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Are US/UK Western nations 'The Good Guys' in history?

I don’t think anyone is denying usa crimes. Pics like these can be put in this board from all empires. Usa is not alone or unique in this. All empires have blood on their hands.

Name me one nation whose policies have killed 4 million people in the last 20 years.

ITs not Russia or China who have been flying around blowing up children while they sleep. To say US is no different to others is idiotic and only a lover of them would say such a stupid thing.
 
Some posters have already suggested that it is not useful to reduce history to good versus evil. I would go further and say it is puerile to do so.

History often comes up on these pages but I think too few pause to think what the purpose of a serious study of history is.

You're missing the point. Its the west which claims its the good guys, see speeches from senile Biden or any recent President. They killed 500,000 children in Iraq, their excuse being they are the good guys and came to save Iraqis.
 
You're missing the point. Its the west which claims its the good guys, see speeches from senile Biden or any recent President. They killed 500,000 children in Iraq, their excuse being they are the good guys and came to save Iraqis.
As an example. When the ottomans/mongols/Japanese ( insert any empire) killing and repressing people . We’re they claiming to be the hood or the bad guy? When timour the conqueror killed 5 percent of the worlds population did he know or address his brutality? No they were all immune to it and could not self reflect . That’s one of the characteristics of empires. Nothing unique to usa
 
Some posters have already suggested that it is not useful to reduce history to good versus evil. I would go further and say it is puerile to do so.

History often comes up on these pages but I think too few pause to think what the purpose of a serious study of history is.

Of course.

Everyone thinks they are the good guy and those Others over there are the bad guys.
 
Funny, liberals want to ignore history when it comes to the warmongering West when killing innocent people in the name of democracy and liberal values, but the same lot remind us constantly of Western history when it comes to slavery and treatment of blacks.

Go get a refund.
 
Name me one nation whose policies have killed 4 million people in the last 20 years.

ITs not Russia or China who have been flying around blowing up children while they sleep. To say US is no different to others is idiotic and only a lover of them would say such a stupid thing.

Why Limit to 20 years?
 
Funny, liberals want to ignore history when it comes to the warmongering West when killing innocent people in the name of democracy and liberal values, but the same lot remind us constantly of Western history when it comes to slavery and treatment of blacks.

Go get a refund.
I don’t think anyone is excusing the west’s crimes. What everyone is saying is it’s not unique to the west or usa. All empires have blood on their hands. Plenty of examples have Been given. I know history and logic are not your strong points.
 
Name me one nation whose policies have killed 4 million people in the last 20 years.

ITs not Russia or China who have been flying around blowing up children while they sleep. To say US is no different to others is idiotic and only a lover of them would say such a stupid thing.

Russia is blowing up children right now.

China has separated hundreds of thousands of Uighur children from their parents. Forcibly sterilised an equivalent umber of women. Raped and tortured tens of thousands. Levelled sixteen thousand mosques.
 
A handful of western people are going to the gulf. People are going to the west is because the quality of life is better, respect for a human life is better, education is Berger, respect for women is Better. It’s a a better life. That’s why the posters here who complain all day are still sitting here in the west and have not moved to the gulf yet. Which they can very easily because of a western passport and western education( if they have one ) .


That's fine bhai, but why don't you apply the same standards for your cultural ancestors whom you are on record of admiring? We in the UK are seeing floods of immigrants coming from the east specifically of Tamil background. Will you tell their future children to go back to India or Sri Lanka?
 
That's fine bhai, but why don't you apply the same standards for your cultural ancestors whom you are on record of admiring? We in the UK are seeing floods of immigrants coming from the east specifically of Tamil background. Will you tell their future children to go back to India or Sri Lanka?

Where have I told anyone to go back?? Please point that out . Where have I told anyone to go back to their homeland. Waiting here…..
 
Name me one nation whose policies have killed 4 million people in the last 20 years.

ITs not Russia or China who have been flying around blowing up children while they sleep. To say US is no different to others is idiotic and only a lover of them would say such a stupid thing.

By the way, 1.5 millions Muslims killed each other in Iran-Iraq War, at least 300,000 Muslims killed in Bangladesh's war of independence and thousands more killed in Kuwait-Iraq War. These were Muslim on Muslim brutality. Generally, Muslims are much safer under Western governments (I am not talking about wars but general living).
 
Where have I told anyone to go back?? Please point that out . Where have I told anyone to go back to their homeland. Waiting here…..

You asked posters on here to move to the Gulf did you not? Why can you ask that and we can't make similar requests to other non-native westerners?
 
You asked posters on here to move to the Gulf did you not? Why can you ask that and we can't make similar requests to other non-native westerners?
I have posters who say gulf is so much better than the west their current home and according to them the west is about to collapse. I have asked them when not move to the gulf and get an ahead start. With their western passport and education. It will be easy. I am sorry I don’t understand what you have asked exactly.
 
I have posters who say gulf is so much better than the west their current home and according to them the west is about to collapse. I have asked them when not move to the gulf and get an ahead start. With their western passport and education. It will be easy. I am sorry I don’t understand what you have asked exactly.

If they could get a job in the Gulf, they would in a heartbeat. You should consider it, much safer to bring up families.
 
If they could get a job in the Gulf, they would in a heartbeat. You should consider it, much safer to bring up families.

I have lived in dubai. Prefer usa. Can’t marry with locals, can’t start a business without a local partner, if you die in an acode the you are worth a lot less than a local. . Try taking a local to court for a legal matter. .yes a paradise on earth. But yes much better than Pakistan or India . Better than living in Canada , usa , UK. I don’t think so. Not a contest even. That’s why nobody here who cries about the west and can’t help sing praises of the gulf 24/7 is still living in the west . And they will never leave either .They will never leave considering all the benefits they describe gulf has better living standards, better to raise a family, tax free money . Please be honest and realistic.
 
I have lived in dubai. Prefer usa. Can’t marry with locals, can’t start a business without a local partner, if you die in an acode the you are worth a lot less than a local. . Try taking a local to court for a legal matter. .yes a paradise on earth. But yes much better than Pakistan or India . Better than living in Canada , usa , UK. I don’t think so. Not a contest even. That’s why nobody here who cries about the west and can’t help sing praises of the gulf 24/7 is still living in the west . And they will never leave either .They will never leave considering all the benefits they describe gulf has better living standards, better to raise a family, tax free money . Please be honest and realistic.

Things have moved on - Golden Visas, Easy to start business in Bahrain etc

People from the West who come to the Gulf come for a year or so, and then stay for 20+ years earning tax free salaries. Excellent facilities, good schools - life is great and you get to hear the Azaan as well.
 
