Asad Shafiq/Azhar Ali - Better Test batsmen than Virat Kohli?

[Al-Pacino]

Azhar needs to score more runs outside asia.

well he got more runs under his belt as compared to kohli in england

 

[street cricketer]

well he got more runs under his belt as compared to kohli in england

Yes but Kohli has got more runs elsewhere, averages 46 outside Asia despite his horrible record in England as opposed to Azhar averaging 31.

 

[msb314]

Why is Kohli the gold standard for judging batsmen in Test cricket? Think we need to aim better.

Question really is whether the 2 are any closer to Joe Root in caliber?

Joe Root is great in England but unproven abroad.

 

[Napa]

there is no doubt in my mind that virat is not only better then azhar but is at least 10 times better batsman then azhar but still most of there stats are same
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so my question is what azhar needs to do so he can be counted as one of the best test batsman of the world or in same bracket as kohli

The answer to your question is really simple, Azhar has to perform like Kohli in LOIs.

Kohli's reputation is not based on his performance in Tests, rather it is due to his LOIs' feats. His performance is Tests is not bad, and is getting better. If he applies himself, he will also be great in Tests.

 

[MenInG]

Joe Root is great in England but unproven abroad.

After his century now we can expect lot of Kohli comparisons

 

[Hawkeye]

Congrats Kohli.

On scoring first century in 3 years at home.

 

[Cricfan4eva]

The answer to your question is really simple, Azhar has to perform like Kohli in LOIs.

Kohli's reputation is not based on his performance in Tests, rather it is due to his LOIs' feats. His performance is Tests is not bad, and is getting better. If he applies himself, he will also be great in Tests.

Kohli's reputation in test is also because he's scored run everywhere India have toured except Eng.

What put him in the top tier is how he took on the MJ challenge. It's easy to write off his performances due to flat pitches but there was a lot going on then. India's skipper retired mid-way, he became captain just ahead of the tour. And he was coming off a poor England tour. There was just so much at stake for him and he showed his character in a make or break series for him literally.

That's why he's rated highly in tests as well. However he does have to up his consistency and score big 100s. His last 2 centuries have been over 200 and currently he's in his 190s. Looks like he's sorting out one of the issues, next up is consistency.

 

[Bilal7]

They're all on the same level, along with Vijay, Faf and Rahane. Below the likes of Cook, Root, Kane, AB and Smith, who in turn, are below Amla and Younis.

 

[Hasan123]

This is how I rank the current test batters.

Tier 1-Amla,Cook,Root,Younis,Williamson, Smith,Rahane,

Tier 2-Azhar,Asad,Misbah,Mathews,Ab,Warner,Virat,Vijay,Pujara.

May have forgot some but these are the ones I remember.

 

[Hawkeye]

They're all on the same level, along with Vijay, Faf and Rahane. Below the likes of Cook, Root, Kane, AB and Smith, who in turn, are below Amla and Younis.

Come on now, Bilal, let's not go overboard.

Amla >> Younis, but still below AB, Cook.

 

[Rayyman]

Come on now, Bilal, let's not go overboard.

Amla >> Younis, but still below AB, Cook.

Amla is better than AB in Tests.

 

[Abdullah719]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Test batting average in the last 2 years:<br>Azhar Ali 66.11<br>Joe Root 58.28<br>Virat Kohli 54.80<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Cricket?src=hash">#Cricket</a></p>— Saj Sadiq (@Saj_PakPassion) <a href="https://twitter.com/Saj_PakPassion/status/786979523644514304">October 14, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Mamoon]

Cook and Amla are at the same level, ahead of Younis who is ahead of de Villiers.

No point in grouping the 2010 era players like Kohli, Root, Williamson, Smith, Rahane, Azhar, Shafiq, Pujara etc. with the said players because there is a generation gap.

Tier 1:

Cook, Amla - two most accomplished Test batsman in the game today with a proven track-record everywhere both in terms of performance and sample size.

Tier 2:

Root, Smith, Williamson, Kohli, Rahane, Younis

Tier 3:

de Villiers, Misbah, Azhar, Shafiq, Mathews, du Plessis, Warner, Pujara, Vijay

Please note that these Tiers don't reflect current performance. Instead I'm taking into consideration their performance over a longer time period.

Otherwise if we consider current performance only, players like Root, Smith, Williamson and Rahane will be in Tier 1 while Younis, Cook, Amla and Pujara will be a tier lower.

Azhar is not a better Test batsman than Kohli and this triple-hundred doesn't change much. It is not a big criteria of evaluating Test batsmen.

 

[Bilal7]

Come on now, Bilal, let's not go overboard.

Amla >> Younis, but still below AB, Cook.

