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Are there any massive economic advantages to India/Pakistan over getting all of Kashmir?

Savak

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Kashmir has actually been called the most beautiful place on earth and that it offers tremendous economic benefits to the country which gets it

My question is that are these claims over rated? Pakistan already has quite a few places in NWFP, Gilgit and Northern Areas and I am sure India has a few places too. Or is Kashmir just superior compared to any tourist recreational spot compared to anything either country has right now?
 
Water..and I think also think religious significance fr hindus..
 
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Water
Tourism
Cashmere wool
Carpets and shawls
Apples and other fruits
A young population

Most of all you save money on defense expenditure
 
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Lot and lots of advantages. Water, Tourism is what people focus on. It's true. With the himalayan glaciers melting fast, it could be an issue of national security and survival in the coming years. Especially the case with Pakistan if there are water wars. For India, AK is useless but Gilgit is of extreme importance. By taking over Gilgit they can access Afghanistan and cut the China-Pakistan access. The same reasons why Gilgit is of prime importance to Pakistan.
 
Lot and lots of advantages. Water, Tourism is what people focus on. It's true. With the himalayan glaciers melting fast, it could be an issue of national security and survival in the coming years. Especially the case with Pakistan if there are water wars. For India, AK is useless but Gilgit is of extreme importance. By taking over Gilgit they can access Afghanistan and cut the China-Pakistan access. The same reasons why Gilgit is of prime importance to Pakistan.

Gilgit have said they want to merge with pakistan, Ind have no chance.

what really agitates the indians they keep on talking about they will cut pakistan in pieces fact is the way modi is going india will cut itself in peices.. :)))
 
They talk about the water, the day india breaks that deal and it effects the survival of pakistan there will be no india or pakistan left.

Water will cause the next war, if pak was not nuclear power it would have been easy for india to take it but not now.
 
Gilgit have said they want to merge with pakistan, Ind have no chance.

what really agitates the indians they keep on talking about they will cut pakistan in pieces fact is the way modi is going india will cut itself in peices.. :)))

Yes I'm aware of Gilgit wanting to be a province. However, it will still be annexation unless there is a plebisite held officially as per your own logic on J&k. Cutting Pakistan into pieces is just rhetoric. I don't think anybody cares about rest of Pakistan other than Kashmir. And even in Kashmir, AK is just part of the dispute for rhetorical purposes. It has absolutely no use. For some reason you were ROFL there but Modi has actually united the nation by whatever means. North East, which was a problem child of India is becoming a BJP bastion with nationalistic fervor against Bangladeshis migrants. He just annexed J&K with a simple coup and there was nothing anybody else could do. I think in the grand scheme of things, Gilgit will be the war of our times. However, Pakistan needs to be economically much weaker than now and China's influence is curbed by the west even further. It will take time
 
Yes I'm aware of Gilgit wanting to be a province. However, it will still be annexation unless there is a plebisite held officially as per your own logic on J&k. Cutting Pakistan into pieces is just rhetoric. I don't think anybody cares about rest of Pakistan other than Kashmir. And even in Kashmir, AK is just part of the dispute for rhetorical purposes. It has absolutely no use. For some reason you were ROFL there but Modi has actually united the nation by whatever means. North East, which was a problem child of India is becoming a BJP bastion with nationalistic fervor against Bangladeshis migrants. He just annexed J&K with a simple coup and there was nothing anybody else could do. I think in the grand scheme of things, Gilgit will be the war of our times. However, Pakistan needs to be economically much weaker than now and China's influence is curbed by the west even further. It will take time

Is this what they're teaching you these days at your RSS terror schools? Have some shame man... don't flaunt your ignorance for all to see and laugh.
 
[MENTION=134505]rhony[/MENTION]

Gilgit is never going to be a part of India.
 