By the way, 1.5 millions Muslims killed each other in Iran-Iraq War, at least 300,000 Muslims killed in Bangladesh's war of independence and thousands more killed in Kuwait-Iraq War. These were Muslim on Muslim brutality. Generally, Muslims are much safer under Western governments (I am not talking about wars but general living).

Good point. Muslims shouldn't allow the west to start conflicts between each other esp sectarian. Of course you are aware Saddam was a puppet of the west , they armed him inc with chemical weapons and money so Iraq could go to war with Iran. The 2 world wars were mainly between Christians in Europe but nobody calls them Christian on Christian violence.

Causing conflicts, arming one side against another around the world, is more evidence the west arent the good guys. Thanks for brining this up, but surprised you didnt bring in Pakistan as usual.
 
All true and indefensible. Now do one on western countries also.

I don’t and have never defended the despicable and hateful terrorist organisations (and governments) of the ME. They have committed countless atrocities too, especially on their own people.

The point is that half the planet has been deluded into believing the “War on Terror” is a fight between extremist terrorists motivated by religion (evil, hate-mongering, backwards) and a noble West (progressive, liberal, spreading democracy and freedom, protecting its homeland).

I’m not in the business of counting and comparing deaths, both sides are pure evil. But I can assure you, any list on Western countries pales in comparison to the casualties they’ve inflicted on the rest of the world. The civilian death toll in the Iraq war alone was approximately 35x that of 9/11. What does it look like when we include Afghanistan, Syria, Pakistan, Yemen, Libya, Kuwait, Nigeria, Iran, Cameroon, Mali, Kenya, Ethiopia etc etc etc etc

https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians

Would you term this self defence? Would you term this a proportionate response? Why is it that we have decided only the Muslim side is motivated by hateful ideology?
 
Not only have the western nations used divide and rule, caused wars between nations and one of their favourite tactics to help this is installing or removing governments. South America has seen interference for decades now.

U.S. Backed Coups and Attempted Coups
2001 Haiti. Haitian paramilitaries based in the Dominican Republic launched an attack on the National Palace, seat of the government of President Aristide. The attack failed, but until 2004, similar to the 1980s Nicaraguan contras, these paramilitaries launched numerous raids into Haiti, and played a key role leading to the 2004 coup perpetrated directly by U.S. troops.

2002 Venezuela. The U.S. government partially funded and backed the short-lived April 11-14 coup against Hugo Chavez.

2002-3 Venezuela. Management of the state oil company PDVSA organized an “oil strike,” actually a lockout of the oil workers, to drive Hugo Chavez out of power. This again failed in early 2003.

2003 Cuba. In the lead up to the March 2003 U.S. invasion of Iraq, John Bolton claimed Cuba was a state sponsor of terrorism, producing biological weapons for terrorist purposes, just as Saddam’s Iraq was falsely claimed to have weapons of mass destruction (WMDs). During this period, the U.S. increased its anti-Cuba propaganda directed at the country and increased funding to “pro-democracy” groups in Cuba, while anti-Cuban right-wing groups escalated their activities. The U.S. paid “dissident” groups to organize protests and disruptions, including hijacking seven boats and airplanes to reach the U.S. where they were never prosecuted. The goal was to create the appearance of disorder in Cuba, which, combined with its alleged biological WMDs, demanded an international intervention to restore order. Cuba squashed this movement in spring 2003.

2004 Haiti. In an early 20th century style U.S. coup, U.S. troops invaded Haiti, kidnapped President Jean Bertrande Aristide and exiled him to the Central African Republic.

2008 Bolivia. The Media Luna attempted coup involved right-wing leaders and some indigenous groups from Bolivia’s lowlands financed by the U.S.. They sought to separate the richer Media Luna region from the rest of the country. In the process, they killed 20 supporters of President Evo Morales. Juan Ramon Quintana of the Bolivian government reported that between 2007-2015, the NED gave $10 million in funding to some 40 institutions including economic and social centers, foundations and NGOs. U.S. embassy cables showed it sought to turn social and indigenous movements against the Evo Morales government.

2009 Honduras. Honduran military forces, under orders from the U.S., seized President Manuel Zelaya, brought him to the U.S. military base at Palmerola, then exiled him to Costa Rica. This began an era of brutal neoliberal narco-trafficking regimes that ended in 2021 with the landslide election of Xiomara Castro, Zelaya’s wife.

2010 Ecuador. In September a failed coup against President Rafael Correa by military and police units backed by the indigenous organizations CONAIE and Pachakutik. The U.S. had infiltrated the police and armed forces, while the NED and USAID funded these indigenous organizations.

2011 Haiti. Following the Haiti earthquake in 2010 that killed 200,000, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton imposed Michel Martelly as president after threatening to cut off U.S. aid to Haiti. Clinton flew to Haiti to demand that Martelly be named one of the two runoff candidates, although Martelly was not recognized by the Electoral Council as one of the qualifiers. Despite a voter boycott, with fewer than 20% of the electorate voting, Martelly was announced the winner of the “runoff.” One reason why most Haitians boycotted was that the most popular political party in the country, Fanmi Lavalas, the party of former President Jean-Bertrand Aristide, was excluded from the ballot. The Haiti elections were funded by USAID, Canada, the OAS, the European Union and other foreign bodies.

2012 Paraguay. President Fernando Lugo was scapegoated for a land occupation confrontation between campesinos and the police, which led to 17 deaths. President Lugo was removed from office without a chance to defend himself in a lawfare coup.

2013 Venezuela. After the April election that Nicolas Maduro narrowly won, Henrique Capriles, the U.S.-supported loser, claimed the election was stolen and called his supporters out into the streets in violent protests. Due to the strength of the UNASUR countries at the time, the U.S. could not convince other countries to also reject Maduro’s victory.

2014 Venezuela. “La Salida”(The Exit), led by Leopoldo Lopez and Maria Corina Machado, resulted in 43 deaths, and aimed to drive President Maduro from power. Again, the U.S. could not get other Latin American governments to denounce Maduro, either in UNASUR or in the OAS.

2015 Ecuador. Between 2012-2015, $30 million from NED went to political parties, trade unions, dissident movements, and media. In 2013 alone, USAID and NED spent $24 million in Ecuador. This paid off in 2015 when CONAIE, which thanked USAID for its funding, called for an indigenous-led uprising. They began with marches in early August and concluded in Quito for an uprising and general strike on August 10. The attempted coup failed.

