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Arundhati Roy : The violence in India is terrifying
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The contradiction is only in your head. It is your government that is responsible for building the temple not the Muslim's. Anyway it has nothing to do with Muslim's not being oppressed in your country so stop trying to divert the topic as usual.
What are you trying to say with "How is this possible in this day and age with the Indian Military in control of the region "? Are Muslim people stopping the RSS from responding? They can do so if they want, the point here is that Hindu internal problems does not mean Muslim's in your country are not suffering. Pointing to Hindu internal problems to prove Muslim's are not being oppressed is absurd.
Why don't you condemn the Indian genocidal army before asking for sympathy for the Pundit's? Kashmiris even with the Pundit's are still majority Muslim, remember that. You saying that the Pundit's were killed or forced to migrate by their coreligionists?
Why are you dragging Pak in to the Gujarat riots? You are the ones who is unable to justify why Pakistanis in India were burnt alive by Hindu fascists much more 26/11. First punish the murderers of the Samjhauta Express before expecting any sympathy from Pak. We have nothing to to with the Gujarat riots at all that is your internal matter. You are obviously confused with Muslim's and Pakistanis as being the same which is not true.
Every minority community in India is oppressed, the Hindu's extremists have a problem with people from all religions since Modi became PM. I am not checkin' out anything, there are millions of stories on the web! Pakistanis are not stopping you from building Ram Temple, if your own Muslim's are then don't blame us for that coz we are not their guardians. I am merely pointing out that they are oppressed in your country.
Why don't your visit NDTV.com yourself?. I don't see any Hindu's bring killed in the valley. Not saying that Pundit cleansing was a good thing but they have paid the price for their coreligionists killing the majority community in the valley.
One would have thought that it's common knowledge Kashmiris in IoK are being killed. Didn't think giving a date and time would be necessary.
You don't get it do you ? The point is very very simple .... if India is run by Militant extremist organizations ( Like you and others here alluded to) ... simple things like building a temple would have been accomplished a long long time ago no matter how strong the Muslim opposition. That is how things work in Pakistan NOT India. This is the difference between how Pakistan treats minorities as opposed to India. Issues like Godhra, Babri , Kashmir are a stark reminder of how much clout and freedom they have to do whatever they please.
Do you understand or should I break that down further ?
And nowhere did I accused Pakistan for Godhra riots.
I get it good and well bud! Let me make it clear that I am no defender of Indian Muslim's neither is it Pak's problem. Tell me when us Pakistanis have no problem in accepting we have a long way too go in respecting our minority community then why won't you do the same? Every day there is some minority issue going on in your country yet you seem to think India is a heaven for non Hindu's? What world do people like you live in? Not every BJP goon is a minority hater then there is the question of political correctness as well. The BJP is fully aware that if the temple is built by force it could lead to civil war in the country as well. How things work in India can be seen when Babri was demolished and the Golden Temple was desecrated, right?? Indian hypocrisy never ceases to amaze me. What? Godhra and Babri means Muslim freedom in India, are you serious? Yeah you'll need to break down something else now so how about the nearest Church? I did not say you accused Pak of the Gujarat riots but if you are not gonna do anything about the Samjhauta Express then don't lecture us on 26/11. Difference is in the former incident Pakistanis were killed by Hindu thugs in India.
Hindus are also not safe in india. Either all are safe or no one is safe. India has 2nd largest number of mosques in india. Pakistan dnt have. A muslim country where minoritu is seeking citizenship of india can never ever never even talk about secularism or think about teaching india tolerance. It seems like some carnivorous is teaching omnivorous to be herbivorous.it doesnt even look funny.
Whoever want to teach india make sure about themselves first that they dnt are 10x times worst than india.
Itachi
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I think it will be hard to believe for you but before 1980s, Kashmir was a peaceful place. But when there's terrorism going on, there occurs collateral damage.