Amla and Younis below AB and Cook in tests? You must be kidding me. One of them does not have more than one or two great innings in the format while the other one can't play quality pace bowling.

 

[street cricketer]

Has strong performances at home but needs to perform more in unfavourable conditions to be rated in the tier 1 category.

A solid batsman though.

 

[Bilal7]

Has strong performances at home but needs to perform more in unfavourable conditions to be rated in the tier 1 category.

A solid batsman though.

Exactly my sentiments. I don't know if it was you or someone else who said something along these lines but Azhar is very similar to Pujara, just like Rahane is very similar to Shafiq.

 

[jusarrived]

Exactly my sentiments. I don't know if it was you or someone else who said something along these lines but Azhar is very similar to Pujara, just like Rahane is very similar to Shafiq.

Azhar is better than Pujara
Rahane is better than Shafiq

 

[Ab Fan]

Exactly my sentiments. I don't know if it was you or someone else who said something along these lines but Azhar is very similar to Pujara, just like Rahane is very similar to Shafiq.

Rahane is well ahead of each of them including Kohli.

The only test player having potential to be as good as Amla along with Root and Williamson.

 

[jusarrived]

Amla and Younis below AB and Cook in tests? You must be kidding me. One of them does not have more than one or two great innings in the format while the other one can't play quality pace bowling.

Only YK has some great innings to his credit , Cook has a couple and AB has one .

Which great innings has Amla played ?

 

[Hasan123]

Only YK has some great innings to his credit , Cook has a couple and AB has one .

Which great innings has Amla played ?

Amla has played some good innings bilal goes over the top with praising him but Amla has a triple century in England. You can question Amla in LO but in tests his record is high quality.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

Kohli is levels above these two snails. No comparison.

 

[jusarrived]

Amla has played some good innings bilal goes over the top with praising him but Amla has a triple century in England. You can question Amla in LO but in tests his record is high quality.

I have always said Amla is a quality Test player .
He seems to be putting down other players based on some extremely high standards he sets for these guys . My question is , by those high standards has Amla played any great innings ? I know he has played a lot of good ones , but anything at par with some of YK's match saving innings ?

 

[Hasan123]

I have always said Amla is a quality Test player .
He seems to be putting down other players based on some extremely high standards he sets for these guys . My question is , by those high standards has Amla played any great innings ? I know he has played a lot of good ones , but anything at par with some of YK's match saving innings ?

Amla has played some good innings I just can't remember them. Bilal probably does.

Btw YK is a superior player to Amla imo.

 

[Bilal7]

Only YK has some great innings to his credit , Cook has a couple and AB has one .

Which great innings has Amla played ?

Laughable post. Amla has a triple in England, against their best bowling attack in decades, a 253* in India and a 196 at a SR of nearly 100 in Australia. All three of these were match-winning and even series-winning innings.

These are the most famous ones that he's played. Below them are his several centuries where he was the only batsman scoring any runs for his team such as his century against Ajmal and co in the UAE or his twin centuries against India, where he almost single-handedly led his team to a series win. There is also his century at a SR of 80 in the 45 all-out, 99 all-out game.

Rahane is well ahead of each of them including Kohli.

The only test player having potential to be as good as Amla along with Root and Williamson.

Rahane is a quality batsman with great potential, however he needs a breakthrough series to launch himself ahead of the pack. He can definitely turn out to be the best of the lot though.

Azhar is better than Pujara
Rahane is better than Shafiq

No, if anything Azhar is better than Pujara. I was being fair by grouping them all together.

 

[Ab Fan]

^ Rahane bats down the order at 5. He can't have series- defining breakthrough performance of a series where he scored most runs.

Only the top three or four gets more chance to be leading run scorer rather than a five or six .

 

[Bilal7]

^ Rahane bats down the order at 5. He can't have series- defining breakthrough performance of a series where he scored most runs.

Only the top three or four gets more chance to be leading run scorer rather than a five or six .

Shafiq had the same problem but he earned a promotion through his consistency. Rahane will earn the same opportunity in the near future and he needs to cash in on it.

 

[Ab Fan]

Shafiq had the same problem but he earned a promotion through his consistency. Rahane will earn the same opportunity in the near future and he needs to cash in on it.

Pujara at 3 and Kohli at 4.. Rahane will stay at 5 for a long time. That is like a fixed position for him.

Shafiq was promoted for pretty obvious reasons.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Azhar Ali avgs 30.8 outside Asia including ZIM,with one century.Age almost 32.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...rderby=default;template=results;type=allround

Asad Shafiq avgs 27.9 outside Asia including ZIM with 2 centuries.Age Almost 31

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...rderby=default;template=results;type=allround

Virat Kohli avgs 46.16 outside Asia,hasnt played vs ZIM. With 8 centuries. Age Almost 28.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...rderby=default;template=results;type=allround

So dont think there is any comparision with Kohli here.

