShadow]

Bumrah too played all the formats and was also bowling 90 mph in SA. And Both Hassan and Amir had ample rest before the test matches.So that argument doesnt stick.

Amir and Hasan were trundling at low to mid 130s in their last tour to England. But somehow we are made to believe that Amir is as fast as Shami while Hasan's speed is to be measured by his peak. Height of delusions.

 

[babajee]

Umesh has bowled last many seasons at 90mph, and it is only in England that he cuts down on pace, something he admitted in several interviews. Shami too is comfortably quicker than Amir in Test Cricket.

In all formats,
Bumrah >Umesh > Shami > Amir=Ishant > Bhuvi > Hasan

Uff ) ) ) ) )

 

[Adijazz1706]

Umesh has bowled last many seasons at 90mph, and it is only in England that he cuts down on pace, something he admitted in several interviews. Shami too is comfortably quicker than Amir in Test Cricket.

In all formats,
Bumrah >Umesh > Shami > Amir=Ishant > Bhuvi > Hasan

Amir should be below Bhuvi and just above Hasan.

 

[BlackShadow]

Uff ) ) ) ) )

All I can say is that you will never see these speeds from Indian bowlers this tour. Even Pandaya will be faster, take my word.

 

[dauntless]

LOL the height of delusions here. Indians really live in their own world. Amir was bowling 145ks regularly in Australia. Indian trundlers can't match wahab riaz's speed.

 

[Dingolfy]

Uff ) ) ) ) )

Ishant has a lesser average in the last four years than Amir in Tests.So in Tests, he is above Amir at the moment.

 

[BlackShadow]

Ishant has a lesser average in the last four years than Amir in Tests.So in Tests, he is above Amir at the moment.

Their arguments are based on emoticons and sarcasm, understandably so.

 

[Dingolfy]

LOL the height of delusions here. Indians really live in their own world. Amir was bowling 145ks regularly in Australia. Indian trundlers can't match wahab riaz's speed.

Proof is just above, dear friend.Amir was trundling in the same country in way better weather conditions and lost all the steam by second test match.

 

[khan991]

Embarrassing thread don’t compare any bowlers to pak bowlers.

 

[amax]

this is a test match, lot of bowlers contain themselves and avoid going full out unless it is match changing session.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Their arguments are based on emoticons and sarcasm, understandably so.

Poor guys just cant handle the fact.

Add to that the fact that Mavi and Nagarkoti outpace Pakistani bowlers by some distance.

 

[troodon]

Pak Test bowlers do not bowl over 140k's. Even Amir and Hasan were trundling at mid to low 130's from what I saw. I am not counting Abbas as he is a swing bowler who bowls in high 120's.

 

[mak36]

Not sure what figures people are looking at.

How about we wait until England finish their innings and then let's talk.

They've already started trundling.

 

[Muddaser]

Poor guys just cant handle the fact.

Add to that the fact that Mavi and Nagarkoti outpace Pakistani bowlers by some distance.

Are you deluded?

Wahab is quicker than all of them.

Fact.

 

[topspin]

Even as a Pakistan fan you can't argue that Indian bowlers are quicker - most of them hit 140+:

- Bumrah
- Shami
- Pandya
- Umesh

I've also seen Ishant and B.Kumar touch 140+ every now and then.

From Pakistan's side - only Amir and Hasan Ali are 140+ bowlers and the rest are trundlers (below 135). Wahab Riaz is no longer in consideration from Mickey, so no point bringing him up otherwise we might as well add M.Sami then lol.

 

[Abdullah719]

Bhuvi > Hasan.... I'm out.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Are you deluded?

Wahab is quicker than all of them.

Fact.

When was the last time Wahab played a test?

 

[Abdullah719]

When was the last time Wahab played a test?

Just didn't play in the last 3 Tests. Was in the team before that. Don't think he would have played in Ireland or England, even if he was in the squad.

Mickey doesn't seem impressed with his work ethic so not sure about his future though.