2015 Haiti. A new electoral coup for the presidency was funded by the U.S. to the tune of $30 million. Both the U.S. and the OAS refused Haitians’ demands to invalidate the election. The police attacked Supporters of opposition parties were shot with live and rubber bullets, killing many. President Michel Martelly’s chosen successor Jovenel Moise became president.

2015 Guatemala. The U.S. engineered a coup against right-wing President Otto Perez Molina because he was not sufficiently subservient.

2015 Argentina. Argentine prosecutor Alber Nisman was evidently murdered days after he made bogus criminal charges against President Cristina Fernandez, claiming she was involved in the 1994 bombing of a Jewish community center. This was used to create a scandal, unseat her, and bring neoliberals back to power. Neoliberal forces and media used the case to disrupt the Kirchner coalition from winning another presidential election.

2015-2019 El Salvador. El Salvador’s right-wing opposition backed by the U.S. sought to destabilize the government of President Salvador Sánchez Cerén of the Farabundo Martí National Liberation Front (FMLN). The conservative mass media launched a smear campaign against the administration, in concert with a surge in gang-driven homicides that the police chief said was part of a campaign to drive up body counts and remove the FMLN government. Sanchez Cerén and other former officials who were members of the FMLN later became targets of lawfare, “a strategy used in recent years by conservative groups in power to try to demobilize the organization and resistance of the peoples against neoliberalism and other forms of domination.”

2016 Brazil. U.S.-backed right-wing movements launched a campaign against President Dilma Rousseff of the Workers Party for “corruption.” Aided by the corporate media, they organized a series of protests in Brazil’s largest cities throughout 2015. In March 2016, a massive political demonstration brought together more than 500,000 people in support of impeaching President Rousseff. She was finally impeached by Congress and removed from office in a successful lawfare coup.

2017 Venezuela. Violent protests (guarimbas), led by Leopoldo Lopez, sought to oust President Maduro, with 126 fatalities. The guarimbas ended after the elections for the National Constituent Assembly.

2017 Honduras. The U.S. supported an electoral coup by President Juan Orlando Hernández involving widespread electoral fraud and government killing of dozens in protests. The U.S. quickly recognized him as president and pressured other countries to do so also, even though the OAS itself had called for a new election.

2018 Nicaragua. U.S.-backed violent protests, supported by anti-FSLN media and social media disinformation campaigns, sought to remove President Daniel Ortega and the Sandinistas from power. After two months, public sentiment turned strongly against the violent protests and they disintegrated.

2018 Brazil. Former President Lula de Silva was the leading candidate to win the presidential election, but was imprisoned due to a lawfare operation of the U.S. and Brazil’s right-wing, using bogus corruption charges. Bolsonario won the election, aided by a large-scale fake news operation which sent out hundreds of millions of WhatsApp messages to Brazilian voters.

2019 Venezuela. In January, Juan Guaido declared himself president of Venezuela after U.S. Vice President Pence assured him of U.S. recognition. On April 30, the Guaido-Leopoldo Lopez’ planned uprising outside an air force base flopped. Later, a mercenary attack from Colombia failed to seize President Maduro in the presidential palace.

2019 Bolivia. The U.S. engineered a coup against Evo Morales, in part by using a social media campaign to make the false claim he stole the election. The OAS played a key role in legitimizing the coup. The disastrous coup government of Jeanine Anez lasted for just over one year.

2021 Cuba. The U.S. orchestrated and funded protests against the Cuban government in July and November. The U.S. sought to build a new generation of counter-revolutionary leadership by creating new “independent” press and social media platforms. These failed more miserably than the 2003 protests.

2021 Bolivia. In October, the right-wing tried to organize a coup and general strike, demanding the release of former President Anez who was now imprisoned. The attempt was only successful in Santa Cruz, the center of the Media Luna. Later, mass organizations led a rally, encompassing 1.5 million, to the capital to defend the MAS government.

2021 Peru. The right-wing oligarchy used lawfare unsuccessfully to unseat new President Castillo, a leader who emerged from the popular indigenous movement, seeking to remove him for being “permanently morally incapable.” However, a new lawfare case has been brought against President Castillo concerning “corruption.”

2021 Nicaragua. The U.S. planned to repeat the 2018 Nicaragua protests, combined with a concocted campaign that the Daniel Ortega government had imprisoned U.S.-financed opposition “pre-candidates” before the presidential election. This coup attempt failed but the U.S. and OAS refused to recognize the election results.

In 2022 we can expect the U.S. to continue “regime change” operations against Cuba, Nicaragua, Venezuela, Bolivia, Peru, and now Chile with the election of progressive President Boric.

https://mronline.org/2022/01/09/21st-century-u-s-coups-and-attempted-coups-in-latin-america/

Good guys? Heck the evidence points to the worst, evil nations in the history of the planet.
 
Russia is blowing up children right now.

China has separated hundreds of thousands of Uighur children from their parents. Forcibly sterilised an equivalent umber of women. Raped and tortured tens of thousands. Levelled sixteen thousand mosques.

On the contary Russia is taking far more care not to inflict harm on civilians, after all this land has historic ties to Russia and Russian people. Its the Nazis who care not about people being killed , of course their masters being the west means no surprise.

You can bring in China , Russia etc but the West's crimes cannot be compared to any other culture in history, not even close.

How many nations have China and Russia invaded in the last 20 or lets go 50 years compared to the West? Please answer this in detail.
 
European colonizers so often denied the humanity of the colonized people and committed genocides.

We have the largest mass murders in human history being committed in the past hundred years, all thanks to the "Western civilization"
 
Not only have the western nations used divide and rule, caused wars between nations and one of their favourite tactics to help this is installing or removing governments. South America has seen interference for decades now.



https://mronline.org/2022/01/09/21st-century-u-s-coups-and-attempted-coups-in-latin-america/

Good guys? Heck the evidence points to the worst, evil nations in the history of the planet.

What many Western Warmongering Government apologists fail to understand is that the West engages in war and regime change in the name of Freedom, Democracy, and Liberalism - however the West continues to LIE!

This is the difference between Empires of the past and today. Speak to an Italian, and they have no qualms in stating why the Romans wanted to conquer Europe. Speak to a German, they have no qualms in stating the goals of Hitler. Speak to the Chinese, and they have no qualms in stating the goals of China.

However speak to a Liberal Western, they lie about the goals of the Amreekan goals, and whitewash the history of the British Empire.
 