Yes I'm aware of Gilgit wanting to be a province. However, it will still be annexation unless there is a plebisite held officially as per your own logic on J&k. Cutting Pakistan into pieces is just rhetoric. I don't think anybody cares about rest of Pakistan other than Kashmir. And even in Kashmir, AK is just part of the dispute for rhetorical purposes. It has absolutely no use. For some reason you were ROFL there but Modi has actually united the nation by whatever means. North East, which was a problem child of India is becoming a BJP bastion with nationalistic fervor against Bangladeshis migrants. He just annexed J&K with a simple coup and there was nothing anybody else could do. I think in the grand scheme of things, Gilgit will be the war of our times. However, Pakistan needs to be economically much weaker than now and China's influence is curbed by the west even further. It will take time

Gilgit is China's access to the Indian ocean. China will not sit by idly if India tries to capture Gilgit Baltistan. So dream on brother.
 
Gilgit is China's access to the Indian ocean. China will not sit by idly if India tries to capture Gilgit Baltistan. So dream on brother.

Did you see that I was dreaming? I just stated what I think will happen as it makes sense to me. Central Asia is the next investment opportunity and access to it is key for India. There are other ways for China to reach Indian Ocean, through India itself. Anyway, the political landscape changes quickly. Let's see how they do
 
Is this what they're teaching you these days at your RSS terror schools? Have some shame man... don't flaunt your ignorance for all to see and laugh.

I know for a Bharat Ratna like you it's difficult to comprehend that your great mother land can do such things. Your secular instincts are weeping while your breath chants Jay Hind. But this is the way the world works "Ram Shekhar". What I suggest is, use some logic and try to counter argue or extend the debate if you can. But for that, you need to put aside your "Indian" patriotism a bit and think objectively. Also go online, read some documents, watch a few videos, listen to interviews, try to understand the strategies
 
Water at best, but it will be a zero sum war to fight over it.
 
I know for a Bharat Ratna like you it's difficult to comprehend that your great mother land can do such things. Your secular instincts are weeping while your breath chants Jay Hind. But this is the way the world works "Ram Shekhar". What I suggest is, use some logic and try to counter argue or extend the debate if you can. But for that, you need to put aside your "Indian" patriotism a bit and think objectively. Also go online, read some documents, watch a few videos, listen to interviews, try to understand the strategies

I need not argue with communal folks like you. You're the typical Modi bhakat that we seculars despise. Thanks for ruining India forever.
 
I know for a Bharat Ratna like you it's difficult to comprehend that your great mother land can do such things. Your secular instincts are weeping while your breath chants Jay Hind. But this is the way the world works "Ram Shekhar". What I suggest is, use some logic and try to counter argue or extend the debate if you can. But for that, you need to put aside your "Indian" patriotism a bit and think objectively. Also go online, read some documents, watch a few videos, listen to interviews, try to understand the strategies

:108: By asking an ultra secular person to be logical and to provide valid arguments, you are wasting his time. He would better spend it for standing up for India! My 2 cents.
- Yours truly,
Rashid Abdul.
 
Kashmir's struggle did not start in 1947 and will not end today

On August 5, India's Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) government issued a surprise executive decree stripping away the autonomy that the state of Jammu and Kashmir was granted in exchange for joining the Indian union after independence in 1947.

Since the decree, Indian authorities also imposed an unprecedented lockdown in the region, cutting off all communication lines, restricting movement and putting prominent Kashmiri politicians under house arrest.

The government's decision to revoke Article 370 of India's constitution, which ensured the Muslim-majority state its own constitution and independence over all matters except foreign affairs, defence and communications, was undoubtedly the most far-reaching political move on the disputed region in the last seven decades. However, neither the Indian government's decision to impose direct rule from New Delhi, nor its attempts to silence the Kashmiri cries for freedom and dignity is anything new.

A brief look back in history makes it evident that Kashmir's oppression and colonial exploitation started long before the formation of modern India. Ever since its annexation by the Mughal empire in 1589 AD, Kashmir has never been ruled by Kashmiris themselves. After the Mughals, the region was ruled by the Afghans (1753-1819), Sikhs (1819-46), and the Dogras (1846-1947) until the Indian and Pakistani states took over.

