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Are we seeing the decline of the phenomenon called Hashim Amla?

IndianWillow said:
80 tests is too few for batsmen in this era, that I agree.

For longer careers: During the last 40 tests, batsman A might be producing substandard output and might be reducing his team's chances of winning
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If that's the case then those extra 40 tests doesn't give you any extra brownie points. That should be obvious. That's why you could always see it in chunks to see how a player performed.

90 Tests
120 Tests
150 tests
so on....

We can always see if longevity is burden.

If a person has been a burden on his team in a certain period then off course that kind of longevity is useless. I was talking about when batsman is still producing world class output despite being past his prime years. As long as he is doing it, I think he is adding some brownie points on top of his best years.
 
Buffet said:
If you happen to play another 50 tests outside of your best 10 years and those 50 tests output is world class then why it won't matter? Surely, those world class 50 extra tests will help your team greatly. It's not like all teams are filled with 11 world class players.

Marshall played as much as other players used to play in his era and then maintained an extremely high standards in his entire career. That's why he is rated high. 376 wickets in 81 tests is not a low number for his era.
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Depends on the team you are playing for. Gavaskar played 125 tests playing in the era of Marshall. Kapil played 131. Sachin would not have played 200 tests as an Englishman or Kiwi or Lankan or Pakistani, for instance. 10-12 years of strong and consistent performance (minimum of 100 tests) should be enough to judge the true worth of a player. I may want to be remembered as a winner of few Grand slams in tennis, rather than winning the highest prize money by playing for 15 years - in a similar way, a decade of excellent performance with several notable performances should be good enough to prove your worth.
 
IndianWillow said:
Depends on the team you are playing for. Gavaskar played 125 tests playing in the era of Marshall. Kapil played 131. Sachin would not have played 200 tests as an Englishman or Kiwi or Lankan or Pakistani, for instance. 10-12 years of strong and consistent performance (minimum of 100 tests) should be enough to judge the true worth of a player. I may want to be remembered as a winner of few Grand slams in tennis, rather than winning the highest prize money by playing for 15 years - in a similar way, a decade of excellent performance with several notable performances should be good enough to prove your worth.
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It's enough yes. But I don't see how you can say that 20 years of greatness is not more valuable than 15. It absolutely is.
 
IndianWillow said:
Depends on the team you are playing for. Gavaskar played 125 tests playing in the era of Marshall. Kapil played 131. Sachin would not have played 200 tests as an Englishman or Kiwi or Lankan or Pakistani, for instance. 10-12 years of strong and consistent performance (minimum of 100 tests) should be enough to judge the true worth of a player. I may want to be remembered as a winner of few Grand slams in tennis, rather than winning the highest prize money by playing for 15 years - in a similar way, a decade of excellent performance with several notable performances should be good enough to prove your worth.
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I wasn't making a point about 10 years not being enough. I do think that 10 years of top cricket is enough to get into an ATG league. Point was 10 years of gun performance followed by many more years of good performance should get more credit. If it was so easy to do then many will do it. Yah, even for India, how many have done 100+ tests with gun performance? Or for Eng ,which plays lots of tests.

Sachin would have surely played 200 Tests if he had debuted at the same age for Eng. Eng plays too many tests and just 15-17 years would have taken him close to 200 tests. Anyway, I don't rate his 200 tests for number at all. 200 is a meaningless number in itself. He was good in his 170 odd tests and not really good in his last 20-30 Tests. But 170 gets more points from me when compared to 120 if other factors are comparable.
 
Why does every Amla thread get derailed? The topic is his alleged decline not if Sachin's last 50 tests were worth anything or not.
 
Got out thrice on the way to 7 (24) , caught behind twice and dropped at slips once.

Needs to come good during this series, looks completely out of sorts.
 
Also, I should add that a series defeat here could be the end of his rather ordinary tenure as Test captain. He is simply not a leader.
 
WC-Passion said:
Who do you reckon will become the captain after Amla?
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du Plessis perhaps, but his own form has been terrible. de Villiers has failed as captain as well, while the likes of Duminy etc. are fringe players in Test cricket.

It is a complicated situation for South Africa, where Amla bhai might as well be retained as captain due to lack of alternatives, which isn't an ideal situation either.

One thing is for sure - South Africa's reign as the premier Test team in the world is well and truly over; I won't be surprised if they drop out of the top 3 in 2/3 years.
 
dandapinda said:
His average is dropped to just above 50 .
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Some of his big fans here use the 50 average cut-off point as the mark of greatness in Test cricket, so if his average drops below 50, will they admit that he's not a great batsman?
 