 

[Chrish]

In no galaxy, Amla and Yunis are above Smith and Root..

Fanboism without common sense = epic stupidity

 

[Hawkeye]

Amla and Younis below AB and Cook in tests? You must be kidding me. One of them does not have more than one or two great innings in the format while the other one can't play quality pace bowling.

You're right, Amla isn't below AB or Cook. Wrong on my part .

But YK isn't up there. He's just a bit below. We know how vulnerable he is against pace. I know he scored a double, but we can't forget the past record or the previous matches.

Not done much overseas too but hasn't played much abroad.

 

[Bilal7]

Pujara at 3 and Kohli at 4.. Rahane will stay at 5 for a long time. That is like a fixed position for him.

Shafiq was promoted for pretty obvious reasons.

You might be right since India's openers are pretty permanent too. Would be a good decision to switch Kohli and Rahane in the batting-order. Kohli gets extra cover against swing and seam while Rahane gets more opportunities to show his class.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Cook and Amla are at the same level, ahead of Younis who is ahead of de Villiers.

No point in grouping the 2010 era players like Kohli, Root, Williamson, Smith, Rahane, Azhar, Shafiq, Pujara etc. with the said players because there is a generation gap.

Tier 1:

Cook, Amla - two most accomplished Test batsman in the game today with a proven track-record everywhere both in terms of performance and sample size.

Tier 2:

Root, Smith, Williamson, Kohli, Rahane, Younis

Tier 3:

de Villiers, Misbah, Azhar, Shafiq, Mathews, du Plessis, Warner, Pujara, Vijay

Please note that these Tiers don't reflect current performance. Instead I'm taking into consideration their performance over a longer time period.

Otherwise if we consider current performance only, players like Root, Smith, Williamson and Rahane will be in Tier 1 while Younis, Cook, Amla and Pujara will be a tier lower.

Azhar is not a better Test batsman than Kohli and this triple-hundred doesn't change much. It is not a big criteria of evaluating Test batsmen.

De Villiers below YK.Wow.I guess you need to check AB's test record.

 

[Bilal7]

You're right, Amla isn't below AB or Cook. Wrong on my part .

But YK isn't up there. He's just a bit below. We know how vulnerable he is against pace. I know he scored a double, but we can't forget the past record or the previous matches.

Not done much overseas too but hasn't played much abroad.

You're probably the first person I've seen admitting that you made a mistake, myself included, so good job. Would be nice if people would stop being so hell-bent on proving themselves right, even when everyone knows they aren't.

Younis averages 50+ in both England and New Zealand and this is over a long period of time so one can't just say that he was lucky to get that average. So which past records are you speaking of?

He failed in South Africa and it is likely that he won't get a chance to rectify that in the future, but one failure is tolerated in every player's record. Dravid failed there too.

As for Australia, he hasn't played enough to make a judgement either way and the upcoming series should be a good test. If he does well, he will go down as an ATG in my opinion, if he fails, he won't. However, Cook and de Villiers are not ATGs either so Younis will come out higher either way.

Younis is a monster in Asia and his overseas record is good, if not great.

 

[Mamoon]

De Villiers below YK.Wow.I guess you need to check AB's test record.

Averages alone don't say much, and should you know that I don't consider Younis an ATG Test batsman or even an elite player.

de Villiers isn't even in the top 3 SA Test batsmen of his generation (Kallis, Smith and Amla are/were better) and if we consider the batsmen who have made their debuts in the last 15 years, he is behind Sangakkara, Younis, Clarke, Pietersen, Cook and newer generation of batsmen like Root, Kohli, Smith, Williamson and Rahane will overtake him in Tests as well.

He is a overhyped in Test cricket. Doesn't have the consistent big scores (check his centuries to matches ratio) and appetite for big runs which are hallmarks of a great Test batsman.

 

[Mamoon]

Azhar is better than Pujara
Rahane is better than Shafiq

Pujara and Azhar are equal. The former has been in a rough patch for 2 years but he's a brilliant Test player. He will get back to his pre-2014 form should his fitness (knees) hold up.

Rahane is much better than Shafiq.

 

[Mamoon]

Rahane already has had a breakthrough series to an extent, i.e. the SA one. It was terrible for batting and no other batsmen managed to score a hundred while Rahane did it twice.

 

[Bilal7]

Never understood the hype behind Cook. Yes, he is a very solid opener and probably has decent averages everywhere but he's been found out by good bowlers time and time again. Whether that be Asif's Pakistani, Steyn's South African, Ajmal's Pakistan or MJ's Australian attacks, the Cookie has always crumbled.