I am from north east state which are as troubled as Kashmir. And we have went through similar chapter as Kashmir for decades where we lost people.
But, blaming the system doesn't help.
I asked you, to give examples atrocities happening across India which is on day to day basis.
Except Kashmir, you couldn't come up with other substance and which is understandable because in when a state is facing terrorism issues, there will be conflicts which could be manipulated to fit ones agenda.
Bingo !! now why don't you tell us how India finds itself in this position ? Quite a paradox isn't it? Considering your original basis that Minorities have been subjugated in India and that it is run by Hindu extremists. The only logical answer is the un-fettered Muslim pandering that is ongoing for decades to such an extent that people now fear another partition is bound to happen in our lifetimes. So contrary to your assertion that Muslims are subjugated and treated like filth they are pretty well placed to make their presence felt. This cannot happen if the majority and the Govt. are right-wing hardline extremists.
The Samjhauta Express case is in the hands of the courts.
pillionrider
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The only issue with Christians is their conversion groups. Personally I don't care as I find all religions as pointless as each other and if someone breaks out of the caste system by changing their religion, good for them.
Can't recall a single riot involving Christians and if there any of them complaining it could only be about not being able to eat beef in some states or if they're up to some golmaal vis a vis some conversion scam they're not able to pull money from.
Other than that, Christian groups have contributed immensely to healthcare and education and have always been Indians first before anything else.
So not sure what you've been reading.
Cpt. Rishwat
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BBC Article: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-35923237
Perhaps the BBC is also pandering to the indians ?
I would have thought the fact that the "ethnic cleansing" is put in quotation marks would give some clue that it's not accepted as a true reflection of what went on. But we can agree that there was a backlash against some Hindus during the turmoil of the Kashmir valley dispute, and tellingly the Muslims of the area said they regretted it and wanted them to come back. Many Hindus also stayed it seems which seems unlikely if it was a case of ethnic cleansing. In any case, regardless of what version of history you want to believe, you can't justify what is going on today by keep referring back to the `1990s.
Anything in quotes are the actual words spoken by Abdullah just as is the case with the last paragraph on that article (unless you think he did not say those words either in which you might as well say the entire article is a fabrication and that no such speech was made by Abdullah) :
He called for a more secular approach and an end to extremism. “If extremism grows, there will be no peace. This book should serve as an eye-opener to the pain and the agony of the Pandits who had to leave homes and move to distant places and face difficult situations. It is every man's desire to die and be laid to rest in their own homeland,”
back lashes dont result in 100s of thousands of people upping and leaving their homeland overnight.
The numbers of Hindu's that stayed back is soo small that it does not mean anything. The less said the better about their conditions.
What do you mean which version of history ? There is only one version - the one told by cold hard numbers. The point here is to shine the light on the crooks who have the cheek to propagate a narrative that is diametrically opposite to reality. Let me know if you want me to go further into the topic of the "World according to Muslims" .
Cpt. Rishwat
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By all means you can go further into the topic of the "World according to Muslims", but I suggest you start another thread so it doesn't look like you are trying to divert from what Roy is saying here. Even the Pandits in Kashmir is really just whataboutism at it's worst. Maybe you should do another thread on that if you want to discuss a topic from the 1990's, unless you feel that what happened then gives Hindus an open licence to persecute minorities as retribution.
So what if India has many Masjid's? That does not prove that Muslim's are safe moreover keep in mind your massive population as well. "A muslim country where minoritu is seeking citizenship of india can never ever never even talk about secularism or think about teaching india tolerance." What does this mean in English or is Modi your English teacher?? Pak does not claim or want secularism, what is this mince about majority in Pak wanting to be Indian? Rather majority of Indian's would crawl on their knee's to work in the Muslim Gulf or America in particular. You will also have to elaborate further on "Whoever want to teach india make sure about themselves first that they dnt are 10x times worst than india." drivel.
