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Asad Shafiq/Azhar Ali - Better Test batsmen than Virat Kohli?

Hawkeye

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For the last few years, Pakistan's premier young Test bats have been on a steady rise. They're at their peak now after a good show in England.

Kohli, on the other hand, started off as brilliant but then England happened. After that he's been on and off, did well in SA/Aus but couldn't keep up consistency.

Now he isn't doing too good again even at his home.

How do they compare currently? Let's not confuse with other formats.

Our wins have seen important contributions from Azhar/Shafiq. Kohli, maybe, haven't closely followed.
 
We have to see how Azhar and Asad do in Australia first.

Then we'll be able to judge that.
 
Personally i would say no until Australia. I just hold that and SAF above england for tests of Asian Batsmen.

Though i loved shafiqs and azhars centuries in England brilliant players
 
Aussie pitches are flat pancakes which is why kohli scored those runs. But to OP yes they are much better than kohli in tests.
 
Not at the moment ... Kohli scored 4 tons in Australia and couple against SA in SA ... He's just struggled in England ... If Azhar and Shafiq perform in Australia then it becomes a legit conversation. Though Shafiq does have 2 tons against SA himself 1 in SA & 1 in UAE.

Kohli > Shafiq > Azhar
 
Quoting an earlier post:

Against non-minnows away from home (excluding Zimbabwe, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and West Indies)

Kohli averages 48.84 with 7 centuries over 17 matches http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...orderby=default;template=results;type=batting

Shafiq averages 36.25 with 2 centuries over 9 matches http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...orderby=default;template=results;type=batting

Azhar Ali averages 29.60 with 1 century over 13 matches http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...orderby=default;template=results;type=batting

If you include Sri Lanka, the difference is still very wide.

Someone mentioned that Kohli doesn't have that much impact in home matches. That is true but compare Indian pitches with UAE ones where Cook and Malik are scoring double hundreds.
 
Kohli is a better batsman at the moment. This can change if Azhar and Asad have a good tour of Australia.
 
We have to see how Azhar and Asad do in Australia first.

Then we'll be able to judge that.

Personally i would say no until Australia. I just hold that and SAF above england for tests of Asian Batsmen.

Though i loved shafiqs and azhars centuries in England brilliant players

Not sure why we're giving so much importance to Aus flat decks.

While it's true they should perform on that tour, it's no more a real 'test' of batsmen from the subcontinent.
 
Quoting an earlier post:

Against non-minnows away from home (excluding Zimbabwe, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and West Indies)

Kohli averages 48.84 with 7 centuries over 17 matches http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...orderby=default;template=results;type=batting

Shafiq averages 36.25 with 2 centuries over 9 matches http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...orderby=default;template=results;type=batting

Azhar Ali averages 29.60 with 1 century over 13 matches http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...orderby=default;template=results;type=batting

If you include Sri Lanka, the difference is still very wide.

Someone mentioned that Kohli doesn't have that much impact in home matches. That is true but compare Indian pitches with UAE ones where Cook and Malik are scoring double hundreds.

Selective stats. Both PAK bats didn't really have a great start, and includes the poor SA tour too.

We've come a looong way since then. Plus, Pak didn't have the privilege of playing so many away tours, while India did have it. More chances of acclimatization to conditions.
 
Last time I checked, Kohli has 8 tons outside of Asia against non-minnows. I think only SRT, Gavasker, Dravid and Miandad have more tons. All that in 24 tests by Kohli.

Nope, he is not in leagues of other 4 names here, but how many tons likes of Azhar or Asad have outside of Asia? Pitches in India is far more difficult to score than UAE. Asad or Azhar have scored in UAE, let's see how many tons they get outside.
 
Shafiq is decent batsman in tests, but Kohli has much more potential and superior stat wise as well. Azhar is a very limited batsman, who blocks quite a lot in tests, Kohli at the other end is active at the crease and has a superior technique to Azhar.

Shafiq and Azhar are better in grinding though
 
They're all in the same group, behind Kane, Smith and Root, as far as emerging batsmen go. Azhar and Shafiq are just as good as the likes of Kohli, Pujara and Rahane, if not better.
 
Why is Kohli the gold standard for judging batsmen in Test cricket? Think we need to aim better.

Question really is whether the 2 are any closer to Joe Root in caliber?
 