 

[Mamoon]

Amla has played some good innings I just can't remember them. Bilal probably does.

Btw YK is a superior player to Amla imo.

Amla is in a different league to Younis overall. He is massively overrated in ODIs but still in a different galaxy to Younis, while in general he is a much better player of pace bowling and pretty much on par with Younis when it comes to playing spin.

I am no Amla fan but he's a dream Test batsman.

 

[Bilal7]

Rahane already has had a breakthrough series to an extent, i.e. the SA one. It was terrible for batting and no other batsmen managed to score a hundred while Rahane did it twice.

That was only after the series was dead and buried and I don't mean to offend anybody, but that pitch was the flattest in the series.

How can it be a breakthrough series when his best performance came in the dead rubber? Vijay was the best Indian batsman before that and de Villiers was the best South African.

 

[Mamoon]

Never understood the hype behind Cook. Yes, he is a very solid opener and probably has decent averages everywhere but he's been found out by good bowlers time and time again. Whether that be Asif's Pakistani, Steyn's South African, Ajmal's Pakistan or MJ's Australian attacks, the Cookie has always crumbled.

A lot of things go in his favor. Firstly, opening in England in Tests is arguably the toughest job in the game, plus his consistency in run scoring is quite staggering. Not to mention he still has many years left in the tank and has played starring roles in Test series wins in Australia and India which is alone enough to make someone a legend.

Yes he does have a weakness against high quality pace bowling but no player is perfect. A lot was said about him crumbling against Amir this summer but he played pretty well and quite aggressively. A few drop catches yes but overall he came on top against our bowlers.

 

[Hasan123]

Amla is in a different league to Younis overall. He is massively overrated in ODIs but still in a different galaxy to Younis, while in general he is a much better player of pace bowling and pretty much on par with Younis when it comes to playing spin.

I am no Amla fan but he's a dream Test batsman.

Amla is a fine test player. I think Younis Khan is just better. He has good longevity and also played some good 4th innings.

Btw Kohli is ahead of Amla in LO? And will surpass him in tests. Im I correct or not?

 

[Mamoon]

That was only after the series was dead and buried and I don't mean to offend anybody, but that pitch was the flattest in the series.

How can it be a breakthrough series when his best performance came in the dead rubber? Vijay was the best Indian batsman before that and de Villiers was the best South African.

Yes but it's not as if the other Indian batsmen weren't trying because the series was one, and from SA's perspective no team wants to get blanked so there is still something to play for even if the series is over.

 

[Mamoon]

Amla is a fine test player. I think Younis Khan is just better. He has good longevity and also played some good 4th innings.

Btw Kohli is ahead of Amla in LO? And will surpass him in tests. Im I correct or not?

Kohli is in a different league to Amla in LOIs and pretty much every contemporary player. de Villiers is poor in T20Is and rest have good stats like Williamson and Smith but not very impactful.

Potentially, Root, de Kock and Buttler can challenge Kohli in LOIs but at the moment Kohli has a big lead over them because he has been a run scoring machine for years now and is already the best chaser ever.

 

[Bilal7]

A lot of things go in his favor. Firstly, opening in England in Tests is arguably the toughest job in the game, plus his consistency in run scoring is quite staggering. Not to mention he still has many years left in the tank and has played starring roles in Test series wins in Australia and India which is alone enough to make someone a legend.

Yes he does have a weakness against high quality pace bowling but no player is perfect. A lot was said about him crumbling against Amir this summer but he played pretty well and quite aggressively. A few drop catches yes but overall he came on top against our bowlers.

Good post. This is all true but not enough for me to rate him ahead of Amla and Younis. Better than de Villiers for sure though.

He does have a good six years ahead of him so there is ample time for one of us to be proved dead wrong.

Yes but it's not as if the other Indian batsmen weren't trying because the series was one, and from SA's perspective no team wants to get blanked so there is still something to play for even if the series is over.

It was a good performance but I was speaking of breakthrough series and that certainly wasn't Rahane's.

 

[Boi]

Kohli is a better all round batsmen than both and will end up with a better record. However, I think this move for Azhar to open the batting is a really crucial one not just for our side but himself. He's going to thrive there and has the chance to rival the likes of Cook, Vijay and Warner in terms of best opening bats going around. Really looking forward to see how he goes in NZ & Australia this winter, where, if he performs, he'll manage to really nail himself down as a world class batsmen and I'm confident he can do it.

 

[Hasan123]

Kohli is in a different league to Amla in LOIs and pretty much every contemporary player. de Villiers is poor in T20Is and rest have good stats like Williamson and Smith but not very impactful.