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I know Kashmir was once peaceful before the people vented their anger towards the occupiers. Exactly, so in a war of any sorts there will be casualties on both sides. You look upon the freedom fighters as terrorists where as they feel the same way towards your military.Why should I worry about your oother states where trouble is brewing? You must know about the red corridor, naxalites and the Khalistan movement. I don't check your news stories everyday coz I am not obsessed with India. The whole world knows that India has the highest number of separatist movements.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separatist_movements_of_India
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separatist_movements_of_India
What you talking about?? From one subject you swiftly move to another one with digesting any information or thinking what you are on about? There is no paradox at all boy! The truth is there for all to see clearly. So if the BJP does not build the Mandir fearing a reaction then that is there problem, right?? Now you will say something stupid like "200 million Muslim's are threatening the Mandir from being built" I stand by my views that minorities in India are always under threat, not only Muslim's but Sikhs and Christians as well. You seem unable to understand a simple point that 200 million people may be able to do a lot of damage yet it does not mean they are feeling safe and secure. Oh okay! We are thinking about 26/11 as well and will let you know accordingly! Even right wing Hindu nutcases have to be politically correct.
They Christian population of India is far less then the Muslim's. Secondly, India full well understands that to remain on good terms with the most powerful west it can not be seen as being anti-Christian. This does not apply to Muslim's who are already bombarded by the west and at an all time low. Christian''s of today do not have any specific eating habits which is why they can not be targeted by those hell bent on changing others eating habits. I don't want to provide video's of Christians being beaten up in India unless you insist.
And how exactly is a supposedly subjugated helpless minority able to achieve that ?
Subjugated and oppressed communities by definition aren't capable of civil war.
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What? So subjugated communicates can't make war is that what you are saying? Rather the opposite is true that oppressed people who have nothing to lose are more dangerous then anything or anyone else. Oh yes they are fully capable of creating complete mayhem. We see that in IoK every day! Now don't tell me they are not subjugated. I believe you were the poster who wanted evidence that oppression of minorities is a daily way of life in India.
So since there are no such things happening in Pakistan therefore Hindus and Christians are not subjugated then in Pakistan?
If you believe this happens every day in India then you must also similarly believe that blacks are persecuted on a daily basis in America .
A country that has a disproportionate no.of Sikhs in its armed forces in top positions, numerous non-hindus who were Presidents and top ministers is being questioned by a Pakistani poster a country that does not allow non-Muslims to get anywhere near such top positions. Heck di you even allow them in Military as soldiers? Laughable.
I did not say Pak treats it's minorities well, did I? It is your India's who think you are some example to humanity when it comes to human rights, NOT! Yes blacks in America probably all suffer racism every day just that every incident is not reported. We have plenty of non Muslim's doing okay in Pak like Deepak Perwani, late Justice Bhagwandas and many top models and even actors now. There are non Muslim soldiers in the military as well just that we don't make a song and dance about it like you do. You need to do some impartial research. https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...he-basis-of-religion/articleshow/64638444.cms Like a typical Indian you are brainwashed by your media in to thinking what Pakistan supposedly is.
Where did I say that? Your fertile imagination is not my problem. All Iam saying is most of the high profile attrocities on Muslims are self inflicted.
For example - if Muslims are stupid enough to torch a train full of Hindus ( small children in it ) in broad daylight you will get owned and quite badly. This is not Mughal zamana. Entirely a problem created by Muslims and any discussion on such matters should first concentrate on the perpetrators.
Instead in India we have people like Arundhati Roy who are absolute masters at turning this around and making it a Hindu problem. Infact these people have substantial following and are free to express their views which cannot happen if the Majority community were so intolerant and oppressive as you would like to paint. This is the gist of my point. Clear ?
A country that discriminates Blacks regularly cannot vote a Black man ( that too with a Muslim father !! ) as a president - TWICE !! Logic fail here. This is the same sort of tenuous logic that you use to claim that a completely subjugated community can spring a civil war that too in a country like India which has a strong Military and para-military forces ruled by BJP. Sorry but I see no reasonable discussion possible with someone with such dubious logic.