They're all in the same group, behind Kane, Smith and Root, as far as emerging batsmen go. Azhar and Shafiq are just as good as the likes of Kohli, Pujara and Rahane, if not better.

Rahane is clearly better of lot in terms of test performance.
 
Why is Kohli the gold standard for judging batsmen in Test cricket? Think we need to aim better.

Question really is whether the 2 are any closer to Joe Root in caliber?

I think Kane Williamson should be benchmark for every batsman. They guy literally scores anywhere. Root is a bit of home bully.
 
Last time I checked, Kohli has 8 tons outside of Asia against non-minnows. I think only SRT, Gavasker, Dravid and Miandad have more tons. All that in 24 tests by Kohli.

Nope, he is not in leagues of other 4 names here, but how many tons likes of Azhar or Asad have outside of Asia? Pitches in India is far more difficult to score than UAE. Asad or Azhar have scored in UAE, let's see how many tons they get outside.

Would you agree that it was harder back then to score tons than it is now ?
 
Why is Kohli the gold standard for judging batsmen in Test cricket? Think we need to aim better.

Question really is whether the 2 are any closer to Joe Root in caliber?

I think Kane Williamson should be benchmark for every batsman. They guy literally scores anywhere. Root is a bit of home bully.

Smith is the best in Tests and he has been the best since 2015 Ashes IMO.
 
Lmao

Let's see how Azhar/Shafiq do outside Asia.

Australia/NZ/SA

you can make this thread again and then compare at least after the NZ tour.
 
Well, both Shafiq and Azhar have played better in England. Kohli was pathetic in England, batted like a tailender.

But yea, let's wait until they finish Australian tour.
 
Definitely harder back then to score tons in Australia, SA and England.

But in India, it is much harder now.

SA, I think it depends series by series - sometimes the pitches are extremely seamer friendly and sometimes they are almost flat.
 
No.


Zabardasti ki thread.

[MENTION=139108]Sachin136[/MENTION] has done good PostMartum of the thread in Post No.7


But denial mode will continue.
 
Lol what a poor thread. Kohli is at a different level. Check his stats away from home. He has failed in eng only but has done excellently everywhere else. Scoring in india these days is very difficult. I am sure kohli will pile up the runs if he plays in uae. I love azhar and shafiq but there is no point in being so ultra biased.
 
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Quoting an earlier post:

Against non-minnows away from home (excluding Zimbabwe, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and West Indies)

Kohli averages 48.84 with 7 centuries over 17 matches http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...orderby=default;template=results;type=batting

Shafiq averages 36.25 with 2 centuries over 9 matches http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...orderby=default;template=results;type=batting

Azhar Ali averages 29.60 with 1 century over 13 matches http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...orderby=default;template=results;type=batting

If you include Sri Lanka, the difference is still very wide.

Someone mentioned that Kohli doesn't have that much impact in home matches. That is true but compare Indian pitches with UAE ones where Cook and Malik are scoring double hundreds.

Great post but why mention cook? he is a legendary test opener who has dominated india in India as well. He is miles better than kohli in test cricket.
 
Kohli is a league above them unfortunately

Disagree Kohli maybe leagues ahead as a ODI batsman but not when it comes To Tests.

He had a fantastic series away in Australia but overall he's been very inconsistent as a Test batsman.

I think Azhar and Asad are at least level with him in this format.
 
I think Kane Williamson should be benchmark for every batsman. They guy literally scores anywhere. Root is a bit of home bully.

Baffles me how someone who averages nearly 50 away from home can be deemed a home track bully.
 
lol Kohli vs Azhar and Asad.

He has only failed in Eng. His performances in SA (Most difficult for sub-continent players), NZ, AUS can never be matched by our one performance per series wonders. UAE has the most easiest batting conditions for sub-continent batsmen and these guys can't even bully the opposition here. Kohli being called a home bully is a laughable comment.
 
Disagree Kohli maybe leagues ahead as a ODI batsman but not when it comes To Tests.

He had a fantastic series away in Australia but overall he's been very inconsistent as a Test batsman.

I think Azhar and Asad are at least level with him in this format.

He has done well in south africa and new zeeland as well. I think once he improves in the subcontinent he will be well clear of them.
 