Potentially, Root, de Kock and Buttler can challenge Kohli in LOIs but at the moment Kohli has a big lead over them because he has been a run scoring machine for years now and is already the best chaser ever.

Yes I think de kock and Root will challenge Kohli very closely for best odi player of this generation. De kock needs to perform in icc tournaments. But no doubt the talent is there I am a big fan of quinton. Butler is in danger of going the ab way of giving his wicket away at crucial times.

 

[Mamoon]

Younis had a great chance to enter ATG category by having a dominant series in England, but he was Pakistan's worst batsman for 6 innings and showed the least amount of fight. He ended up playing the best individual innings for Pakistan in his 7th attempt but overall he had a forgettable series.

Pretty clear now that he is not ATG material, unless he dominates Australia in Australia which looks unlikely. Will probably have an inconsequential output again and have one big innings. That helps maintain his averages which look good statistically but doesn't do much about his influence and impact, as well as value to the team.

In Asia though he has been very consistent especially in the last 2-3 years.

 

[Mamoon]

Good post. This is all true but not enough for me to rate him ahead of Amla and Younis. Better than de Villiers for sure though.

He does have a good six years ahead of him so there is ample time for one of us to be proved dead wrong.



It was a good performance but I was speaking of breakthrough series and that certainly wasn't Rahane's.

For me he is on par with Amla but I would rate him ahead of Younis because he contributed heavily in two massive away series wins with the bat for his team which Younis hasn't managed.

He had a golden chance in England but he let it slip. Had he turned up in either Manchester or Edgbaston we could have saved those games and won the series, that would certainly have made him on par with Cook or even given him a lead over him.

Has another chance in Australia though, but he needs to show more than once per series that too right at the end.

He failed to do it in SA and England because he only turned for one innings and failed in the rest. Cook was consistently great in Australia and India, in the series England won.

 

[Bilal7]

Younis had a great chance to enter ATG category by having a dominant series in England, but he was Pakistan's worst batsman for 6 innings and showed the least amount of fight. He ended up playing the best individual innings for Pakistan in his 7th attempt but overall he had a forgettable series.

Pretty clear now that he is not ATG material, unless he dominates Australia in Australia which looks unlikely. Will probably have an inconsequential output again and have one big innings. That helps maintain his averages which look good statistically but doesn't do much about his influence and impact, as well as value to the team.

In Asia though he has been very consistent especially in the last 2-3 years.

He's not in his prime now so it is unfair to expect him to be consistent. He's 40 years old and if he's still pulling off great innings like that 200, he's a champion batsman and can definitely end up as an ATG if he does well in Australia.

To each his own though, you have your own criteria for rating great players and I have mine.

 

[Mamoon]

Yes I think de kock and Root will challenge Kohli very closely for best odi player of this generation. De kock needs to perform in icc tournaments. But no doubt the talent is there I am a big fan of quinton. Butler is in danger of going the ab way of giving his wicket away at crucial times.

Root and Buttler have great opportunity to become ODI greats. England are hosting the next two ICC tournaments and their ODI team is shaping up to be top class. Both will be in the prime of their careers in 2017 and 2019 so they can become legends if they help England win the World Cup or/and the Champions Trophy, since England have never won any ODI tournament.

 

[Bilal7]

For me he is on par with Amla but I would rate him ahead of Younis because he contributed heavily in two massive away series wins with the bat for his team which Younis hasn't managed.

He had a golden chance in England but he let it slip. Had he turned up in either Manchester or Edgbaston we could have saved those games and won the series, that would certainly have made him on par with Cook or even given him a lead over him.

Has another chance in Australia though, but he needs to show more than once per series that too right at the end.

He failed to do it in SA and England because he only turned for one innings and failed in the rest. Cook was consistently great in Australia and India, in the series England won.

Let's hope he has that sort of series in Australia. Do you think he's capable of scoring two big centuries in three games?

 

[zn426]

It is just their records away from home. There is nothing selective about it.

Kohli went on 2 tours to Australia, and 1 to SA/NZ/ENG. I don't see where he got a lot of chances to acclimatize to the conditions. And why doesn't this line of thinking apply to Kohli's England tour?

Because Pakistan's last tour to England prior to this year was in 2010, and Azhar and Asad weren't even close to being fixtures in the side back then. Where was their time to acclimatize?

 

[Hasan123]

Root and Buttler have great opportunity to become ODI greats. England are hosting the next two ICC tournaments and their ODI team is shaping up to be top class. Both will be in the prime of their careers in 2017 and 2019 so they can become legends if they help England win the World Cup or/and the Champions Trophy, since England have never won any ODI tournament.