I have lived in dubai. Prefer usa. Can’t marry with locals, can’t start a business without a local partner, if you die in an acode the you are worth a lot less than a local. . Try taking a local to court for a legal matter. .yes a paradise on earth. But yes much better than Pakistan or India . Better than living in Canada , usa , UK. I don’t think so. Not a contest even. That’s why nobody here who cries about the west and can’t help sing praises of the gulf 24/7 is still living in the west . And they will never leave either .They will never leave considering all the benefits they describe gulf has better living standards, better to raise a family, tax free money . Please be honest and realistic.

For what it's worth I would agree with you on many of those points, I have always said I would find it difficult to live outside of a western country, but that is for cultural reasons as much as anything, my first language is English, that's a big factor. For others though, I can imagine the Gulf would be a great place to live. I never really understand why people want to slag it off on these boards, but I suppose it is a Muslim country so that's a good a reason as any.
 
What many Western Warmongering Government apologists fail to understand is that the West engages in war and regime change in the name of Freedom, Democracy, and Liberalism - however the West continues to LIE!

This is the difference between Empires of the past and today. Speak to an Italian, and they have no qualms in stating why the Romans wanted to conquer Europe. Speak to a German, they have no qualms in stating the goals of Hitler. Speak to the Chinese, and they have no qualms in stating the goals of China.

However speak to a Liberal Western, they lie about the goals of the Amreekan goals, and whitewash the history of the British Empire.

One of the signs of wickedness/evil is doing evil but claiming to be doing good.

Biden the so called leader of the so called free world recenetly. Note:this man cant go to the toilet by himself.

We also faced fundamental questions about the commitment to the most basic of principles. Would we stand up for the sovereignty of nations? Would we stand up for the right of people to live free from naked aggression? Would we stand up for democracy?

One year later, we know the answers.

Yes, we would stand up for sovereignty. And we did.

Yes, we would stand up for the right of people to live free from aggression. And we did.

And we would stand up for democracy. And we did.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing...as-brutal-and-unprovoked-invasion-of-ukraine/

There are humans out there who believe this. :))
 
Things have moved on - Golden Visas, Easy to start business in Bahrain etc

People from the West who come to the Gulf come for a year or so, and then stay for 20+ years earning tax free salaries. Excellent facilities, good schools - life is great and you get to hear the Azaan as well.
If all this was true then nobody who is complaining uhere would be still be living in the west. None of these people have left and will not leave . Is bahrain like rest of the gulf? Can you marry their women. Is it a democracy? Can you get citizenship? How are the schools of higher learning? Sorry but there is no comparison. Now is it better than the sub continent . Are desis happy living there compared to Pakistan / india yes. Am I happy for them. Hell yes. Would they love to the west or given a chance. In a heart beat . These are facts. Also for Americans nothing is tax free. You pay tax on foreign income :(
 
On the contary Russia is taking far more care not to inflict harm on civilians, after all this land has historic ties to Russia and Russian people. Its the Nazis who care not about people being killed , of course their masters being the west means no surprise.

You can bring in China , Russia etc but the West's crimes cannot be compared to any other culture in history, not even close.

How many nations have China and Russia invaded in the last 20 or lets go 50 years compared to the West? Please answer this in detail.

I don't know why I waste my fingers typing this as your mind is utterly shut. But come now. Remember those barrel-bombs in Syria? How Grozny was obliterated? Putin doesn't care about civilians, only his imperialist dream of Russian Empire 2.0. And once again you deny the Ukrainians their agency. They lean West because they know that the West will protect and uphold their human rights whereas Russia will not.

OK let's go back 20 years.

The only nations I can think of that "the West" invaded are Afghanistan and Iraq. The first was inevitable after 9/11, the second unnecessary. Libya was not invaded - but its air force was destroyed to prevent Gaddafi killing civilians with it. USA has also intervened in the war in Northwest Pakistan, the Somali Civil War, t5he Syrian Civil War and the ISIL War,

Russia invaded Georgia, Crimea and Donbas, and intervened in the Syrian Civil War.

China has usually avoided direct confrontation so far while building its forces, but has done the following:

Occupying Johnson Reef in 1988, Mischief Reef in 1995, Scarborough Shoal in 2012, changed the South China Sea’s geopolitical map without firing a shot, turning these into military bases.

In the Northern Indian region of Ladakh, China went beyond its usual practice of occupying vacant border spaces by snatching territories from right under India's nose, causing skirmishes and firefights.

In 2017, the PLA similarly captured the unoccupied and desolate Himalayan plateau of Doklam, which one of the world’s smallest countries, Bhutan, claims as its territory.

In Nepal, ruled by a pro-Beijing communist government, a recently leaked internal report warned that the country was losing border territories to China’s construction projects, which it said were also changing the course of rivers.

In the East China Sea, China has stepped up incursions into the Japanese-administered Senkaku Islands’ territorial waters and airspace, with the aim of weakening Japan’s control and strengthening its own sovereignty claims. US and UK fleet carrier deployments in the South China and East China Seas are intended as a show of force to prevent further such expansionism, as is the sale of nuclear attack submarines to Australia under AUKUS.

If you want to cite this as evidence that Russia and UK are somehow less evil and imperialist than the West then go for it. Personally all I see is conflicts of interests between world power blocs. I'm on the side of the Western bloc because that's where I live and because it safeguards my human rights and right to vote whereas Russia and China don't to their citizens. You won't see forced sterilisation of 500K women in any Western nation.
 
For what it's worth I would agree with you on many of those points, I have always said I would find it difficult to live outside of a western country, but that is for cultural reasons as much as anything, my first language is English, that's a big factor. For others though, I can imagine the Gulf would be a great place to live. I never really understand why people want to slag it off on these boards, but I suppose it is a Muslim country so that's a good a reason as any.

I'd be very happy to work there for a year or two. I wouldn't want to retire there. I'd like to retire to the Canaries. Warm all year round and with interesting landscapes, and European values.
 
I don't know why I waste my fingers typing this as your mind is utterly shut. But come now. Remember those barrel-bombs in Syria? How Grozny was obliterated? Putin doesn't care about civilians, only his imperialist dream of Russian Empire 2.0. And once again you deny the Ukrainians their agency. They lean West because they know that the West will protect and uphold their human rights whereas Russia will not.

OK let's go back 20 years.

The only nations I can think of that "the West" invaded are Afghanistan and Iraq. The first was inevitable after 9/11, the second unnecessary. Libya was not invaded - but its air force was destroyed to prevent Gaddafi killing civilians with it. USA has also intervened in the war in Northwest Pakistan, the Somali Civil War, t5he Syrian Civil War and the ISIL War,

Russia invaded Georgia, Crimea and Donbas, and intervened in the Syrian Civil War.