Even though I believe Kohli is one tier higher than Azhar/Shafiq, but you cant just say that Shafiq and Azhar wont play as well as Kohli in Aus, so they cant be considered as good. The future has not happened, so we cant speculate on what might and might not happen? We can only look at the past and decide whether a batsman has been better or not.

azhar and shafiq have rarely (if ever) dominated a series. they do well in one or two innings but then go missing otherwise. they cannot replicate what kohli did in aus. both will get a hundred each but that is it.
 
Disagree Kohli maybe leagues ahead as a ODI batsman but not when it comes To Tests.

He had a fantastic series away in Australia but overall he's been very inconsistent as a Test batsman.

I think Azhar and Asad are at least level with him in this format.

fair points but you have to look at the highs as well. kohli scored 600 runs in aus in one series with 4 hundreds. shafiq and azhar haven't close to such dominance even against a weak team at home. if kohli is inconsistent they are inconsistent too but without kohli's highs.

kohli had lows in england but then shafiq failed equally badly in zimbabwe. kohli has much more potential and higher ceiling as a test batsman and this is a poor comparison imo.
 
LOL.After the post Sachin 136.People also need to loook at the pitches in India in last 2-3 years batting on them is difficult.UAE pitches dont even compare.
 
LOL.After the post Sachin 136.People also need to loook at the pitches in India in last 2-3 years batting on them is difficult.UAE pitches dont even compare.

Wierd.

Success of Yasir and Pakistan in Asia was due to raging turners

But when Pakistan bat they are flat pancakes?
 
Don't think anyone says UAE wickets are "raging turners".

Ofcourse it's hyperbole by me but the point remains

Also how some Indians say that the pitches in india aren't big turners and the opposition and Pp posters are crying.
 
Wierd.

Success of Yasir and Pakistan in Asia was due to raging turners

But when Pakistan bat they are flat pancakes?

Compare it to pitches in India in last two seasons.We all saw what happened to SA and now NZ is having same issues.
 
uae pitches are not raging turners but it offers enough assistance for a quality spinner to be lethal. ashwin will destroy teams in the uae but i am not sure about jadeja. similary babar for us struggles in the uae.
 
Ofcourse it's hyperbole by me but the point remains

Also how some Indians say that the pitches in india aren't big turners and the opposition and Pp posters are crying.

UAE wickets can be at best described as slow turners and at worst, they are phattas.

Indian wickets have been slow turners at best (this match is an exception) and Nagpur (under prepared rank turners) at worst off late.
 
fair points but you have to look at the highs as well. kohli scored 600 runs in aus in one series with 4 hundreds. shafiq and azhar haven't close to such dominance even against a weak team at home. if kohli is inconsistent they are inconsistent too but without kohli's highs.

kohli had lows in england but then shafiq failed equally badly in zimbabwe. kohli has much more potential and higher ceiling as a test batsman and this is a poor comparison imo.

That's why I said they are all about same.

Let's not bring potential in the debate because I too used to fall for potential in players but I changed my mind once I saw Umar Akmal despite having the potential he didn't use his brain or work ethic to go to the next level.

Kohli may well go past them in a few years time but not right now he isn't.
 
That's why I said they are all about same.

Let's not bring potential in the debate because I too used to fall for potential in players but I changed my mind once I saw Umar Akmal despite having the potential he didn't use his brain or work ethic to go to the next level.

Kohli may well go past them in a few years time but not right now he isn't.

kohli is a different example than umar because he has already fulfilled his potential in limited overs and he is one of the greats. in tests he isn't one of the greats yet but he is still a very good player and has a tremendous work ethic unlike umar who is flopping in all formats and has a lazy attitude.
 
Kohli is not even the best batsman in the Indian team.

Vijay and Rahane are better.
 
uae pitches are not raging turners but it offers enough assistance for a quality spinner to be lethal. ashwin will destroy teams in the uae but i am not sure about jadeja. similary babar for us struggles in the uae.

There is no evidence that Indian spinners will certainly be as successful in the UAE as Yasir because the pitches they play on are far more conducive to spin than UAE pitches.
 
There is no evidence that Indian spinners will certainly be as successful in the UAE as Yasir because the pitches they play on are far more conducive to spin than UAE pitches.