Agreed. Also it will elated Morgan if he captains England to a icc tournament victory in a 50 over competition

 

[Bilal7]

Yes but Kohli has got more runs elsewhere, averages 46 outside Asia despite his horrible record in England as opposed to Azhar averaging 31.

Azhar and Shafiq haven't played in New Zealand in over six years and they haven't played on the current highways that the Ausssies dish out. So how can you compare the three in these countries?

All three of them played in England very recently, on very similar pitches, and the result was there for all to see.

You can point to their record in South Africa and I can respond by reminding you that Kohli's great performance came in a match where the Saffers almost chased down 400+ in the fourth innings of an eventual draw but that would just upset some of you.

So as of now, they are all on the same level, along with Rahane and Vijay.

 

[Mamoon]

Flat pitches or whatever, but Kohli said the bar way too high for any touring batsman in Australia.

4 hundreds in 4 Tests is freakish and every player past/present will struggle to match that. Not to mention, the hundred in the second innings of the first Test was on a pitch that was really gripping and turning, with Lyon taking 7 wickets and all Indian batsmen except Kohli and Vijay struggling to put bat on ball.

I don't see any touring batsmen matching Kohli in Australia regardless of the pitches.

 

[Bilal7]

The bar isn't too high. If Azhar, Shafiq, Younis score a match-winning 200 in one of the games, on a pitch more supportive to bowlers, that will be better than if they padded their stats by scoring several baby hundreds and were still outbatted by an opposing batsman.

 

[Sachin136]

Because Pakistan's last tour to England prior to this year was in 2010, and Azhar and Asad weren't even close to being fixtures in the side back then. Where was their time to acclimatize?

Kohli didn't even tour England before that 2014 series.

 

[ahmedwaqas92]

Flat pitches or whatever, but Kohli said the bar way too high for any touring batsman in Australia.

4 hundreds in 4 Tests is freakish and every player past/present will struggle to match that. Not to mention, the hundred in the second innings of the first Test was on a pitch that was really gripping and turning, with Lyon taking 7 wickets and all Indian batsmen except Kohli and Vijay struggling to put bat on ball.

I don't see any touring batsmen matching Kohli in Australia regardless of the pitches.

Let's wait for the Australian Tour shall we. A lot of things were similarly said before the English tour and once we came out of it with decent performance (Mind you that was the second best performance in over 8 years by any visiting team playing 4 matches or more), these same keyboard warriors were ducking for cover with embarrassment.

I've following test cricket for more than 15+ years mate and trust me this game has a funny way of biting people in the ..............

Anyways as of right now Azhar and Asad are both superior TEST bats to kohli and this is based on seeing all three of them play cricket against a good number of oppositions. Nothing to do with stats as some people don't really rate YK even though he has better stats than most of his competitors over the years.

 

[AlizeeFan]

So as of now, they are all on the same level, along with Rahane and Vijay.

No, in this Indian team they are comparable to Ashwin atm.

 

[AlizeeFan]

Azhar Ali avgs 30.8 outside Asia including ZIM,with one century.Age almost 32.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...rderby=default;template=results;type=allround

Asad Shafiq avgs 27.9 outside Asia including ZIM with 2 centuries.Age Almost 31

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...rderby=default;template=results;type=allround

Virat Kohli avgs 46.16 outside Asia,hasnt played vs ZIM. With 8 centuries. Age Almost 28.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...rderby=default;template=results;type=allround

So dont think there is any comparision with Kohli here.

Ashwin averages 35.2 outside Asia with 2 centuries. Better than both these batsman.

Technique and capability wise he is at par with both these batsman.

 

[street cricketer]

Azhar and Shafiq haven't played in New Zealand in over six years and they haven't played on the current highways that the Ausssies dish out. So how can you compare the three in these countries?

Kohli isn't the same as he was in England 2 years ago as well. Doesn't erase his records just because he has made slight changes to his technique. Doesn't matter whether you played six or ten years ago, it will stay in your record book. Same for bowlers like Ashwin as well.

All three of them played in England very recently, on very similar pitches, and the result was there for all to see.

They weren't similar pitches. In the India England series, Anderson was swinging it miles but hardly ever moved the ball in the Pakistan series as did Amir, both of whom coincidentally happen to be the best proponents of swing bowling in the world. Not making an excuse for Kohli, he was definitely found out against lateral movement by Anderson with some high quality swing bowling, but I'm sorry, the conditions in the India and the Pakistan series weren't the same. Otherwise Amir would've picked much more wickets than Bhuvneshwar did and troubled the batsmen a lot more than he did in the series.

You can point to their record in South Africa and I can respond by reminding you that Kohli's great performance came in a match where the Saffers almost chased down 400+ in the fourth innings of an eventual draw but that would just upset some of you.