The Mughals, who did nothing to alleviate the region's poverty or help it fight famines, instead built hundreds of gardens in Kashmir, converting it into a luxurious summer refuge for the rich. The Afghans not only sent Kashmiri people to Afghanistan as slaves, but also imposed extortionate taxes on the region's famed shawl weavers, causing the shawl industry to shrink in size. Next came the Sikhs, who, according to the British explorer William Moorcroft, treated the Kashmiris "little better than cattle".

The discrimination Kashmir's Muslim majority is still facing to this day also came to the fore for the first time during the Sikh rule. Back then, the murder of a native by a Sikh was punished with a fine of 16 to 20 Kashmiri rupees to the government, of which 4 rupees would go to the family of the deceased if the victim is a Hindu, and only 2 rupees if the deceased is a Muslim.

And in 1846, when the British East India Company defeated the Sikh Empire in the first Anglo-Sikh war, Kashmir was sold to the Dogras as if it was not the home of millions of people but just a "commodity". Gulab Singh, a Dogra, who served as the ruler of Jammu in the Sikh Empire, chose to side with the British in the Anglo-Sikh war. After the war, the East India Company "sold" Kashmir to Gulab Singh for a lump sum of 7.5 million rupees to reward his loyalty.

Gulab Singh and the successive Dogra rulers, who then had a free pass over the Kashmir valley, imposed further extortionate taxes on the Kashmiris in an attempt to raise the 7.5 million rupees they had paid to buy Kashmir. Moreover, as a mark of their continued loyalty, the Dogra rulers catered to continued British demands for money and muscle. Under the Dogra rule, Kashmiris were forced to fight in all of Britain's wars, including the two world wars.

The Dogra rule was possibly the worst phase in terms of the economic extortion in Kashmir. Most of the peasants were landless since Kashmiris were banned from holding any land. About 50-75 percent of cultivated crops went to the Dogra rulers, leaving the working class with practically no control over the produce. The Dogra rulers also reintroduced the begar (forced labour) system under which the state could employ workers for little to no payment. Not only every imaginable profession was taxed, but Kashmiri Muslims were also forced to pay a tax if they wished to get married too. The absurdity of the exorbitant tax system reached a new high when something called "zaildari tax" was introduced to pay for the cost of taxation itself!

During the Dogra rule, Kashmiri Pandits - native Hindus of the Kashmir Valley - were slightly better off than the Kashmiri Muslims, perhaps as a result of the administration's pro-Hindu bias. They were allowed to have more upper-class jobs and work as teachers and civil servants. This meant that amongst a predominantly Muslim population, the so-called "petite bourgeois" was dominated by the Hindus. The Dogra regime also replaced Koshur with Urdu as the official language in the region, making it even harder for the Koshur-speaking Kashmiri Muslims to break free from poverty.

Therefore, the history of Kashmir's Muslims often intersects with the history of the working class in the valley. In fact, throughout the Dogra rule in Kashmir, the resistance against the oppressive regime was shaped by class as much as religion.

The workers' resistance against the Dogras kicked off as early as in 1865, when Kashmiri shawl weavers agitated to improve their work conditions. The regime brutally crushed the uprising and in the three decades following the protest, the number of Kashmiri shawl weavers decreased from 28,000 to just over 5,000. Despite the setback, however, Kashmiri workers continued to fight for their rights. in 1924, workers from a Srinagar silk factory went on a strike for better working conditions.

In 1930, some young, left-wing Muslim intellectuals formed the Reading Room Party to get together and explore a way forward for the Jammu and Kashmir that is free of autocracy and oppression. They soon started organising meetings in mosques, and slowly this "political consciousness" started to spread from the intelligentsia to the middle classes. In time, they moved on from mosques to larger scale open meetings.

Noting this growing spirit of revolt among the Muslim community, in 1931, the Dogras approved the formation of three political parties in the valley - Kashmiri Pandits Conference, Hindu Sabha in Jammu, and Sikhs' Shiromani Khalsa Darbar. This meant only non-Muslim groups were allowed political representation in the valley, leaving the majority of the population without an official political party.