China has usually avoided direct confrontation so far while building its forces, but has done the following:

Occupying Johnson Reef in 1988, Mischief Reef in 1995, Scarborough Shoal in 2012, changed the South China Sea’s geopolitical map without firing a shot, turning these into military bases.

In the Northern Indian region of Ladakh, China went beyond its usual practice of occupying vacant border spaces by snatching territories from right under India's nose, causing skirmishes and firefights.

In 2017, the PLA similarly captured the unoccupied and desolate Himalayan plateau of Doklam, which one of the world’s smallest countries, Bhutan, claims as its territory.

In Nepal, ruled by a pro-Beijing communist government, a recently leaked internal report warned that the country was losing border territories to China’s construction projects, which it said were also changing the course of rivers.

In the East China Sea, China has stepped up incursions into the Japanese-administered Senkaku Islands’ territorial waters and airspace, with the aim of weakening Japan’s control and strengthening its own sovereignty claims. US and UK fleet carrier deployments in the South China and East China Seas are intended as a show of force to prevent further such expansionism, as is the sale of nuclear attack submarines to Australia under AUKUS.

If you want to cite this as evidence that Russia and UK are somehow less evil and imperialist than the West then go for it. Personally all I see is conflicts of interests between world power blocs. I'm on the side of the Western bloc because that's where I live and because it safeguards my human rights and right to vote whereas Russia and China don't to their citizens. You won't see forced sterilisation of 500K women in any Western nation.

Japan should be the counterweigt to China's ambition, unfortunately since they got nuked they don't really have much agency to protect their territory. As for Bhutan or Nepal, let them sort it out between themselves, it's halfway across the world, it shouldn't be our fight, or the USA's for that matter.
 
I don’t and have never defended the despicable and hateful terrorist organisations (and governments) of the ME. They have committed countless atrocities too, especially on their own people.

The point is that half the planet has been deluded into believing the “War on Terror” is a fight between extremist terrorists motivated by religion (evil, hate-mongering, backwards) and a noble West (progressive, liberal, spreading democracy and freedom, protecting its homeland).

I’m not in the business of counting and comparing deaths, both sides are pure evil. But I can assure you, any list on Western countries pales in comparison to the casualties they’ve inflicted on the rest of the world. The civilian death toll in the Iraq war alone was approximately 35x that of 9/11. What does it look like when we include Afghanistan, Syria, Pakistan, Yemen, Libya, Kuwait, Nigeria, Iran, Cameroon, Mali, Kenya, Ethiopia etc etc etc etc

https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians

Would you term this self defence? Would you term this a proportionate response? Why is it that we have decided only the Muslim side is motivated by hateful ideology?
Thank you for a respectful and thoughtful response. Pleas find one post I have put supporting western foreign policies . There are none. This thread is about,now that west is the only evil ever. I am saying if you go back in history you will learn all empires are evil. That’s how they became an empire . They all have blood on their hands . This is not something unique to the west . Examples are too ma y to give. But I will give just one, timor the conqueror killed 5 percent of the world population . 17 million people .he called himself the sword of Islam. That’s a staggering number . we can also go In detail of the crimes of ottomans, Japanese and so on. Regarding your other point about war on terror and the USA being the champion of freedom is total crap. I don’t believe that. But that’s how empires propaganda works . All empires have done it. I don’t agree with one of your points completely. All this violence in the Middle East, religion has to be held responsible also. Not for everything. But to say religion did not play a part at all is not true .
 
On the contary Russia is taking far more care not to inflict harm on civilians, after all this land has historic ties to Russia and Russian people. Its the Nazis who care not about people being killed , of course their masters being the west means no surprise.

You can bring in China , Russia etc but the West's crimes cannot be compared to any other culture in history, not even close.

How many nations have China and Russia invaded in the last 20 or lets go 50 years compared to the West? Please answer this in detail.

Timor the conqueror killed 17 million people.
 
For what it's worth I would agree with you on many of those points, I have always said I would find it difficult to live outside of a western country, but that is for cultural reasons as much as anything, my first language is English, that's a big factor. For others though, I can imagine the Gulf would be a great place to live. I never really understand why people want to slag it off on these boards, but I suppose it is a Muslim country so that's a good a reason as any.

If I may add. I am only saying it’s not comparable to the west . Almost everybody would prefer the west over the gulf. Us desis living in Pakistan or India would prefer gulf over our countries . People talking over here are only doing it because of hatred of the west and it’s not based on ground realities . That’s all I am saying. Also this is just an opinion/choice I prefer western values .
 
I'd be very happy to work there for a year or two. I wouldn't want to retire there. I'd like to retire to the Canaries. Warm all year round and with interesting landscapes, and European values.

I plan to retire in Spain also. Great country
 
Timor the conqueror killed 17 million people.

14th century, sure this has a been impcact on people now. Besides this one view , needs a lot more research.

Your heros killed from 30 million to 80 million natives in America but thats ok.
 
I don't know why I waste my fingers typing this as your mind is utterly shut. But come now. Remember those barrel-bombs in Syria? How Grozny was obliterated? Putin doesn't care about civilians, only his imperialist dream of Russian Empire 2.0. And once again you deny the Ukrainians their agency. They lean West because they know that the West will protect and uphold their human rights whereas Russia will not.

OK let's go back 20 years.

The only nations I can think of that "the West" invaded are Afghanistan and Iraq. The first was inevitable after 9/11, the second unnecessary. Libya was not invaded - but its air force was destroyed to prevent Gaddafi killing civilians with it. USA has also intervened in the war in Northwest Pakistan, the Somali Civil War, t5he Syrian Civil War and the ISIL War,

Russia invaded Georgia, Crimea and Donbas, and intervened in the Syrian Civil War.

China has usually avoided direct confrontation so far while building its forces, but has done the following:

Occupying Johnson Reef in 1988, Mischief Reef in 1995, Scarborough Shoal in 2012, changed the South China Sea’s geopolitical map without firing a shot, turning these into military bases.

In the Northern Indian region of Ladakh, China went beyond its usual practice of occupying vacant border spaces by snatching territories from right under India's nose, causing skirmishes and firefights.

In 2017, the PLA similarly captured the unoccupied and desolate Himalayan plateau of Doklam, which one of the world’s smallest countries, Bhutan, claims as its territory.

In Nepal, ruled by a pro-Beijing communist government, a recently leaked internal report warned that the country was losing border territories to China’s construction projects, which it said were also changing the course of rivers.