That is a terrible reading of the game when you guage matches from final scores in the cricinfo scorecards. The Johannesburg pitch had good grass cover which dried out in the last 3 days, but had juice in it for the first 2 days nonetheless and Kohli batted on the very first day. Test matches are not like T20s which stay the same for the entire duration of the match. That South African team had Smith, Amla, Kallis and AB (along with Peterson and Duminy). Do you genuinely believe that the Indian bowlers skittled out South Africa under 250 on a "flat track". Good for you if you believe so. See cricinfo scorecards don't tell you these things. Kohli made first use of the pitch when the pitch was doing things, which is why I rate that knock against Steyn, Philander and Morker as one of his better knocks, much better than whatever he scored in Australia barring Adelaide at 2nd dig.

So as of now, they are all on the same level, along with Rahane and Vijay.

Obviously I can't change your opinion and you are free to believe so. But both Azhar and Asad have poor averages outside of Asia (29 and 27) whereas Kohli and Rahane average around 45+. Just like Ashwin needs to perform outside Asia to prove his mettle (which I think is a very fair demand), both players need to score more runs in unfavourable conditions to be regarded in the same class as Kohli and Rahane. They are definitely strong at home and this 300 didn't tell me that, I knew that long before. But they need to stamp their greatness outside Asia to be regarded with Kohli and Rahane. I've nothing against both players btw, both are very humble and hard working and Asad is one of my favourites. But they are a league below both Kohli and Rahane atm.

 

[JaDed]

Apparently the pitches for India tour of England and Pak tour of England were same,I'm sure somehow pitches won't be flat anymore when Pakistan tour Australia.

 

[Haroon786]

Only YK has some great innings to his credit , Cook has a couple and AB has one .

Which great innings has Amla played ?

Triple at the Oval, a fast ton vs Australia in Australia, mastering India in 2008 and 2010 IIRC and almost singlehandedly winning a series in SL with his batting in 2014.

 

[Hawkeye]

On potential, ceiling and range of shots, Kohli is way ahead, folks.

Azhar's been doing decent on some helpful tracks, but even there his knocks don't feel as assured and ruthless as Kohli's.

It's obviously because of lack of shots, a bit unorthodox technique, limited play. But he got a good defense.

Kohli is superior than both.

 

[Cricfan4eva]

Apparently the pitches for India tour of England and Pak tour of England were same,I'm sure somehow pitches won't be flat anymore when Pakistan tour Australia.

Yes 8 out of 13 centuries of Kohli that have come outside Asia have all been due to flat pitches. And the 5 that he has in Asia have come in pitches that are flat but on those 5 pitches where Ashwin has done exceedingly well, they become raging turners because well Ashwin is ordinary.

Kohli-Ashwin combo is pushing the biased fans into a corner, they are soon running out of their arguments to downplay their performances.

 

[ahmedwaqas92]

Kohli isn't the same as he was in England 2 years ago as well. Doesn't erase his records just because he has made slight changes to his technique. Doesn't matter whether you played six or ten years ago, it will stay in your record book. Same for bowlers like Ashwin as well.



They weren't similar pitches. In the India England series, Anderson was swinging it miles but hardly ever moved the ball in the Pakistan series as did Amir, both of whom coincidentally happen to be the best proponents of swing bowling in the world. Not making an excuse for Kohli, he was definitely found out against lateral movement by Anderson with some high quality swing bowling, but I'm sorry, the conditions in the India and the Pakistan series weren't the same. Otherwise Amir would've picked much more wickets than Bhuvneshwar did and troubled the batsmen a lot more than he did in the series.



That is a terrible reading of the game when you guage matches from final scores in the cricinfo scorecards. The Johannesburg pitch had good grass cover which dried out in the last 3 days, but had juice in it for the first 2 days nonetheless and Kohli batted on the very first day. Test matches are not like T20s which stay the same for the entire duration of the match. That South African team had Smith, Amla, Kallis and AB (along with Peterson and Duminy). Do you genuinely believe that the Indian bowlers skittled out South Africa under 250 on a "flat track". Good for you if you believe so. See cricinfo scorecards don't tell you these things. Kohli made first use of the pitch when the pitch was doing things, which is why I rate that knock against Steyn, Philander and Morker as one of his better knocks, much better than whatever he scored in Australia barring Adelaide at 2nd dig.



Obviously I can't change your opinion and you are free to believe so. But both Azhar and Asad have poor averages outside of Asia (29 and 27) whereas Kohli and Rahane average around 45+. Just like Ashwin needs to perform outside Asia to prove his mettle (which I think is a very fair demand), both players need to score more runs in unfavourable conditions to be regarded in the same class as Kohli and Rahane. They are definitely strong at home and this 300 didn't tell me that, I knew that long before. But they need to stamp their greatness outside Asia to be regarded with Kohli and Rahane. I've nothing against both players btw, both are very humble and hard working and Asad is one of my favourites. But they are a league below both Kohli and Rahane atm.