IF Non-Musliims are doing ok and not discriminated against then why are their numbers drastically reduced from since Partition in Pakistan ? I don't need any Indian media brainwashing to tell me whats happening there. Its a simple matter of logical deduction.
Did I ever say that India is free of violence against minorities ? Why do you keep posting these articles ? I can similarly post much larger atrocities committed by Muslims in India against Hindus. what then ?
and why are you using Indian media articles to make your points and at the same time you have the gall to blame the same Indian media using their own articles ? lol
Regarding that article - Do you think that such discrimination happens on a daily basis every where all the time in India ? Use some brains bhai !! Because if so then we wouldnt have had Top A-List celebrities like Pataudi,Azharuddin, Zaheer Khan, Sharukh Khan, Amir Khan, Salman Khan in India.
the only person that I recognize there is Kaneria but lets compare that to what happened in Indian Cricket ... I can actually put up a strong Non-Hindu Indian Test XI with 5 players who went on to captain including 2 Muslim Captains !! Note the no-of Tests that they have played listed next to their names with Hazare having played the least due to the circumstances of his times. Shami will play quite a bit more cricket.
1. NS Sidhu - 51
2. Umrigar - 59 - Captain
3. Engineer - 46
4. Azhar - 99 - Captain
5. Hazare - 30 - Captain
6. Pataudi - 46 - Captain
7. Kirmani - 88
8. Harbhajan - 103
9. Bedi - 67 - Captain
10. Zaheer Khan - 92
11. Shami - 30
People i left out :
1. Pathan
2. Kaif
3. Surti
4. Contractor - Captain
5. Munaf
6. Maninder
7. Wasim Jaffer
8. Abid Ali
9. Durrani
10. Binny
11. Sandhu
12. Ghulam Ahmed - Captain
etc etc etc
The point is that this is not possible at all if the majority soo intolerant and hostile towards the minorities. It just aint happening. Try doing the same for Pakistan and you wont get further than 5 players. This is the difference. And dont even get me started on minority representation in Military. India has had numerous Sikh and Christian top ranked ( 4 Star and above ) officers that I cannot even remember all of their names.
Do you understand the point or you going to produce another article of violence/discrimination against Minority and claim India treats its minorities badly ?
When you troll you will get called for it. I mean here in this thread you are calling the Pandit ethnic cleansing as "whataboutism". No serious or reasonable discussion is possible after that.
Iam ok with that and will actually outgun you on that side too. Just dont go around crying to your bum-buddies. Decide and let me know how you want to proceed.
You and your India have far greater problem then my imagination. Have you not heard of the recent beatings by Hindus or is that a dream as well? Stop making lame excuses to justify your intolerance. Firstly I am no lover of your Muslim's yet smart enough to realise that no minority community would instigate violence upon itself by burning a majority passenger train. I do not believe your Muslim's did that rather it was orchestrated to justify the violence that was later perpetrated on them.
You will naturally have a problem with anyone who points out Hindu fascism like Arundhati Roy, it is so very natural. What she is saying is very true yet you continue to deny to save your behind. Babri and Bluestar must also be a good dream turned in to a nightmare by some biased Hindu hater as well, right?. The doodh peete Hindu's never instigate violence at all as taught by your great Gandhi!
You seem to immature to understand simple facts! Appointing Obama does not mean discrimination against Blacks is not a regular occurrence in the USA when the opposite is true. Wonder how many in the country were called the N word today or does that not qualify as abuse in your narrow mind? Oh wait a minute just coz it went unreported means all is good and well in your ridiculous book pf fantasies.