In the East China Sea, China has stepped up incursions into the Japanese-administered Senkaku Islands’ territorial waters and airspace, with the aim of weakening Japan’s control and strengthening its own sovereignty claims. US and UK fleet carrier deployments in the South China and East China Seas are intended as a show of force to prevent further such expansionism, as is the sale of nuclear attack submarines to Australia under AUKUS.

If you want to cite this as evidence that Russia and UK are somehow less evil and imperialist than the West then go for it. Personally all I see is conflicts of interests between world power blocs. I'm on the side of the Western bloc because that's where I live and because it safeguards my human rights and right to vote whereas Russia and China don't to their citizens. You won't see forced sterilisation of 500K women in any Western nation.

Good try Robert but to casually dismiss Iraq, where 500k children died as result of US polices before the invasion of 2003 is worse than anything you have written. Russia is no saint but they have a right to protect their borders. If the Chinese took over Mexico or Isle of White, you'd be the first calling for a bloody war.



Once you live by the same rules for youreself as you do for others, it might make sense to you.
 
14th century, sure this has a been impcact on people now. Besides this one view , needs a lot more research.

Your heros killed from 30 million to 80 million natives in America but thats ok.

The only difference between your argument and mine is I am not denying anything. I am saying all empires are evil. The mongols killed 11 percent of the world population. In todays context that would be 7-800 million people . Also please stop putting words in my mouth to make yourself more palatable.
 
The only difference between your argument and mine is I am not denying anything. I am saying all empires are evil. The mongols killed 11 percent of the world population. In todays context that would be 7-800 million people . Also please stop putting words in my mouth to make yourself more palatable.

Every empire has done wrong, but NO empire comes close to the HARM DONE TO THE SO MANY NATIONS as the west has done. Even a fool wouldnt debate this.

Its the WEST that claim they are the good guys. Accept your not, then no issue.
 
Once again you are wrong. The world is more global now. Hence the reach of empire is much bigger. However mongols managed to kill 11 percent of the worlds population .
 
Every empire has done wrong, but NO empire comes close to the HARM DONE TO THE SO MANY NATIONS as the west has done. Even a fool wouldnt debate this.

Its the WEST that claim they are the good guys. Accept your not, then no issue.

True, Western liberal order is a 300 year old liberal order, a virus that spread from Western Europe, genocided millions of Christians and Muslims via colonialism, and now is threatening the annihilation of the human race via transhumanism.
 
Thank you for a respectful and thoughtful response. Pleas find one post I have put supporting western foreign policies . There are none. This thread is about,now that west is the only evil ever. I am saying if you go back in history you will learn all empires are evil. That’s how they became an empire . They all have blood on their hands . This is not something unique to the west . Examples are too ma y to give. But I will give just one, timor the conqueror killed 5 percent of the world population . 17 million people .he called himself the sword of Islam. That’s a staggering number . we can also go In detail of the crimes of ottomans, Japanese and so on. Regarding your other point about war on terror and the USA being the champion of freedom is total crap. I don’t believe that. But that’s how empires propaganda works . All empires have done it. I don’t agree with one of your points completely. All this violence in the Middle East, religion has to be held responsible also. Not for everything. But to say religion did not play a part at all is not true .

This thread is not about the West being "the only evil ever", why not actually read the OP.

Now do one on western countries also.

You implied there was a comparison between what the West has inflicted upon others (for example the links I posted) and what has been inflicted on it, almost as if the sides were equal participants, which of course is nonsense, so you've now backed off that point and are saying all empires are evil.

That is actually a point I agree with and echoed in my first post on this thread. However, you and I are living right now, not during the Timor empire or Mongolian empire. Thus, why should we not be holding accountable those who are committing these atrocities right now? Instead, your first instinct is to encourage me to try tell both sides of a very one-sided affair. It seems I am not allowed to criticise the current ruling empire spreading destruction right now without first analysing every empire in 300,000 years of human history.

Regarding religion, I don't believe religion is inherently more at fault for violence than any other ideology that people will kill for, such as American capitalism, which as I've shown has taken far more lives in recent history that any religious ideology. Evil people will find anything to do their evil in the name of. ISIS bomb their own people in their disgustingly warped version of Islam, USA will massacre civilians in their version of democracy and freedom. I don't find the ideologies to be the root cause of these evils. Anyway I digress, this is not the relevant thread.
 
True, Western liberal order is a 300 year old liberal order, a virus that spread from Western Europe, genocided millions of Christians and Muslims via colonialism, and now is threatening the annihilation of the human race via transhumanism.

If it weren't for the West, we would be dropping like flies because of polio virus. I am forever grateful to the West for inventing the polio vaccine and saving our children. I have a cousin in pakistan who has polio and whenever I see her, I thank the West for bestowing us with such lifesaving medication. Imagine not having airplanes and going for Hajj on horses!
 
If it weren't for the West, we would be dropping like flies because of polio virus. I am forever grateful to the West for inventing the polio vaccine and saving our children. I have a cousin in pakistan who has polio and whenever I see her, I thank the West for bestowing us with such lifesaving medication. Imagine not having airplanes and going for Hajj on horses!

This is such a dumb point. When has anyone ever blamed the west for inventing airplanes? We love using technology when it serves a purpose. Planes are great when they are used for travel, not so great when they are bombing your cities.
 
Good try Robert but to casually dismiss Iraq, where 500k children died as result of US polices before the invasion of 2003 is worse than anything you have written. Russia is no saint but they have a right to protect their borders. If the Chinese took over Mexico or Isle of White, you'd be the first calling for a bloody war.

Once you live by the same rules for youreself as you do for others, it might make sense to you.

If Putin had USA’s economic power and military budget, he would be behaving in the same way as Bush 43.

There is no chance of either of those things about Mexico or IoW happening to let’s not debate impossibilities. This is your usual strawman tactic.

China could invade Taiwan, though. Vietnam and Indonesia are worried by their encroachment into the South China Sea. Australia too, hence purchase of the nuclear hunter-killers.
 
True, Western liberal order is a 300 year old liberal order, a virus that spread from Western Europe, genocided millions of Christians and Muslims via colonialism, and now is threatening the annihilation of the human race via transhumanism.

No. The Spanish and Portuguese invasions of South America killed 85% of their population before liberalism became a thing. Europe’s assault on the world derived from capitalism, not liberalism which is a creed of freedom from oppression.
 
Every empire has done wrong, but NO empire comes close to the HARM DONE TO THE SO MANY NATIONS as the west has done. Even a fool wouldnt debate this.

Through technology. Had the Caliphs got hold of gunpowder and steamships, they would have overrun the world and killed as many as the Europeans and Americans did. But their technological growth went into arrest after about 1200 CE.