 

[Arham_PakFan]

When was the last time Wahab played a test?

He was in the squad before the last tour.

 

[Dingolfy]

Bhuvi > Hasan.... I'm out.

In Test cricket ,he is miles ahead of Hasan.

 

[Abdullah719]

In Test cricket ,he is miles ahead of Hasan.

Hasan has only played a handful of Tests so it's too soon to compare. Though I have no doubt that he will end up a better bowler.

But, I thought we were talking about pace here...

 

[ManFan]

All I can say is that you will never see these speeds from Indian bowlers this tour. Even Pandaya will be faster, take my word.

View attachment 83141

Vastly different conditions than May-time England.

You’re not going to bowl 90MPH on seaming pitches.

 

[Dingolfy]

Vastly different conditions than May-time England.

You’re not going to bowl 90MPH on seaming pitches.

In fact tougher conditions for bowling fast than May time England.And South Africa also had seaming pitches and both Bumrah and Shami bowled 90 mph there.

 

[Dingolfy]

Hasan has only played a handful of Tests so it's too soon to compare. Though I have no doubt that he will end up a better bowler.

But, I thought we were talking about pace here...

That particular convo was about the quality of attack rather than pace.As we saw in the second English test itself, he lost all the steam and tapered off.Lacks test match quality and at the moment way behind Bhuvi in Tests.We will say he is better when he actually does that on field.Hyperboles have no place in sports.

 

[ManFan]

In fact tougher conditions for bowling fast than May time England.And South Africa also had seaming pitches and both Bumrah and Shami bowled 90 mph there.

Exactly my point.

Flat pitches = A need for faster bowling.

That’s why when Pakistan toured England in the summer of 16’, Wahab Riaz was bowling 90MPH and occasionally going above.

Fast forward to this year in May and the M.O.S, Mohammad Abbas, was bowling ~80MPH and picked up 10 wickets in 2 matches (didn’t even bowl the second innings of the second Test).

Speed reduces the ability to seam the ball effectively in places that are supportive.

Bumrah and Shami bowled 90MPH in SA but the pitches in that series were less than satisfactory for Test cricket. Not taking anything away from their performance but the team with bowlers who bowled consistently slower won the series.

 

[ManFan]

That particular convo was about the quality of attack rather than pace.As we saw in the second English test itself, he lost all the steam and tapered off.Lacks test match quality and at the moment way behind Bhuvi in Tests.We will say he is better when he actually does that on field.Hyperboles have no place in sports.

That was his fourth Test match.

You’re going to judge a bowler under 25 whose had less than five Tests as not quality?

 

[Muddaser]

When was the last time Wahab played a test?

Whats your point?

When did nagarkoti and co last play a test?

 

[Dingolfy]

Exactly my point.

Flat pitches = A need for faster bowling.

That’s why when Pakistan toured England in the summer of 16’, Wahab Riaz was bowling 90MPH and occasionally going above.

Fast forward to this year in May and the M.O.S, Mohammad Abbas, was bowling ~80MPH and picked up 10 wickets in 2 matches (didn’t even bowl the second innings of the second Test).

Speed reduces the ability to seam the ball effectively in places that are supportive.

Bumrah and Shami bowled 90MPH in SA but the pitches in that series were less than satisfactory for Test cricket. Not taking anything away from their performance but the team with bowlers who bowled consistently slower won the series.

Wahab Riaz was always fast and hence bowled 90 mph back then just like Shami and Bumrah in SA.And in UAE also had flat pitches, why were your guys trundling there? Fast bowlers bowl fast whenever they get opportunity and your current bowlers just lack the stamina to do that in the longer format. And in SA, SA bowlers also touched 90 mph .

 

[Dingolfy]

That was his fourth Test match.

You’re going to judge a bowler under 25 whose had less than five Tests as not quality?

SA series was Bumrah's first. See how fast he bowled there.And I can only comment with what is there in front of me.Hassan lost the steam in the fourth test match itself and was trundling. So at this moment, he is not quality.As simple as that. I will change my opinion if he ups his performance in the next series.