"Sorry but I see no reasonable discussion possible with someone with such dubious logic." Then why did you write a zillion lines if I did not make you look in the mirror? A five your old has more logic then replying to a mail they see no sense in! Have a look at the size of your country before you compare it to Pak before running your mouth. The vast majority of Hindu's in Pak were always in East Pakistan had you cared to use your head. Not saying Pak is a heaven for Hindu's or Sikh's yet I have never witnessed open genocide of minorities like in India either. Indian Muslim's have a higher birth rate as well compared to the rest which is another reason their community grows faster.
I keep posting so you know that India is not the paradise you think it is, okay? You gotta problem then don't read them! I know you have some successful Muslim's then again keep in mind your population as well. Fact is that you have general Hindu/Muslim problems as Jinnah saheb had predicted where both communities dislike each other. There are fanatics in both communities like Yogi Adityanath and Zakir Naik hell bent in converting the other group. See I defuse your attacks on Pak by admitting our faults where as doing the exact opposite leaves you wide open.
Out of a population of 200 million Muslim's you point out 20 odd Muslim Cricketers!! Minorities in Pak are generally not in to Cricket for whatever reason that does not mean they are always suffering. Karachi has a strong Hindu community. You do treat your minorities badly and so do we that is a FACT no matter how hard you scream! In conclusion, keep in mind that the vast majority of Muslim's in your country live in appalling conditions unsuitable for human beings. Yes, Hindu-Muslim violence is the greatest threat to your country though admittedly both sides can instigate violence. Admit FACTS instead of fighting them as confession is good for the soul. By the way Obama was a Christian, not Muslim. Shows how much you know!
Ahh I see so Hindus burnt their own people first - 60 of them including small children and women - in order to target Muslims ... makes perfect sense ... NOT !!
And all along I thought I was debating with a reasonable sensible individual ..
I suppose the Pandits were similarly kicked out by their own ?
The numerous incidents of Terror in the last 20-25 yrs in which 100s of people were killed were all orchestrated by the evil Hindus so that they can lay the blame on Muslims?
Sacred Hindu temples were destroyed by Hindus for same reasons ?
The concern I have is how do you guys live ? Don't you feel stupid in your head for subscribing to such brazenly attrocious conspiracy theories ? This is just an utter disgrace to the concept of human evolution, intelligence and brain power. If this is how educated internet savvy people are then just wonder what utter hideous theories the avg illiterate person on the street might subscribe to !!! Shocking !
[MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION]
[MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION]
Ahh I see so Hindus burnt their own people first - 60 of them including small children and women - in order to target Muslims ... makes perfect sense ... NOT !!
And all along I thought I was debating with a reasonable sensible individual ..
I suppose the Pandits were similarly kicked out by their own ?
The numerous incidents of Terror in the last 20-25 yrs in which 100s of people were killed were all orchestrated by the evil Hindus so that they can lay the blame on Muslims?
Sacred Hindu temples were destroyed by Hindus for same reasons ?
The concern I have is how do you guys live ? Don't you feel stupid in your head for subscribing to such brazenly attrocious conspiracy theories ? This is just an utter disgrace to the concept of human evolution, intelligence and brain power. If this is how educated internet savvy people are then just wonder what utter hideous theories the avg illiterate person on the street might subscribe to !!! Shocking !
[MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION]
[MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION]
You are indeed talking to a man with good insight. Yes to instigate violence Hindu's killed their own or should i say that it was an inside job. There is no reason why Muslim's would do so knowing the massive reaction that would follow after such an incident where they would be the victims which you are saying.
Now you are just making things up for the sake of sounding sarcastic, not! Muslim's in Kashmir have indeed forced the Hindu's out with their extremism as well and have attacked temples as well. I give a balanced view unlike your one sided and biased baloney. So everything that challenges your narrow mind is a conspiracy theory, right? That Iraq had weapons of mass destruction was also true as Bushy said before apologising after killing 2 million people! CNN, Fox News etc are the real truth tellers because they air to billions of people around the world so should never be questioned . I pity people like you too whom anything shiny looks like gold, I really do. The anchor in the video himself says that Hindu-Muslim tension in India are a threat to the union but to you it's all lies!