Mamoon said:
du Plessis perhaps, but his own form has been terrible. de Villiers has failed as captain as well, while the likes of Duminy etc. are fringe players in Test cricket.

It is a complicated situation for South Africa, where Amla bhai might as well be retained as captain due to lack of alternatives, which isn't an ideal situation either.

One thing is for sure - South Africa's reign as the premier Test team in the world is well and truly over; I won't be surprised if they drop out of the top 3 in 2/3 years.
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I guess they'll have to choose one and keep them whether they have poor form or not, chopping and changing will only make SA even worse.
 
Mamoon said:
Some of his big fans here use the 50 average cut-off point as the mark of greatness in Test cricket, so if his average drops below 50, will they admit that he's not a great batsman?
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That's the funny thing about fanboys in their eagerness to bring down some other players they eventually spoils their own idols status.

I guess if his his avg drops below 50, they will start searching individual innings and compare it with others.
 
Mamoon said:
du Plessis perhaps, but his own form has been terrible. de Villiers has failed as captain as well, while the likes of Duminy etc. are fringe players in Test cricket.

It is a complicated situation for South Africa, where Amla bhai might as well be retained as captain due to lack of alternatives, which isn't an ideal situation either.

One thing is for sure - South Africa's reign as the premier Test team in the world is well and truly over; I won't be surprised if they drop out of the top 3 in 2/3 years.
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Did De Villiers ever captain the test team on a permanent basis ? Think it directly went from Smith to Alma
 
Mamoon said:
One thing is for sure - South Africa's reign as the premier Test team in the world is well and truly over; I won't be surprised if they drop out of the top 3 in 2/3 years.
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Completely agree..,their Golden generation is almost gone..once AB & Steyn gone in next few years SA will be done.

Only Sub continent teams/England and OZ can have large talent pools to sustain in long term from now onwards.
 
BeautifulGame said:
Did De Villiers ever captain the test team on a permanent basis ? Think it sent from directly from Smith to Alma
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No but he has been poor as captain in ODIs. Also, he's their best player and has to keep in Tests from time to time, I don't think they will like to burden him with Test captaincy. He wanted to be captain after Smith but CSA opted to go with the Gujrati.
 
dandapinda said:
Completely agree..,their Golden generation is almost gone..once AB & Steyn gone in next few years SA will be done.

Only Sub continent teams/England and OZ can have large talent pools to sustain in long term from now onwards.
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Their new players don't look good either, except for Rabada and de Kock, who hasn't found his feet in Tests yet but has the ability to be a star.

Replacing players like Smith, Kallis, Steyn and de Villiers is not easy - they are legends for South Africa.
 
Is Hashim Amla on the decline?

Mamoon said:
Their new players don't look good either, except for Rabada and de Kock, who hasn't found his feet in Tests yet but has the ability to be a star.

Replacing players like Smith, Kallis, Steyn and de Villiers is not easy - they are legends for South Africa.
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Kallis is the biggest hit...now they have 2 find 2 world class players to replace him which is next to impossible.(ok his bowling may not be world class...still it used to help)
 
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dandapinda said:
Kalinin is the biggest hit...now they have 2 find 2 world class players to replace him which is next to impossible.(ok his bowling may not be world class...still it used to help)
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Also Smith, one of the best opener and captain ever to play Test cricket. The guy was a true warrior.
 
Mamoon said:
Also Smith, one of the best opener and captain ever to play Test cricket. The guy was a true warrior.
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Smith also a SA legend,but he was somewhat offset by form of AB & Amla + emergence of Duplessis...but Kallis is totally different case.
 
dandapinda said:
Smith also a SA legend,but he was somewhat offset by form of AB & Amla + emergence of Duplessis...but Kallis is totally different case.
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They have big opening issues in Tests. de Kock has been an upgrade on him in ODIs but in Tests, they are lacking a quality opener.
 
dandapinda said:
That's one option...not sure what happened to Rilee Russow,dropped to middle order?
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Forgot about him, he is a very good talent as well along with Rabada and de Kock. He's in the squad but not playing in the first Test.
 
Mamoon said:
du Plessis perhaps, but his own form has been terrible. de Villiers has failed as captain as well, while the likes of Duminy etc. are fringe players in Test cricket.