 

[Stewie]

Hasan is been playing with an injury. Amir has not been pushing himself but he was still pretty quick.

None of the Pakistan quicks except amir have played as many tests as their Indian pace counterparts. But I agree they pip us on overall pace at the moment..

 

[Dingolfy]

Hasan is been playing with an injury. Amir has not been pushing himself but he was still pretty quick.

None of the Pakistan quicks except amir have played as many tests as their Indian pace counterparts. But I agree they pip us on overall pace at the moment..

Shami was also playing with a knee injury when he ripped through SA batting lineup at 90 mph.And Bumrah played in first Test series ever in SA.

 

[ManFan]

Wahab Riaz was always fast and hence bowled 90 mph back then just like Shami and Bumrah in SA.And in UAE also had flat pitches, why were your guys trundling there? Fast bowlers bowl fast whenever they get opportunity and your current bowlers just lack the stamina to do that in the longer format. And in SA, SA bowlers also touched 90 mph .

Bumrah bowled in cold SA weather where he got seamer-friendly pitches and had plenty of support including Pandya as a fifth bowler.

Hasan was playing his second Test in the UAE weather with Abbas (second series), Yasir, Amir (half-fit), and Riaz (who aborted his run-up five times in a row!). The difference could not be any greater and the first pitch he got that was green, he picked up four wickets in the first innings.

Yes, SA bowlers touched 90MPH but they did so less often and used the conditions to their advantage by slowing down. And at the end of the day, they won.

Three of our four current pacers have just finished their rookie year. Obviously they will take time to adjust to the Test game but I will admit that the likes of Bumrah and Shami are on average faster than the likes of Abbas and Faheem.

 

[Dingolfy]

Bumrah bowled in cold SA weather where he got seamer-friendly pitches and had plenty of support including Pandya as a fifth bowler.

Hasan was playing his second Test in the UAE weather with Abbas (second series), Yasir, Amir (half-fit), and Riaz (who aborted his run-up five times in a row!). The difference could not be any greater and the first pitch he got that was green, he picked up four wickets in the first innings.

Yes, SA bowlers touched 90MPH but they did so less often and used the conditions to their advantage by slowing down. And at the end of the day, they won.

Three of our four current pacers have just finished their rookie year. Obviously they will take time to adjust to the Test game but I will admit that the likes of Bumrah and Shami are on average faster than the likes of Abbas and Faheem.

LoL nice try at the end.Abbas and Faheem are rank trundlers in Tests and even Hardik Sobers Pandya is faster than them.
Regarding injuries, every fast bowler carries one. Shami bowled that fiery spell in SA with a persistent knee injury.Your Shoaib had a bad knee all his career.Those are not excuses for bad performances.Either you have it you don't .As simple as that.
And Hassan got seaming pitches in England. What did he do in the second test?Trundled in speed, went for almost 4 an over and took wickets at an average over 40. That is not even close to international standard.

 

[ManFan]

LoL nice try at the end.Abbas and Faheem are rank trundlers in Tests and even Hardik Sobers Pandya is faster than them.
Regarding injuries, every fast bowler carries one. Shami bowled that fiery spell in SA with a persistent knee injury.Your Shoaib had a bad knee all his career.Those are not excuses for bad performances.Either you have it you don't .As simple as that.
And Hassan got seaming pitches in England. What did he do in the second test?Trundled in speed, went for almost 4 an over and took wickets at an average over 40. That is not even close to international standard.

“Nice try”?

Faheem consistently bowls around the 85MPH mark and has yet to reach above it while everyone knows that Abbas operates around 80MPH because he is a seam/swing bowler.

Injuries are not excuses? Then why did Starc keep getting belted against ENG at home last year in the ODIs. It was due to fatigue and tear as fast bowling is the most strenuous art of the game. Shoaib had a knee injury but was better built than Amir and played less than 50 Tests. Meanwhile, Amir since his return in 2016, has bowled more overs than any other bowler across all formats.