Capitalism is the problem. And communism which killed 15 million Russians and Ukrainians in short order, and 40 million Chinese.
 
Through technology. Had the Caliphs got hold of gunpowder and steamships, they would have overrun the world and killed as many as the Europeans and Americans did. But their technological growth went into arrest after about 1200 CE.

Capitalism is the problem. And communism which killed 15 million Russians and Ukrainians in short order, and 40 million Chinese.

Why do assume the caliphs would have done this.? Historically we look at two major golden ages the ummayads in al andalus and the abbasid golden age. As far as I know neither were famous for mass killing and mass slaughter. They had the means at that time to slaughter and burn. They didn't. Genghis khan and the franks on the other hand did.

That has always been a European or Mongol speciality.

The sheer numbers killed by the British make it one of the most evil empire to ever exist and their colonisation policies. Overall European colonisatio has been onevof the evilest projects in the history of the world.
 
If it weren't for the West, we would be dropping like flies because of polio virus. I am forever grateful to the West for inventing the polio vaccine and saving our children. I have a cousin in pakistan who has polio and whenever I see her, I thank the West for bestowing us with such lifesaving medication. Imagine not having airplanes and going for Hajj on horses!

I mean this is isn't the argument. Scientific progression is a story of humanities progression not just of the west. For example the Muslims could never have made their advancements without greek science and Hindu Mathematics.and the west couldn't have done what they did without Muslim Mathematics and Science.

Thus your example is irrelevant to the current topic. Vaccines were developed after the discovery of cow pox vaccines in the ottoman empire.

We are debating whether the claim that the west makes that they are the good guys is valid or not.

We are constantly bombarded with statements about western values and how others are backwards etc etc so we are testing the hypothesis in this thread.
 
Europe’s assault on the world derived from capitalism, not liberalism which is a creed of freedom from oppression.

Although we ought to remember that in the nineteenth century well-known liberals - J.S. Mills preeminent amongst them - supported the idea of empire as a legitimate governing form even as this seems to conflict with the claims of political inclusion that are often made in the name of liberalism.

Uday Mehta Singh, in his book Liberalism and Empire, goes so far to state that while not all liberals become imperialists, “the urge is internal to it.” He points to certain liberal assumptions paving the way for this: a belief in rationalistic certainties; the idea of ‘progress’ from savage to civilised states; a universalism which can in certain cases be an obstacle to understanding difference; and the belief in abstract principle that can be inattentive to local experience and attachments.

While I would not go so far as to say the urge is internal, it was clearly possible for liberals to reach different views on empire and for some to have seen no contradiction between liberalism and an endorsement of empire. In this regard there is also an interesting book by Jennifer Pitts: A Turn to Empire: The Rise of Imperial Liberalism in Britain and France. Pitts demonstrates the shift in liberal thought from scepticism and hostility in relation to empire amongst ‘liberals’ in the eighteenth century, to “determined” support, amongst nineteenth century liberals, of “European imperial expansion.”
 
Why do assume the caliphs would have done this.? Historically we look at two major golden ages the ummayads in al andalus and the abbasid golden age. As far as I know neither were famous for mass killing and mass slaughter. They had the means at that time to slaughter and burn. They didn't. Genghis khan and the franks on the other hand did.

That has always been a European or Mongol speciality.

The sheer numbers killed by the British make it one of the most evil empire to ever exist and their colonisation policies. Overall European colonisatio has been onevof the evilest projects in the history of the world.

Comparing like with like, no European states of around 800-1200 CE committed mass murder either.

Perhaps the industrial methods developed by the 19th century encouraged Europeans to think about humans as raw material. The Caliphs never got that far, before being subjugated.
 
Although we ought to remember that in the nineteenth century well-known liberals - J.S. Mills preeminent amongst them - supported the idea of empire as a legitimate governing form even as this seems to conflict with the claims of political inclusion that are often made in the name of liberalism.

Uday Mehta Singh, in his book Liberalism and Empire, goes so far to state that while not all liberals become imperialists, “the urge is internal to it.” He points to certain liberal assumptions paving the way for this: a belief in rationalistic certainties; the idea of ‘progress’ from savage to civilised states; a universalism which can in certain cases be an obstacle to understanding difference; and the belief in abstract principle that can be inattentive to local experience and attachments.

While I would not go so far as to say the urge is internal, it was clearly possible for liberals to reach different views on empire and for some to have seen no contradiction between liberalism and an endorsement of empire. In this regard there is also an interesting book by Jennifer Pitts: A Turn to Empire: The Rise of Imperial Liberalism in Britain and France. Pitts demonstrates the shift in liberal thought from scepticism and hostility in relation to empire amongst ‘liberals’ in the eighteenth century, to “determined” support, amongst nineteenth century liberals, of “European imperial expansion.”

Well old JSM thought that the order that empire brought somewhat ameliorated the violence down to establish it:

that imperialism may benefit those subject to it, and this can mitigate its evil; that it is easier to justify non-aggressive, empire-creating wars of conquest in response to aggression by barbarian powers; and finally, that civilized states are justified in engaging distant uncivilized peoples non-aggressively, even though the latter's aggressive tendencies mean that such engagement renders empire-justifying wars more likely.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...ce-of-empire/07BE63671BFA89CA2389067FE32068B7


…which would suggest that he approve of China’s current expansionist behaviour in terms of territory and control over others’ utilities.
 
Comparing like with like, no European states of around 800-1200 CE committed mass murder either.

Perhaps the industrial methods developed by the 19th century encouraged Europeans to think about humans as raw material. The Caliphs never got that far, before being subjugated.

I would dispute that. The occupation of jerusalem in 1099 is one massacre that comes to mind.
 
Allies unveil new details of nuclear submarine deal
US, UK and Australia agree on nuclear submarine project

The leaders of the US, UK and Australia have unveiled new details of their plan to create a fleet of next generation nuclear-powered submarines.

Under the Aukus agreement, Australia will first receive at least three nuclear-powered submarines from the US.

The allies will also work together to create a new fleet using cutting-edge technology, including reactors made by Rolls-Royce in the UK.

The pact is aimed at countering China's influence in the Indo-Pacific region.

Speaking with the other leaders in San Diego, California, US President Joe Biden stressed that the boats would not have nuclear weapons and would not jeopardise Australia's commitment to being a nuclear-free country.

Under the deal outlined on Monday, members of the Royal Australian Navy (RAN) will be embedded at US and UK submarine bases from this year to gain the necessary skills to use the submarines.