The evidence for me is that ashwin is a world class spinner like yasir. his performance in sri lanka where he did better than yasir on exact same pitches is proof of that. yes yasir has done better in england but ashwin is a much improved bowler now. yasir did struggle badly at old trafford and edgbaston which were not spin friendly and ashwin of today would do well on lords and oval type pitches.

For me yasir and ashwin are equally good as spinners.
 
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What Pakistani batsman could ever dream of four centuries on the trot in Australia?

They may not score 4 centuries on the trot but they will do just fine. But we know for sure that neither Azhar or Asad average 13 in England unlike kohli.
 
Selective stats. Both PAK bats didn't really have a great start, and includes the poor SA tour too.

We've come a looong way since then. Plus, Pak didn't have the privilege of playing so many away tours, while India did have it. More chances of acclimatization to conditions.

It is just their records away from home. There is nothing selective about it.

Kohli went on 2 tours to Australia, and 1 to SA/NZ/ENG. I don't see where he got a lot of chances to acclimatize to the conditions. And why doesn't this line of thinking apply to Kohli's England tour?
 
There is no evidence that Indian spinners will certainly be as successful in the UAE as Yasir because the pitches they play on are far more conducive to spin than UAE pitches.

Where Yasir and Ashwin both have toured:

Yasir got 10 wickets at 34.00 in Bangladesh and Ashwin got 5 wickets at 19.00.

Yasir got 24 wickets at 19.33 in Sri Lanka and Ashwin got 21 wickets at 18.10.

This is despite Ashwin having to share his wickets with Mishra.
 
Where Yasir and Ashwin both have toured:

Yasir got 10 wickets at 34.00 in Bangladesh and Ashwin got 5 wickets at 19.00.

Yasir got 24 wickets at 19.33 in Sri Lanka and Ashwin got 21 wickets at 18.10.

This is despite Ashwin having to share his wickets with Mishra.

That line of thinking is incorrect. But yes, they have been equally good when they have toured close to each other. But Yasir has been good in Eng, and we cant ignore that
 
They may not score 4 centuries on the trot but they will do just fine. But we know for sure that neither Azhar or Asad average 13 in England unlike kohli.

I'll agree that they will do just fine after they have played there. Ill bet very heavily on the already ATG ODI
and T20 player to end up with a far more memorable Test record than Asad and certainly Azhar. The question
for me is why is Kohli not being compared to Younis?
 
That line of thinking is incorrect. But yes, they have been equally good when they have toured close to each other. But Yasir has been good in Eng, and we cant ignore that

I guess not having good bowlers to support you (in Yasir's case) probably evens it out.

I was just responding to the "pitches they play on are far more conducive to spin than UAE pitches" part.
 
Kohli is certainly better than Azhar and Asad in tests.

He has played equally distributed amount of games in every part of the world and has been doing well.

Yes, he hasn't been their best batsmen everywhere but he certainly makes an equally worthy case as Rahane, Pujara and Vijay to be impactful in the longer format.
 
It might be possible that when Kohli, Rahane, Rahul will be at 50 tests + old, then they may have better away avg than home just like South African and English players.
 
This was the exact thread that Kohli needed to revive his fortunes. Like the Akmal comparisons.

Played a brisk and good knock today. All thanks to [MENTION=134608]Hawkeye[/MENTION]:yk
 
This was the exact thread that Kohli needed to revive his fortunes. Like the Akmal comparisons.

Played a brisk and good knock today. All thanks to [MENTION=134608]Hawkeye[/MENTION]:yk

That was the plan all along. :baelish
 
I'd say they are all in the same tier at the moment. Kohli is not in the top A+ tier of Williamson, Smith, Warner, Cook and Root. This is how I rate the current Test batsmen. Bear in mind that this is TESTS ONLY:

A+: Steve Smith, David Warner, Alastair Cook, Joe Root, Kane Williamson

A: Johnny Bairstow, Younis Khan

A-: Usman Khawaja, Cheteshwar Pujara

B+: Azhar Ali, Misbah-ul-Haq, Asad Shafiq, Virat Kohli, Ajinkya Rahane, Hashim Amla, AB de Villiers, Dinesh Chandimal

B: Tamim Iqbal, Imrul Kayes, Temba Bavuma, Angelo Mathews
 
Kohli has had good tours of SA & NZ as well.

Azhar had a forgettable tour of SA in 2013 whereas kohli was awesome in 2013.