Hasan did get seaming pitches and picked up six wickets at 31.8, not 40 as you claim, which is “not close to international standard”. This is despite not being able to bowl in the second innings.

And Shami’s injury? Fiery spell? There was no mention of a knee injury during the series but there was one PRIOR to the Test series. As far as his match-winning spell where he took five wickets, considering that it was his best spell in the SA series where you claim he was bowling consistently around 90 MPH, here is the only piece of commentary that mentions his speed during that Second Innings:

“Mohammad Shami to Morkel, OUT, yorker! From looking under par to unplayable! It’s 137 kph”.

That’s 85 MPH.

Not really fast if you consider the fact that both Abbas and Faheem, trundlers in your words, bowled at speeds of 137.7 and 137.9 in the First Test in England.

 

[BlackShadow]

Not really fast if you consider the fact that both Abbas and Faheem, trundlers in your words, bowled at speeds of 137.7 and 137.9 in the First Test in England.

Just embarrassing that you are comparing these trundlers to Indian pacers. You think your lies will change the course of discussion just because people don't bother to check?

Their England speeds are well documented in this thread and 127-132 kph trundling is basically Pandaya on one leg. Don't even compare this to Indian pacers, thank you.

 

[ManFan]

Just embarrassing that you are comparing these trundlers to Indian pacers. You think your lies will change the course of discussion just because people don't bother to check?

Their England speeds are well documented in this thread and 127-132 kph trundling is basically Pandaya on one leg. Don't even compare this to Indian pacers, thank you.

Kindly look at the Speed Watch thread on this website before making sweeping judgements and accusing others of lying.

 

[BlackShadow]

Kindly look at the Speed Watch thread on this website before making sweeping judgements and accusing others of lying.

What you mention is their top speed which is still 2-3 kph slower than Shami's average pace. And that's only the first Test 1st inning, they got slower and slower as Test series progressed.

 

[BlackShadow]

I know that Pakistani posters take pride in producing fast bowlers, but there is no shame in admitting what is so obvious. Even Shami's average pace is far quicker than the top speeds of your leading pacers, and Bumrah's inclusion in coming Tests will only make the gulf wider.

I need not argue more here.

 

[ManFan]

What you mention is their top speed which is still 2-3 kph slower than Shami's average pace. And that's only the first Test 1st inning, they got slower and slower as Test series progressed.

They got slower because the conditions required them to do so. As I mentioned to @Dignolfy, bowling at 90MPH on seaming pitches won’t do you any good especially if you lose your ability to swing/seam the ball while doing so. Hence, Shami bowling at 85 when he picked up five against SA and helping India to their only win of that tour.

In the previous two matches, he was picking up wickets but not as many because he was bowling faster and not smarter. Why do the likes of Amir bowl at 90MPH in Australia but Max 85 in NZ, ENG and the UAE? Because lowering their speed allows them to enable more revs on the ball increasing their swing momentum. As far as the UAE is concerned, you will break your back if you attempt to bowl at 90MPH for an entire innings let alone an entire Test series. Which is why Wahab Riaz is effective because he bowls short and rapid spells giving him plenty of time to recover once the spinners are having a go.

Shami’s average speed was made aware to me as 90MPH but his best spell in SA was one where he was bowling yorkers at 85 MPH. Which is precisely what the likes of Abbas and Faheem were bowling at top speed under similar conditions while being slower on average than Hasan and Amir.

Anyways, if the likes of Amir and Hasan are truly fit in December when they tour SA, we can have an adequate data sample to compare their speeds.

 

[dauntless]

it doesn't proved anything. Wahab riaz is still the fastest bowler in Asia by far. He has bowled 150 ks in heat of UAE. Indian trundlers can only dream of bowling 150ks anywhere let alone in the heat of UAE.Even Mohammad sami at the age 37-38 can bowl faster than trundler country.