It is a complicated situation for South Africa, where Amla bhai might as well be retained as captain due to lack of alternatives, which isn't an ideal situation either.

One thing is for sure - South Africa's reign as the premier Test team in the world is well and truly over; I won't be surprised if they drop out of the top 3 in 2/3 years.
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Although I agree with you but it would be tough for SA management to pick Du plessis over Devilliers for captaincy role as it would look like AB getting dumped for captaincy.The form of Du plessis doesn't do any good either.
 
santos11 said:
Poor opposition. Seems like he hasnt made a significant contribution against a major team since ages.
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Well first up, SA haven't played enough tests in last two years.Smith retired after Aus series at home. Then they played two test series in SL where Amla scored a match saving 139.Since then they played Zim(1 test), WI(3 test), Ban(2 test) and then India where Amla failed badly.So no good opposition to face for more than an year time before India series.
 
Ab Fan said:
Well first up, SA haven't played enough tests in last two years.Smith retired after Aus series at home. Then they played two test series in SL where Amla scored a match saving 139.Since then they played Zim(1 test), WI(3 test), Ban(2 test) and then India where Amla failed badly.So no good opposition to face for more than an year time before India series.
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So he needs to fire up in this series , its also SA's home series so
 
Someone in that SA line up now has to play the role which Clarke played during Australia's downfall post retirement of Ponting. And considering the current form, it has to be ABDV most likely.
 
After scoring a double hundred he's had 7 or 8 bad test matches in a row - it's hardly enough to say with any authority that he is on the decline.

His odi batting is still as good as ever and he's had a good 2015 in that format of the game and his T20 form is okay too.

The reports of Amla Bhai's decline have been greatly exaggerated.
 
Tendy averaged 20 in 2005-06

Lara 29 in 97-98

Punter 19 in 00-01
 
dandapinda said:
Smith also a SA legend,but he was somewhat offset by form of AB & Amla + emergence of Duplessis...but Kallis is totally different case.
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Smith played more meaningful knocks than the likes of Amla and even AB . Even Kallis though most of his career mostly inflated his stats , did play some very important innings in the last 2-3 years of his career .Those two where a big loss for SA & I dont think Amla+Duplessis+AB made up for that loss .
 
He should give up the test captaincy. He is a poor captain and I think the burden of captaincy is affecting his batting.
 
Amla and Cook are category 3 tier players who will reach dizzying heights in one season and have bad the next season.

Not in the league of Tendulkar, Lara and Ponting.

I can't believe I missed this thread.

A lot of upset people on Amla's performance lol !
 
Dr_Bassim said:
Amla and Cook are category 3 tier players who will reach dizzying heights in one season and have bad the next season.

Not in the league of Tendulkar, Lara and Ponting.

I can't believe I missed this thread.

A lot of upset people on Amla's performance lol !
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Disservice to Cook who has been scoring centuries in every country over the last 10 years, often against tough bowling attacks. He is better than Amla.
 
James said:
Disservice to Cook who has been scoring centuries in every country over the last 10 years, often against tough bowling attacks. He is better than Amla.
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Perhaps I was over indulgent.

But still Cook still needs to convince me he is Sanga class.
 
Regarding OP, Amla's batting style relies heavily on a settled mind, any sort of mental disturbance makes it difficult to execute such sophisticated cricketing shots. Captaincy, failures in the WC etc. have been too much of a burden on him, they've affected his batting clearly. He isn't the type who can take on the challenge and raises his game to the next level by doing so. Though he's tactically decent, he isn't a leader.

Needs to drop captaincy and perhaps even take a break from cricket for 3-4 months to refresh his brain and regather himself. His reflexes or hand-eye hasn't worsened because he's shown his old self in patches, just doesn't bat in a relaxed state as he used to in the past.

AB needs a break as well.
 
ChachaCricket said:
Regarding OP, Amla's batting style relies heavily on a settled mind, any sort of mental disturbance makes it difficult to execute such sophisticated cricketing shots. Captaincy, failures in the WC etc. have been too much of a burden on him, they've affected his batting clearly. .
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Too much fantasy.I guess this is what differentiate between truly great players are and good players.
 
All players go through this phase where things start going downhill. Amla will soon touch 7000 Test runs, and it seems that his peak days are over. Dravid averaged almost 60 for his first 9,000 runs..but things got worse as he got older. It is very hard to escape this phase.
 