That very same year saw several Muslim agitations that developed in reaction to the state's oppression. But the simmering tensions come to a boil on July 13, when a crowd of thousands tried to break into the Srinagar jail during the court hearing of a sedition case filed against a young Muslim man named Abdul Qadeer. Police responded with extreme brutality and 22 protesters were killed. As scholar and activist Prem Nath Bazaz noted, the sentiments of the crowd that rushed the prison were not anti-Hindu but anti-tyranny. Yet, the riots that took place in the aftermath of July 13 took a religious turn when shops owned by the Hindus were looted in the valley.

Bazaz attributed this to the shortsighted and inexperienced politics of the Reading Room Party as well as the hostile and discriminatory attitude of the Hindus towards the Muslim majority. Ever since that episode, however, all stakeholders in the Kashmir conflict have been attempting to communalise Kashmiri history. The struggle of the valley's working-class Muslims has been reduced to their religious identity, as if the religion that they follow makes their anger somewhat illegitimate.

While the suffering of the Muslim working class was immense under the Dogra rule, their situation did not get any better following Britain's departure from the Indian subcontinent and partition of colonial India into two nation-states.

Under the partition plan provided by the Indian Independence Act, Kashmir was given the options to become independent or accede to India or Pakistan.

The Dogra ruler at the time, Hari Singh, initially wanted Kashmir to become independent. But when tribesmen from Pakistan attempted to invade the region he agreed to join India in October 1947.

India's first Prime Minister Jawahar Lal Nehru sent troops to protect Kashmir from a possible Pakistani invasion. As a result, Hari Singh signed an instrument to accede the state to the Indian dominion. Article 370, which guaranteed Kashmir's autonomy in the Indian Union, was also added to the Indian constitution as a direct outcome of the instrument.

Unfortunately, it became clear in the following decades that India had no intention of protecting Kashmir's autonomy as in no time it started to act like yet another occupying imperial force and resumed the oppression of the region's long-suffering Muslim population.

At first, Nehru (a Kashmiri himself) appeared sympathetic to the cause of the Kashmiris. He promised multiple times to hold a plebiscite to determine the faith of Jammu and Kashmir. Back then, even the emergence of an independent Kashmir was being considered as a possible outcome.

Decades have passed, however, and the plebiscite Nehru promised was never held. Pakistan and India occasionally raised the issue and accused the other side of preventing the holding of a vote. To the convenience of both the states, the issue of plebiscite was eventually forgotten.

Since October 1947, India and Pakistan fought multiple wars over Kashmir, both claiming to have the best interests of the local population in mind. But they jointly suppressed Kashmiri voices that criticise the actions of both countries and demand independence.

One such example was the case of Maqbool Bhat, one of the founder members of Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front and proponent of organised armed struggle for the liberation of Kashmir. He was hunted down and hung by the Indian state, but the state of Pakistan also caused every trouble they could to stop Maqbool from organising a liberation movement for Kashmir that does not aim to pull the region into Pakistan's zone of influence.

Over the years, India and Pakistan did everything they could to control the narratives of Kashmir. India not only resorted to brutal methods of oppression, such as physical violence, torture, fake encounters, rape and unlawful prosecutions, it also concocted an alternative history, twisting data and facts to turn Indian public opinion against the plight of Kashmiri Muslims. Meanwhile, Pakistan was no innocent supporter of the Kashmiri struggle, as one of its former Presidents, Pervez Musharraf, openly admitted that the state supported and trained armed groups active in the valley, such as Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT), in the 1990s.

Despite the best efforts of the imperialist forces to silence and subdue them, the Kashmiris have been fighting for self-determination for hundreds of years. Today, imperial efforts to control the valley continue albeit quite ironically in the garb of nationalism. India's decision to revoke Jammu and Kashmir's special status thus is nothing other than yet another act of shameless imperialist aggression.

At worst, August 5, 2019, will be remembered by future generations as just another chapter in Kashmir's long history of imperial oppression. At best, this latest attack on the dignity of a long-suffering people will mark the beginning of an era of unprecedented resistance and struggle towards freedom for the Kashmiris.