If you are sensible individual what will it take for you to accept that the Godhra train torching was done by Muslims ?
why dont you start by pointing out where I even deny the fact that there are major issues between Hindus and Muslims in India? I see you doggedly keep regurgating that point despite me clearly stating otherwise ?
Ignoring something is generally seen as acceptance. So accept that India has major Hindu-Muslim problems instead of giving me a list of a 100 Indian Cricketers!!. Where have you previously stated that India has Hindu-Muslim problems? Logic dictates that a poor and oppressed community will not attack the powerful one when they will gain nothing from it. Similarly, you will never accept that Hindu's were responsible either.
I have never denied that problems exist between the 2 community. The discussion is who are the main instigators. I see you did not answer my question on Godhra perpetrators or Temple destruction or the numerous terror attacks ?
The list of cricketers was in response to your claim that Pakistan treats Minorities better or same. That is just a blatant lie.
Right in the first few posts in this thread. The very fact that I listed 3 major unresolved conflicts in my first post alludes to that.
But Muslims are not the poor and oppressed lot like you like to paint using selective media articles. Using your logic I can also similarly paint a different picture.
So back to the main question - what will it take for you to accept that the Godhra train burning was done by Muslims ?
Can't you read? See my above mail's where I have said Hindu's were responsible for Godhra as they needed a reason for communal rioting. It's not my fault that you are unaware of non Muslim Pakistani celebrities as you admit yourself! Moreover, just coz they are not celebrities does not mean they are always treated poorly. Once again your Muslim's are more successful as your population is ten times more then ours!
Oh I see you mentioned that there are some Hindu Muslim problems then blame Muslim's for Godhra before pointing towards successful Muslim actors and Cricketers. Make up your mind as you seem confused big time. On the contrary what will be required for you to accept that Hindu fanatics were responsible for Godhra like they were for Samjhauta Express?. This is why all of India is upset over Priyanka Chopra's character in some American programme saying Hindu's frame Muslim's after such attacks.
Muslim's in your country by and large are always living on the margin in dirt poor conditions. They are malnourished and uneducated.
Ahh I see so Hindus burnt their own people first - 60 of them including small children and women - in order to target Muslims ... makes perfect sense ... NOT !!
And all along I thought I was debating with a reasonable sensible individual ..
I suppose the Pandits were similarly kicked out by their own ?
The numerous incidents of Terror in the last 20-25 yrs in which 100s of people were killed were all orchestrated by the evil Hindus so that they can lay the blame on Muslims?
Sacred Hindu temples were destroyed by Hindus for same reasons ?
The concern I have is how do you guys live ? Don't you feel stupid in your head for subscribing to such brazenly attrocious conspiracy theories ? This is just an utter disgrace to the concept of human evolution, intelligence and brain power. If this is how educated internet savvy people are then just wonder what utter hideous theories the avg illiterate person on the street might subscribe to !!! Shocking !
[MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION]
[MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION]
Just a note about Arundhati Roy. She became internationally famous by writing a book about how certain communities were victims in India. Negative views about India have a ready audience among a culturally influential group of people in the West. That is a fact, and the best way to deal with it is to ignore such people.
Also you are probably not going to make much headway by presenting facts here.
Greenstorm
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Can you give us that privilege as well before quoting Washington Post etc ?
Fair enough.
In another thread I quoted data from the real world to contradict Reuters opinion poll about the safety of women in India. If you have data that contradicts Washington Post's reporting, please share. Reporting such as Major Generals are given 50 acres of land (Indian Major Generals do not even get an acre), Fauji Foundation being a major corporate entity etc.
The media is full of lies everywhere. It is often not even explicit lies but effectively lies when they choose not to report news that doesn't suit their worldview. One has to read from diverse sources to see patterns and get closer to the truth.
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