ChachaCricket said:
Cook fails against tough bowlers every time.
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Cook has an away ton at Perth against Warne and McGrath;
An away ton at Galle against Murali;
Has one of the best ever records for an overseas batsman in India;
And had one of the highest ever scoring series away in Australia in 2010/11.

When has Amla done the above? Or close to the above?
 
ChachaCricket said:
Regarding OP, Amla's batting style relies heavily on a settled mind, any sort of mental disturbance makes it difficult to execute such sophisticated cricketing shots. Captaincy, failures in the WC etc. have been too much of a burden on him, they've affected his batting clearly. He isn't the type who can take on the challenge and raises his game to the next level by doing so. Though he's tactically decent, he isn't a leader.

Needs to drop captaincy and perhaps even take a break from cricket for 3-4 months to refresh his brain and regather himself. His reflexes or hand-eye hasn't worsened because he's shown his old self in patches, just doesn't bat in a relaxed state as he used to in the past.

AB needs a break as well.
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So Amla can't perform under pressure is basically what you're saying.
 
James said:
Cook has an away ton at Perth against Warne and McGrath;
An away ton at Galle against Murali;
Has one of the best ever records for an overseas batsman in India;
And had one of the highest ever scoring series away in Australia in 2010/11.

When has Amla done the above? Or close to the above?
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So two tons in a gazillion matches. That 2011 Australian side was mediocre to the bone. Amla has a superior record in India.

Cook can't play good fast bowlers. Always been found out against em. Harris, Johnson, Steyn, Asif, Amir you name em.

Don't even need to speak on Amla. His superior record speaks for itself. His test achievements are well known. Off the top of my head, 196 in Australia(averages 57 there), 311 against England(averages 75 there), 253* in India(averages 62), 127 vs peak Johnson.

There is no comparison between the two. Amla's going through a lean patch and this is nothing more than desperate attempt, a poor one at that. Amla's range of strokes and skill the bat is far superior to Cook's.
 
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Cook is a greater Test batsman than Amla bhai, but the latter takes it easily when you consider ODIs as well.

No doubt Amla bhai is more skilled, but Cook has bigger cojones than the former.
 
If he continues like this, his average may crash down to mid-40s by the end of 2016.
 
The whole SA team is in decline. They'll be in dire straits once de Villiers and Steyn retire. Don't see much quality in their young up and coming players tbh.
 
Amla doesn't seem to have adjusted too well to the loss of Smith and Kallis in the batting line-up. The quartet of Smith-Amla-Kallis-A.B helped each other a great deal to absorb the game pressure for a long period of time, and the loss of 2 of those in relatively quick succession is showing. Plus, Amla never seemed to me as mentally proficient enough to negotiate tough situations. Are we seeing another Ponting in the making? Average starting years --> Incredible purple patch ---> Steep decline(?).
 
Yet another abject failure when his team needed him the most.

He should step down.
 
don't forget Cook had a torrid 2 years and his career "ended" for some not too long ago
 
Anyways, he needs to step down.. Captaincy is not for everyone and nothing wrong with that. However I see no other suitable candidates with Faf's career also on the line
 
IndianWillow said:
Longevity is good, but I don't personally see anything in longevity beyond a certain threshold, eg 125 tests. 125, 150, 200, 300, 500, 1000 tests all should mean approximately the same whenever longevity is considered. Of course, 50, 60 and 70 are small numbers that fail the longevity test.
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What ? Really !
 
Lmao how is Cook better than Amla. Amla the ODI batsman has bottling issues. In Tests he has been comfortably ahead of Cook bar that 2010/11 purple patch. Has everyone forgot Cook didnt get a single test ton from 2013-2015. Amla was looking like a future ATG before this bad patch. Now its in doubt if this carries on for a couple more years. And those saying Amla hasnt turned up for SA. In Tests that is a joke and a blatant lie. His 2008 and 2010 tours of India he was outstanding. The 2012 series in England in the battle for the number 1 status. Amla led the way and dominated that English attack in their own backyard that very few have done. Amla also has a good record in Aus. On current form Cook is a better Test bat than Amla but overall Amla is better. It will be upto Amla to prove he isnt just a very good batsman but a great one.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk
 
Amla > Cook in Tests no material which way you spin it.

Amla is slightly better at playing spin and quite a bit better at playing pace. Also he has the ability to up the tempo in Tests, unlike Cook. Despite all this, he's only just better than Cook who's weakness outside the off stump has become his kryptonite.

PS : I loathe beards, so don't dare use that card on me for stating facts.
 
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