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/kashmir-struggle-start-1947-today-190815093053238.html

Interesting tidbits about the history of Kashmir pre-independence. Looks like the Mughals, Sikhs, Dogras and the rest didn't care much for the Kashmiris either.
 
If independence had been a few years later then very likely the Dogra king would be have overthrown
 
Kashmir Defies Tourism Slump Amid Covid, 1 Lakh Visitors Since December

Thousands of tourists are flocking to Kashmir Valley as the second wave of Covid - the world's biggest surge - is sweeping through the country. On Srinagar's Dal Lake, shikaras have come alive and footfall at the tulip garden is increasing by the day. Most tourists say that with international travel being out of the question, Kashmir seems the best possible place.

Officials at the tourism department said more than 1 lakh tourists have arrived in the Valley since December, when the daily Covid surge in Kashmir crossed 1,200. The Valley recorded 1,269 cases on Tuesday.

"We found an opportunity and thought we should invite people here. We have seen Covid management is very well in Jammu and Kashmir and that's how it picked up December onwards," said Dr GN Itoo, the director of tourism Kashmir.

"Let me inform you that so far, 1.13 lakh tourists have visited," he added.

Priya Kotecha and her father Major Manoj Kotecha have travelled all the way from Gujarat because their trip to see the Dal lake and Tulip garden was long overdue.

"As you know, there are constraints in international travel. People are preferring domestic places. Actually, we had made plans to come here a long time ago. Everything was booked. All of a sudden there was the Covid surge and we were in a dilemma whether we should come or not," Priya Kotecha told NDTV.

There isn't a better place to visit post-retirement than Kashmir, her father added.

"After my retirement, I decided to visit Kashmir. Before coming, we took the RT-PCR test and also the antigen test once we reached here," said Manoj Kotecha.

Many visitors said that with restrictions on international travel, Kashmir has become a good option for them.

For hoteliers, it has come as a boon, especially after prolonged curfews and shutdowns in the wake of scrapping of Article 370 and the subsequent lockdown last year over the Covid outbreak.

Many said their businesses are recovering at last.

"It started in December. In hotel industry, people who lost their jobs and livelihood are getting their jobs back," said Mushtaq Chaya, chairman of the Hoteliers Association.

"But the way Covid is spreading in Maharashtra and Gujarat, it is having an impact on tourist arrivals," he added. Over the last few days, bookings have been cancelled as well.

The Jammu and Kashmir government has closed all schools after the second Covid wave. But it is making all efforts to bring tourists to the Valley.

The government has been criticised for organising a tulip festival in Srinagar last week and allowing thousands to visit the garden every day.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nd...s-since-december-2413086?amp=1&akamai-rum=off

Kashmiris are entertaining people who supports brutal suppression of their rights and human rights violations happening under Indian administration.
 
Kashmir is under President's rule, they don't make their own decisions. The Indian govt doesn't care about COVID spreading in Kashmir and killing off the native population; a country with one of the highest number of infections in the world shouldn't be allowing hundreds of thousands of tourists to travel to a small valley putting the lives of the locals at risk.
 
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nd...s-since-december-2413086?amp=1&akamai-rum=off

Kashmiris are entertaining people who supports brutal suppression of their rights and human rights violations happening under Indian administration.

Everybody has to earn money to feed their families. For some opposing India may be most important, for others earning enough to feed their children may be more important than whether they are part of India or part of Pakistan.

Kashmir is under President's rule, they don't make their own decisions.

It is a democracy. If a hotelier or a shopkeeper does not want to interact with tourists, they can simply say "I will not serve you in my establishment".
 
Everybody has to earn money to feed their families. For some opposing India may be most important, for others earning enough to feed their children may be more important than whether they are part of India or part of Pakistan.



It is a democracy. If a hotelier or a shopkeeper does not want to interact with tourists, they can simply say "I will not serve you in my establishment".

Kashmiris had no right in deciding if they wanted tourists to enter their state in the first place; their autonomy was stripped away in the most undemocratic ways and now they don't have a democratically elected Kashmiri government in place to decide if they should implement a lock down to prevent the spread of covid from mainland india.
 
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