I am not trying to be nit picky here but your first para and third one slightly contradicts each other. I am not too sure if you're trolling or not but clearly your train of thought is extremely interesting.

You told Bilal that the records will stay in the books no matter what and then later in the same post you say you can't judge a performance base on scorecards ?? Which is it man ?!

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Ashwin averages 35.2 outside Asia with 2 centuries. Better than both these batsman.

Technique and capability wise he is at par with both these batsman.

Its ok bhai.

Just cos others troll, we don't have to troll.

Kohli does have higher ceiling. If only he gets better in Asia....

 

[Cricfan4eva]

Its ok bhai.

Just cos others troll, we don't have to troll.

Kohli does have higher ceiling. If only he gets better in Asia....

He has a good chance to correct his home record if we continue to have pitches like we did during NZ series.

Determined player that he is, I'm sure he'll be looking to settle scores versus England when they come.

 

[street cricketer]

I am not trying to be nit picky here but your first para and third one slightly contradicts each other. I am not too sure if you're trolling or not but clearly your train of thought is extremely interesting.

You told Bilal that the records will stay in the books no matter what and then later in the same post you say you can't judge a performance base on scorecards ?? Which is it man ?!

There is nothing conflicting about it mate. I said you can never judge the whole match by the final scorecard. What does this have to do with your records staying in the book? Ashwin had a disastrous debut at South Africa, that was 3 years ago and he has developed very much as a bowler since. But that doesn't erase his records, and he has to prove himself when he tours there next year.

 

[Mamoon]

A bump for all of those who said that this duo is better or at least on par with Kohli.
[MENTION=136079]ahmedwaqas92[/MENTION]

 

[Slog]

A bump for all of those who said that this duo is better or at least on par with Kohli.

[MENTION=136079]ahmedwaqas92[/MENTION]

Kohli failed too the only time he got such green tracks

#englandtour2014 #andersonbunny #gonefishing

 

[uberkoen]

A bump for all of those who said that this duo is better or at least on par with Kohli.

[MENTION=136079]ahmedwaqas92[/MENTION]

I find these comparison threads to be really stupid

I don't think the duo is better than Kohli. Kohli is on another level however, they're pretty decent and more often that not will perform well. They won't set the world alight but can help us win a lot of matches in favorable conditions.

 

[Mamoon]

Kohli failed too the only time he got such green tracks

#englandtour2014 #andersonbunny #gonefishing

True. Would have been fishing outside the off-stump like the ATG if he would have played in this series.

 

[Mamoon]

I find these comparison threads to be really stupid

I don't think the duo is better than Kohli. Kohli is on another level however, they're pretty decent and more often that not will perform well. They won't set the world alight but can help us win a lot of matches in favorable conditions.

Yes, they are good for our standards because we have a poor batting culture, but as I said in another thread, we simply cannot compare our batsmen to those of other teams. They are well ahead.

 

[uberkoen]

Yes, they are good for our standards because we have a poor batting culture, but as I said in another thread, we simply cannot compare our batsmen to those of other teams. They are well ahead.

True. Hoping for a Kohli to come out from Pakistan is like wishing for a miracle. It's just not going to happen.

 

[Slog]

True. Would have been fishing outside the off-stump like the ATG if he would have played in this series.

thats why Kohli will still be an ATG despite failures when ball moves however could be considered a rung below Smith, Williamson, Root like YK is considered a rung below Sanga, sachin, Ponting

 

[Buffet]

I recon , Kohli has made some progress to close the gap here. If Kohli can score in Eng then likes of Ali and Shafiq may not have much lead and probably Kohli may even be rated ahead by posters who don't rate him ahead yet.

 

[Bewal Express]

Kohli is a brilliant player, the other 2 are good solid players.

 

[Sadevdesai]

I have seen in such comparison threads that, whenever an Indian does well. we immediately compare him against couple of our players, with the express purpose of bringing the Indian ..... Down !!!! Why so bitter ??? He did well for his Team, and we should appreciate that. I knew that, before even reading the full thread, somebody will say that both of our guys are better than Kohli .... and sure enough, it is there .... somewhere. Not mature. There is no real way to compare two batsmen. Conditions they play in is vastly different.... opposition they play against is not same .... luck factor is huge. So we should layoff such comparisons .... just enjoy the performance.

 

[Ahson8]

Kohli always had the higher ceiling. It was a matter of time before he made it count in tests.