Will get to know better when these guys get runs in SA & AUS.
 
Sad state of affairs when a measly 45 is being hailed as a great innings.

He should be scoring big hundreds in this series but he's failed disappointingly.
 
Kohli has had good tours of SA & NZ as well.

Azhar had a forgettable tour of SA in 2013 whereas kohli was awesome in 2013.

Will get to know better when these guys get runs in SA & AUS.

The pitches that both of them played on were vastly different.
 
The evidence for me is that ashwin is a world class spinner like yasir. his performance in sri lanka where he did better than yasir on exact same pitches is proof of that. yes yasir has done better in england but ashwin is a much improved bowler now. yasir did struggle badly at old trafford and edgbaston which were not spin friendly and ashwin of today would do well on lords and oval type pitches.

For me yasir and ashwin are equally good as spinners.

It's widely recognized that UAE pitches are the flattest in Asia, so in no way are they comparable to Sri Lanka and India where it's difficult to bat.

Yasir is ahead IMO because Yasir won Pakistan Tests in England too.
 
Where Yasir and Ashwin both have toured:

Yasir got 10 wickets at 34.00 in Bangladesh and Ashwin got 5 wickets at 19.00.

Yasir got 24 wickets at 19.33 in Sri Lanka and Ashwin got 21 wickets at 18.10.

This is despite Ashwin having to share his wickets with Mishra.

UAE pitches in recent years have been almost feather beds. Wouldn't expect Yasir to be taking wickets at such a rate there that he has.
 
Any reasoning for that?


He's a technician, mentally and physically. Over 5 days, his mental edge and cricketing acumen gives him the advantage over most opposition. If he's worked over in the first, you better believe he will be doing everything in his power to regain that edge.

We know Virat is very calculated in his approach. In the shorter formats, the limited overs and scoreboard pressure can often force him in a position where certain requirements are to be met during different stages of the game. Therefore, even if he knows, changing gears or playing certain shots to meet those demands could result in gifting his wicket away. This, he doesn't have to worry about in test cricket.

Test cricket has its own challenges. But what Virat doesn't have to worry about here is time. With increased overs, Virat can execute his plans with thorough precision, particularly in the 2nd innings setting a target or chasing one.

Coming to the critique over his technical deficiencies. Yes, he was susceptible a year or two ago. Instead of going down the pitch his front foot was going across, resulting in misjudgement of his offstump. At other times, his head would lead but the legs wouldn't follow or they would move too late. He's corrected that. His movements are more synchronized, the head and legs moving simultaneously leading to better alignment of head and foot. He doesn't quite have the muscle memory yet to apply himself instinctively. Therefore he's at his best technically when he's met by a challenge. This gets his brain working and Virat gets fully side-on and all those hours of practice come into play.

Another one of his problems is discipline. He's a busy player, so naturally at the start of an innings, he wants to feel bat on ball. But batting in the top 4, you won't always be able to do that due to lateral movement. Finding the balance between attack and defence is a minor mental issue. I expect a mental genius to find the solution sooner than later.
 
It's widely recognized that UAE pitches are the flattest in Asia, so in no way are they comparable to Sri Lanka and India where it's difficult to bat.

Yasir is ahead IMO because Yasir won Pakistan Tests in England too.
He bowled wellwhen England prepared pitches that suited Yasir. But when typical English pitches were prepared, English players made Yasir look like club cricketers.
 
He bowled wellwhen England prepared pitches that suited Yasir. But when typical English pitches were prepared, English players made Yasir look like club cricketers.

Moeen Ali outbowled your ashwin and jadeja. At least Yasir can take wickets overseas whereas your shoooopershitar averages 100.
 
Moeen Ali outbowled your ashwin and jadeja. At least Yasir can take wickets overseas whereas your shoooopershitar averages 100.

Ashwin averages 33.67 over 2 innings in England. Yasir averages 40.74 over 4 matches. Undoubtedly Yasir's performance was much better than Ashwin's though, but Ashwin hardly got to bowl.
 
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Azhar Ali vs Virat Kohli (test matches)

there is no doubt in my mind that virat is not only better then azhar but is at least 10 times better batsman then azhar but still most of there stats are same
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so my question is what azhar needs to do so he can be counted as one of the best test batsman of the world or in same bracket as kohli
 
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