From 2027, the US and UK will base a small number of nuclear subs at a RAN base in Perth, Western Australia, before Australia buys three American Virginia-class submarines in the early 2030s - with options to purchase two more.

After that, the plan is to design and build an entirely new nuclear-powered submarine for the UK and Australian navies, called SSN-AUKUS.

This attack craft will be built in Britain and Australia to a British design, but use technology from all three countries.

The interim and future boats will give Australia submarines which can travel further and faster than its existing fleet, with cruise missiles that could strike targets on land and at sea.

...
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-64945819
 
[MENTION=139316]daytrader[/MENTION],

While I am glad that British shipbuilding jobs have been safeguarded by this AUKUS deal I am uncomfortable with the RN in the Pacific. We could get sucked into the coming China-Taiwan War. We should stick to our NATO brief in the North Atlantic and the Med.

But due to more failures in MoD procurement, we don’t have enough F-35s for our carriers and the USMC is making up the shortfall with their own jets. HMS Prince of Waleshas 200 US Marines on board. I guess the price for this help is to sail the South China Sea in support of Uncle Sam.
 
[MENTION=139316]daytrader[/MENTION],

While I am glad that British shipbuilding jobs have been safeguarded by this AUKUS deal I am uncomfortable with the RN in the Pacific. We could get sucked into the coming China-Taiwan War. We should stick to our NATO brief in the North Atlantic and the Med.

But due to more failures in MoD procurement, we don’t have enough F-35s for our carriers and the USMC is making up the shortfall with their own jets. HMS Prince of Waleshas 200 US Marines on board. I guess the price for this help is to sail the South China Sea in support of Uncle Sam.

I don't know how important this deal is to the UK economy though I'm certain even if it wasn't important, the UK would bid as Uncle Sam says. What makes me uncomfortable with this though is that this is the first time, in 6 decades, that nuclear technology from a nuclear weapons state to a non-weapons state is being transferred.
 
I don't know how important this deal is to the UK economy though I'm certain even if it wasn't important, the UK would bid as Uncle Sam says. What makes me uncomfortable with this though is that this is the first time, in 6 decades, that nuclear technology from a nuclear weapons state to a non-weapons state is being transferred.

Isn't the NPT about weapons only" The hunter-killers will be nuclear powered, but not nuclear armed as Australia won't allow those on her soil.
 
Isn't the NPT about weapons only" The hunter-killers will be nuclear powered, but not nuclear armed as Australia won't allow those on her soil.

It gives them access to naval reactors which basically can be used to develop arms. The NPT was developed when only nuclear armed nations had nuclear naval capabilities. This is a new scenario out of the NPT scope.

It's a loophole they exploited and are setting a bad precedent.
 
As said by multiple posters. There are no good guys. However, it cannot be denied that the West has made immense contribution to the progress of mankind.

Diseases which killed millions in the past are easily treatable. Average life expectancy has improved. Life in the modern world is far easier and comfortable than the past. We can talk about all the wars and nukes that killed millions but we cannot ignore billions who were saved by the advancement in medical science and technology. All credit goes to research and development made possible by west.

All things considered, everyone has blood on their hands but it is the West which has done more good than harm.
 
This is such a dumb point. When has anyone ever blamed the west for inventing airplanes? We love using technology when it serves a purpose. Planes are great when they are used for travel, not so great when they are bombing your cities.

He has raised a valid point. Science and technology has improved our lives significantly. It should be the biggest factor to consider when evaluating the West. Everything else is secondary.
 
Every empire has done wrong, but NO empire comes close to the HARM DONE TO THE SO MANY NATIONS as the west has done. Even a fool wouldnt debate this.

Its the WEST that claim they are the good guys. Accept your not, then no issue.

Because West was mostly in power and had the means to do so. You give that power to anyone and they will abuse it. How many people were killed in the world due to Pakistan, a nothing 3rd world country. In Bangladesh alone 3 million people were killed. You give US like power to Pakistan and the outcome will be far worse.
 
Because West was mostly in power and had the means to do so. You give that power to anyone and they will abuse it. How many people were killed in the world due to Pakistan, a nothing 3rd world country. In Bangladesh alone 3 million people were killed. You give US like power to Pakistan and the outcome will be far worse.

I have no idea what you write, it never makes sense.

Back on topic.

We have the British defence sec stating the American drone was in Int airspace, yet if a Russia drone was flying over the Gulf of Mexico he wouldnt be on this page.

One of the key traits of the bad guys, is lying. Nobody lies as good as the West apart from Israel.
 
TURKISH PARLIAMENT RATIFIES FINLAND’S NATO ACCESSION

Turkey’s parliament approved a bill on Thursday to allow Finland to join NATO, clearing the way for the country to become part of the Western defence alliance as war rages in Ukraine.

The Turkish parliament was the last among the 30 members of the alliance to ratify Finland’s membership after Hungary’s legislature approved a similar bill earlier this week.

President Tayyip Erdogan said earlier in March that Finland had secured Turkey’s blessing after taking concrete steps to keep promises to crack down on groups seen by Ankara as terrorists, and to free up defence exports.

Finland and Sweden asked to join NATO last year in response to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. But the process has been held up by Turkey and Hungary. The parliaments of all NATO members must ratify newcomers.

“NATO membership will strengthen Finland’s security and improve stability and security in the Baltic Sea region and Northern Europe,” the Finnish government said in a statement following the Turkish parliament vote.

ARY
 
Zambian Opposition Leader: US ‘Killed Our Leaders,’ Now They’re ‘Coming to Teach Us About Democracy’

"The killers of Patrice Lumumba, those who toppled Kwame Nkrumah, those who killed Nasser, those who killed Muammar Gaddafi, today are coming to teach us about democracy," explained Fred M’membe, president of the Socialist Party of Zambia, in a speech given March 23 at the International Forum on Democracy in Beijing.

https://sputnikglobe.com/20230401/z...g-to-teach-us-about-democracy-1109020715.html

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Zambian opposition leader slams Kamala Harris visit:<br><br>“A country that has killed so many of our leaders in Africa… the killers of Patrice Lumumba, those who toppled Kwame Nkrumah, those who killed Nasser, those who killed Gaddafi… today are coming to teach us about democracy.” <a href="https://t.co/wIDuc2eEhL">https://t.co/wIDuc2eEhL</a></p>— Wyatt Reed (@wyattreed13) <a href="https://twitter.com/wyattreed13/status/1641803657870995461?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 31, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Kamala Harris is visiting Africa on a charm offensive.

Its great to see Africa standing up to the USA.
 
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